Barliman's Chat A couple of weekends ago, we dedicated an entire, spoiler-filled session to exploring the new character Tauriel, the Silvan captain of guards that Jackson, Boyens and Walsh are introducing into their adaptation of The Hobbit. .

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 22 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing the Desolation of Smaug trailer.

Session Start: Sun Jun 09 07:35:39 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Tauriel, captain of guards. | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –]’
[Demosthenes] Okay! I think we have a nice-sized group of folks now. Shall we start our topic for the week?
[Elemmire] soooo…..
[Demosthenes] I’ll open with the obvious question. What did people think of the still image that EW posted up?
[Demosthenes] instant reactions.
[Raurenkili] WOW, more people than I’ve EVER seen in here
[Jenniearcheo] She looked like a girlie Robin Hood
[ChristineGolden] hideous
[Demosthenes] (we’ll get to the plot stuff later)
[flameofudun] i liked it.
[sauronswife] Can I have a description of the image?
[Phil-gaming] ok sorry
[Pete_R] with the bow and arrow? It was okay, I guess Didn’t grab me totally
[Demosthenes] sauronswife: i can link it.
[Erestel] I don’t think I’ve seen the image.
[Elemmire] she looks kinda elf-ish
[Elemmire] i guess
[lunarising] it was ok – the red hair seems odd
[Goldberry] Red hair?!?! 😉
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Well.. although I never played it (only watched friends): Legend of Selda
[Demosthenes] image here. warning for spoilers but if you’re worried about spoilers why are you here?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, red hair.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *Zelda
[miriel] she has red hair, whyyyyy
[sauronswife] I still need the text description to have the shapes in the image make sense.
[Phil-gaming] exactly why does an elf have red hair
[Elfriend] Dems, I already know Tauriel eats some key lime pie.
[Raurenkili] woodland color?
[ChristineGolden] Just one more deviation from canon in a long, long line.
[Elemmire] hmm, yeah, kinda like Zelda
[flameofudun] im wondering if it is an actual still from the movie or just a poster type thing
[Erestel] Looks alright.
[lunarising] is there some dwarf blood in her lineage? lol
[Linkdreams] It’s beautiful…
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure it’s really just chestnut brown
[Raurenkili] yeah
[ChristineGolden] No, red, Raurenkili. RED.
[Pete_R] Red hair because Orly had it in his contract that he would be the only hort blond elf. Well, him and his daddy
[Elemmire] not sure about the red hair
[Vince] I thought Legend of Zelda too. She looks like a female Link who is the main character in that video game
[Erestel] Elves can have red hair! Several sons of Feanor were red-headed.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] but even Zelda is blond^^
[Undomiel] She looks beautiful. Remember that it will look different on the actual movie green and it is probably just a raw set photo.
[miriel] it would have been nice with brown, but I guess they fear it would look too much like the elves we have seen in Rivendell
[Eruanna] Sometimes hair seems more red in the sun
[ChristineGolden] Check your canon, Erestel.
[Demosthenes] sauronswife: ummm, she has red hair, a green vest with a lace front, over a green dresslike affair and brown/red leather boots.
[ChristineGolden] There’s no way that a silvan elf inherited red hair.
[Puma] red was rare in elves..
[Raurenkili] yes
[flameofudun] i like the red. throwback to the seven sons of feanor. forget which one
[Elemmire] hi puma
[lunarising] maybe they were just trying to set her apart from the royals Thranduil and Legolas?
[sauronswife] Maedhros.
[Demosthenes] the bow is recurve and it has an /armour-piercing/ arrow knocked to it.
[Vince] Hey Puma
[Puma] gday Elemire
[sauronswife] Thank you Dem.
[Jenniearcheo] Is anybody with me on the Robin Hood thing?
[ChristineGolden] It existed in only one family, all of whom died without heirs.
[Elemmire] yup jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: yes, i get that too.
[lunarising] I am Jenniearcheo
[Goldberry] Me, jennie
[Erestel] I agree. She does look very Robin Hood-esque.
[AbiLuv] The red hair gives her distinction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Jen, as in Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
[Smaug] maybe red hair suits her personality best ? Evangeline said Tauriel isn’t like most elves
[sauronswife] Except Curufin, but his heir was killed so yes…you could say that.
[Puma] well..not actually Christine
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] perhaps its because we already have so prominent elves with blond (legolas, galadriel, thranduil) and dark (elrond, arwen) hair?
[lunarising] lol ChristineGolden
[Elemmire] hmmm maybe
[ChristineGolden] So what, AbiLuv? It’s a violation of Tolkien and for no good reason.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m fascinated that Chris and Puma are going to get into it over a discussion about a made-up character.
[lunarising] they could have made it dark blond to light brown
[AbiLuv] It’s a movie. they need distinction
[Puma] maglor still wanders the shores of middle the line of feanor is alive
[Demosthenes] I’m sure they shall be very nice about it 🙂
[ChristineGolden] No exactly what, Puma?
[lunarising] and still been within canon
* sauronswife facewalls.
[sauronswife] How did I FORGET about Maglor. *sob*
[Puma] we have no clue about hair color of the nandor
[flameofudun] agreed with abi. and hair colour is not a deviation from canon
[Eruanna] Is it ever actually specifically said elves cannot have red hair?
[Smaug] I love the fact that there are new stuff in the movies !
* AbiLuv patpats sauronswife
* sauronswife nods to Puma.
[Pete_R] there, there, sauronswife
[flameofudun] agreed, smaug
[Puma] aka.silvan elves
[Demosthenes] As i noted in the post, i think the red hair is overblown … but I think it could be the sunlight.
[AbiLuv] yeah
[miriel] possibly, it looked darker in production videos
[ChristineGolden] Three of Feanor’s sons had red hair that they supposedly inherited from their mother who stayed in Valinor. None of those three sons left heirs. So where did the always-enchanting Tauriel get hers?
[Phil] i don’t know
[Erestel] Her hair looks darker in other images,
[Demosthenes] Also, does everyone remember the fuss over the very first official still of Thorin Oakenshield?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] back to the question: my first reaction was: finally something new about DOS… it was very silent the last months
* Elemmire thinks there should be two movies, one with all the extra stuff and one just for hardcore fans with nothing added
[miriel] the klingon fuss? yes.
[Demosthenes] “omg he’s a klingon”
[Raurenkili] YES!
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Phil] it just looks very strange that an elf should have that kind of reddish color
[Demosthenes] Yes, exactly. could this be the same thing?
[Puma] you are talking noldor.nothing to do with silvan
[miriel] poooossibly
[Raurenkili] yes
[ChristineGolden] It is specified, Eruanna, that only one family had red hair, the family of Feanor’s second wife.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] mae govannen, all!
[Elemmire] hi darkover
[Raurenkili] mae govannen
[Erestel] Nerdanel can’t have been the only red-headed elf in existence. I don’t remember what hair colors were prominent in Silvan elves, but I don’t remember red hair being strictly impossible.
[Darkover] howdy1
[Darkover] !
[Goldberry] Hi darkover
[lunarising] hi Darkover
[miriel] Darkover 🙂
[Elfriend] I blame the Elf shampoo.
[Puma] its specified for the noldor Chrsitine
[ChristineGolden] It’s in Vol 12 of HOME.
[sauronswife] Feanor had only one wife…..
[Birdsong] mae yo all
[AbiLuv] lol Elfriend
[Elemmire] lol elfriend
[Puma] and that reference was for the noldor.not all elves
[mib_r03mq5] It is not her hair colour that worries me. A shadow and a threat have been growing in my mind.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Elfriend
[Darkover] I thought the family of Feanor’s second wife were known for their blonde hair
[Puma] thats finwes
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, Erestel, who where the others?
[Darkover] not that I object to red, which is cool
[Pete_R] hi, Birdsong
[Raurenkili] common colors dark black, dark browns and light blondes
[sauronswife] Thank you Puma.
[Linkdreams] Personally, I don’t think the red hair would be so bad if it was a little darker/ auburn.
[flameofudun] yup i think thats finwes
[Raurenkili] for all Elves
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I looked it up and tracked it down.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure it will be on screen, Linkdreams
[Smaug] maybe her hair won’t look as red as they do in the picture, that’s because of the sunlight
[Elemmire] i’ve just noticed, this is a really popular HOF…
[Darkover] ok, thank you, Chris and Puma
[sauronswife] I have to agree Mahtan’s family can’t be the ONLY redheads….
[Amy] I don’t see how red hair could have been impossible. Rare, maybe. But not impossible. So why shouldn’t she have it?
[lunarising] i’m sticking with my dwarf theory 😀
[AbiLuv] Tauriel is a big topic
[Darkover] Probably because everyone wants to discuss Tauriel
[ElvenPrincess] I agree with Amy..
[flameofudun] yeah its not polished up yet
[AbiLuv] FFN has a whole huge forum on her
[Elemmire] yup
[Raurenkili] Noldor were typically dark haired, except Finwe’s line
[Puma] except finarfins line
[Darkover] Well, redheads are comparatively rare, but cool, and why shouldn’t some elves have red hair?
[Erestel] There could be hundreds of other red-headed elves created at Cuivienen for all we know.
[Pete_R] Sticking with what, lunarising, duct tape, Krazy Glue, velcro…
[Raurenkili] yes, puma thanks 4 correction
[chrysophylax] (hi everybody)
[Raurenkili] hi
[Puma] gday dives
[Darkover] hi, chrysophylax
[ChristineGolden] I’m sticking with canon, Amy; Tolkien only mentioned one family of redheads and he was specific about it.
[Linkdreams] I like my fantasy women in flowing apparel and wielding bows.
* Elemmire makes note to self to finish Silmarillion so can sound as knowledgable as everyone else…
[Raurenkili] yeah lol
[Darkover] maybe only one family of redhaired Elves in the histories, Chris
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I’m sure that there will be an explanation why she looks so different
[Goldberry] Lol
[Puma] again.that only refers to noldor
[Raurenkili] yes
[Smaug] yeah I agree, we’ve got speculations to make about the new stuff is the movies, thus Tauriel is an interesting subject, everyone want to discuss her
[Demosthenes] Does chestnut count as red?
[mib_vngh0v] maybe she dyed it
[Raurenkili] lol I keep sain yes
[Raurenkili] reddish
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and we’re talking about a work of fiction, not a real history. So, if Tolkien didn’t write about it, it didn’t happen.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t care what color her hair is. I want her and Legolas to tend bar at Thranduil’s parties, doing fancy bartender tricks, flipping bottle of Dorwinion .. .
[Elemmire] nope demos
[Darkover] I mean, Tolkien implies at times that there are a lot of things that don’t get mentioned, or don’t get mentioned at that time. Doesn’t mean such things weren’t occurring elsewhere.
[Pete_R] And hobbits were supposed to be round, but they’re not in the films. Hair color is not critical, *especially* in a made-up character..
[Linkdreams] I’m all for canon in a movie Christine, as long as it looks good onscreen.
[Vince] Maybe Taruiel just dyes her hair
[Amy] What would an elf dye her hair with? :p
[Elfriend] Costuming must be proud, all this discussion about the characters hair : )
[Raurenkili] Elves weren’t known to dye their hair
[brennil] plants?
[Demosthenes] jennie: well, Tolkien does write of the captain of guards getting drunk in the hobbit. So we may just see something like that.
[Jenniearcheo] Magic, Amy
[flameofudun] my thoughts as well
[ChristineGolden] Maybe Jackson just thought making her a redhead would make her seem hotter to those who care about such things.
[Goldberry] Beetroot?
[Elemmire] lol elfriend
[chrysophylax] Tauriel is a Grey Elf, but that has nothing to do with hair color
[Jenniearcheo] I’m worried that PJ’s going to leave the party aspect out
[Goldberry] For dye:p
[miriel] maybe they want that oscar for hair and makeup very badly?
[Puma] the butler galion got drunk
[Jenniearcheo] I mean, I’m not actually going so far as to require a disco ball . . .
[Demosthenes] didn’t they both get drunk?
[Amy] Oh. haha
[Smaug] am I the only one who like her hair color ?
[gstommylee] Perhaps the red hair was to make it easy for us to spot her out in battle
[flameofudun] yup
[Linkdreams] Like I said, that fiery red just doesn’t do a lot for me personally…
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] would it be legal for Legolas to have a relationship with her? because she is so much younger than him
[Darkover] I like her hair color. I used to be a redhead myself
[Puma] and Tauriel is not a grey elf.sindar…..she is nandor..silvan
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie, the writers invented themselves into a corner with the Leggy-Gimli drinking contest
[flameofudun] and to distinguish her from the rest
[ChristineGolden] Then they should elevate Bob Buck to chief of costuming and makeup and dump what’s her name.
[gstommylee] if you have 15 elves fighting orcs with similar hair color how would we know which one was her
[Jenniearcheo] They did. The Tolkien Professor is of the opinion that . . . as Pete says
[Linkdreams] It does kinda make the photo pop though.
[Elemmire] true pete
[ElvenPrincess] The biggest problem I have with Tauriel is her occupation…would be more fun if she was more girly. :p but honestly I’m pretty sure it’l turn out well in the end.
[AbiLuv] Smaug: I do like the colour. Just not sure I like the character
[Darkover] She looked like a female
[Darkover] Robin Hood to me
[Erestel] I dunno, LieutenantOfDolGuldur, but thankfully PJ confirmed that Legolas and Tauriel won’t be in any romantic relationship.
[Elemmire] yeah, most of us think that darkover
[Puma] jrr said.female elves are just as capable as being warriors as male elves
[Jenniearcheo] But the other school of thought is that since Legolas was weaned on high-octane Dorwinion wine from a pup, he’s just got a high tolerance and weak human beer wouldn’t affect him much
[chrysophylax] dear goodness, not the dreaded female Robin Hood
[ChristineGolden] No, the chosen one seems to be Kili.
[Smaug] but with Kili
[Darkover] Frankly, I wish Tauriel, as a totally non-canon character, weren’t in the movie at all. But since she is, I have no problem with her being a redhead
[brennil] she better be a well-developed character…
[Elfriend] @.@ Kili
[Amy] Well Arwen was kinda girly more girly. I like the fact that she’s a tough warrior elf.
[flameofudun] i believ u but where did he say that Puma
[Darkover] and I hope her character will add more to the movie, than detract from it
[Jenniearcheo] Me too, Amy
[ChristineGolden] I have a problem with everything about her, Darkover.
[Darkover] brb, all
[Linkdreams] Shouldn’t a Captian be wearing some sort of armour besides a tunic? I mean I know it works for Link but these battles will likely be on a more grand scale.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring
[Elemmire] yeah
[chrysophylax] What non-canon characters, aside the orc put on a pedestal, were in the LOTR movies?
[flameofudun] oh ok
[Raurenkili] Sebastian 😀
[Amy] I think PJ knows what he’s doing.
[Erestel] Faramir’s second-in-command at Osgiliath was a movie-only character, chrysophylax.
[miriel] the chosen one was harry potter, and just like harry potter has nothing to do in lotr I really really hope there won’t be any “chosen ones” or loveaffairs there
[Elfriend] Long as she doesn’t call anyone ‘Jack’ it should all be ok.
[Puma] yikes.big crowd tonight
[Demosthenes] Linkdreams: not sure one would always wear armour. also, legolas actually didn’t have armour in LOTR.
[sunshower] ha! Elfriend
[Jenniearcheo] I think she’ll have a thing for Legolas, and Kili will have a thing for her. Nothing will be requited, and the dwarves will tease Kili over it
[ElvenPrincess] Yes. I agree with Amy. PJ knows what he’s doing, so it’s all good. 🙂
[flameofudun] yes madril was added in too
[Smaug] Don’t you think Tauriel is likely to die in the Battle of Five Armies ? If she’s in love with Kili…
[ChristineGolden] I do, too, Amy, he’s deliberately adding a ‘hot elven warrior babe’ to up his box office.
[Demosthenes] the only one to wear armour in LOTR was gimli. his coat of rings.
[mib_vngh0v] chrysophylax what orc do you mean
[Pete_R] As I mentuoned on Tuesday–Te Tolkien Professor mntioned that Arwen is just about the soitting image of Luthien, and since Luthien was a serious warrior, it wouldn;t have been that nuts to have Arwen be tough, too. In theory, anyways
[Puma] pj has no idea what he’sdoing
[Elemmire] and frodo – mithril
[Elemmire] demos
[Pete_R] spitting image
[Linkdreams] True. I love my fantasy characters in robes, tunic, at the most leather armor.
[gstommylee] isn’t legolas more like a ranger then a warrior compared to other elves
[Amy] PJ doesn’t do the stuff he does to “up his box office”. He does it for the story.
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: ah yes. but that was secret. 🙂
[ChristineGolden] Bull.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Legolas did wear an armour at the battle of helms deep
[Elemmire] fair point
[Raurenkili] I agree, PJ is clueless
[chrysophylax] you know, like the fungus-face guy who leads the assault against Gondor, mib_vngh0v
[ChristineGolden] Or are you claiming that Jackson is a better writer than Tolkien, Amy?
[Elfriend] Raurenkili – 12 Oscars clueless
[mib_vngh0v] chrysophylax Gothmog?
[Linkdreams] hey guys check out my pinterest board sometime…
[Puma] pj is purely box office…he writes fan fic.good fanfic…he does not do jrr
[flameofudun] she wont be in love with kili. evengeline lily hinted that she would have a bit of a romance with legolas because thranduil thinks so highly of her legolas will go for her
[Raurenkili] lol elffriend
[ChristineGolden] five stars, Puma.
[chrysophylax] I’m just trying to think of any characters that we could compare Tauriel with
[Erestel] Gothmog was in the books, chrysophylax, but he was only mentioned once.
[brennil] Puma, are you a purist?
[Raurenkili] yes
[flameofudun] and not specified to be an orc
[chrysophylax] puma is the purest of pureness
[Elfriend] I’m going into this as I went into the last one, for fun.
[Amy] No! Not at all. But I’m saying he knows the story and is a big fan himself, and wants to do them justice. Anything he adds will not detract from the story. he has good intentions and will see it through in a good way.
[Puma] moi.a purist?
[Erestel] Lurtz, however, was movie-only.
[Jenniearcheo] Puma and ChristineGolden both are. In fact, I’m not sure why they’re here today
[sunshower] FIGWIT, chrysophylax?
[Elemmire] Lurtz isn’t kinda specifically mentioned in the books…i think..its a long time since i read them
[Raurenkili] I am too!!!!!!!
[Elemmire] yep
[Raurenkili] I’m a Purist
[Raurenkili] 😀
[sauronswife] Hahaha Figwit.
[chrysophylax] whatever you just said went over my head, sunshower 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] Well, you ladies can share the bucket of mud you’re slinging
[Pete_R] Same here, Elfriend. I refuse to allow my purist tendencies to ruin my enjoyment f the films
[Raurenkili] me’n Puma and Christine
[Elemmire] uh…sorry, what was the question
[ChristineGolden] Why not, Jennie?
[Elfriend] It’s still interesting to me how one character – which I’m not thrilled with in all honesty – can overshadow how close these films came to not being made 🙂
[Raurenkili] what was the deal with Figwit?
[brennil] I’ve managed to seperate book and movie. Movie is just entertainment
[Erestel] Unless I’m mistaken, Figwit is the fan-name of Lindir, a character from the books.
[sauronswife] Good way of looking at it brennil…
[flameofudun] his name is lindir now, dont u forget
[Puma] in principle i have no problem with Tauriel……..there were elves like her
[chrysophylax] movie is an augmentation for me. I appreciate any well-intended visualization of my favorite books.
[Jenniearcheo] Far be it from me to discourage your pleasure. Go ahead and fling.
[Amy] Is Lindir in the books?
[AbiLuv] lol
[ChristineGolden] female warriors, Puma?
[ChristineGolden] female elven warriors?
[Goldberry] I liked figwit better:p
[chrysophylax] Lindir I believe is mentioned
[Pete_R] Is Lindir *supposed* to be the same character as Figwit?
[Puma] yes.lindhir is in lotr.not the hobbit
[Raurenkili] ABILUV Lindir is in the books!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] no
[sunshower] LOL– chrysophylax–the un-named elf in LotR, later noted as figwit, a noncanon character?
[chrysophylax] but no death scene at Helm’s Deeps
[Erestel] Yes, Amy. He was a good friend of Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell after he left Bag End for good.
[flameofudun] hes definetley not in the hobbit
[chrysophylax] subtract that s
[Jenniearcheo] Figwit was just a fan name for the nameless elf he played in FOTR
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] actually Lurtz might be the perfect LOTR-equal to Tauriel
[chrysophylax] in fact, there were no elves at Helm’s Deep
[Amy] Oh wow. I need to re-read.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, but I still wonder of he is supposed to be the same person
[flameofudun] i belive u are thinking of haldir,
[Erestel] Let’s hope so, LieutenantOfDolGuldur. Except one is for fanservice, and the other for plot convenience.
[Jenniearcheo] Fun LOTR audiobook, Amy:
[flameofudun] i belive he is. both identical, both from rivendell
[Symbelmine] [flameofudun] Lindir isn´t in The Hobbit book but since he is a Rivendell elf it makes sense he appeared there in the movie.
[chrysophylax] Do we think Tauriel will distract from the story, or will there be enough in the upcoming 6 – 7 hours of movie left to accommodate her?
[Raurenkili] Puma, Lindir was in TH and LOTR remember, “don’t let Bilbo get stuck in the keyhole” and some Elves have over merry tongues Lindir?
[brennil] I don’t get where Figwit came from in the first place. Silly, if you ask me.
[Smaug] maybe the interview hinted that Thranduil would like her to have a romance with Legolas ? But she won’t really have one, and she’ll have a romance with Kili instead ?
[flameofudun] yup i agree symbelmine
[Amy] Oh cool, thanks Jennie 🙂
[Demosthenes] I’d like to throw out something for speculation. Evangeline Lilly in mentioning that Tauriel was a silvan elf said this: “She sort of goes against the social order of the elves a little bit.” And I wondered whether that would mean she would be a rebel of sorts…
[ChristineGolden] I think she will be a terrible distraction and result in some possible other major changes later.
[Demosthenes] Do others agree?
[Puma] time for the ponies…….bbiab
[chrysophylax] sounds like Legolas is going to pull the “I see you as a sister” bit
[Jenniearcheo] np
[gstommylee] imo its hard to enjoy a movie if its being picked apart. That’s why i tend to watch movies as is on the first view then look at specifics of what I don’t like in the second viewing.
[chrysophylax] what social order of elves are we imagining here?
[Raurenkili] lol
[brennil] in this 6-7 hrs of movie, does BoFA consist entirely of battles? if so…
[ChristineGolden] I think it was an allusion to her ‘involvement’ with Kili.
[Jenniearcheo] Following Thranduil’s orders RE: dwarf imprisonment?
[chrysophylax] Legolas was a bit of a “rogue” elf in his way – you just don’t see elves gallavanting around like he did
[Erestel] I’m going to give Tauriel the benefit of the doubt for now. Let’s hope she’ll do nothing to alter the plot significantly.
[Demosthenes] chrysophylax: well, you could say the one where Vanyar ] Noldir ] Sindar ] Silvan
[Jenniearcheo] There’s speculation that she’ll have something to do with their escape
[gstommylee] 6-7 hours?
[Demosthenes] That is kinda how i interprted it.
[Pete_R] It seems that the elven rebels I can think of were pretty much evil, Dems–the sons pf Feanor, etc
[ChristineGolden] $5 says Kili dies because of Tauriel.
[Raurenkili] what?
* AbiLuv isn’t an Elf person anyway
* sauronswife loves Elves.
* Raurenkili knows
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] in the book there was no Uruk before Ugluk named and in FOTR we’ve got Lurtz with a bunch of scenes. I think it will be the same with Tolkiens Elves and Tauriel being a FACE to them… although Legolas would’ve been enough
[brennil] 2 1/2, maybe 3 hours each
[Demosthenes] Or, that she is driven more by her own internal sense of ethics rather than blind loyalty.
[Symbelmine] My speculation is that she will have some spot for Kili therefore she will help dwarves to escape 🙁
[Erestel] I really hope that’s where we’re wrong, Jenniearcheo. The escape should be Bilbo proving his wit and worth.
[Demosthenes] that’s another interpretation that’s possible.
[chrysophylax] Kili dies because Thorin’s his uncle and dies defending him NOT for an elf…if this happens, PJ’s gonna get it
[sauronswife] And agreed about rebellion being a Noldor/Feanor thing.
* Raurenkili loves Elves, especially Noldor
[Jenniearcheo] Possibly the other way around, ChristineGolden. I’m sure she’ll perish in the battle. For one reason or another
* Raurenkili isn’t a BIG fan of Silvan Elves
* sauronswife high fives Raurenkili.
[Vince] Tauriel kills Kili?
[Amy] I forgot Kili was gonna die 🙁
[ChristineGolden] She’ll be at the BoFA since she’s so close to Thrandruil (Lilly’s words) and Kili will take the blow for her.
[sunshower] wonder if Gloin ever told Gimli about this she-elf person?
[sunshower] 😉
[Linkdreams] Possibly, but I think Tolkien movie characters pull the just friends relationship off really well.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I know canon, but when has that stopped PJ?
[Smaug] But maybe Tauriel & Kili will die side by side or something like that ?
[chrysophylax] Tauriel = Arwen + Eowyn?
[Vince] I wonder if Tauriel will die
[Erestel] Kili dies for Thorin. If PJ has the balls to change that, then he’s dead to me.
[flameofudun] christinegolden did lily confirm that she would be at the battle of five armies
[sauronswife] Haha, maybe chrysophylax!
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I thought about that too [Smaug] yes
[serinde] interesting as a combination of arwen & Eowyn
[Linkdreams] Rebel tendencies can be veeery interesting…
[ChristineGolden] In each other’s arms, exchanging loving looks, Smaug? It just gets better and better.
[Raurenkili] me too Erestel (earlier)
[serinde] seems to me the sylvan elves are those who never headed west; but they seem to be ruled by the Lighter elves
[ChristineGolden] Tauriel is the captain of Thrandruil’s guard. Of course, she would be leading his troops at BoFA.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah
[Demosthenes] serinde: that’s basically the case.
[Vince] Is Taruiel a sadist? she seems to enjoy torturing orcs
[Jenniearcheo] But they know how to party, serinde
[chrysophylax] She’s a captain!!!???
[Amy] Does Kili die in the BoFA?
[ChristineGolden] Yep.
[chrysophylax] Yes, Amy
[Raurenkili] yes
[brennil] I think the issue is PJ got concerned about money and made the movie too long…so too much screen time to fill.
[Demosthenes] vince: the “ruthless killer” thing?
[gstommylee] amy in book yes
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I just realized that the BoFA could be the “red wedding” of middle-earth… well at least for some fans 😉
* chrysophylax sniffs sadly
[Erestel] Sadly yes, Amy. Fili too.
[sauronswife] Vince, yeah that line kinda got me too as odd.
[serinde] well, all elves know how to party
[Smaug] well that’s likely if she has a romance with Kili and if Kili dies…
[Amy] So the 3rd movie. Well at least he won’t be gone in the second
[Raurenkili] yeah
[ChristineGolden] I’d call it “jumping the shark,” LieutenantOfDolGuldur.
* sauronswife makes a face. (redwedding)
[gstommylee] brennil i disagree
[Jenniearcheo] In the book, Fili, Kili, and Thorin are the only known and named characters to die in the battle. I’m guessing PJ will kill the not-needed-later Tauriel off, too
[Demosthenes] One can be a “ruthless killer” and not a butcher. well, i would say so anyhow.
[mib_vngh0v] I dont understand all the PJ bashing, the films are an adaptation of Tolkien’s books they are according to Thomas Leitch an “adjustment” not a literal or “celebratory” adaptation
[Jenniearcheo] lol LieutenantOfDolGuldur
[gstommylee] we don’t even know what the full story script would be for the 3
[gstommylee] compared to if it was just 2
[serinde] i’m guessing that Tauriel doesn’t die
[Symbelmine] I hope Kili won´t die trying to save Tauriel.
[ChristineGolden] Jackson has gone far beyond ‘artistic adaptation,’ mib_vngh0v.
[Raurenkili] YEAH
[Demosthenes] serinde: ooh, why? a lot of folk reckon she will get toasted.
[brennil] oh, I guess. Still think it’s pushing it, gstommylee
[ChristineGolden] That’s exactly what I think will happen, Symbelmine.
[Raurenkili] OH NO
[serinde] just to have someone mourning for Kili forever …
[mib_vngh0v] it is not artistic adaptation though, he has rendered the text more suitable for filming, and what the films purposes are, to entertain
[Erestel] Considering Azog’s obsession with severed heads, I’m placing my money on Kili’s death being decapitation.
[Jenniearcheo] I think her death change the way we look at Legolas in LOTR. It will inform his mistrust of the dwarves at the Council. Which might be weird.
[gstommylee] and note what may be simple paragraph in a book could take 15-30mins to explain in a movie
[Elemmire] Sorry, I’m back. What are we talking about?
[Amy] It would be insane if they had a romance between an elf and a dwarf…
[Smaug] well that could be Tauriel dying for Kili and Kili dying for Thorin
[ChristineGolden] Why bother spending all that time creating “the love that dare not be named,” then do nothing with it?
[Vince] theys ay she’s a ruthless killer and that clip from the Blu-ray sneak peak shows her interrogating an orc with glee
[Raurenkili] yeah
[Jenniearcheo] That’s what I think, Smaug
[Raurenkili] not good
[Pete_R] Dunno about that, Erestel, on;y because I dont recall any good guy in PJ’s films being decapitated. He seems to save that for the baddies.
[Demosthenes] A point of pronunciation, is it Toweriel … following the rule of the pronunciation of Sauron?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] It will be the first time that three fan favorite characters from middle-earth will die.. so it will be a huge shock for the unknown audience.. but wasn’t TAURIEL the topic? 😀
[sauronswife] I got Noldor vibes off that Tauriel interrogation clip…
[Vince] she says something like, “you like blood?! you like death and killing?! Well Ill gladly give it to you!” or something
[gstommylee] brennil: we don’t even know how long the whole smaug fight would be
[Jenniearcheo] I really don’t think it’ll be a “romance.” I think it will be a Gimli [3 Galadriel kind of thing
[Raurenkili] yeah
[sauronswife] Yes, Demosthenes.
[flameofudun] hey guys lindir is indeed from fellowship of the ring, in the many meetings chapter. his role is expanded int the AUJ and ROTK movies, though, obviously
[Pete_R] yes, Dems, Towriel seems right
[sauronswife] Tauriel like Sauron.
[Raurenkili] she is kindof a bad example
[Elemmire] yeah demos
[AbiLuv] brb
[Demosthenes] Linguistics lesson for the morning.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] well I’m from Germany so it’s rather obvious to me how to pronounce it 😀
[Amy] Hmm. That makes more sense.
[ChristineGolden] Tauriel doesn’t have the necessary requirements to be the object of courtly love, Jennie.
[Vince] the worst part is the people who only see the movies and don’t read the books who will think Taruiel is a Tolkien invented character in the Hobbit lol
[Raurenkili] TOAR-EE-el
[Jenniearcheo] We don’t really know that
[Pete_R] LieutenantOfDolGuldur, here in New York we would pronounce it TAW-ree-ell. 🙂
[Raurenkili] yeah
[Raurenkili] I hate that
* sauronswife nods to Vince and shudders.
[Amy] Vince, yes that will suck.
[Elfriend] Nah
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think it makes any difference how it’s pronounced, because it’s not a canon character. So whatever
* Goldberry nods
[Raurenkili] Like, for example faramirs character getting ruined in lotr
[mib_vngh0v] Vince no they won’t enough chatter about it that they know she is made up
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Pete_R thanks for the lesson
[serinde] who can be bothered with people who don’t bother to read the books
[Elemmire] uh…me…
[brennil] agreed Raurenkili
[serinde] sorry
[Vince] I wonder how big her part will be
[Elemmire] no one i know has read them
[Demosthenes] Nuh-uh. Be nice!
[Elemmire] but im trying to persuade them…
[sauronswife] And me.. as I hope to get everyone TO read them eventually. [33
[Vince] maybe she won’t be a likeable character? They describe her as a ruthless character
[Vince] a ruthless killer
[Amy] I always tend to watch the movie first… and then I fall in love with it and I HAVE to read the books.
[Pete_R] I have a *lot* less problem with Tauriel as a character (red hair and all) than I do with Azog still being alive…
[sauronswife] Tha’ts an interesting angle I never thought of, Vince.
[Demosthenes] vince: that /would/ be unusual.
[Elemmire] hmm
[serinde] Legolas was ‘ruthless’ with those short swords of his
[Erestel] I agree, Pete_R.
[Demosthenes] I think it unlikely. But it would be different.
[Vince] the Mirkwood elves are supposed to be a threat
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I wonder why she’s interrogating that poor orc. whats her goal?
[Elemmire] yeah pete
[Vince] in the narrative of the Hobbit
[Smaug] I think the first Hobbit film was quite faithfull to the book, and there is also new plots, which is awesome 🙂
[Demosthenes] But if so, why would thranduil have a soft spot for her?
[Jenniearcheo] She’s actually a serial killer
[flameofudun] agreed smaug
[Amy] I think we’ll like her.
[Raurenkili] I was horrified that Azog was brought to life
[sauronswife] Haha Jenniearcheo!
[Vince] Taruiel is so evil she makes us feel bad for an ORC 😛
[Demosthenes] That being said, i cannot currently imagine Thranduil having a soft spot for anyone.
[Elfriend] Perhaps Tauriel is an inspiration for Legolas 🙂
[Elemmire] well, in the book of the hobbit, thranduil isnt exactly all fluffy bunnies
[Amy] Azog is in the appendices, right? isn’t he only mentioned for like one line in the book
[Raurenkili] I couldn’t believe PJ had the nerve
[ChristineGolden] I would agree with that, Pete, except I don’t know what Jackson plans to do with Tauriel. If it ends with some love scene on the battlefield outside Erebor, well…
[flameofudun] but legolas is older by 1200 years or so
[Erestel] Yes, Amy.
[Darkover] I’m back at last. Sorry
* Raurenkili eats Wafles
[sauronswife] Welcome back Darkover.
[Raurenkili] *Waffles
[Amy] Okay. I need to go read the appendices. I didn’t know he had died…
[ChristineGolden] I have no idea, Demosthenes. It’s something Lilly said in an interview.
[Darkover] thank you, sauronswife
[Demeter07] I wonder if the orc she is interrogating is Bolg??
[Amy] I didn’t know much about him at all really.
[serinde] aren’t Thranduil & Legolas of a different ‘kind’ of elf
[Pete_R] We’re sorry you’re back, too, Darkover. 😉
[gstommylee] the whole azog being a live is just a flaw with how movies tend to be done imo
[Pete_R] joking!!!
* Elemmire corrects raurenkili and gives waffles instead
[flameofudun] didnt look like him
[ChristineGolden] wb, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i figured something a bit R&J-ish. Tragic star-crossed, (platonic?) love.
[Jenniearcheo] Pete, did the Digest ladies liken Thranduil to the Goblin King from Labrynth?
[Vince] the thing that annoys me is that just because she’s a female character, there has to be a love story angle. They even made Galadriel kinda flirty with Gandalf for godsakkes
[Darkover] aww, Pete_R, I know you love me 🙂
[Goldberry] Are there any ruthless killer female-elves in tolkien?
[Elemmire] hi again darkover
[ChristineGolden] Oh, God, gmta, Demosthenes; I thought the same thing.
[Pete_R] with an undying passion and stuff, Darkover :-*
[Amy] I don’t think Galadriel was being flirty with Gandalf…
* Raurenkili already corrected herself but thanks Elemmire anyway
[brennil] Same here, Vince
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] no it’s not Bolg. he looked smaller and there was no bear claw on his shoulder Demeter07
[serinde] so for Thranduil to have a soft spot ? perhaps she is an orphan … her parents killed by orcs
[gstommylee] vince isn’t there a romance moment in movies?
* DalekJim (Mibbit@7913B046.FBA1C453.76B3B01C.IP) has joined #thehalloffire
[Darkover] Natch, Pete 😉
[Demosthenes] That’s another point: I got the impression from what Turner hinted … that it was a bit unrequited?
[Amy] I think it just looked that way in the trailer.
[Demosthenes] That’s assuming we are on the right track.
[ChristineGolden] Well, I wouldn’t have acted like that with another man when I was married, amy.
[Jenniearcheo] Pete_R, did the Digest ladies liken Thranduil to the Goblin King from Labrynth?
[Darkover] Unrequited by Tauriel, or by the other person?
[Elemmire] that annoyed me vince-in the trailer for AUJ if you dont know whats happening, they look like theyre flirting
[sauronswife] Alas no ruthless killer fem elves, plenty of male ones. *sigh* That would have been awesome *keeps all ruthless killer fem Elves for herself*
[Vince] the Hobbit book does talk about how the Slyvian Elves are a bit more misguided and dangerous than other elves so her being a ruthless killer does kinda fit canon
[Smaug] I don’t think it will end with a love scene, I guess the romance will not be such an important plot
[Elemmire] hopefullly not
[Pete_R] Demz, I get the impression that the romance is supposed to be comic relief, for the most part
[serinde] Goldberry … we don’t know what part Galadriel played in the battle with the Sea-Elves
[Darkover] I don’t believe there were any ruthless female killer Elves in Tolkien. He seemed to have a somewhat idealized view of womanhood.
[Vince] I don’t think Aragorn/Arwen was comic relief
[Darkover] but then again, he was writing fairy tales.
* AbiLuv nods in agreement
[Erestel] Galadriel was in no way “flirty”, Vince. She was merely being comforting to Gandalf in troubling times. She KISSED Frodo, and no one seems to care about that.
[flameofudun] yes that i 1000 percent right vince
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: Hmmm, i would prefer it to not be played for laughs
[Elfriend] The can all do Gangnam style before the end credits as long as I see Smaug – but I tangent.
[gstommylee] Elemmire: thats the problem with trailers its so easy to take things out of context
[Amy] I agree with Erestel.
[Pete_R] Dunno, Jennie–I usually don’t listen to the digests. Maybe I should start
[Amy] She’s an elf. They
[Amy] They’re different than humans.
[Demosthenes] EL’s words: She will definitely have a love story. I can’t give away too much about it. It’s not a huge focus but it is there and it is important and it does drive Tauriel and her story and her actions.”
[Symbelmine] Lilly siad the romance isn´t a big part but it was there and it´s important for her story and affects Tauriel´s acts.
[Vince] Esrestel, I know that but you can’t deny, that it was KINDA suggestive and many people who don’t know Tolkien did think it was kinda romantic
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover. The only elven woman I recall being a fighter was Galadriel during the flight of the Noldor.
[Elemmire] yeah, i had a friend who asked me about that trailer. i had to explain it all…
[Demosthenes] *it’s not a huge focus*
[Darkover] Right, Chris
[Pete_R] Demz, I picture Fili(or is it Kili) getting real moony and sighing every time she asses by–like a teenage crush
[gstommylee] i don’t judge a speific thing in a trailer until i see it in context aka what goes on before that moment and what happens after that moment before juding
[Demosthenes] Are we too worried over a tiny thing?
[Darkover] Maybe the person Tauriel once loved was killed by orcs, and that is what drives her.
[Smaug] I agree symbelmine 🙂
[Amy] Pete, I can definitely see that. haha
[Erestel] I’d say so, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: like elladan and Elrohir?
[brennil] This is spoiling the movie for me 😛 Gotta go, anyway
[Elfriend] Dems – I think so.
[Darkover] Possibly, Demosthenes, but we can’t help but speculate
[Demosthenes] i could see that
[Jenniearcheo] Or Beorn?
[Demosthenes] later brennil!
[ChristineGolden] The character or the romance, Demosthenes?
[Amy] I like that theory Darkover.
[AbiLuv] Pete_R: hopefully Kili’s smarter than that
[Elemmire] hmm demosthenes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: the romance element specifically.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] But there will be one… so if it’s not Legolas.. who else? Thranduil? No. Bilbo? No. Thorin? Never. Kili? Perhaps yes! Or Bard? Demosthenes
[Elfriend] I’ll risk asking, would it make a difference if the new character were male?
[Darkover] Yes, something like that, Demosthenes, although maybe the person killed was Tauriel’s husband or lover, rather than a parent
[gstommylee] the whole fili – Tauriel romance i am going to wait and see the whole thing in context before judging rather it was a good move on PJ part or a bad move
[Pete_R] Christine, don’t forget Luthien. You don’t get defeat Morgoth by being girly.
[Demosthenes] Bard is interesting. He’s an archer. Another meeting of minds?
[Elemmire] hmm
[flameofudun] exactly pete
[Darkover] If Tauriel’s lover was killed by orcs, and that motivates her, we might learn this through flashback
[sauronswife] Yes it would make a HUGE difference if Tauriel was male and that kinda makes me mad..
[chrysophylax] but you do by having feminine wiles, Pete_R !
[Symbelmine] [LieutenantOfDolGuldur] It won´t be Bard. He will be married in the movie.
[serinde] yes, Luthien … who defeated Sauron!
[Amy] Maybe we’ll get more clues when the trailer comse out in a few days.
[AbiLuv] gstommylee: its kili
[Vince] you can be both girly and strong
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was not a female elven warrior serving in her father’s army, Pete. Big difference, fighting to defend yourself and military service.
[gstommylee] whops sorry
[gstommylee] kili
[AbiLuv] 🙂
[Elfriend] Vince – Galadriel
[ChristineGolden] More filler, Darkover?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] And that tells us what? 😉 Symbelmine
[Vince] Taruiel is like a security guard, right?
[Vince] Yeah Elfriend
[mib_vngh0v] it isn’t PJs fault Tolkien didn’t write in enough women into the stories
[gstommylee] but still i’m gonna wait and see both DOS and TABA before juding
[sauronswife] Huan defeated Sauron…
[Pete_R] haha, chrysophylax. Like “Luthien bats her eyelashes, Morgoth swoons?” 😉
[ChristineGolden] No, she is supposedly captain of Thranduil’s guard.
[Darkover] possibly, Chris. I would prefer that to a moony “affair” between her an a dwarf
[gstommylee] on the romance
[serinde] sauronswife … right
[Smaug] I can’t wait for the trailer 🙂
[Vince] She might help to develop Legolas’s character more
[Smaug] I agree vince 🙂
[Vince] I know his relationship with his dad will help
[Pete_R] I see your point in that respect, Christine
[Raurenkili] yea
[flameofudun] me neither smaug does anyone think it is coming june 12th, right
[AbiLuv] I love Leggy – no matter how hard I try to hate him
[Raurenkili] lol
[Darkover] Actually, I would like to see the father-son relationship between Thranduil and Legolas explored at bit
[Smaug] I hope so
[gstommylee] flame the reports state online on the 12 in theaters with man of steel on the 14th
[Puma] jrr did only have a limited number of female elves…..however those ones had great power
[Vince] me too
[Darkover] or even a lot
[Amy] June 12th on Youtube
[Vince] I think they will explore it
[chrysophylax] I feel a Bugs Bunny gag coming on, Pete_R…:)
[Raurenkili] she trys t hate him for the sake of dwarves
[Demosthenes] “Tauriel’s relationship with Legolas is significant. They’ve known each other since they were children, and Legolas’ dad, Thranduil, has a soft spot for Tauriel and sees something very special in her.
[Raurenkili] lol
[Elemmire] yeah, me too darkover
[gstommylee] the question is 2mins 1 sec or 2mins 30 sec trailer
[Vince] I heard somewhere that Legolas will rebel against his father
[serinde] it will be interesting to see Legolas back in his dwarf-distrust mode
[ChristineGolden] mib_vngh0v: who rewrote Tolkien’s story, The Hobbit?
[Darkover] maybe Legolas trained her in the use of the bow
[Demosthenes] vince: speculation?
[Pete_R] But I still say that Luthien was as formidable (sp?) a warrior as anyone, even if she didn’t enlist in the army.
[flameofudun] that would make sense because it releases in the philipines on the 12th
[Darkover] I agree, Pete
[Smaug] I can’t wait to see the father-son relationship too, Darkover ! 🙂
[serinde] I agree too, pete
[Puma] idril was armed and fought
[Darkover] Smaug, 🙂
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but my point is that females did not serve in the elves’ armies.
[Raurenkili] ah, Puma awakes
[sauronswife] I couldn’t remember if Idril or Aredhel or others where armed, thank you Puma.
[Pete_R] haha–yes, chrysophylax., Bugs would have done that bit well. 😀
[Puma] and that is unlnown Christine…..they well might have
[sauronswife] All these different versions… 🙁
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, and if someone tried to come through my door, I’d be armed and fighting, too. Doesn’t mean I’m going into the Marines.
[mib_vngh0v] ChristineGolden PJ also brought more audiences to Tolkien’s original work… 12 million copies were sold in the first LOTR film year of the books
[Darkover] That kind of sums up my attitude as well, Chris!
[Elemmire] yuo
[Puma] even without pj.lotr has never been out of print
[Elemmire] yup eb
[Elemmire] even
[Elemmire] argh…
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I know, mib_vngh0v, PJ milked the Tolkien golden goose for every dollar he could.
[Puma] 1 of biggest sellers of all books in the 20th century
[Darkover] well, Chris, he is in the business to make money. If those movies didn’t make money, they would never be made.
[Puma] but yes.i am sure pj added some new readers
[mib_vngh0v] ChristineGolden Pj doesn’t care about money, he loves the books… you can see that in his interview
[Demosthenes] I think that’s getting a little off-topic.
[flameofudun] so is it confirmed that the trailer is coming on the 12th
[Darkover] The two motives are not necessarily mutually exclusive, mib
[Puma] pj has no clue as to what the books are about
[Symbelmine] [ChristineGolden] I believe that elven maidens didn´t serve in armies but every Mary Sue has to do something what general maidens don´t do.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Darkover. Lots of directors would have loved to do Tolkien, but Zaentz specifically chose Jackson.
[gstommylee] darkover plus doing a book as is into a movie wouldn’t exactly do so good in theaters.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] off topic?
[Puma] pj just sees the books as a starting point for his fantasy
[ChristineGolden] Mary Sue?
* sauronswife sighs.
[Darkover] That’s a bit harsh, IMO, Puma
[Elemmire] don’t even go there christine
[Amy] Agreed.
[Pete_R] Not totally true, . Peter stated that his first puprpose was tp make a movie that people would want to see. Not out pf greed, but because that’s what his obligation to the studio is.
[Smaug] mib_vngh0v I agree, PJ isn’t doing that for money, he loves the books 🙂
[Amy] I will defend PJ to the end.
[flameofudun] i agree as well
[Demosthenes] Hey, the topic is Tauriel. Not the motivations of the studios.
[Smaug] So will I
[ChristineGolden] There are hundreds of classic movies that stuck to the book, gstommylee. Ever heard of a film called, “To Kill a Mockingbird”?
[AbiLuv] Amy: PJ FTW
[Jenniearcheo] Poor Dems
[Amy] 🙂
[Erestel] PJ cares for the fans, but it’s obvious money is a key factor.
[gstommylee] CG yes and seen it
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Demosthenes let’s talk about Tauriek 😉
[Pete_R] Sorry, Dems.
[Goldberry] Ok, tauriel
* Puma waves
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *Tauriel
[lunarising] So this Tauriel chick…
[Smaug] yeah, Tauriel 🙂
[Elemmire] well dems…we’ll move on and leave them to it
[flameofudun] back on topic
[Darkover] Chris, a “Mary Sue” is a fan fic written with the main character as an idealized version of the author, and usually a main canonical character, Legolas for example, falls in love with “Mary Sue.” They are notorious in fan fiction for being the sort of fic no one should write, or be expected to read.
[Jenniearcheo] What color was her hair again?
[Pete_R] (where did I put my *Stay On Topic* whip?)
[mib_vngh0v] why are purists discussing the movies and Tauriel, you clearly hate both
[Jenniearcheo] Lincoln green?
[Symbelmine] [ChristineGolden] Yes, that´s what this Tauriel reminds me of.
[ChristineGolden] I have to stop asking those kinds of questions. TY, Darkover.
[Darkover] lol, Chris, you’re welcome
[Elemmire] lol jennie
[ChristineGolden] Maybe for the same reason PJ’s fanboys and fangirls attend our book discussions and keep dragging in the film, mib_v
[sunshower] oy
[Elemmire] Tauriel…
[flameofudun] is tauriel the personal royal bodyguard for thranduil
[Jenniearcheo] You’re using that as an excuse to punish Demosthenes ?
[mib_vngh0v] um the topic was set Tauriel, not by me
[flameofudun] ?
[serinde] will it be Tauriel’s fault that Gollum escapes from the Elbes?
[Demosthenes] Have we yet considered how Tauriel may fit into Bilbo’s adventures in the woodland realm? And specifically in the escape of the dwarves?
[serinde] elves
[Darkover] I admit that my hopes aren’t high, but Tauriel may actually add something to the movie.
[Demosthenes] Because I would like to discuss that.
[sauronswife] That’s interesting serinde.
[flameofudun] doubt it, if she is so determined and responsible
[Darkover] do you think Tauriel will aid them, Demosthenes?
[gstommylee] Darkover: agreed
[Jenniearcheo] I did mention that there was speculation that she aids him in some way. I hope not. At least not on purpose or directly
[Demosthenes] Well … yes, i think perhaps so.
[Elemmire] I think, given my general opinion of tauriel so dat, she probably will
[ChristineGolden] I assume she will fulfill her role as captain of the guard.
[mib_vngh0v] anyways, Tauriel looks awesome from the photo, and i think she will have a relationship with Thorin, create some internal conflict to Thorin
[serinde] I think Tauriel will be suspicious that food is mysteriously disappearing, and doors opening
[Elemmire] *so far
[Demosthenes] Either by comission … or by omission.
[Pete_R] Ive heard rumors that she is the guard who gets drunk, or tht she helps them to escape because Kili (ot Fili?) is cute, etc. Nothing soild, obviously
[Darkover] Maybe her aid isn’t active. Maybe she feels Thranduil is wrong to imprison them, and looks the other way when they escape
[Demosthenes] omission would be more subtle.
[Elfriend] Dems – that falls into a chain of thought I have, how Tauriel may enrich the story.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps she’ll get the guard drunk
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] what do you think about the battle between orcs and elves (including Tauriel)? will there be an orc attack on the woodland realm while the dwarves were captured?
[Erestel] Oh, please, no relationships with Thorin…
[serinde] yes, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm jennie
[Demosthenes] Jenniearcheo: one possibility for sure!
[Darkover] Personally, I would prefer her doing that to actively giving them the keys, or something.
[ChristineGolden] So, if PJ follows canon, she’ll get drunk and Bilbo will help the dwarves escape, yes?
[Demosthenes] that would actually “tamper” very little with the story.
[Elemmire] yeah, me too darkover
[Darkover] or maybe, Chris, as someone here suggested, she will get the butler and turnkey drunk
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that would be the case yes.
[Amy] Darkover, I agree.
[Jenniearcheo] She could easily be one of the two drunks
[Raurenkili] only if her name was Galion
[Demosthenes] that might be a “sin of omission”
[Darkover] thank you, Amy and elmmire
[gstommylee] was it state specifically what the drunk elf was in the book that helped bilio and dwarfs escape?
[Erestel] Galion was the butler.
[Darkover] sorry, elemmire
[Elfriend] I can’t see Tauriel getting drunk.
[Pete_R] I’ve also heard that she may be somehwat humiliated because she was responsible for the dwarves’ escape
[Demosthenes] Yes, Galion is the butler.
[ChristineGolden] What artistic reason would PJ have for her not getting drunk?
[Darkover] only by getting drunk, gstommylee
[sauronswife] Me either Elfriend…
[Darkover] that way, Bilbo was able to steal the keys
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: more speculation?
[Elfriend] Possibly ‘turning coat’ but not getting drunk.
[gstommylee] i mean the character itself
[serinde] I think she’ll notice footsteps when they are returning to the halls … ‘hearing’ Bilbo following
[gstommylee] male elf female elf?
[flameofudun] yes and galion has been confirmed to be in the movie so he will be getting drunk
[chrysophylax] did somebody already suggest that she helps the dwarves?
[Elfriend] I think it would be tacky.
[ChristineGolden] So, why shouldn’t Tauriel?
[sauronswife] They did chrysophylax.
[Pete_R] gstommylee, the drunk elf slept, aloowing Bilbo to steal the cell keys
[Darkover] we’ve speculated that, chrysophylax
[Demosthenes] serinde: legolas has incredibly good eyesight. so … that may follow logically .. kenner senses.
[Smaug] that would be interesting if she noticed something odd happening, with the food disapearing and all
[Demosthenes] keener*
[serinde] thanks
[ChristineGolden] Is it tacky when the captain of the guard got drunk, or is it because she’s female?
* Elemmire has to go now….:(…..thanks for a good discussion everyone! Bye!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Girls can get drunk just as sloppily as boys!
[Demosthenes] Not sure what you mean christine.
[Goldberry] Bye
[Raurenkili] bye!
[ChristineGolden] bye, Elemmire.
[Darkover] bye, Elemmire
[sauronswife] Aww, bye Elemmire.
[Smaug] Bye
[Pete_R] bye, elemmire
[Elemmire] bye
[Raurenkili] bye Elemmire
[Demosthenes] seeya Elemmire
[Amy] Bye elemmire!
* AbiLuv waves
[Erestel] Farewell!
[flameofudun] bye
[Darkover] Jennie, *that* is something I would prefer to leave to the guys
* Raurenkili waves
[Jenniearcheo] You just have to hold their hair
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] oh girls just wanna have fun
[Elfriend] Dems – do you think it possible to have this character inclusion and the possible significant role she plays without taking away from other character time?
[Pete_R] rofl, Jennie
[Darkover] yeah, and getting drunk until you vomit is *such* fun
[ChristineGolden] Well, people keep coming up with all these changes to the story about the captain of the guard suddenly helping the dwarves escape, Demosthenes, instead of getting drunk.
[Erestel] That’s Dorwinion vintage for you.
[ChristineGolden] So, I was wondering if it was because she was female.
[serinde] we don\t know if she helps the dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Elfriend, because of the movies’ overall length.
[sauronswife] The Butler (what was his name) seemed a bit scatterbrained and Tauriel does not seem so….
[Jenniearcheo] I just hope she doesn’t get her hair caught in a cell door and someone has to cut it off.
[Darkover] I would prefer a scenario in which Tauriel believes the dwarves are locked up needlessly/wrongly, and thus looks the other way while they escape
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: well, /any/ character added will consume screen time. But, as a few have said, if Tauriel were to ignore bilbo and allow him to escape rather than actively plotting with him … then that could be wholly in keeping with the chapter.
[serinde] but perhaps during the negotiations …
[Demosthenes] Not sure that answers your question.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, Darkover
[sauronswife] That would be nice Darkover.
[flameofudun] galion was his name
[Darkover] we can but hope
[Demosthenes] But then bring backs the point: what is her motivation for doing so?
[Erestel] I’d be okay with that, Darkover.
[sauronswife] Galian.. Thanks.
[Demosthenes] Which syncs with Darkover’s point.
[Jenniearcheo] Pity release-from-prison for Kili?
[ChristineGolden] Not me, Darkover.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I think in the beginning she’s totally on Thranduils side. Legolas does what to help the dwarves but Tauriel takes them prisoner, later she falls in love with Kili and changes her mind and helping them
[Darkover] If she thinks Thranduil was out of line, and the King won’t listen to reason,
[Darkover] then Tauriel might feel looking the other way is the right thing to do.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *helps
[Demosthenes] Jenniearcheo: possibly! it’s not hard to see that thranduil is not very gracious.
[Darkover] It releases the prisoners without actively disobeying the King
[Demosthenes] on the other hand, nor is Thorin. 😉
[Pete_R] Except from all I’ve heard about Tauriel, she’s not the “pity-release” type
[Darkover] maybe
[serinde] the enemy of my enemy is my friend … if she hates orcs & the dwarfs have already killed orcs … that could be her motivation
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: good point.
[Demosthenes] serinde: or spiders?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps this will cause a rift between her and Thranduil.
[Darkover] Oh, lord, I hope she doesn’t let the dwarves go/ look the other way because she is in love with one of them
[Demosthenes] That could do so.
[Smaug] Lieutenantofdolguldur I agree, I’m sure at first she’ll be entirely on Thranduil’s side
[Vince] ok, let’s talk about this
[Darkover] that just seems like such a sexist cliche
[Jenniearcheo] We don’t really know what went down in the palace after the dwarves escaped, after all
[Vince] why would she be interrogating an orc
[ChristineGolden] Even if it means violating Thrandruil’s trust and his “special affection” for her? That would make her pretty ungrateful to her Lord.
[Vince] is this orc one of Azog’s people?
[Jenniearcheo] Surely somebody’s figurative head would roll
[Demosthenes] Also, this seems like it will be the key role that Tauriel plays. in my opinion at least.
[Darkover] I assume, Vince, for the reasons anyone would be interrogating an orc
[Vince] or just a moria orc from which she learns about the dwarves adventure
[ChristineGolden] Maybe it’s Azog she beheads.
[Demosthenes] I actually don’t see her popping up much else except for BOFA.
[gstommylee] hmm
[gstommylee] why would she behead azog
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but if they follow the scenario I just suggested, it might be done in such a way as to suggest that Tauriel does not obey orders blindly
[AbiLuv] Chris: don’t count on it
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure she’s there when the elves show up to aid the Laketown refugees
[Erestel] That’s just getting absurd.
[Pete_R] Maybe the elves caoture one of Azog’s party, who are still pursuing Thorin?
[flameofudun] i think she will just turn a blind eye
[Vince] you know the problem with all these strong, fighting women?
[gstommylee] Azog is thorins arch-Nemesis
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] why even interrogating an orc?
[serinde] yes, the orcs must be following Thorin
[Vince] It really takes away from Eowyn’s big moment
[Demosthenes] Occam’s razor would lead me to conclude that flameofudun
[Darkover] to get information, Lieutenant
[Demosthenes] But i guess we’ll see.
[Vince] if we’ve already seen 2 or 3 female fighters before, Eowyn isn’t so special
[gstommylee] it would make zero sense to have Tauriel kill agoz
[flameofudun] yes and boy am i excited demosthenes
[Darkover] but PJ showed us Eowyn first, Vince
* Goldberry agrees with vince
[ChristineGolden] Because Azog will still be pursuing the Company, gstommylee.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Darkover thanks I never understand the meening of interrogation 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Eowyn’s human. But a sheildmaiden
[Pete_R] Also, isn’t Tauriel supposed to be a big deal in Thranduil’s army? Then if course, she would be at BoFA
[Erestel] I disagree, Vince. No fighting woman is going to overshadow the shieldmaiden who slew the Witch-king.
[Vince] well, he showed us Arwen being a fighter in fellowship
[sauronswife] You may be right, however I just love the idea too much, Vince.
[Elfriend] Vince – I see Eowyns battle as being entirely seperate.
[Elfriend] Eowyns battle is not about skill.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[flameofudun] weve seen tauriel, arwen and eowyn. thats not that much
[Vince] and now we will see Galadriel in battle apparently
[Vince] in this movie
[gstommylee] CG just cause they still pursing the company doesn’t mean she kills agoz
[ChristineGolden] If Tauriel turns a blind eye to the dwarves’ escape, she betrays Thrandruil’s trust and faith in her.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes.
[gstommylee] imo i see thorin kill agoz in the battle of 5 armies
[Raurenkili] yes
[Darkover] yeah, I agree with flameofudun. Three female warriors isn’t exactly overdoing it.
[Jenniearcheo] That’ll cause some tension
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah. that would “raise the stakes” as it were.
[ChristineGolden] Doesn’t mean she doesn’t either, gstommylee. We do know she beheads an orc.
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I think it would depend on how it was handled.
[Vince] for a middle ages type society it’s a lot
[sauronswife] That’s canon though, Galadriel fighting with the White Council to drive out the Necromancer.
[Smaug] I think she’ll have a key role with the dwarves inprisonement/escape, but I don’t think she’ll simply let them escape because she loves Kili, it’s too cliché
[Darkover] sauronswife is right
[Vince] I guess Elves don’t have gender roles like humans do
[Demosthenes] Vince: that’s an intersting thought.
[Darkover] I certainly hope you are right, Smaug, for the reasons you named
[Vince] if a female elf is captain of the guard
[Pete_R] True, ChristineGolden, that’s why I can’t see her letting them go on purpose. by mistake, maybe, which would cause her to be even more gung-ho. Torturing orcs ad stuff
[AbiLuv] Imo: Thorin and Azog essentially kill each other
[flameofudun] oh right. still eowyn is constantly denied ability to participate in battle, and she ends up fighting and slaying the witch king himself
[ChristineGolden] So, considering what the elves think of betrayal, especially over dwarves, I’d expect Thrandruil to punish her in some way. Not put her at the head of his troops at BoFA.
[gstommylee] abi thats one way to putting it
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Darkover But does interrogation help? I mean… an orc is used to pain and torture.. will he talk? can an elf be more cruel than Azog or Sauron?
[Darkover] You’re assuming Thranduil would find out, Chris. We don’t know that he would.
[Demosthenes] Treason is regarded as “not cool” and “it’s time to pull out the gallows and the chopping block”.
[sauronswife] Agreed, Thorin vs Azog. :/ Or Beorn kills him.
[Goldberry] Didnt Dain kill azog(off topic i know)
[Jenniearcheo] Beorn tortures orcs
[Demosthenes] Would this sort of scenario be treason?
[Pete_R] ye, Goldberry
[Jenniearcheo] Depends on how obvious it is
[Darkover] You’re assuming Elves would use torture, Lieutenant. There are other ways of getting people to talk.
[Demosthenes] jennie: true.
[Goldberry] Ok, 🙂
[Vince] I think Dain will kill Azog
[Jenniearcheo] We know from her slip-of-the-Elven-tongue that she reports the cells empty
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the elves did not even torture gollum.
[Vince] isn’t he the one who killed him in the book?
[Jenniearcheo] Doesn’t mean she fesses up to deliberately aiding
[ChristineGolden] That’s the problem with changing the story, Darkover: one change leads to another leads to another…
[Darkover] Beorn kills orcs, jennie. I don’t know if he tortures them first.
[Elfriend] flameofudun – without going on a tangent here Eowyn does not herself slay the Witch King 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] But maybe he suspects . . .
[Pete_R] I can Dain at BoFA, when he sees Azpg? “What??? Didn’t I already kill you, laddie?”
[Jenniearcheo] Hence the tension
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Elves in general don’t seem to utilize torture.
[Demosthenes] jennie: that could work.
[Erestel] Yes, Vince. At a remarkably young age, too.
[Goldberry] Lol, pete
[flameofudun] hey guys a quick off topic shot, but the first desolation of smaug poster has been released online. there is a link in the forums
[Vince] the movie makes Dain out to be a bit of a coward so far
[Vince] he refuses to back the quest
[Darkover] That doesn’t mean he is a coward, Vince
[Demosthenes] flameofudun: ta
[Darkover] and that was probably done so the audience who haven’t yet read the book will know who Dain is
[Erestel] Not really, Vince. More of a “better safe than sorry” attitude.
[flameofudun] elfriend this was previously discussed many times and will be discussed continuosly in the future
[flameofudun] i will be right back
[serinde] dain, I assume, thinks it is a foolish quest … but he does come in for the treasure
[Pete_R] Right, Demosthenes, about torture.But if Tauriel is disgraced over the dwarves’ escape, she could be a little too zealous. Movie-stuff.
[Darkover] rather than wondering, “who is this guy?” when he and his troops show up at the Battle of the 5 Armies
* sauronswife nods to serinde.
[Demosthenes] jennie: i would think that a captain of guards aiding and abetting the enemy could look forward to a demotion at best.
[gstommylee] doesn’t Dain sees the quest as a lost cause hence why its the throins and co quest and their quest alone?
[Demosthenes] just to pursue that thought a bit further
[Demosthenes] (if caught)
[Vince] but I doubt casual movie watchers will remember one small line from the last movie a year later
[Jenniearcheo] Again, only if they’re caught
[Darkover] There will probably be other mentions of him, Vince
[Demosthenes] yes
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[ChristineGolden] I’d say probably more than a demotion, Demosthenes, if it were Thorin who escaped.
[Jenniearcheo] Metaphorical head rolls, as I said
[Jenniearcheo] We never “see” in the text what happens once they escape
[ChristineGolden] I’d think she would at least be imprisoned.
[Jenniearcheo] Could be anything
[sunshower] another new character? meta….?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Leggsy begs for lenience?
[sunshower] 😛
[serinde] i must agree with one of the first comments … it has to be Bilbo\s wit that saves them
[Pete_R] True, Vince. It would be awkward for thorin to say”This is my cousin Dain, who, if you recall, was mentioned as refusing to help us in our quest, back in film one.”
[Demosthenes] serinde: i hope so too.
[Darkover] I certainly hope they stick to canon on that point, serinde
[Vince] exactly Pete
* sauronswife finds all these different points of view interesting and mulls over them.
[Jenniearcheo] I hope so, serinde. We’ll see
[ChristineGolden] Aiding and abetting the escape of a group of dwarves would earn someone more than a slap on the wrist from Thrandruil. At least, the Thrandruil shown in AUJ.
[AbiLuv] Pete_R: LOL
[Demosthenes] The other extreme is some sort of rear-guard action in the barrel room?
[Elfriend] flameofudun – and I shall always be around to discuss it, but we move on 😉
[Jenniearcheo] It already looks like the elves will show up and if not actually free the Dwarves themselves from the spiders, at least fight off an orc attack or something immediately after
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure I can see that happening tho
[Pete_R] Hello, sunshower (didn’t get to do that earlier) 🙂 tyvm AbiLuv 😎
[Vince] Maybe Taurel will do everything: kill Azog, Bolg, drive out the Necromancer single handeled, teach Legolas how to shoot a bow and she will take Bard’s place and kill Smaug
[Elfriend] x D
[Erestel] Tauriel becomes Queen Under the Mountain.
[Jenniearcheo] I told you, Vince. She’s a serial killer. Nobody listens
[Elfriend] lol
[sauronswife] Tauriel doesn’t have such level of sorcery to do those things XD
[Goldberry] Lol vince
[Vince] She will kill Thorin too :p
[sauronswife] ERm enchantment…
[sauronswife] Magic.
[Vince] and Kili for having a crush on her
[Darkover] I assume that was Vince’s idea of humor, sauronswife
[serinde] i remember when FotR trailers first came out, people were up in arms over the warrior attitude of Arwen … do you think we will like a female elven warrior?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] and he might be a shapeshifter too and is the moth that helps Gandalf multiple times in LOTR
[sunshower] hiya Pete_R
[sauronswife] I know. 😀 Vince
[Vince] and then Fili will weep over his brother so she kills him to spare his pain
[Elfriend] “Silly She-Elf, you cannot slay me-”
[Darkover] Some will, some won’t
[Goldberry] Lolollolo, vince!!!
[Elfriend] x D
[ChristineGolden] I won’t, serinde, but I’m sure PJ’s fans will, for the most part, love her. I don’t understand the feminist support for her, though.
[Elfriend] Vince, you just went up in my ratings
[serinde] but weren’t we always disappointed when Maid Marion never took up arms with Robin Hood?
[Vince] 😀
[Pete_R] haha, Elfried. Or “Silly She-Elf — Wars are for guys.” (Trix commercial reference)
[serinde] to get really off topic
[Darkover] I understand it, Chris, because other than Galadriel and Eowyn, most of Tolkien’s female characters seem passive, and stay at home a lot
[sauronswife] I guess I’d find the joke funnier if Tauriel started out with higher level “magic”.
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, okay. So do we have any further avenues to discuss Tauriel?
[Pete_R] Elfriend ^^^
[sunshower] shoe size?
[Demosthenes] Aspects that we haven’t considered so far.
[ChristineGolden] Well, I believe in equal rights, Darkover, and I think it’s insulting.
[Vince] Tauriel is feminist…for the 70’s. She seems the female warrior trope to me. That’s great but I hope we see other sides to her too instead of just as a killer. I hope she’s a three dimensional character.
[Pete_R] Since we’re mostly guessing, prolly not, Demz. 🙂
[serinde] is 600 years … is she an adult
[gstommylee] Darkover: if PJ wants to really throw a wrench in it he’ll have a female dwarf in the battle of 5 armies battling orcs 😉
[Darkover] It’s true that we don’t have much to go on.
[Elfriend] See, I thought this was win win. Guys get to watch Dwarves giving hide and Girls get to gaga over hot dwarves..
[sauronswife] I can see both sides of it, the feminist side and pro-Tolkien end.
[ChristineGolden] “Tolkien didn’t add enough strong female characters, so we have to add some. Otherwise, women won’t like the movies.”
[Elfriend] ‘kicking hyde’
[Darkover] Since male and female dwarves apparently look just alike, how would we know, gstommylee?
[sunshower] a wench? in BoFA? PJ’d have to be hammered
[serinde] but you won’t know if there is a female dwarf because of the beard
[ChristineGolden] Puh-lease.
[Vince] it is good to have more women
[Pete_R] gstommylee, maybe, but how could you tell. 😀
[Darkover] Actually, Chris, that probably is what they were thinking when they added Tauriel
[sauronswife] And yes I want Tauriel to be a three-dimentional character also.
[flameofudun] im back
[Demosthenes] If I was going to add one, i would have gone for more. Just to take the focus off Tauriel.
[serinde] definitely 3 dimensional
[Vince] maybe there will be a twist with her
[sauronswife] Hahahaha! Dem.
[Demosthenes] I’m serious!
[Vince] maybe she will turn to Sauron’s side and become evil?
[Darkover] BTW, I can’t vouch for it, but from what I understand, Tolkien added the character of Eowyn when his daughter complained that all the characters were male, and females didn’t get to do anything in the story.
[serinde] demo… we don’t know that there aren\t more
[Demosthenes] I really would have. Do it properly, or don’t do it.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Darkover, I think they were thinking of something entirely different and the fem-lib thing is just their angle to explain the inclusion of Tauriel.
[Pete_R] wb, flame
[Demosthenes] serinde: they would have announced the casting earlier.
[serinde] I suspect there were female warriors at Helm’s Deep
[Demosthenes] So i conclude there will be no others.
[serinde] not if they were just extras
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to tell under that armor
[serinde] the elves that make up the whole army
[Demosthenes] oh. well, no, i mean character actors. more than extras. extras don’t really count.
[Jenniearcheo] They don’t all have to have brunhilde breastplates
[Demosthenes] EL is really a character actor in this role i think.
[serinde] they do if you are counting females
[Raurenkili] Elves did NOT fight at helms deep in the book
[Goldberry] Someone mentioned age-600 sounds quite young to me
[Demosthenes] yes we know Raurenkili 🙂
[serinde] yes, we know
[Erestel] We know, Raurenkili.
[Pete_R] WE know
[AbiLuv] but it was cool anyway XD
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: elves grow up quick. really quick.
[Raurenkili] and other than that, ALL the women and children were not in war
[Pete_R] haha
[Darkover] for an elf, 600 is young, Goldberry, although it is an adult
[serinde] yes, we don’t know the aging of elves
[Raurenkili] yes
[Vince] she’s a fiery redhead who is a ruthless killer and interrogates orcs as captain of he Mirkwood guard and is close to Thraundriel and we must assume Legolas. That’s all we know of her.
[serinde] she is head of the guard, but
[flameofudun] so what date would that be? just wondering what major events she was born in
[Erestel] We’re left to assume Elves age the same way as men until adulthood.
[Demosthenes] vince: and has some sort of unknown romance.
[ChristineGolden] And she has a love interest, Vince, probably Kili.
[Jenniearcheo] We also know she reports the empty cells
[Darkover] if you’re an orc, that is all you need to know, Vince 🙂
[Vince] lol
[Vince] right
[Demosthenes] oh jennie i’d forgotten that. true!
[serinde] what year was Elrond’s wife captured by orcs?
[flameofudun] wait demosthenes that bit is confirmed?
[sauronswife] I can’t remember..
[Pete_R] Hard to be sure, Erestel. I can honestly say that I can’t recall Tolkien writing specifically about a single elf child.
[sauronswife] I’m not good with years.
[Demosthenes] flameofudun: the cells thing? well, EL quoted that line in a red carpet thing.
[Demosthenes] But, will it end up on the cutting room floor? We’ll see. we know it must be being considered.
[sauronswife] It’s stated in Laws and customs that Elves reach their full height at 50 and are considered adults at 100. There was other details but I can’t remember them.
* sauronswife needs an ecopy of Morgoth’s Ring…
[Vince] Maybe Kili will lighten Taruiel up and make her less serious and aggressive and laugh a little. Chick flick style. Then she sees Kili die in the BOTFA and goes on a killing rampage before she goes out in a blaze of glory herself
[serinde] thanks, sauronswife
[Jenniearcheo] I like it, Vince
[Raurenkili] cool idea vince
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was only half-elven, but Tolkien did speak of Earendil (briefly) as a child.
[sauronswife] Welcome serinde.
[Pete_R] Kili = another notch on Tauriel’s lipstick case?
[Vince] I really think she will die in the third movie
[serinde] Dior, Elrond & Elros, too, Chris
[Vince] otherwise they’d have to explain why we never see her again
[gstommylee] vince well i think it can be done imo
[serinde] really, why not just leave her in the north?
[Darkover] or she sails to valinor
[Erestel] Gwindor was an elf who participated at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and he was only 45 when he died.
[gstommylee] really depends on where BOFA ends in the 3rd movie
[serinde] wow
[Darkover] doomed youth
[Vince] oo, maybe Legolas will blame the Dwarves for her death..hence furthering his prejudice. She died because Kili put the charms on her
[Demosthenes] Erestel: that is young for an elf.
[ChristineGolden] I was trying to think of a child who was involved in the events, serinde.
[Raurenkili] Erestel, Gwindor did not die in the nirnaeth
[Darkover] Elrond and Elros, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] I think so, Vince. I think it will change the way we see Legolas’s distrust of dwarves at the Council in FOTR
[serinde] Elrond & Elros were children when Elwing threw herself into the se
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: he said participated.
[serinde] sea
[Vince] yeah, this is all really good actually
[sauronswife] Yeah *sighs sadly* Tauriel will probably kick the bucket, I just hope she dies awesomely without affecting Kili/FiliThorin’s deaths.
[Raurenkili] he said 45 when he died
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t remember anything about their childhood, Darkover, other than they’re being mentioned by name and the half-elven thing.
[Vince] the more we see of racist Legolas, the more powerful his relationship with Gimli will be
[Raurenkili] ah well
[Smaug] I should go, its 1:20 in the morning here and I’ve got two weeks of exams before me… It was really nice talking with you guys 🙂
[serinde] vince, good point
[Demosthenes] night smaug!
[sauronswife] Farewell Smaug.
[chrysophylax] Did Legolas ever actually leave the Mirkwood Forest before he attended the
[Smaug] thanks 🙂
[chrysophylax] Great Council?
[Jenniearcheo] True. Gimli might redeem dwarves in his eyes
[Vince] night Smaug! Good luck on the exams!
[Demosthenes] Okay, final points on our topic?
[Darkover] Chris, their mother Elwing did a bunk–jumped out the window with a silmaril, rather than let Maedhros and Maglor capture it and her.
[Erestel] True, Raurenkili, but he died shortly afterward.
[serinde] he knew who Aragorn was
[Pete_R] cheer, Smaug
[Demosthenes] Otherwise I’m calling the topic officially done. 🙂
[Darkover] She left her twin sons behind, and Maglor fostered them–Elrond and Elros
[serinde] yes, darkover
[Darkover] I think we are done with Tauriel, Demsothenes
[Darkover] sorry, Demosthenes
* sauronswife nods…
[Pete_R] I second the motion, Demz
[ChristineGolden] Ah, you’re right, Darkover, I forgot about Maglor fostering them, etc.
[sauronswife] It was a good discussion.
[serinde] yep, exhausted what little facts we know
[Vince] final point? Hmmm…Taruiel could be okay if she’s not written as a Mary Sue or as too powerful and if she is used moderately and doesn’t drag the story in a different direction.
[Maglor] ]_]
[serinde] yes
[ChristineGolden] Not for me, Vince.
[Demosthenes] Thank you everyone for an interesting and sometimes quite passionate chat. Hope you all enjoyed.
[Darkover] Yes, Vince, let us hope PJ and co. understand that.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for hosting, Dems
[serinde] thanks Demo
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers
[Darkover] we did, Demosthenes, as always!
* sauronswife agrees with Vince.
[Demosthenes] Oh, and next weekend we are on the road to isengard.
[Pete_R] thank *you,* Demosthenes
[Goldberry] It was great dem
[Maglor] They’re taking the Hobbits to Isengard!
[Goldberry] Cya all!
[Demosthenes] shoosh
[Pete_R] Are we taking the hobbits with us, Demz?
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for next weekend: Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard. | General TORn chat thataway! click –]’
Session Close: Sun Jun 09 09:32:44 2013

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