<inJvstice> greetings
<Maeglin_Lomion> Hi inJvstice
<Lothengriol> Hi
<inJvstice> Were you guys waitng for the Quenya/Sindarin chat?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep
<inJvstice> well there might be some difficulties with that to night
<inJvstice> is or was Jincey around?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I was going to try to catch her at Barlimans, then you showed up. Is Gorlab coming too?
<inJvstice> ahhh he just arrived
<inJvstice> hmmm
<inJvstice> well We”re not assembled nor are we truly prepaired tonight
<Maeglin_Lomion> Jincey is in #theonering.net. Want me to get her over here?
<inJvstice> however, I might be able to give at least a quick lesson on Tengwar
<Maeglin_Lomion> Be back in a sec……….
<Lothengriol> That would be interesting
<inJvstice> o.k. well I’m not entirely prepaired for that but I tell you what I know
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK
<inJvstice> unfortunatly we do not have our own web site up and running right now
<inJvstice> do any of you have access to a tengwar chart?
<inJvstice> either online or from ROTK Appendix?
<Lothengriol> no
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Appendix E
<inJvstice> hold on a minunte and I’ll try to find a good url for you to open
<Lothengriol> OK, I’m with you now
<inJvstice> http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/teng_names.htm
<inJvstice> try that
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it….with a bazillion popup boxes. AAARGH.
<inJvstice> hmmm didna get pop up myself
<inJvstice> all right first of all see the 1st chart listed there?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve been there before. Every time I change pages, I get popups.
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep.
<inJvstice> o.k.
<Lothengriol> OK
<inJvstice> compare that to the chart in Appn. E of ROTK
<inJvstice> with me?
<Maeglin_Lomion> It’s the same, except Appendix E doesn’t have the text with each letter.
<inJvstice> yes
<inJvstice> that is the standard form the tengwar chart assume
<inJvstice> assumes
<inJvstice> on the URL I gave you the chart also includes the Quenya names of each of the tengwa or letters
<inJvstice> and the english equivolents of each name.
<inJvstice> for instance on the top row
<inJvstice> you have tinco (metal), parma (book), calma (lamp), and quesse (feather)
<inJvstice> follow?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it.
<Lothengriol> k
<inJvstice> now the quenya names for each other tengwa contain (in general) the phomeic quality of the letter
<inJvstice> so tinco = t, parma = p, calma = k (since the ‘c’ in quenya and sindarin is always a hard ‘c’ or ‘ka’ sound)
<inJvstice> and quesse = qu
<Lothengriol> I actually get it
<inJvstice> kewl its not that much of a streach…
<inJvstice> *-)
<inJvstice> now moving down, the second row….
<inJvstice> ando = nd, umbar = mb, anga =ng, and ungwe = nge
<inJvstice> these are the ‘original’ quenya values
<inJvstice> since in quenya these are common consonant combinations
<inJvstice> we’ll hold off on english values for a moment
<inJvstice> you with me on the second row?
<Lothengriol> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep
<inJvstice> no if you want, appendix E actually give all the values for both english and quenya
<inJvstice> you have to read through it a bit to fingure it all out
<inJvstice> so let me digress here for a moment and go to a point I should have stated first…..
<inJvstice> that is the tengwar is a system of writing phonetics
<inJvstice> that is to say each tengwar represents a particular sound
<inJvstice> so you can use the same symbols (tengwar) to represnt sounds in diffrent languages
<inJvstice> useing the Roman characters (the ones we are typing with) to write english, french, or spanish
<inJvstice> sorta
<inJvstice> to change modes or languages though the values will change
<inJvstice> o.k. for an idea of differnt modes go here
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
<inJvstice> let me know when yer there
<Lothengriol> you expect too much of me, just go on
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’m there. More popups. Great.
<inJvstice> wierd no popup here again
<inJvstice> oh well scroll down and find the link to English language
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it, clicked it….much better descriptions for the letters! 🙂
<inJvstice> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Fewer popups too.
<inJvstice> this give you good values for useing the tengwar to write english words
<inJvstice> the other tree links on the homepage there give values for quenya, sindarin classical, and sindarin beleriand
<Maeglin_Lomion> Nice charts to print.
<inJvstice> ues I recommend printing them
<inJvstice> if you can
<inJvstice> or at least copying them to a harddrive
<Maeglin_Lomion> doing that now. 🙂
<inJvstice> you’ll notice that the basic chart does not contain any vowels
<inJvstice> what you have in the basic chart is the consonantal values
<Lothengriol> because it is an “ancient” language
<inJvstice> the vowels are actually extra characters called tethar (or tetha in the singular)
<inJvstice> are you guys still on english?
<inJvstice> the chart that is?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I am.
<inJvstice> kewl
<Lothengriol> I am just using books
<inJvstice> Lothengriol, you are in ROTK?
<Lothengriol> and Noel
<inJvstice> k
<inJvstice> in ROTK look at the title page there are tengwar inscriprions there
<inJvstice> you’ll the consonant characters with some other marks above some of them
<Lothengriol> the vowels?
<inJvstice> yes
<Lothengriol> got it
<inJvstice> in quenya the tethar are written above the preceeding consonant
<inJvstice> so you would read each tengwar then the tetha above it
<inJvstice> this is difficult to do in this chat cause I really need to demonstrate
<inJvstice> bleh
<inJvstice> so in sindarin (and english) the vowel is placed above the succeeeding consonant
<inJvstice> reading the tethe then the tengwar beneth it
<inJvstice> tetha.
<inJvstice> follw me here?
<Lothengriol> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> What printing of ROTK are you looking at where there is Tengwar in the title page? I have a paperback printing from 1969 of the trilogy.
<inJvstice> oh there is not tengwar inscriptions on the title page?
<Lothengriol> ’65
<Maeglin_Lomion> Not on the ’69 Ballantyne Books printing.
<inJvstice> ahhh
<inJvstice> didn’t know that
<inJvstice> every copy I have or have seen has it
<inJvstice> wierd
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve got Dwarven runes.
<inJvstice> what about on the bottom of the page?
<inJvstice> do you have any of the “HOME” series?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Ack…yes, you’re right. D’oh..! 🙂
<inJvstice> o.k.
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve got HoME
<inJvstice> now that is written in English ‘mode’
<inJvstice> all of HoME has inscriptions too
<inJvstice> the Professor does give enough information in Appen E to translate that inscription
<inJvstice> o.k. I’m having problems trnaslating the LOTR title page inscirption…hehehe
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ll wait till I’m offline to try it. 🙂
<Lothengriol> same here
<inJvstice> I wanted to do so for you so you’d get a sence of it
<inJvstice> lets see here
<inJvstice> do you see the anga character a little to the right
<inJvstice> it has two open bows to the left and a stem the extends down
<inJvstice> anga is the third on the second row of the chat
<inJvstice> chart
<Lothengriol> ok
<inJvstice> that stands for j
<inJvstice> the next one is h
<inJvstice> after that is n
<inJvstice> no. 33 on the chart is the h
<inJvstice> no. 17 on the chart is n
<inJvstice> got me
<inJvstice> ?
<Lothengriol> e?
<inJvstice> first of all do you see these three tengwar on the LOTR title page?
<Lothengriol> yes
<inJvstice> k
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<inJvstice> now no. 17 (the one that represnts ‘n’) has a curl above it
<Maeglin_Lomion> About 1/3 of the way thru the 1st line
<inJvstice> the curl opens to the right
<inJvstice> yes thats it
<Maeglin_Lomion> What’s the curl thingy?
<inJvstice> the curl above the ‘n’ is the tetha for ‘o’
<inJvstice> therefore you have j – h – on
<inJvstice> john
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, I see that on the tetha chart
<Maeglin_Lomion> John in JRRT 🙂
<inJvstice> since he was writing in English the tetha comes above the following tengwa
<inJvstice> yes
<inJvstice> then the next word will be ronald
<inJvstice> 25, 17, 27, 5
<inJvstice> with the tetha for
<inJvstice> ‘o’ and ‘a’ above the 17 and 27 respectivly
<inJvstice> still with me here?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I follow you
<inJvstice> Lothengriol?
<Lothengriol> yes, but my paperback and my hardbound have different vowel marks
<inJvstice> ohhh
<Aeran> me too
<inJvstice> ahh aeran is here too
<inJvstice> kewl
<Aeran> the hardbound makes more sense
<inJvstice> prolly easier to read
<Lothengriol> clearer
<Aeran> wait..maybe they are the same…the first word is ‘of’ Are there two ways to write that?
<Maeglin_Lomion> My paperback seems to go along with the chart on the website
<inJvstice> there are two ways to write ‘of’
<inJvstice> you can use no. 10 with the rightopening curl to denote ‘of’
<inJvstice> or you can use 14 with the stem extending down and up
<inJvstice> which is more phoetically correct…ov
<inJvstice> that is the word we write as of, is pronounced oov
<inJvstice> ov
<inJvstice> the inscription should then be ‘of west march by john ronald ruel tolkien
<inJvstice> that is up to the colon about 4 fiths of the way along the top line
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/
<inJvstice> contains a tengwar textbook which is very veyr useful and helpful
<inJvstice> stragnely enough I’ve been at this for about an hour now…*-)
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks for the textbook link!
<Aeran> this is great fun
<inJvstice> kewl
<Lothengriol> thanks for everything
<inJvstice> I’m going to end this here for tonight
<inJvstice> and assign some homework
<Lothengriol> groan
<inJvstice> *chuckle*
<Aeran> yay
<inJvstice> for next week
<inJvstice> try to get the title page inscription translated
<Aeran> can we check our answers? :))
<inJvstice> it is a good starting point
<inJvstice> injvstice at frodocoita.com
<Maeglin_Lomion> I know where the cheat links are on that page. 🙂
<inJvstice> lol
<inJvstice> yes there is a cheat page online
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks, inJvstice
<Lothengriol> yes, thanks
<inJvstice> I have to admit this is hard to do without being able to demonstrate
<Lothengriol> you did a great job
<Maeglin_Lomion> You did fine!
Action: Aeran agrees
<inJvstice> *blush*
<inJvstice> *chuckle*
<inJvstice> well try to get the title page translated, don’t worry about the top of the page that is the Cirith
<inJvstice> or Dwarf Runes
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve downloaded the textbooks in the links to check out at a later time.
<inJvstice> I’ll get to those later
<Lothengriol> oh, and I was going for extra credit
<inJvstice> *chucklE*
<inJvstice> o.k. extra credit for the Cirith
Action: Maeglin_Lomion graduated from school too long ago…forgot what homework is. 🙂
<inJvstice> well good night and good luck
<Maeglin_Lomion> ‘nite
<Lothengriol> thanks again
<Aeran> thanks, nite
<inJvstice> yer welcome
Month: August 2003
This weekend, Hall of Fire will turn to how Tolkien uses colour as a language to describe the visual and the non-visual in his works, The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, and if relevant, any other of his works. Many people are drawn to and captivated by Tolkien’s attention to detail and wonderfully visual descriptions of dramatic landscapes, but this is by no means the sole attraction of his writing. [More]
This weekend, Hall of Fire will turn to how Tolkien uses colour as a language to describe the visual and the non-visual in his works, The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, and if relevant, any other of his works. Many people are drawn to and captivated by Tolkien’s attention to detail and wonderfully visual descriptions of dramatic landscapes, but this is by no means the sole attraction of his writing. [More]
This weekend, Hall of Fire will turn to how Tolkien uses colour as a language to describe the visual and the non-visual in his works, The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, and if relevant, any other of his works.
Many people are drawn to and captivated by Tolkien’s attention to detail and wonderfully visual descriptions of dramatic landscapes, but this is by no means the sole attraction of his writing.
We’ll examine the colours that Tolkien uses to describe certain races. Many of the descriptions of Elves are heavily throughout the Silmarillion, and the other races and their colours are twined through the Lord of the Rings, so we’ll be looking at both works and examining the progression from one to the other.
We’ll also look at Tolkien’s connection of colour with good or evil, and the levels in between. And we’ll touch on how Tolkien often uses an unusual blend of colour and tone to describe landscapes that are visually unique, and border on the surreal.
Finally, we’ll examine Tolkein’s use of colour as adjectives to describe things other than landscapes, such as emotion. Join this weekend for what promises to be a fascinating topic discussion!
Upcoming Topics:
August 30-31: Movie spoilers: Love ’em or hate ’em? Why?
September 6-7: Feanor – Spirit of Fire
September 13-14: RoTK Book 6, Ch 3: Mount Doom
September 20-21: The relevancy of Tolkien to the 21st century.
September 27-28: RoTK Book 6, Ch 4: The Field of Cormallen
October 4-5: Leaf by Niggle
Times:
Saturday Chat:
5:30pm ET (17:30)
[also 11:30pm (23:30) CET and 7:30am Sunday (07:30) AET]
Sunday Chat:
7:00 pm (19:00) CET
[also 1:00pm (13:00) ET and 3:00am (03:00) Monday morning AET]
ET = Eastern Time, USA’s East Coast
CET = Central European Time, Central Europe
AET = Australian East Coast
Do you have a possible topic for Hall of Fire? Drop us a line at halloffire@theonering.net. And don’t forget that you can check out previous chats here.
Sideshow/Weta has just posted a gorgeous, limited edition, polystone statue of Elrond, Herald of Gilgalad. Depicting Elrond in his role of the Second Age, the statue stands over a foot high and is amazingly detailed. Check it out! [More] [Pre-order]
Before any king can return, New Line Cinema will re-release of the first two “Lord of the Rings” pics worldwide, this time with additional scenes and footage added. [More]