<inJvstice> greetings
<Maeglin_Lomion> Hi inJvstice
<Lothengriol> Hi
<inJvstice> Were you guys waitng for the Quenya/Sindarin chat?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep
<inJvstice> well there might be some difficulties with that to night
<inJvstice> is or was Jincey around?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I was going to try to catch her at Barlimans, then you showed up. Is Gorlab coming too?
<inJvstice> ahhh he just arrived
<inJvstice> hmmm
<inJvstice> well We”re not assembled nor are we truly prepaired tonight
<Maeglin_Lomion> Jincey is in #theonering.net. Want me to get her over here?
<inJvstice> however, I might be able to give at least a quick lesson on Tengwar
<Maeglin_Lomion> Be back in a sec……….
<Lothengriol> That would be interesting
<inJvstice> o.k. well I’m not entirely prepaired for that but I tell you what I know
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK
<inJvstice> unfortunatly we do not have our own web site up and running right now
<inJvstice> do any of you have access to a tengwar chart?
<inJvstice> either online or from ROTK Appendix?
<Lothengriol> no
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Appendix E
<inJvstice> hold on a minunte and I’ll try to find a good url for you to open
<Lothengriol> OK, I’m with you now
<inJvstice> http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/teng_names.htm
<inJvstice> try that
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it….with a bazillion popup boxes. AAARGH.
<inJvstice> hmmm didna get pop up myself
<inJvstice> all right first of all see the 1st chart listed there?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve been there before. Every time I change pages, I get popups.
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep.
<inJvstice> o.k.
<Lothengriol> OK
<inJvstice> compare that to the chart in Appn. E of ROTK
<inJvstice> with me?
<Maeglin_Lomion> It’s the same, except Appendix E doesn’t have the text with each letter.
<inJvstice> yes
<inJvstice> that is the standard form the tengwar chart assume
<inJvstice> assumes
<inJvstice> on the URL I gave you the chart also includes the Quenya names of each of the tengwa or letters
<inJvstice> and the english equivolents of each name.
<inJvstice> for instance on the top row
<inJvstice> you have tinco (metal), parma (book), calma (lamp), and quesse (feather)
<inJvstice> follow?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it.
<Lothengriol> k
<inJvstice> now the quenya names for each other tengwa contain (in general) the phomeic quality of the letter
<inJvstice> so tinco = t, parma = p, calma = k (since the ‘c’ in quenya and sindarin is always a hard ‘c’ or ‘ka’ sound)
<inJvstice> and quesse = qu
<Lothengriol> I actually get it
<inJvstice> kewl its not that much of a streach…
<inJvstice> *-)
<inJvstice> now moving down, the second row….
<inJvstice> ando = nd, umbar = mb, anga =ng, and ungwe = nge
<inJvstice> these are the ‘original’ quenya values
<inJvstice> since in quenya these are common consonant combinations
<inJvstice> we’ll hold off on english values for a moment
<inJvstice> you with me on the second row?
<Lothengriol> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yep
<inJvstice> no if you want, appendix E actually give all the values for both english and quenya
<inJvstice> you have to read through it a bit to fingure it all out
<inJvstice> so let me digress here for a moment and go to a point I should have stated first…..
<inJvstice> that is the tengwar is a system of writing phonetics
<inJvstice> that is to say each tengwar represents a particular sound
<inJvstice> so you can use the same symbols (tengwar) to represnt sounds in diffrent languages
<inJvstice> useing the Roman characters (the ones we are typing with) to write english, french, or spanish
<inJvstice> sorta
<inJvstice> to change modes or languages though the values will change
<inJvstice> o.k. for an idea of differnt modes go here
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
<inJvstice> let me know when yer there
<Lothengriol> you expect too much of me, just go on
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’m there. More popups. Great.
<inJvstice> wierd no popup here again
<inJvstice> oh well scroll down and find the link to English language
<Maeglin_Lomion> Got it, clicked it….much better descriptions for the letters! 🙂
<inJvstice> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Fewer popups too.
<inJvstice> this give you good values for useing the tengwar to write english words
<inJvstice> the other tree links on the homepage there give values for quenya, sindarin classical, and sindarin beleriand
<Maeglin_Lomion> Nice charts to print.
<inJvstice> ues I recommend printing them
<inJvstice> if you can
<inJvstice> or at least copying them to a harddrive
<Maeglin_Lomion> doing that now. 🙂
<inJvstice> you’ll notice that the basic chart does not contain any vowels
<inJvstice> what you have in the basic chart is the consonantal values
<Lothengriol> because it is an “ancient” language
<inJvstice> the vowels are actually extra characters called tethar (or tetha in the singular)
<inJvstice> are you guys still on english?
<inJvstice> the chart that is?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I am.
<inJvstice> kewl
<Lothengriol> I am just using books
<inJvstice> Lothengriol, you are in ROTK?
<Lothengriol> and Noel
<inJvstice> k
<inJvstice> in ROTK look at the title page there are tengwar inscriprions there
<inJvstice> you’ll the consonant characters with some other marks above some of them
<Lothengriol> the vowels?
<inJvstice> yes
<Lothengriol> got it
<inJvstice> in quenya the tethar are written above the preceeding consonant
<inJvstice> so you would read each tengwar then the tetha above it
<inJvstice> this is difficult to do in this chat cause I really need to demonstrate
<inJvstice> bleh
<inJvstice> so in sindarin (and english) the vowel is placed above the succeeeding consonant
<inJvstice> reading the tethe then the tengwar beneth it
<inJvstice> tetha.
<inJvstice> follw me here?
<Lothengriol> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> What printing of ROTK are you looking at where there is Tengwar in the title page? I have a paperback printing from 1969 of the trilogy.
<inJvstice> oh there is not tengwar inscriptions on the title page?
<Lothengriol> ’65
<Maeglin_Lomion> Not on the ’69 Ballantyne Books printing.
<inJvstice> ahhh
<inJvstice> didn’t know that
<inJvstice> every copy I have or have seen has it
<inJvstice> wierd
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve got Dwarven runes.
<inJvstice> what about on the bottom of the page?
<inJvstice> do you have any of the “HOME” series?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Ack…yes, you’re right. D’oh..! 🙂
<inJvstice> o.k.
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve got HoME
<inJvstice> now that is written in English ‘mode’
<inJvstice> all of HoME has inscriptions too
<inJvstice> the Professor does give enough information in Appen E to translate that inscription
<inJvstice> o.k. I’m having problems trnaslating the LOTR title page inscirption…hehehe
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ll wait till I’m offline to try it. 🙂
<Lothengriol> same here
<inJvstice> I wanted to do so for you so you’d get a sence of it
<inJvstice> lets see here
<inJvstice> do you see the anga character a little to the right
<inJvstice> it has two open bows to the left and a stem the extends down
<inJvstice> anga is the third on the second row of the chat
<inJvstice> chart
<Lothengriol> ok
<inJvstice> that stands for j
<inJvstice> the next one is h
<inJvstice> after that is n
<inJvstice> no. 33 on the chart is the h
<inJvstice> no. 17 on the chart is n
<inJvstice> got me
<inJvstice> ?
<Lothengriol> e?
<inJvstice> first of all do you see these three tengwar on the LOTR title page?
<Lothengriol> yes
<inJvstice> k
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<inJvstice> now no. 17 (the one that represnts ‘n’) has a curl above it
<Maeglin_Lomion> About 1/3 of the way thru the 1st line
<inJvstice> the curl opens to the right
<inJvstice> yes thats it
<Maeglin_Lomion> What’s the curl thingy?
<inJvstice> the curl above the ‘n’ is the tetha for ‘o’
<inJvstice> therefore you have j – h – on
<inJvstice> john
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, I see that on the tetha chart
<Maeglin_Lomion> John in JRRT 🙂
<inJvstice> since he was writing in English the tetha comes above the following tengwa
<inJvstice> yes
<inJvstice> then the next word will be ronald
<inJvstice> 25, 17, 27, 5
<inJvstice> with the tetha for
<inJvstice> ‘o’ and ‘a’ above the 17 and 27 respectivly
<inJvstice> still with me here?
<Maeglin_Lomion> I follow you
<inJvstice> Lothengriol?
<Lothengriol> yes, but my paperback and my hardbound have different vowel marks
<inJvstice> ohhh
<Aeran> me too
<inJvstice> ahh aeran is here too
<inJvstice> kewl
<Aeran> the hardbound makes more sense
<inJvstice> prolly easier to read
<Lothengriol> clearer
<Aeran> wait..maybe they are the same…the first word is ‘of’ Are there two ways to write that?
<Maeglin_Lomion> My paperback seems to go along with the chart on the website
<inJvstice> there are two ways to write ‘of’
<inJvstice> you can use no. 10 with the rightopening curl to denote ‘of’
<inJvstice> or you can use 14 with the stem extending down and up
<inJvstice> which is more phoetically correct…ov
<inJvstice> that is the word we write as of, is pronounced oov
<inJvstice> ov
<inJvstice> the inscription should then be ‘of west march by john ronald ruel tolkien
<inJvstice> that is up to the colon about 4 fiths of the way along the top line
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/
<inJvstice> contains a tengwar textbook which is very veyr useful and helpful
<inJvstice> stragnely enough I’ve been at this for about an hour now…*-)
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks for the textbook link!
<Aeran> this is great fun
<inJvstice> kewl
<Lothengriol> thanks for everything
<inJvstice> I’m going to end this here for tonight
<inJvstice> and assign some homework
<Lothengriol> groan
<inJvstice> *chuckle*
<Aeran> yay
<inJvstice> for next week
<inJvstice> try to get the title page inscription translated
<Aeran> can we check our answers? :))
<inJvstice> it is a good starting point
<inJvstice> injvstice at frodocoita.com
<Maeglin_Lomion> I know where the cheat links are on that page. 🙂
<inJvstice> lol
<inJvstice> yes there is a cheat page online
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks, inJvstice
<Lothengriol> yes, thanks
<inJvstice> I have to admit this is hard to do without being able to demonstrate
<Lothengriol> you did a great job
<Maeglin_Lomion> You did fine!
Action: Aeran agrees
<inJvstice> *blush*
<inJvstice> *chuckle*
<inJvstice> well try to get the title page translated, don’t worry about the top of the page that is the Cirith
<inJvstice> or Dwarf Runes
<Maeglin_Lomion> I’ve downloaded the textbooks in the links to check out at a later time.
<inJvstice> I’ll get to those later
<Lothengriol> oh, and I was going for extra credit
<inJvstice> *chucklE*
<inJvstice> o.k. extra credit for the Cirith
Action: Maeglin_Lomion graduated from school too long ago…forgot what homework is. 🙂
<inJvstice> well good night and good luck
<Maeglin_Lomion> ‘nite
<Lothengriol> thanks again
<Aeran> thanks, nite
<inJvstice> yer welcome