<Gorlab> Say Annatar, what time do you have?
<jincey> it is about that time
<Annatar> It’s time
<Gorlab> Well then…
<Gorlab> Welcome to our fourth installment…
<Gorlab> of Elvish 101…
<jincey> : )
<Annatar> where we wil bee delving yet further into..
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> hello
<Gorlab> (hello, hello)
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> where am i?
<Annatar> nouns
<Gorlab> The mysteries of the Elvish Tongues…
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> cool
<Gorlab> specifically Nouns….
<Gorlab> And for a short review…
<Annatar> and/or
<Gorlab> and/or some pronouns…
<Gorlab> We have been over spelling conventions…
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> um
<Gorlab> We have covered pronunciation….
<Annatar> and the Quenya case system
<Gorlab> And now we are able to identify things via Nouns….
<athelas> What if this is your first time in here?
<Annatar> take notes
<Gorlab> and have gone over the main way to modify a Noun using case endings…
<jincey> we have the logs from previous lessons posted
<Gorlab> If this is your first time here, sit back and enjoy…
<athelas> ok thanks
<Gorlab> There are no life threatening tests here…
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> this is my first time in hwere
<elen_sila_lumennomentilievo> here
<Guest1> aww no life threatening?
<Annatar> just a little lenition and declension
<Gorlab> So now, we continue with Nouns.
<Gorlab> In Quenya,
<Gorlab> we learned that it is a language pieced together a bit like a jigsaw puzzle…
<Annatar> take a stem, and add some endings
<Gorlab> Tolkien, in his “Etymologies” (found in The Lost Road – Volume 5 of the History of Middle earth)
<Gorlab> has created lists of stems and roots…
<Gorlab> these stems and roots…
<Gorlab> are our base words…
<Annatar> to make new words and phrases
<Gorlab> which are modified with the use of Affixes…
<Gorlab> whether it’s prefixes, infixes, or suffixes….
<Gorlab> These endings can be combined with these bases stems and roots…
<Gorlab> to create different meanings…
<Gorlab> Quenya can have long compund word structures…
<Gorlab> That may appear daunting…
<jincey> are thes lists user friendly?
<Gorlab> but is really just a different way of organizing information…
<Gorlab> These lists can be diciphered,
<Gorlab> but that will most likely be a lesson unto itself..
<jincey> ok
<Gorlab> unless Annatar has anything to add?
<Annatar> Helge of Ardalambion fame has made using the charts easier
<Gorlab> with his indexes of the Etymologies…
<Gorlab> Also, the introduction of the Etymologies by Christopher Tolkien…
<Gorlab> “to” the Etymologies, rather
<Gorlab> allows one to understand the basic format with which Tolkien was working…
<Gorlab> as for nouns and Quenya…
<Gorlab> These are a bit different when you approach Sindarin…
<Annatar> Now I’d like to address the tricksy situation of Sindarin sound-change
<Annatar> In Quenya, as we discussed last week, you modify a noun by adding a beginning or ending
<Annatar> that’s the affix
<Gorlab> In English, we tend to do this…
<Gorlab> by adding, say, an “s” for plurals…
<Gorlab> Car.
<Gorlab> Cars.
<Annatar> In Sindarin, however, putting word in a new grammatical situation changes its pronunciation and spelling
<Annatar> The plural, that is, changing the “number” a noun has is a good example of this
<jincey> how many endings are there?
<Annatar> In Quenya, one usually adds a suffix such as “i” to make word plural
<Annatar> gorlab?
<Gorlab> In Quenya there are quite a few…
<Gorlab> But when one becomes used to what these affixes (beginnings, middles, and endings) represent…
<Gorlab> It is no different than having to “know” how you modify words in english….
<Aysel> can you suggest some favorite books on Elvis and writing too.?
<Aysel> Elvish!
<Annatar> if you know the word and the case, you just use a noun chart to determine the plural ending
<Aysel> sorry.
<Gorlab> So you modify the Sindarin Noun to make it plural by…..
<Annatar> MUTATION!
<Annatar> that’s right, mutation
<Gorlab> (The best Elvish source material is by far on the web…)
<Maeglin_Lomion> So palantir (sing.) & palantiri (pl.) is Quenya?
<Gorlab> Yes!
<Elessar_T> www.ardalambion.com is a good page
<Annatar> essentially, it’s a case of changing the vowels, a mechanism called UMLAUT
<Gorlab> “Umlaut”…a Germanic word meaning literally “sound change”
<Annatar> UMLAUT means you modify the vowels a good example in English is goose-geese
<Annatar> or man-men
<Gorlab> We don’t say Gooses…
<Gorlab> We say Geese….
<Maeglin_Lomion> Mellon –> mellyn is Sindarin?
<Gorlab> We have mutated the “oo” into “ee”
<Annatar> a good example in Sindarin is Adan (man)–Edain (men)
<Catherine> though Adan and Edain sound similer…
<Annatar> Another good LOTR example would be Amon (hill) Emyn (hills)
<Annatar> Who knows a place name that uses Amon?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Amon Hen
<Annatar> Right
<Annatar> What about Emyn?
<Catherine> Emyn Muil?
<Gorlab> Yes.
<Annatar> Exactly!
<Annatar> Would you like to know how it works?
<Gorlab> Yes! Yes! Tell us!!!
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<Catherine> sure
<Guest1> yup
<Annatar> The basic idea…
<Annatar> is that there was once, in the common ancester language to Quenya and Sindarin,
<Gorlab> (Common Eldarin)
<Annatar> the parctice of adding “I” tp the end of a word to make it plural,
<Annatar> as is still done in some of the cases in Quenya
<Catherine> L or I?
<Annatar> I, like “me”
<Elessar_T> I, or i if you prefer
<Catherine> ok, thanks
<Annatar> or “i”
<Annatar> that “i” is no longer there but we can hear its effects
<Annatar> the vowels change to “become more like i”
<Annatar> so A becomes AI, A becomes E, and O becomes Y
<Annatar> Gnerally, this effect is “stronger
<Annatar> sorry,
<Annatar> “Stronger”, in the final syllable, which is closer to the “ghost i”
<Annatar> Gorlab can direct you to a cool chart that lays all of that out, what was that URL?
<Gorlab> So vowel changes in root nouns display the plural…
<Gorlab> There is a chart on a site known as “Mellonath Daeron”
<Annatar> that’s it!
<Gorlab> And also some other Sindarin Mutation information on a site called “Gwaith-i-phedain”…
<Aysel> thank you so much! enjoyed this.
<Annatar> we have a link to the site on frodocoita.com, and so does Ardalambion
<Gorlab> both of which can be reached through Helge Fauskanger’s “Ardalambion” site links
<Annatar> I do not wish tp monopolize this dicussion with Sindaring sound-change, but it’s helpful to understand it if you’re trying to learn it
<Gorlab> So the main difference in Quenya and Sindarin Noun structure….
<Maeglin_Lomion> What is the meaning of the -ath suffixed to Mellon?
<Annatar> is affixation vs. umlaut, to be geeky about it
<Annatar> good question Maeglin
<Gorlab> Is that Quenya organizes the information in discrete affixes, and meaningful sentences are put together like a jigsaw puzzle…
<Annatar> that is the Sindarin “Class Plural”
<Gorlab> While Sindarin uses mutation, yes…but not only for Noun Plurals…
<Maeglin_Lomion> Collective?
<Annatar> yes
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Gorlab> Consonants can mutate as well…
<Gorlab> for other parts of speech…
<Catherine> Just when I thought I had vowels down… lol
<Annatar> when one wants to refer to “all tree people” and not just a specific group to calss plural can be used
<Annatar> galadhrim
<Annatar> Haradrin
<Annatar> Pherrianath
<Annatar> periannath, haradrim, actually
<Gorlab> (tree-people, souh-people, halfling-folk)
<Gorlab> (er, south-people)
<Annatar> this is handy, when trying to devise an ordinary plural seems like a bit of a steep undertaking
<Folken-sama> Tolkien and trees?
<Annatar> The best analysis of theses changes is in the Ardalambion essay “Sindarin, the noble tongue”
<Annatar> Mellanath Daeron has the clearest chart laid out
<Gorlab> Now, not all examples of Sindarin (or Quenya) are “attested”
<Annatar> That is, written by Tolkien i that form or uaage
<Gorlab> Some of these systems of affixes and mutation have been carefully analyzed…
<Gorlab> discussed on the old Tolk-lang disscusion group…
<Annatar> and some are simplified for easy , casual use
<Gorlab> written about in the journals “Vinyar Tengwar” and “Parmaeldalamberon”
<Annatar> those are the serious ones
<Gorlab> and ultimately derived into a pattern..
<Gorlab> that makes the most sense…
<Gorlab> Those indeed, are the serious ones and new students should not be swayed by the seeming number of affixes or mutational forms…
<Annatar> how about those Quenya pronouns, hih?
<Gorlab> It IS possible to create simple, easy, and expressive sentences in both languages…
<Gorlab> Ah…to touch upon Quenya pronouns….
<Gorlab> In English, they appear as seperate words…
<Gorlab> “I”
<Gorlab> “You”
<Gorlab> “He”
<Annatar> me?
<Gorlab> “She”
<Annatar> her?
<Gorlab> “It”
<jincey> it
<jincey> them
<Gorlab> “They”
<Annatar> its………….
<Elessar_T> but in quenya…
<Annatar> get on with it
<Gorlab> But in Quenya…
<Elessar_T> they’re suffixes
<Gorlab> they appaer as suffixes..
<Annatar> Latin, spanish Russian and other speakers should be familiar with this scheme
<Gorlab> “-nye” is “You”, although it can be shortened to “n”
<Gorlab> and words that already end in “n”…
<Gorlab> absorb the “n” into itself.
<Elessar_T> Gorlab, sorry to correct you, but “-nye”/”-n” means “I”
<Annatar> yes, 2nd person uses lye
<Gorlab> pardon me, yes….
<Annatar> 1st sigular uses nye
<Annatar> the principle being that you just tack it on the end of the noun-stem as a suffix
<Gorlab> “he” in English is “-ro” in Quenya
<Annatar> verb-stem, rather,
<Gorlab> “she” is “-re”
<Maeglin_Lomion> What is absorbing the “n” into itself…does that mean the word is spelled the same whether it’s singular or plural? (Sorry to backtrack)
<Gorlab> and “they” are “-nte”
<Annatar> yes, it sinks almost without a trace
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks.
<Gorlab> It avoids double “n”
<Catherine> I thought -s was for he/she/it
<Gorlab> “-s” is for “it”
<jincey> could you please type out the examples?
<Gorlab> Sure,…
<Catherine> Ah, I see. thank you
<jincey> hoe this appears?
<jincey> how
<Gorlab> “na”, is Present tense Verb “to be”
<Gorlab> when we add the suffix “n”, (English “I”)….
<Gorlab> we get the word “nan”
<Annatar> to quote from Helge, Example: lendë “went”, lenden or lendenyë “I went”,
<Gorlab> Which means “I am”
<jincey> thanks : )
<Annatar> Bringing us dangerously close to the domain of “The Verb”
<Elessar_T> or to quote Namarië: “hiruvalye” = “thou shall find”
<Gorlab> if we use this formula for the other pronouns using “na”, (English “is”)
<Gorlab> We get:
<Elessar_T> no, that verb is to unknown
<Gorlab> “nalye” which is “thou art”
<Gorlab> “naro” which is “he is”
<Gorlab> “nare” which is “she is”
<Annatar> I didn’t unknow that 😉
<Gorlab> “nas” which is “it is”
<Elessar_T> but in english, present tense of to be has 3 forms
<Elessar_T> we can’t be sure wether Tolkien intended this to be the case in Quenya as well
<Annatar> But for these purposes we’re try to beliwve it is the case
<Annatar> so as to build a speakable construct
<Gorlab> I believe that about wraps it up…if anyone has any questions feel free to e-mail me at Zorniod@hotmail.com
<Annatar> however, it is not , as you observed, attested
<jincey> thanks gorlab and annatar : ))
<Gorlab> Thankyou so much for coming and showing interest – you people are truly wonderful!!
Gorlab [jirc@adsl-158-77-165.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
<jincey> what is next week?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you and Annatar for being here for us.
<Guest1> yeah thanks
<Elessar_T> ok, this was interesting… but I better go to bed now
<Annatar> right now, we’re trying to get to “the Verb” so we can start making some Quenya sentences
<jincey> ok : )
<Lastar> kewl
<Elessar_T> Mara lome
<Maeglin_Lomion> Namárië
<Annatar> Namarie
<jincey> namarie : )
Month: July 2003
New Line’s Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring strolled away with two awards from the 2003 Home Entertainment Awards. FoTR took out Marketing Campaign of the Year as well as the award for Special Edition DVD of the Year from a Major Studio. The awards are organised by the Video Software Dealers Association (VSDA) – read on to check out the full list of winners. [More]
Brandon Gray from boxofficemojo.com writes: On Monday, ‘Finding Nemo’ swam past ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ on the All Time chart to rank as the 11th highest grossing picture of all time. ‘Nemo’ has taken in $313,820,324 in 60 days, while ‘Fellowship’ grossed $313,364,114 in its entire run — now at No. 12. ‘The Two Towers’ stands at $339,734,454, a tally that ‘Nemo’ has a chance at eclipsing as well. [More]
Jackie writes: I just wanted to let you know that I saw some really cool videos the other day about the comicon in San Diego—it’s got interviews with a few LOTR people, some convention stuff and a couple of video games. [More]
The world’s largest exhibition and conference of computer graphics Siggraph 2003 has opened in San Diego, California. An animation team from New Zealand is providing one of the main attractions as they showcase the animation technology used in the creation of the Lord of the Rings films. [More]
The lucky folks at CHUD (Cinematic Happenings Under Development) sat down with Sean Astin (Sam) and Dominic Monaghan (Merry) while at Comic-Con 2003 a few weeks ago. Take a look! [More]