Ananova is reporting how Orlando Bloom (Legolas) is to star in Blue’s new music video. [More] Thanks to Solinas for the link.
Month: July 2003
As you can tell from the webcam, things have become quite busy at TheOneRing.net booth and the LOTR Pavilion. Preview night will be going on for another 45 minutes and we’ll keep the cam up the entire time. Look for a detailed report tonight on TheOneRing.net tonight.
Christopher writes: The Perry brothers are sculptors for Games Workshop. They have their own side business making historical miniatures. They went to NZ to spend a few weeks with PJ (can I come next PJ? -Xo). Turns out he is a big miniatures fan and he commisioned some really nice WWI figures from them. The site has a section showing the models they made as well as a short video of PJ and the Perry Bros doing some sculpting. If you look closely, they are in some sort of prop/prosthetic room- surrounded by orc faces. Not any mentions of LOTR other than a nice bit where PJ remarks how he ought to be editting but is having too much fun sculpting. [More]
DB writes: I have an incredible account from Susuanne who was not just able to attend the recent Viggo poetry reading in Denmark, but also the invitation only art exhibit opening, the day before! Susanne’s account is very uplifting & funny. It includes over 100 photos & 3 large film clips from the poetry reading. [More]
Here’s the transcript of Elvish lesson #3
*** Log file opened: 7/9/2003
[Gorlab] Aiya!
[Gorlab] Elvish are real languages…
[Gorlab] They have a comprehensive structure…meaning…
[Gorlab] Really they are best termed a simulated language…
[Gorlab] A lesson in linguistics and code…
[Gorlab] More than some “practical” speech of an existing language in the primary world…
[Gorlab] It may be odd when you think about it,
[Gorlab] but Tolkien created his languages first and then created stories based on it…
[Gorlab] not the other way around.
[Gorlab] So as a work of art, the elvish languages have an absolute validity towards studying them…
[Gorlab] as one would study a piece of music by composers…
[Gorlab] Hello everyone!
[Gorlab] And welcome to another zany installment of Elvish 101…
[Gorlab] Tonight’s episode: The Elvish Noun!
[Annatar] Greetings
[Gorlab] Tonight Kris Nelson, (as Gorlab) and Paul Dunne and Jeff Sherrill (as Injvstice_Annatar) will conduct tonight’s chat…
[inJvstice_Annatar] Excellent
[Gorlab] We are zoning in on the Noun tonight.
[Gorlab] Nouns, of course, are Person, Place, or thing….
[Gorlab] Idea, Animal, Mineral, or Vegetable…
[PippinSkywalker] I wonder what category I fit into
[inJvstice_Annatar] Nouns operate by very different systems in Sindarin vs. Quenya
[neitmol] probably idea
[Gorlab] The source for most Nouns can be found in the “Etymologies”
[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya they are heavily inflected, whereas in Sindarin there is very little inflection
[Gorlab] Quenya nouns are full of affixes…
[inJvstice_Annatar] btw, the Ardalambion site is also a good source for noun lists
[inJvstice_Annatar] go ahead Gorlab
[Gorlab] These are letters or groups of letters inserted into different places in a word
[Gorlab] pre-fix = before the word
[Gorlab] in-fix = in the middle of a word
[Gorlab] suf-fix = at the end of the word
[Gorlab] Quenya nouns are “inflected” by “case” forms…
[inJvstice_Annatar] and by number
[Gorlab] There are 10 cases that have different endings attached….
[inJvstice_Annatar] there are 8-9 cases…
[inJvstice_Annatar] or 10
[inJvstice_Annatar] *-)
[Gorlab] with one mystery case… but that’s not important right now…
[Gorlab] The UN-inflected form of the noun is the noun itself…
[Gorlab] The Nominative form
[lotr_chick] is Sindarin difficult to learn?
[Gorlab] “house” is a noun
[Gorlab] Not too difficult, no….
[PippinSkywalker] harder or easier than Quenya?
[inJvstice_Annatar] yes because of the phonological changes
[Gorlab] None of the Elvish languages are when you get used to the rules…
[inJvstice_Annatar] basically in Sindarin phonological changes denote a change from singular to plural
[inJvstice_Annatar] however, Sindarin does not use case ending, per se
[lotr_chick] oh
[Gorlab] It seems like a lot of information, but really it is simply a reorganization of the way information is presented within a language…
[inJvstice_Annatar] noun relationships depend on word order and prepositions
[neitmol] like Spanish…
[Gorlab] you see, what the case endings actually are, are the prepositions of English…
[Gorlab] We would say “book”
[Gorlab] In Quenya, it is “parma”
[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya these relationships are determined by case, such as the Nominative, to return Gorlab to the subject
[Gorlab] In English, I would say “on the book”
[Gorlab] But Quenya only has one word for it:
[Gorlab] “parmasse”
[Ide] no more complicated than German, really.
[neitmol] how would you say that?]
[Maeglin_Lomion] Or Latin
[inJvstice_Annatar] That is an example of the Locative case
[Gorlab] the “-sse” ending is the Locative case…
[lotr_chick] what part of parmasse is book then
[Gorlab] parma
[inJvstice_Annatar] which function for in and on
[Gorlab] Pahr-MAH-seh
[neitmol] hmm
[neitmol] so this is Quenya
[Gorlab] Yes, Quenya grammar is similar to Latin
[inJvstice_Annatar] -sse- would then be the Locative affix
[Gorlab] Sindarin grammar is similar to Welsh
[inJvstice_Annatar] though Quenya actually cases than Latin
[inJvstice_Annatar] or about as many
[inJvstice_Annatar] Actually Sindarin mutation (phonological) is like Welsh
[neitmol] So what would be more functional of the two forms of Elvish?
[neitmol] Sindarin?
[Gorlab] Either and Niether…
[inJvstice_Annatar] Quenya is more ‘ready made’
[neitmol] right…
[inJvstice_Annatar] but Sindarin is what you get in LOTR
[lotr_chick] so they are just as hard to learn?
[Gorlab] Niether language can be spoken in complete fluency…
[lotr_chick] oh
[Gorlab] Even Tolkien was not a native speaker…
[neitmol] except by the elves of course
[PippinSkywalker] LOL
[neitmol] 🙂
[inJvstice_Annatar] lotr_chick, the difficulty is up to you
[lotr_chick] ok
[inJvstice_Annatar] there are generally more and easier to understand means to learn Quenya
[neitmol] if one has a grasp of both forms
[neitmol] one can actually…figure it out
[inJvstice_Annatar] however, you get more Canonical Sindarin
[neitmol] from both forms
[Gorlab] But you CAN learn to read, write, and write in Tengwar with a certain degree of fluency…
[neitmol] ok
[inJvstice_Annatar] back to the noun, We’ve mentioned the Nominative and Locative case
[neitmol] let us move back to nouns then
[inJvstice_Annatar] We’ll get to Tenqwar another day
[Gorlab] Yes, indeed…the Dative case…
[Gorlab] is the ending (or suffix) “-n”
[Gorlab] it functions as the prepositions “for” or “to”
[inJvstice_Annatar] such as
[inJvstice_Annatar] in English that would be the ‘indirect object’
[Gorlab] ni = “me”
[Gorlab] nin ” “for me”
[neitmol] or “to me” ?
[inJvstice_Annatar] yes
[Gorlab] (Perhaps the Knights of Ni were shouting “me me me” the whole time?)
[inJvstice_Annatar] *gives neitmol a star*
[lotr_chick] so is the n for?
[Gorlab] (sorry)
[Maeglin_Lomion] 🙂 Gorlab
[snuh] lol
[neitmol] to indicate whether the subject is for or to something…
[inJvstice_Annatar] in Sindarin the noun is made Dative by place by placing it directly after the subject
[inJvstice_Annatar] an example Onen i-Estel Edain
[inJvstice_Annatar] in this case ‘Edain’ is the indirect object
[inJvstice_Annatar] the direct object is i-Estel
[neitmol] hope
[Gorlab] Yes…
[inJvstice_Annatar] So to correct my earlier example you have Onen (I gave), i-Estel (the hope), Edain (to the Dunedain)
[Maeglin_Lomion] What is the nominative form of Edain?
[neitmol] edai?
[Maeglin_Lomion] I was wondering that too, never seen Edai used.
[neitmol] I remember in the extended edition of Fellowship
[neitmol] Edai was used
[neitmol] by Haldir
[neitmol] in a flet
[neitmol] mentioning Aragorn of the Edai
[neitmol] n
[inJvstice_Annatar] in Sindarin Edan is singular, Edain is plural
[inJvstice_Annatar] sorry Adan, not Edan
[neitmol] okay
[Maeglin_Lomion] Now, that’s confusing! 🙂
[neitmol] 🙂
[Gorlab] Which corresponds to Atan in Quenya
[Gorlab] Atani plural
[Maeglin_Lomion] Ni, nin – Adan, Edain?
[Maeglin_Lomion] Quenya nouns seem easier to learn.
[inJvstice_Annatar] that is an example of plural mutation in Sindarin
[inJvstice_Annatar] Maeglin, Quenya sentance structure is harder to learn
[inJvstice_Annatar] Since the case causes all sorts of things we do not do in English
[Gorlab] Speak like Yoda you will if Quenya learn you must…
[neitmol] heh
[Gorlab] the Ablative case…
[Maeglin_Lomion] Ahhh…. now that’s not difficult. Also similar to Latin or German sentence structure. OK, thanks.
[Gorlab] has the ending “-llo”
[Gorlab] and means “from out of”
[Gorlab] “Sindanoriello”
[Gorlab] “from out of a grey-land”
[Maeglin_Lomion] Sounds Italian
[inJvstice_Annatar] it does a bit
[neitmol] pronounced?
[Gorlab] The stress and phonology IS a bit Italian sounding…
[inJvstice_Annatar] sin dah NOR yellow
[neitmol] So this is still Sindarin?
[Gorlab] sinda = grey
[Gorlab] norie = “country”
[Gorlab] -llo = “out of”
[inJvstice_Annatar] you’ll find this example in “Namarie” in FOTR
[inJvstice_Annatar] any questions here?
[Maeglin_Lomion] So “Singollo” (Thingol) would be “of the grey cloak?”
[inJvstice_Annatar] approximately
[inJvstice_Annatar] it is short of Sindacollo
[inJvstice_Annatar] oops that is short FOR Sindacollo
[Maeglin_Lomion] So there are a lot of elisions and mutations here…?
[Gorlab] Got your ablative mixed up with your dative…:)
[inJvstice_Annatar] yes very much so
[Gorlab] A few elisions in Quenya…
[inJvstice_Annatar] that can bring us to Dative case
[Gorlab] Sindarin has most of the softening characteristics of mutation..
[Gorlab] did Dative first…
[Gorlab] -n
[Gorlab] ni = “I”
[Gorlab] nin = “for me”
[Gorlab] Ladies and Gentleman…the Dative…
[inJvstice_Annatar] lets move on to Genitive
[Gorlab] Plural forms of the noun are added on afterwards…
[Gorlab] ah..Genetive case…
[Gorlab] has the ending “-o”
[inJvstice_Annatar] the Genitive case reflects possession or more precisely being of someone or thing
[Gorlab] and generally seems to correspond with ” ‘s “
[inJvstice_Annatar] in English
[PippinSkywalker] I though ni was me?
[Gorlab] ni changes to “me” in the Dative…
[PippinSkywalker] oh ok
[inJvstice_Annatar] thus Roma or “horn”
[Gorlab] “the book’s red words” in English…
[inJvstice_Annatar] the horn of Gondor
[Gorlab] becomes “i parmo carne quettar” in Quenya…
[inJvstice_Annatar] “Romo Gondor”
[inJvstice_Annatar] of “I romo Gondor”
[neitmol] so ni turns to no…
[inJvstice_Annatar] of=or
[Gorlab] no = ” being’s”
[neitmol] or “one’s”?
[inJvstice_Annatar] or “its”
[inJvstice_Annatar] however Sindarin does this job without cases
[Gorlab] Yes, although there are different endings for possessive pronouns…
[inJvstice_Annatar] for example, (from FOTR) Ennyn Durin Aran Moria
[inJvstice_Annatar] “Doors of Durin, King of Moria”
[inJvstice_Annatar] in this case Durin and Moria are genitive, but they take no case
[inJvstice_Annatar] word order is enough to reflect possession
[Maeglin_Lomion] So proper names don’t change for case?
[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya yes, in this case of Sindarin no
[Maeglin_Lomion] How would a person’s name change in Quenya…. example?
[inJvstice_Annatar] again from Namarie
[Gorlab] Vardo
[inJvstice_Annatar] “Vardo tellumar”
[inJvstice_Annatar] “somes of Varda”
[Maeglin_Lomion] Meaning “Varda’s?”
[inJvstice_Annatar] “domes of Varda
[inJvstice_Annatar] yes
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you.
[Gorlab] Speaking of the Namarie poem…
[Gorlab] We have a phrase that everyone here…
[Gorlab] should be able to use in a bar or other eating establishment…
[Gorlab] “Si man i yulma nin enquantuva”
[Gorlab] “Who now shall refill the cup for me?”
[inJvstice_Annatar] “yulma” is an interesting stem
[Gorlab] it is the nominative form of the noun “cup”
[Gorlab] a similar verb derivation….
[inJvstice_Annatar] because as a verb it indicates more than simple ingestion of liquid…
[inJvstice_Annatar] but rather the kind of imbibement associated with carousing
[PippinSkywalker] was the cup line Sindarin?
[inJvstice_Annatar] Quenya
[Gorlab] Namarie is a poem in Quenya…
[PippinSkywalker] ok
[Gorlab] because Galadriel was the last of the Noldorin exiles to stay in Middle Earth…
[Gorlab] which is why her people spoke Sindarin…
[inJvstice_Annatar] perhaps they said it on Gondolin after a hard days work
[Gorlab] but she still knew the speech of the blessed land of light..
[inJvstice_Annatar] Gondolin
[Gorlab] yulme is the verb “to drink”
[Gorlab] but specifically to drink with carousal in mind..
[Gorlab] simply to ingest fluid is “sucin”
[Maeglin_Lomion] Connotative 😉
[Gorlab] exactly, its connotation is different!
[inJvstice_Annatar] Remember, “c” is “k”
[Gorlab] So, at this point I must wish you a toast to the fair people of Elvish 101…thank you so much for coming…..
[Maeglin_Lomion] Tolkien had a sense of humor 🙂
[inJvstice_Annatar] he did indeed, the stem for cat is apparently “miauo”
[Gorlab] we will have another exciting installation of Tolkien’s humorous in-jokes in one week’s time…
[Gorlab] doves are called “cu”
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thanks for the lessons, I’m logging these chats for person reference.
[Gorlab] Namarie!
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[jincey] : )
[inJvstice_Annatar] in the meantime,, look up the derivation for Smaug, not Elvish, but funny, Namarie
[Maeglin_Lomion] Smog? Dragon-breath? 😉
[inJvstice_Annatar] Goodnight, “Mara Lomme”
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jincey asks how are y’all liking these lessons?
[Maeglin_Lomion] Love ’em! Thanks for bringing these guys to us, jinc.
[PippinSkywalker] great grammar by Elvish! LOL
[jincey] i wish y’all could see them in person
[jincey] they are great : )
[jincey] they do sessions at Dragon*Con
[PippinSkywalker] oh!
Just a brief note to tell everyone that our booth is set up. Expect pictures to be posted during preview night tonight. After a few technical difficulties, we have the webcam broadcasting live from our booth, so check it out! [Webcam]