Hall of Fire chat log: aspects of heroism in the Fellowship
Pages: 1 2
Session Start: Sun Jul 28 07:32:18 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: aspects of heroism among the Fellowship. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] We might as well kick this off. So … by popular demand … we return to our heroism topic … but we’re looking only at the Fellowship this time.
[RubyRed] The book or the Fellowship after it formed?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Puma
[Demosthenes] the latter RubyRed. The Nine Walkers.
[Erkenbrand] hey puma
[PippinFTW] RubyRed the actual Felloship, I think
[RubyRed] Thank you
[Puma] while aragorn is a prototypical myth hero.frodo…and sam….are very 20th century heroes
[RiverSong] I think that while Aragorn follows the traditional “hero” form that he is not the most heroic of the group.
[Demosthenes] I think last week we established that the linguistic roots of heroism means a protector or a defender. (from greek)
[Puma] gday Erkenbrand
[Demosthenes] Which is very very broad.
[RiverSong] The hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry are flung into situations which they did not ask to be a part of. Each one of them acts in a way that is better for the whole, rather than just for self.
[ChristineGolden] Well, it’s certainly multi-faceted, Demosthenes.
[Erkenbrand] I think that Sam is the most heroic of the fellowship, he is determined to finish the quest even taking up the ring from Frodo’s (he thinks) dead body
[Rosgobelrabbit] Everybody say the name of the character you thunk is teh most heroic
[Demosthenes] riversong: “are flung into situations which they did not ask to be a part of.” [– i find that important.
[RubyRed] I disagree River..they did ask to be part of the fellowship. Volunteered, in fact
[Demosthenes] In comparison to the others: Boromir and Aragorn and etc.
[Puma] there are different types of heroes.they cant be measured against one another
[ChristineGolden] I think the most heroic moment in the book is when Sam steps outside the Shire for the first time in his life.
[RiverSong] Not with the understanding that the others have.
[PippinFTW] RiverSong I think Frodo and Sam were really the ones that were flung into the situations. Merry and Pippin, however, were really eager to go.
[Jenniearcheo] I like that, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, as Elrond pointed out, if they knew the true danger they may not have
[Erkenbrand] I think that for Sam, it is when he is prepared to carry on to Mount Doom alone after thinking that Frodo is dead
[TolkienGirl] Ugh. WiFi is about to cut out on me. I’ll talk to you guys later! Have fun! Love y’all! BYE!
[RiverSong] I think for Merry and Pippin is was just a romp. They don’t become heroes till they meet Tree Beard, but they are.
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, neither did Frodo, as Gandalf pointed out
[Demosthenes] jennie: true!
[PippinFTW] bye TolkienGirl!
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, Jennie, when it comes to Sam.
[Jenniearcheo] No, this was M&P specifically
[Puma] merry and pippin each grew….but from the start.merry was the most mature of hobbits
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, RiverSong.
[Demosthenes] jennie: in that sense it’s not hard to draw external parallels from the hobbits to British soldiers in WWI.
[PippinFTW] Elrond said that any member of the Fellowship could leave at any point except Frodo. So Frodo was really the one who had to go on
[Demosthenes] Who also did not know what they were getting into.
[Rosgobelrabbit] So frodo was teh
[Demosthenes] Bravery? Heroism? Foolishness?
[Rosgobelrabbit] Least heroic
[RubyRed] I think the most heroic moment is when the Fellowship ends. Frodo, takign sam reluctantly but secretly happily, leaves the fellowship and ventures into the literal unknown so he can complete his mission without risking the ring’s influence and destruction of his friends.
[Erkenbrand] Sam was the only person who might not have wanted to be in the fellowship, but felt obliged to so that he could protect frodo
[Jenniearcheo] True, Dems
[ChristineGolden] I think Merry and Pippin did not know what they were getting into, but were still willing to join the Company. In my opinion, that’s amazing, more so than Aragorn who, after all, did have a stake in the destruction of Sauron.
[Jenniearcheo] A mélange of all three, Dems?
[PippinFTW] I agree, Erkenbrand. While Frodo was bound by oath, Sam stuck with him for his safety.
[Puma] frodo and sam…are from jrr’s wwI experience.and officer and his batman
[Erkenbrand] i agree RubyRed, Frodo wanting to fulfil the quest alone in order to try and save the others
[Rosgobelrabbit] Erkenbrand true he was kinda pushed in the fellowship
[Demosthenes] jennie: that’s also likely i think.
[Demosthenes] christine: for merry and pippin the idea of what they werre fighting for was much more nebulous.
[Puma] but frodo only went to do mission by himself.due to boromir
[Demosthenes] less concrete.
[RubyRed] It was also heroism for Aragorn, legolas and Gimli to turn the other way and go after Merry and Pippin, entrusting the entirety fo the mission to Frodo and sam.
[ChristineGolden] I think the other members at least had an idea of the danger they faced, Demosthenes, but certainly not Pippin or Merry. And yet, they were there to protect and defend their friend, Frodo. Is that not heroism?
[PippinFTW] Right, RubyRed!
[Jenniearcheo] Rosgobelrabbit: I’d say Frodo’s decision to take the ring to Mordor, when he knew it was dangerous, had had a taste of that danger himself, and wanted to go home, was extremely heroic.
[Erkenbrand] Puma, even at flight to the ford, Frodo wants to go solo to keep the others out of harms way
[ChristineGolden] Why would that be heroism, RubyRed?
[Erewen] So part of heroism is the choice?
[RubyRed] Ouma..I disagree. Frodo could see the temptation would fall on all of them. That was the true danger and the true gift of having a Hobbit carry the ring.
[Jenniearcheo] He was protecting and defending not only the Shire but all of ME with this action
[Demosthenes] M&P certainly seem to be afraid, yet work through their fear and keep going.
[Puma] well……as for the hobbits.that was the point of book 1…showing them that outside the shire is not so safe
[RubyRed] Christine..because heroism is doing the hard thing, not the easy thing. Easy would have been to follow, hard was letting Frodo make that decisionn and then act according to the dictates fo their conscience
[Puma] so after rivendell.they did have an idea of danger
[Demosthenes] puma: slightly more after weathertop i agree.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Demosthenes. At first, they were fighting to protect Frodo, even though they didn’t know why. He was in danger and that was enough for them.
[Rosgobelrabbit] Frodo was good for trying to save the others and going alone
[PippinFTW] But I don’t think Merry and Pippin still understood the constant danger they would face, even after the Nazgul
[Tajik] Did they gain a bit of heroics/sense of danger after the Barrow Downs as well?
[Jenniearcheo] Merry had a taste of black breath. Still. Not quite the same as Mordor itself
[ChristineGolden] No, that’s courage, RubyRed, which is only one aspect of heroism.
[Demosthenes] tajik: a good question
[ChristineGolden] imo, of course.
[Puma] frodo went alone.because he saw the influence of the ring on another.and realized they would all fall
[RubyRed] Ros..he was correct..but already he felt the pull of the ring and at least a small part of the decison was to keep the ring safe from the others.
[RiverSong] Each character has their own heroic moments and choices to make. Tolkien wanted to show us that there are many different kinds of heroes.
[PippinFTW] Tajik I don’t know. That was such a weird scene in the book, I don’t know what to think!
[Tajik] RR or to keep the others safe from the ring?
[RubyRed] And many different ways of acting on it.
[Erkenbrand] Pippen always seems to be scared but then force himself to carry on eg, when they were attacked by wargs outside moria and at the black gate
[Jenniearcheo] I think they’re generally along to “protect and defend” Frodo. Not that they’re trained warriors and could to much more than give him companionship
[PeetaMellark] very thought provoking convos
[ChristineGolden] It doesn’t matter if Merry and Pippin understood the danger. In fact, I’d say not knowing it makes them more heroic.
[RubyRed] No, to keep the ring safe from the others. Even at this early stage of the book, the ring was influencing Frodo..
[Puma] at the black gate.pippin was not scared
[Rosgobelrabbit] Neither was merry
[Tajik] ah, yes…I keep forgetting the rings will
[Tajik] ring’s will
[ChristineGolden] Figuratively speaking, they were willing to walk off a cliff, blindfolded, to protect Frodo.
[Puma] pippins thoughts at the black gate.show the thoughts of any soldier in a hopeless situation.but it was not fear
[RubyRed] Christine…yes. That is faith.
[ChristineGolden] Faith in what?
[marco_reus] Frodo tho
[PippinFTW] After Merry and Pippin were captured by the Uruks, they had no idea whether Frodo was still alive or not, and they had no idea until they were found later by Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. Does the fact that they still kept fighting for their lives, not knowing whether their best friend was dead or not, show courage?
[Puma] frodo……had faith in gandlafs teachings
[Tajik] Have we gone over Sam’s heroics yet? Don’t want to re-hash the conversstion.
[RiverSong] That there is some good in this world, and it’s worth fighting for.
[RubyRed] Each other, the fact they were doing the right thing, that in the end it would all be worh=th it.
[Rosgobelrabbit] Pippenftw they were staying alive for themslevew
[PippinFTW] Tajik not formally. Going on and off
[RubyRed] Pippin, yes…and it shows that they believed, like Sam, that there was something worth fighting for.
[Puma] lets try and stick to 1 or 2 characters b4 moving to another
[ChristineGolden] RubyRed, when Pippin and Merry joined Frodo and Sam, they only knew that some black riders were chasing Frodo and he had to get out of the Shire.
[Tajik] Not sure that M&P thought they were doing “the right thing”
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all! Sorry I’m late as usual, but as usual, got her ASAP
[RubyRed] Pippin and Merry, most of all the Company, had no idea what would happen once the ring was destroyed..they took it on faith that this was the right thing, the only thing to do.
[ChristineGolden] They didn’t even know what the “thing” was, let alone the “right thing.”
[Jenniearcheo] They were doing what they did out of loyalty to Frodo, pretty much.
[ChristineGolden] Running later than usual, Darkover. 😉
[Demosthenes] That’s true Christine. It still seemed menacing though. and they did know of “the Enemy’s Ring”.
[Puma] friendship is an important motivator for heroism
[Darkover] Yes, Chris, sorry, (hangs head)
[RiverSong] Agreed Puma
[Jenniearcheo] But the choice at Rivendell was at least a little better informed, and therefore more heroic than the shire decision
[RubyRed] Yes, but they had been watching for him to leave, preparing witht heir “spy”, Sam, so he could not leave without them.
[Demosthenes] They weren’t completely ignorant, but I’m not sure they had an idea of the sheer scale of what they were getting into.
[RubyRed] They were firm believers in the “adventure”.
[PippinFTW] Rosgobelrabbit yes they were staying alive for themselves, but what if they were the only ones left? They could’ve been, for all they knew. And I think if that was the case and they knew it, they would’ve given up
[Puma] and m and p had been taken by old man willow and the barrowights…..and merry had faced the black breath in bree….so each had met danger b4 rivendell
[Tajik] Their acts were, it can be agreed, mostly selfless?
[Erkenbrand] Even after they knew that Gandalf and the three hunters were alive, they still carried on.
[ChristineGolden] Imo, the hobbits are the most heroic figures in the Fellowship, including Gandalf and Aragorn.
[Demosthenes] puma: and merry at Bree. Though arguably that was stupidity.
[RubyRed] Each encounter showed them to be capable of more than they thought.
[RiverSong] It’s not only important that they met danger, what’s important is that they kept going.
[Demosthenes] yes ruby. Heroism is about exceeding one’s limits, i think.
[RubyRed] Growth in person and character and self are major themes in all of JRR’s works
[Puma] Christine,the book is hobbit centric in view
[Jenniearcheo] They let their guard down at Bree because it felt more homey
[Darkover] I think there was plenty of heroism to go around, Chris. It must have been hard for both Gandalf and Aragorn to persevere, year after year.
[Demosthenes] Or being willing to try.
[PippinFTW] Puma before Rivendell there’s be danger, then they’d be safe. Then more danger, then safe. After, it’s constant danger, and I don’t think they were aware that they’d be constantly on guard
[Tajik] and doing extraordinary things when one is ordinary?
[RiverSong] Each of them had a moment they could have turned back, gone back to a safe life in the Shire. Each hobbit kept fighting.
[RubyRed] Jennie, absolutely
[Puma] there are things we can figure out for the others.even if left unsaid
[Jenniearcheo] They had an unreasonable assumption of safety in The Pony.
[Demosthenes] Tajik: that too.
[Tajik] Are we basing this discussion on the ancient Greek’s view of heroism?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, that’s what I said, “most heroic.”
[Erewen] the hobbits were probably the least prepared and ready to face such danger and they could have turned back but they didn’t. THat shows heroism I think
[Puma] Pippin.it was never constant danger…..jrr always uses action and rest.thru out the book
[Demosthenes] Tajik: it’s a starting point.
[Darkover] Arguably, doing extraordinary things is what makes an ordinary person extraordinary.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[RubyRed] Tajik, the heart of heroism is that it is always manifested in that way; doing the extraordinary in an ordinary world. Being extraordinary in an ordinary world.
[Darkover] howdy, Puma
[Tajik] should the heroic flaw be taken into account?
[Demosthenes] I think all of the fellowship would have held themselves to be ordinary people. (maybe not Boromir).
[Puma] all members of the fellowship have flaws
[RubyRed] darkover, I believe that the potential for extraordinary lives in all of us..that is the lesson.
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, Sam and Frodo don’t get much of a rest post-Lothlorien. Which is why it was such a struggle at the end just to climb the mountain.
[Darkover] I agree, RubyRed
[ChristineGolden] Only if it appears, Tajik.
[Jenniearcheo] Or Aragorn, I shouldn’t think.
[Raurenkili] who would say that Boromir died a heroic death?
[Puma] i dont agree Demz…..Aragorn never considered himself ordinary……though he was practice to seem to be ordinary
[Tajik] that and the fact that the Ring, trying to escape its own doom ,was weighing Frodo down.
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn has always known he was special
[Darkover] I would. He died defending others, and redeeming himself.
[Jenniearcheo] Between his heritage and the ranging
[RubyRed] Jennie…it wasn’t just that..the ring was weighing on them, so close to Sauron and Mount Doom. The ring wanted to be with it’s master and every step was torture.
[Puma] Boromir was certainly a hero
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, RubyRed
[Jenniearcheo] But looking at the action-rest-action-rest pattern, that’s a long period of action
[Darkover] Actually, being “special” was kind of an extra burden on Aragorn. There was a lot of responsibility that went with that, and he took it seriously.
[Tajik] Boromir died a heroic death. He even had the insight that what he was doing to Frodo was wrong and he tried to make up for it
[Raurenkili] 😀 glad you think so
[Erkenbrand] Boromir was a hero, for excepting and admitting his mistake of attacking Frodo and for defending m&p
[Demosthenes] what makes Boromir’s death heroic?
[RubyRed] Puma, I agree. Boromir was simply the first to be tempted because of the potential to help. Galadriel said that the temptation of the Ring was to do good and then become terrible.
[Puma] jrr believed in redemption
[PippinFTW] I feel like people hated Boromir because of how he wanted the Ring, which is wrong because it wasn’t his fault. But he definitely made up for it when he died a hero’s death
[ChristineGolden] They were all heroes – just in different ways.
[Darkover] Selflessness and redemption, Demosthenes. IMO, that is what made Boromir’s death heroic
[LotRQueen] Boromir didn’t know what he was doing when he tried to take the ring
[Puma] no exactly the rings effect ruby red
[Erkenbrand] I think that Aragorn was the least heroic
[ChristineGolden] He also believed in penance and atonement for one’s sins, Puma.
[PippinFTW] Dems how he selflessly defended M and P when attacked
[Tajik] Humans, being the weaker race, ware more prone to fall victim to the power of the ring.
[Demosthenes] He could have left them for dead?
[Puma] people dont need become evil………to be evil.the point is taking away the free will of others
[ChristineGolden] There can be no redemption without penance and atonement.
[Darkover] LotRQueen, Boromir knew what he was doing, but not totally. I mean, come on, sure, the Ring was working on him, but he did make a choice there.
[Puma] Tajik.not always.both aragorn and faramir could have taken the ring.but did not
[Darkover] Boromir might have fought just to save himself, Demosthenes. He didn’t. Heroism, right there.
[LotRQueen] What I meant was he was corrupted by the ring
[Tajik] being on the front lines in Minas Tirith, the choice probably seemed the most obvious/logical?
[ChristineGolden] I think he made choiceS, Darkover, that led to his downfall.
[PippinFTW] Boromir fought through many arrows to protect them. Maybe he thought that he was making up for attacking one hobbit by giving his life to protect two?
[Demosthenes] Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. ‘I tried to take the Ring from Frodo ‘ he said. ‘I am sorry. I have paid.’ His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there.
[Demosthenes] ‘They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them.’ He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again.
[Tajik] Aragorn is descended from the Dundedain
[Puma] boromir saved all the members of the fellowship by battling the orcs
[Erkenbrand] But Boromir thought that the ring would help save Minas Tirith, both Aragorn and faramir knew better
[RubyRed] Darkover, the door was opened by the ring, Boromir chose to step through. How much harder, then, to step back out, admit the mistake and fear, and then fight to save those weaker and in need fo protection?
[Jenniearcheo] He thinks he paid by killing orcs when the real price was his life
[Darkover] PippinFTW, I doubt if he was giving it *that* much thought at the time, but when he knew he was dying, that was what he meant by paying for it.
[Puma] Erkenbrand…..that was due to wisdom…which not all horoic figure have
[PippinFTW] Probably, Darkover
[Erewen] by thinking that he could use the ring to help his people it gave the ring a foothold as it were into Boromir’s mind
[RubyRed] Erken, Boromir was raised as a prince, a commander, taking his own counsel and leading his people in what was a very nasty never ending battle…the disagreement of others was a point to be considered but not a point to make a decision on
[Tajik] and soul\
[Puma] but boromir saved aragorn gimli and legolas…..by fighting the orcs
[PippinFTW] Erewen well said
[Darkover] Now, *that* is what I would go along with, RubyRed. You phrased Boromir’s temptation and error very well. But at the same time, let us not pretend that he was not responsible in any way for trying to take the Ring. That’s all I’m saying.
[Tajik] Even Gandalf and Galadriel were tempted to take the ring
[Puma] all members of the fellowship would have fallen to the ring.boromir was just 1st
[RubyRed] Agreed, darkover. Freedom of choice means sometimes, it is the wrong choice, no matter what the justification.
[PippinFTW] Tajik they weren’t tempted, but they knew that the Ring would destroy them
[Erewen] everyone was tempted in some way but the key thing is to resist the ring
[shadowfable] Agreeing with Puma, Aragorn even knew he was going to eventually be temped by the Ring, that’s why he let Frodo go on alone.
[Tajik] Galadriel admits to having overcome the temptatation
[Darkover] Maybe, Puma. We will never know for sure. We do know that all the main characters were tempted at least once–Aragorn, Gandalf, Galadriel–but they did not take it. Boromir did, although he did repent almost immediately.
[Tajik] Gandalf tells Frodo not to tempt him
[Jenniearcheo] I think the ring tried to tempt Tom but he laughed at it.
[Darkover] Right, Tajik, he did. And even Galadriel seemed a bit surprised that she passed the test.
[ChristineGolden] So, you’re saying that to be able to overcome temptation is heroic?
[RubyRed] They were all put in the way of temptation..Pippin gave in to temptation, though not to the ring.
[PippinFTW] I’m sorry Tajik I read your comment wrong you’re right
[Darkover] Tom never wanted power, I think, Jennie
[Demosthenes] christine: that’s a good question
[Jenniearcheo] It was rather barking up the wrong tree, there
[PippinFTW] bye Tajik
[RubyRed] Christine, I would say it was character more than anything else…and a firm grounding in reality. So to speak. 🙂
[Darkover] Yes, Chris, I think so. Overcoming temptation can be heroic. So can refusing to give in to it.
[Puma] the whole point of the ring.was they all would have fallen
[Puma] and i am talking fellowship members
[ChristineGolden] If I don’t give into the temptation of eating that last piece of chocolate cake, I’m being heroic? Who knew?
[Raurenkili] Frodo was shown as a weaker character in the movie
[RubyRed] It begs the question…if Bilbo had been given the task of destroying the Ring directly after the events of the Hobbit…what would have been the outcome?
[marco_reus] Bilbo would of succedded 😉
[PippinFTW] Frodo basically fell, except Gollum took the Ring. Had they not been at Mt. Doom, the Ring would once again not be destroyed
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: well, if you do that in order to help someone who’s also starving to death … maybe that is heroic?
[Erkenbrand] I think that it depends on how large the temptation is as to how heroic it is
[Puma] sauron was not as strong at that point
[Darkover] Chris, not all circumstances are identical. Although sometimes passing on chocolate cake can take some willpower, too! 😉
[RubyRed] Thus, the one act of mercy by Bilbo in the caves was what saved all of them.
[Darkover] Well put, Erkenbrand
[PippinFTW] That one act was all it took, Ruby
[ChristineGolden] That’s sacrifice, Demosthenes, not overcoming temptation.
[Darkover] Sometimes one act is all it takes, good or bad, to change things. Isildur’s refusal to destroy the Ring was one act, too.
[Demosthenes] i think it’s both.
[LotRQueen] Even Gollum is a hero. He was the one who actually got the ring into the fire.
[Puma] i always use this example of how the ring works…..if gandalf took the ring….he would have wanted to do good……so lets say he fed everyone ice cream….a very good thing.but if all you have to eat is ice cream.it becomes hateful.and evil
[ChristineGolden] The topic is heroism, Darkover, and everybody’s talking about how it’s heroic to overcome temptation.
[PippinFTW] LotrQueen yes, though by accident 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] I wouldn’t count that as heroic, Pip
[Darkover] LotRQueen, Gollum was not a hero. He did not intentionally put the Ring into the fire. He fell in with the Ring in his hand.
[RubyRed] That one small act of mercy, from a place of compassion, is what saved them all. Isildur’s act was part greed and part grief..
[Erkenbrand] Puma 😀
[RubyRed] If Isildur had not been killed and had kept the ring while the Drak Lord was so weakened…would he have bcome, himself, a dark Lord?
[Puma] and is gollum a hero or not..that would be another HoF topic
[Erkenbrand] I think that there are lots of small acts that could have changed the fate of the ring, and it is in those act that heroism lies
[ChristineGolden] exactly, Darkover. This “everybody is a hero” idea makes the term meaningless.
[PippinFTW] that’s a good one, Puma
[Darkover] Yes, RubyRed, but I was just observing that while even one small act from one small person can change things for the better, people tend to forget that unfortunately, one bad act from one person can change things for the worse. Although Chris is right, I probably am straying from the topic.
[Puma] isildur all ready knew his mistake.and was going to elrond…..to find out how to emend it
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Gollum ever acts out of anything other than self serving greed. Well, most of the time
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure what Isildur and Gollum have to do with the heroism of the Fellowship.
[RubyRed] Everybody has the potential. Most live ordinary lives and we have small heroics that get us through. Most of us will never have to measure ourselves and our character the way those in the Fellowship did.
[Puma] gollum gave his word.to never let suaron get the ring……he kept the promise….even if in a left handed fashion
[Erkenbrand] so, who is the next Fellowship character to analyse?
[Darkover] Sure, Puma, but it was hardly what he had in mind.
[Jenniearcheo] Leggsy and Gimli?
[Puma] how do we know
[Darkover] Was Legolas heroic? I would say so, but if we’re keeping score, not so much as the others.
[PippinFTW] jennie i like that name. Leggsy!
[Puma] i think gimlis greatest moment was walking into the paths of the dead
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they are nice
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly, Puma
[Erkenbrand] I don’t think that Legolas was heroic, he was already used to the dangers and was better prepared
[Darkover] Arguably, Legolas didn’t have to join the fellowship. He could have gone home after the Council of Elrond, and never endangered himself.
[Puma] gimli went in.even though he felt great fear..that is courage
[Jenniearcheo] Gimli too, Darkover
[RubyRed] Legolas was true to himself…but he also grew. For lack of a better word, he grew beyond himself and the strictures of “elfdom”..he had to.
[Darkover] That shows a certain amount of courage and selflessness right there.
[ChristineGolden] Is there a difference between performing heroic acts and being a hero?
[Puma] but elrond wanted to appoint 1 elf to go
[Darkover] Quite so, Jennie. Gimli, too.
[PippinFTW] Was it how they kept looking for Merry and Pip after believing they were dead?
[Silmarien] I agree with RubyRed
[Puma] but also elrond did not want to send one of the great elves
[Darkover] I think if you perform heroic acts, you become a hero, Chris
[marco_reus] legolas tbf did more than any other elf during the war of the ring
[Puma] so by that definition Darkover.gollum is a hero
[ChristineGolden] No matter if it’s accidental or you had other motives?
[Darkover] I was getting to that, too, Pippin. Legolas and Gimli both went on the search-and-rescue mission to find the hobbits.
[Erkenbrand] none of the hobbits had any experience or knowledge or preparation, legolas however is prepared already. whilst he is still heroic, it makes it less heroic than others
[PippinFTW] I really think Legolas doesn’t really go through character development, other than tolerating dwarves
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the act of heroism must be intentional, Puma.
[RubyRed] If we are sticking with the ancient Greek root that meand=s a protector and defender, then Legolas was absolutely a hero
[Silmarien] Legolas was selfless, to even go…
[Jenniearcheo] A couple of different elves sniffed about having “other matters.”
[Silmarien] Again RubyRed i agree
[Puma] Legolas was a very inexperienced elf…….so he knew the danger.but still went
[Jenniearcheo] Gildor, at first
[Darkover] No, Puma, because Gollum did nothing heroic. He did what he had to do to stay close to his “precious,” and then he fell into the lava of Mt. Doom, certainly not on purpose. Where’s the heroism?
[RubyRed] If we are going beyond that to the place where heroism is going beyond your self imposed limits in order to do somethign extraordinary…
[RubyRed] not so much
[Jenniearcheo] Hmmm . . . somebody else in Rivendell
[Erewen] On the other hand by knowing exactly what you are facing and still carrying on could be heroic
[Puma] gollum destroyed the ring…….the end
[marco_reus] by accident though?
[RubyRed] Gollum destroyed the ring by accident…end of story.
[RubyRed] If he had not slipped…
[PippinFTW] not by choice
[Darkover] Besides, when a person does enough heroic things, he becomes heroic. When he does enough rotten things, he becomes a villain. Take a good look at Gollum’s scorecard.
[Puma] but Darkove rsaid the act makes a person heroic.no matter the motive
[ChristineGolden] Gollum destroyed the ring accidently, Puma.
[Silmarien] Legolas grew mostly in a personal sense, from choosing to go..
[RubyRed] Agreed, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly a certain amount of heroism during the Scouring. More than they’d have been capable of pre-quest
[Jenniearcheo] Leading the Battle of Bywater and all
[RubyRed] Silmarien, exactly
[Darkover] No “maybe” about it, Puma. By then, I doubt if Gollum could have intentionally destroyed the Ring, even had he wished to do so, which he emphatically did not.
[PippinFTW] Silmarien but I never really see that. Do you have an example?
[Puma] Legolas had a less than heroic moment when he saw the balrog…he grew and learned from that
[Erkenbrand] i think that legolas’ most heroic act was entering the paths of the dead
[ChristineGolden] Accidently falling off a cliff into a volcano isn’t heroic
[Puma] no.legolas was never scared of the paths
[RubyRed] Jennie…you have hit my sore spot 🙂 In my humble opinion, The Scouring and the response of the Hobbits..that was the entire point of the books.
[Raurenkili] Legolas was not scared
[marco_reus] legolas was only one not scared
[RubyRed] THAT though is another nights topic :)\
[Jenniearcheo] Sure, RubyRed
[marco_reus] even the elf twins were scared of paths of dead but not legolas
[Raurenkili] E and E?
[Puma] i question whether its an accident jennie……..i dont know…….i can argue both ways
[Raurenkili] those twins?
[Jenniearcheo] The El-boys
[ChristineGolden] I think Legolas’s most heroic moment was when he stood up for Gimli against his fellow elves.
[marco_reus] yes rauren
[RubyRed] Legolas’s bond with Aragorn was unusual for an elf…I liked it.
[Raurenkili] ah yes
[Darkover] No, Puma, I didn’t say one heroic action made a person heroic, regardless of the motive. If a person performs heroic acts–and usually that is plural–he becomes heroic. Or it might admittedly be one heroic act, if it is big enough. But there has to be an element of selflessness there, regardless, in order to be a hero.
[Raurenkili] havn’t read that yet
[PippinFTW] Christine that’s a good example
[Demosthenes] Actually the march to the black gate seems quite heroic in concept. because it’s conceived as a gambit — and none of those involved in the decision expect they can do anything more than give Frodo a chance.
[Puma] Legolas had no bond to aragorn…..that is pure movie and false
[Darkover] Agreed, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] True, Christine
[marco_reus] I was about to say when I read lotr for first time couple of months ago he didn’t seem to talk to Aragorn much
[Puma] yes Demz.that was heroic for all that went
[Jenniearcheo] Likewise Gimli with the Rohirrim
[RubyRed] Then, Puma…it was an heroic act to follow him.
[Jenniearcheo] Although that was as much bravado as heroism
[Demosthenes] And although Gandalf conceives it … everyone else goes along. although they could have said “nup”
[PippinFTW] When the Mouth of Sauron said that they had Frodo, but Gandalf chose not to believe it… does that say anything about heroism?
[Darkover] Puma, we don’t know if Legolas and Aragorn had met prior to the Council, but we don’t know for a fact they didn’t, either. But regardless, by the time the quest was even half over, they had become friends.
[Silmarien] Yes, ChristineGolden Legolas’ friendship with Gimli is an example of his growth. He broadened his horizons by going and that’s one example
[Puma] Gandalf at the black gate knew sauron did not have the ring.it was not a guess
[Darkover] Pippin, I would say that was more desperate hope than anything
[Erkenbrand] Pippin, i think that when Gandalf realised that they only captured 1 hobbit, there was still hope that the other may finish the quest
[Puma] as having 1 of the 3.any holder of the 3 would know instantly if sauron had the ring
[RubyRed] Puma is right…if Sauron had the Ring..they would not have been at his gate
[ChristineGolden] I’d have to vote for bravado, Jennie.
[Darkover] But arguably, it was determination on Gandalf’s part to do the right thing, to go down fighting, so that can be heroic, too.
[PippinFTW] I was thinking it was more hope than heroism, but not sure
[Raurenkili] bye all!
[Darkover] bye, Raurekili
[Darkover] sorry, Raurenkilli
[Demosthenes] is it heroic to act on little more than hope of success?
[Erkenbrand] bye Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] The whole thing was just hope
[Darkover] yes, Demosthenes, if you are trying to do the right thing
[Puma] gandalf might have felt he would go down fighting.but he knew for sure sauron had not the ring
[Demosthenes] why? why not?
[Darkover] and that is your only option–I’m not big on suicide missions
[ChristineGolden] Why is that heroic?
[Puma] deception is not suicide
[Erkenbrand] that is just as Heroic Demosthenes because they are still carrying on even though there is only a slim chance
[Puma] its a choice
[PippinFTW] Christine because they’re going against the fact that there’s nearly no hope to save Frodo?
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Gandalf’s most heroic moment doesn’t even occur in LotR.
[RubyRed] Jennie hit it on the head…the whole venture was hope. They hoped they would make it to Mordor, they hoped they could get to MOunt Doom, they hoped for so much…acting as though that hope had a chance, that was heroism
[Darkover] Because, Chris, if you are trying to do the right thing, then even if you fail, there is an element of the heroic about it. Emphasis on the right thing, and assuming that you have no options that are both better and more moral.
[Puma] i agree jennie
[Darkover] I mean, they could all have survived, had they chosen to surrender to Sauron, and be his slaves, and let their loved ones be his slaves.
[Darkover] That would be “better” in terms of personal survival, but not in terms of doing the right thing.
[Puma] but gandalf also knew better.that other forces were guiding things.outside of middle earth.the valar and eru……and he kept the faith
[Puma] faith is important in jrr
[Darkover] Very much so, Puma
[RubyRed] Puma…but for the Fellowship…how many would have shared that faith?
[Silmarien] Legolas would
[PippinFTW] Puma but I think the Valar have to limit how much they help. If they helped all the time, there’d probably be no Sauron
[ChristineGolden] I’ll agree that success or failure isn’t an element of heroism, but I wouldn’t say “small hope of success” in itself is heroic.
[Demosthenes] By that standard, the final stand of the Spartans at Thermopylae would not be heroic.
[RubyRed] They fought for each other, for their homes, for their families, even Legolas…they were fighting for something real and tangible.
[Darkover] I don’t know aboutthat, Pippin. The Valar have tried to help in the past, but they have messed up a lot.
[Puma] the valar did not help a lot.but they influenced many event directly in lotr
[PippinFTW] If they can chain up Melkor, they can chain up Sauron Darkover
[PippinFTW] At least that’s what I think
[Darkover] Okay, that’s a point, Pippin
[RubyRed] Having a silly Hobbit stumble on the One Ring in the dark under the mountian…that was fortuitous.
[ChristineGolden] The final stand of the Spartans involved a lot more than “small chance of success,” Demosthenes. Greece was at stake and they were willing to die to save it.
[Darkover] Or providential, RubyRed
[Puma] that goes back to the original error of the valar.which is too complex to speak about now
[RubyRed] Darkover…yep 🙂
[Darkover] True, Puma. We’re wandering from the topic again, I fear
[Puma] and the last stand of the spartans……there were 1000’s of greeks there besides the 300
[Demosthenes] Mmmm. Same with Frodo and Sam … same with Gandalf at Khazad-dum, and with the march on the Black Gate too.
[Demosthenes] There’s nothing more than a remote hope driving them all in each instance.
[RubyRed] When a remote hope is all you have…
[Darkover] Right, and doing the right thing. Sorry to keep repeating myself
[Puma] that is the point .to keep faith and not despair
[Demosthenes] And they’re willing to give their lives to save others. Or give others a better future.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s a million-to-one chance but it just might work.
[Puma] and even if that one shire fox survives free…..something good can come
[PippinFTW] whether or not they’re willing to give their lives, Dems, is another topic
[RubyRed] Demosthenes…it is more than that. They are willing to give their lives for the chance to save others, for the chance for a better future.
[Darkover] Well, I suspect they were protecting more than a fox, Puma, but yes
[Puma] just making a point Darkover
[Demosthenes] Frodo makes a point about wanting to save even the hobbits he doesn’t like
[Demosthenes] i think that’s in shadow of the past
[ChristineGolden] I think that what makes them all heroic (in their own ways) is their willingness to set aside their own safety, etc., in order to achieve a higher goal: the possible salvation of ME from Sauron.
[Puma] and in scouring
[Darkover] True. Frodo has certainly grown, too.
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Puma] frodo said,.not to hurt any hobbit.even if they had gone over to evil
[Jenniearcheo] Was it at the Council that the point is made that the rangers &c. have worked to keep simple folk (like Barliman) simple?
[ChristineGolden] Without a higher goal, something beyond oneself, it’s hard for me to call it heroic.
[Darkover] Yes, he did. I remember thinking he was a much nicer person than I was.
[RubyRed] Frodo grew on the inside far more than the outside…
[Puma] yes Christine.a controvercial comment
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Darkover. 🙂
[PippinFTW] I think Frodo shrunk on the outside Ruby, losing so much weight
[marco_reus] hi christine
[ChristineGolden] hi, marco~ ~ ~
[Darkover] Yes, Jennie, it was
[Demosthenes] ?I should like to save the Shire, if I could – though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don?t feel like that now.
[Demosthenes] Frodo from Shadow of the Past.
[Darkover] Now that he knows that really bad things *can* happen to the Shire
[Erkenbrand] Frodo also says not to hurt Saruman. that is heroism, allowing some one who has tried to destroy your homeland and tried to kill you go free on the hope that they might change
[Puma] but in the end…..frodo became a mini sauron….a bad thing.yet he still remains a hero
[Darkover] I would say that is compassion, Erkenbrand. And possibly stupidity. Not heroism.
[PippinFTW] Erkenbrand right! He even lets Sauron go
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover.
[Puma] i would call that wisdom Darkover
[Erkenbrand] not stupidity Darkover
[Darkover] Would you? Letting Saruman go?
[Demosthenes] and following that:
[Demosthenes] But this would mean exile, a flight from danger into danger, drawing it after me. And I suppose I must go alone, if I am to do that and save the Shire. But I feel very small, and very uprooted, and well – desperate. The Enemy is so strong and terrible.?
[Darkover] The Ents let Saruman go, because they thought he was powerless. They were wrong.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he’d lost most of his power by then
[ChristineGolden] Not likely, Darkover.
[PippinFTW] I think Frodo is just so done with everything, he lets Saruman go
[Puma] it was not for hobbits to judge saruman.only the valar can do that……and frodo kept the faith
[Darkover] But not all of it. And he and Wormtongue messed up the Shire pretty bad.
[RubyRed] Darkover…i would say it is awareness. Frodo says that Sauron was once such that they would not dare lay hands on him, and that Sauron’s punishment was up to others better suited to that task.
[Darkover] Personally, I think Wormtongue did some innocents down the line a favor by killing Saruman.
[Darkover] I think you mean “Saruman,” not Sauron. And I know what he said, I just do not agree with it.
[PippinFTW] I think it was nothing more than exhaustion that made Frodo let Saruman go
[Jenniearcheo] Saruman doesn’t seem to think so
[Jenniearcheo] He thinks it’s Frodo being malicious
[RubyRed] Pippin, I absolutely, respectfully, disagree 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Reading an evil intent into it
[Darkover] How much more harm was Saruman going to do, while Frodo waited around for someone “better suited” to keep him from doing so?
[ChristineGolden] No, I agree with Darkover; it was compassion, something Saruman would despise from Frodo.
[Jenniearcheo] (Being as how that’s something he’d have done)
[PippinFTW] Ruby in what way?
[Darkover] Of course he does, Jennie, because everything looks yellow to a jaundiced eye.
[Erkenbrand] it reminds me of what Gandalf says in shadow of the past: some who live deserves death and some who die deserve life
[PippinFTW] Why do you think he let Saruman go?
[Jenniearcheo] Because he’d seen enough death
[Darkover] Frodo may have been acting out of compassion–I believe he was–but under some circumstances, mercy is the wrong way to go.
[Jenniearcheo] And it didn’t seem to have much of a point
[Jenniearcheo] When the killee wasn’t really a threat any more
[RubyRed] Frodo may have been exhausted, emotionally, but his body had reapired (as much as possible) He grew, as I said, under the influence of both the ring and Gandalf. It was not Frodo fo the shire who told them to leave Saruman alone, it was Frodo, The Ring Bearer who said it. Two very different people.
[Puma] Frodo was keeping faith to eru and the valar….by not judging saruman
[ChristineGolden] Saruman was still capable of mischief, Jen, as proven in Scouring.
[Demosthenes] Can going against the crowd be heroic?
[ChristineGolden] depends on the crowd.
[PippinFTW] Unless he believed that Saruman could change like he believed Gollum could change?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, the Shire was at least wise to him by now.
[Darkover] Jennie, as I said, the Ents let Saruman go in the first place, because they believed he was no threat to anyone. Obviously, they were wrong. IMO, Frodo was wrong, too. Good intentions don’t always equal right decisions.
[Demosthenes] Frodo goes against the crowd re the fate of Saruman.
[Erkenbrand] i think that Frodo let him go because he believed in what Gandalf said to him, do not be too eager to deal out death
[RubyRed] Pippin…maybe he had hope?
[ChristineGolden] good point, Erkenbrand
[PippinFTW] But Ruby, I think Jennie also has a point by saying that Frodo had seen enough death
[RubyRed] Erkenbrand….also a very important point.
[Puma] yes Erkenbrand
[Darkover] Even if Gollum had changed, Pippin, he was locked up, until orcs rescued him. Saruman was going to be allowed to go whereever he wanted.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Gandalf know he’d go cause trouble somewhere? That it was necessary for the Shire’s maturity? That the hobbits had to handle it alone?
[Puma] yes.gandalf knew
[Puma] he said as much
[RubyRed] I agree as well with Jennie…but ultimately, it was a pronouncement, and one that would have been obeyed by all the Hobbits.
[PippinFTW] I’m sure he knew
[Darkover] I don’t know if Gandalf knew it or not. But I think he believed that even if Saruman did cause trouble, it wasn’t his, Gandalf’s, job to worry about it any more.
[PippinFTW] somehow that Gollum would help
[RubyRed] He knew what had happened.
[Darkover] bye, Erewen
[PippinFTW] bye, Erewen
[Puma] when they met saruman on the road to rivendell……gandalf said saruman could do damage in a small mean way
[Erkenbrand] i love the idea that the entire war of the ring was just to train the hobbits to deal with the scouring of the shire 😀
[Puma] a oblique reference to the shire
[PippinFTW] What do you mean, Erkenbrand?
[RubyRed] Erkenbrand..it was not to train them to deal with it, it was to show them they could survive in the age of man.
[Darkover] Really, Erkenbrand? If I believed that to be true, I would want to break down and cry. All that suffering, just so the hobbits would grow up?
[Jenniearcheo] The Rangers weren’t going to perform Shire Buffer Service any more
[Puma] and gandalf galadriel and elrond let saruman go also……..it was just not fordo
[ChristineGolden] It’s a reference to Gandalf’s statement to the hobbits.
[ChristineGolden] just before they parted ways.
[Erkenbrand] I know that it is not true Darkover, i just like the idea of it
[PippinFTW] Puma but that was before the Scouring. Frodo had more reason to kill him after that than Elrond and Galrdriel did
[Puma] not really
[Darkover] Right, Puma, they all did. And IMO, they were all wrong. Just because people are good, that doesn’t mean they are infallible. “Even the wise cannot foresee all ends.”
[RubyRed] Perhaps, then, it is that they were all heroes at one time or another, because they all made mistakes but carried on, with little hope.
[Jenniearcheo] The Shire could no longer exist in its bubble. They had to be part of the world, and defend themselves and their sense of right
[Puma] Darkover……it was keeping faith with eru.and the valar….who are the judges…not them
[Silmarien] Honestly (slightly OT, sorry) i dont think it’s all about hobbits. At the heart it’s all about Aragorn’s coming of age… Not the Shire’s
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, the whole war wasn’t just to scour the shire; Gandalf inferred that was the purpose of the hobbits’ involvement in the war.
[PippinFTW] got to go, everyone. bye!
[Erkenbrand] Gandalf does say that saruman has withered altogether and still doesn’t judge him
[Silmarien] The hobbits were just part of a greater picture
[ChristineGolden] So they could deal with the results of it in their own land.
[Silmarien] It affected every culture
[Darkover] I don’t believe it was all about the hobbits either, Chris. I would just make me depressed if it were.
[Darkover] bye, Pippin
[Puma] true Silmarien.we have gone a long way.and have not touched on aragorn
[Darkover] sorry, It
[RubyRed] The end of the Ring was the end of an Age, the Age of Man was beginning. It is about the passing of the torch of goodness, hope, compassion and decency to the people who would usher in that Age; men, Hobbits, and other assorted “folk”.
[Darkover] or Eowyn
[Jenniearcheo] His screwing up of the Shire was malicious revenge. But he’d had his fingers in there for some time. RE: longbottom leaf
[Darkover] of course, Aragorn was of the Fellowship, Aragorn was not
[Silmarien] When i read LOTR, i see mostly a story about Aragorn….
[Puma] the end of the ring was not the end of the age!!!!!!!
[Silmarien] Everyone else is a supporting role
[Darkover] sorry, Eowyn. Got to type slower
[Darkover] Aragorn is the most heroic Man in the story, IMO
[ChristineGolden] Frodo is a secondary character to Aragorn, Silmarien?
[AbrahamSherman] did I read correctly that Tolkien considered Sam to be the main protagonist of LOTR?
[Silmarien] The Silmarillion is about Elves and *their* coming of age. LOTR, is about the coming of age of Men, and Aragorn is the central figure
[Puma] the 3rd age ended….when elrond left…….book specifically said that
[Demosthenes] AbrahamSherman: the chief hero, yes.
[Erkenbrand] i don’t see most of aragorns acts as overly heroic, sometimes it can be seen that he did them so he could marry Arwent
[Darkover] the most heroic, I think is what Tolkien said, Abraham
[RubyRed] Puma…disagree. Again, respectfully, becasue we all get out of LOTR something of what we put into it, that is what I see.
[AbrahamSherman] that’s right
[Silmarien] I don’t mean that Frodo is secondary, at all. But at the end of the day, it’s about the Elves leaving, and Men (among others, including hobbits) taking over
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, I believe someone posted the exact quote last week.
[Jenniearcheo] I think it was a long process of learning to trust his own judgment. From Weathertop to Amon Hen, and through Rohan and the Paths of the Dead. He grows.
[Demosthenes] I think the simple ‘rustic’ love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero’s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the ‘longing for Elves’, and sheer beauty.
[Demosthenes] Letter 131.
[Puma] its ok not to agree rubyred.even though jrr said it
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, do you seriously believe that Aragorn did all the heroic deeds he did over the years, and persevered as much as he did, even to the point ot expecting to die at the Black Gate, for no reason other than to marry Arwen?
[Darkover] Very well phrased, Demosthenes
[Silmarien] In the Sil we see Elves, their “fall”, and their coming of age. In the Akallabeth we see Mens’ “fall”, and in LOTR we see their coming of age. jmho
[Jenniearcheo] Sam seems to be the “everyman” character.
[Darkover] Oh, no wonder, you were quoting Tolkien
[Demosthenes] also letter 184
[Demosthenes] It was very kind of you to write. You can imagine my astonishment, when I saw your signature! I can only say, for your comfort I hope, that the ‘Sam Gamgee’ of my story is a most heroic character, now widely beloved by many readers, even though his origins are rustic.
[Erkenbrand] no, Darkover, more that his actions were not necceserily =
[sunshower] contibution: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=546226908773562&set=a.511299738932946.1073741856.231842380212018&type=1&theater
[Demosthenes] “a most heroic character”
[Puma] think of aragorn going after m and p….not to minas tirith…..that took great courage…..as it went against him becoming king
[Demosthenes] (not *the* most heroic character)
[Erkenbrand] sorry, i feel that not all of aragorns actions were just to overthrow sauron
[Erkenbrand] also Aragorn had prepared for this all his life, he wasn’t overly stretched in anything he did
[Jenniearcheo] He’s a complicated dude. Like many
[Darkover] Well, Erkenbrand, I’m sure he had a certain degree of self-interest, and who can blame him? But he did a lot of brave things for unselfish reasons.
[Puma] but aragorn had risked his life.for most of his life for a cause
[RubyRed] People, this has been fun. It has been a long time since I had such a good, thought provoking discussion. Thank you 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Heading out, RubyRed?
[Puma] stay safe RubyRed
[Darkover] He wasn’t “overly stretched?” What does the guy have to do to get your respect, Erkenbrand?
[Silmarien] Aragorn risked *everything*, for the highest cause…
[Darkover] bye, RubyRed
[Erkenbrand] however what I do believe was heroic was looking into the palantir
[RubyRed] I am..gotta feed the kidlets before they start gnawing on my toes.
[Jenniearcheo] Ah. Yeah, they do that.
[Darkover] see you next time, RubyRed
[Puma] i have a whole book.about aragorns heroism
[Puma] good book too
[Erkenbrand] by overly stretched, i mean that he wasn’t stretching his abilities as much as other were eg Sam
[ChristineGolden] He was also trained, undoubtedly well-trained, to take up this quest. Unlike the hobbits, to whom this whole quest was like walking off a cliff, blindfolded.
[Darkover] and a thick one, I’ll bet, Puma. Aragorn did a lot.
[Puma] so do you not think he was a hero.for walking into what he knew was extreme danger
[Darkover] yes, but except for Frodo, maybe, a lot more was expected of Aragorn than of the hobbits, Chris
[Puma] over 400 large pages darkover
[Darkover] what is the title, Puma? I’d like to read it
[ChristineGolden] But is that heroism, Darkover? Living up to other people’s expectations of you?
[Erkenbrand] I don’t think that he wasn’t a hero, i just feel that it wasn’t as heroic, also he was the most prepared for the danger
[Puma] Aragorn….jrr toliens undervalued hero………..by angela p nicholas
[Demosthenes] I find Sam’s persistence quite extraordinary throughout.
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn was an archetypical medieval hero, in the traditional sense.
[Darkover] if that is the only reason why you do it, probably not, Chris. But repeatedly doing the right thing, often the unselfish thing, only to have someone dismiss it as not much, because you were trained for it–that is hardly fair, IMO
[Darkover] thank you, Puma
[Erkenbrand] if you spend all you life training to achieve something, it will be no surprise if you do achieve it
[Puma] Aragorn was the typical mythic hero of lotr…….sam and frodo….were modern 20th century heroes…..so that we as readers have people to relate to
[Puma] myth is far away from us
[Demosthenes] those are certainly different aspects of heroism.
[ChristineGolden] Fair? No, but I still think that the hobbits had a lot more to overcome internally to become heroes than Aragorn did. They didn’t even know how to hold a sword, but were willing to save Frodo from the Black Riders. When there was no Gandalf or Aragorn to help them.
[Darkover] Unless the odds are overwhelming, Erkenbrand. Aragorn’s ancestors for generations got the same training. Did any of them achieve the kingship and defeat Sauron?
[Puma] we need intermediaries to get “into” it
[Erkenbrand] they didn’t have the possibility to do it until now though
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, but the hobbits didn’t truly understand the danger they were facing, either. Aragorn did. So if this is a contest over who is the most heroic, I’m voting for Aragorn.
[Demosthenes] So … is Aragorn’s stalking of Gollum then more heroic? Or his venture into Rhun?
[Demosthenes] Or his time as Thorongil?
[Demosthenes] For he was certainly les experienced then
[Silmarien] But was Aragorn truly “typical”? He was hidden at first, reluctant.. or perhaps waiting for the right time. All the same, “typical” heroes (ie. Beowulf) dont need so much encouragement
[Puma] leading the hobits from bree…..when being pursued by the nazgul took great courage…aragorn knew exactly how deadly they were
[ChristineGolden] I think it’s a different kind of heroism, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Is Frodo less heroic at the end of his journey than he is at the start?
[Darkover] All of that is heroic, Demosthenes. And like the hunting of Gollum, he did a lot of things just because someone he deemed wiser than himself told him it was the right thing to do.
[Puma] i dont think aragorn was ever reluctant
[Silmarien] He may have actually avoided the whole thing. I dont think it was about him simply living up to others’ expectations. I think he knew it was a higher call.. that no one else could fill
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris. But it isn’t any less heroic.
[Puma] aragorn was under no ones command
[Puma] and did what he thought right.in his own judgement
[Silmarien] Ultimately yes, he had to face *himself*
[Erkenbrand] Gandalf? Puma
[Puma] a friend and comrad
[Puma] not aragorns commander
[ChristineGolden] advisor, counselor, and leader of the fellowship.
[Puma] aragorn was not ignorant of who gandlaf was
[Puma] is it not just smart to take into consideration what amome1 from aman says
[Puma] aragorn warned against moria…..yet still went in
[Erkenbrand] how heroic is Gandalf, since we seem to have mostly ignored him
[Puma] gandalf cant be looked at as the other memebers
[Silmarien] I agree with that, Puma
[Silmarien] He was functioning entirely in ‘divine’ calling
[ChristineGolden] He had his own form of heroism – carrying his burden, his mission – fighting alone for so many years against the odds to destroy Sauron.
[Silmarien] Being somewhat divine himself
[Puma] his rewards and punishments would be quite different
[Darkover] I’m back
[Puma] gandalf did not fight alone all the time
[Demosthenes] Gandalf sacrificing himself at the bridge to buy his companions time is without a doubt a heroic sacrifice.
[LotRQueen] Gandalf faced the Balrog on the bridge of Khazad-Dum. That is pretty heroic.
[Puma] it was Demz
[Erkenbrand] also he gives up his life in Valinor and agrees to take up the guise of an old man bound by limitations
[Darkover] What you just said could be applied to Aragorn as well, Chris, and he was a Man, not an Istari
[Puma] only he could face the balrog
[ChristineGolden] I think that is Gandalf’s true heroism, Erkenbrand.
[Darkover] or is that “Istar”, singular
[ChristineGolden] I think it’s a collective noun, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] I think he was afraid. Or daunted. Yet still did it.
[Puma] gandalf faced the balrog knowing.he who kills a balrog is also killed
[Darkover] thank you, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I have to disagree.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. I don’t agree with the viewpoint here that many seem to have–that supposedly because someone was bigger, or stronger, or better trained, or other than human, whatever, then the brave deeds they did are somehow less heroic.
[Darkover] Everyone in the Fellowship seems to have faced formidable challenges.
[Erkenbrand] i think Gandalf facing a balrog is heroic, because it is one of the few things in ME that is of a similar standard to him
[Puma] gandalf was bound by having a human body
[ChristineGolden] The battle with the balrog was a flash in the pan, over in minutes, while the long years of loneliness, often scorn, plodding on to your goal, and yet never despairing or abandoning your mission.
[Darkover] Maybe a big part of their heroism–or at least their humility–was not keeping score, the way we have been.
[ChristineGolden] abandoning your mission must have been much more unbearable – challengin.
[Darkover] Again, Chris, could be applied to Aragorn, too. Not that I think that makes Gandalf less heroic.
[Erkenbrand] what about facing Saruman… that is heroic, standing up to your superior
[Demosthenes] The first time round?
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, Saruman was no longer Gandalf’s superior, by the time Gandalf returned and broke Saruman’s staff
[Puma] gandalfs action of keeping faith…was the reciprocal…..of the valar losing faith….and doing their worst deeds…..and their main error
[Erkenbrand] first time round
[Puma] all the valar lost faith but for ulmo
[Silmarien] Gandalf was also more or less the glue that held the Fellowship together, regarding hope and faith. They all looked to him for that hope
[Puma] they had a lot to make up for
[Puma] gandalf was it
[Silmarien] If he had shown despair they would have not gone forward
[Silmarien] Things would be a lot different
[ChristineGolden] But he must have felt it at times, Silmarien.
[Puma] as i said earlier.keeping faith in higher powers is of great import in jrr
[Silmarien] I’m sure he did. And that is ‘heroic’
[Silmarien] Feeling despair but keeping the faith outwardly, for others
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it’s admirable, but not heroic.
[Silmarien] Without him doing just that, would they have accomplished their goals?
[Demosthenes] Frodo says in Lorien that he was their guide.
[Darkover] Oh, I don’t know, Chris. It sounds like a form of courage, and without courage, there is no heroism.
[ChristineGolden] There are a lot of “if somebody hadn’t done something” moments in LotR.
[Puma] well…….i think we have burned this topic for now..why not just stop….cause it wont end on its own
[Darkover] I was just thinking that we’ve covered about everyone and everything.
[ChristineGolden] Well, the Fellowship did manage to continue after his death, Silmarien, and Gandalf never hooked up with Frodo again until after the ring was destroyed. So, I’d say, probably.
[Darkover] Everyone in the Fellowship was heroic. I believe we can all agree on that.
[ChristineGolden] I mean, the ring was going to be destroyed by somebody – otherwise, why write the book?
[Puma] this is an endless topic….so we might as well stop.b4 we beat our heads into walls
[Demosthenes] I certainly think that each of the Fellowship act heroically at different points during the war of the ring.
[Demosthenes] i guess that’s my final word.
[Darkover] I emphatically agree, Demosthenes
[Puma] great discussion people
[Puma] most enjoyable
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover. I see heroism as multi-faceted, and the members of the Fellowship showed those different aspects individually.
[Darkover] Yes, indeed!
[Erkenbrand] most heroic: the hobbits, the others: still very heroic
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
* Jenniearcheo toasts all heroes
[Darkover] Okay! Thanks for the great discussion, see you all–except for Jennie, alas–next week!
Session Close: Sun Jul 28 09:38:16 2013