Hall of Fire chat log: the stewards of Middle-earth
Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf’s famous “For I also am a steward” rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.
And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.
Session Start: Sun Jul 07 07:24:00 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic today: the stewards of middle-earth. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay. Let’s maybe get this show on the road?
[ChristineGolden] But that doesn’t make them stewards, Erkenbrand.
[Puma] the valar and even eru are very present in lotr….and sil of course
[Erkenbrand] the ainur are more detached and influence middle earth indirectly
[Gondhir] also… Frodo didn’t have a direct influence for good?
[Puma] no they dont
[Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. You know the Istari ARE Ainur, right?
[Puma] for instance…..how did faramir many times.and bormoir once get the dream
[Demosthenes] Stewards of Middle-earth. Who? What? Why?
[Demosthenes] Many characters seem to fill the role of stewards in Tolkien’s Middle-earth. Some are obvious: rulers such as Denethor and Theoden, members of the council of the wise like Elrond and Garadriel, the Istari and the Valar.
[Demosthenes] Treebeard, and even Tom Bombadil and the Entwives can also be examined in the same light. Others such as Samwise and Eowyn are more subtly portrayed.
[Demosthenes] But what are the defining traits of a steward in Tolkien’s milieu?
[Erkenbrand] the istari are maiar
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think we should first define “steward.”
[Gondhir] Sam is an ACTUAL steward, I’d stay
[Erkenbrand] and I am classing the istari separately
[Demosthenes] I agree.
[Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. Yes. And the Valar and the Maiar together are the Ainur..
[Gondhir] like… he serves food etc.
[Jenniearcheo] Frodo didn’t steward much apart from the Ring. And perhaps the Shire, indirectly.
[Jenniearcheo] And Gollum, one could argue
[Demosthenes] What is a steward, here?
[Puma] the dreams came from ulmo who has a history of sending dreams.that is direct influence
[ChristineGolden] A steward is someone entrusted by a higher power to carry out their orders.
[Gondhir] a vicar, as it were
[Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. So practically the Istari?
[Jenniearcheo] I would say a steward was someone entrusted to protect or oversee something.
[Demosthenes] Can a steward be self-appointed?
[Puma] and ulmo of all the valar.always did his best to look after middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think anyone appointed Treebeard to anything
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] He sort of took on that role because he was him
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Who do you think would be the steward of Gondor in the forth age?
[Demosthenes] “But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish,
[Puma] faramir at the start
[Jenniearcheo] One could argue Tom Bombadil was the steward of his little bit of earth. Certainly nobody appointed him
[Ringlordsander] But, if you define a steward as someone ‘entrusted by a highter power to carry out their orders’. You could argue that almost everyone in ME is a steward
[Demosthenes] if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit
[Puma] then his son elboron
[Demosthenes] and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know??
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Would there be any more kings after aragorn?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf doesn’t mention anything about being appointed to be one.
[Gondhir] I think a steward has to be working FOR SOMEONE
[miriel] good point jennie
[ChristineGolden] We don’t know that, Jennie, mainly because we don’t know who or what Bombadil really was.
[Jenniearcheo] Even if that someone is oneself?
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: Gandalf doesn’t mention it, but he was, in fact, appointed by the Valar
[Puma] well.the ainur work for eru
[miriel] would we find a steward in the Shire, do you say?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I suppose. He didn’t seem to feel very subservient to anyone
[Demosthenes] miriel: the mayor? the thain?
[Erkenbrand] sam is a steward in the shire
[Gondhir] the Thain is arguably the “steward” of the King of Arnor
[Jenniearcheo] Several people steward the Shire
[Jenniearcheo] Even the rangers
[Puma] sam became a steward of the shire after the war
[Gondhir] the King then… disappeared
[Gondhir] just as there ceased to be a King of Gondor
[Gondhir] but the Stewards of Gondor continued on
[Darkover] mae govannen, all!
[Demosthenes] gond: but … positions of feudal power are usually initially acquired by force.
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[sauronswife] Evening Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Which is … well … self-appointment.
[Goldberry] hey darkover
[ChristineGolden] Grima Wormtongue was a steward.
[Puma] jrr specifically said middle earth was not feudal
[Gondhir] I don’t think Grima was a steward
[miriel] the thain dies sound more like a steward than the mayor. Was there not a point where there was talk that if there was a rightful leader of the shire, it would be him?
[Darkover] Was Wormtongue a steward, or an advisor, Chris?
[Ringlordsander] But almost everyone is someone appointed by someone else… So could we argue that basically everyone in Middle-Earth is a steward?
[Demosthenes] puma: heredirtary (and classist) power structures then.
[Goldberry] where did he say that Puma?
[Erkenbrand] can a steward be a steward if they are working for an evil power?
[Darkover] There was, Miriel, when the “Chief” Lotho began challenging the Tooks
[ChristineGolden] He ran Rohan in Theoden’s name until Gandalf did his exorcism thing.
[Gondhir] actually… Grima may have been acting as Theoden’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] Not a very responsible steward
[Gondhir] depends on to what extent he was actually “running’ Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] Saruman was arguably a very irresponsible steward of Isengard
[Gondhir] in the movie, he clearly IS directly running it
[ChristineGolden] Btw, hi, Darkover, didn’t see ya slip in. 😉
[Gondhir] not so clear in the book
[Puma] from 3014 on grima was a steward of theoden
[miriel] thanks Darkover, that was the thing I was remembering
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What became of Orthanc after the Fall of saruman?
[Darkover] I doubt if evil Stewards can exist, Erkenbrand, because Sauron and other baddies don’t trust underlings enough to give them any great power in their own right.
[Puma] aragorn reclaimed it
[Gondhir] Darkover: Of course “evil” steward exist
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] did anyone settle in it
[ChristineGolden] Denethor was hardly a force for good, and he was definitely a steward.
[Jenniearcheo] Presumably the pits were filled in
[Gondhir] you don’t think Sauron entrusted anything to underlings?
[sauronswife] I’m iffy on “evil stewards…” I need a LONG think on that.
[Ringlordsander] So Frodo was a steward as well? He did lord Elrond’s will by taking the Ring to Mordor…
[Gondhir] he didn’t DIRECTLY control everything
[Puma] Denethor was a force for good!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] How could Frodo be a steward?
[lunarising] could the witch king be considered a ‘steward’ of Minas Morgul?
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Was he given the keys and it was left empty?
[Erkenbrand] saruman has some trust in grima and sauron has trust in gothmog and the witchking (who in turn trust kahmul)
[Gondhir] I don’t think Frodo was a steward
[Gondhir] he wasn’t “working for” anyone in particular
[Jenniearcheo] I’d say he did the Council of Elrond’s will, but yeah, he stewarded the Ring on its way to Mt. Doom
[Gondhir] he certainly wasn’t Elrond’s steward
[Darkover] Chris, I don’t believe that is fair. Denethor protected Gondor for a long time. He may not have been charming about it, but that doesn’t lessen the rightness of his cause.
[ChristineGolden] Or carrying out the commands of a higher being.
[Gondhir] “doing a good thing” does not mean that one is a steward
[Puma] frodo volunteered….elrond said he thought the choice was right
[Gondhir] any more than “doing a bad thing” means that one is not
[ChristineGolden] He became corrupted, Darkover, like Boromir.
[Darkover] Gondhir, I didn’t say Sauron didn’t trust *anything* to underlings–clearly he did–but he would not have allowed one so powerful as a “steward” to exist, else that steward might become a rival someday.
[Jenniearcheo] Depends on what he did, lunarising. Sitting in a chair twirling an imaginary moustache isn’t really stewarding
[Ringlordsander] Puma. But it was lord Elrond’s will. And Frodo carried it out.. So that’d make Frodo a sterward by the definition we just made up..
[Demosthenes] Must a steward be powerful, darkover?
[Erkenbrand] denathor did both protect gondor and try to repel sauron but is was more for selfish motives
[Darkover] At the end, Chris, maybe so. But that was a personal failing on his part, it didn’t diminish the rightness of Denethor’s cause.
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Well what would saruman do with the ring if he attained it before sauron?
[Puma] i dont see Denethor as selfish
[Demosthenes] There has to be some element of responsibility. Otherwise there is no stewarding,
[Darkover] Demosthenes, yes, a Steward must have some power, else he is just a Steward in his own mind only.
[ChristineGolden] Then I disagree with the made-up definition, Ringlordsander.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure Denethor had many other duties in which he protected the welfare of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] We just don’t hear of the day-to-day
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, what you just said. Sorry, I can’t reply to all these threads fast enough1
[Erkenbrand] sam does not have lots of power, just respect yet almost all of us agree that he was a steward
[Gondhir] Darkover: Dol Guldor was being run by Khamul, one of the Nazgul
[Demosthenes] darkover: No that’s ok!
[Puma] Denethor had minas tirith very well prepared for the war.or at least as much as he could have
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demetria] Denethor was steward by birthright, and did his best to protect Gondor, however it did go to his head
[Darkover] Right, I agree with Puma’s comment about Denethor
[Gondhir] the WK ran Angmar and most (or at least a great deal) of Eregion
[ChristineGolden] I believe Sam was a steward only when he became mayor (?) of the Shire.
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, how was Sam a steward, unless you’re talking about his years as Mayor of the Shire?
[Jenniearcheo] I think the corruption by Sauron was subtle and slow, but that he otherwise was a responsible Steward. Until the end.
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Gondhir] the book implies that the Mouth of Sauron is going to be appointed Warden of the West (or somesuch) in the event that the Gondorians et al surrender (or are crushed)
[Puma] i agree jennie.but b4 that also.when he spread the dust from the box.and planted the mallorn
[Erkenbrand] he practicaly rebuilt the shire
[Demetria] Sam became steward of the books given to him by Frodo, which was the history of the ring
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was a steward for good but after Boromir’s death he was really hit emotionally and could not act to his fullest
[Demosthenes] jennie: Aragorn did say (and we discussed this last week) that Saruman was “once wise and subtle”
[Erkenbrand] he also allowed Frodo to finish his task
[ChristineGolden] The only Denethor I “know” is the one revealed in the book and he wasn’t what I’d call a good person, let alone good steward.
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was not an evil steward
[Darkover] Ok, Sam became Steward of the books, and he became mayor, but that was all post-Ring War
[Gondhir] being a BAD steward also doesn’t mean that one is not a steward
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Once upon a time, he was a friend to the trees, according to Fangorn
[Puma] Denethor did act to his fullest…..but gave in to despair when he saw what was in cirith ungol
[Darkover] Chris, IMO Denethor was a good person–until his bizarre, self-inflicted end–he just wasn’t a very *nice* person. There is a difference.
[Erkenbrand] are we talking stewards during, before or after the war of the ring? or just stewards throughout?
[Puma] i agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I think Sauron made him despair, but yeah.
[Darkover] Thanks, Puma
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: in general, Erkenbrand
[Jenniearcheo] I think throughout, Erkenbrand
[ChristineGolden] If so, Darkover, then why did Gandalf warn Pippin before they first appeared before Denethor in Minas Tirith?
[Jenniearcheo] Sam counts
[Gondhir] I think Denethor didn’t really “give up” until after Faramir died and he saw the massive forces marshaling against Gondor
[ChristineGolden] Oh, knowing this discussion, Erkenbrand, probably all of them.
[Gondhir] and decided that at best, he could prolong Gondor’s demise
[Jenniearcheo] It was a slow self-inflicted end, which Gandalf had seen coming
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What about Rohan?
[Gondhir] and that he might as well get it over with
[Puma] as for stewards of gondor…….i would consider Cirion a steward of middle earth also….by giving calenardhon to the eotheod…he strengthened the world he knew
[Demosthenes] It is arguable that, in the end, Denethor surrendered his stewardship (if not his Stewardship).
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Rohan after the WOTR
[Erkenbrand] my opinion is that denethor gave up after boromir died? does anyone know roughly when he started looking into the palanti?
[Darkover] Because Denethor tended to assume people were trying to keep things from him, plus he had never much trusted Gandalf anyway, and yet here was this hobbit being brought to Minas Tirith by the very wizard Denethor regarded as an untrustworthy busybody. Gandalf was essentially telling Pippin to watch his mouth, and not talk too much about Aragorn.
[Gondhir] Erkenbrand: Denethor started looking in the palantir long before that.
[Puma] he looked into the palantiri soon ofater ecthelion died
[Erkenbrand] any idea when?
[Demosthenes] Which is actually different to What Saruman (and Sauron) do as powers in the world.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’d been looking for a long while. Sauron was only gradually infecting him with darkness and despair
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, Denethor was not to be trusted.
[Demosthenes] They take different paths.
[Darkover] I think Denethor had begun palantir-gazing before that, but the death of Boromir sapped a lot of his spirit.
[Demetria] yes it did
[Puma] notice.denethor did not give into sauron as saruman did
[Erkenbrand] would anyone class faramir as a steward?
[Darkover] I would–Faramir was the last ruling steward.
[lunarising] I would
[ChristineGolden] He was a steward, small and large S.
[Gondhir] Faramir was an actual Steward of Gondor
[Puma] faramir became one.to rebuild ithilien
[Darkover] Ooh, I like that, Chris 🙂
[Demosthenes] Puma: If he had, he would have become more like Saruman. More authoritarian. And that’s the nasty flipside of a stewarship.
[Demetria] yes he was, and give a relm of his own as well
[Demosthenes] Great power can turn you into an authoritarian lunatic.
[ChristineGolden] His father gave him Ithilien to safeguard, and then he became Steward of Gondor until Aragorn was crowned.
[Puma] Denethor was a politician at heart.that was his weakness
[Darkover] And he was still Steward after Aragorn was crowned, by Aragorn’s decree, only he was no longer full ruler of Gondor–the King was
[Demetria] Aragorn gave him Ithilien after he was crowned
[Jenniearcheo] Somebody’s got to arrange for garbage pickup
[Erkenbrand] can anyone think of a dwarf who could be a “Steward”?
[ChristineGolden] No, not offhand.
[Darkover] It strikes me that a lot of you people are really harsh towards Denethor. As Jennie just said, someone has to arrange for garbage pickup, so to speak.
[sauronswife] Not sure Gimli would count but beyond him no other Dwarves come to mind.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t consider Gimli a steward.
[Demosthenes] I have a question: How does this contrast with the attitude that the Valar show over the millenia toward Middle-earth. Ultimately they are THE stewards. But their stewardship seems to become lighter and lighter as time goes on.
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I believe that a person must have a “bad seed,
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t mean Denethor, Darkover. I meant somebody’s got to deal with the day-to-day running of things, even after there’s a king on the throne.
[Jenniearcheo] To make the big decisions
[ChristineGolden] oops, the ability to be corrupted inside them or they won’t be.
[sauronswife] There’s a GOOD reason the Valar have stepped back, and even stepped back even more. I wish it wasn’t so…. 🙁
[Darkover] Maybe, Demosthenes, because the Valar began to notice that while their intentions were always good, the results of their interference seldom were.
[Jenniearcheo] One could argue Thror had stewarded Erebor. Until Smaug came.
[lunarising] weren’t they appointed ‘stewards’ until the Children came?
[Jenniearcheo] But, not as anyone’s subordinate
[Erkenbrand] I think that the valar tried to get the people of middle earth to “Steward” themselves with only a little help, (the Istari) and so slowly pulled out over the centuaries
[Demosthenes] darkover: As stewards they have to face the consequences of their interference.
[Puma] take a questionable steward…pelendur..his advice stopped arvedui from becoming king……much evil might ahve been averted but for him
[ChristineGolden] I think, after the War of Wrath, the Valar became hesitant to interfere directly in the affairs of ME, and so they sent the Istari.
[Darkover] Jennie, whether it is Denethor or Faramir, someone has to keep things going on a daily basis. That means you can’t always be nice and polite, especially during the years prior to the Ring War, when Gondor and Mordor were in a sort of Cold War.
[Puma] but the valar directly took part in the war of the ring
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: does that make them good stewards, or poor ones?
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, the Valar did, but I suspect that was why their hand on M-E became lighter with time. They decided to let the younger race, Men, take over
[Erkenbrand] good stewards
[ChristineGolden] I’d say good ones because they were able to delegate their power.
[Demosthenes] If Sauron is the example of too much control, are the Valar the example of too little?
[Darkover] Directly, Puma?
[Puma] sam called to varda…..his prayer was answered
[Darkover] Maybe. You could argue that Men could use some help. Of course, the Valar sent the Istari.
[Puma] ulmo sent dreams to faramir and boromir
[Erkenbrand] they achieved the same results but allowed the people of middle earth to come to them by themselves
[Puma] manwe sent wind at several strategic times
[ChristineGolden] If you notice in Tolkien, it’s the people who have a problem with letting go of power who end up becoming evil or corrupted.
[Darkover] Maybe the Valar continued to help, but in a more subtle way, such as dreams, eagles, etc.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, yeah. Forgot about the dreams
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that’s quite true.
[Demetria] the dreams were the most influence at the time of men
[Puma] so the valar sent aid .but the people had to still help themselves
[Darkover] That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, that people help themselves.
[ChristineGolden] Which is how it should be when dealing with free people, Puma.
[ChristineGolden] Free will = free choice, good or bad.
[Puma] but the valar are not absent in taking action.they did
[Darkover] Only when the odds were overwhelming, such as fighting against Morgoth or Sauron, should the Valar get involved on a large scale, IMO
[sauronswife] I have such a love/hate relationship with the free-ch9oice concept. :S
[Erkenbrand] if sa
* Baumbart (Mibbit@torn-C7CD8565.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Goldberry] the valar didn’t get too involved with morgoth though
[Jenniearcheo] Well, Sauron’s Wife woul,d
[Demosthenes] Which brings me to another thought … are the elves in a way early stewards for men? And is it their inability to surrender what is entrusted that creates a lot of problems later? (celbrimbor + rings = big mess)
[Demetria] Elrond was also a steward, he made sure the line of kings was protected in the north
[Erkenbrand] I think that people need to have free choice, even if thee choice they make is bad
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree on Moroth, Darkover, because he was a Vala and the people of ME could not destroy him themselves.
[Darkover] They did eventually dispatch Morgoth into the Void, Goldberry
[Puma] elrond was a steward…..of knowledge….he kept records of the past.so other people could learn…..that had import
[Darkover] Right, Chris, that was my point
[Darkover] only you said it more succinctly
[ChristineGolden] However, Sauron (who was once Morgoth’s steward) was a different matter.
[Puma] sauron was never a steward to morgoth
[Demetria] yes, and he watched over the succession in the north, for example the sword
[sauronswife] Finrod = Steward for Men. Not sure about other elves (esp Noldor) save Elrond..
[Puma] at best sauron was a top aid.morgoth shared power with none
[Darkover] Sauron wasn’t as strong, but he was still a Maia or the like. That is why the Valar still showed their concern by sending the Istari to help
[ChristineGolden] Wasn’t he Morgoth’s underling, Puma? I seem to recall he was Morgoth’s Lieutenant.
[sauronswife] he was.
[Darkover] Right, Puma! That was the point I was trying to make earlier, about why there are no “evil” stewards as such–evildoers don’t trust their underlings, with good reason.
[Erkenbrand] most of the elves do act as Stewards to the men, that may be because they are wise enough to know that they (the elves) will not be as influential in saurons downfall
[ChristineGolden] Ok, I see what you mean, Puma: I agree
[Puma] yes.jennie.quite correct…but not a steward
[Demetria] Elrond was the only elf entrusted with the ring and sword for Gondor
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry? Who’s not a steward?
[Darkover] Would anyone call Cirdan a steward? I would.
[Erkenbrand] does a Steward have to have power?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t consider the elves to be stewards.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t remember what I’d said. lol
[Puma] i would also Darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Yes, Erkenbrand, otherwise, what is he steward of?
[sauronswife] The evil powers do have to entrust /something/ to their underlings otherwise they’d have to do it all themselves.
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol, I do that, too, Jennie.
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: i think we agreed that generally this is the case. There must be a resposibility over something.
[ChristineGolden] No, I’d call Cirdan a ruler, Darkover.
[Puma] cirdan.gave narya to gandalf.as he.being the most foresighted of all in middle earth.knew gandalf would take care of middle earth
[sauronswife] A resposniblity the steward agrees to take up or one they end up with?
[Darkover] Yes, Sauronswife, but that doesn’t mean the main baddies are going to let their underlings have very much power. Why do you think Saruman wanted the Ring? and why do you think Sauron didn’t want him to have it?
[Erkenbrand] cirdan was given one of the elvish rings and so was sort of entrusted with stewardship…
[Demosthenes] Whether this responsibility has to be explicit or can be left implied is probably what we’re really mulling over.
[Demetria] because Sauron knew what he did do his boss
[Goldberry] was melian a steward of doriath?
[ChristineGolden] steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially, the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one’s care
[Gondhir] Sauron never betrayed Morgoth that I know
[Goldberry] she protected it
[Darkover] I don’t see why it necessarily has to be explicit, just that they have power
[Puma] good one goldberry
[Gondhir] also, I would say that no, she was not
[Darkover] No, Goldberry, I think Melian was co-ruler
[Goldberry] thanks, puma
[Gondhir] any more than Galadriel was Steward of Lothlorien
[Darkover] not the same as a steward
[sauronswife] lol Haha Demetria. I still consider Sauron has always been a steward of Morgoth…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I tend to agree. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck … well, we can argue … but really it’s a duck.
[Demetria] no, but he had enough power and knowledge to take over where Morgoth left off
[ChristineGolden] No, a steward must be delegated power by someone above him/her.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Gondhir] (I do think that Galadriel is mostly a powered-down literary clone of Melian)
* sauronswife nods to Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] And we should just admit it.
[Puma] sauron was a piker compared to morgoth
[Puma] he never had a fraction of the power
[sauronswife] He did continue Morgoth’s destructive designs though…
[Darkover] he was still formidable enough, though, Puma
[Puma] not in the same way.sauron wanted to rule the people
[Puma] morgoth wanted them all dead
[Demetria] Sauron wanted to rule them
[marco] saurons evil was more direct than morgoths, morgoths was more spreaded out
[Goldberry] morgoth wanted to corrupt and destroy ME
[Goldberry] destroy the goodness
[Gondhir] I think Morgoth originallly wanted to rule everything
[Demosthenes] To enslave them all. That’s what Gandalf says about hobbits and the shire at the beginning of LOTR.
[Puma] morgoths ring was all of arda
[Jenniearcheo] And he liked sparklies
[Gondhir] but when he couldn’t
[Gondhir] he settled for just destroying everything
[Gondhir] “If I can’t have it, no one can”
[Gondhir] and by “it”, I mean EVERYTHING
[Darkover] I think both Morgoth and Sauron wanted to corrupt and destroy M-E and everything in it. The difference in them lies only in scale, not in malice.
[sauronswife] Good piont there Gondhir.
[Demosthenes] He does not need you – he has many more useful servants – but he won?t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.?
[marco] sauron was kinda or smart than morgoth in a way
[Goldberry] lol gondhir
[Gondhir] Sauron didn’t want to DESTROY things
[Gondhir] he wanted to CONTROL them
[Puma] sauron’s thoughts were not all evil at 1st.they only became so later
[Darkover] Well, Gondhir, he gladly would have destroyed anyone or anything in his way
[Gondhir] well, yes
[Gondhir] he didn’t MIND destroying things
[Gondhir] but it was a means to an end
[Gondhir] for Morgoth, the destruction WAS the end
[Puma] yes Gond!!!!
[Darkover] and if the control is crushing, is there such a big difference between destruction and utter enslavement?
[Darkover] Seems to me we’re splitting hairs. Both were terrible villains.
[sauronswife] I need to reread Silm and look at this whole Morgoth-destroying-everything idea. ANd yes huge differnce between destruction and enslavement.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: you can’t rule something you’ve destroyed?
[Gondhir] no one’s saying that Sauron was GOOD
[Goldberry] true darkover
[TolkienGirl] Sauron is the Illusive Man of Middle Earth.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I wouldn’t invite either of them to a party twice.
[Darkover] lol, Jennie.
[Goldberry] lol jennie
[Gondhir] although his motives may have been good-ish in the beginning
[Erkenbrand] would anyone say that whilst theoden was unable to rule, eomer and theodred acted as stewards of rohan
[Demosthenes] You can rule an orc … but if you lop the head off an elf, it doesn’t do what you want anymore.
[Gondhir] lots of people have felt that a “strong man” in control is preferable to chaos
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, Erkenbrand.
[Darkover] Not sure I would agree, Sauronswife. Anyway, both destruction and enslavement are miserable fates.
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: Yes, but a dead elf is better than a rebellious elf. 😉
[Puma] think of morgoths power.by being in the body of arda…and both elves and mens bodies came from arda…..he tainted tham all
[ChristineGolden] No, I’d say that Grima was Theoden’s steward, Gondhir.
[Jenniearcheo] lol dems
[ChristineGolden] He had the power to issue orders; he was in charge of the King’s possessions (e.g., his sword), etc.
[Puma] grima was only theodens steward from 3014 on.when he sort of gave the orders
[marco] morgoth risked too much of his power in trying to be so powerful
[Darkover] Actually, to get back to your question, Demosthenes, I think both Morgoth and Sauron–and all their ilk–wanted to rule/dominate all life, everything, completely. But if they couldn’t do that, then they wanted it destroyed.
[Puma] b4 that just an advisor
[Jenniearcheo] But arguably Theodred and Eomer went riding around taking care of Rohan when nobody else was.
[Darkover] as Frodo once said, speaking of Sauron; “What does he not hate?”
[Gondhir] I don’t think Sauron ever got to the level of nihilism that Morgoth did
[Gondhir] hey may have gotten to that point in time
[Puma] yes jennie.both did it against orders
[Demosthenes] He ordered Eomer imprisoned. He was the voice of the king. Very like Mouth of Sauron, in fact.
[Erkenbrand] grima may have been a steward of Théoden, just not a steward of rohan
[Darkover] Again, Gondhir, just a matter of scale or degree, not intent.
[ChristineGolden] True, Puma, but we’re not given any details of Theoden and Theodred’s relationship and Eomer didn’t have any real power as I recall.
[Gondhir] I think it IS a matter of intent
[Gondhir] Sauron intended to rule.
[Demosthenes] Was he also Saruman’s steward? Now, that’s more debatable.
[Erkenbrand] marshall of the mark?
[Gondhir] Morgoth intended to destroy
[Jenniearcheo] The question is whether Grima Wormtongue’s orders were legit, or whether Théoden’s were when he was in his depressive state
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was king; that made Grima steward of Rohan.
[Puma] the battles of the fords of isen in UT give a good account of events in rohan jennie
[Erkenbrand] he didn’t act like a steward should though
[Gondhir] being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward
[Demetria] Theoden’s mind was taken over by Sauruman, therefore Grima was actually his steward
[ChristineGolden] Like we said earlier, Erkenbrand, there’s good stewards and bad ones.
[Gondhir] Theoden’s mind was NOT taken over by Saruman in the book
[Darkover] I seem not to be making myself clear, Gondhir. My point that I’m trying to make, in my rambling way, is that both Morgoth and Sauron would have loved to dominate everything in M-E, and probably the universe.
[Puma] pelendur of gondor can be conceived of as a bad steward
[Darkover] Morgoth was stronger, but in terms of what they both wished to do, both Morgoth and Sauron were intensely evil.
[Goldberry] grima was seeing to sarumans orders, so maybe that makes him saruman’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] I would say that Grima was Théoden’s steward. Eomer and Theodred were Rohan’s.
[Demetria] thank you Goldberry
[Puma] saruman did not share power either
[Gondhir] following someone’s orders does not make one a steward
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the wanted ultimate control. boss-ship, not stewardship.
[Gondhir] otherwise everyone in Gondor would be a steward of Gondor
[Darkover] I would call Grima Saruman’s spy, and Theoden’s advisor, but not a steward.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] That would make him a double agent, but he wasn’t Saruman’s steward because Grima had nothing to do with the operations of Isengard.
[Goldberry] demetria: 🙂
[Darkover] Good observation, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Well, again, we probably don’t know about the day-to-day
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, sorry. Isengard. No
[Jenniearcheo] I thought you meant Rohan
[Erkenbrand] but grima did have a hand in some of srumans overall plans (shire)
[Jenniearcheo] perhaps as an agent. Doesn’t make him a steward
[Darkover] In a very slave-like way, Erkenbrand. Hardly a steward.
[Demosthenes] An automaton?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi selinah
[Darkover] Hi, Selinah
[Demosthenes] heya selinah
[Gondhir] movieTheoden was arguably an automaton of Saruman 😉
[Demetria] hello selinah
[Erkenbrand] I am not suggesting that he is a steward, he was bullied into what he did
[Gondhir] can’t think of any automatons in the book, though
[Erkenbrand] hi selinah
[Puma] isildur can be seen as a flawed steward of middle earth
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: the Nazgul.
[Gondhir] the Nazgul took orders
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Puma
[Gondhir] probably the closest to an automaton
[Erkenbrand] isildur tried to stop saruman
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Puma, because Isildur’s power was limited to Gondor.
[Gondhir] but they do seem to have had to “report in” from time to time
[Puma] isildur also ruled arnor
[Demetria] Isildur was a king in his own right
[Gondhir] Isildur’s “power” extended beyond Gondor but I think including all of ME is stretching it
[Gondhir] there’s a lot more to ME than Gondor and Arnor
[Jenniearcheo] Still. He was arguably flawed
[Gondhir] and he doesn’t seem to have been anyone’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] Wherever he was in charge
[Puma] yes…..but by taking the ring.that involved all of middle earth
[Erkenbrand] It may have been limited to gondor but he did try to act as a steward to most of ME
[Jenniearcheo] Is a king a steward?
[Gondhir] although it’s possible that his father Elendil entrusted some things to him in a steward-like way
[Gondhir] but I dont’ think we’re told that
[ChristineGolden] Oops, sorry, yes Isildur also ruled Arnor, but he certainly didn’t control the elven or dwarf kingdoms.
[Demosthenes] jennie: if you want to get into divine mandates and such … yes?
[Jenniearcheo] That was my thought
[Puma] we are talking stewards…not Stewards
[Demosthenes] If not, probably not?
[ChristineGolden] I think that’s stretching it.
* sauronswife needs Merlin to tell her when the capital S is used… 🙁
[Jenniearcheo] I think when it’s a title
[sauronswife] Chat screen-reader….
[Jenniearcheo] When you are formally appointed the Steward of Gondor ™
[Puma] isildur took the ring…..to be a steward of it.with good intent….but we all saw how it turned out
[ChristineGolden] I think a steward must have specific duties/responsibilities and be answerable to a higher authority.
[Demosthenes] Isildur does seem to have been the especial guardian of the white tree though.
[Gondhir] I don’t think Isildur even realized it had “power”
[Demosthenes] A very specific sort of stewardship.
[Puma] very true Demz!!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] What if that higher authority is the will of the people?
[Gondhir] he seems to have thought it was just a pretty ring that he took from Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Not that you vote for kings . . .
[Darkover] But can’t that responsibility be implied, Chris?
[Gondhir] as “wereguild”
[Erkenbrand] if isildur tried to be a steward of the ring, could you not suggest that Gollum also tried to be a steward of the ring
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure what you mean, Darkover – in what context?
[Darkover] No way, Erkenbrand
[Puma] isildur when he took the ring.knew what it was
[sauronswife] Yeah… He promised not to let Sauron have it.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Gollum really knew what it was.
[sauronswife] At that POINT anyway… 🙁
[Jenniearcheo] At least while he had it
[Erkenbrand] he still tried to care for it and protect it
[Gondhir] Puma: Maybe, but his letter (that Gandalf later found) makes no mention of any power it may have had. He doesn’t seem to have wanted to dominate the other bearers of Rings of Power (the primary purpose of the One Ring).
[sauronswife] See this whole Steward thing seems to be time-limited.. 🙁
[Darkover] Well, Denethor–we’re back to him–for example, Chris. He was the umpteenth in a line or ruling stewards. By then, his power and authority were pretty clear, but it was assumed, until Aragorn’s return, that the King was long gone.
[Goldberry] gollum wanted it for himself
[Jenniearcheo] Was Morgoth the steward of the silmarils in his crown? Nah
[Darkover] Thus, implied power, but definitely power
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Hmmm … the fate of Numenor might imply that the kings of Numenor, Arnor and Gondor had some sort of answerability to the lord of the west.
[Jenniearcheo] He sure tried to keep ’em, but that doesn’t make him a steward, does it?
[Demosthenes] And thus in a sense power IS delegated to them.
[sauronswife] But the Silmarils weren’t an evil object. Melkor wasn’t trying to keep them from a being who would when having them back use them to take over the world.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, ok. No, because the original power was bestowed on Denethor’s ancestors. Time may have expanded those powers, but it was a formal transfer of power.
[Gondhir] this can arguably all go back to Divine Right of Kings
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: yes. it’s all very wrapped up in that.
[sauronswife] Why I feel Gollum is a cap-Steward, Melkor with the SIlm would not be.
[Gondhir] where all kings are divinely appointed by God to rule in His name
[Goldberry] we’re getting into the difference between stewarding & ruling over I think
[ChristineGolden] Being held accountable for your actions and choices isn’t the same thing as being given specific duties, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] But you said that a true steward had to answer to somebody. I hope I’m not nitpicking, but with the King long gone, as everyone assumed, who would Denethor and his predecessors have to answer to, Chris?
[Gondhir] God is the Ultimate King of the World
[Goldberry] what is the difference?
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think there’s a firm answer to any of this
[Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but any ruler or leader of any kind who claimed to answer only to God, would make me very nervous.
[Gondhir] especially since everyone here seems to be using a different definition of “steward” 😉
[Goldberry] lol gondhir
[Gondhir] Darkover: Maybe, but that’s because you don’t buy the theory.
[Demosthenes] jennie: i do think it’s quite shaded and not you’re in, or you’re out.
[Erkenbrand] as anyone actually got a dictionary definition of steward?
[ChristineGolden] No one, which is one of the reasons Denethor fell from reason into power-madness, Darkover. I believe there’s a quote on that between him and Gandalf.
[Gondhir] there have historically been lots of people who DID
[Jenniearcheo] Someone already posted one high above, Erkenbrand
[Gondhir] most of the major kingdoms of Europe were based around the concept, at least for a while
[ChristineGolden] Something about Denethor wanting things to stay as they had and he didn’t need no stinkin’ king to return.
[Jenniearcheo] Chris, was that you? Still have it?
[Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but we’re talking about Tolkien’s M-E
[ChristineGolden] I do, Jen.
[Gondhir] yes, that’s true
[Puma] i dont think denethor had power madness….he went mad.but did not abuse power….he just decided to kill himself etc
[Gondhir] and the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor seem to have been operating under that theory
[Gondhir] and in their case, it seems to have been TRUE
[Demosthenes] a person who manages another’s property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.
[Demosthenes] a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.
[Darkover] lol, Chris, yes, I remember that
[Demosthenes] an employee who has charge of the table, wine, servants, etc., in a club, restaurant, or the like.
[Demosthenes] a person who attends to the domestic concerns of persons on board a vessel, as in overseeing maids and waiters.
[ChristineGolden] Steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one’s care/
[Demosthenes] stolen from dictionary.com
[Goldberry] so caring for, not ruling over
[Darkover] Well, Puma, arguably Denethor was abusing his power when he tried to immolate Faramir as well as himself.
[Puma] but you can both care for and rule in certain instances
[Gondhir] the position of Steward of Gondor seems to have originally begun as simply the manager of the king’s household
[Goldberry] true, puma
[Gondhir] like, historically, a lot of other important roles
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: seems like that to me, too.
[Gondhir] chamberlain’s originally actually dressed the ruler
[Jenniearcheo] So, by Chris’s definition, you have the responsibility to manage something “entrusted to one’s care.” It implies you are answerable to someone. But doesn’t specify that
[Darkover] Until Mardil the Good Steward, anyway, Gondhir
[Jenniearcheo] It could simply be that you are answerable to the people
[Gondhir] marshals and constables took care of the horses
[Jenniearcheo] And so Kings could be Stewards
[Goldberry] wb marco
[Erkenbrand] since Grima didn’t responsibly manage anything, he is still a “Steward”
[ChristineGolden] Well, except for the Shire, I don’t believe they held elections in ME, Jennie. Not trying to be a smart ass-et, just saying that democracy wasn’t a big thing in ME.
[Gondhir] again, being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward
[Darkover] True, Jennie. “The people” didn’t vote.
[Jenniearcheo] Nnnno . . . . as I said, you don’t vote for kings. I agree.
[Jenniearcheo] But you are responsible to them
[Jenniearcheo] With great power, and all that
[Puma] well…the people sort of did vote for aragorn
[Darkover] And Faramir, as last ruling Steward, did ask the people of Minas Tirith if Aragorn/Elessar should enter and rule there.
[Jenniearcheo] Without support of the people, kings can be deposed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say a king is responsible for his people, but not to them.
[Darkover] Everyone cheered, and he went on in.
[lunarising] wait what? how did they vote for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I think that was part of the ceremony, Darkover
[Goldberry] well, it’s getting late, but it’s been great 🙂
[Gondhir] you could argue that the (or a) purpose of the President of the United states is to responsibly manage the government of the United States. And, regardless of your politics, there have undoubtedly been some Presidents who you would think failed to do that. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t President.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Goldberry
[ChristineGolden] they cheered, luna.
[Darkover] Sure, but in principle, an important part.
[Puma] no official vote..but by acclaimation
[Demosthenes] lunarising: there was a popular acclaim thing after the Cormallen. A bit like ayes and nays in Parliament.
[Darkover] bye, Goldberry
[lunarising] ah thanks Chris
[lunarising] forgot that part, thanks too Dem
[Demosthenes] In the Westminster system you can actually have a vote (and bills passing) without a formal Division.
[Jenniearcheo] Kings can be deposed; Presidents impeached. It happens
[Jenniearcheo] Not often in ME, of course
[ChristineGolden] Does anyone really think Aragorn would have just rode away if they people hadn’t cheered? “Okay, I’m outta here.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: the master of lake-town.
[Jenniearcheo] Saruman was kicked out of Isengard, but not by subjects
[Puma] yes.laketown did vote!!!!
[Puma] good one Demz!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Dems
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: he might have.
[Gondhir] Laketown seems to have operated a lot like a medieval German township
[lunarising] so could he be considered a steward?
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, he seems to be the quintessential politician.
[lunarising] he was elected like Sam as mayor of the shire
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he was a really sucky steward of Laketown
[Darkover] Happily, the people did welcome him. Under the circumstances, no reason why they shouldn’t have.
[Jenniearcheo] But people probably didn’t realize how bad until Smaug came
[Darkover] Aragorn at Minas Tirith, I mean
[Demosthenes] I think the master of lake-town is a steward. A bad one, or a corrupt one, but still a steward.
[ChristineGolden] Do we know that the Master of Laketown was elected by the people?
[Gondhir] People probably didn’t realize how bad until he absconded with the treasury…
[Gondhir] ChristineGolden: Probably by a subset of the people
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t appear to have been a hereditary position
[Gondhir] I doubt “voter” included all adult persons
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that, Gondhir. (re: treasury)
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly, it does mention that the master was elected.
[Demosthenes] Whether that means universal suffragacy … who knows?
[Puma] it does Demz
[ChristineGolden] More likely, the town leaders were a council and the Master chosen from among them.
[ChristineGolden] the town leaders formed a council…
[Demosthenes] puma: it could have been limited to property owners.
[Puma] at times the steward of gondor was chosen by a council.not all stewards had sons
[Jenniearcheo] On a pier-built lake, what constitutes “property”?
[Gondhir] a house?
[Demosthenes] jennie: anything that floats. 🙂
[ChristineGolden] shops, homes, businesses.
[Darkover] your own boat, probably
[ChristineGolden] boats, money, assets.
[Jenniearcheo] Gold doesn’t float
[Puma] bard has his arrow
[Darkover] we seem to have drifted a bit, no pun intended, from stewardship
[Jenniearcheo] very small rocks
[ChristineGolden] Does anyone think the Noldor were stewards? Because I don’t.
[Darkover] I don’t, either.
[lunarising] no but I think Galadriel sort of became one when she got to Lorien
[Puma] no.the noldor were not stewards
[sauronswife] If they were (still trying to decide on the definition of steward or cap-Steward) they would have been horrendous ones.
[Demosthenes] I think they had an implied obligation to care for middle-earth for their successors.
[Darkover] I think Galadriel was the ruler of Lorien, not a steward
[Demosthenes] Arguably, they were pretty bad at it.
[ChristineGolden] From whom, Demosthenes? They revolted against the Valar, so who did they represent?
[Puma] galadriel was specifically not a queen.nor celeborn king
[Darkover] If you want to look at it that way, Demosthenes, probably everyone who lives in M-E does. Doesn’t make us all stewards, though.
[Demosthenes] From Eru. Or from the Music of the Ainur…
[Puma] they both took over a stewardship of lorien…..after amroth left
[Puma] to preserve it
[ChristineGolden] I think they ruled it, Puma. Didn’t the Fellowship have to be taken before Galadriel and Celeborn when they were captured to have their fate determined?
[Darkover] Yes, they did. Chris is right.
[Puma] not for their fate
[Jenniearcheo] Lord and Lady the same as King and Queen?
[Gondhir] Celeborn & Galadriel were still not Amroth’s Stewards
[Demetria] well supper time for me, it was lovely meeting you all, and enjoyed the discussion
[Puma] not amroths steward
[Gondhir] there was no fiction that he was going to ever come back
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Demetria
[Darkover] Galadriel and Celeborn may not have used the title of Queen and King, but they had as much power
[Puma] but steward imo can mean to preserve
[Gondhir] or that there was anyone they were answerable to
[Darkover] and as Gondhir said, Amroth was never coming back
[Demosthenes] If the elves must inevitably depart to Aman, then … Middle-earth isn’t theirs forever. Thus they have a (moral) obligation to take care of things in the meantime. A stewardship of sorts.
[Gondhir] unless you go back tot he whole “Divine Right” thing
[Darkover] and that was something in canon that Tolkien never really cleared up, anyway
[ChristineGolden] I’d say the difference isn’t worth arguing, Jennie. They held the power of life and death over the Fellowship, whether you call them lord an lady or king and queen.
[Jenniearcheo] I agree
[Puma] elves dont have to go to aman.they can remain.they have free choice
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO, that makes the definition of stewardship so broad as to be almost meaningless
[Jenniearcheo] Also the power to protect or neglect Lothlorien
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, there has to be limits on a word’s definition or it has no value.
[Puma] in one way the noldor can be considered stewards…by keeping morgoth bottled up in the north……they saved much of arda
[Jenniearcheo] They can be fuzzy limits
[Demosthenes] Darkover: sometimes I think that’s the implication of Gandalf’s line to Denethor.
[Gondhir] I don’t think the Noldor were doing that for that reason
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[marco] noldor were selfish
[Puma] i dont either.but it was the result
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: I think that Gandalf was ACTUALLY APPOINTED to be the Valar’s Vicar in Middle Earth
[Gondhir] and the Valar were actually appointed to be Eru’s Vicar in Arda
[Jenniearcheo] vicar. lol
[ChristineGolden] Results can be accidental. I think the Noldor were trying to protect their own kingdoms, their own lands.
[Darkover] And Demosthenes, Gandalf was indeed a steward, but he was given a specific assignment by the Valar, which he willingly accepted. He was not just a person born in M-E
[Demosthenes] gond: yah, but … his statement feels much broader than “i was sent by blah blah blah”
[Darkover] Maybe. Again, we seem to be splitting hairs.
[Puma] splitting hairs is what we do here.lol
[Gondhir] Jenniearcheo: “Vicar” doesn’t just (or originally) mean something like “priest or preacher”
[Jenniearcheo] Still conjures Dawn French in my mind. Sorry
[Gondhir] it’s related to VICARious
[ChristineGolden] me, too, Jen.
[Gondhir] religious vicars were originally “bishop’s vicars”
[Gondhir] who took care of the religious duties the bishop couldn’t be bothered to do
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not arguing with you. Just snickering at the same time.
[Gondhir] well, I’m just saying, in case other people didn’t realize 😉
[Demosthenes] Do we have any other examples we haven’t covered? Did we touch on Fangorn/Treebeard?
[Jenniearcheo] I think you explained it pretty well
[Jenniearcheo] Briefly. And Tom
[Darkover] We seem to have covered everything.
[Puma] treebeard was a guardian of the forests.or in 3rd age fangorn forest
[ChristineGolden] Okay, the Valar were Eru’s stewards and the Istari were the Valar’s stewards. Denethor’s line was the stewards of Gondor – was the line of Eorl stewards for the kings of Gondor?
[lunarising] what about Ciridan and the grey havens?
[Jenniearcheo] Only to point out that neither seemed to have anyone obvious to answer to
[Jenniearcheo] But who demonstrably took care of an area
[Darkover] I mentioned that, lunarising. I thought he might qualify as a steward, but no one here seemed to agree.
[Demosthenes] lunarising: cirdan seems to have had a responsiblity over the straight path.
[Puma] i agree Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I think the ents were stewards created by Yavanna to guard her forests against Aule’s dwarves, etc.
[lunarising] oh – ok that might have been when I fell offline
[Darkover] Okay, one person does, then. Thank you, puma 🙂
[Puma] cirdan gave narya to gandalf…..
[lunarising] but I’d agree with you
[Puma] by giving the ring.he was acting as a steward to middle earth
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say Cirdan is the Ferryman. He stewards folks across the ocean.
[ChristineGolden] I would call Cirdan a guardian, Darkover. I know, hair-splitting, but he assumes the responsibility himself. He isn’t appointed to the task that we know of.
[Puma] cirdan was much more than that
[lunarising] he’s a small steward but still a steward
[Puma] he was apponted Christine.its in peoples of middle earth
[Demosthenes] Like Tom B stewards his tiny little patch.
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t recall how Cirdan came to be in the position he occupied.
[ChristineGolden] If you don’t mind, by whom, Puma?
[sauronswife] Visions from the Valar I believe…?
[Puma] jrr wore a late essay on cirdan.explaining his place
[Demosthenes] Darkover: last man standing. Err, elf.
[Darkover] Hi, Alex, which is a lot easier to spell
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[Puma] by the valar
[ChristineGolden] Thanks. 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry, Alex.You’ve sort of come in at the end of a long conversation.
[Alex] dont i always
[Puma] its there…..i can get quote anytime you ask
[Jenniearcheo] Be here next week an hour and a half earlier than now.
[Demosthenes] Final arguments then? Last chance. 🙂
[ChristineGolden] Then, yes, I’d say Cirdan was a steward, but I don’t know of anyone appointing Bombadil.
[ChristineGolden] So, I’d call him a guardian, not a steward.
[sauronswife] I feel like I’m FORGETTING someone but meh.
[Alex] yes ma’am!
[Puma] great job Demz.this was a fun topic
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’ll take you up on that, Puma. 😉
[sauronswife] This topic has given me a headache. lol
[Darkover] I think we covered about everybody. And we all had a lot to say. Exceptionally good discussion!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, thanks all.
[lunarising] yes indeed
[ChristineGolden] old man willow
[lunarising] thanks as always Demosthenes
Session Close: Sun Jul 07 09:42:01 2013 Posted in Barlimans, Green Books, Hall of Fire, Hobbit Book, Lord of the Rings, LotR Books, The Hobbit, The Two Towers on July 13, 2013 by Demosthenes