Barliman's Chat A couple of weekends ago, we delved into the aftermath of the battle of Helm’s Deep and joined Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn on the short, but interesting, The Road to Isengard.

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. Plus, as a reminder: this weekend (Saturday June 29 at 6pm EDT) the Hall of Fire topic is the next chapter of The Two Towers: Book III Chapter IX – Flotsam and Jetsam. See you then!

Session Start: Sun Jun 16 07:15:44 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to “The HOF topic for today: Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard. | General TORn chat thataway! click ]”
[Demosthenes] Okay, let’s get this dog an pony show under way.
[Demosthenes] Other folks can catch up.
[miriel] I wonder, did they have nice maps?
[Jenniearcheo] Did who?
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to notice that — at a meta-level — this chapter is a lot of description bookended by two pieces of dialogue?
[miriel] for the road to isengard
[Turin] for middle earth
[sunshower] Gimil waxes poetic?
[Xanaseb] hmm Mithrandir, nope
[Jenniearcheo] They do go into rather a lot of geographical detail
[Mithrandir] you should get it
[Demosthenes] sunshower: that’s the frontispiece. πŸ™‚
[Mithrandir] it’s an excellent help
[sunshower] yep
[Demosthenes] and the hobbits are the endpiece
[Jenniearcheo] But it seems mostly to illustrate the ruin of the place
[Jenniearcheo] Why wouldn’t they walk on the road down by the riverbed?
[ChristineGolden] I thought it went beyond geographical detail; much of it was used for effect.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Before and after
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what sort of effect? mood-setting?
[Demosthenes] Something else?
[sunshower] the…what’s next? effect
[dzeno] anyone played ROTK on PS2 or PC? the road to Isengard was amazing there πŸ™‚
[Mithrandir] YES dzeno
[Raurenkili] I did
[Xanaseb] dzeno
[Mithrandir] :/
[Xanaseb] kind of off topic
[Gothmog] true was awesome
[Jenniearcheo] But kind of on
[ChristineGolden] Not just mood-setting
[Mithrandir] In fact i just re-finished the crack of doom level
[Demosthenes] I’d like to focus on the book chapter if we could please.
[Mithrandir] just a few minutes ago lol
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what else then?
[ChristineGolden] There’s almost a sense of claustrophobia and the sense of the trees closing in on them.
[Mithrandir] Ok! So we start. By all means! The first eve question is! Who do you think lead the army of Isengard to battle???
[Turin] sauman?
[Mithrandir] no
[ChristineGolden] As though, “this is the road you must take to your doom, whatever it may be.”
[Xanaseb] lol
[Xanaseb] *true
[Jenniearcheo] They seem to shun the road for a while
[Demosthenes] A sense of … horror?
[Demosthenes] like … lovecraft might do?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t mean “road” literally, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure. They get back on it the next day, for some reason
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they literally do
[ChristineGolden] No, not horror, “doom” in the sense that Tolkien so often uses it.
[Demosthenes] doom?
[Jenniearcheo] They do seem creeped out by the dry river bed
[ChristineGolden] fate, destiny
[Xanaseb] the topic is ‘Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard.’
[Xanaseb] πŸ™‚
[ChristineGolden] “all roads lead to Isengard, whether they want to go there or not.”
[Xanaseb] hehe, quite symbolic that quote, I’d say
[Mith] and that means we cant discuss the aftermath of the battle at helms deep??
[sunshower] hmmm I more thought the detours were to avoid the group seeing some behind the scenes things
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. The road follows the river and then breaks straight towards Isengard
[Demosthenes] mithrandir: we’ll come to that soon.
[Susanita] hello Radagast
[Radagast] hello
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: a wyrd then?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, that’s a good way to describe it.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that they’re not already creeped out by the forest
[Demosthenes] like theoden says … ‘Nay!’ said ThΓ©oden. ‘In the dark hour before dawn I doubted, but we will not part now. I will come with you, if that is your counsel.’
[miriel] all roads lead there, it is both very nicely located geographically, but also.. had it not fallen, it would have changed the outcome of the war considerably
[Oakenshield] Good evening little masters
[Raurenkili] lol
[dzeno] did anyone besides Gandalf knew the true nature oh huorns on that road?
[Xanaseb] yes, very much so miri
[Demosthenes] There’s also a feeling of mythic in the descriptions that plays into that.
[Mithrandir] all roads lead there because it’s close to the gap of rohan and that’s the only plain pass through the misty mountains
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Mithrandir] my opinion
[Demosthenes] and even in gandalf’s riddling, I guess.
[Xanaseb] hey Lurtz
[sunshower] hi Darkover
[ChristineGolden] oh, definitely, even more than Tolkien’s usual religious symbolism.
[miriel] Darkover πŸ™‚
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel!
[Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover:
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, running late today. πŸ˜‰
[Demosthenes] It;’s heroic symbolism though. Like the mound on the eyot at the Fords of the Isen.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris. I get here ASAP after work.
[Demosthenes] Not religious symbolism.
[ChristineGolden] πŸ˜‰
[Darkover] sorry, what is heroic symbolism?
[Jenniearcheo] Then there’s the hike through the forest
[Jenniearcheo] Symbolizing what?
[Darkover] or I should say, what is a symbol of being heroic?
[ChristineGolden] Like teutonic mythology, Darkover .
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the heavy description going on throughout the chapter. The burial mounds, the forest.
[Lasak] hmm?
[Darkover] Right, Demothenes, thank you.
[Turin] they just have to get to isengard. Tolkien love talking about travel
[sunshower] stone, water and wood
[Jenniearcheo] The description of Isengard and Orthanc, before and after
[Jenniearcheo] And the comparison of Orthanc to a wannabe Barad Dur
[Mithrandir] i never really understood what was that black mist that the company encountered on their way to isengard
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, a description of it as one
[Jenniearcheo] Wasn’t that the trees passing them on the way home?
[miriel] I grieved the loss of the trees, they sounded very nice in the early descriptions
[sunshower] I thought the same Jenniearcheo
[Mithrandir] not what i think.
[Demosthenes] Mithrandir: I believe the mist waqs the huorns returning to Fangorn in the night.
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien used geographic and natural descriptions, Turin, to underscore his themes.
[Mithrandir] actually in the morning they see that the bodies of the orcs are gone
[Mithrandir] and that happens after that mist
[Darkover] IMO, that was Tolkien’s idea of “magic,” Chris–the natural world
[Turin] yah i see
[Darkover] I’ve always wondered if the huorns snacked on the orcs.
[Jenniearcheo] I thought they buried them in a mass grave
[Xanaseb] poor trees
[Darkover] I mean, those bodies had to go *somewhere*
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and what Saruman does is a revolt against that natural “magic”.
[Jenniearcheo] On which no grass would later grow
[Mithrandir] no they buried only the men of rohan
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well put!
[ChristineGolden] I would mostly agree with that, Darkover, but he does also occasionally draw upon the supernatural, such as the Huorns.
[Mithrandir] the bodies of the orcs were too much for burial
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the people buried the men of rohan
[Xanaseb] Darkover, fangorn is =huge- and old
[miriel] it was unclear, no-one entered the possible mound to find out
[Xanaseb] bodies would have been dispersed
[Xanaseb] etc.
[miriel] no pun intended
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had the . . . hang on
[Darkover] and scary, Xanaseb
[Xanaseb] or maybe even swallowed up
[Demosthenes] miriel: but nothing would grow there.
[Xanaseb] hm, true
[Demosthenes] Which has some similarities to the place where the fell beast is burned after the pelennor.
[Mithrandir] they left the bodies of the orcs on the ground because gandalf told them to.
[Mithrandir] dont u remember?
[miriel] true, might have been that the decomposing stuff had some very bad levels of metal etc in them
[Xanaseb] I think it’s just the power of Fangorn
[ChristineGolden] Demosthenes is right, there was a dike/ditch where the orcs were supposedly disposed of.
[Turin] thats the best answer
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, and then the huorns walked by and suddenly a huge pit had been delved into the earth and over it stones were piled into a hill
[Jenniearcheo] Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there
[Xanaseb] huorns are nooot to be messed with, clearly
[Darkover] I wouldn’t care to meet a huorn in a dark forest.
[Darkover] agreed, Xanaseb
[Mithrandir] i dont really understand the difference between a huorn and a regular tree. we know what ents are.
[Mithrandir] but huorns.. :s
[miriel] tolkien plays with very common fears there really: moving trees, and half-aware trees
[Mithrandir] i’ve read 100s of times the descriptions but never understood
[sunshower] warrior-trees?
[Darkover] Huorns are very old trees, or tree-like beings, that tend to be bad-hearted
[Radagast] “Is there some mightier sage, of whom we have yet to learn?”-Theoden. Even though we know of course it wasn’t the work of Wizards was Theoden perhaps in the back of his mind beginning to think The Brown Wizard who he learned of maybe long ago as a child in song had a part in this deed of making the forest
[Jenniearcheo] After the battle at the ford, Gandalf gathered all the scattered folk and had them bury the dead of Rohan at the ford
[Darkover] because, as I understand it, they are sick of trees being abused and misused.
[Mithrandir] and here’s the quote by gandalf. “let the orcs lie” said gandalf. Morning might bring new counsel.
[Xanaseb] true. it’s one of those things that I can’t really understand tbh.. why fear trees?
[Jessy] Even if the Huorns had eaten the orc bodies, what of their armor and weapons? Something had to be buried.
[Lasak] Treas in the night is scary
[Lasak] trees
[Darkover] Walking trees who can tear you apart? I would fear them too, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] The trees were grey and menacing, and a shadow or a mist was about them. The ends of their long sweeping boughs hung down like searching fingers, their roots stood up from the ground like the limbs of strange monsters, and dark caverns opened beneath them.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Mithrandir. Because the Huorns took care of it later
[Xanaseb] yes, but I mean normal trees too.. they’re portrayed as quite angry
[Demosthenes] No, they’re not “normal” trees at all.
[ChristineGolden] Dark forests are almost a primal fear. Even Tacitus mentioned them in his writings about the Teutonic tribes.
[Darkover] poor Gimli almost freaked at one point, not that I blamed him.
[sunshower] even see what a tree broken tree branch can do to a house?
[sunshower] – that 1st tree!
[Xanaseb] still… fearing trees? that takes quite something… like.. Fangorn πŸ˜›
[Lasak] Wasn’t this the chapter where gimli and legolas made the deal about visiting fangorn and the caves
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[sunshower] yes Lasak
[Mithrandir] Xana, have u seen snow white and the 7 dwarves by Disney?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: armies do very poorly in forests usually. The Romans were cut to pieces in Teutoburg Forest for example.
[Darkover] and either Pippin or Merry remarks later that the Ents can tear stone as if it is paper. That is an ent, not a huorn, but presumably huorns are very dangerous too.
[Xanaseb] Mith, nope
[ChristineGolden] Well, you can hardly blame Gimli, Darkover, the way everyone keeps lecturing him about his axe whenever they come near a tree.
[Mithrandir] remember when she escapes into the forest?
[Demosthenes] They couldn’t execute with their normal discipline.
[Jess10] So what’s going on?
[Mithrandir] ow u should watch it then! πŸ˜€
[Mithrandir] there are scary trees there
[Darkover] Have you ever seen how tree roots can work their way even through stone? Imagine that speeded up, in a time-lapse photography sort of way.
[mib_2hse03] Tolkien based the huorns on the army in Macbeth that camouflaged themselves as a forest.
[mib_2hse03] trees with swords…
[Demosthenes] Yes he did, mib.
[Xanaseb] inspired by it at least mib
[Jess10] Is someone supposed to be talking or something?
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris πŸ™‚
[Phil] night everyone
[ChristineGolden] We need to talk sometime, Demosthenes. πŸ™‚
[Xanaseb] wouldn’t say ‘based’ but inspired definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Jess10: Demosthenes is moderating the chat
[Jenniearcheo] he poses Questions and we discuss it
[Jess10] Ok, I’m waiting πŸ™‚
[Mithrandir] i wish Puma was here! We really need her! ))
[Susanita] we’re here
[sunshower] oh, we’ll be OK
[Jessy] Tolkien said that he was disappointed that the trees in Macbeth weren’t actually walking, just branches being carried.
[Demosthenes] Hi Jess10. We operate as an open, although moderated chat. You’re free to jump in and add your thoughts on the topic.
[Jenniearcheo] which is currently tree strength. or sommat
[Xanaseb] in any case
[sunshower] goodness gracious
[Xanaseb] where were we?
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the ents that we see at the beginning of the chapter had come to herd the huorns back to Fangorn?
[Demosthenes] Why are they there?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, probably
[Phil] i would say never underestimate the power of nature
[Xanaseb] Dems, maybe maybe
[Xanaseb] but I don’t think the Ents were *that* active
[Jenniearcheo] Going about their herding business
[Darkover] Probably. To take charge of them, at least.
[ChristineGolden] Probably, Demosthenes, although I never thought of that before.
[sunshower] I thought those came to clean up at Helms Deep Dems
[ChristineGolden] Good ideea.
[Xanaseb] they were getting slow and what not
[Lasak] Maybe
[Demosthenes] They must be there for /some/ reason
[Jenniearcheo] They only appear once our company has passed through
[Jess10] I think maybe so, it’s hard to say.
[Lasak] ents is treeherds
[Demosthenes] They clear up the orcs at least. And then disappear back to the north.
[miriel] I think the ents ensured that the hourns did not attack the wrong survivors
[mib_2hse03] I think the ents let the huorns do what they want, hence treebeard saying that they (the huorns) had business with the orcs
[Lasak] so that is their only important task in middle earth, so most likely they would follow the huorns
[Demosthenes] miriel: that could be another reason, yes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf didn’t seem worried
[Jenniearcheo] He led them right through
[Jess10] It makes sense to me!
[Demosthenes] jennie: he did. Maybe there were some ents there already?
[Jenniearcheo] Sneeeaking
[Xanaseb] lol
[ChristineGolden] Why would Gandalf be worried? He already knew what was going on, unlike the others.
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Huorns can differentiate.
[Xanaseb] and hi wanderer
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they didn’t make themselves known until the riders were through. Otherwise, . . . well, panicked horses in the woods . . . not so good
[Demosthenes] ‘It is hot in here,’ said Legolas to Gandalf. ‘I feel a great wrath about me. Do you not feel the air throb in your ears?’
[Demosthenes] ‘Yes,’ said Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] true that
[Xanaseb] as I said, extremely angry forest
[wanderer] hi!
[Xanaseb] more so than usual
[Lasak] Well if you think that if the huorns behaved like the ones in the old forrest there should be some reason for gandalf to be afraid
[Demosthenes] also:
[Darkover] Hello, wanderer
[Demosthenes] ‘Not of all that go on two legs,’ said Legolas. ‘There I think you are wrong. It is Orcs that they hate. For they do not belong here and know little of Elves and Men. Far away are the valleys where they sprang. From the deep dales of Fangorn, Gimli, that is whence they come, I guess.’
[Jenniearcheo] But specifically anti-orc
[ChristineGolden] It would have been an oppressive heat which would reinforce the sense of the forest closing in on/crowding around them.
[Darkover] At least the huorns would draw that distinction
[Jess10] Reminds me of Gimli in the extended scene from the movie lol
[Demosthenes] Yes, Jennie. Quickbeam did mention some sections of forest thyat had been hewed to the ground by orcs.
[Darkover] Orcs are not the greenest people in M-E, and I suspect the forest would remember that.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. I’m sure they don’t even recycle their beer cans
[Demosthenes] Also, I am minded — and this comes later in the next chapter — that the Ents at Isengard allow the (most of the) men inside the ring to escape.
[Darkover] jennie, lol
[ChristineGolden] And in a previous chapter, Fangorn speaks very harshly about the orcs, so no love lost there.
[Demosthenes] Neither the Huorns, nor the ents, engage in wanton retaliation?
[Demosthenes] Is that an important distinction?
[Xanaseb] maybe Dems, true.
[mib_2hse03] in the departure of boromir, the uruks are described as deliberately going out of there way to destroy trees etc
[ChristineGolden] Well, they’re supposed to be part of the good guys, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Treebeard was going to kill M&P if they turned out to be orcs
[Darkover] Probably. I would hate for either ents or huorns to hold a grudge.
[Demosthenes] jennie: how much do you think this extends to Huorns?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure they’re your thinking man, treewise
[Demosthenes] This ability to discrimminate/select.
[Jenniearcheo] Thus the need for herding
[Demosthenes] This is true!
[Demosthenes] They seem like … angsty teenagers?
[Jenniearcheo] More footsoldier than officer
[Lasak] I think huorns would go against everyone who do them wrong
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s a bit harsh.
[sunshower] not so much
[Jenniearcheo] I think huorns would go against anyone the ents pointed them at
[Jessy] The trees in the Old Forest seemed very huorn-ish, yet they went after hobbits as well.
[Jenniearcheo] Exactly
[Lasak] As seen in the old forrest when the hobbits disturbed them. That must be called huorns
[ChristineGolden] Well, they sat back for a long time watching the orcs desecrate the forests of ME before they did anything, so I don’t think they were too quick to anger.
[mib_2hse03] and old man willow as well
[sunshower] hmm Tom has alot to saw about the trees I think
[Darkover] they aren’t hasty, Chris
[Demosthenes] Is this chapter really about the outcome of trying to control/subjugate nature? What do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] Not without a moot and a decision
[Jenniearcheo] I think the Old Forest guys were freelance
[ChristineGolden] I think this chapter has several themes, Demosthenes, but that’s one of them.
[Demosthenes] lol @ freelance.
[Jessy] Demosthenes: but would the forest have retaliated without the Ents to guide it?
[Darkover] I think Tolkien believed that humans should work with nature, that is an underlying theme in all his work, but IMO this chapter is not devoted exclusively to that idea.
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that it is about controlling nature, more the reasons why we shouldn’t industrialises
[ChristineGolden] agreed
[Jess10] Very interesting notations…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there’s a lot of compare and contrast going on. The isen used to be bright and noisy but theoden says it is now sad and mournful. And then we have the before and after of the vale of isengard. the weedy plain.
[Jenniearcheo] I think that was automatic, Lasak
[mib_2hse03] the downside of industrialisation? why we shouldn’t have a mind of gears
[Jenniearcheo] Not to mention the pits and all
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, the slow decay and wilful destruction are both prominent in this chapter.
[Jenniearcheo] And the smoke
[Darkover] and Theoden blames Saruman in particular, the wizard whom Treebeard said had a mind of metal.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the creepy red-nailed hand
[Demosthenes] Yeah. That was strange. Why is the hand painted red suddenly?
[ChristineGolden] blood
[Demosthenes] I’m still puzzled at what that meant. and who might have done it.
[mib_2hse03] orcs of sauron?
[Lasak] I think saruman did it
[Demosthenes] The blood of orcs? Or was it done by the orcs?
[Jenniearcheo] Did it actually change color as Gandalf rode by, or was that a description of the way it always had been compared to now
[Lasak] he talked about how a white cloak could be colored
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of it as “blood dripping from the hands of the quilty,” aka Saruman.
[Darkover] I agree with Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s symbolic.
[Demosthenes] Now Gandalf rode to the great pillar of the Hand, and passed it: and as he did so the Riders saw to their wonder that the Hand appeared no longer white. It was stained as with dried blood; and looking closer they perceived that its nails were red.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s not clear whether it was white a moment ago or not
[Lasak] It’s dried
[Jenniearcheo] Or just that they’re noticing now
[Darkover] or how neatly, if neat at all, the nails were painted
[mib_2hse03] the idea of seeing what it once was, to what it is now?
[Jenniearcheo] Or if there’s a clear top coat
[Jess10] Hmm…I don’t remember this at all. How interesting.
[Darkover] maybe it got bloody in the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: when the ents threw down the walls?
[Jenniearcheo] It seems to be a sign pointing the way to Isengard. Was it always there?
[mib_2hse03] the ents don’t seem the type to use orc blood to paint hands…
[ChristineGolden] No, Jen, it was white as they approached.
[Jenniearcheo] What, just the nails on a sign?
[Darkover] Possibly, Demosthenes
[mib_2hse03] the huorns though
[Lasak] I still think saruman did, or made someone do it.
[Radagast] The True White Wizard using his power to turn the hand red to show he had at last come to deal with Saruman the fallen Wizard
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think saruman must have put it up when he started getting delusions.
[Darkover] why would he do that, Lasak?
[Demosthenes] That’s what i always felt.
[Darkover] Ok, maybe Radagast is right. Possible.
[Lasak] to show he wasn’t white anymore, that white could change
[sunshower] stained
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . why would it suddenly change as Gandalf rode by? Or is it . . . a “your staff is broken” sort of thing?
[Lasak] for Gandalf
[Demosthenes] A stain on white normally indicates corruption.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf riding by revealed it for the not-pure-white that it really was. Like Saruman himself
[Demosthenes] Symbolically, i mean.
[mib_2hse03] the white light may be broken etc,”many colours”?
[Darkover] Which could be how it is actually perceived, instead of what Saruman–if he put it there–had in mind.
[ChristineGolden] “Suddenly a tall pillar loomed up before them. It was black; and set upon it was a great stone, carved and painted in the likness of a long White Hand.”
[Darkover] or maybe it is orc blood, splattered in battle, after all.
[mib_2hse03] so surely a multi-coloured hand for Saruman of many colours
[Darkover] That is why I wondered how neat, if neat it was, the color/blood appeared on the hand.
[Jenniearcheo] I can’t remember, are Saruman’s robes dingy in the next chapter? No longer white?
[Demosthenes] It’s surely a sign that Saruman has fallen.
[Lasak] isn’t his clothes colored in the next chapter
[Jessy] The red nails show the blood on Saruman’s hands for the war he waged against Rohan?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Jessy. Perhaps that
[Susanita] works for me
[mib_2hse03] sarumans cloak is still changing colour in “the voice of saruman”
[Demosthenes] They looked up, astonished, for they had heard no sound of his coming; and they saw a figure standing at the rail, looking down upon them: an old man, swathed in a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Two chapters ahead. Not one
[Demosthenes] That’s from Voice of Saruman
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it’s broader than that. Saruman had the blood of more than the Rohirrim on his hands.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: of ents … of the dunlendings too. he deceived them.
[Jenniearcheo] Bloody mischief in general
[Demosthenes] And even of the orcs who he enslaved.
[Jenniearcheo] And anyone he sent the uruks after
[Demosthenes] Command responsibility and all that.
[mib_2hse03] I doesn’t look like sarumans cloak changes colour after his staff is broken so I don’t think the hand is changed red by gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I would, mib.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps it’s more revealed than actually changed
[Demosthenes] I think it was the Ents. But … i admit it’s ambiguous.
[Darkover] I very much doubt if Gandalf would bother with changing the color of the hand. He is too busy to engage in symbolism.
[Jenniearcheo] Ents with a bloody paint pot?
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that ents would do it, huorns maybe but not ents
[Demosthenes] jennie: they were really really angry.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Lasak] I don’t see who should have done it
[Fingolfin] He probably did it himself to show he was now ruthless and in league with the enemy
[ChristineGolden] No, as Gandalf the White passes, the false facade of Saruman is stripped away.
[Lasak] YEah, I agree with you fing
[Demosthenes] Especially after … beechbone? … got fried.
[Jenniearcheo] yes. I agree with Chris
[mib_2hse03] maybe the orcs of sauron before they ran away
[miriel] it sounds like the “pureness” got washed away, to me
[sunshower] M&P, tagging things?
[mib_2hse03] the orcs always hated the Uruk-Hai
[sunshower] O.O
[Jessy] Tolkien capitalized the name White Hand when he describes the pillar. That would seem to make it more than symbolic that the hand is no longer white…
[Jenniearcheo] tikatikatika shhhhh
[Demosthenes] A different tack: is Gimli’s monologue about Aglarond the longest one he makes in the entire book?
[mib_2hse03] if it was pureness washing away, wouldn’t sarumans cloak change?
[Lasak] yeah..
[sunshower] long , it certainly is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Demosthenes, but it was certainly one of his most poetic.
[Darkover] Certainly it is the most poetic speech gimli makes, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. I was sorry JRD didn’t get to describe it
[mib_2hse03] no, the poem in the fellowship of the ring on moria, 2 1/2 pages
[miriel] but his cloak was already not-white, at that point, right?
[miriel] saruman of the many colours
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, true. He does go into the Durin poem
[Lasak] It was i think
[Jenniearcheo] But this was something he was coming up with himself. From his own heart
[Lasak] That’s why i belive saruman changed the sign too
[Demosthenes] We see Tolkien write a lot about the beauty of nature … but … usually that’s forests. Here we see a different beauty … but still nature.
[mib_2hse03] it was multi-coloured, surely it would go dull
[Darkover] Gimli’s speech even impresses Legolas
[miriel] dems: the one about what he feared before starting the trip (in farewell to lorien) is loooong
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. So much that he agrees to a visit
[Jess10] Yes
[ChristineGolden] I think he described the beauties of the pastoral Shire pretty well, too, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.
[Demosthenes] (just a part of it)
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure the Rohan Tourism Board would be glad of this chapter. They should set up a dwarven resort
[sunshower] lol
[mib_2hse03] if I remember correctly, doesn’t he start a colony of dwarves there?
[Jess10] Funny
[Demosthenes] jennie: And there’s another comparison to the orcs (and Saruman) … Legolas says he fears that the dwarves would ruin all … but Gimli insists they would only work to enhance or bring forth the natural beauty of the caves.
[Demosthenes] mib: yes, he does.
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice that this is the chapter in which a new ‘fellowship’ is forged?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Dems
[Darkover] Allies are made, Chris, if that is what you mean.
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure there’s even gold or jewels there (or surely the Rohirrim would have mined it?)
[ChristineGolden] More than allies, Darkover.
[sunshower] he did mention jewels I think
[miriel] indeed, legolas was afraid the dwarves would mine the place for the precious gems
[mib_2hse03] gems, crystals and precious ores
[Jenniearcheo] And Gimli said they’d only dig to enhance the caves
[Jessy] Do the Rohirrim mine? I don’t remember anything that suggests that they do.
[Darkover] As if Legolas’ own dad, Thranduil, wasn’t a big believer in gems and gold.
[Jenniearcheo] And light them up for effect
[Lasak] I don’t think so
[Demosthenes] Maybe the men of this land are wise to say little: one family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they made.’
[Demosthenes] ‘No, you do not understand,’ said Gimli. ‘No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin’s race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there.
[miriel] lol, true Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Legolas has inherited his father’s acquisitiveness
[Demosthenes] jennie: i don’t think so either.
[Fingolfin] The people of Rohan were probably not skilled enough or had the best equipment for mining precious gems and metals
[miriel] I wonder if this means that the things that could be found were of little value?
[Demosthenes] Fingolfin: that is possible. Although they did repair the Hornburg.
[mib_2hse03] sounds like galadrial was right when she says that gold and riches will have no sway over gimli
[Darkover] and Dwarves were supposed to be the experts on mining, anyway.
[sunshower] oh, I had a question! —- is Legolas’s talk about paying to not go , or get out of, the caves one of the few (or only) times M-e folks talk about paying for things?
[sunshower] (besides the ponies in Bree)
[miriel] since he specifies that “not if” diamonds and gold could be gotten
[Demosthenes] sunshower: there is currency of a sort in Bree (silver pennies)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, it seems the dwarves were responsible for the mining and most of the metalwork of ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Presumably all the commerce in Esgaroth happens with some sort of coinage
[mib_2hse03] I assume that the rohirrim would use Anglo-Saxon style coinage
[miriel] I guess silver worked as a currency quite well
[Darkover] I’ve always gotten the impression such things were left mostly to them, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Smaug probably isn’t lying on bars
[Fingolfin] Or trading and bartering
[Jessy] Oh, this was lovely, but I have to go. Thanks all!
[miriel] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Jessy
[Darkover] bye, jessy, see you next time!
[Demosthenes] I think sunshower is right tho — it’s one of the few instances where the concept of paying is directly mentioned (as opposed to implied)
[sunshower] I was just a bit surprised to hear an Elf say something like that
[mib_2hse03] do elves use currency or do we think that they use a barter system? maybe similar to utopia
[Demosthenes] The other thing is that elf and dwarf now seem able to appreciate each other’s viewpoints — even if they find them confusing.
[miriel] (off topic, but I wonder if the recovery of the gold in Esgaroth led to inflation….)
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes, and IMO, one of the more important aspects of this chapter.
[mib_2hse03] although that could just be legolas and gimli
[miriel] very important point dems
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure if they’re at “appreciation” yet, Demosthenes, but they’ve reached the point of mutual respect for differing opinions.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that is well put
[Jenniearcheo] They do agree to see each other’s sights
[Jenniearcheo] After it’s all done
[miriel] i think it started in Lorien. but Fighting together for a common goal probably helped
[sunshower] enough appreciation to agree to a sight-seeing trip later, maybe
[Demosthenes] ‘You move me, Gimli,’ said Legolas. ‘I have never heard you speak like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves. Come! Let us make this bargain-if we both return safe out of the perils that await us, we will journey for a while together. You shall visit Fangorn with me, and then I will come with you to see Helm’s Deep.’
[ChristineGolden] Not a meeting of the minds, but an opening of them.
[Jenniearcheo] But they’re not quite at the point of going into the door-building business together
[Demosthenes] An offer.
[mib_2hse03] the two races never really got on, in the silmarillion there is something on the two races never working together
[Demosthenes] It is a bit like Celebrimbor and Narvi.
[Darkover] which is why the friendship of Legolas and Gimli was so remarkable, Mib
[miriel] an offer, that gimli accepts, albeit he might not have been too happy about the Fangorn part πŸ˜›
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not be the way of return that I should choose,’ said Gimli. ‘But I will endure Fangorn, if I have your promise to come back to the caves and share their wonder with me.’
[mib_2hse03] imagine If gimli ever entered mirkwood….
[ChristineGolden] There was an estrangement, mib. At one time, many sects of the two were closely involved .
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor and Narvi seem an unusual exception too. The other is probably Eol and the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.
[Demosthenes] But Eol was strange for an elf.
[Jenniearcheo] By this time, wasn’t Mirkwood relatively Mirk-free?
[miriel] mib: he must have, since he travelled from the lonely mountain to rivendell
[ChristineGolden] Eol was strange, period.
[mib_2hse03] the black elf…
[sunshower] kidnapper
[Demosthenes] What /is/ unique is that Legolas was a Telerin (Sindarin) elf, not a Noldo.
[ChristineGolden] No, Jennie, that’s why Legolas went to Rivendell.
[Jenniearcheo] okay
[sunshower] I thought he went to report on Gollum
[mib_2hse03] both
[Fingolfin] Same here
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor was a Noldor … and a craftsman. Legolas isn’t anything like that. Yet here he is extending a hand of friendship.
[Darkover] that too, but Legolas had more than one thing to report.
[mib_2hse03] although with a war from dol guldor I think mirkwood would have got much worse
[sunshower] that Gimli and Legolas thing–may speak alot about Tolkien’s views (which is another conversation)
[Fingolfin] Especially since orcs were able to free gollum from the wood elves
[Demosthenes] Another thought, which brings us to the conversation at the end of the chapter, to what extent are the Hobbits responsible for this friendship?
[Demosthenes] In some ways, Merry and Pippin seem like catalysts to me.
[idril] Gollum was pretty eager to leave the elves… until the orcs took him to Barad-dur later on
[ChristineGolden] Directly? I’d say, not much, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And what about your companions? What about Legolas and me?’ cried Gimli, unable to contain himself longer. ‘You rascals, you woolly-footed and wool-pated truants! A fine hunt you have led us!
[sunshower] the capture of M and P, yes–brought people together
[Lasak] I think thhe hobbits ar very resposible, they are the ones who bring them together
[mib_2hse03] they helped forge the fellowship and lead (not in a good way) to the three hunters which brought legolas and gimli closer
[Demosthenes] ‘You speak for me, Gimli,’ laughed Legolas. ‘Though I would sooner learn how they came by the wine.’
[Darkover] the quest brought them together, Lasak
[miriel] I think the fact that they have friends in common certainly helped
[Jenniearcheo] Well, comparing the relationship now to the way it was the day they left Rivendell . .. they’ve all learned a lot about each other
[Darkover] That is another good thing–hobbits are good and finding and providing food and drink.
[idril] and they had a common goal/enemy
[Darkover] at, not and
[ChristineGolden] If you mean because the hobbits brought them together, yes. If you mean they personally contributed to the friendship, no.
[mib_2hse03] although neither mind that their fathers nearly fought each other in the hobbit….
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that would be a catalyst, i think. By definition.
[ChristineGolden] I think the friendship that formed between the two would be more like going on a long road trip with an acquaintance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps the way hobbits get along with nearly everybody helped Legolas and Gimli reevaluate their ancestral enmity
[ChristineGolden] By the time you get there, you’ll either really dislike or like each other.
[Darkover] True, Chris, hadn’t thought of it that way.
[Demosthenes] In some ways Merry and Pippin were the purpose of the roadtrip
[miriel] also, the hobbits have a very strong “we” feeling, which leads to the other half of the group being “the rest” …in combination with aragorn and boromir being men, the lone dwarf and lone elf must have felt some kind of companionship. Also remember they were both from east of the mountains
[ChristineGolden] Legolas and Gimli do travel together as a pair, esp since Gimli can’t ride a horse.
[sunshower] that particular part of the trip, yes
[sunshower] it was a bit of a detour
[Demosthenes] miriel: that’s a good point too.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, now I’m picturing Legolas riding the motorcycle on our hypothetical road trip, with Gimli in a side car, both with helmets and goggles.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but the hobbits didn’t do anything directly to encourage the friendship: that’s my point.
[sunshower] no, Jenniearcheo!
[idril] lol Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Fingolfin] Because of the ring that frodo received from bilbo legolas and gimli were able to spend months together and bond through dangers and time together even thoughth
[Darkover] and Merry and Pippin chanting, “Road trip! Road trip!” πŸ˜‰
[miriel] Jenniiiee (lol)
[Fingolfin] They were opposites
[ChristineGolden] and legolas telling gimli to watch that axe around the tires?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Demosthenes] And somehow, the Hobbits are able to charm everyone with just a few words.
[sunshower] and the promise of food
[Demosthenes] ‘Welcome, my lords, to Isengard!’ he said. ‘We are the doorwardens. Meriadoc, son of Saradoc is my name; and my companion, who, alas! is overcome with weariness’ – here he gave the other a dig with his foot – ‘is Peregrin, son of Paladin, of the house of Took.
[Demosthenes] Far in the North is our home. The Lord Saruman is within; but at the moment he is closeted with one Wormtongue, or doubtless he would be here to welcome such honourable guests.’
[Darkover] Maybe because hobbits so seldom have ulterior motives, Demosthenes. Hobbits generally get along with each other, and seem to want other people to get along.
[Fingolfin] I think it was because of the lightness of heart the hobbits possessed
[miriel] very clear that they speak in a more “proper” fashion than is natural to them, sounds a bit silly πŸ˜›
[Jenniearcheo] Similar to Thorin’s parting words to Bilbo about appreciating hearth and home. Perhaps M and P cause people to see what’s really important
[Jenniearcheo] And that racial grudges ain’t it
[Xanaseb] proper fashion indeed
[Darkover] What amuses me is how they speak to King Theoden as if he is just an elder, or the Mayor of the Shire–someone they understand is important, but who they are not awed by.
[Demosthenes] Fancy words for a hobbit?
[sunshower] quite
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the quest itself does that, Jenny, stripping things down to their real value.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! they’re very polite, but not obsequieos.
[sunshower] though it sounds like Gandalf had done some coaching on this
[Demosthenes] I misspelled that. 😐
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they have rather met a lot of important people by now.
[Demosthenes] Compare with the sliminess of Wormtongue.
[miriel] dems: you should have said naught, and I would never have noticed πŸ˜›
[Demosthenes] seeya Raurenkili!
[Darkover] Yes, Jennie, but it seems to me that hobbits tend to a natural, if polite, equality with most everyone.
[ChristineGolden] Merry always sounded like he was putting on his “company manners” to me.
[Demosthenes] Merry bowed; and Pippin got up and bowed low. ‘You are gracious, lord; or I hope that I may so take your words,’ he said. ‘And here is another marvel! I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits.’
[Demosthenes] Merry is able to, I guess, elevate his speech a few notches.
[ChristineGolden] I like this particular scene because it plants the seeds for the later attachment formed between Merry and Theoden.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it does that very effectively.
[Demosthenes] And also provides a compare/contrast for Denethor.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[sunshower] oh yeah that is does
[Darkover] Agreed, Demosthenes, I was just thinking that.
[miriel] must be very nice to have encountered someone that knew at least a little about them, probably warmed them up a great deal
[miriel] towards the king
[Darkover] and Theoden *was* polite
[ChristineGolden] for both Denethor and his relationship with Merry’s counterpart, Pippin. A study in contrasts.
[Jenniearcheo] Including an invitation to tell his stories
[Darkover] he expressed an interest in them.
[Demosthenes] I wonder how much of Theoden’s attitude is natural personality, and how mcuh might be Gandalf’s influence?
[Demosthenes] ‘I will come with you,’ said ThΓ©oden. ‘Farewell, my hobbits! May we meet again in my house! There you shall sit beside me and tell me all that your hearts desire: the deeds of your grandsires, as far as you can reckon them; and we will speak also of Tobold the Old and his herb-lore. Farewell!’
[ChristineGolden] Theoden’s attitude toward Merry, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] Probably some of both. If Gandalf believes these small folk are important, then by now, Theoden probably realizes they are.
[idril] yes Denethor’s obvious disdain for Faramir (and his blame of him killing his wife) really shows how Theoden reacts to deaths in his life
[sunshower] Thoeden who took in his neice and nephew? probably the *real* him
[Demosthenes] It doesn’t seem “mere” politeness.
[Jenniearcheo] Some, I think, is mere fascination
[Darkover] Plus, I think the Rohirrim are less formal and full of themselves than are the nobility of Gondor.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Because of his knowledge of history?
[ChristineGolden] I think the two just naturally clicked, as people sometimes do.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yet in some ways their respect for the heroic outweighs that of Gondor.
[Darkover] Good point, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Because he’s a legendary Halfling. One of those weird things of ancient fairytales like the ents, but who is willing to chat
[mib_d3m6e1] hi all guys
[Demosthenes] Eorl the Young is a figure of … myth almost. Helm Hammerhand is larger than life.
[Lasak] hi mib
[Darkover] True, Jennie, who wouldn’t be interested under those circumstances.
[Demosthenes] You don’t get that sense so much from Gondor where history is just history?
[Demosthenes] “just”
[sunshower] arrogance vs. humilty?
[ChristineGolden] faded glory
[idril] good summary, sunshower
[Dwyna] growth vs stagnation
[Jenniearcheo] The confidence of stone walls vs. the practical knowledge that you have to keep your weapons sharp and your horses hale?
[Demosthenes] Something like that.
[Darkover] or maybe just that the Rohirrim are a younger culture than the Gondorians, and so manifest their beliefs and history in different ways.
[Jenniearcheo] Despite the Hornburg, they live in the exposed town on the hilltop
[Dwyna] Rohan still has a sense of change¦ Gondor is stagnant¦ dying?
[ChristineGolden] You have Theoden riding out to do battle; Denethor sends out others to do his fighting.
[Demosthenes] I think gondor is weighed down by its history. Rohan is buoyed up by theirs … and that accounts for Thoeden’s attitude to new things? Here, it’s hobbits and ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Edoras isn’t as impregnable as Minas Tirith. And certainly the outlying villages aren’t
[Demosthenes] It’s a theory anyhow.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, to be fair, remember Denethor’s “I can still wield a brand”?
[Lasak] Intresting
[Lasak] haven’t thought about this before
[sunshower] Gondor has to uphold tradition?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting, Dems
[sunshower] Rohan’s still in the making?
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, but not in battle, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: A bit like Mervyn Peake’s Gormenghast if you’ve ever read that.
[Darkover] That’s the idea behind this weekly discussion, Lasak–sometimes we learn other POVs
* sunshower says whosit’s what’sit?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Gondor’s decline is emblematic of its lack of a king and the decline of the stewards.
[Darkover] Most definitely, Chris
[Demosthenes] Denethor says something like “i would have things as they were in the days of my youth.” he doen’t want change.
[Dwyna] lack of humility and an insistence that no one is good enough to help?
[sunshower] maintain the status quo at all cost
[Darkover] Certainly, he doesn’t want to hand over power to his old rival, Thorongil
[Demosthenes] The hobbits bowed low. ‘So that is the King of Rohan!’ said Pippin in an undertone. ‘A fine old fellow. Very polite.’
[Darkover] “The Road to Isengard” chapter, Marco
[ChristineGolden] I also like the way Tolkien lays the foundation for the question, “what was longbottom leaf doing in Isengard and how did it get here?”
[Demosthenes] I like their summary of theoden
[Darkover] That turns out to be quite significant, at least to the future of the hobbits and the Shire, Chris
[sunshower] a fine old fellow, indeed
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Like he was some old gaffer
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: one could say … not essential to plot … yet it builds the sense of realness aobut the world.
[idril] i forgot about Thorongil! you wonder if Denethor when he heard of “the ranger from the north’s” coming and figured that it was him
[ChristineGolden] The exchange between the hobbits and Gimli was minor, but later turned out to be very significant.
[Jenniearcheo] smoking!!
[Darkover] I think it is a safe bet that he did, idril. The appendices seem to support that idea.
[sunshower] and feasting?
[ChristineGolden] But it was, Demosthenes, if you remember the Scouring of the Shire.
[Demosthenes] But the history of longbottom leaf?
[Darkover] Yes, I was really disappointed that PJ left out the Scouring of the Shire, even if it would have added another hour or two to the last movie.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, with the love of history
[ChristineGolden] No, I was referring to the hobbits discovering pipeweed in Isengard.
[Demosthenes] What is a world but its history?
[Darkover] As I recall, only Aragorn picked up on the significance of that, Chris. He realized it was not a sign of anything good.
[idril] Saruman’s connections with the Shire laid a foundation for him coming and making himself “the Boss”
[ChristineGolden] [looking at Darkover and biting my fingers. πŸ˜‰
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: but we don’t really /need/ to know about tobold hornblower first planting pipeweed in 1070 SR.
[Demosthenes] It’s minutiae.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, at this point. I was just commenting on how Tolkien slips “little things” into a scene that later turn out to be game-changers.
[Darkover] No, but as Gandalf would observe, hobbits can talk about such minutiae for hours, Demosthenes.
[miriel] but it is a fun fact πŸ˜›
[Susanita] good writing πŸ™‚
[Demosthenes] And it builds the world for us.
[Darkover] Right, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn and Co. had spent a certain amount of time keeping The Shire sequestered away from the rest of the world. That Longbottom Leaf is out of the Shire, and in such a worrying place, is ominous
[Darkover] Quite so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I think the “history of pipeweed” bit was simply to create some dialogue between Theoden and Merry that would lead to their friendship. It’s the discovery of pipeweed in Isengard that’s important.
[Demosthenes] jennie: that is something that emerges later, yeah.
[Demosthenes] Yet the details create verisimiltude.
[Demosthenes] A lived-in universe.
[idril] its the little details and histories that create the “super-epic-legacy-full of-things-you-might-see-in-a-history book-in-Numenor’s-libraries” feel to his books
[ChristineGolden] I also thought it was sooooo typical for Merry to be the one on guard, watching for the visitors, while Pippin’s crashed out from ‘too much fun.’
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[idril] πŸ™‚
[Demosthenes] Merry is the older more responsible one.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and that little moment highlights the difference between the two, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] I only have one last talking point. And that’s … Aragorn is really subdued in this chapter. He’s present but says extraordinarily little. It’s as though he’s gone back to being Strider.
[idril] if you call stealing vegetables from farmer maggot’s garden responsible, then yes
[Demosthenes] If only for a day or two.
[Darkover] “Look! Strider the Ranger is back!”
[Darkover] as Pippin said
[Susanita] trying not to step on Theoden’s toes?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes. that is next chapter. πŸ™‚
[Demosthenes] suse: possibly?
[Jenniearcheo] Merry’s a little cheeky, telling Gandalf he hasn’t delivered the message because he’s been pestered by questions. From a King!
[Demosthenes] Letting Gandalf take the lead?
[Darkover] Aragorn isn’t in charge here at the moment, and I think he knows that, and is just lending a helping hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry, took me a minute to find that
[Jenniearcheo] He’s observing
[Jenniearcheo] As is his wont
[sunshower] costume change time
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh yes. he is rather pert there.
[ChristineGolden] He’s not ready to assume his kingship yet; he is still just the heir to Gondor. So, of course, he would defer to a crowned king.
[Darkover] Especially in that king’s own kingdom, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: and Gandalf is the chief counsellor of Theoden right now.
[Demosthenes] So maybe that’s why.
[Jenniearcheo] And with Gandalf back in charge, for now
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and Aragorn has always deferred to Gandalf’s judgment, so it makes sense to me.
[Demosthenes] A good leader knows when to stop managing?
[Demosthenes] Aragorn figures he can stop managing right now.
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had led the Fellowship until he fell. The period where Aragorn had to make all the decisions was a bit of a trial run for leading. Perhaps it’s with some relief he hands over the reins.
[ChristineGolden] Besides, it gives Tolkien the opportunity to deepen the bond between Aragorn and Eomer, which will be important later.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps Gandalf is seeing how easily he does hand them over. Or whether it sits well with him.
[Demosthenes] And we get legolas and gimli instead.
[Darkover] I think that is a bit much, Jennie. Aragorn has led plenty of people many times in other places. He is probably used to it, but he is not someone who would usurp another’s rightful authority, IMO.
[Jenniearcheo] oh, I’m sure he’s not chomping at the bit to lead here
[Darkover] Have we covered about everything in this chapter?
[sunshower] Strider needs a break!
[Jenniearcheo] But he was rather gnawing on his nails through the chase
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we’ve done pretty well.
[sunshower] did we leave out the 42 reference πŸ˜‰
[Darkover] As always, Demosthenes. And this has been enjoyable as usual, but it is late where I am, and I’m getting a bit hungry
[Darkover] So, anything more to discuss?
[Demosthenes] Okay, I think we’re done for the week.
[ChristineGolden] Bye, Darkover. πŸ˜‰ See you next time.
[Esther] I’m glad I just ate
[Demosthenes] Next weekend … probably some trailer dissection.
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Susanita] good ideer dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Until then!
[idril] Bye guys!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone for coming along!
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems
[Jess10] This was neat, thanks guys!
[Demosthenes] You’re all v welcome.
[idril] Great discussion!
[sunshower] thanks dems
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic next week: Oh just some Hobbit trailer yano? | General TORn chat thataway! click –]’
Session Close: Sun Jun 16 09:43:50 2013

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