Barliman's Chat

A couple of weekends ago, we discussed the character of Isildur in Hall of Fire. Was he, we asked, the true shaper of the Third Age? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 8 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be returning to the Hobbit movies for the first time in a while and examining the new details about Tauriel, and what they might mean for the films.

Session Start: Sun May 26 07:15:38 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire

* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Isildur, shaper of the third-age? | General TORn chat thataway! click –]’
[Demosthenes] So this about Isildur fella.
[Puma] Isildur.a way more complex character than many see
[dombillyfan] lotr
[Demosthenes] err, aobut this*
[Demosthenes] puma: why do you say that?
[Puma] well..Isildur preserved the kingship of the numenoreans…and did end up making an error with the ring….but i have reasons not to totally blame him for that
[Demosthenes] Is the former more to the credit of Elendil?
[Puma] but i think the tree is the best place to start as that is young isildur
[Puma] no…….its not
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Darkover] What are we discussing this week?
[Demosthenes] Elendil seems to have driven the exiles. Or maybe even /Amandil/.
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree with that, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover, Isildur’s the topic.
[Puma] Tar-palantir prohesized that when the white tree was no more.the line of kings would end
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Nice to see you as always. 😉
[Ringlordsander] I don’t think Isildur made an error with the Ring. I don’t think you can call it an error while everyone would do the same in that position.
[Puma] Isildur saved the white doing so.symbolically the kingship passed to the line of amandil
[Darkover] Thank you, you too! 🙂
[stargategeek] hi can I have that link to HOF again. was using different irc
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, so is the white tree thing more important than the seven ships thing? Without the ships you have no white tree, and Elendil organised the boats….
[Demosthenes] trees don’t usually float very well.
[sunshower] you are in HOF, stargategeek
[Darkover] And maybe also it was a symbol that life could go on
[Puma] yes….it was joint
[Puma] but ships with no tree……means no kingship
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, there would have been no Gondor, etc.
[Puma] and there were 9 ships
[miriel] The tree is more important IMO
[Puma] look at the importance aragorn placed on the tree
[Darkover] Sounds like both tree and ships were very important
[Puma] no king
[miriel] they could have used any boat to get from Numenor, but not any tree
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so too.
[Rivornel] And Gandalf (importance thing)
[stargategeek] whats tonights topic?
[Puma] isildur rescued a fruit of the white tree at great risk
[Lasak] I agree with miriel there
[miriel] isildur
[stargategeek] hi sunshower
[Darkover] Isildur, Stargategeek
[Demosthenes] Isildur seems to have gone to rescue the tree from Armenelos of his own accord?
[stargategeek] hi darkover
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, Isildur wouldn’t have gotten very far with his fruit.
[Puma] without the tree…..the exiled numenoreans could have come to middle earth…….but there could be no rightful king
[Darkover] would there really not have been a king, without the symbolism of the tree?
[Puma] Elendil had nothing to do with the rescue of the fruit
[Ringlordsander] I agree with ChristineGolden here. I don’t think Isildur would’ve gotten far without his father…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i dunno. what makes a king?
[miriel] I think it is interesting that we have isildur doing it, only to later fail with the ring
[Lasak] The kings always find a reason to make them above the people
[Puma] there might have been a ruler with no tree.but no king
[Teowang] u seriously are stargategreek?
[Darkover] I understand the importance of symbolism to M-E societies, but there is symbol, and there is substance
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, the tree was merely one symbol of the kingship.
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, in practical terms, being able to fight off enemies and lop their heads off is pretty important
[Puma] even aragorn true king
[miriel] do you think tolkien might have wanted to show that someone could both be wise/good/whatever and yet fail when tested by a supreme power?
[Darkover] More so than trees, although Tolkien might not agree 😉
[Darkover] That is a possibility, Miriel
[Puma] also.with out the tree.the line of kings end…does that mean if they arrived in middle earth…they would not have survived
[Demosthenes] So in what ways does Isildur preserving the white tree (twice, not once!) shape the third age?
[Darkover] Although to be fair to Isildur, did he truly understand the nature of the One Ring when he took it?
[Demosthenes] Also, is it that act that earns the hatred of Sauron?
[Puma] lets hold off on the ring a bit please
[ChristineGolden] I think he did, as far as man could understand the evil of Sauron, Darkover
[miriel] well, we have a king that has something to base his claim of power on… would not have happened otherwise?
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, as Puma observed, symbolism is important. So is tradition. And the White Tree was a thing of beauty
[Demosthenes] All good points.
[Goldberry] Crazy that isildur could walk in there any take the fruit without anyone stopping him
[Darkover] Preserving it was undoubtedly a good action on Isildur’s part, and may have made him seem more heroic
[Demosthenes] He was injured in the process, iirc?
[Puma] when the tree sprouted in the house of amandil…isildur who had been gravely wounded.awoke for the 1st time….there is symbolism in that
[ChristineGolden] The King of Gondor had many symbols. Wasn’t there one found in Orthanc after the fall of Saruman?
[Darkover] He didn’t exactly “walk in,” as I recall, Goldberry. I think he sneaked in
[miriel] the tree is also a way of showing that the line is the right one, remember it withers when the kings disappear
[Demosthenes] Did that signify that Isildur was the true king, not elendil?
[Goldberry] Pretty good at sneaking
[Darkover] That too, Miriel. Symbolism strikes again
[Puma] and isildur was wounded gravely when taking the fruit
[Puma] isildur also had great forsight
[Goldberry] He nearly died didn’t he?
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: yes i believe so.
[Puma] it did fail him once though
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah. minas ithil. stupid place to put a city.
[Goldberry] Then he recovered when the tree started growing
[Demosthenes] 🙂
[miriel] I think he was a very devoted biologist (jk jk)
[Darkover] Most of the heroes in Tolkien’s writings had great foresight. I always wondered if that is meant to be a mystical thing, or if the heroes were just people who were smarter and thus could make predictions better than most.
[Puma] as i said earlier.when the young tree sprouted.isildur awakened
[Puma] probably both Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: better intuition?
[Darkover] Maybe a sign that Isildur–or his line–were connected with the Tree?
[miriel] very hard to say, Darkover
[Darkover] That’s just it, Demosthenes–intuition, or intelligence? As Miriel says, hard to say. Probably some of both.
[Puma] but isildur….had the men of the white mtns take an oath at the stone of erech…he had the forsight to know the war with sauron would go on a long time…of course he brought that about in part himself
[Demosthenes] Probably both. Intuition, empathy, insight … all these things make people better leaders. And Isildur seems to have been albe to lead people — he essentially sets up Arnor AND Gondor as realms.
[Demosthenes] And everyone went along with his ideas.
[Demosthenes] Isildur was also instrumental in setting up the Arnor/Gondor system, which greatly shaped the government of the Third Age.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] So he must have been quite a leader. A pity that at the end, he was remembered mostly for failing to destroy the One Ring, and getting killed by orcs int he process.
[miriel] I never really understood the benefits of s
[Goldberry] It is a pity
[Puma] well….i have reasons that the taking of the ring….was a bit more complex than people attribute to it
[miriel] *splitting up the kingdom
[Darkover] Wasn’t Isildur the eldest son? or were he and Anarion twins, and Isildur the elder? Didn’t Tolkien dither over that issue for a time?
[Lasak] that truly is a pity
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say that politically he established the foundations of a golden age. a bit like augustus.
[Demosthenes] with Rome.
[Goldberry] Easier to rule a smaller place than a bigger
[thefoolishtook] im reading what all you guys say, and i say parallels with gollum/smeagol. the whole they should of renounced the ring but they didnt know better. ultimately their fate was to help middle earth etc?
[Puma] the elves had kept the rings a secret….the numenoreans knew nothing of the rings…numenor was perhaps destryed because they did not know fo the the elves had some fault in the fall of numenor
[Darkover] yes, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] see* parallels
[Puma] so do you blame isildur for not trusting the elves advice with the ring
[miriel] yes. He did have the potential to destroy it
[Puma] isildur was in exile for lack of knowledge about the ring
[miriel] he had done many great deeds in the past
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, I’m not sure I agree that Isildur and Gollum were exactly analogous. Isildur cut it directly from the Dark Lord’s hand, after the latter just killed his father, and Gollum murdered his BF and kinsman. Not quite the same
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Diocletian. Diocletian started the process of splitting the Roman empire into east and west.
[Goldberry] Maybe isildur did know better he just wasn’t able to lett it go
[Puma] isildur did know his mistake and repented to elendur
[Puma] so isildur in that respect can be compared to boromir
[Rivornel] Well, I think the ring also played a big role. Cause when Frodo went to toss it into Mt. Doom he couldn’t do it either
[thefoolishtook] yeah darkover, i get you in that they arent like for like, but still, their whole relationship with the ring being love hate rings a bell, just an observation anyways! 🙂
[Darkover] Well, Puma, elves usually give good advice, when they give it at all. But did Isildur understand at the time what the nature of the Ring was? That in order to use it, one had to become like Sauron? Did he understand the way It was tempting him? I’m not sure about any of that.
[miriel] good point Rivornel
[Darkover] Agreed, thefoolishtook, I think the Ring did that to almost everyone who came into contact with it.
[Puma] go not to the elvesd for advice cause they say both no and yes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that would depend on how much information Celebrimbor passed on to his compatriots.
[Darkover] True, Demosthenes
[Goldberry] Puma:yes isildur reminds me of Boromir in some ways
[Demosthenes] And then how much Gil-galad passed on to … well … the Numenoreans of the 2nd age for starters
[miriel] which leads to another question: should the elves have *forced* him to throw it into mount doom?
[Demosthenes] And then later to Elendil.
[Darkover] But if we believe Elrond’s account of events, Puma, for a change, his advice was pretty explicit–destroy It
[Rivornel] the ring in general is evil, and i think it’ll turn anybody who has good intentions to bad and selfish intentions
[Puma] the numenoreans knew nothing of the ring.till gil-galad told elendil
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was a very proud man, Darkover, and would have believed he could control it.
[miriel] possible, ChristineGolden
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i could see that too.
[thefoolishtook] like denethor thought boromir could
[Darkover] No, Miriel, I think the Elves would have had to murder Isildur to take the Ring from him, and clearly they couldn’t persuade him to do so, and nothing good would have come from that.
[Puma] there is also some evidence isildur was an overbearing older brother to anarion
[Darkover] Chris, I agree. I suspect even if Isildur had known all the facts, he would have kept the Ring. Just not sure how much guilt was his, if he didn’t have all the facts.
[Demosthenes] No-one would have tried to sneak the white tree out of armenelos without having a surfeit of self-confidence.
[miriel] so in the end, as soon as he laid hands on the ring, it really could not end any other way than in disaster
[Anameleth] I kinda think the elves should have forced him to destroy the ring
[Darkover] Really, Puma? I disagree. Isildur and Anarion seem to have gotten along astonishingly well, to the point that they were co-rulers.
[Lasak] But how should they force him?
[Darkover] I heartily agree, Demosthenes
[Puma] he felt at the time as any1 would.the elves lied to us about this ring….fall of numenor is in part the elves fault….and in his pride thought ring was better off with a numenorean
[thefoolishtook] elrond could of literally pushed him into mt doom?
[Anameleth] If they knew its power and what it could do, why didn’t they get rid of it?
[miriel] indeed, dems
[ChristineGolden] He may not have known the depths of its evil, Darkover, but he knew its nature.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think Meneldil was happy to see the back of Isildur when he left. Possibly because he felt he was being shaded.
[Puma] rulers in separate cities
[Lasak] i see that, but should they kill isildur?
[Darkover] More like disaster postponed, Miriel. Isildur got murdered shortly after, which was bad for him, but the Ring was lost for ages.
[Demosthenes] I’m sure that is in UT.
[miriel] true, Darkover
[Puma] and why was meneldil so happy he left gondor and would long be gone
[Darkover] Yeah, Demosthenes, that was strongly implied, I agree
[Demosthenes] Another indication of big egos?
[Darkover] Lasak, no, they should not have killed Isildur. It would have been murder, regardless of their motives.
[thefoolishtook] lesser of two evils Darkover?
[Puma] taking the ring by murder…..that results in a gollum
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Darkover] Yes, thefoolishtook
[miriel] we also rarely find people in charge who do not have some kind of want to be leaders
[Demosthenes] I am kinda surprised there was not more squabbling over the ring after sauron was brought down. But maybe everyone was too exhausted by war.
[Demosthenes] A kind of pyrric victory.
[Darkover] Or maybe it disappeared too fast
[Demosthenes] maybe?
[Puma] no one was there…..but gil-galad.elendil.isildur elrond and cirdan
[Demosthenes] “i would have this as weregild…” etc etc
[Rivornel] Isildor died either way though, they could have prevented the whole war of the ring if they had killed him..?
[Lasak] we know saruman looked after it
[Puma] so they did not know of the ring
[miriel] do you think the ring had part in this, Demosthenes?
[Puma] and the only person isildur told was elendur
[ChristineGolden] After Sauron was brought down, there was still a lot to do. The Orcs, for example, didn’t just wave and say, “see ya around” and walk off the battlefield.
[thefoolishtook] concerning fighting over the ring after the defeat of sauron, do you think its because the elves knew its true nature, and wouldnt of wanted it anyway?
[Darkover] Well, Isildur’s death resulted in It being lost. And his death seemed like a tragedy, but wasn’t the worst thing that could have happened. Rather like the death of Boromir centuries later.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Puma] exactly darkover
[Darkover] Maybe, thefoolishtook. I’m pretty sure that was Elrond’s attitude.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: that’s another possibility. and maybe they felt, mistakenly, that it wouldn;t be that bad?
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] and only reconsidered later.
[samsbestfriend] ChristineGolden: they kinda did in LOTR
[miriel] it would have suited it to not have a strong person yielding it, not to mention many of them being aware of it. It slipped through the net of greedy hands and into the river, laying dormant while sauron regained strenght — would not have happened if a lot of people were wanting to have it
[ChristineGolden] I think Elrond’s attitude was “let sleeping dogs lie.”
[Rivornel] But Isildur’s death delayed the whole process because the ring was lost. But then I guess it allowed the “good” guys to have a chance and not be overwhelmed
[thefoolishtook] if the elves considered it lost for all of time, they might of seen the ring as destroyed anyway. lost/destroyed = same thing?
[Demosthenes] hullo Isildursbane19. we’re just talking about you.
[Anameleth] Did Elrond realize the danger of the ring though?
[ChristineGolden] Only in the movies, samsbestfriend
[Puma] back to the tree 1 second….who 1st planted a fruit up above minas tirith.anotther act of forsight….most likely isildur.since he is most connected to the tree
[Darkover] Yeah, samsbestfriend, but that was because the movie had to end. In the book-verse, King Elessar and his men had to spend years killing off various bands of orcs, even after the Ring War
[ChristineGolden] But it does contradict Aragorn’s later words about the new owner of the ring.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, what does?
[Demosthenes] puma: returning to your point about whether the Numenoreans had received Full Disclosure. Well, Isildur did seem to take it as a memorial … not as a “wooo this will make me all-powerful!” thing.
[ChristineGolden] That Sauron would expect there to be confusion and a power struggle within the allies over who should wield the ring.
[miriel] I think it suited the ring best to lay dormant out of reach for the good guys
[Darkover] Right. “weregild”
[Puma] yes Demz
[samsbestfriend] i nwas meaning at the end of the 3rd age. sorry for the confusion
[Demosthenes] Maybe the elves didn’t tell everything. Maybe Gil-galad and co /didn’t know themselves/.
[Anameleth] True
[Puma] i think they did know
[Rivornel] Gotta go, see ya’ll soon
[Darkover] Sauron probably couldn’t conceive of anything else. That was the way his mind worked. He assumed no one would willingly pass up power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe that knowledge died with Celebrimbor?
[Goldberry] Bye
[miriel] cya Rivornel
[ChristineGolden] Ok, who do we know was aware that Isildur had the ring?
[samsbestfriend] I’d imagine orcs would always be an irritant, but no longer a threat
[miriel] elrond
[Goldberry] His sons?
[Puma] Celebrimbor would ahve passed on enough infor when he passed on the 3
[Darkover] did the Elves tell everything? Probably not. Did they know themselves? Hard to tell. Did Elves, by this time, like to get involved in the events of M-E? Not very often, which is something else to bear in mind.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Elrond, Cirdan, Elendur and Meneldil.
[Goldberry] Isildurs son
[Demosthenes] maybe Isildur’s other sons too.
[Puma] it seems not
[Puma] just elendur
[ChristineGolden] and Sauron.
[Demosthenes] It’s ambiguous anyhow.
[Darkover] Elrond. Probably his twins. Isildur, of course, and his oldest son, at least. Maybe the others, too, except for the youngest.
[Puma] and most likely not meneldil.which is why he left a written record
[Demosthenes] lol and Sauron the I’m doing a Cthulhu.
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[miriel] Darkover: they just fought in the last alliance. If that is not “being involved” then what is? 😛
[Demosthenes] but the written record would have gone to Meneldil. It was there to instruct the Kings of Gondor.
[Puma] the rings were never a thing of common knowledge
[Darkover] Okay, maybe that was too harsh of me, Miriel. I was thinking more of their behavior during the Ring War, than the Last Alliance, but you have a point.
[Demosthenes] so he would have known sooner or later.
[Puma] yes Demz…….but as gandalf had said.seems to be rearely if ever read
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Darkover has a point.
[ChristineGolden] After the fall of Sauron, didn’t the elves return to their own kingdoms and cares?
[Demosthenes] Yeah that’s true. The elves were very hands-off.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[miriel] there must be so much material to read, who would find that one little piece of paper about a heirloom that was lost?
[Demosthenes] “not our fault!”
[Puma] hands off only after sauron thrown down
[Darkover] It took even Gandalf a while, and he was looking for that reference
[ChristineGolden] So, while Isildur’s roaming around ME with the ring, the elves are back in Rivendell, etc.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was 3K years later though.
[Darkover] What’s 3K among Elves, Demosthenes? 😉
[Puma] lol
[miriel] that is true, there is a grain (quite a big one) of truth in what Darkover said
[Demosthenes] about from now till lunchtime?
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes. You folks are witty tonight.
[ChristineGolden] The elves were hands-off during Sauron’s reign of terror, too, Puma. They locked themselves inside their kingdoms.
[Puma] jrr wrote than in the area of the rings of lothlorien and rivendell….1000 yrs seemed like 10
[Puma] so time did pass.just slowly
[Demosthenes] To some extent they had no choice there Chrstine. They needed Numenor’s help.
[miriel] now, what I do find interesting: if Elrond knew so much about this ring (he was there), why did not gandalf seek the answers from him?
[Anameleth] Hmm… I’ve never even thought about that..
[Puma] i am sure gandalf did get answers from gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I know, Demosthenes, I was just responding to Puma’s remark. 😉
[Demosthenes] 🙂
[Puma] but no1 had handled the one to know its identifying marks other than isildur
[Darkover] Hmm, good question, Miriel. Do you think Elrond would have felt called upon to report any such questions/concerns to Saruman, who technically what still on the Council–maybe its head, I don’t recall, and Gandalf didn’t want that?
[miriel] he distrusted saruman, but he seems to trust elrond pretty much (brought the ring to rivendell etc)
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf was trying to find out how to identify the ring; I doubt Elrond could have helped him.
[miriel] that could be it, perhaps, Darkover
[Puma] no 1 but isildur knew what the rings marks were
[Lasak] But that was after he knew of sarumans betrayal
[Puma] elrond could not have known that
[ChristineGolden] Elrond didn’t know about the inscription, for example, or how to make it readable.
[thefoolishtook] rookie question, but im guessing gandalf and the istari where about during the first age?
[Puma] exactly
[Puma] no
[miriel] ChristineGolden: but would it not be more likely that elrond, who had seen it, would know, rather than that there would be a note from ages past still saved about this matter?
[Darkover] No, the foolishtook, they weren’t
[Puma] the istari came mostly about 1000 3rd age
[ChristineGolden] No, the istari arrived at the beginning of the 3rd age.
[Demosthenes] I have another question. If the Ring has an inevitably corruptive power (which everyone agrees on), was what Isildur and Elrond and Cirdan chose to do the best (least worst?) possible choice?
[Puma] not till sauron was arising again
[thefoolishtook] ok, thanks darkover, puma, and chris!
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, miriel, unless it was still hot from Sauron’s hand when he saw it.
[Puma] only isildur saw and took the ring
[miriel] so elrond never saw it?
[Puma] elrond and cirdan would not jhave known
[Darkover] Isildur should have thrown the Ring into Mt. Doom when he had the chance, but since we don’t know how much he knew for a fact about It, I don’t think we can judge him *too* much. Hindsight and all that.
[miriel] nessyness, welcome to the madNess
[Puma] they saw a gold ring
[ChristineGolden] Could you be more specific, Demosthenes, about what choice?
[Nessy] Ha, 5
[Darkover] Elrond couldn’t have destroyed It at the time without murdering Isildur to do it.
[Goldberry] They asked him to destroy it puma
[Nessy] Thanks….random 5
[Demosthenes] Darkover: but no-one could have done that it seems. it seems to be physically beyond anyone.
[Puma] ty Darkover…..i have been trying to make that point
[ChristineGolden] Then we would have had a much shorter saga, Darkover. 😉
[Darkover] Yes indeed, Chris!
[miriel] had elrond perhaps told gandalf all he knew already?
[miriel] at an earlier point
[thefoolishtook] and Peter JAckson would be much less well off!
[Puma] its all just a bit more complex than a surface story….glad we are discussing it
[Darkover] Sadly true, Demosthenes
[miriel] oh, but now I remember, he knew that saruman had gotten the info somewhere… that explains it
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] Well, it’s speculation about fiction, miriel, but it’s reasonable to assume that the White Council discussed the ring.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Well, Isildur took the ring. this had all sorts of outcomes. Barring destroying the ring, which seems to require an impossible act of will, was he the best possible guardian in the circumstances?
[ChristineGolden] what a terrible thought, thefoolishtook.
[Darkover] didn’t Saruman keep insisting that the One Ring went into the sea long ago, so they should all just forget about it?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he did.
[Puma] for the wearers of the 3 rings.the one has an especial power
[Puma] cirdan and elrond had 2 of the 3
[thefoolishtook] yeah darover, but wasnt that so he could search for it without anyone taking too much notice
[ElenGalad] How long a time period did Isildur have the ring?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, gotcha, Demosthenes. God, no, he was a terrible keeper of the ring.
[Demosthenes] ElenGalad: a year or so?
[miriel] since he died: yes. give the ring to elrond and he would have been corrupted (eventually) =] great loss
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[ElenGalad] Thanks
[Goldberry] And gandalf had the third ring
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: so what would have been a better option (apart from destroying it)?
[Puma] isildur had the ring a bit over 2 yrs
[Darkover] Sure, thefoolishtook, but I brought that up as a way of saying that the Council did discuss the One Ring, but Saruman kind of stonewalled any further discussion
[Puma] no goldberry
[Darkover] night, Anameleth
[Puma] galadriel had the 3rd ring
[Puma] cirdan gave his to gandlaf 1000 yrs later
[thefoolishtook] ahh okay, i follow you now darkover
[Goldberry] Oops!
[Demosthenes] Isildur said to Elendur at the Gladden Fields that it was beyond his power and should go to the keppers of the three. Is that really any better?
[ChristineGolden] There was only one ‘good’ option, Demosthenes, and that was to destroy it. But half of ME would have been a better guardian than Isildur.
[Demosthenes] But you can’t destroy it.
[Darkover] I think the problem was that there really was no one who could be an adequate “guardian” for the One Ring, Dmeosthenes
[Puma] well…..they would not have taken the one….but perhaps it was not so easy to destroy.who could they send
[Demosthenes] Just leave it in the dirt? is that possible either?
[Puma] then sauron would still arise
[thefoolishtook] How about galadriel, do you think in the second age she would of taken it as opposed to letting frodo go in the third?
[miriel] I disagree: anyone was a bad keeper. It was best that it was not kept. Thus, isildur was perfect
[Lasak] wasn’t that what happened in a way
[Darkover] Is that truly fair, Chris? After all, Isildur doesn’t seem to have tried to use It much, even at the last.
[Demosthenes] miriel: logic would seem to indicate that?
[ChristineGolden] If the ring had been ‘given’ to someone else, perhaps that person would have had the humility to destroy it.
[Puma] isildur never used it
[Darkover] Leaving It in the dirt would have been a horrible idea, Demosthenes
[Darkover] It wouldn’t have stayed in the dirt
[Demosthenes] So what Isildur did was better than nothing?
[miriel] doubt that, the only one to give away the ring was bilbo. Isildur would not have done that
[ChristineGolden] Isildur suffered from Tolkien’s #1 sin, Darkover: pride.
[Puma] Darkover…..i am convinced now you get this topic well
[Darkover] I think being able to give the Ring to someone else would have been almost as difficult as destroying It.
[Lasak] I think what isildur did was better
[Lasak] he moved the ring to place where it wouldn’t be found for ages
[Demosthenes] Darkover: this seems likely too.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, I think so. Isildur was not a good guardian for the Ring, but who would have been? No one.
[miriel] darkover. like I said, agreed 😉
[Darkover] Not intentionally, Lasak
[Lasak] no
[Lasak] but he did
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] true Lasak
[ChristineGolden] Isildur lost the ring in a river, Lasak; it wasn’t deliberate.
[thefoolishtook] but all hiding the ring for 100’s of years did was allowed sauron to rebuild
[thefoolishtook] 1000’s of years*
[Darkover] I mean, if we are discussing “what ifs,” an orc might have taken the Ring from Isildur when he was killed. Just pure good luck/Providence that didn’t happen.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: true. but it allowed prosperity in the meantime? does that outweigh the negatives?
[Darkover] It also allowed the good guys to rest up, so to speak.
[Puma] now in the great music….eru was said to make things anew that were unforseen….had hobbits evolved on purpose by they could handle the ring better than others?
[thefoolishtook] hmmm, so it allowed the free peoples to rebuild well enough to defeat sauron entirely demosthenes?
[miriel] btw, very interesting: hobbits seem to resist the ring (frodo and bilbo ) but gollum fell to its lure immediately
[Demosthenes] That too, Darkover. Like IU said earlier. the last alliance seems to have been a pyrric victory.
[Darkover] An intriguing thought, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Did it really allow prosperity in the meantime, Demosthenes? By the LotR, the West was in rapid decline.
[Puma] ty Darkover
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: not many empires last a thousand years. let alone three thousand.
[miriel] and according to gandalf, gollum was a hobbit… more or less
[miriel] so puma: I disagree
[Demosthenes] By human standards, Gondor in particular can claim an extraordinary longevity.
[Puma] even facing death.isildur knew saving the shards of anrsil was of great import….anotheer act of great forsight
[Demosthenes] And a great deal of that is because of Isildur.
[Lasak] I’m leaving now
[Demosthenes] seeya lasak!
[Puma] narsil
[ChristineGolden] I’m not talking about empire, Demosthenes, just prosperity, trade, communications, etc.
[Lasak] seeya 🙂
[Darkover] Yeah, Miriel, but I think Gollum was kind of a nasty type, anyway. I know he was being influenced by the Ring when he first saw It, but it didn’t take much for him to murder poor Smeagol, who was his best bud and relative. Contrast that with Bilbo sparing the life of Gollum, someone he didn’t know, who had been trying to harm him.
[miriel] now, wether Bilbo and frodo were “evolved on purpose” is another matter
[thefoolishtook] elves managed to maintain a standard but with the loss of arnor and the northern kingdoms?
[Demosthenes] puma: he should have given them to elendur.
[Darkover] bye, Lasak
[Puma] why Demz
[miriel] indeed Darkover, but he was a hobbit, so if the “hobbits resist the ring” was true, it should not have happened
[Isildursbane19] If I remember correctly, Puma, when the ainur and eru witnessed the music with the discord, they basically saw Arda in its entirety, including its creation, life and destruction, so yes, I would think, he did create them knowingly, or maybe not the race as a whole, but Bilbo and Frodo and Sam for sure
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: yes Arnor decayed more quickly. Possibly in part because it was the kingdom of Isildur’s direct heirs. And Sauron had especial malice toward them.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, Gollum was already corrupted before he took the ring.
[Demosthenes] puma: well, elendur might have survived then.
[Puma] no.the vision of the future was not complete
[Darkover] But Gollum’s resistance took a different form, Miriel, but it was no less resistance. He survived for centuries with the Ring eating at him, but he did not turn into a wraith, as a Man would have done
[Puma] i dont think so Demz
[miriel] very good point Darkover
[Darkover] and he endured torture and terror at the hands of Mordor, all because he loved and hated the Ring
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] excellent Darkover!!!!
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma (blushes)
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[thefoolishtook] haha its a very good point darkover
[Puma] also there was still a small window to a good gollum….he did have that 1 point of near reprentence
[Darkover] ty, thefoolishtook. You folks will turn my head.
[miriel] that one makes me so sad, puma
[Goldberry] Me too
[Puma] jrr said it was saddest moment in book
[miriel] I agree
[Puma] i do also
[Darkover] Yes. It was close, and it was sad, but nasty little cynic that I am, I doubt if Gollum’s repentance, even if carried out, would have lasted for long.
[miriel] 😛
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Puma] not with sam around
[Puma] but sam had also to emain himself
[Darkover] Well, I agree with Sam about Gollum.
[Puma] remain
[ChristineGolden] Or as Reagan said, Darkover, trust but verify. 😉
[thefoolishtook] call me harsh, but i’ve never really got the whole pity for gollum thing
[Darkover] Good advice, Chris
* Puma is smiling….this is a great discourse today
* miriel is yawning … great, but very late
[Puma] aww
[Goldberry] Thefoolishtook you are called harsh
[miriel] I think I shall go get some sleep
[Puma] you are a trooper miriel
[miriel] Night all!
[Puma] sweet dreams
[thefoolishtook] ah goldberry, im sorry!
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, the Ring had done a job on him. Of the two, Smeagol was the lucky one, even if he did get murdered.
[Goldberry] Night mirie
[Darkover] But as I said, I think he was a nasty type to begin with. His bad luck doesn’t change that.
[Darkover] Night, Miriel
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, I’m harsh, too, because I never felt sorry for Gollum. I’ve never understood the whole “Gollum fan club” thing.
[thefoolishtook] i know he’s had a horrid life and it wasnt his fault, but still, ive never really felt any pity for him
[Puma] yet as bad as gollum was.he kept his word to never let sauron get the ring
[Darkover] Lord, no. Feeling a bit of pity for him doesn’t mean I want to form a fan club for him.
[Demosthenes] One other thing I’d like to raise briefly. Twice Sauron exerts himself (via his chief minions) against Isildur’s descendents/legacies. Once to destroy Arnor, once to take and then corrupt Minas Ithil. (the corruption thing seems especially vindictive).
[ChristineGolden] Well, I doubt that was deliberate, Puma.
[thefoolishtook] hi five ChristineGolden!
[Goldberry] I agree dark over 🙂
[Darkover] Well, Puma, I suspect that wasn’t a matter of trying to keep his word, but because he didn’t want Sauron or anyone other than Gollum himself to have it
[Puma] it was the pity of bilbo and frodo for gollum that saved middle earth
[Darkover] I think “vindictive” is Sauron’s middle name, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] i get that Puma, but on an emotional level, ive never really felt sorry for the character
[Puma] i agree Darkover.sort of lefthanded keeping his word….but word kept none the less
* Vince ( has joined #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, but Isildur seems to have earned an especial ire.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] isildur took the ring
[Demosthenes] His chief foe and bugbear almost.
[Puma] isildur kept the kingship alive with the tree
[Demosthenes] isuldur saved the white tree. isildur established arnor and gondor.
[thefoolishtook] i’m talking to much about gollum anyway, not isildur, do we need to pull it back on topic?
[Darkover] Well, he did cut Sauron’s greatest toy/tool/weapon off Sauron’s hand, and knock out his power for a long time. Sauron’s not likely to forgive and forget.
[ChristineGolden] Well, first of all, he had to regain his strength, rebuild Barad-dur, etc., Demosthenes. By then, he probably thought that the heirs of Isildur had faded into inconsequence.
[Demosthenes] I guess key historical figures do attract powerful enemies.
[Demosthenes] In that context, it makes sense.
[Puma] it was the 1st sight of a surviving heir of isildur that drove sauron to attack too soon in the war of the ring
[Darkover] Plus, all the things you mentioned that Isildur did, would have displeased Sauron immensely
[Goldberry] Also cut off one of his fingers
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes. Sauron would fear the powerful, and Isildur was a very powerful enemy
[Puma] in the palantir i am referring
[ChristineGolden] Imo, Isildur is a tool Tolkien used, a means to explain how the ring was lost by Sauron.
[Demosthenes] And any surviving symbol of Isildur would be a slight against Sauron.
[Puma] after sauron saw an heir of isildur.he did not pay atention to all the things he should have
[Vince] how did the white tree of Gondor save the bloodline, Puma? You said Isuldor kept the line alive through the tree. I thought the tree was only a symbol of sorta.
[Darkover] As well as a big worry to the Dark Lord
[Vince] *sorts
[Puma] the tree was a symbol.but when no tree.there can be no king
[Demosthenes] oh, another thought, Luthien compelled Sauron’s surrender at Tol in Guaroth. And Isildur and Aragorn are descendents of Luthien.
[Puma] yes!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] So it goes back even further.
[Puma] yes!!!!!
[Darkover] And I suspect Sauron has a *very* long memory
[Demosthenes] that’s about 6000 years of being pwned.
[Puma] great point Demz!!!!!
[Demosthenes] No wonder he was so cranky.
[Puma] and gady Vince…..did not see you were here
[Goldberry] It’s past 1 am, I am going to have to leave you all 🙂
[Vince] Hello Puma. I didn’t wanna distract the discussion by introducing myself.
[Darkover] hi, Vince
[Demosthenes] Gnight goldberry!
[Puma] sweet dreams goldberry
[ChristineGolden] Whoa! Sleep well, Goldberry.
[Darkover] goodnight, Goldberry
[Goldberry] Cya
[Demosthenes] Hmmm. We seem to have come to halt. Any points we’ve missed?
[Darkover] Don’t believe so
[Puma] saurons hate from isildur could be examined after the palantir….sauron lost his concentration
[Darkover] Excellent discussion
[ChristineGolden] The tole Isildur played in regard to Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] role
[Demosthenes] Was Isildur an inspiration for Aragorn?
[Puma] yeah.we did a great job on this topic
[Darkover] There is that. That increased Aragorn’s claim to the throne
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, a 2-year old pried off a few keys on my laptop.
[Vince] not according to the movie
[Puma] oh my Chrsitine
[Darkover] The movie was entertaining, Chris, but not always canon
[Demosthenes] He did want to see the Argonath. So maybe Isildur was an inspiration.
[Darkover] Sorry, Vince, not Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s okay, Puma, the funeral is monday.
[Vince] in the movie, Isildur holds Aragorn back
[Puma] the movie got a lot wrong Vince
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was both an inspiration and a warning to Aragorn.
[ChristineGolden] 😉 Puma.
[Puma] thats why we read books Vince
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah that’s probably true. More often he says he is Elendil’s heir too.
[Puma] Exactly Christine
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[ChristineGolden] He showed Aragorn the heights to which Gondor could rise and how far a king could fall/be corrupted by power.
[Puma] Aragorn has to be elendils heir….since gondor had all ready excluded isildurs heir
[Demosthenes] puma: there s that
[Puma] and it seems in jrr once a law is made.its forever
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but it was Isildur who was not able to overcome the lure of the ring, Puma, and that had to weigh on Aragorn’s mind.
[Puma] agreed Chrsitine
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: which we kinda see in Bree.
[Puma] but in his travels aragorn had to see the will of sauron at work…so knew a good bit of saurons mind
[ChristineGolden] Psychologically speaking, you have to wonder if Isildur’s “example” didn’t buttress Aragorn’s ability to resist the ring: “No, I will be different….”
[Puma] which aragorn did use to turn the tide of war
[Puma] it did Christine
[Darkover] and Aragorn felt a degree of responsibility for the fate of the Ring because of his ancestor. He said something about how it was appropriate that “Isildur’s Heir should help repair Isildur’s fault,” as I recall.
[Puma] do you not think aragorn might have been afraid of that moment in bree
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think there’s something in that. he seems to have been very aware of his ancestors .. “isildur’s heir should repair isildur’s fault…”
[Demosthenes] oh. hah. gmta.
[Darkover] Afraid, no. but that was his moment of temptation, and he passed, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Yes, that’s what I meant, Demosthenes… and good point, Darkover.
[Darkover] So, have we covered everything?
[Demosthenes] i think so!
[Puma] would there have been a 3rd age without isildur….makes me wonder
[ChristineGolden] Probably not, but it’ll do. 😉
[Demosthenes] puma: it would have been very different.
[Puma] yeah.i think we did great today
[ChristineGolden] Sure, Puma, Tolkien would have just written a different version.
[Demosthenes] Next weekend we’ll be visiting Helm’s Deep btw.
[Puma] cool beans
[Puma] short chapter
[Demosthenes] yeah. i like short chapters.
[Darkover] Back to the book
[ChristineGolden] brb, somebody’s fooling around the fence. gotta get my gun and see what’s going on.
[Demosthenes] Back to the book!
[Puma] enjoyed this great today people
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone. Great discussion.
Session Close: Sun May 26 09:27:12 2013

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