Last weekend, the Hall of Fire crew examined the confrontation between Gandalf, Theoden and Grima (plus much more) as we discussed the Two towers chapter The King the Tale of the Golden Hall. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.
And remember, tomorrow (May 25 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing Isildur and examining to what extent he was the shaper of the Third Age.
Session Start: Sun May 19 07:16:27 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: The king of the golden hall | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok. We should probably start. People can catch up when they wander in.
[Demosthenes] “They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night. When at last they halted and dismounted, even Aragorn was stiff and weary. Gandalf only allowed them a few hours’ rest. ”
[Demosthenes] Gandalf sees a need for haste.
[Alatariel] So that tells us…
[Alatariel] Gandalf is kinda being mean
[Jenniearcheo] He knows sommat
[Jenniearcheo] about Saruman’s plans
[Raurenkili] we should start with: Baldor son of Brego built the Golden hall
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf is just being urgent
[timlotr] he seems to know what he is doing
[Demosthenes] jennie: and it seems that Grima knows something when they arrive at Edoras also.
[Myra] I think that gandalf is more worried about what is out there, i.e. black riders and saruman’s orcs.
[Alatariel] And saruman
[Raurenkili] Yes, Gandalf knew they couldn’t lose any time
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Theoden will have heard of it. Maybe your coming was not wholly unlooked-for. It is but two nights ago that Wormtongue came to us and said that by the will of Th?en no stranger should pass these gates.’
[PippinForTheWin] I think Gandalf never forgot how Sam and Frodo were in peril every second of their journey. There wasn’t any time to rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as he’s forbidden Eomer to attack the orc party, but advised Théoden to have them ride off to the west instead.
[Demosthenes] Is that because of Eomer’s report about the man the elf and the dwarf? Or is it because Grima knows something about Gandalf?
[Jenniearcheo] Ah, yes. That, too
[Alatariel] So…that tells us Grima has…comepletely taken over theodens mind
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Jenniearcheo] Eomer hasn’t been back to Edoras, has he?
[Demosthenes] jennie: it’s as bit of a chessmatch. and the board is rohan, it seems.
[timlotr] Wormtounge having complete control, yeah, makes sense, don’t think he has jennie
[Darkover] I thought Eomer was back by this time, but had been imprisoned.
[timlotr] been a while since I read the book
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. A bit more subtle than they had to make it on the film
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, he had, and was.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, okay
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] I know he’s there at the end, as Hama sends for hjim
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the guard(s) agreed with Theoden/Wormtongue’s policy?
[Darkover] For threatening death to Grima, as I recall.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t know how far he’d had to come
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Th?en will have heard of it.
[Jenniearcheo] The outer guards?
[Blairwhitaker] I love the books just coz of all the extra content up to the film
[timlotr] I don’t think the guards agreed
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the guards agreed with Wormtongue. That was PJ’s slant, IMO
[timlotr] but they had to follow or receive the same punishment as Eomer
[Demosthenes] But they followed his orders?
[PippinForTheWin] well dems they had to follow the king’s orders, yes?
[Darkover] Yes, because Theoden allowed Grima so much power, I think
[Jenniearcheo] They are probably farther from Meduseld in mind as well as in body
[Demosthenes] I wonder how far they might have gone with that.
[Jenniearcheo] Than Hama
[Demosthenes] pippin: history is littered with examples of people who have stopped following a king’s orders.
[PippinForTheWin] true, true…
[Darkover] I suspect they would have wanted to hear the order directly from Theoden, if Wormtongue ordered Eomer’s death. Which was next on the menu, I suspect.
[Demosthenes] To some extent Hama is an example of this?
[Jenniearcheo] They follow his orders, but there’s some doubt.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but those people usually ended up imprisoned or dead themselves, too.
[timlotr] they might’ve not killed Eomer even if it was ordered I’m guessing
[Jenniearcheo] Hama does use his own judgement RE: staff and Eomer
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s an interesting thought. do you think it would have come to that?
[Raurenkili] they follow him under pressure
[Jenniearcheo] I think you’re right, Darkover
[Darkover] I definitely think it would have come to that, Demosthenes, or else Eomer would suddenly have died in his cell, or trying to “escape” or something.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad we don’t have to find out
[timlotr] Wormtounge might’ve done the killing of Eomer himself even if they didn’t follow his order (if it ever came to that that is)
[PippinForTheWin] it might have, but that doesn’t mean that the guards would follow through with it
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: yes, i do agree theoden’s men feel pressured.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s even little things: “the courtesy of your hall is lessened of late”.
[Anameleth] I think the guards feared saruman somewhat also
[Darkover] Happily, it didn’t come to that, PippinForTheWin, although I believe that some of the guards, at least, would have followed such an order if they believed it came from the King himself.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, that was in direct response to Grima’s rudeness
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: Also Theodred’s death.
[PippinForTheWin] i think that at this point, Theoden’s guards feel threatened because they realize Grima’s power. Maybe they thought that there would be no chance for survival if they refused orders?
[Jenniearcheo] timlotr: Only if he could have got away with it in secret, I think
[Darkover] Theodred’s death, we find out later, was engineered by Grima and Saruman between them. The whole purpose of the battle in which he died was to kill the son of the King.
[timlotr] right, that’s how he operates I believe jennie
[Blairwhitaker] I’d surely have noticed on seeing the king something was wrong with him
[Anameleth] Grima didnt have any REAL power, only what was in a way, given, to him.
[Anameleth] was given
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that and there was an army on Rohan’s western border. So they might have felt a need to “stay true” because of that.
[Darkover] Sure, Blairwhitaker, but seeing the problem, and being able and willing to do something about it, are two different things.
[Jenniearcheo] Remember that Théoden was in deed and in fact an old man.
[PippinForTheWin] not physical power, but anameleth, but mental power… the power to convince
[timlotr] Grima was under the influence of Saruman
[timlotr] I believe
[Phil] is it possible that the battle where Theodred dies happen when Grima wants everyone on a wild goose chase
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: in a way, Grima’s power comes from Theoden’s trust in him. Which is interesting.
[Blairwhitaker] Very true. Not sure what I could have done lol
[Darkover] IMO, the “spell” that Grima wormtongue put on Theoden was not a literal spell, the way it was portrayed in the movie.
[Demosthenes] Trust is a big part of this chapter. Who is worthy of trust? And why?
[timlotr] lol so true
[Jenniearcheo] What does Grima call Gandalf?
[Anameleth] agreed, his mental hold on everyone was more powerful than physical
[Jenniearcheo] Lathspell: Ill-news
[Darkover] I think it was more a matter of Wormtongue constantly telling the King, “Eomer is a traitor, he is young and strong while you’re an old man, and he just wants the crown for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] spell means word or news
[timlotr] Gandalf the Grey Jennie
[timlotr] I think
[Jenniearcheo] Just as Godspell meant goodspell. Gospel. Good news
[Jenniearcheo] It was Grima’s ill counsel that depressed Théoden. Not a “spell”
[Demosthenes] is lathspell an archaic word? rohirric?
[Jenniearcheo] “spell” in this case, merely meaning words
[Darkover] I think this chapter also makes the point, as Gandalf does to the King, that the person you can trust is the person who tells you what you need to hear, even if it sounds unpleasant, or isn’t what you might want to hear.
[timlotr] his voice had a charm to it some would say
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Also Anglo SAxon, of course
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a bit like strider. looks foul and feels fair.
[Demosthenes] thinking back to strider and frodo’s words at bree.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes!
[Demosthenes] this is /very/ similar.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf goes into this at the end. Originally Grima was merely an informant. But after Gandalf got free of Saruman, he started really counseling Théoden into a pessimistic depression.
[PippinForTheWin] right, jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: that would become easier after the first(?) battle of the isen too.
[Demosthenes] when Theodred fell at the ford.
[Jenniearcheo] Which, of course, was as arranged
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf was giving Theoden bad news, true, but I think the one most responsible for the King’s depression was Wormtongue, who was making him think that any resistance was hopeless and useless.
[Jenniearcheo] Despair was the lathspell
* Anameleth nods
[Demosthenes] ‘It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Th?red your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal Of the Mark. In ?mer there is little trust. Few men would be left to guard your walls, if he had been allowed to rule.
[Jenniearcheo] lol That’s what I meant, Darkove
[Darkover] Right, Jennie. Wormtongue was trying to sell the King on complete capitulation to Orthanc.
[Jenniearcheo] After Gandalf got free, it pushed Grima into doing so
[Demosthenes] Did anyone notice that Grima’s counsel is essentially conservative?
[Demosthenes] “do nothing”
* timlotr agrees
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Keep the men at home to guard the house
[Jenniearcheo] Not go out and interfere with saruman
[Darkover] Doing nothing isn’t necessarily conservative, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] Depression an despair can literally make people look old an withered after so long. This is what I took from the look of him in the film. Just more exaggerated
[Demosthenes] Passive, then?
[Darkover] That is what I took from the book, Blairwhitatker. From the PJ film, I got the impression that Theoden was being literally possessed by Saruman, through sorcery.
[Demosthenes] hiya ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Passive, yes, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Hi, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] I believe Théoden likens it to being bent with the weight of snow. Metaphorically, Gandalf was the wind that blew the snow off
[ChristineGolden] Hi, sorry I’m late.
[Darkover] Oooh, well put, Jennie!
[PippinForTheWin] hey christine
[Alatariel] Hi christinegolden
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: They had to make it obvious, and very quick
[Darkover] True, jennie
[timlotr] need to get going for now peeps, I’ll join y’all next week 🙂
[Demosthenes] jennie: like a deciduous tree in winter
[Anameleth] I like than metaphor jennie
[Darkover] bye, timlotr
* Alatariel agrees with Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Do you remember how Gandalf cautions his companions to “speak no haughty word…”? Do you think he practises what he preaches? Also, does Aragorn come close to going against this?
[Jenniearcheo] With the sword, perhaps
[Demosthenes] yes, with the sword. that is an odd little episode.
[ChristineGolden] No and yes, Demosthenes. 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, all the fuss about the swords was useful in letting him keep the staff. Which was the only really useful weapon
[Demosthenes] Aragorn stood a while hesitating. ‘It is not my will,’ he said, ‘to put aside my sword or to deliver And?to the hand of any other man.’
[Demosthenes] ‘It is the will of Th?en,’ said H?.
[Darkover] Gandalf is more blunt than haughty, IMO, Demosthenes. He is just telling the King the truth, but he keeps his manners while doing so.
[PippinForTheWin] i think gandalf is an exception to his own words because he knows that doing so will free Theoden
[Darkover] Saruman is the haughty one, with his attitude that the King should acknowledge his authority before getting any “help” from Orthanc
[Demosthenes] Darkover: He does seem to let Grima implicate himself?
[PippinForTheWin] at the hands of anyone else, it wouldn’t turn out so well
[Matteo] he skirts the edge though
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Perhaps Gandalf understood that for Theoden to be truly free and start behaving like a King again, Theoden would have to figure it out for himself.
[Demosthenes] Possibly because Grima is so much in theoden’s trust that he has to let that trust be destroyed first.
[Jenniearcheo] Funny that there’s a real thunderstorm going on. It looked like Gandalf called it up.
[Darkover] Besides, no matter how pressing the need, it would not be advisable for Gandalf to just charge in and take over. It is the King’s Hall, not his, although Gandalf does give Grima a quick lesson in manners!
[Darkover] You summed it up well, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] jennie: maybe he did?
[PippinForTheWin] but gandalf wouldn’t get anything done with grima at theoden’s side
[Demosthenes] maybe it’s chance
[PippinForTheWin] so yes, dems, i think you’re right
[Demosthenes] He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
[Darkover] Right, Pippin, which is why Gandalf helped Theoden to understand what a worm Grima was.
[Darkover] I’m not sure anything happens by chance in Tolken’s world, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Did he call it up, or somehow know it was coming and use it?
[Anameleth] i agree with pippin, Gandalf had to get rid of grima in order to even confront theoden
[Demosthenes] ‘Now Th?en son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?’ said Gandalf. ‘Do you ask for help?’ He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he damped down the fire
[Demosthenes] And again that weather … metaphor.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, ‘chance’ seems to be more like fate in ME.
[Jenniearcheo] And light being hope
[Darkover] Or Providence, Chris, as I suspect Tolkien would call it.
[Demosthenes] A fool’s hope?
[Jenniearcheo] HOpe in the face of the despair long wrought by Grima
[Matteo] I always thought that Gandalf came back with a little more foresight than before.
[Darkover] Probably, Matteo, since he had been to the other side.
[Jenniearcheo] He’s certainly more sure of himself
[Demosthenes] In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: ‘Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, H?, has betrayed us!’ There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.
[Darkover] BTW, I find it significant that Gandalf specifically asked the King if Theoden wanted help.
[Demosthenes] Along the same lines, what does Gandalf do to Grima?
[Jenniearcheo] I wonder why Grima fell down?
[Jenniearcheo] I have no idea
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Yes, that’s a good observation.
[Blairwhitaker] I live how wizards seem to have thier own rules on magic an life. Almost like a different species to hobbits an men or elves
[Jenniearcheo] Hi miriel
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, though, about Gandalf being able to control the weather. If he could, why didn’t he stop the snow storm at the Redhorn Gate?
[Darkover] Not sure specifically why he fell, but I’m sure it was Gandalf’s doing.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[Matteo] perhaps because he is a coward at heart
[PippinForTheWin] Once Gandalf returns, isn’t he the most powerful of the Isatari? So he would be more sure of himself knowing that he could defeat the enemy behind this
[Darkover] Howdy, Miriel
[miri_HOF] hi all 🙂
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure that was ordinary weather, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Seb
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: didn’t want to draw attention there? Here, it’s not so important. Secrecy versus need.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Xanaseb. 🙂
[Phil] hi little m
[Xanaseb] hey hey.
[Darkover] Gandalf the White was more powerful than G. the Grey, Pippin, but that doesn’t mean his success was guaranteed.
[ChristineGolden] Sounds like
[PippinForTheWin] hi xanaseb
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i agree. Gandalf the white brings no guarantees of anything. just hope.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he simply knew the storm was coming and used it, the lightning flash, the ray through the clouds, etc
[ChristineGolden] hhmmm, sounds like a stretch to me. After all, the Company’s peril was deeper on the mountain than in Theoden’s hall.
[Demosthenes] he says as much to Theoden, too:
[Demosthenes] ‘Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears.
[Xanaseb] Darkover, Chris, PippinForTheWin 🙂
[miri_HOF] I think, that one of the reasons G the White was more powerful was that he could use a lot of power for a last chance. An all or nothing situation
[Blairwhitaker] I always thought he came bk as G the white as a metaphor for wisdom
[Phil] hi Xana
[Matteo] creating a momentary localized storm cloud is very different from actually affecting “world wide” weather phenomena like a snow storm
[Xanaseb] Phil 🙂
[miri_HOF] if he loses, he will leave, if he wins, he will leave
[Darkover] Also, as “the White,” I believe it symbolized that Gandalf was taking Saruman’s place
[miri_HOF] while gandalf the grey walked for many an age
[Jenniearcheo] If he could muck with the weather, you’d think he’d have used it other times
[PippinForTheWin] Jennie: Tolkien did want to stray away from ‘magic’, right? So maybe Tolkien tried his hardest to make it seem like magic without it actually being magic
[Demosthenes] Blairwhitaker: wisdom, hope and trust, i guess.
[Darkover] since Saruman had once been “the White.”
[Xanaseb] yeah, what with the many colours thing
[Anameleth] Thats so true pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] yes, PippinForTheWin. Agreed
[Matteo] also purity, purity of thought and purpose
[miri_HOF] indeed PippinForTheWin
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would have made it clearer if Gandalf was able to control the weather. After all, he made no secret about Sauron’s ability to do so.
[Jenniearcheo] And it wasn’t considered a good thing
[miri_HOF] well, saurons ability had a lot to o with orodruin
[Jenniearcheo] It’s interfering with nature, after all
[Darkover] That makes sense, Chris. I doubt if Gandalf actually could control weather, either. Someone suggested a moment ago that he knew the storm was coming, and made use of it, which seems more likely to me.
[miri_HOF] after all, having a volcano is rather convienient if you want to mess with clouds
[Xanaseb] I dunno Chris, it’s a question of how much Gandalf or *any* magical being for that matter, was willing to use their full power/potential
[Xanaseb] of course, Sauron wouldn’t resist using his power
[Xanaseb] but Gandalf..
[Xanaseb] most certainly so
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure Gandalf would hold back if it would save the world . . .
[Jenniearcheo] But mostly the power he seems to gain is knowledge.
[Jenniearcheo] (in his reincarnation)
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the Istari were given specific powers to fight Sauron.
[Anameleth] I think gandalf knew magic had a time and place in every situation, and used it acordingly
[Darkover] Of course, Xanaseb makes a telling point, too. “White” or not, Gandalf’s essential mission was still the same, to get out there and encourage/inspire people to resist Sauron as much as possible, not to do the whole job for them.
[Xanaseb] Anameleth, precisely
[Matteo] it seems that gandalf was never meant to save middle earth, just help those that would
[Demosthenes] Matteo: that’s right.
[Darkover] So, in other words, maybe he could control the weather, but that wasn’t his most important power, or maybe he thought it unwise to do so too often.
[Xanaseb] we shouldn’t percieve magic as a click of the fingers..
[ChristineGolden] Which would mean that Gandalf’s powers would be specific and limited, Darkover.
[PippinForTheWin] Exactly, Darkover. How would the world learn from its mistakes if these wizards just kept coming in to save them?
[Anameleth] agreed darkover, he could have, indeed, used his power to control the weather, simply to inspire
[Anameleth] if he cpuld even control the weather at all
[Darkover] Well, I think as “the Grey,” they were limited, Chris. Don’t know about the “White,” but he still wanted others to do all they could themselves, as well.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not real big on “could have” in books.
[PippinForTheWin] I think that Gandalf relaized that if he didn’t control the weather at that moment to help Theoden, they would lose the war
[Darkover] And a bit of theater never hurts!
[Matteo] its possble it was a most an illusion, like darkening a room and seeming larger
[Jenniearcheo] At the end, he has the hobbits go deal with Saruman themselves, while he goes off to have tea with Tom
[ChristineGolden] I think it was simply Tolkien using nature (again) to dramatize the moment.
[miri_HOF] on the other hand: if something would almost completely destroy a whole race, they won’t learn from it either way
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: Except they go outside and it’s raining
[PippinForTheWin] Maybe Tolkien was trying to symbolize how important nature is in vital situations
[PippinForTheWin] how it marks the difference between life and death
[Demosthenes] It’s too coincidental to be coincidence.
[Demosthenes] If that makes sense!
[Darkover] Actually, in the first Hobbit movie, Gandalf tells one of the dwarves that he can’t do anything about the rain. Don’t know if that was following canon, or just a good line for the movie.
[Blairwhitaker] Or just nature itself tuning into gandalf at his time of need
[Jenniearcheo] The coincidence is that a handy thunderstorm appears to freak Grima out at just the right moment
[Jenniearcheo] And a sunbeam to offer Théoden hope
[Anameleth] maybe he was trying to teach them a lesson darkover
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, maybe the Valar were eavesdropping. 😉
[Anameleth] about patience or something
[Jenniearcheo] The rain is just gravy
[Jenniearcheo] But less sticky
[Blairwhitaker] He may have been able to clear a small gap in the cloud to give hope
[Darkover] ha, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf could’ve just asked the Valar for help 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure much of this is escaping the attention of the Valar at this point
[ChristineGolden] Is there any other instance in LotR when Gandalf appears to control the weather?
[Darkover] I don’t believe so, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Not so far as I can remember
[PippinForTheWin] I don’t think so
[Blairwhitaker] Me either
[miri_HOF] nope, cannot recall
[ChristineGolden] Well, I’d think if he had that power, he would have used it more than once.
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: Ah, remember Manwe is the lord of the skies. I was thinking of that when I was reading this last night. But if it is the influence of the Valar, it is very, very subtle.
[Matteo] he does try to stop the snow storm befoe they go to moria, or is that just in the movie?
[PippinForTheWin] But Saruman caused the snowstorm, right?
[Anameleth] There are coincidences when he says he wont though
[ChristineGolden] That’s the movie, Pippin.
[Demosthenes] A tiny, tiny adjustment of the canvas that Gandalf has to work upon.
[Jenniearcheo] The mountain may have caused the snowstorm
[PippinForTheWin] I know, Christine. Haven’tread the books in ages
[Jenniearcheo] But we never really find out
[PippinForTheWin] *Haven’t read
[Demosthenes] There’s another one in Return of the King that I think might have been the Valar. We’ll come to that down the track.
[Jenniearcheo] It could have been Saruman (since he sent the birds and knew they were there) or Sauron
[ChristineGolden] Well, we do know that Gandalf was unable to stop that storm and it was far more important than a cloud and thunderclap over Edoras.
[miri_HOF] Demosthenes: manwe did some pretty nice work when Numenor was misbehaving, though
[Blairwhitaker] I suspect maybe he can control the weather but as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely, gandalf won’t use it when ever he wants only at times of dire need
[Matteo] I thought that the Valar had decided not to become involved directly in middle earth at this point. Hince the istari
[Demosthenes] miri: yes. yes he did. it’s an interesting thing to consider.
[Demosthenes] matteo: indeed. but is a nudge here and there direct involvement? Hmmmm.
[Anameleth] i agree Blair
[Jenniearcheo] Mind you, ChristineGolden, he is more powerful now than he was as Gandalf the Grey . . . Still, I don’t think he could control the weather, or he’d have used it later.
[ChristineGolden] Then he should have used it at the Redhorn Gate, Blairwhitaker, but he didn’t. So, I can only conclude he didn’t have such a power.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t call a nudge here and there direct involvement, but there is nothing wrong with them still taking an interest.
[Darkover] Sending the occasional eagle, that sort of thing.
[Demosthenes] Tulkas wrestling Sauron is gonna make a big dent in Gondor’s landscape. but, a bit of lightning and thunder to help out Gandy? No harm there.
[miri_HOF] lol darkover
[Jenniearcheo] And perhaps they sent him a heads-up that the storm was coming?
[ChristineGolden] I think we’re adding an awfully lot of speculation without much to support it.
[Jenniearcheo] As I said, I think his main power is awareness and knowledge
[Anameleth] I dontthink gandalf wants to control the whole situation, only when it is dire
[Darkover] Probably. But we do love to speculate and discuss here.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: well, another person might call it Providence!
[PippinForTheWin] I think the Valar tried hardest to not be involved unless Morgorth was involved, because nobody would be able to stop him
[Anameleth] that is why he hardly uses magic
[Darkover] If you use magic too much, people expect you to use it all the time, and to solve their problems for them, I think.
[Susanita] clockmaker valar
[Puma] the valar were very involved in lotr
[Anameleth] Exactly darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Hi puma
[Darkover] As I said before, Gandalf’s main job was to get people to resist Sauron, and to help themselves
[PippinForTheWin] And we really can’t forget how hard Tolkien tried to stay away from the idea of magic
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and I enjoy it, too. But it needs something to support the argument.
[Darkover] Thank you, Anameleth
[Puma] that is correct darkover.that was his job
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Matteo] yeah, less magic and more inherent power
[Demosthenes] He’s a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] That’s what we see in this chapter.
[Darkover] Good word, Demosthenes
[miri_HOF] “teach a man to fish”….
[Susanita] zackly miri
[miri_HOF] oh, very good choice of words dems
[Demosthenes] By “catalysing” Theoden, he motivates an entire people (the rohirrim).
[Xanaseb] yeah, I entirely agree with the catalyst thing
[Demosthenes] It’s a very strategic intervention.
[Puma] i am here when you are well on….but did you discuss how at the door to meduseld…gandalf and aragorn supported one another
[Demosthenes] Least intervention ofr the most effect.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was much more credible than the movie version, Demosthenes
[PippinForTheWin] Not necessarily a catalyst, Demosthenes. While catalysts simply speed up a process, Gandalf did more by helping the people. If Gandalf weren’t there, the War would’ve been lost. Without a catalyst, the process would still happen, just slower.
[Jenniearcheo] What the business with the swords vs staff. Yes
[Darkover] I suspect many of Rohan’s warriors agreed more with Eomer than Theoden. Do something about those orcs rampaging through their country.
[Blairwhitaker] Well 10 mins till midnight. Gona have to now
[Susanita] let’s hear it for strategic intervention
[Darkover] Goodnight, Blairwhitaker
[Demosthenes] Some processes cannot happen without a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] night blair!
[miri_HOF] indeed, they need the cathalyst to start
[Jenniearcheo] Distract Hama with the fuss and argument about the swords, appear to capitulate, and then call the staff proscription an over-the-top demand
[miri_HOF] but they can continue without it
[ChristineGolden] It’s like Pippin and Merry meeting Treebeard: without that meeting, the Ents would not have marched on Isengard, etc.
[Puma] yes jennie.but gandalf also proclaimed aragorns name
[Darkover] Well, Sauron wouldn’t have been defeated without Gandalf. I think we can all agree on that.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, ChristineGolden.
[Raurenkili] goodbye everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Oh. True, Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Raurenkili
[miri_HOF] agreed Darkover
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah, agree. So is Aragorn being all bluster? Or clever? You could argue both seemingly. Is it an unspoken thing? Or did they plan it?
[PippinForTheWin] bye raurenkili!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Raurenkili
[Susanita] see ya Raurenkili
[Puma] sorry i missed 1st part of this convo
[Matteo] bye rauren
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to say.
[Puma] good turnout today also
[ChristineGolden] I think book Aragorn is a proud man, esp of his lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, what specific incident or remarks of Aragorn are you referring to, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] Does Gandy give over Glamdring to distract from the sword?
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And what is it that prompts Hama to trust them?
[Raurenkili] bye Puma
[Darkover] Oh, the surrender of the weapons at the door. I doubt if Aragorn was blustering–that is not his style.
[Demosthenes] ‘The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age’ said H?. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. ‘Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.’
[Demosthenes] I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf gives over Glamdring to make Aragorn reluctantly give up Anduril
[Matteo] there ya go
[Darkover] Gandalf had come to Edoras before, and Hama probably remembered and trusted him.
[Xanaseb] ah the classic staff thing
[PippinForTheWin] I think Hama think that the situation can’t get worse, so what harm can a staff do
[Jenniearcheo] Bait and switch
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one explanation for sure!
[Puma] and did you also notice.this is one of six instances in lotr that not following orders was the right decision
[Jenniearcheo] Congrats for counting. lol
[Darkover] Actually, I hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned it, jennie, but I’m not sure Aragorn would have surrendered his sword, without Gandalf first surrendering Glamdring.
[ChristineGolden] What’s the quote, Demosthenes, about Strider? If you were an agent of the enemy, you would be more foul and seem more fair? Perhaps that’s how Hama thinks, too.
[Jenniearcheo] I assume Pippin at the Houses is one
[Darkover] You *counted* them, Puma? I’m impressed.
[Demosthenes] puma: I’m surprised there’s not seven seeing as seven pops up so very often in Tolkien.
[PippinForTheWin] Wow, Puma. That’s amazing!
[Puma] its an important theme in lotr
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[ChristineGolden] You noticed that, too, Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] seven for the win
[miri_HOF] what are the others, I wonder?
[PippinForTheWin] What are some examples of seven?
[miri_HOF] (off topic, but I’m curious)
[Matteo] we’ll have to do a recount
[Jenniearcheo] stars stones rings
[Puma] eomer letting aragorn gimli and legolas roam free
[Xanaseb] great fact Puma btw.
[PippinForTheWin] aren’t there seven palantir as well?
[Darkover] weren’t there seven fathers of the dwarves, too?
[miri_HOF] yep Darkover
[Puma] faramir not taking frodo and sam to minas tirith
[Demosthenes] seven stars. seven stones. seven names for gondolin. seven sons of feanor. seven sevens to seven the seven. it’s everywhere.
[Darkover] thanks, Miri
[miri_HOF] and durin woke alone
[ChristineGolden] and the dwarf kings had seven rings.
[Susanita] would you count Sam not staying away from the council?
[PippinForTheWin] But Sam wasn’t told not to come to the Council
[ChristineGolden] Seven is considered to be a sacred number.
[PippinForTheWin] So I don’t think so
[Puma] not really,there was no order.but good point
[Darkover] He wasn’t invited, Pippin, as Elrond pointedly observed.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that’s true.
[Puma] beregond not obeying his orders saved faramir
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin didn’t go away and die either
[Jenniearcheo] As instructed
[Xanaseb] that’s a nice one with Beregond
[miri_HOF] lol jennie
[Darkover] Probably the most important example of how disobeying orders can be the right thing to do–Beregond protecting Faramir
[PippinForTheWin] I was just thinking that, Jennie!!
[Puma] so not obeying orders is an important theme….people have to use their own judgement
[Jenniearcheo] Merry snuck along with “Dernhelm”
[miri_HOF] so many, really
[Puma] and eowyn had been ordered to stay at dunharrow
[Darkover] Eowyn herself disobeyed orders by becoming “Dernhelm,” didn’t she?
[ChristineGolden] So was Merry, Puma
[Susanita] yeah that one’s kinda big
[Puma] yes christine….
[Demosthenes] Hama does use his own judgement. I think that’s similar to what Eomer does with “the three hunters”, and reflective of how troubled the guards at the main gate of Edoras were.
[Darkover] I agree, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Pippin was ordered not to touch anything in Moria… that turned out well.
[Puma] jrr repeats this theme constantly for a reason
[PippinForTheWin] lol Christine
[Darkover] Well, disobeying orders is not always a good idea.
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[Matteo] oh no a bad one
[Puma] and there are instances of that
[Anameleth] True darkover
[Xanaseb] pretty fascinating, anyhow
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Gandalf’s resurrection wouldn’t have happened without Pippin
[Puma] gandalf was reincarnated.not resurrected
[ChristineGolden] As I recall, he was also ordered not to touch the Palantir.
[Xanaseb] well, the orcs might have found them anyway Jennie
[Xanaseb] even if Pippin hadn’t messed around 😉
[Susanita] uh oh not that again
[Xanaseb] Sus hey 🙂
[Susanita] llamaseb 🙂
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true, too. We were talking earlier how everyone disobeying orders in Rohan could have easily caused it to fall apart. Revolution. In-fighting. Eomer in particular treads a fine line there.
[Darkover] yeah, I agree. Let’s not start the ressurrection vs. reincarnation debate again.
[miri_HOF] so… pippin disobeying: bad short-term, great long term results
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t matter, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had to fall and die
[PippinForTheWin] Also, we can’t forget how Merry and Pippin were ordered to not be in the Fellowship… and yet they were and look how great that urned out
[Puma] pippin showed gandalf it was indeed a palantir.and saved gandalf looking himself
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. By threatening death to Grima *in Theoden’s Hall,* he was flying in the face of a long-standing law/tradition, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] And get reincarnated or whatever you wish to term it
[miri_HOF] they were allowed
[miri_HOF] but grudgingly
[Darkover] Eomer should have taken Grima outside. I wonder if Wormtongue deliberately provoked that incident, in order to get Eomer locked up?
[miri_HOF] (not accountable for spelling at 2:00)
[PippinForTheWin] got to go now bye!!!
[Puma] btw…i did research on our peredhil convo….but will save that for another time
[Susanita] bye pip
[Darkover] Bye, Pippin!
[ChristineGolden] Yes, there’s something in appendix A about that, Darkover, and King Helm.
[Demosthenes] Eomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[PippinForTheWin] i hope to be back next week
[Darkover] We hope you are too, Pippin
[Puma] the more here.the more we learn by discourse
[ChristineGolden] Helm says in Appendix A to some king who wants to marry his son to Helm’s daughter that violence is forbidden within the hall.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, Helm took a disrespectful lord outside, in order to refuse him and punch him out, getting the name “Hammerhand” in the process.
[Darkover] Right, thanks Puma, couldn’t recall the name
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[Puma] sweet dreams
[ChristineGolden] That’s him. I’ve told you before, I’m horrible with names.
[Susanita] g’night Anameleth
[Xanaseb] night night!
[Darkover] But that demostrates that the “law of the Hall” is a long-standing tradition, one that apparently even the King didn’t break.
[Darkover] Bye, Anameleth
[Puma] very true darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] No weapons in the hall? A bit like not running with scissors.
[ChristineGolden] So, yes, Gandalf was breaking the sanctuary of the Golden Hall.
[Darkover] Didn’t say there were no weapons in the Hall, Demosthenes, just that you weren’t supposed to *use* them in the Hall, or at least, that is the impression I’m left with.
[Puma] well….is the staff really a weapon….that is debateable
[Demosthenes] puma: if i start hitting you with a stick, you’d probably agree it was a weapon. 🙂
[Darkover] Hama’s being ordered to relieve our heroes of their weapons was apparently a new or recent order.
[Puma] i could find points either way
[Matteo] Yes, I’m pretty sure in case of attack there were armed guards and such, it was probably a “stranger danger” thing in this case
[Darkover] While you were ducking the blows, Puma?
[Susanita] a stapler could be a weapon
[Jenniearcheo] Because Grima knew they were coming. Gandalf in particular
[Susanita] or a pencil
[ChristineGolden] Oh, yes, Puma, large sticks are one of man’s oldest weapons.
[Puma] just swat them aside
[Susanita] which I used in first grade on a punk little boy
[Darkover] He probably had it coming, Susanita
[Susanita] he did
[Puma] but that is like hobits being great at throwing stones…not exactly a conventional weapon
[Susanita] little perv tried to look up my skirt
[Jenniearcheo] So Théoden goes outside and cheers up a bit, but not wholly.
[Jenniearcheo] It still takes a sword
[Darkover] Well, jennie, I doubt if things could be remedied in an instant
[Matteo] well they didnt have game boys so, throwing rocks was probably a skill learned very young
[Puma] well…..remember….theoden “fall” was his own fault
[ChristineGolden] Possibly a phallic symbol, Jennie?
[Darkover] Wormtongue’s been working on him for a long time. He will need a bit of encouragement to start being kingly again.
[Puma] so theoden had a lot to make up for.and he did
[Jenniearcheo] A power symbol, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] I think it was a symbol of power, as in the power to cut someone’s head off, Chris! 🙂
[Puma] theoden had gotten lazy with his job as king
[ChristineGolden] Theoden regaining his sword could be a metaphor for regaining his [sidelong glance at Barliman] “manhood.”
[Jenniearcheo] A symbol of power in his hands. Rather than the despair of being a powerless victim
[Darkover] and frightened, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: a bit like the sceptre (of annuminas)
[Puma] every1 was frightened
[Jenniearcheo] Note that everyone lays their own swords at his feet
[Demosthenes] Swords are used to dispense justice (ie: lopp people’s heads off)
[Darkover] I always thought sceptres were meant to symbolize the might of clubs, rather than phallic symbols, but then, I am not a Freudian.
* Susanita blinks
[Puma] and also notice….it was eomer who gave him guthwine
[Susanita] sorry, dem
[ChristineGolden] Me, either, Darkover, but swords are used throughout lit as phallic symbols – thus my comment.
[Puma] he did not get herugrim till later
[Darkover] true, Chris
[Demosthenes] why does Gandalf say that Saruman is “apt to overlook his bargains”?
[Darkover] And Puma, everyone was frightened, but not everyone was the King, in charge of protecting the land and its people, and an old man whose strength was fading, and having a counselor who kept pouring metaphorical poison in his ears.
[ChristineGolden] He’s a liar and a cheat.
[ChristineGolden] Saruman, that is.
[Demosthenes] Is he “gaming” Wormtongue? Trying to sow dissension?
[Puma] yes darkover.but theoden let it happen
[Darkover] I think that was Gandalf’s way of saying even if Saruman agreed to leave Theoden and Rohan alone, he couldn’t be counted on to keep his word.
[Susanita] what Darkover said
* Puma nods to darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Who was it that suggested allowing Grima to prove himself. or not?
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Demosthenes] Jennie: theoden i think. that weas clever. very clever.
[Puma] i believe that was gandalf Jennie
[Matteo] yes, it was very King Solomonish
[Demosthenes] ‘If this is bewitchment,’ said Th?en, ‘it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast. No, not one shall be left, not even Gr?. Gr? shall ride too. Go! You have yet time to clean the rust from your sword.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Mercy, lord!’ whined Wormtongue, grovelling on the ground. ‘Have pity on one worn out in your service. Send me not from your side! I at least will stand by you when all others have gone. Do not send your faithful Gr? away!’
[Darkover] Oh, I’m not saying theoden was totally blameless, Puma, just saying that his position was under more pressure than that of the ordinary citizen. And that Theoden wasn’t going to snap out of it immediately.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Theoden, supported by Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] ‘You have my pity,’ said Th?en. ‘And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with my men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith.’
[miri_HOF] that one is powerfully written
[Puma] i can agree with that darkover
[Darkover] None of which cheered Grima up at all. 🙂
[Demosthenes] Dilemma. Wormtongue cannot continuue to play both sides without endangering his skin.
[Jenniearcheo] Ultimately a coward
[Puma] yes.grima was caught in his own net
[DawnWolf] hello all (;
[Susanita] hi DW
[Darkover] And yet, even then, he was continuing to stall and to serve his true master, Saruman, by doing so, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Such people usually are, Jennie.
[Puma] gday Dawnwolf
[Darkover] Hi, DawnWolf
[miri_HOF] hi again DawnWolf
[DawnWolf] susi (;
[DawnWolf] hey miri (;
* Dwynaway is now known as Dwyna
[Demosthenes] Darkover: time is the enemy of Gandalf here. and the friend of Saruman. Wormtongue knows this: the longer he can keep Theoden from Westfold the more likely Saruman’s forces are to triumph.
[Demosthenes] So that’s why he plays a delaying game throughout.
* Puma nods
[Susanita] hey Dwyna
[Darkover] Hi, Dwyna
[Demosthenes] So Saruman can defeat Rohan piecemeal.
[Dwyna] hi Susanita 🙂
[ChristineGolden] But how long is the delay, really?
[Dwyna] hello Darkover
[Demosthenes] Sun Tzu would approve.
[Susanita] hehe dem
[Darkover] Not very long, maybe, but any delay is not good at this point, Chris
[Puma] a few hrs at that time….and every minute counted
[Jenniearcheo] Probably his last instruction
[Demosthenes] Since the first battle of the fords of the isen?
[Demosthenes] Which was several days ago.
[Puma] 5 days b4
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, I’d guess. Plus the warning RE: Gandalf
[Matteo] well it would take time to gather the horses and supplies and then they wouldnt travel that much at night so possibly a whole day or more
[Darkover] And Theodred’s death would have left the King feeling even more bereft and vulnerable
[ChristineGolden] I doubt that the exchange between Grima and Theoden lasted longer than an hour, and the Rohhirrim were already mustering. I think Grima failed on this one.
[Puma] he did fail
[Darkover] But not for lack of trying. What a traitor and a creep.
[Puma] and in the end.they were better off going to helms deep than fords
[ChristineGolden] I mean in causing any significant delay, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, he’s succeeded in allowing the army to build up
[Matteo] I’m thinking maybe at this point it was less keeping THeoden distracted and more delaying his return to sauruman in failure
[Demosthenes] Failure doesn’t mean he didn’t try. And i think Grima was always looking to create delay, or confusion.
[Puma] just 1000
[Demosthenes] It was something he’d been doing for a long while.
[Demosthenes] And ever Wormtongue’s whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.
[Puma] yet grima had been of useful service in the past
[Darkover] Very true. You can’t help someone who won’t listen
[Jenniearcheo] Was he solely motivated by greed (getting the pickings of Meduseld and getting Eowyn) or also scairt of Saruman and the Riders?
[Puma] saruman turned grima by promising him eowyn
[Darkover] It must have been quite distant, Puma. And was he serving Saruman secretly even then?
[ChristineGolden] Probably first by greed, Jennie, then later, also fear.
[Demosthenes] Yes, Puma. I think Gandalf ackowledges that. I suspect that’s why he lets him go, too?
[Jenniearcheo] I remember the riders scaring the pants off him at some point
[Darkover] I think that is in the appendices somewhere, Jennie
[Darkover] I could be wrong
[Darkover] Demosthenes or Puma would probably know
[Jenniearcheo] Definitely not. I haven’t read them
[Puma] what are you referring to darkover
[ChristineGolden] I only remember Grima at Meduseld, Isengard, and in the Shire.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, perhaps the fear of them convinced him of Saruman’s (and Sauron’s of course) ultimate power.
[Demosthenes] Oh, there is something in the hunt for the ring about that.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t the riders have some story about finding a dude on the way back to Edoras from Isengard and questioning him?
[Jenniearcheo] Where am I remembering that from?
[ChristineGolden] Grima was evil at heart – he was bound to get involved with ‘the wrong people.’
[Demosthenes] unfinished tales.
[Darkover] There is some passage about when Grima meets up with the Nazgul, or vice versa, and he can hardly tell them what they want to know fast enough to save his life. He was quite terrified, and it was touch-and-go whether they would let him go, as I recall, although they did.
[Puma] that sound like UT.fords of isen
[Darkover] I don’t recall where the passage appears, either, except it wasn’t in the body of the LotR books
[Demosthenes] i believe the black captain thought that putting the fear into him would make him potentially useful (if still unreliable)
[Darkover] You are probably right, then, Puma
[Puma] or are you referring to gandalfs meeting with elfhelm?
[Darkover] Yes, and terror was probably the main weapon of the Nazgul, anyway
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think the Nazgul instilled fear like most people breath, Demosthenes – pure habit.
[Demosthenes] and fanatical devotion to the pope.
[Puma] fear was always the nazguls main weapon
[Demosthenes] err, Sauron.
[Darkover] A little Monty Python allusion, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think it was part of some discussion of the Nazgul’s fear-whammy
[Demosthenes] i am perchance easily amused.
[Matteo] yeah, they had a very disturbing affect on ppl
[Puma] well….we had a view of the black breath all the back to bree….when merry faced nazgul
[Matteo] i mean i know when i first read the books they gave me the heebie geebies
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think this all came up when we were discussing the black breath etc.
[Demosthenes] We should talk about Aragorn and Eowyn before we wind up.
[Darkover] Yes, their initial relationship is both touching and sad
[Jenniearcheo] He seems a bit worried about her attraction to him
[Demosthenes] ‘Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ she said. ‘Hail Lady of Rohan!’ he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was a bit cloying.
[Darkover] Yes, because he eventually realizes she is falling in love with him, and he can’t return the sentiment
[Darkover] Gosh, Chris, don’t you have any romance in your soul?
[Puma] its sad.but a window into eowyns mind
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, he realizes she is falling for him
[ChristineGolden] “long, lingering looks” and “words unspoken between us” kinda stuff.
[Puma] but it was only 1 way
[Jenniearcheo] her hand trembles when they touch at the cup exchange
[Darkover] Although at that point, she might have fallen for any attractive, strong, brave man who showed up
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I do, Darkover, but I don’t show it like actors in a B movie. 😉
[Demosthenes] or hobbit
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, any potential king will do
[Susanita] two sentences that pack a big wallop
[Darkover] Yes, Aragorn was in love with Arwen, Puma
[Matteo] haha, yeah the only other choice was grima
[Demosthenes] ‘Speak not so!’ she answered. ‘A year shall I endure for every day that passes until your return.’ But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.
[Demosthenes] ‘The king shall come again,’ he said. ‘Fear not! Not West but East does our doom await us.’
[Puma] anything was better to eowyn than the despair of theoden
[Demosthenes] Aragorn dodges again. but with soemthing portentous this time.
[Jenniearcheo] True, Puma. I don’t think she’d have looked twice at Aragorn when Théoden was still down with the case of Depression.
[Darkover] I don’t believe at that point, Jennie, that Eowyn knew that Aragorn was a king, or would be. I believe she loved him because he was “high and puissant,” as someone describes him later. Plus, he seems like a way out of the situation she is in.
[Matteo] so Aragorn is both an escape from her current life and someone desirable to her
[ChristineGolden] That’s another thing: why doesn’t Aragorn just man up and say, sorry, but there’s someone else?
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: Didn’t Gandalf out him at the door?
[Susanita] she was limited in her choices among the Rohirrim I would think
[Demosthenes] jennie: they four seem like miracle workers to Rohirrim. Also, an elf and a dwarf would be remarkable company. “legends spring from the grass” and all that.
[Susanita] being the king’s neice and all
[Puma] well….think how the dunedain were later described….and aragorn was of course their leader….the men of rohan looked like boys beside the dunedain
[Darkover] I always got the impression that before Gandalf’s arrival, Theoden was almost at the point of needing to be spoon-fed. And guess who would have had to do that? No wonder Eowyn was so frustrated!
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf might have revealed who Aragorn was, I don’t recall.
[Darkover] Exactly, Puma. Why shouldn’t Eowyn have been attracted to him?
[Jenniearcheo] He did, at the door.
[Demosthenes] I doubt any rohirrim had ever seen either an elf, or a dwarf. and claims of being Elendil’s heir … i would guess that there would be mighty legends surrounding that name.
[Puma] also remember…theoden would know who aragorn was….they had met b4
[Matteo] i thought aragorn had been to Rohan before?would she not know him from that?
[Darkover] All very impressive
[ChristineGolden] But she could have married someone from Gondor (and finally did), Susanita. After all, that’s how Theoden’s father found a wife.
[Darkover] Aragorn had served Rohan before, but long before Eowyn was born.
[Jenniearcheo] And this was after armorning up and all. Word would have gotten around who ARagorn was before the toast
[Demosthenes] It would be as if Nelson Mandela or someone equally amazing came up and engaged you or i in chit-chat.
[Susanita] zackly my point
[Puma] but theoden would know aragorn.he was old enough
[Puma] and theoden adreesed aragorn as lord….he knew
[ChristineGolden] Trust me on this one, Demosthenes: Mandela could talk to me until the Second Coming and he wouldn’t make me hot. 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that
[Demosthenes] well, choose your poison then 😉
[Darkover] lol, Chris, but I quite agree. There are more physically attractive examples, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] justin beiber for everyone then!
[Darkover] Er, no
[Jenniearcheo] Even my teenage fell beast won’t go near him
[Jenniearcheo] She prefers someone from Sleeping with Sirens
[Demosthenes] Basically, Aragorn has suddenly become a superstar in Rohan.
* Dwyna shudders
[Matteo] yep all that and a bag of chips, suddenly she sees salvation, and I feel like he speaks to her differently than the other men in her life
[Puma] that theoden knew who araogrn was…is one of things the movies put in.and jrr just expected us to figure out
[Jenniearcheo] Kellin Quinn, she says. There you go.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure about that. Tolkien’s Aragorn has the kind of manly virtues that would have been very admired by anyone in that age, heir to the throne of Gondor or not.
[Darkover] BTW, someone asked a few comments back why Aragorn didn’t just announce that he was in love with someone else. I think he didn’t want to embarrass Eowyn by being too open about it. After all, although her feelings were pretty plain, she hadn’t shown any *open* indication of interest.
[Susanita] he’s probably ever so slightly exotic and that makes him compelling too
[Demosthenes] Darkover: agreed. also it would kill tension. 😉
[Puma] good observation darkover.and true
[Darkover] Plus, Aragorn was probably hot. Maybe not as handsome as an Elf, but hot by Rohirric standards.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Was Aragorn sure, at this point, that Arwen wasn’t going West?
[Matteo] haha, in the end I guess you do have to fall back on, Cuz thats how the Professor wrote it
[Demosthenes] That makes Gimli the equivalent of the superstar band’s drummer?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Or the bassist
[Susanita] spontaneously combusting drummer?
[Darkover] No, Jennie, but that didn’t mean he was ready to forget about Arwen, or about their engagement.
[Puma] remember…arwen was with aragorn all the time….she looked after him with her mind
[ChristineGolden] That was me, Darkover. There’s ways to indicate a lack of interest without saying ‘get lost.’
[Susanita] he kept that Arwen thing pretty close to the vest even to the reader
[Demosthenes] There was no certainty that they would even win.
[Matteo] Ok, maybe this reading to much, but I’m thinking he had other things on his mind than another loive interested
[Demosthenes] All they had was hope.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, ChristineGolden. But we’re looking at it from a contemporary perspective. Aragorn probably doesn’t have to turn girls down all the time.
[Puma] but i am sure he did b4
[Demosthenes] This chapter provides a tiny bit more hope too. But maybe only a glimmer.
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: He noticed, anyway
[Puma] maybe not often
[Darkover] And this girl was the niece, and emotionally sort of the daughter, of the King of Rohan.
[Darkover] A certain degree of discretion is advised.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he seem the sort of guy that a girl in Barliman’s would chat up?
[Puma] aragorn was being diplomatic with eowyn
[ChristineGolden] In that age with its dangers and uncertainties, Jennie? A strong warrior/protector would be considered a perfect catch.
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, but the culture is totally different.
[Puma] but i am sure in his yrs as thorongil in gondor.aragorn got plenty of attention
[Susanita] we know many girls in this Barliman’s who would chat up Aragorn 😉
[Matteo] Right, but what I mean is he was not thinking at that moment ” I need to figure out how let her down” he was preoccupied with saving first Rohan and then heading east
[Puma] he would more fit in there
[Darkover] And if Gandalf did “out” Aragorn by revealing that he was of royal blood, that would be an appropriate match for the niece of the King of Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] People didn’t often look for their own mates. At least not well born folk
[ChristineGolden] Lol, Susanita.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sus
[Darkover] That is real life, Jennie. In Tolkien’s world, lots of couples married for love.
[Jenniearcheo] His arm actually did tremble when he put it around me for a photo. But it was early days then in terms of fame
[Susanita] he prob’ly also saw it as an unneeded complication
[Matteo] thats much better put susanita
[ChristineGolden] They seemed to in Middle Earth, Jennie. I don’t remember a lot of arranged marriages.
[Darkover] I agree, Susanita, but he seems to have wanted to be kind to Eowyn, too. He did not want to hurt or offend her.
[Jenniearcheo] Do you remember a lot of dating?
[Susanita] right, Darkover
[Darkover] Dating, no. Although there could have been courtship of sorts
[Jenniearcheo] Pretty much you meet your one true love and that’s that. Except in this cawse
[Puma] and something we are forgetting.aragorn had good forsight as a ruling dunedain….so what did he see?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Faramir wooed Eowyn, Jen, in the House of Healing.
[Puma] he did
[Demosthenes] puma: peril mostly.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, she was distracted and needed to wake up. True
[Darkover] Yes, Chris speaks true, that was really sweet, IMO
[Puma] but that is way ahead ogf this chapter
[Matteo] oh yeah his line there was perfect
[Jenniearcheo] But again, there’s not a lot of “call me maybe” and then getting dumped and crying at the bar with your girlfriends and meeting a new guy, etc.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, but there’s no example in this chapter I could think of, although Theoden did meet and marry a woman of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, not that we see, anyway
[Puma] that was thengel theoden father.who married morwen
[Susanita] Theoden probably got out of Rohan a bit more than the average villager
[Puma] theodens wife was hild
[Susanita] thank you Puma I was trying to remember that
[Puma] and hild died in childbirth
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, I doubt that Aragorn’s body language has ever invited attention from women, so he probably had no experience in letting them down easy, is my point.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, sorry, Puma, I forgot it was the dad.
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was born in Gondor.
[Susanita] Aragorn essentially a loner much of the time
[Demosthenes] jennie: and maybe his BO too. We’re talking about someone who lives rough most of the time.
[Puma] dont be sorry jennie.easy to get confused.so many names.and you know stuff
[Matteo] I agree though that he was an honorable person who would want to do right by Eowyn.
[Jenniearcheo] He met Arwen quite early on
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Puma] at age 20
[Susanita] they were all probably a bit … unwashed
[Darkover] But he cleaned up good, Demosthenes. Remember how Arwen was impressed when he did so, at Lorien?
[Jenniearcheo] Very early for one of his sort
[ChristineGolden] Well, as a female, I’d rather a guy just say “no thanks” rather than stringing me along soas not to hurt my feelings.
[Matteo] you mean his dunedain musk. its like catnip
[Jenniearcheo] Good thing Galadriel put clean clothes on him
[Jenniearcheo] lol Matteo
[ChristineGolden] Another one of her schemes.
[Demosthenes] Okay, do we have any final points on this chapter? Anything we’ve overlooked?
[Jenniearcheo] They finally give Shadowfax to Gandalf
[Puma] did you discuss earlier……that the beginning of this chapter was an intro to rohirric culture?
[ChristineGolden] The historic bonds between Gondor and Rohan?
[Darkover] So would I, Chris, but then, you and I live in a world where a woman can generally be more open about her feelings than Eowyn’s was. Plus, this is a fairy tale, with the accompanying romance and plot developments. So Aragorn could hardly have nipped the whole thing in the bud.
[Darkover] I think we’ve discussed about everything.
[Susanita] what’s next week’s topic?
[Vince] Why does Eowyn fall for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure we have one yet.
[Demosthenes] Not sure. Open to suggestions.
[Darkover] We discussed that, Vince
[Vince] Sorry, I’m late :/
[ChristineGolden] Oh, looking for ideas, Demosthenes? lol
[Puma] how about the presence of the valar in lotr?
[Vince] Next week, can we go back to the Hobbit?
[Vince] I just finished reading that
[ChristineGolden] movie or book version?
[Vince] and I’m reading Exploring J.R.R Tolkien’s The Hobbit book
[Demosthenes] Not keen to run two book chats in parallel.
[Susanita] well, we read it here too a while ago
[Jenniearcheo] Corey’s book, Vince?
[Jenniearcheo] Good read
[Vince] I’m enjoying it
[Darkover] We could just discuss the next chapter of TT. Or something else Tolkien-related
[Vince] I thought this chat was book only?
[Puma] who is the author?
[ChristineGolden] maybe something about the evil creatures of ME?
[Jenniearcheo] Is there a particular aspect of The Hobbit you want to explore? Dragon-sickness, maybe?
[Susanita] it’s usually book alternating with another topic in the “off” week
[Demosthenes] vince: not alweays. though we’ve had a strong run of book stuff lately.
[Jenniearcheo] Corey Olsen, Puma
[ChristineGolden] balrogs, dragons, orcs, Nazgul, etc?
[Darkover] Why don’t we leave it open for the time being?
[Vince] hmm, I’d be interested in discussing the nature of evil in Tolkien’s works but yeah dragon sickness interests me too
[Puma] we can suggest to Demz over the wekk
[Vince] those two kinda go hand in hand
[Vince] nature of evil and dragon sickness
[Demosthenes] send me some emails firstname.lastname@example.org
[Susanita] dragon sickness is a good one
[Jenniearcheo] Sounds like a plan
[Jenniearcheo] (the emailing)
[Darkover] aka “greed”
[Puma] the nature of evil in jrr….would take a week.not 2 hrs
[Matteo] or longer
[Vince] maybe like how greed for gold and the effect gold has on the characters and how similar it is to the lure of the ring later on
[ChristineGolden] Are you sure you want me to do that, Demosthenes? 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it could be lightly explored
[Jenniearcheo] And chasing after sparklies?
[Darkover] Well, we don’t have to make the decision right this minute. We will think of something, we always do
[Susanita] I’m reading a book about China and dragon means smth else
[Demosthenes] I promise to at least read them 😉
[Susanita] kinda fun
[Puma] gold is a powerful morgoth element
[Vince] I wish I’m not always late
[Puma] i am reading a good book about aragorn now
[Vince] Saturday is just my day off and I do other things too.
[Susanita] reset your clock?
[Darkover] so, are we all finished here?
[Matteo] this was fun
[Vince] I made Torn Tuesday though
[Puma] good job everyone.its been a pleasure
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] I went to TORn Tuesday. once.
[Myra] hm still reading that book I see puma
[Jenniearcheo] Husband is cooking me chicken curry
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone.
Session Close: Sun May 19 09:51:40 2013