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Month: August 2003
There’s been a bit of a break since the last posted transcript, but here’s a new bunch of three to bring everyone up to date. And you can access the entire set via the Barliman archives.
[Lesson 6] [Lesson 7] [Lesson 8]
There’s been a bit of a break since the last posted transcript, but here’s a new bunch of three to bring everyone up to date. And you can access the entire set via the Barliman archives.
[Lesson 6] [Lesson 7] [Lesson 8]
<inJvstice> greetings
<inJvstice> well Gorlab (Kris) may be joining us later in the session
<
<Annatar> Annatar here Aiya!
<Alorin> Suilaid
<Annatar> first order of business, did anyone catch the lessons we did about Qenya or Sindarin verbs?
<jincey> i did…. but don’t count me ; )
<The_One_Ring> i missed it.
<Annatar> or, or that matter, Quenya 😉
<Beruthiel> I think so, but can’t remember
<Annatar> OK, how about last week’s Tengwar lesson?
<Beruthiel> nope
<Annatar> OK
<Annatar> First off,
<Annatar> inJvstice will show how the inscripiton on the title page of LOTR is constructed
<inJvstice> o.k. so I’ve been asked to mention a bit about the runic inscriptions
<inJvstice> does everyone have a copy of ROTK?
<Beruthiel> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> yesss
<The_One_Ring> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> or course
<inJvstice> specifically the Title Page, and appn. E
<The_One_Ring> yup
<inJvstice> k, in Appx E there is the basic chart for the Tengwar Characters
<inJvstice> Tengwar is the plural form of Tengwa (or letter)
<Beruthiel> ok, found it
<inJvstice> well to begin with this is the basic way each of the tengwar is presented
<inJvstice> These letters represent basic phonetic sounds,
<inJvstice> so they can be used to represent any given language.
<inJvstice> For instance one could use them to write in Quenya, Sindarin, or English
<inJvstice> (or any other language for that matter….Russian, Spanish, etc….)
<The_One_Ring> but, isn’t it easiest in quenya/sindarian because of the consonant clusters, and diphthongs?
<The_One_Ring> etc.
<inJvstice> well yes. in a sense
<Elaran> no…
<inJvstice> The Tengwar are somewhat originally formed for Quenya
<inJvstice> however, by changing the values along certain phonetically logical lines
<inJvstice> they can be used for any language
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<inJvstice> English is somewhat difficult since there are several letters which have similar sounds
<inJvstice> k and q for instance
<inJvstice> so
<inJvstice> hmmm there is a site where you can find the tengwar values for most languages
<inJvstice> Quenya, Sindarin, English, a few others
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
<Beruthiel> http://mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php how about this one?
<inJvstice> the sites contains charts for Quenya, Sindarin, Sindarin Beleriand, and English
<inJvstice> I like these since they use the same structure as the appx E
<inJvstice> While giving you all the needed values for each letter
<inJvstice> anyhooo. I tried this last week and discovered that this is not a good medium for teaching Tengwar use…..
<inJvstice> I can’t demonstrate
<inJvstice> so I’ll simply say this….
<inJvstice> that by following the charts with English values, you can translate
<inJvstice> the Title Page inscription
<inJvstice> which in Roman Characters reads….
<inJvstice> “of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the Hobbits”
<jincey> of westmarch?
<jincey> nothing before that?
<inJvstice> this is the bottom of the page
<Alorin> of.. like about
<inJvstice> the top of the page in the Cirith Runes reads “The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book”
inJvstice> (thats the first part of the whole thing)
<Beruthiel> never knew that
<jincey> nice : )
<inJvstice> I’ve not made much study of the Cirith….though appx E also contains translations for the Cirith
<inJvstice> for now there is a tengwar textbook that ban be downloaded from
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001
<inJvstice> this a truely remarkable textbook on how to use the tengwar
<Beruthiel> got it
<inJvstice> also the use of the tethar, which are the diacritic marks above and below the tengwar
<inJvstice> you’ll see these in the title page inscirption.
<inJvstice> these are the vowels
<The_One_Ring> im getting it now
<inJvstice> kewl
<inJvstice> thats about all I can really do right now on tengwar….
<inJvstice> so I’ll let y’all look at that for the next few weeks or so
<The_One_Ring> i already have this, though, but i haven’t really looked at it.
<inJvstice> At any of our chats if you’ve any questions I’ll be around to answer them
<The_One_Ring> yet
<jincey> folks, y’all head to atlanta for dragoncon labor day weekend…
<inJvstice> it is worth a look see
<jincey> see these folks in person : )
<inJvstice> yes thanx Jincey, I and my compatriots will be there running this in person
<Elaran> lol
<inJvstice> There I’ll be able to give better instructions and to demonstrate the use of the tnegwar
<Beruthiel> wish Atlanta was closer
<inJvstice> until then the text book is a great resorce
<Beruthiel> then Jincey can teach us!
<The_One_Ring> if only i could drive…
<inJvstice> I’m going to attempt a slide show or some other medium to cover this online
<inJvstice> though I might be able to before the DragonCon
<Beruthiel> there’s a workshop at the Toronto Gathering that I’ll be going to
<The_One_Ring> awsum.
<inJvstice> for now I’m going to turn over to Annatar……
<Annatar> Hello..
<Annatar> I usually appear in these chats as Annatar
<Annatar> but my name is Paul
<Beruthiel> hi Paul
<Annatar> Sindarin is the area I usually cover,
<Elaran> i lam arth 😉
<Annatar> but I also do a lot of phonology,
<Annatar> or pronunciation, if you will
<Annatar> Sindarin is particularly interesting in that its elements often change their sound
<Annatar> according to what their “job” is in the sentnce
<Annatar> altough this sounds a lot like a “case system” such as you’d have in, say Latin or Russian
<The_One_Ring> im learning quenya right now, but do you suggest also learning sindarian?
<Annatar> it’s not normally described like that
<The_One_Ring> similar to russian. thats good.
<Annatar> Honestly,
<Annatar> I think that it is a good idea to try learning Quenya first
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> as TORN no doubt knows
<Annatar> there is a good Quenya course at Ardalambion.com
<The_One_Ring> i am using that.
<Annatar> which everyone rightfully refers to as the place you need to go
<Annatar> for Sindarin, http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
<Alorin> Annatar.. there isnt much information about Sindarin phonology around.. and the info that there is, usually speaks of the pronounciation of vowels and letter separately
<Annatar> is the place to go
<Annatar> needless to say, what we know about
<Elaran> as opposed to what Alorin?
<Annatar> Sindarin phonology
<Annatar> is somewhat fragmentary
<Annatar> however, there seems to be ageneral agreement amongst scholars
<Annatar> (one of whom I am not)
<Annatar> as to what Sindarin sounds like
<Annatar> This allowed David Salo to write Sindarin dialogue for PJ’s LOTR movie
<Annatar> although the pronuciation is not always what everyone would like
<Annatar> case in point
<Annatar> it’s
<Annatar> in a 2 syllable word
<Annatar> the stress always falls on the 1st syllable
<Annatar> this rule applies to bith Sindarin and Quenya
<Annatar> both
<Annatar> However, the guide in App.E of LOTR is usually sufficient
<Annatar> as a guide to pronunciation
<Annatar> when you her JRRT reading some of his own poetry
<Annatar> in both Quenya and Sindarin, it is consistent with his written guidelines
<Annatar> next week, I’ll try to do a quick review of the Sindarin verb
<Annatar> and intruduce sound mutations
<Annatar> it’s not really that hard though
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we all know that
<Annatar> I’ll just give you one more online resource
<Annatar> http://www.aboriginemundi.com/sindarin/related.htm
<Annatar> this will link you to a truly KILLER Sindarin dictionary
<Annatar> there is also a Windows app that encapsulates this dictionary
<Annatar> now, to close this session, Kris, aka Gorlab will say a few words about Quenya,
<Gorlab> Hello everybody, this is Kris Nelson here now…
<Gorlab> I deal with the Quenya end of things…
<Beruthiel> hi Kris
<Gorlab> Quenya is, of course the “other” Elvish tongue…
<Gorlab> as opposed to Sindarin…
<Gorlab> In the inner story, Quenya was the language spoken by the three tribes of elves that lived across the sea from Middle-Earth in Aman – land of the Gods….
<Gorlab> Those three tribes were the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri….
<Gorlab> The Noldor spoke what could be viewed as the closest thing to “book” Quenya as you can get…
<Gorlab> The Vanyar spoke a slightly different dialect and there were features of Telerin that could almost be considered a seperate kind of language, but for the most part they all spoke QUENYA…
<Gorlab> When the Noldor left Aman to return back to Middle-earth they brought Quenya with them…
<Gorlab> but not before they slaughtered some of their kin, the Teleri, to do it…
<Gorlab> when this fact was discovered by the Sindarin king Thingol, Quenya was banned in public in the kingdom of the Sindar and became a “book” tongue…
<Gorlab> Quenya survives into the third-age Lord of the Rings era through Galadriel and some of her speeches in Lothlorien…
<Gorlab> Galadriel, of course was one of the Noldorin exiles from way back in the 1rst age and so is one of our only native speakers…
<Gorlab> As for the language itself…
<Gorlab> it resembles Finnish in some aspects….
<Gorlab> because that was one of the languages of Tolkien’s heart…
<Gorlab> one of the languages that he approved of aesthetically…
<Gorlab> and it is the languge of the Kalevala, the finnish mythological epic that inspired a lot of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion…
<jincey> so we could go into #kontu and hear something akin to quenya?
<
<Gorlab> Yes, something akin to Quenya..
<Gorlab> actually, I met two lovely Finnish skiers who let me assail them with Quenya phrases…
<Gorlab> they remarked about how similar it DID sound…
<Beruthiel> lol
<jincey> really?
<Gorlab> Very Good lessons are available on Helge Fauskanger’s site, Ardalambion
<Gorlab> It is his Quenya course.
<The_One_Ring> ok. councilofelrond.com has a sindarian course, but i havnt looked at it yet. have you seen it? do you think it would be any good?
<Gorlab> Helge’s course has lessons, examples, problems, and keys and is very good for beginners, as it shows what we know and what we don’t know about Tolkien’s languages…
<Annatar> I, too am curious about their course
<Annatar> Unfortunately, it conflicts with my schedule
<Elaran> lol
<Elaran> <--- tis my course
<Annatar> However, Sindarin right now is in a fair amount of flux,
<Annatar> and all that we can determine about its stucture and vocabulary
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> is of use to the general Tolkien linguistic community
<Annatar> up until the movies
<Annatar> much effort was being dedicated towards Quenya
<Annatar> but now with the new movie-based LOTR interest,
<Annatar> there has been a great upsurge on Sindarin interest, and new scholarship as well
<Annatar> that’s it for me, but Gorlab has a few things to say
<jincey> ok
<Gorlab> So, to wrap things up,
<Gorlab> Next week we are going to hopefully cover some Elvish phrases…
<Gorlab> We have, (for those who have been before) covered pronunciation
<Gorlab> nouns
<Gorlab> verbs
<Gorlab> in both Sindarin and Quenya.
<Gorlab> With some detouring into pronouns..
<Gorlab> For those who are new,
<The_One_Ring> what about adjectives?
<Gorlab> it really isn’t that hard to catch up and catch on…
<Beruthiel> I have gone into the acrchives and read the other sessions that are posted there
<Gorlab> We are going to slip in some descriptive terms once we have our objects interacting with our subjects…
<The_One_Ring> ok.
<Gorlab> Building this way we can make more and more complex sentences…
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<Gorlab> You all are wonderful people to be here like this and be interested in keeping Tolkien’s spirit alive through exercising his creation..
<jincey> you are wonderful for sharing your knowledge with us : )
<Gorlab> I must go fight Dragons now, so I hope to see you all next week – Namarie!
<jincey> night guys!
<Alorin> Navaer, Gorlab.. Le hannon ‘ni l ‘fb i ‘f3nech ammen!
Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
Annatar has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
<jincey> thanks for coming y’all 🙂
<Annatar> tonite will be the sindarin verb
<GollumsGal> ok.
<GollumsGal> i teach Elvish lessons myself, but i just wanted to see what you guys were teaching
<Lothengriol> Does anyone know if “galen” is singular or plural?
<GollumsGal> singular
<Lothengriol> Thank you.
<GollumsGal> ur welcome
<Lothengriol> So mirgalen would be green jewel?
<GollumsGal> well, i would say it as galen m”r, personally
<GollumsGal> since it’s Sindarin
<Lothengriol> Oh, I thought if it followed it meant “of the..” Thank you again
<GollumsGal> well, according to The Languages of Tolkiens Middle Earth, adjectives go before the word they describe
<jincey> hiya gorlab : )
<Gorlab> ‘Ullo!
<GollumsGal> what’s that mean?
<Gorlab> Thanks!
<Gorlab> Ullo?
<jincey> hiya : )
<GollumsGal> what does mode change mean?
<Gorlab> It’s a written approximation of a cockney accent…
<Gorlab> Ah….
<GollumsGal> huh?
<GollumsGal> oh
<GollumsGal> hey, Gorlab, can i ask u a question before the lesson?
<Gorlab> Certainly.
<Gorlab> Fire Away…
<GollumsGal> ok. i’ve never been to any of your lessons before, but i was reading the transcript to lesson 4, and i got confused
<Gorlab> what particular part?
<GollumsGal> on the pronouns
<Gorlab> What confuses you about the pronouns?
<Annatar> Quenya or Sindarin?
<GollumsGal> u see, i teach Elvish myself, and in all my sources, i never found any sentence with -nye as “I”
<GollumsGal> except in utuvienyes
<GollumsGal> but i thought that -yes meant “it”
<Gorlab> -s means “it”
<GollumsGal> at least that’s what it says in The Languages of Tolkien’s Middle Earth
<Gorlab> Ruth Noel’s?
<GollumsGal> yes
<GollumsGal> brb
<Gorlab> Some of the information in Ruth Noel’s book has been superceded by information published after her book was….
<Lothengriol> I read that nad tried to learn some, but now hear that it isn’t definative
<Gorlab> …such as the History of Middle earth series and some publications like Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon….
<Gorlab> To answer GollumsGal’s question,
<Lothengriol> Wouldn’t it be wise to edit it and republish it, rather than earn a bad reputation?
<Gorlab> 1rst person Singular Present tense (“I am”)….
<Lothengriol> brb
<Annatar> I am personally unaware of the author’s intention regarding that book, but it appears that the publisher simply couldn’t resist
<Gorlab> is made by combining the present tense verb na- ( “is”) with the 1rst person singular -nye to caom up with “nanye”
<Gorlab> come up with, excuse me
<GollumsGal> ok, i’m back
<Gorlab> the “ye”portion of -nye can be shortened to just “n”
<Annatar> So it’s no precisely a pronoun, but more of “pronomial” ending that does the job of indicating number and person
<Gorlab> making it “nan”
<GollumsGal> yes, ok, i knew that
<GollumsGal> ok, thanks for yur help
<GollumsGal> *your
<Gorlab> Yes indeed, avatar!
<Gorlab> 😉
<GollumsGal> avatar?
<Gorlab> No problem, GollumsGal…
<GollumsGal> oh
<Gorlab> Avatar…has it become that time?
<Lothengriol> I’m back, I couldn”t find the etymologies. Now I have the big book out.
<Annatar> ava=go, flee tar=lord
<Gorlab> er…I mean Annatar…
<Gorlab> ava is “don’t”
<Annatar> and Gil-Galad would not treat with Annatar…
<Annatar> ok
<Gorlab> Ahem…..Annatar – is it about that time?
<Annatar> Mae govannen y’all
<Annatar> Good evening and thank you for coming
<Gorlab> elen sila lumenn’ omentielvo everypeoples!
<jincey> hi y’all : )
<GollumsGal> a na le, mellyn
<Gorlab> Tonight – that wonder of wonders….
<Annatar> Yes, i’ve already seen the trailer, so let’s talk about Verbs!
<Gorlab> (drum roll please)
<Gorlab> SINDARIN VERBS!!!!
<Annatar> let’s all hear it for the Sindarin verb!
<Gorlab> Huzzah!
<GollumsGal> yay!
<Annatar> Happily, some good work has been done concerning the Sindarin verb recently
<Annatar> Helge Faukanger, to whom we so often refer, has done a rather complex derivation based on the theories of david Salo, who did th Movie Sindarin
<Annatar> however, Ryszard Igor Jerzy Derdzinski has simplified it without alteration
<Annatar> so, it is based on information at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm that I’l be basing this lesson
<Annatar> for all you newcomers, Helge is at http://ardalambion.com/
<Annatar> I take that many of you are already familiar with these sources
<Annatar> yes?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<NerwenArtanis> yes
<GollumsGal> uh-huh
<Annatar> no is an ok answer too
<Annatar> so, here we go
<GollumsGal> well, with the first, not the other
<Beruthiel> got it now
<Annatar> alright, in both Quenya and Sindarin there are two kinds of verb
<Annatar> They are the Basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> Supposedly, this refers to the structure of [rimitive Elivsh
<Annatar> for our purposes, suffice it to say that they take slighlty different forms
<Annatar> because of their stems
<Annatar> we wil be covering 3 tenses–past, present and future
<Annatar> and 3 moods indicitive, supjunctive, and imperitive
<Annatar> and most confusingly we will deal with continuative vs. aorist senses
<Elessar_T> I gather this will be linguistic heavy
<Annatar> not that bad
<Gorlab> It’s not that difficult – everything should be defined and explained…
<Annatar> some of it’s harder to discuss than to do
<GollumsGal> what about auxiliary?
<Annatar> none just yet, but many aux. functions are carried out by these senses
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we’ll use the example ped-
<Annatar> which is the root for the verb “speak”
<Annatar> the Aorist sense would be “I am (always) speaking”
<Annatar> or “I (as a matter of course) speak
<Annatar> that would be “pedin”
<Elessar_T> just a question (I missed the start), is this Sindarin or Quenya?
<Annatar> but “I am speaking (rigth now) is “pidon”
<Annatar> Sindarin
<Elessar_T> ok
<Gorlab> We covered Quenya Verbs in lesson 5…
<GollumsGal> so the “tense” is ‘-o’
<Annatar> ped- is Baic verb, so it gets the vowel change
<Elessar_T> ok, guess I missed that one
<GollumsGal> oh
<Elessar_T> I see that it’s Sindarin now anyway.
<Gorlab> (no prob Elessar….lesson 5 should be posted any time now…)
<Annatar> -on as and ending applies to 1st sing –“I” for both basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> in the continuative (right now) sense
<Maeglin_Lomion> So the difference between “ped” and “pid” is perpetual vs. immediate?
<GollumsGal> ok, but if it didn’t have I as a subject?
<GollumsGal> *”I”
<Annatar> endings soon
<GollumsGal> ok, sorry
<Annatar> pidon=continuative pedin= Aorist
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> but let’s look at those endings shall we?
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Let’s!
<GollumsGal> yes, let’s
<Annatar> to begin with the continuative, it’s “pidon” and “pidam” for 1st person
<Annatar> singular and plural
<Annatar> that becomss “pidoch” and “pidach” for 2nd person familiar in sing and pl
<Annatar> “Pidol” and “pidal” for 2nd person Formal
<Annatar> and “pida” and “pidar” for 3rd person in Singular and plural
<Annatar> So, “we are speaking (now)” is “pidam”
<Annatar> “he/she/it is speaking now” is “pida”
<Annatar> dow this make sense?
<Annatar> does
<GollumsGal> yes, it does
<Elessar_T> it does to me
<Annatar> thanx
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes.
<Annatar> Let’s now advance to the Aorist
<Annatar> We are still in the present tens, but now we are referring to more or less eternal conditions
<GollumsGal> now, what *does* aorist mean?
<Annatar> The example I have often used is that when my father says “the Yankee’s stink” he’s only currently disappointed with them
<Gorlab> The aorist, in a way is beyond specific tenses…
<GollumsGal> okÉ
<Gorlab> it denotes timeless truths…
<Annatar> however, when some mocks my beloved Cubs by saying “The Cubs stink” they mean that it’s and unchanging reality
<Zach> did i miss the elvish lesson?
<Annatar> jsut expling the Aorist sense
<Elessar_T> only the start of it
<Gorlab> “The Cubs stink” is certainly a timeless truth…
<jincey> lol
<GollumsGal> of course!
<Elessar_T> get back to the sindarin verb, thanks
<Annatar> Now, to form this wonderful sense of the verb, differest rndings apply
<Annatar> endings apply
<Annatar> starting with ped-
<Annatar> we get “pedin” and pedim” for the 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> notice that the “e” in ped- remains the same
<Annatar> you may also notice that “n” and “m” still end the word
<GollumsGal> so it only becomes “i” for continuative?
<Annatar> exactly, rushing on to 2nd person, we get for 2nd familiar
<Annatar> “pedich” in both Sing and pl
<Annatar> and for 2nd person Formal we have “pedil” for singular and plural
<Annatar> 3rd goes like “pEd” and “pedir” for singular and plural
<Annatar> the “E” indicates an accent (your choice)
<Annatar> so to say “he speaks” in the sense of “he speaks for all of us” you would use “pEd”
<Annatar> still with me?
<GollumsGal> so could that be pŽd?
<Annatar> I guess
<GollumsGal> ok
<Elessar_T> with you
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> still with you
<Annatar> the important thing is to indicate the long, that is actually lengthened vowel
<GollumsGal> still w/ ya
<Maeglin_Lomion> What was that 2nd character after the p, GollumsGal? I got a square box.
<GollumsGal> e with an accent
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> ’cause in Sindarin, the lengthened vowel is considered to be grammatically seperate
<Annatar> Tolkien never quite seemed to decide, so I can’t really either
<Elessar_T> accent and cirkumflex can both be applied to a vowel to indicate lengthened sound, right?
<Annatar> exactly
<Annatar> now let’s try a derived vowel
<Annatar> linna-
<Annatar> it means “sing”
<Annatar> now this follows about the same pattern of “ped-“
<GollumsGal> i thought it meant ‘chant’
<Elessar_T> sing and chant are quite synonymous, though
<GollumsGal> oh, ok\
<Annatar> BUT, it doesn’t have the vowel trans form in the stem that “ped-” does
<GollumsGal> why not?
<Annatar> ’cause it’s derived, and, and, well, it’s derived?
<Annatar> I don’t really know
<GollumsGal> k
<Elessar_T> but it is in most cases possible to see the difference between them, right?
<Annatar> but that’s the only real reason we’re messing around with “derived” vs. “basic,” which doesn’t really matter other wise
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> from “linna-” we get “linnom” and “linnam” ind 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> “linnoch” and “linnach” for 2nd person familiar sing/pl
<Annatar> “linnol” and “linnal” for 2nd pers. sing/pl
<Annatar> and “linna” and “linnar” for 3rd person sing/pl
<Annatar> so it’s not really that different
<Elessar_T> why does the 1st person singular end with an “m”? it ended with “n” in basic verbs
<Annatar> sorry bad typing, you are correct
<GollumsGal> ok, whew
<Annatar> it should be “linnon” for 1st
<Elessar_T> ok, typo demons are annoying 🙁
<Annatar> to get to Aorist, we don’t really have to do much else
<Annatar> 1st person Aorist sing/pl is “linnan”/ “linnam”
<Annatar> 2nd person Familiar is “linnach” for sing and pl
<Annatar> 2nd Formal is “linnal” for sing/pl
<Annatar> and for 3rtd it’s “liina” and “linnar”
<Annatar> so, the endings and transfor mations should be alittle clearer now
<GollumsGal> what is 3rd singular?
<Elessar_T> how do you pronounce a double vowel? is it long like if it had an accent?
<Annatar> “linna”
<GollumsGal> oh, k
<Elessar_T> oops sorry
<Annatar> opps
Action: Elessar_T kills Annatar’s typo demon
<Annatar> thanx
<Annatar> now we’ll try to get into the past (tense)
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Kill the Typo Daemons….
<GollumsGal> lol
<Annatar> ist’s basically an insetions of “-nt” which mutates to “nn” in actual usage
<GollumsGal> what does that mean?
<Annatar> so, going 1st/2ndfam/2ndFormal/3rd we get
<Elessar_T> this goes for both basic and derived verbs?
<Annatar> this is where you see a siligh difference “pennin”/”pennim”
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> what is an insetion?
<Annatar> “linnen”/linnem”
<GollumsGal> could you like rewind and clarify?
<Elessar_T> insection is between the stem and the ending, right?
<Annatar> insertion, rather
<Elessar_T> ok
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> oh, ok, thanks
<Annatar> yes, exactly
<Elessar_T> infix is another word for it, I think
<Annatar> for 2nd familiar, we get “pennich” for sing/pl and “linnech” for sing. pl
<Gorlab> It is now Gorlab’s time to leave this fine hall…but I hope to see you all next week. Annatar will continue on in fine form as he has been for as long as he can but for me:
<Gorlab> Namarie!!!
<GollumsGal> bye
<Maeglin_Lomion> Namárië, Gorlab.
<Annatar> for 2nd Formal it’s “pennil” and “linnel”
<jincey> : )
<Annatar> and for 3rd, and this is the good part…
<Maeglin_Lomion> What does the root “pen” mean?
<Elessar_T> speak
<Annatar> ped- is to speak
<Maeglin_Lomion> How did we get to pen from ped?
<Elessar_T> but go on. 3rd person..
<Annatar> beut that -nt just kills the “d” and makes it “n”
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, thanks.
<GollumsGal> ok, but it is bsorbed by the n in linna?
<GollumsGal> *absorbed
<Annatar> for “ped-” 3rd sing is “pent” and plural is “pennir”
<Annatar> but for “linna-“
<Annatar> it’s “linnant” sing and “linner” ind 3rd person
<Elessar_T> why?
<GollumsGal> whoa, why?
<Annatar> this is where we see that ped- is a stem that ends in a consonant
<Elessar_T> wait, I see, basic/derived right?
<Annatar> and “linna- is a stem that ends in a vowel
<Annatar> yes, Elessar, thou hast got it
<GollumsGal> uh, Annatar, what would be the root for noro?
<GollumsGal> is it basic or derived?
<Elessar_T> I guess I’m just talented with languages 🙂
<Annatar> I had hoped to get to the future tense, which also comes in continuative and Aorist senses, but just go to http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm and if you’ve followed this so far, it shouldn’t be too hard
<Annatar> one sec, GG I’d have to look it up
<GollumsGal> k
<Annatar> “noro” like in “noro lIm Asfoloth,” right?
<GollumsGal> yes
<Elessar_T> sounds basic to me… but I’m not an expert…
<Annatar> “noro” would be in the imperative, which end is “o”
<Annatar> for basic, just add “o”
<Annatar> for derived substitute “o” for the vowel
<GollumsGal> k, i think got it
<GollumsGal> *i got
<Maeglin_Lomion> As in…pedo and linno?
<Annatar> Thank you all for coming, we’ll be back next week
Greetings, Quickbeam here. This mind-bending contest is sure to challenge all you Ringer fans: the GB4A Cryptic Crossword! Solve the puzzle for a chance at delicious prizes (and bragging rights that you conquered Bill Welden’s diabolical grid). Today marks the GREEN BOOKS’ 4th Anniversary of exploring the WORDS and WORLDS of J.R.R. Tolkien. Thanks for a wonderful 4 years!