<inJvstice> well Gorlab (Kris) may be joining us later in the session
<Annatar> Annatar here Aiya!
<Annatar> first order of business, did anyone catch the lessons we did about Qenya or Sindarin verbs?
<jincey> i did…. but don’t count me ; )
<The_One_Ring> i missed it.
<Annatar> or, or that matter, Quenya 😉
<Beruthiel> I think so, but can’t remember
<Annatar> OK, how about last week’s Tengwar lesson?
<Annatar> First off,
<Annatar> inJvstice will show how the inscripiton on the title page of LOTR is constructed
<inJvstice> o.k. so I’ve been asked to mention a bit about the runic inscriptions
<inJvstice> does everyone have a copy of ROTK?
<The_Mighty_Turnip> or course
<inJvstice> specifically the Title Page, and appn. E
<inJvstice> k, in Appx E there is the basic chart for the Tengwar Characters
<inJvstice> Tengwar is the plural form of Tengwa (or letter)
<Beruthiel> ok, found it
<inJvstice> well to begin with this is the basic way each of the tengwar is presented
<inJvstice> These letters represent basic phonetic sounds,
<inJvstice> so they can be used to represent any given language.
<inJvstice> For instance one could use them to write in Quenya, Sindarin, or English
<inJvstice> (or any other language for that matter….Russian, Spanish, etc….)
<The_One_Ring> but, isn’t it easiest in quenya/sindarian because of the consonant clusters, and diphthongs?
<inJvstice> well yes. in a sense
<inJvstice> The Tengwar are somewhat originally formed for Quenya
<inJvstice> however, by changing the values along certain phonetically logical lines
<inJvstice> they can be used for any language
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<inJvstice> English is somewhat difficult since there are several letters which have similar sounds
<inJvstice> k and q for instance
<inJvstice> hmmm there is a site where you can find the tengwar values for most languages
<inJvstice> Quenya, Sindarin, English, a few others
<Beruthiel> http://mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php how about this one?
<inJvstice> the sites contains charts for Quenya, Sindarin, Sindarin Beleriand, and English
<inJvstice> I like these since they use the same structure as the appx E
<inJvstice> While giving you all the needed values for each letter
<inJvstice> anyhooo. I tried this last week and discovered that this is not a good medium for teaching Tengwar use…..
<inJvstice> I can’t demonstrate
<inJvstice> so I’ll simply say this….
<inJvstice> that by following the charts with English values, you can translate
<inJvstice> the Title Page inscription
<inJvstice> which in Roman Characters reads….
<inJvstice> “of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the Hobbits”
<jincey> of westmarch?
<jincey> nothing before that?
<inJvstice> this is the bottom of the page
<Alorin> of.. like about
<inJvstice> the top of the page in the Cirith Runes reads “The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book”
inJvstice> (thats the first part of the whole thing)
<Beruthiel> never knew that
<jincey> nice : )
<inJvstice> I’ve not made much study of the Cirith….though appx E also contains translations for the Cirith
<inJvstice> for now there is a tengwar textbook that ban be downloaded from
<inJvstice> this a truely remarkable textbook on how to use the tengwar
<Beruthiel> got it
<inJvstice> also the use of the tethar, which are the diacritic marks above and below the tengwar
<inJvstice> you’ll see these in the title page inscirption.
<inJvstice> these are the vowels
<The_One_Ring> im getting it now
<inJvstice> thats about all I can really do right now on tengwar….
<inJvstice> so I’ll let y’all look at that for the next few weeks or so
<The_One_Ring> i already have this, though, but i haven’t really looked at it.
<inJvstice> At any of our chats if you’ve any questions I’ll be around to answer them
<jincey> folks, y’all head to atlanta for dragoncon labor day weekend…
<inJvstice> it is worth a look see
<jincey> see these folks in person : )
<inJvstice> yes thanx Jincey, I and my compatriots will be there running this in person
<inJvstice> There I’ll be able to give better instructions and to demonstrate the use of the tnegwar
<Beruthiel> wish Atlanta was closer
<inJvstice> until then the text book is a great resorce
<Beruthiel> then Jincey can teach us!
<The_One_Ring> if only i could drive…
<inJvstice> I’m going to attempt a slide show or some other medium to cover this online
<inJvstice> though I might be able to before the DragonCon
<Beruthiel> there’s a workshop at the Toronto Gathering that I’ll be going to
<inJvstice> for now I’m going to turn over to Annatar……
<Annatar> I usually appear in these chats as Annatar
<Annatar> but my name is Paul
<Beruthiel> hi Paul
<Annatar> Sindarin is the area I usually cover,
<Elaran> i lam arth 😉
<Annatar> but I also do a lot of phonology,
<Annatar> or pronunciation, if you will
<Annatar> Sindarin is particularly interesting in that its elements often change their sound
<Annatar> according to what their “job” is in the sentnce
<Annatar> altough this sounds a lot like a “case system” such as you’d have in, say Latin or Russian
<The_One_Ring> im learning quenya right now, but do you suggest also learning sindarian?
<Annatar> it’s not normally described like that
<The_One_Ring> similar to russian. thats good.
<Annatar> I think that it is a good idea to try learning Quenya first
<Annatar> as TORN no doubt knows
<Annatar> there is a good Quenya course at Ardalambion.com
<The_One_Ring> i am using that.
<Annatar> which everyone rightfully refers to as the place you need to go
<Annatar> for Sindarin, http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
<Alorin> Annatar.. there isnt much information about Sindarin phonology around.. and the info that there is, usually speaks of the pronounciation of vowels and letter separately
<Annatar> is the place to go
<Annatar> needless to say, what we know about
<Elaran> as opposed to what Alorin?
<Annatar> Sindarin phonology
<Annatar> is somewhat fragmentary
<Annatar> however, there seems to be ageneral agreement amongst scholars
<Annatar> (one of whom I am not)
<Annatar> as to what Sindarin sounds like
<Annatar> This allowed David Salo to write Sindarin dialogue for PJ’s LOTR movie
<Annatar> although the pronuciation is not always what everyone would like
<Annatar> case in point
<Annatar> in a 2 syllable word
<Annatar> the stress always falls on the 1st syllable
<Annatar> this rule applies to bith Sindarin and Quenya
<Annatar> However, the guide in App.E of LOTR is usually sufficient
<Annatar> as a guide to pronunciation
<Annatar> when you her JRRT reading some of his own poetry
<Annatar> in both Quenya and Sindarin, it is consistent with his written guidelines
<Annatar> next week, I’ll try to do a quick review of the Sindarin verb
<Annatar> and intruduce sound mutations
<Annatar> it’s not really that hard though
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we all know that
<Annatar> I’ll just give you one more online resource
<Annatar> this will link you to a truly KILLER Sindarin dictionary
<Annatar> there is also a Windows app that encapsulates this dictionary
<Annatar> now, to close this session, Kris, aka Gorlab will say a few words about Quenya,
<Gorlab> Hello everybody, this is Kris Nelson here now…
<Gorlab> I deal with the Quenya end of things…
<Beruthiel> hi Kris
<Gorlab> Quenya is, of course the “other” Elvish tongue…
<Gorlab> as opposed to Sindarin…
<Gorlab> In the inner story, Quenya was the language spoken by the three tribes of elves that lived across the sea from Middle-Earth in Aman – land of the Gods….
<Gorlab> Those three tribes were the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri….
<Gorlab> The Noldor spoke what could be viewed as the closest thing to “book” Quenya as you can get…
<Gorlab> The Vanyar spoke a slightly different dialect and there were features of Telerin that could almost be considered a seperate kind of language, but for the most part they all spoke QUENYA…
<Gorlab> When the Noldor left Aman to return back to Middle-earth they brought Quenya with them…
<Gorlab> but not before they slaughtered some of their kin, the Teleri, to do it…
<Gorlab> when this fact was discovered by the Sindarin king Thingol, Quenya was banned in public in the kingdom of the Sindar and became a “book” tongue…
<Gorlab> Quenya survives into the third-age Lord of the Rings era through Galadriel and some of her speeches in Lothlorien…
<Gorlab> Galadriel, of course was one of the Noldorin exiles from way back in the 1rst age and so is one of our only native speakers…
<Gorlab> As for the language itself…
<Gorlab> it resembles Finnish in some aspects….
<Gorlab> because that was one of the languages of Tolkien’s heart…
<Gorlab> one of the languages that he approved of aesthetically…
<Gorlab> and it is the languge of the Kalevala, the finnish mythological epic that inspired a lot of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion…
<jincey> so we could go into #kontu and hear something akin to quenya?
<Gorlab> Yes, something akin to Quenya..
<Gorlab> actually, I met two lovely Finnish skiers who let me assail them with Quenya phrases…
<Gorlab> they remarked about how similar it DID sound…
<Gorlab> Very Good lessons are available on Helge Fauskanger’s site, Ardalambion
<Gorlab> It is his Quenya course.
<The_One_Ring> ok. councilofelrond.com has a sindarian course, but i havnt looked at it yet. have you seen it? do you think it would be any good?
<Gorlab> Helge’s course has lessons, examples, problems, and keys and is very good for beginners, as it shows what we know and what we don’t know about Tolkien’s languages…
<Annatar> I, too am curious about their course
<Annatar> Unfortunately, it conflicts with my schedule
<Elaran> <--- tis my course
<Annatar> However, Sindarin right now is in a fair amount of flux,
<Annatar> and all that we can determine about its stucture and vocabulary
<Annatar> is of use to the general Tolkien linguistic community
<Annatar> up until the movies
<Annatar> much effort was being dedicated towards Quenya
<Annatar> but now with the new movie-based LOTR interest,
<Annatar> there has been a great upsurge on Sindarin interest, and new scholarship as well
<Annatar> that’s it for me, but Gorlab has a few things to say
<Gorlab> So, to wrap things up,
<Gorlab> Next week we are going to hopefully cover some Elvish phrases…
<Gorlab> We have, (for those who have been before) covered pronunciation
<Gorlab> in both Sindarin and Quenya.
<Gorlab> With some detouring into pronouns..
<Gorlab> For those who are new,
<The_One_Ring> what about adjectives?
<Gorlab> it really isn’t that hard to catch up and catch on…
<Beruthiel> I have gone into the acrchives and read the other sessions that are posted there
<Gorlab> We are going to slip in some descriptive terms once we have our objects interacting with our subjects…
<Gorlab> Building this way we can make more and more complex sentences…
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<Gorlab> You all are wonderful people to be here like this and be interested in keeping Tolkien’s spirit alive through exercising his creation..
<jincey> you are wonderful for sharing your knowledge with us : )
<Gorlab> I must go fight Dragons now, so I hope to see you all next week – Namarie!
<jincey> night guys!
<Alorin> Navaer, Gorlab.. Le hannon ‘ni l ‘fb i ‘f3nech ammen!
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Annatar has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
<jincey> thanks for coming y’all 🙂