[Annatar] hello, we’re trying to connect a 2nd machine right now, this is paul, Kris will also be here, but not jeff
[Gorlab] This is Kris again, and I am now Balrog backwards…
[Gorlab] Today’s lesson is full of perilous phonology, dangerous diphthongs, and phunny phrases….stay tuned…
[Gorlab] 8 O’clock….
[Gorlab] The ring of power is no trifle……or truffle…now the ring of Truffle is VERY tasty…
[jincey] mmmmm truffles
[Gorlab] Gandalf is no ordinary wizard, but part of a special group of powers…..like Silent Bob has in Mallrats….
[Annatar] elen sila lumenn’ omentielvo
[[Gorlab] Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo fellow Elvish language lovers!
[Gorlab] Today’s lesson oh fair people, shall cover some of the most basic principles of Elvish, which are instrumental in speaking both Quenya and Sindarin…
[Gorlab] Elvish has a common source.
[Gorlab] It is known as Primitive Elvish (or Primitive Quendian if you like)
[Annatar] fortunately, the Professor (tolkien) used essentially the same rules for “spelling” or transliterating both Sindarin and Quenya
[Gorlab] Exactly – owing to their common source…
[Gorlab] the first idea is that of the letter “c”
[Gorlab] Lots of early Elvish used the letter “K”
[Annatar] Presumably, they were both written in Tenwar in the “source documents” but in differing modes, however, when written in Roman alphabet, the same rules apply
[Gorlab] But the Professor wanted to make Quenya seem a lot more Latinized…
[Gorlab] so he adopted “c”
[Annatar] Tolkien decided that K was “uncouth”
[Gorlab] “c” is ALWAYS pronounced like “k”
[Annatar] unless combines with H
[Annatar] in which case youget the ch of German “ich”
[Gorlab] so, for instance Celeborn (husband of Galadriel) is pronouced “Keleborn”, never “Seleborn”
[Gorlab] Next is “qu”. “Qu” is the preffered spelling, never “q” by itself
[Demcoffee] it took me ages to catch onto the pronunciation sublties in the names
[Gorlab] Only Tolkien’s earliest languages used “q” by itself.
[Gorlab] Next is “X” instead of “ks” as in “Helcaraxe”
[Annatar] However, it is not the Q of “iraq” but pronounced qu
[Gorlab] next is “N”
[Maeglin_Lomion] Pronunciation question: “Fingolfin”…is it Fing(ng as in sing) -ol-fin, or Fin-gol-fin?
[Elaran] is not gandalf from the mannish tongues?
[Gorlab] Gandalf is actually an old Norse word from the icelandic eddas…
[Elaran] indeed, just curious
[Gorlab] I believe he was a dwarf in that story…
[Annatar] I believe that it’s fin-GOL-fin
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you
[Ks] question ?
[Gorlab] Yes?
[Ks] i live in israel.. does the elvish dudes got the het letter?
[Ks] i mean
[Ks] can they say
[Ks] het
[Ks] ç
[Ks] cant say it
[Annatar] pronouced?
[Ks] in english
[Ks] u dont use that sound
[Ks] AT ALL
[Ks] so its hard to pronounce
[Annatar] arabic?
[Ks] hebrew
[Gorlab] you are reffering to the semitic/arabic idea of the sound in the back of the throat?
[Annatar] no, do they use it in arabic?
[Ks] yes they use it in arabic 2
[Gorlab] as in chutzpah?
[Ks] ken
[Ks] yes
[Gorlab] Not exactly…
[Ks] yes
[Ks] the first letter
[Annatar] what context?
[Ks] the first sound
[Ks] of chutzpah
[Ks] chu
[Annatar] that is the ch of evlish approximately
[Ks] okay
[Gorlab] Elves DO pronounce “hy” as an “ich-laut” and “ht” as an “ach-laut”
[Mo] is it kind of like a spitting sound in the back of your throat Ks?
[Gorlab] It’s more of a germanic idea than the hebrew sound…
[Annatar] ich is unvoiced, ach is voiced
[Gorlab] The Elvish is a similar sound, but more in the front of the mouth…
[Annatar] let’s talk about my fave — “dh”
[Annatar] TH in English is pronouced 2 ways
[Gorlab] Ah! DH…found all over Sindarin…
[Annatar] in Elvish TH is voiceless “”thing”
[Annatar] DH is voiced “them”
[Gorlab] not as in “thought”
[Annatar] no
[Maeglin_Lomion] Aredhel – “soft” TH?
[Figgy] as in…?
[Annatar] D was Sometimes used for DH in Tolkiens early writings
[Gorlab] a good word seen in the LOTR movie I believe is Galadhrim…
[Figgy] oooh…cool
[Annatar] but he later smitched to DH for clarity in LOTR
[Annatar] in the 1st Editon of LOTR it’s “Galadrim”
[Elaran] interesting
[Annatar] but he later changed it to “GalaDHrim”
[Gorlab] Try the soft “th” sound followed by the trilled “r”
[Dsthenes] ah, interesting
[Gorlab] it’s a beautiful sound…
[Figgy] it sounds very nice 🙂
[GuestLastar] makes it easier to pronounce
[Annatar] “galad” is “light” “galadh” is tree
[Dsthenes] galathrim?
[Annatar] Galadriel has the “light” element like Gil Galad
[Elaran] Haldir is about the only person to pronounce Galadhrim correctly (in the extended version)
[Annatar] he’s a good elf
[Gorlab] Yes, Elaran!
[Elaran] Gimli mutilates it 😉
[Gorlab] Gimli WOULD though…
[Elaran] sorry to interupt!
[GuestLastar] ah. evil dwarves
[Annatar] GalaDHrim has the “tree” element
[Ks] tree?
[Annatar] tree people
[Elaran] galadh= tree galad = light
[Gorlab] The Galadhrim are the peoples of Lothlorien…
[Gorlab] Of the trees…
[Annatar] A great name with DH is Maedhros form the Silmarillion
[Maeglin_Lomion] That is a beautiful-sounding name.
[Annatar] ’cause, he also has the AE sound
[Gorlab] which brings us to long and short vowels…
[Dsthenes] Now I’m going to have to reform a heap of name pronunciations again. 🙂
[Gorlab] whenever you see a vowel by itself…
[Annatar] it’s difficult to pronounce but it’s like “I” in English
[Gorlab] it is pronounced “short”
[Lefolas] how many times have you guys done all of this? teaching people elvish
[Gorlab] but when you see a vowel with an accent mrk above it…
[2[Gorlab] that vowel becomes long…
[Figgy] example?
[Gorlab] short “A” is pronounced like “Han Solo”. when we first meet him in Star Wars…
[Gorlab] long “A” os pronounced as in “father”
[Figgy] I see
[Indil] so, the circumflex accent always indicates a long vowel?
[Gorlab] Yes…
[Annatar] yes, but it’s also used for visual effect in non-Elven tongues
[Lady_Samwise] hte a in father and in han sound the same though
[Legolas17] ok my question is ok now…. i guess
[Legolas17] the double l, like in ‘mellon’ -friend
[Maeglin_Lomion] So â would be pronounced like the a in “day?”
[Annatar] such as Adunaic and Khuxdul — Dwarvish
[samgamgee7] yea, i got lost on that one too, Lady_Samwise…
[Elaran] they should sound the same, the only difference is the length
[Lady_Samwise] 🙂
[samgamgee7] a lil further clarification on that one?
[Figgy] yeah
[Legolas17] is it not pronounced like in the back of the throat h
[Figgy] their length is different
[Legolas17] ?
[Lady_Samwise] oh IC…
[Figgy] maybe “cat” and “father”
[samgamgee7] ahhh, ok : )
[Gorlab] “Han” is more like “hand” than the “a” in “father”
[Annatar] for the AY in day you need EI
[Indil] I think like the a in man rather than han
[Lia_the_vampire] im a little confused
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you.
[Annatar] Okay from the top
[Gorlab] “man” will do fine…
[Annatar] A is the European “a”
[[Gorlab] short “a” is like “man”
[Gorlab] long “a” is like “Father”
[Elaran] as in british english? or are we refering to other celtic or Norse languages?
[Annatar] “E” is the Euro “E” not the American one
[Annatar] Italian is a good guide to Elvish vowels
[Maeglin_Lomion] Example? I’m American
[CloakedGuest thinks to pronounce the majority of vowels as they would be in Spanish
[Lia_the_vampire] im a vampire
[Gorlab] short “i” is like “pit”
[Annatar] and long is like Pete
[Gorlab] long “i” is like the one in “machine”
[Annatar] O is like “Lore”
[[Gorlab] short “o” is like “box”
[Gorlab] long “o” is like “sore”
[liam] We’re talking Sindarin, right?
[Annatar] but not “Open”
[Annatar] same for Q and S
[Gorlab] these pronunciations are nearly universal for elvish…
[Annatar] Different in Tengwar, Same in the Roman Characters
[liam] Q doesn’t make as much difference between long and short vowels, I understand.
[Annatar] not really, but the spelling in English takes care of that
[hobbit] wut does Falchrist mean?
[hobbit] short i, not long
[Gorlab] Sounds Old english…Annatar?
[Annatar] Coast Cleaver?
[Elaran] it means something on the order of “deep cutting ravine” or possibly “deep cutting cleaver”
[Annatar] Falas — coast, Orcrist Orc -cleaver
[Eressea] Most of the r’s seem to be trilled.
[liam] and hold the second o a little longer.
[Gorlab] actually, the “r’ must be trilled in all positions…
[CloakedGuest] Also, from Old English I believe, the “Gan” part means “to wander” … for I am descended from someone called Ganger.
[Mo] what is a trilled r?
[Eressea] Standard Elvish pronunciation to trill r’s?
[Elaran] tis what gives the language part of its flavor =) Tolkien seemed to dislike the uvelar r that the french use
[Salquendor] from what i understand quenya vowels are like romance language vowels, from the site it seems to be all of my spanish vowels and the quenya vowels match (short form)
[liam] trilled r’s are a bit like Spanish rr
[Annatar] it can be tappped, bur it is never the retoflex R of American English
[Guest1] whats hello in elvish?
[Indil] so the trilled r Ian McKellen uses to say “mordor” in the films is correct?
[[Gorlab] Yes, it is standard, although you don’t have to get excited like Charro on the Love Boat…
[Brandalf85] Hello in elvish is “vendui”
[Brandalf85] well that is “Greetings”
[Guest1] oh thanks
[Gorlab] ABSOLUTELY!!! One of Ian McKellan’s great pronunciations…
[liam] Yes, McKellen gets that dead to rights.
[Annatar] Tolkien said that he believed that Italian Vowels were the closest to Quenya
[Eressea] Who’s excited?
[2[Guest1] how do you prononce it?
[Brandalf85] Ven Doo
[Gorlab] Or, “Aiya!” which means “hail!” or “Greetings!”
[Annatar] The Sindarin Y however seems to be Welsh
[Guest1] cool
[Brandalf85] yes Gor
[Salquendor] annatar, i dont know much italian, but they are close to spanish short vowels correct?
[[Brandalf85] Mckellen got Gandalfs voice from Tolkiens
[Indil] It cstainly sounds more impressive that way 🙂
[liam] the Sindarin Y is like German u-umlat.
[Brandalf85] i have some of tolkien reading on tape
[[Gorlab] Also, the fomal greeting is “Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo”
[Elaran] vendu? would we not see something from the roots _suilanna_ or _suila_?
[Guest1] is namarie goodbye?
[Brandalf85] yes guest
[liam] Say “ee” and then round your lips like you would for saying “o”.
[Brandalf85] actually its “Farewell”
[Annatar] Since Sindarin was modelled on Welsh to a certain degree, this makes sense
[Gorlab] Namarie is indeed “Good-bye”
[Gorlab] from Na, meaning “is”
[Brandalf85] i have a website that gives like a whole list of elvish phrases
[Guest1] whats how are you?
[Gorlab] and “marie” meaning “it is good”
[Elaran] and Navaer is the deduced sindarin counterpart
[Gorlab] correct
[hobbit] namarie means be in good health, if i am correct
[Brandalf85] http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm
[Brandalf85] there
[Elaran] gah no!
[Brandalf85] for elvish phrases
[Gorlab] “be good” would be a possible literal translation for “Namarie”
[Eressea] I was under the impression that Grey Company Elvish was fan-devised.
[Annatar] okay, back to vowels
[Gorlab] I’m sure there are others…
[Annatar] AE and AI are very close
[Elaran] it is Eressea, its devised out of both Sindarin and Quenya for roleplaying purposes
[Elaran] hence my personal distaste for it
[Figgy] how is Eressea pronounced?
[Brandalf85] Eres Say
[Brandalf85] i believe
[[Eressea] Er – ess – ay – ah
[Brandalf85] or not
[Figgy] ah
[Figgy] good
[Eressea] It’s spelled Eressëa with the funny accent on the third ‘e’.
[Elaran] diaresis 😉
[[Annatar] A is the “father” A, I is the sound in “meet” together you get “I” the english pronoun
[Gorlab] With the accent on the “ay” sound…
[Figgy] I’ve been saying it right then
[Eressea] Or as Eresseä if you’re not talking about the island, but the word.
[Gorlab] a diaresis is used to 1:
[Gorlab] Clarify seperate pronunciation of vowels
[Gorlab] 2. for a final “e”
[Annatar] E is the A of “lady”
[Figgy] I see
[Gorlab] or 3 for vowel combinations.
[Eressea] Diaresis is the two-dots thing?
[Annatar] like Spanish Italian etc.
[Gorlab] two dots thingy, yup!
[Annatar] two dots, two sounds
[GuestLastar] oh. what is the pronounciation difference between ë and e
[Gorlab] “au” os pronounced as in “cow”
[Gorlab] Try pronouncing the God “Aule”
[Eressea] GuestLastar, iirc “ë” tends to take on the “ay” sound.
[GuestLastar] thnx
[Indil] Like “owly?
[Brandalf85] lol
[Annatar] We used to call the “dotted” E “Feanorian” it jest means to separate thevowles
[Brandalf85] i always pronounced Aule like “oo lee”
[Gorlab] Ow-leh
[Brandalf85] for some reason
[Gorlab] “eu” is pronounced like the name of the Peter Gabriel album “so”
[CloakedGuest thinks of the word lenguëta in Spanish as an example of how diaresis changes sound similar to what Eressea says
[Eressea] I was doing “Oh – lay” but I suppose, given “S ow – ron”, it should be ow-leh…
[Annatar] diaresis is used the same way that is is in
[[Mo] would eu be like the french word for water then?
[Annatar] French E.G. “noel”
[Annatar] yes
[Gorlab] Sow-rahn, as in “cow-rahn”, Dark Lord of Cattle…
[Eressea] lolol
[Maeglin_Lomion] 🙂 Gorlab
[Gorlab] “iu” is pronounced like “yoo”
[Annatar] in lieu of
[Annatar] for example
[Gorlab] and, the skate-punk’s fave: “oi” is pronounced as in “toy”
[Dsthenes] heh
[GuestLastar] umm… is there a between in meaning betwen, for example, faire and fairë becuz of the ë?
[GuestLastar] *difference
[Annatar] not to my knowlege
[Gorlab] final “e” always recieves the diaresis…
[Gorlab] it really just means that it is always pronounced seperately
[Gorlab] in fact, you almost don’t need it…
[Annatar] speaking of stress . . .
[Annatar] Who here knows how it works?
[Gorlab] Which sylablle gets the “oomph”?
[Mo] is it the middle syllable?
[Elaran] I do
[Elaran] though it is somewhat complex
[Maeglin_Lomion] 2nd out of 4th, if 4 syllables?
[Indil] In Welsh it would be the middle…
[Gorlab] Well, what if you only have on sylablle?
[Eressea] Elvish is inflexive, is it not?
[Elaran] then it falls on the one 😉
[Annatar] basically, if there are more than one syllable, the 2nd or 3rd to last gets it
[Gorlab] Two syllables will ALWAYS be on the first syllable as well…
[Figgy] we got lots of training on stressed syllables in school
[Gorlab] EXCEPT for…
[Gorlab] one word: “Ava”
[Gorlab] it means “Don’t!”
[Eressea] Ava, as in Avatar?
[Indil] or Avari, the refusers?
[Annatar] different language
[Gorlab] In Elvish, Avatar would be “Don’t King”
[Annatar] yes
[Gorlab] Avari! Yes!
[Annatar] no
[Annatar] lol
[Eressea] Perhapts it’s Av-atar, rather than ava-tar, then..
[Maeglin_Lomion] Haldir always seems to be pronounced Hal-DEER. Would that be an exception, or is everyone pronouncing it wrong?
[Elaran] it should be on the first
[Annatar] I think it’s a mistake, and it’s also why he seems a little annoyed
[Indil] lol!
[Elaran] the only time I can think of where one _might_ place it finally would be if the word incorporated a circumflex (possibly to mark it as irregular stress)
[Eressea] So how does one pronounce “Ancalagoth” in terms of stress?
[Annatar] AnCALagoth
[Annatar] not AncalAgoth
[Gorlab] Well, here’s where our idea of long and short vowels comes in handy…
[Annatar] and single and double consonants
[[Eressea] So like Caribbean, then. 🙂
[Gorlab] If a word has 3 or more sylablles…
[Gorlab] many are stressed on the second-to-last sylablle…
[Gorlab] BUT
[Indil] so, MinDOLluin? Instead of MINdolluin?
[Gorlab] if this syllable is SHORT
[Annatar] if the 2nd to last Syllable has a “short” vowel or is separated from the last one by a single consonant, then it’s too “weak to get the stress
[Gorlab] (Sure Oh cloaked one)
[Gorlab] A short syllable is one that
[Annatar] in which case stress moves to the 3rd to last syllable
[CloakedGuest] (thank you Gorlab)
[Gorlab] 1. Contains no long vowel and
[Gorlab] 2 is followed by only one consonant or no consonant at all
[Annatar] in technical terms the 3rd to last syllable is the “antepenultimate”
[Gorlab] If this sylablle is SHORT
[Gorlab] then the 3rd-to-last sylablle gets the stress…
[Eressea] What a word, “antepenultimate”…
[Elaran] lol tis better than antidisestablishmentarianism 😉
[Eressea] Ante-pen-ultimate… that would be before-almost-last, yes?
[Eressea] Hence, third-last.
[Maeglin_Lomion] An example of this? I’m confuzzled……
[Gorlab] Annatar – an example?
[Annatar] ThangorOdrim
[Gorlab] As opposed to..
[Gorlab] ThangORodrim…
[Annatar] DR is bigger separation than G
[Eressea] Then GonDOlin over GONdolin?
[ohtar_i_anar] is there any stress?
[CloakedGuest] In fact, I’ve been saying GondoLIN.
[CloakedGuest] 🙂
[ohtar_i_anar] there is no mark
[Annatar] no, ND vs. L
[Maeglin_Lomion] So have I. 🙂
[Indil] So Mindolluin, above, should really be MidolLUIN?
[Annatar] LL
[Indil] *MindolLUIN
[Annatar] MindOLLuin
[Indil] oh dear. This is very confusing :-0
[ohtar_i_anar] actually, when I say it, I find myself saying gonDOlin
[Annatar] not the boat
[ohtar_i_anar] I know
[Gorlab] This completes my time here in the Hall, thanks for listening…be here next week for more – Annatar might stay a bit…
[Annatar] or, rather like GONDola instead of gondOla
[Eressea] Thanks, Gorlab. 🙂
[Indil] Thank you gorlab. This has been very helpful!
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thanks, Gorlab.
[Annatar] follow the consonants, and when they don’s help. look for accents
[Mo] Thank you Gorlab – cant’ be here usually bacause of work, but i appreciate it
[Pippin] ok, so what form of Elvish are we learning exactly?
[furryfootses] where can i get all the info that i missed since these lessons started
[
[Eressea] On the site, furryfootses, I believe there are logs…
[Annatar] The chat as a whole will try to cover Quenya and Sindarin
[Pippin] ok, cool 🙂
[Annatar] However, they overlap considerably
[Pippin is learning Quenya, but it kinda confuses her as the lesson planner uses big words
[furryfootses] thanks, eressea and annatar
[Annatar] if anyone has any germaine questions please ask, otherwise, my fingers hurt
[Legolas17] how is ll pronounced, as in ‘mellon’?
[Pippin] like a normal l
[Pippin] not like spanish
[Mo] Do you know any examples for long and short E? i’m not familiar with more european styles
Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[Legolas17] i read somewhere that it was pronounced like a harsh h in the back of the throat
[Annatar] thank you every one I’ll see y’all later
[Pippin] somewhere must have been referring to Gandalf’s pronunciation of the word in the Bakshi edition of LOTR
[Indil] Thank you so much Annatar!
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you, Annatar.
[Eressea] Thank you, Annatar. 🙂
[Legolas17] thanks Annatar
[Dsthenes] thanks, Annatar. 🙂
[Mo] Thank you Annatar
[GuestLastar] thnx annatar
[Pippin] thank you Annatar
Lord of the Rings star Miranda Otto is on the brink of international stardom, but that hasn’t stopped her putting love and her personal life ahead of her career. [