Here’s our latest Elvish language lesson, covering pluralization. Thanks Elostrion, for offering these lessons!
*** Log file opened: 2/19/2003 7:02:20 PM
[jincey] ok folks we’re ready to start
[Not_Maedhros] Okay
[jincey] i am going to moderate the room for a bit
[jincey] you won’t be able to speak in the room
[MasterH] Eruner, ma ná sinomë?
[jincey] elostrion will talk, then take questions
[Eruner] nan sinomë
[jincey] if you have any questions for elostrion, PM them to me and i will post them for him to answer
[jincey] ok?
[Eruner] tancave
jincey sets mode: +m
[Elostrion] Before we begin, I will need to clarify a few things.
[Elostrion] First of all, welcome to the third Sindarin Lesson. We will be covering Sindarin Plural Patterns tonight.
[Elostrion] I have prepared a very useful chart that will help you with Sindarin pluralization.
[Elostrion] If you would kindly e-mail me, I will e-mail you a copy of that file.
[Elostrion] For now, there is a temporary chart available at the following URL:
[Elostrion] http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/elvish/
[Elostrion] If you missed previous lessons, there are transcripts available at the following URL:
[Elostrion] http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/index.html
[Elostrion] Keep in mind, ladies and gentlemen, tonight we are covering BASIC pluralization.
[Elostrion] There are very many attested examples in Sindarin.
[Elostrion] And many irregular plural forms…
[Elostrion] For a more detailed analysis of these, please visit:
[Elostrion] http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading11
[Elostrion] Now we shall begin
[Elostrion] Sindarin pluralization is carried out by changing the vowels in that word.
[Elostrion] Sindarin pluralization occurs on any plural noun AND any adjective that modifies that noun.
[Elostrion] The chart that you see very clearly lays out the rules for Sindarin pluralization.
[Elostrion] Here is an example…
[Elostrion] Adan = Man
[Elostrion] If you look on your chart, it says that the Vowel A umlauts (changes) to E in a non-final syllable.
[Elostrion] And the vowel A umlauts to AI in a final syllable.
[Elostrion] So…
[Elostrion] Edain = Men
[Elostrion] If we were to say the…
[Elostrion] Abhorrent men
[Elostrion] abhorrent is an adjective describing a plural noun.
[Elostrion] So we would also need to pluralize it.
[Elostrion] abhorrent = thaur
[Elostrion] If you look on your chart, the diphthong AU umlauts to OE in all positions.
[Elostrion] So “abhorrent men” would be…
[Elostrion] “…edain thoer…”
[Elostrion] If you look on your chart, there are also groups of vowels that change.
[Elostrion] Simply follow the rules on the chart and you will be fine.
[Elostrion] As I said before, I have a much more presentable version of the chart available.
[Elostrion] Please e-mail me at elostrion@hotmail.com to attain it.
[Elostrion] I will take questions now.
[jincey] if you have any questions pm me with them
[Elostrion] If there are not, we shall move onto the next section.
[Elostrion] Class Plurals
[Elostrion] Class pluralization is very irregular.
[Elostrion] We can divide the class plural into two sections…
[Elostrion] The collective and general
[Elostrion] Collective refers to a noun “embracing all things of the same name”
[Elostrion] Such as…
[Elostrion] The host of the stars, would be “elenath”
[Elostrion] To form the collective/group plural we simply add “-ath”
[Elostrion] HOWEVER
[Elostrion] There are many rules that accompany this plural form.
[Elostrion] To access these please visit this URL:
[Elostrion] http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading11
[Elostrion] The next Class Plural is the general form
[Elostrion] The general plural is formed by adding “-rim” (people) or “-hoth” (host)
[Elostrion] So..
[Elostrion] “Nogothrim” is said to be the Class Plural of “Nogoth” (Dwarf)
[Elostrion] “Nogothrim” means the “Dwarf-host/people”
[Elostrion] Are there any questions?
[Elostrion] I will gladly take them now.
[Eruner] what sorts of irregulars are there?
[Elostrion] That depends on whether you are speaking of the Class Plural or Basic Plural
[Elostrion] Class Plural involves several rules…
[Elostrion] For instance…
[Elostrion] When you add “-ath” to a word ending in “-nc” you must change the “-nc” to “-ng”
[Elostrion] For phonological reasons.
[Eruner] and basic plural?
[Elostrion] Basic Plural simply involves several attested examples.
[Elostrion] There are a great many of those.
[Elostrion] Next question please
[Lothenon] On plural of A: what about “narn” ] “nern”? The ‘rule’ of changing to E before consonant clusters?
[Elostrion] Note: All of those can be found at this URL:
[Elostrion] http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading11
[Elostrion] Give me a moment…
[Elostrion] I have just reviewed Helge’s article Sindarin: the Noble Tongue
[Elostrion] It seems that he is arguing amongst himself about this issue…LoL
[Elostrion] There seems to be no final decision.
[Lothenon] -iath is added when there is an “i” in the word. see “minhiriath” [ min sir -ath
[Elostrion] If you will e-mail me Lothenon, I will be happy to answer the question more fully.
[Elostrion] As for the rest of you, I will answer it next Lesson.
[Elostrion] Are there any more questions?
[jincey] oh btw we will open the floor for discussion in a little bit
[Not_Maedhros] What exactly is “host”. Does that mean just a group of Dwarves? Like the Quenya partitive?
[Elostrion] It means the Dwarf-people, as in Americans
[Elostrion] or the English
[Elostrion] Is there another?
[jincey] here is a translation question:
[Strider_The_Ranger] amin ella lle, does that mean ‘i love you’?
[Elostrion] I would be happy to analyze that fully if you will e-mail me Strider
[I_love_Legolas] I was wondering if you have to be realllllly smart to learn Elvish or just have alot of dedication, Elostrion???
[Elostrion] Both of those aspects would help; however, I’ve found all you need is a love for language.
[Elostrion] Is there another?
[JulieOh] Is the only difference between a general and collective plural the question of whether we’re talking about living beings or inanimate things?
[Elostrion] Absolutely not, the Collective Plural can also refer to an organization per-say.
[Gilthoniel] is the general plural mainly for “peoples” and class for objects or does it merely depend on the rules?
[Elostrion] The general is usually only applied to peoples yes
[Herdir] Shouldn’t _elenath_ rather be _elath_? _elen_ is Quenya…
[Elostrion] “Elen” is the plural of “star”
[Elostrion] Next question please.
[Iavas] Can you tell me when you would use -ath verses -hoth?
[jincey] oops hold up
[jincey] back to that last
[Lothenon] no, it´s the archaic form
[Lothenon] poetic
[jincey] ?
[Elostrion] Yes?
[Lothenon] yes, as well as êl can be used for quenya too
[jincey] i am going to open up the floor now, so herdir and Lothenon can talk more easily
[Elostrion] You are correct; however, I believe that “elen” is an attested example of Sindarin pluralization.
[jincey] folks please don’t inundate.. wait your turn ; )
jincey sets mode: -m
[Herdir] Elostrian, how would _êl_ become _elen_ in the plural?
[jincey] and be nice : )
[Elostrion] I believe it is an attested example…
[Herdir] We’ll do 🙂
[Herdir] Where?
[Elostrion] Give me a moment, and I will check…
[Herdir] Okay
[Elostrion] My memory is not so good these days
[Herdir] Okay, I would just like to know so I can make sure it’s valid
[Elostrion] That it is, I was mistaken. It is derived from the Archaic Sindarin “elen”.
[Herdir] I see
[Elostrion] Now, if you will excuse me. I must be going.
[Herdir] Go ahead
[Elostrion] Navaer mellyn nîn!
[Herdir] Namárië
[Not_Maedhros] Navaer, mellon.
[JulieOh] Navaer, Elostrion. Hannon le.
