Hall of Fire chat log: Akallabêth: The Downfall of Numenor
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Akallabêth: The Downfall of Numenor
Session Start: Sun Aug 11 07:32:18 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic this weekend: Akallabeth. The Downfall of Numenor. | General TORn chat thataway! click –> #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we start?
[Silmarien] Yes 🙂
[miriel] breaking the one rule they made
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, kinda
[Jenniearcheo] No trapessin
[miriel] and drowning my whole homeland
[miriel] quite impressive, really
[miriel] oh, and taking advice from the enemy. He was always so very clever, that Ar_Pharazon…
[Xanaseb] very impressive
[Jenniearcheo] No trapessin’. Violaters will be smote.
[Xanaseb] hi Asgard 🙂
[Galaril] i was so glad when they destroyed numenor, ar-pharazon was a d-bag
[Xanaseb] I dunno if I was *glad* about it
[Silmarien] lol :p
[Silmarien] I was not glad that Numenor got destroyed :p But Ar-Pharazon, did get what he deserved :p
[Tajik] Does anyone else read this as Tolkien’s version of the Snake in the Garden?
[Galaril] i was glad the bad numenoreons got theirs
[Galaril] thats very interesting 🙂
[Asgard] Numenor getting destroyed was no good at all ]:(
[Demosthenes] Tajik: If so, it’s not the only time he does it. So there’s limited use in that I think.
[Galaril] i have noticed morgoth and sauron as having traits of lucifer
[Silmarien] I agree
[Demosthenes] Galaril: how so?
[Tajik] Or any other Fallen-angel type character from Norse or Greek mythology
[Galaril] well morgoth was always jealous and hated inferior races
[Demosthenes] Sauron is certainly driven by envy.
[Galaril] and morgoth was always having a tantrum :p
[Demosthenes] Envy of the Numenoreans.
[Tajik] similarly to Ares? Hades?
[Demosthenes] And hatred of what they have? Of their … special status?
[Demosthenes] What do you think?
[miriel] indeed, his envy was a thing… but I think he also feared them
[miriel] they were the ones that could potentially defeat him (and did, only unsuccessfully)
[Silmarien] He did fear them
[Tajik] When the music of the Valar brought life and Illuvatar told that he would soon let his people walk on to it Melkor became filled with hunger for power.
[Xanaseb] I think also envious that they’ve been so successfully powerful and Imperial-like
[Xanaseb] ruling over everywhere practically
[Xanaseb] without problems.
[miriel] melkor was always thinking more about himself than the “greater good”, so to say
[Demosthenes] Xanaseb: that’s very true. Numenoreans go from being educators and … partners, dare I say, in the development of Middle-earth to empire builders and greedy hoarders.
[Silmarien] I think Sauron’s hatred and envy of the Numenoreans is the same kind of envy and hatred that Morgoth had for the Elves
[Demosthenes] They only think of having “moar” in the end.
[Tajik] And Melkor’s jealousy and greed lead to much of the fighting that ensued in ME, as well as the creation of nasty beaings such as Orcs, Goblins, trolls et al.
[Demosthenes] And never wonder if they have enough already.
[Xanaseb] yup Dems
[Xanaseb] Enlightened –] Ruthless Rulers
[Demosthenes] What makes them like this?
[Xanaseb] (and conquerors)
[Demosthenes] Xanaseb: the two do go hand-in-hand.
[miriel] gold-sickness, but on a greater scale, perhaps?
[Silmarien] it’s the old adage “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”
[Vince] Did Melkor create wargs too or are they natural animals groomed by orcs for evil purposes?
[Demosthenes] miriel: possibly! that’s an interesting parallel. Is it similar to what Thorin has?
[miriel] silmarien: wise words
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Demosthenes!
[miriel] I would say it certainly reminds me of it, but in a more human way
[Silmarien] The more they had (and conquered), the more they wanted.. They were never satisfied. It’s the human condition…
[miriel] Darkover 🙂
[Darkover] What is our topic?
[Silmarien] In the end, they even wanted deathless , eternal life
[Darkover] Howdy, miriel!
[Xanaseb] yeah, not like the Dwarves and their gold
[Xanaseb] Darkover hi hi
[miriel] Akallabeth Darkover 🙂
[Tajik] All the characters have human-like traits to allow the reader to associate with them, to some degree
[Demosthenes] Darkover: we are just talking about what drove the change in Numenoreans and made them greedy … for more things, for more life.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[miriel] the more life thing is important
[Vince] and that need came from Melkor, right?
[Darkover] Yes, I agree with Miriel. They seemed to believe they had been cheated, the Elves got the better deal.
[Tajik] mostly, yes…he had a wicked tongue, and a charming demeanour
[miriel] maybe they also were too comfortable in their lives, and had lived too long with no sign of any higher power involved
[idril] Vince: the wargs were probably spawned by Melkor yes
[Darkover] Actually, didn’t that come from Sauron? I thought a Numenorean king took him captive
[Darkover] and Sauron did a wormtongue on him
[miriel] indeed he did, but they changed before that
[Demosthenes] Tajik: That’s true. Yet, as humans, we do experience satiation usually. A point where we are no longer hungry.
[Vince] who was more evil: Sauron or Melkor
[Xanaseb] yep, too much comfort does that, true
[marco] sauron wanted to rule melkor wanted to destroy
[idril] Melkor definitely
[Galaril] melkoe was the source of all evil
[idril] oh hey marco!
[Vince] Melkor just wanted to end everything including himself?
[Xanaseb] sunny 🙂
[marco] ermm hi idril
[Xanaseb] hm, I don’t know, Melkor wanted to destroy that that was ‘good’ per se
[Demosthenes] vince: what Melkor could not possess he wanted to destroy
[miriel] melkor started the evil, so I would say he is more evil
[Demosthenes] We see that in miniature in Sauron
[Xanaseb] or twist that that was good
[Demosthenes] And also in Ar-Pharazon, i think?
[Asgard] sauron wasn’t always evil……
[marco] sauron was a smarter dark lord than melkor
[Tajik] And Sauron only ruled over Mordor
[Vince] why did Sauron turn?
[Xanaseb] Dems summed that well methinks
[miriel] ar pharazon was very evil
[Xanaseb] very very.
[idril] Demosthenes: good point about Ar-Pharazon
[Xanaseb] hi Birdsong
[Demosthenes] Ar-Pharazon was really bad. Totally self-absorbed.
[Demosthenes] Question: why do people not revolt against his rule?
[Tajik] however, Sauron was able to play the “double agent” role for a long time
[Birdsong] hi all and Xanaseb 🙂
[miriel] and he Usurped me!
[idril] lol 🙂
[Vince] Would Middle Earth be so bad under Sauron’s rule?
[miriel] but they did, dems, the faithful fled
[Silmarien] There were those who did not submit…. the Faithful
[Xanaseb] Dems, it reflects the dramatic and widescale changes in Numenorean society
[Tajik] Yes for Elves, Hobbits, Free men, etc
[Vince] List the differences between Middle Earth being ruled by the heirs of Numenor verses Sauron
[miriel] if we count “fleeing” as revolting
[Demosthenes] miriel: MMmm. But they only tried to escape the system. Not to subvert it, or replace it.
[Xanaseb] the majority had become blinded and full of themselves…
[Tajik] No for Orcs, Easterlings, anyone proning scientific and industrial advancements
[miriel] guess they were too few
[Xanaseb] that’s how Tolkien portrays it anyhow
[Xanaseb] that the majority had also turned from the ‘good’ ways
[miriel] very often, if it is not very bad for all and sundry, people tend to turn a blind eye
[Vince] I heard Orcs described as capitalists in a documentary
[Xanaseb] that too, blind eye
[Tajik] Anyone read The Last Ringbearer?
[Tajik] Written by a Russian author (and translated into English)…
[Galaril] i wanna read more about how the 9 were corrupted
[Demosthenes] miriel: Yet Ar-Pharazon ends up with slaves and human sacrifices. What right-thinking person could allow this?
[Tajik] Tells the story of the 3rd Age through the eyes of a lieutenant in Mordor
[miriel] also the “we know what we have, but not what we might get” is very useful to apply in this situation
[Galaril] that stuff fascinates me
[idril] cool Tajik!
[Vince] history is written by the victors, maybe the orcs and Sauron would have just modernized the world earlier than it was
[Silmarien] Demosthenes i think it was like 1940s Germany
[Demosthenes] Does Ar-Pharazon’s ancestry trump his apalling behaviour?
[miriel] those that are more scared of being the slaves and sacrifices themselves, than stopping it!
[Vince] they just wanted industry as far as I can see
[Vince] the “good” guys want monarchy, the “bad” guys want capitalism and industry
[Tajik] and considered everyone else as a backwoods bumpkin
[Demosthenes] Vince: Here we see a monarchy gone bad though.
[Birdsong] omg Tajik.. really interesting
[Demosthenes] Gone mad, even. Totally devoted to its own whims.
[Demosthenes] ‘The days are dark, and there is no hope for Men, for the Faithful are few. Therefore I am minded to try that counsel which our forefather E?ndil took of old, to sail into the West, be there ban or no, and to speak to the Valar, even to Manw?imself, if may be, and beseech his aid ere all is lost.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Would you then betray the King?’ said Elendil. ‘For you know well the charge that they make against us, that we are traitors and spies, and that until this day it has been false.’
[Tajik] Ar-Pharazon was captured and seduced by Sauron….is it, then, right to place all the blame on his shoulders?
[Silmarien] good point Tajik. It was Sauron’s fault too
[Xanaseb] ‘Would you then betray the King’ [- indeed
[Demosthenes] I don’t know. Were the Faithful “duty-bound” to do more in this situation?
[Xanaseb] well, the King in their eyes is illegitimate
[Xanaseb] bardknows, Piefur 🙂
[marco] who is ar-pharazon?
[idril] Ar-Pharazon captured Sauron because he had too much pride in his own abilities and thought he wouldnt be swayed. but u are right, Sauron does play a big part in this
[Demosthenes] ‘If I thought that Manw?eeded such a messenger,’ said Amandil, I would betray the King. For there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause.
[Tajik] King of the Numenor
[Silmarien] Amandil’s loyalty was first to Eru , and then to the king.
[Tajik] true enough, Silmarien
[Xanaseb] yes, basically
[Silmarien] His faith and trust caused him to go on his mission into the West
[idril] good point Silmarien
[Tajik] it is A Man for All Seasons all over again
[Demosthenes] tajik: that’s an interesting parallel
[Vince] Sauron was for science and industry!
[Silmarien] Amandil no longer could trust humanity, but he could still trust his faith
[Demosthenes] Is it *only* Ar-Pharazon’s desire to take what belongs to the Valar, or to break the Ban, that Amandil considers beyond the pale? Is it the worship of Morgoth that he refers to? I’m not sure which, tbh.
[Xanaseb] discussion on betrayal of the King, of the corruption of Numenoreans, and the very awesome Míriel
[Raurenkili] I do believe it is both
[Xanaseb] and Melkor 😛
[idril] i think both
[Borin] The folly of Men’s pride as kindled by our “Lord of gifts”?
[Galaril] i cant remember what happened to amandil
[Silmarien] I think with Amandil and Ar-Pharazon, we have both an example of a man of faith who is loyal to his God, and all that is good.. And one of a man who is devoted to materialism and power
[Tajik] Do the Edain come into this discussion, as they alone fought for the Valar?
[Demosthenes] Amandil sails for Aman, but is never heard of again.
[Galaril] wasnt he just thought to have been destroyed by the flood?
[Silmarien] So we have an example each of theism and humanism.
[Demosthenes] tajik: the Numenoreans are the Edain (or their descendents). But how much does a good deed long ago outweigh a multitude of sins?
[Xanaseb] hm, that’s one interpretation, for sure.
[Silmarien] And Tolkien (being theist) perhaps showing the contrast of where each path leads
[Tajik] ah, yes, thanks for the clarification
[miriel] amandil did not cause the destruction of numenor….
[miriel] so did he reach aman?
[Xanaseb] of course not
[Demosthenes] miriel: we don’t know.
[Raurenkili] who is Amandil?
[Demosthenes] It is said that Amandil set sail in a small ship at night, and steered first eastward, and then went about and passed into the west. And he took with him three servants, dear to his heart, and never again were they heard of by word or sign in this world, nor is there any tale or guess of their fate.
[Xanaseb] it’s probably not relevant
[Borin] A very biblical tale indeed. False idols. Pride. Divine wroth.
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: the father of Elendil the Tall.
[Xanaseb] whether he did or didn’t
[idril] Amandil is the father of Elendil
[Borin] Golden roofs and burnt offerings
[Raurenkili] oh… now I remeber
[Raurenkili] yes indeed
[Raurenkili] and Sauron in the midst of the temple
[Borin] Also a reminder for me to read the Akallabeth once more…
[miriel] it is a good read 🙂
[idril] but sad. tho not as sad as Narn-i-Hin Hurin
[Borin] One of those great “background” titbits for those who want further than LOTR. An excellent starter by all accounts,
[Demosthenes] I also find it interesting that the Numenoreans believe that it is some property of Valinor itself that bestows immortality.
[Demosthenes] Not something inherent in the elves.
[Raurenkili] which is not true
[Borin] A seed planted by Sauron? Or did it come from their own hubric thoughts?
[Xanaseb] idril, very true
[Raurenkili] although the slimarillion does refer to it as the “deathless shores”
[Demosthenes] As the elves attempt to explain to one of the earlier Numenorean kings.
[Tajik] “though their years were long and no sickness fell upon them”…did htis lead to a false hope on their behalf?
[Raurenkili] yes, indeed
[Spaldron] I really need to read the Silmarillion again. I’ve forgotten most of the details of Akallabeth 🙁
[Raurenkili] got halfway through for the second time today
[Raurenkili] on Akkalabeth
[Demosthenes] tajik: do you think they do have false hope based on what they have in Numenor?
[Silmarien] But the farther the Numenoreans strayed from the worship of Eru and the Valar, the shorter their lives became. But the time of the Akallabeth, there’s a lot of sickness
[Demosthenes] Is life not enough of a struggle for them?
[Tajik] If Numenor is great, than does it not stand to reason that the Undying Lands are greater?
[Silmarien] And in his pride, Ar-Pharazon saw Aman as yet another land to be conquered.. the prize, perhaps, in his mind
[Demosthenes] It actually does seem that’s why they initially go back to Middle-earth.
[idril] Lots of envy going on… Ar-Pharazon obviously envied the elves, and they were banned from Numenor, so he definitely wanted what they had: pretty much immortality. Which he thought Valinor had
[Demosthenes] Basically, they’re bored.
[Xanaseb] hi Rosgobelrabbit and Beutlin
[Borin] Clarification please:How much dealing had the Numenoreans had with the people of Middle-Earth at the time of Ar-Pharazon?
[Xanaseb] very much so Borin
[Demosthenes] borin: centuries.
[Xanaseb] Imperial rule, and trade too
[Tajik] I find it interesting that DEATH was a gift to men from Illuvatar
[ElenGalad] What do you get for the men that have everything…sort of?
[Raurenkili] ……For it is not the land of Manwe that makes it’s people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell theirin have hallowed the land….
[Borin] Ahh. A superiority complex then?
[idril] oh shoot i have to go… bye all 🙁
[Silmarien] They were colonizing Middle Earth already long before the time of Tar-Aldarion
[Borin] Well met Beutlin 🙂
[Demosthenes] These things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan the Shipbuilder, and of Tar-Atanamir his son; and they were proud men, eager for wealth, and they laid the men of Middle-earth under tribute, taking now rather than giving.
[Borin] Bye bye idril
[Xanaseb] sounds rather British Empire 😛 😛
[miriel] must have been pretty bad for the people on the mainland
[Demosthenes] and this:
[Demosthenes] Thus it came to pass in that time that the Numenoreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied.
[Borin] About to say a self-same thing Xanaseb 😀
[Demosthenes] Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers.
[Xanaseb] lolol Borin 😉
[Demosthenes] And the great ships of the Numenoreans were borne east on the winds and returned ever laden, and the power and majesty of their kings were increased; and they drank and they feasted and they clad themselves in silver and gold.
[miriel] especially those that had moved to the shores since they got an advantage in past ages
[Silmarien] Eventually, Middle Earth was not enough for them, and they had to have the West as well
[Raurenkili] It was a gift, because the Elves and Valar after “10 thousand centuries” would indeed grow weary of the world, and their ancient bodys, and wish for death in the end
[Borin] Since the West was denied…
[Tajik] Decadence of the Roman Empire?
[Silmarien] Demosthenes when i read that description, i think of Rome
[Xanaseb] and the laden with gold and silver…. SO Spanish Empire 16th-]18thCenturies
[Silmarien] Tajik, yes
[Beutlin] There are similarites between the British Empire and Numenor. One might also compare the Numenoreans to the ancient Greeks or the Phonecians.
[Borin] They wanted but could not have. The wanting is present.
[Xanaseb] just to lay some historical parallels
[Demosthenes] Silmarien: Numenor is a bit like Rome? Changing from Republic to Empire? (Principate)
[Xanaseb] yeah, lots of paralells to be found Beutlin.
[Darkover] There are similarities between the Numenoreans and any decaying empire, but I don’t think Tolkien had any specific one in mind, did he?
[Demosthenes] Jennie: what do you think there?
[Jenniearcheo] That Britain survived
[Xanaseb] Darkover, yeah, you’re right probs
[Tajik] No, prolly not
[Silmarien] I think by the time of Ar-Pharazon, they had become more like the Roman Empire, yes
[Raurenkili] no, just mythological parralels
[Beutlin] @Demosthenes: When was Numenor a republic?
[Xanaseb] Atlantean maybe 😛 ]_] 😉
[Jenniearcheo] At least they didn’t have to rely on their colonies
[Borin] Decadence is a theme heavily draped in similar tones of corruption, pride, falls.
[Jenniearcheo] (Sorry, making husband birthday enchiladas.)
[Tajik] and a reason to celebrate the greatness of GB
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: well, the Roman republic is nothing like a modern one.
[Xanaseb] never was a republic, that’s true, but it wasn’t very democratic believe me 😉
[Darkover] Didn’t they, Jennie? Didn’t Tolkien mention that the Numenoreans began founding colonies, and exploiting others?
[Demosthenes] It was more an oligarchy.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant the homeland
[Jenniearcheo] in the end
[Tajik] after all, ME was Tolkien’s search to create a mythology for the English people, was it not?
[Borin] What of Biblical cities that fell?
[Borin] Keeping to a theistic view.
[Darkover] Yes, the Valar destroyed Numenor, like Sodom and Gomorrah
[Raurenkili] ….for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope…..
[Xanaseb] welcome, lost10
[Silmarien] I have thought of Sodom and Gomorrah myself
[Raurenkili] yes Tajiik
[Silmarien] And when Elendil and his ships leave and survive.. it’s like Lot and his family
[Tajik] with its tower and attempt to join God?
[Xanaseb] that’s more hedonism
[Xanaseb] not power
[Raurenkili] yes Silmarien
[Beutlin] The late Roman republic is often labelled an oligarchy, for sure. But there was always a king in Numenor, beginning with Elros. And for the Romans a republic meant first and foremost not having a king.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay. They’re baking
[Darkover] True, Beutlin
[Borin] Noah-like floods. The fall of the Godless throughout the Pentateuch.
[Darkover] Well done, Jennie. Hope your husband enjoys your efforts
[Jenniearcheo] Chicken and breakfast sausage. Mmmm
[Darkover] Yeah, when you have to start over, nothing like a good flood, I guess
[Raurenkili] Meneltarma was a valid holy mountain, created by the Valar (or Eru I cant remember) it was not a vain attempt
[Silmarien] Xanaseb i do think the Numenoreans had become hedonistic, by the time of Ar-Pharazon
[Xanaseb] I suppose so Sil.
[miriel] makes for a very dramatic death-scene at least, Darkover 😀
[Darkover] And they engaged in human sacrifice, to Sauron, as I recall. Has that been mentioned yet?
[Demosthenes] That’s true. that’s why Julius Caesar was knifed. Dictator perpetuo is not that far from “King”
[Darkover] Quite so, Miriel
[Xanaseb] ah, yes, the sacrifice
[Silmarien] And also very decadent, spoiled and under the influence of the enemy
[Tajik] Et tu, Brutus?
[Xanaseb] but it’s more sadism then hehe
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Borin] Au revoir Raurenkili
[Raurenkili] Bye all!
[miriel] bye Raurenkili
[Demosthenes] Tajik: probably decimum brutus not marcus brutus.
[Tajik] heh heh
[Raurenkili] see y’all tomorrow
[Beutlin] I am not too sure about calling the Numenoreans decadent or hedonistic. They defied the gods yes, but I think Tolkien never described them having orgies, sleeping with their next of kin and the usual stuff when you think of decadence.
[Raurenkili] any questions before I leave?
[Jenniearcheo] Wwwelll . . . there were “king’s men” and reasonable guys, right?
[Tajik] Tolkien doesn’t describe ANYONE doing that.
[Raurenkili] they didn’t go that far
[Demosthenes] Darkover: we have talked a bit about the human sacrifice bit. mostly as a reason why the faithful ought to have toppled the King.
[Darkover] More hubris than hedonism, I think, to describe the Numenoreans
[Tajik] Zeppelin are the ones who got into the orgies in ME
[Silmarien] Beutlin, i dont think Tolkien would have written that. But their culture in the end almost suggests decadence of all kinds.
[Silmarien] Nothihng was enough for them anymore
[Borin] Human sacrifice contains naught but associations with occult dealings, a very ugly side to human faith. We look with horror at the Mayan practices, children slaughtered for their gods.
[Darkover] Right! If human sacrifice isn’t a reason for revolt, than what is?
[miriel] dems: like I said before, they were afraid to speak up since if they did *they* might be the next sacrifice
[Tajik] just watched The Wicker Man yesterday, while we’re on the topic of sacrifices
[Jenniearcheo] That’s probably not what took those cultures out, though
[Darkover] It seems as if nothing was sacred to them any longer, either
[Silmarien] And those they chose for the sacrifices were among the Faithful (for treason). Christians to the lions, anyone?
[Xanaseb] true, they would be swallowed up quickly by the corrupted..
[Demosthenes] Darkover: they abandon Meneltarma. It’s interesting that sauron is afraid (is that the right word?) to go there though.
[Beutlin] @Silmarien: Didn’t Tolkien create a story about the elves who believed that the sun was raped by Melkor?
[Jenniearcheo] There probably wasn’t much Christians-to-lions sacrifice, in reality. It’s mostly early Christian hype
[Borin] Not just lions Silmarien. Christians thrown to the fires.
[Darkover] Miriel, I realize it is easy enough for me to say this, never having been forced into such a position, but I find it hard to have much patience with the argument of “I didn’t do the right thing because I was scared.”
[miriel] if someone “has” to be sacrificed, it makes sense to start with the people opposing
[Birdsong] in many of those cultures being sacrificed was truly a great honor
[Silmarien] Just making an analogy, Jenniearcheo. Myth to myth.
[Darkover] I mean, it is easy enough to do the right thing when there is no risk, wouldn’t you say?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: But at what point have you nothing left to lose?
[Borin] Today marks the feast day of St Lawrence in the Church calendar. Martyred during the persecution of Valerian, roasted alive on a hot gridiron.
[Darkover] Yeah, Birdsong, that was the official line, anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, we’ve found traces of sedative drugs in sacrifice victims. Both in Peru and the UK
[miriel] I am not saying it justifies keeping quiet, Darkover, but it *explains* why they did
[Beutlin] @Borin: Turn me over!
[Darkover] I personally don’t think decent people should let it reach that point, Demosthenes
[Birdsong] well, that’s just the power of faith. im not saying it was true in all cases but we shouldnt judge completly by our own biases
[Darkover] Okay, miriel, I see your point
[Demosthenes] Also, the Faithful seem to feel bound by loyalty to those above even when they do revolting things.
[Tajik] watch The Wicker Man (1970’s version with C.Lee)
[miriel] good point, dems
[Jenniearcheo] that’s a weird flick
[Jenniearcheo] My copy lives in a wooden box. Quite nice
[Darkover] But a good one. And those people in the Wicker Man didn’t even have the excuse of being scared.
[Xanaseb] yes… loyalty (almost) to the end
[Xanaseb] honour and loyalty
[Tajik] they were simply worried about their crops
[Beutlin] Not the bees!!!
[Darkover] Oh, well, Tajik, I guess that excuses human sacrifice, then!
[Xanaseb] ó.ó ..
[Jenniearcheo] That excuses the people going along with it. Not the leaders’ fear
[Tajik] which they were trying to grow regardless of their fruit not being indigenous to their island
[Jenniearcheo] which drove them to the idea
[miriel] like jennie said
[Beutlin] I would burn Nic Cage too, just sayin…
[Demosthenes] Do you think Amandil’s … let call it a sacrifice … is what saves the remainder of the Faithful?
[miriel] the people most at fault are the ones that started it, but the ones that follow along are certainly not blameless
[Tajik] Anyhoo, it’s been a slice, but GTG too
[Xanaseb] ciao Tajik.
[Jenniearcheo] Most of those cultures fell not because people were outraged over sacrifice, but because the leaders couldn’t, in the end, control the droughts like they claimed.
[Borin] But going back to what we as readers would see, clearly Tolkien wanted to fully portray how low the Numenorean peoples in power had reached. Pagan images (Wickerman-esque) directly in contrast to the theistic “faithful” that remained true.
[Darkover] Right, Miriel
[Xanaseb] perhaps Dems, perhaps… but I think their faithfullness in general would have saved them anyhow
[Xanaseb] good ol’ Ulmo, and all 😉
[Demosthenes] But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manw?earkened to his prayer, by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day.
[Xanaseb] (no evidence for it, but just an opinion ;))
[Borin] Salvation for the faithful.
[Beutlin] I always found it interesting that a woman could become ruler of Numenor. Although, if I remember correctly, none of them were truly powerful figures.
[miriel] I felt like amandil was a bit of a failed try. One of those almost-heroes that did not succeed, even if they did the right thing and were brave
[Xanaseb] yep Dems
[Darkover] Right. And regardless of what the reason is for the sacrifice, or who is being sacrificed–i.e., even if it someone you personally won’t miss, if your leaders are advocating that, time either to revolt, or get outta Dodge
[Xanaseb] true miri
[Darkover] Either way, don’t be a party to it, or you must share in at least some of the guilt
[Xanaseb] or maybe more of an unsung / unkown hero.. as we’ll never know the full story there
[miriel] mhm, but it IS very hard to get out of such a thing, Darkover
[Borin] I always enjoy Tolkien’s “maybe it happened, maybe not” statements. Provides exactly what we see here in rich discussion.
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: Tar-Ancalime seems to have been the “greatest” of the ruling queens. the most forceful, anyway.
[Demosthenes] as an aside.
[miriel] to move from homeland, friends, family
[Darkover] Didn’t say it was easy, Mirel, but doing the right thing seldom is
[Silmarien] I would agree about Tar-Ancalime
[Beutlin] Thanks Demosthenes – will look it up
[Xanaseb] hard thing *logistically*
[Demosthenes] There’s also this:
[Demosthenes] For Elendil had remained in Romenna, refusing the summons of the King when he set forth to war; and avoiding the soldiers of Sauron that came to seize him and drag him to the fires of the Temple, he went aboard his ship and stood off from the shore, waiting on the time.
[Xanaseb] if you think about the practicalities of leaving
[miriel] into a country where people are probably not liking you cause of the bad guys in the previous community
[Xanaseb] if they left, then the corrupted dudes would chase them and kill them likely
[Demosthenes] Even at the height of Numenorean power, the King’s men do not seem to be … all-powerful.
[miriel] not impossible, but difficult
[Xanaseb] true Dems
[miriel] and in the end, the faithful *did* leave
[Silmarien] Typical, they only think they are. Like certain groups in every culture.. they only have the loudest voices. But perhaps there is a silent majority
[Borin] Fallen men. But just that: men.
[Xanaseb] yep… but riiiight at the end basically
[Darkover] Right. Not a minute too soon
[miriel] in the eleventh hour, but still they left
[Xanaseb] barely escaped
[Xanaseb] some of their ships got destroyed I seem to remember? or did they *all* survive?
[Borin] Sauron’s in control now of course. The soldiers belong to Sauron and not to the King.
[ElenGalad] It was no easy boat trip…their escape
[Xanaseb] hi AMDonahue
[miriel] they all survived, I think
[miriel] but they got off course
[Demosthenes] But when the devouring wave rolled over the land and N?r toppled to its fall, then he would have been overwhelmed and would have deemed it the lesser grief to perish, for no wrench of death could be more bitter than the loss and agony of that day; but the great wind took him, wilder than any wind that
[Demosthenes] Men had known, roaring from the west, and it swept his ships far away; and it rent their sails and snapped their masts, hunting the unhappy men like straws upon the water.
[Jenniearcheo] A three hour tour . . .
[miriel] hello AMDonahue
[AMDonahue] Hello, what are you all discussing? Not to be terribly nosey.
[miriel] we are discussing akallabeth 🙂
[Darkover] didn’t one person, Elendil’s father, I think, try to seek out the Valar for help? He tried going to Valinor, I think, and was never seen again. I got the impression the Valar smote him or something for disobedience.
[miriel] the fall of Numenor
[Xanaseb] like straws upon the water, nice.
[Beutlin] So it was a Tsunami that drowned Numenor?
[miriel] we are almost at the fall now
[Demosthenes] AMDonahue: our topic today is the Dwonfall of Numenor. We are currently talking about the escape of the Faithful form the wrath of the Valar.
[Xanaseb] Darkover, ‘Amandil’
[Borin] The Fall of Numenor. Crunch time has just been quoted 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] See? With the smiting?
[AMDonahue] thanks, sorry to jump in. 🙂
[miriel] Darkover amandil?
[Darkover] That is what it always sounded like to me, Beutlin
[Darkover] Thank you, Xanaseb and Miriel
[Xanaseb] Beutlin, plus crazy apocalyptic doom stuff 😉
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: part massive earthquake, part tsunami.
[Borin] Very Homeric storm…
[miriel] the country did sink as well
[Beutlin] Just like that flic “2012”
[Darkover] I guess the Valar can be efficient at destruction when they want to be. Too bad they aren’t as good at controlling Melkor.
[Silmarien] Darkover: I doubt the Valar smote Amandil for disobedience. He was a believer and Faithful and was doing his part for humanity. I’m sure he was forgiven.
[Beutlin] So is John Cusack Elendil?
[miriel] two big earthquakes: one to start the tsunami (and eat up the armada) and one to sink Numenor
[Darkover] Oh yes, Silmarien? then how come no one knows what happened to him?
[miriel] I have a feeling he never reached aman
[Jenniearcheo] Beutlin: So California is next on the list to crack off and fall in the ocean?
[Jenniearcheo] Nobody suspects the Valar any more
[miriel] were there not some small islands on the way, where people could sleep for eternity
[Silmarien] Amandil had not turned his back on Eru and the Valar
[miriel] or was that earlier?
[Xanaseb] for a tsunami to sink an island is pretty crazy. The island itself must have slipped tectonically too 😛 :P… but this is way too pedantic IMO
[Beutlin] @Jenniearcheo: True that!
[Demosthenes] miriel: what of the fate of the Numenorean armada, and Ar-Pharazon’s armies?
[Silmarien] They spared his family
[miriel] Xanaseb: see my thought above
[Darkover] The Valar clearly already were ticked at the Numenoreans. I doubt if they were in a forgiving mood, regardless of how desperate Amandil’s need was.
[Borin] Ahhh shoot. Low battery and no charger to be seen- well, it IS midnight so perhaps I better move off anyway. A good one this evening all, bye for now!
[Xanaseb] hm, indeed miri..
[Darkover] goodnight, Borin
[Jenniearcheo] Night Borin
[miriel] the armies were definitely drowned, IMO
[Silmarien] I always felt Amandil did reach Aman, or perhaps near Aman. His name means “Devoted to Aman” after all, and Tolkien didnt name his characters lightly
[Demosthenes] Silmarien: Eressea, maybe?
[miriel] very good point Silmarien
[Jenniearcheo] So, there was more geographical rearrangement at this time? A spherification?
[Darkover] Maybe once he got to the undying lands, they felt they couldn’t allow him to return to mortal Men
[Silmarien] Perhaps Eressea, thats a good thought
[Xanaseb] they definitely didn’t survive to wreak havoc later, so I’d say they vanished the armies
[Xanaseb] Jennie, indeed
[miriel] the sphere was the result, I think
[Beutlin] @Xanaseb: I once heard that story about an island close to Northwestern Africa which could split in half in the future, causing one half of the island crashing into the Atlantic Ocean and creating a gigantic tsunami heading for the Americas.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Valinor is somehow removed from the world.
[Xanaseb] wowz interesting.
[Demosthenes] It’s there but not there.
[miriel] it is tenerife, I think
[Darkover] like Atlantis
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Like Atlantadoon
[miriel] have quite forgotten the name of the volcano…. teide?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yeah, in fact Tolkien uses the word Atalante at one point.
[Darkover] thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallab? the Downfallen, Atalant?n the Eldarin tongue.
[Darkover] I believe Tolkien also based the destruction of Numenor on a recurring dream he had
[Demosthenes] He did? I did not know that.
[Silmarien] Yes, the dream of the wave
[miriel] yes: Beutlin, Tenerife and Teide
[Xanaseb] yup miri, Teide! 🙂
[Demosthenes] A Hokusai wave?
[Darkover] Yes, of an island disappearing beneath a massive wave
[Beutlin] @miriel: According to Wikipedia it’s La Palma
[miriel] oh, interesting
[Silmarien] His dream included seeing green hills and fields, a beautiful and fertile land, being swallowed by a great wave that loomed above in the sky
[miriel] oh yes indeed, confused the islands
[Darkover] That would be scary. Imagine what Stephen King could do with a dream like that.
[miriel] still one of the canary islands 😉
[Beutlin] @miriel: True that.
[Demosthenes] That is interesting. The germ of an idea … and here we have a full-blown recreation of the Atlantis myth as a result.
[Darkover] Is it just me, or do you think the Valar punished the Numenoreans more harshly than they ever did the Elves? And if you think so, do you believe the Valar were right to do so?
[miriel] they …did.. in a way
[miriel] killing them off
[Demosthenes] Well, it’s Eru that does it. Not the Valar.
[miriel] but then again, you have to remember, they were mortal
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure the Valar are very smart sometimes tho
[Darkover] Eru sent the wave?
[Silmarien] I think it has to do with Mens’ nature, and the nature of their disobedience
[Silmarien] Another adage comes to mind “let the punishment fit the crime”
[Darkover] Miriel, yes, that occurred to me. Because Men are mortal, does that mean the Valar had the attitude, “oh well, more where they came from?”
[Jenniearcheo] Sometimes they need a good smiting to keep them on the straight and narrow.
[miriel] killing the eldar would have meant killing them very very much earlier than they would have naturally gone to mandos
[Demosthenes] Then Manw?pon the Mountain called upon Il?r, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Il?r showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between N?r and the Deathless Lands
[Xanaseb] interesting point about favouring the elves Darkover. I’m not sure, it’s hard to say
[Demosthenes] and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the N?reans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever.
[Xanaseb] the Elves suffered greatly, no doubt
[Demosthenes] I think that means it’s Eru, not the Valar.
[Xanaseb] in many ways, much more than any of the humans
[Demosthenes] Am i incorrect?
[Darkover] It could be a matter of interpretation, and the Elves didn’t get off scot-free. But it seems to me the Valar were harder on the Numenoreans.
[Silmarien] The Valar stood out of the way of Eru, and basically, allowed God’s Will. A sovereign deity would be a concept dear to Tolkien’s heart
[Darkover] You’re probably right, Demosthenes. You usually are. 🙂
[Demosthenes] I agree that elves probably get an easier ride.
[Jenniearcheo] Without Puma or Christine here to correct you, I call you right.
[Darkover] I mean, the Elves weren’t engaging in human (elvish?) sacrifice, but they did engage in Kinslaying
[miriel] time to sleep 🙂 night all!
[Demosthenes] Though being stuck in Mandos’s halls for half of eternity is probably dull dull dull.
[Jenniearcheo] night miriel
[Darkover] and all for jewels. Things!
[Beutlin] I think I once read that Eru only twice intervened in the affairs of his creation…the destruction of Numenor and the resurrection of Gandalf.
[Darkover] bye, miriel, and goodnight!
[Xanaseb] nighty night miri 🙂
[Xanaseb] I’ll be off too 😛
[Jenniearcheo] Night Seb
[Silmarien] Darkover: yes, things. Materialism and greed. And pride. Basically, the same sins of Morgoth that got our Numenoreans into such trouble
[Jenniearcheo] My enchiladas are done, too. I’m off to eat the birthday dinner. Ta
[Darkover] Maybe, Demosthenes, but as I understand it, a soul/fea can move on when he or she is ready. And I don’t believe Elves feel time’s passage the way humans do.
[Darkover] night, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: Eru seems to provide some sort of instruction regarding the fate of the per-edhil as well.
[Darkover] bye, Jennie, Enjoy!
[Demosthenes] Oh, and the Dwarves.
[Demosthenes] But I would agree that Eru sticks an oar in only rarely.
[Demosthenes] But that oar is pretty big.
[Darkover] Also, in the case of the Numenoreans and their punishment, I have the same problem I have with Adam and Eve. The Elves, like Adam, got their info and restrictions right from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, if that isn’t too irreverent. Eve/the Secondborn, Men, did not
[Silmarien] Interesting, Darkover
[Darkover] Eve and Men both had to get their info on what was acceptable/allowed, and what was not, secondhand
[Demosthenes] Darkover: And Sauron kinda gets away with it.
[Silmarien] The Adam and Eve story would be important to Tolkien as well
[Darkover] So when they mess up, are they as completely to blame as Adam/the Firstborn? Just a thought
[Darkover] thank you, Silmarien
[Beutlin] @Demosthenes: The author of the German encyclopedia of Middle-Earth pretty much said that Eru’s lack of interventionism distinguishes him from the God of the Abrahamic religions.
[Darkover] Yes, and Sauron doesn’t get punished any too soon, either
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: something about free will goes here?
[Silmarien] The Valar basically were in control. But when they stood back and let Eru have his way…. That’s huge.
[Beutlin] @Demosthenes: Yes.
[Silmarien] Definitely a special occasion
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i do think that, although the Numenoreans are remarkably selfish, they wouldn’t have started worshipping Morgoth and sacrifcing people without Sauron. And, frankly, Sauron is probably a bridge too far for them to handle. It’s mission impossible — like with the elves of Eregion. He’s too clever for them both.
[Darkover] Right. So if the Valar were going to meddle, couldn’t they have helped out a bit prior to that? At least, something along the lines of “Don’t trush the Lord of Gifts?”
[Demosthenes] Arguably the situation is unfair. Perhaps the Valar should have sent more messengers.
[Demosthenes] Or visited.
[Darkover] Maybe it wouldn’t have helped, but it seems the Valar could have tried a bit harder.
[Demosthenes] But maybe that’s the free will thng again?
[Darkover] The Numenoreans made major mistakes and performed major wickedness, sure. But they had less information to go on.
[Darkover] yes, it probably is about free will, in the end.
[Beutlin] Due to the fact that we no only so little about the Second Age, it raises a lot of questions.
[Darkover] As a Catholic, free will was very important to Tolkien
[Silmarien] The Valar did send warnings, though… Men slain by lightning on the hills, ships capsizing at sea (which never before happened), and the Eagles of Manwe showing up in the sunset….
[Demosthenes] Yes they did.
[Demosthenes] And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharaz??ounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss.
[Silmarien] And these warnings were only heeded by the Faithful… Elendil and his sons knew it was time…
[Demosthenes] Sauron kinda gets a dishing of just desserts too.
[Silmarien] Oh yes, he does.
[Darkover] Good. Nobody deserves it more.
[Darkover] Unless maybe it is Melkor
[Demosthenes] How much of Eru’s “wrath” is aimed at Sauron, how much at Numenor?
[Silmarien] Like Melkor before him he was banished, and lost his form
[Silmarien] good question, Demosthenes
[Darkover] I admit I hadn’t thought of that point, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s to save the Faithful. It allows them to rebuild with arnor and Gondor.
[Demosthenes] Without Sauron around for quite a while.
[Silmarien] And this is why i think Amandil got his message across
[Darkover] Maybe that is why Eru got involved. As you said earlier, the Numenoreans were outmatched by Sauron. He was just too far out of their league.
[Silmarien] His family and people were spared
[Silmarien] They made it to safety and prospered in the new land
[Silmarien] Perhaps they were driven from “Eden” , but they survived, and started over
[Demosthenes] But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.
[Darkover] You are probably right in your suggestions, Demosthenes. After all, Eru would see the big picture more than anyone.
[Beutlin] @Demosthenes: I would argue that Eru’s wrath was solely aimed at the Numenoreans.
[Demosthenes] Also, Sauron is forever after revealed as a figure of malice.
[Darkover] What does it take to kill Sauron, anyway? Silver bullets and a wooden stake?
[Demosthenes] There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-d?nd dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.
[Darkover] LIke a lot of evil beings, he brought about his own downfall. If he hadn’t made the One Ring, would he ever have been destroyed? Or sent from this plane?
[Silmarien] And at the Last Alliance, Elendil took his revenge on Sauron. Remember he would often look in the Elostirion stone to Numenor in the past
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I’m not sure. That’s one of the problems with semi-divine beings.
[Demosthenes] They kinda defy easy categorisation of properties.
[Silmarien] How Elendil must have missed his home, especially understanding the greater picture as he must have, we cant begin to imagine
[Demosthenes] ‘All roads are now bent.’
[Darkover] Probably not, but he and his sons were still alive, as well as a remnant of the Faithful, That may have been some consolation.
[Silmarien] Though Elendil perished fighting Sauron as Fingolfin did fighting Morgoth. Again.. paralells between Men and Elves..
[Darkover] Good wins battles against evil, it doesn’t win the war. Not until the world ends/is remade.
[Darkover] And *then* good will triumph, presumably for all time.
[Silmarien] And it is the Faithful, who continue on into the next Ages… Perhaps this was Eru’s way of putting the royal family back to its rightful place, in the end
[Demosthenes] Darkover: which brings me to another point. the armies of ar-phrazon are supposedly locked away until “the final battle” … but who will they fight for?
[Silmarien] Because it was the House of Andunie that carries on as kings of Arnor and Gondor
[Demosthenes] (sounds a bit Arthurian, actually)
[Beutlin] Isn’t Sauron defeated in his fight against Elendil and Gil-Galad? It’s not like in the first film where Isildur cuts the ring off Sauron’s hand and he’s a gonner?
[Darkover] Hmm…maybe then they will have to make a final choice. And it does sound like something from the King Arthur myth.
[Darkover] He couldn’t have been completely defeated, Beutlin, because Sauron came back. Took a long time, in mortal terms, but he still returned.
[Silmarien] Sauron always returns because he is a spirit
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: I think that I saw a Michael Martinez article once speculating that Elendil and Gil-galad pretty much subdued Sauron but died in the process and Isildur kinda did the coup de grace.
[Darkover] Yes, not mortal. And presumably he isn’t dead even now, probably keeping his boss Melkor company in the Void somewhere.
[Demosthenes] But I think it was mostly speculation. And not a huge amount of evidence.
[Beutlin] So the scene in the FOTR is pretty much cannon?
[Demosthenes] this is the Silmarillion description:
[Demosthenes] But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.
[Darkover] I believe it is canon, yes, Beutlin
[Demosthenes] There’s a bit more in Unfinsihed Tales i think
[Demosthenes] but not much
[Darkover] Hi, Entwife
[Darkover] We weren’t given the exact details of what happened when Sauron lost the Ring, as I recall–the whole A-bomb in reverse thing had to be made up for the movie–but the incident itself was canonical, as I recall
[Silmarien] Does anyone feel that some of the social and political changes that happened at the time of Aldarion and Erendis affected the changes that led to the Akallabeth?
[Silmarien] Aldarion and Erendis could be its own topic….
[Beutlin] I always thought that paragraph meant Elendil and Gil-galad nearly finished Sauron but died in the process. Then Isildur came and “merely” had to cut the ring off Sauron’s hand. In the films on the other hand Sauron’s downfall is solely Isildur’s achievement.
[Darkover] Probably. Everything affects everything else, especially on down the line.
[Demosthenes] That there could be a ruling queen?
[Silmarien] Not just the ruling queen. But the changes in guilds, etc. It was such a different world then
[Darkover] Well, not solely–I didn’t get that impression, even from the movie. Sauron is the sort of villain who has to be defeated again and again.
[Silmarien] But then without the idea of a ruling queen, would Ar-Pharazon even have been able to marry Miriel and become king?
[Demosthenes] Silmarien: i think aldarion leads the drive back to Middle-earth. And i think that has cultural effects.
[Silmarien] Without Ar-Pharazon on the throne, would we have a very different outcome?
[Silmarien] Or would Sauron have manipulated a more Faithful king like Tar-Palantir? Or a ruling queen herself?
[Demosthenes] Sauron would have found another patsy,
[Beutlin] ah patsy, i love that word…
[Demosthenes] That’s my thought anyhow.
[Silmarien] Agreed, about Aldarion… he set the stage for the “wanting more land”, didnt he…
[Demosthenes] There was a crack between the Dunedain and the Valar already. Sauron would have exploited that with anyone.
[Darkover] I agree with Demosthenes. It would have taken longer, perhaps, had Sauron had to influence a less arrogant monarch, but in time the end result would have been the same, I fear.
[Demosthenes] It was just easier with Ar-Pharazon.
[Demosthenes] And faster.
[Silmarien] Ar-Pharazon had the perfect temperament for it, yes
[Demosthenes] A perfect storm. If you like.
[Darkover] (drum beat)
[Beutlin] Yes, but Ar-Pharazon marrying his cousin was the first dubious, non-Sauon related step, to the downfall of Numenor.
[Silmarien] But can we be sure that Sauron wasn’t already orchestrating this? Do we know how much prior contact with Sauron he may have had, in Middle Earth?
[Demosthenes] Also, it seems a coerced marriage which is pretty repulsive.
[Darkover] Very repulsive
[Silmarien] yes, that is repulsive.
[marco] probs is sauron lied a lot to his mother
[Darkover] and indicative of the type of personality he had. He doesn’t care what others want, and he probably gets more pleasure out of forcing his will on another/others, than if they obeyed him willingly.
[Darkover] Sauron on a smaller scale.
[Beutlin] well Sauron was not to happy being confronted with a huge Numenorian army right at his doorstep.
[Silmarien] So Sauron perhaps was waiting for just the right personality to manipulate, and he found it in Ar-Pharazon
[Darkover] And Sauron demonstrated he could be wily, as well as domineering
[Beutlin] so I would not argue that Sauron planned everything from the beginning.
[Darkover] Right. Although again, I think it would have happened in time anyway.
[Darkover] In terms of power and evil, even Sauron had the Numenoreans outclassed.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: absolutely sauron on a smaller scale. just like Saruman in that sense.
[Beutlin] I would rather argue that it was Numenorian hubris, so perfectly exemplified by Ar-Pharazon, which enabled Sauron to turn his defeat into a victory.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. And I think Tolkien wrote it that way on purpose. There is a depressing sameness to evil beings.
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: hubris, selfishness and self-absorption.
[Silmarien] Yes. And again we have the contrast with the Faithful, those who did not turn away from goodness. They had even more claim to royalty than Ar-Pharazon had, and yet they did not have that hubris
[Demosthenes] Gluttony, Avarice … you could probably find them all in Numenor … especially late on in the piece.
[Darkover] Right! So they deserved to be saved. Plus, of course, they took steps to save themselves.
[Beutlin] Still hubris backed by true power. Ar-Pharazon might have been bat-s**t-crazy but he was the most powerful Numenorean king too.
[Silmarien] And he was enticed with yet more wealth and power. And he fell for it.
[Demosthenes] Mmmmm. Well, i think we’ve worn this topic down to the bone. Unless there’s something someone wants to bring up as a final point?
[Silmarien] Only that Eru indeed had his way in the end. Ar-Pharazon lost everything for his greed and evil, and the Faithful inherited the earth
[Beutlin] Imagine a Numenorean king just as megalomaniac as Ar-Pharazon but not as powerful: He would have probably been defeated by Sauron in Middle-Earth, maybe there would have been a revolt in Numenor after said defeat and the downfall of Numenor could have been avoided.
[Darkover] I don’t believe Ar-Pharazon was crazy. He was prideful and evil. A lot of what people call “madness,” IMO, is simply normal behavior for bad people who have absolute power over others.
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything.
[Darkover] And with some intriguing arguments, too
[Darkover] More like rented it, Silmarien. More baddies always come along, in time
[Silmarien] I still wonder what would have happend had the Faithful inherited the throne of Numenor somehow. A restoration, of sorts. We would have a very different story.
[Demosthenes] Beutlin: might have joined Sauron in fact. Silmarien: i think that encapsulates the outcome pretty completely.
[Silmarien] But we do get that restoration with Aragorn 🙂
[Darkover] And with the destruction of Numenor, Sauron got taken out of the game for a time, which helped the Faithful rebuild things. Again, taking the big picture view.
[Demosthenes] Yah. I hadn’t really thought of that previously.
[Silmarien] Yes. It takes a long time,but the restoration does happen.
[Darkover] And if there had been revolt in Numenor, and a better king took over, would Sauron have made the One Ring? Destroying It let to his downfall at last.
[Darkover] So, “Even the Wise cannot see all ends.”
[Beutlin] The One Ring was created centuries before that.
[Beutlin] I think in the 1600 or something like that.
[Darkover] Oh. Well, that kind of blows my final remarks.
[Darkover] Here I thought I was being profound
[Darkover] Thanks, as always, for a great discussion!
[Demosthenes] thanks! catchyas!
[Darkover] Farewell, all!
Session Close: Sun Aug 11 09:47:03 2013