Hall of Fire chat log: the Voice of Saruman
Pages: 1 2
Session Start: Sun Jul 14 07:10:15 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic today: the Voice of Saruman. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we start the Voice of Saruman? Other folks can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] I figure that if you can’t make it in time, then it’s up to you to play catch-up.
[Demosthenes] Okay, let’s go.
[Katya] What did Curumo mean in Quenya this Maia-loving person should really know…..
[Demosthenes] I have a tiny observation to start. Aragorn says nothing this chapter. Nothing at all.
[sunshower] he’s thinking
[Demosthenes] Or watching?
[Katya] Leaving things to Gandalf?
[durka] totally impressed by the voice of saruman
[Puma] yes.i know Demz…….but aragorn knew his place there
[Erewen] Perhaps, because there is quite a lot of explanation and we already know what he did
[Demosthenes] It does strike me as an extension of something we discussed in flotsam and jetsam: Aragorn is happy to not be boss when he doesn’t have to be.
[sunshower] I like the 1st paragraph: ruined, tumbled, pitted, shattered…and such
[Puma] i agree Demz
[ChristineGolden] I find it more interesting that Saruman says nothing to him. As head of the White Council, you’d think he would have known about Aragorn.
[Puma] he has partnered with gandalf for many yrs….and they know each other well
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that’s also a good thought.
[Puma] well…no white council has met for 75 yrs
[durka] maybe he knew that talking to aragon would have no effect on him
[Katya] That’s good to keep in mind, I was unaware of that Puma. 😛
[ChristineGolden] Should we assume that Elrond kept it from Saruman that he was raising the heir of Isildur?
[Demosthenes] But Galadriel knew of him. And Elrond … why not Saruman?
[Puma] so he might not know aragorn.though he must know elrond sheltered the heirs of arnor
[Demosthenes] Mmmm… you would have thought that Saruman might pass this knowledge on as well. To Sauron, I mean.
[Maerwen] Galadriel is related to Elrond, so perhaps he saw her more often than Saruman?
[durka] he knows aragorn through grima maybe
[Puma] last meeting of white council was in i think 2953…..estel was 12
[Demosthenes] durka: another good point.
[Maerwen] I don’t think you want to mention Aragorn unless its in person.
[Puma] Sauron did not know of aragorn yet
[ChristineGolden] It doesn’t make sense unless the elves considered the secret so important that they told no one?
[Demosthenes] No he didn’t. It’s a strange thing.
[Katya] Even if Saruman HAD the info I doubt he’d have passed it on to Saruman
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: the elves were good at keeping secrets.
[Demosthenes] cf: the Three rings.
[Maerwen] And not giving straight answers.
[Erewen] Didn’t Aragorn’s mother make Elrond promise not to tell anyone?
[Demosthenes] And that too!
[Puma] aragorn was well known in lorien.but lorien communicated with no outsiders by rivendell
[Puma] but rivendell
[thorin_oakenshield] Lady Galadriel1
[ChristineGolden] So, should we assume that Elrond did not tell Saruman that an heir to Isildur survived?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that seems the only conclusion that fits.
[ChristineGolden] which only begs the next question, Demosthenes, why not?
[Puma] i am sure saruman knew northern heir existed…….just not that aragorn was the one
[Erewen] That makes sense
[Puma] movie had aragorn with ring of barahir.so saruman knew.however that is false.arwen had the ring
[sunshower] hello erkenbrand
[ChristineGolden] I’d think that Saruman, after having fallen, would have used his wiles and position on the White Council to discover who that heir was… and where.
[erkenbrand] hi sunshower
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: some rampant speculation. Galadriel did not seem to entirely favour Saruman. She may have influenced elrond to keep mum?
[Puma] could be
[durka] maybe he did know, i mean aragon was showing off he’s new sword in Rohan, and he had lots of spies there
[Puma] i dont think saruman considered an heir of isildur having an effect on his plans
[Demosthenes] durka: for what it’s worth, Wormtongue does not seem to be terribly reliable — even for Saruman.
[erkenbrand] well saruman spent a lot of time researching the ring of power, so maybe this research would have delved into the heirs of isildur
[Borin] Good evening to you all
[sunshower] hello Borin
[erkenbrand] evening Borin
[Katya] Hey Istolethe1ring and Borin.
[Erewen] Maybe Saruman knew an heir existed then, but did not consider them claiming the throne
[Demosthenes] And Wormtongue may not have realised the importance of Aragorn; moreso when he had Gandalf to report to Saruman.
[Borin] So, it’s all about the honeyed words this evening eh?
[Demosthenes] Again, that’s speculation.
[Katya] Yes Borin :D.
[Katya] Maiar. [33
[Puma] jrr leaves clues…….but you have to find them
[ChristineGolden] Well, I don’t think he knew who Aragorn was, and that’s why he said nothing to him. Probably thought he was just a Rider of Rohan.
[Borin] What’s been discussed so far?
[Erewen] Or just another ranger
[Puma] aragorn saying nothing
[sunshower] anything special about there being 27 stairs?
[Demosthenes] So, it’s Gandalf that forces the issue with Saruman here. Do you feel that he thinks that this is a loose ends thing, or that there is a real opportunity to sway Saruman back?
[Istolethe1ring] Hi Katy’s
[Puma] i think he had small hope to sway saruman.but was worth a try
[Katya] I’m with Sunshower.
[Susanita] me too
[sunshower] some opportunity while wrapping things up
[Erewen] Maybe he doesn’t really believe he can sway Saruman but wanted to give him a chance
[Istolethe1ring] I meant Katya
[erkenbrand] he seems to feel pity for saruman, he also says something similar when he and the hobbits see Saruman and worm on the way back to the shire.
[Puma] and 27 steps…….hmm…..well orthanc built by isildur and anarion
[Borin] Saruman was too haughty, too proud in his power to heed anyone of course. But what moral ground could Gandalf stand upon if not at least to try?
[Susanita] I think he feels obligated to give Saruman one last chance even if it’s probably pointless
[ChristineGolden] I think Gandalf lived in hope, that he had to give Saruman the chance to repent, but doubted he would do so.
[Demosthenes] ‘And I too will go up,’ said the king. ‘I am old, and fear no peril any more. I wish to speak with the enemy who has done me so much wrong. ?mer shall come with me, and see that my aged feet do not falter.’
[Demosthenes] And how much of it is for the benefit of the Rohirrim?
[Erewen] Like recognizing the man/maia he used to be
[Demosthenes] (whch would make it a kind of pantomime)
[sauronswife] Internet is being evil. 🙁
[Puma] so for 27 steps…….all i can think of is 9 ships…3×9=27
[sunshower] that’s similar to Gandalf having an assistant when meeting Theoden?
[Borin] Enlighten me, what is this no. 27 business?
[Susanita] # of stairs
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think it was for the Rohirrim, more for himself and the process of regaining his self-esteem, self-confidence, as King of Rohan.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: it is. But Theoden is very keen for redress of Saruman’s wrongs.
[Borin] It’s been a loooong while since I last had the time to enter Barliman’s
[erkenbrand] saruman uses his “voice” to try and sway the rohirrim at the last moment, maybe Gandalf is trying to show everyone how powerful saruman can be
[Puma] agreed christine
[Puma] do you notice.saruam talks and talks……but says nothing
[Katya] Yes. 😀
[Borin] Ah so what other purpose did this final attempt to wrest Saruman from evil also serve?
[Katya] It’s interesting.
[mib_jqfek6] like politicians
[Puma] its modern political doublespeak
[durka] a true politician
[Demosthenes] puma: what do you think that means?
[ChristineGolden] A trademark of scammers and liars, Puma.
[Borin] What undertone was Tolkien striking…
[Puma] saruman was one of most modern in lotr
[Puma] definitely a 20th century politician
[Erewen] Saruman, I think, shows the power of words over swords
[Erewen] And that perhaps is the most dangerous
[erkenbrand] but not in the best light
[Erewen] you can take away a sword but not a voice
[ChristineGolden] more like 21st century, Puma, but I know what you mean.
[Puma] jrr had seen those politicians his whole life……this was a comment on it
[mib_6uzp99] he was saruman of many colours because white was too mainstream 😉
[Demosthenes] Erewen: that’s very true. And Saruman tries and tries to sway everyone.
[Puma] jrr lived in 20th Christine
[Erewen] even with his stronghold crumbling, Saruman was dangerous
[Puma] but just as applicable today
[Borin] He is a lingering reminder of the ring’s corruption. Telling all present that it must never enter into the thoughts of any there to use the ring for their own ends. Even someone as wise as Saruman could fall.
[Puma] saruman lost hope
[ChristineGolden] True, Puma, but politicians never change – they only seem to get worse.
[Puma] a crime for jrr
[erkenbrand] so to stop the rohirrim from getting the same ideas as Boromir: using the ring to fight sauron?
[mib_6uzp99] saruman is like lucifer
[Maerwen] It could also be Tolkien saying that power, not just the ring, can corrupt. Saruman never really seemed to have anyone to pull him back like say Galadriel, Elrond, or Gandalf did.
[sunshower] deep darkling eyes?
[Puma] good point Maerwen
[Katya] Morgoth and Sauron didn’t need Rings or other things to fall down and become corrupted by power initially.
[Istolethe1ring] That’s true
[Puma] did you notice gimli wanted to see if saruman looked like gandalf
[ChristineGolden] A lust for power is based on pride, the first and deepest sin.
[Puma] he did pretty much
[sunshower] Like, and yet unlike
[Katya] Yes I thought that was interesting. And also Gimli’s words about the “langauge of Orthanc”
[Demosthenes] Why does Saruman not just give up? He’s caught in Orthanc, yet still seems to have a belief he can win? That always struck me as peculiar.
[Puma] the contrast was saruman lost hope.gandalf kept hope.even if it was a fools hope
[Maerwen] And Saruman seemed to be a good person when he walked in Fangorn and talked with the Ents. But cutting himself off maybe changed him. Gandalf, however, traveled a lot and saw lots of people, like the cute little Hobbits who had no need for power.
[Borin] I’m not so sure Maerwen. Ultimately it was a clash of power. Gandalf enflamed those with power to use it for the right cause. But points can strike both for and against of course.
[ChristineGolden] I assume he’s betting on Sauron winning the coming war, Demosthenes.
[Puma] saruman also cut himself off from the natural world…..another error for all in jrr
[Erewen] He was too self confident in his powers over man I think and underestimated GAndalf’s
[Demosthenes] Hmmm. that’s one possibility christine!
[Puma] orthanc could not be entered
[Puma] by any power other than sauron had
[Puma] he was safe there
[Katya] I want to bring up the point that Saruman perhaps envied Gandalf and that was a part of his general downfall.
[Demosthenes] Safe but ineffectual.
[Puma] saruman was using time
[erkenbrand] maybe it was because he knew that if all else failed, he had still corrupted the shire?
[Erewen] a last petty revenge?
[Katya] Yeah. 🙁
[Demosthenes] erkenbrand: now that is an interesting suggestion. but … the shire isn’t really a powerbase. not for anyone.
[Puma] i think the shire was an afterthought
[Borin] Saruman’s business in The Shire was last-ditch. An “if I can’t have nice things, no-one can” kind of thing.
[Katya] Revenge on Gandalf…?
[erkenbrand] no, but Gandalf is noticeably attached to it
[Demosthenes] I don’t think even Sauron with the Ring could have used the Shire to take over middle-earth.
[Puma] the shire was to show the nature of saruman.what his heart was
[Katya] The Shire was not about power.
[Erewen] Almost like ‘look what I can do, even in the place you thought safe’
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Saruman feared Gandalf as a rival for power.
[Puma] how corrupt and devoid he had become
[Borin] It was also a device on the industrialisation of course
[Puma] yes…but so was isengard
[Puma] isengard had once been beautiful
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: There are certainly many signs in this chapter that he is fearful. His reaction about the Ents for example. That verges on paranoia.
[Borin] In line with it precisely, Puma, yes.
[Susanita] “The treacherous are ever distrustful”
[Erewen] He had discounted the Ents
[ChristineGolden] As Gandalf said, “the treacherous are ever distrustful.”
[Demosthenes] Good line.
[Puma] like sauron.saruman did not think of all things that could weaken and defeat him.thought he had.and was wrong
[sunshower] Saruman certainly doesn’t keep his cool too long
[Borin] So…his voice.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: yes. Gimli seems to be the first to needle him.
[sunshower] or Eomer
[Katya] Oh hey! I realied Feanor ALSO had TheVoiceTM (students of Aule from earlier).
[Demosthenes] In some ways, it’s all a facade. And not a very strong one either.
[Borin] His voice. The mask. Peeling away as the last vestiges of his power leave.
* Katya nods to Borin.
[ChristineGolden] I always wondered, how does Saruman know Gimli by name?
[Puma] exceelent connection katya
[erkenbrand] the last straw was with Gandalf: you should have been the king’s jester
[Susanita] by default?
[Borin] But still potent. Potent enough to wreak his ‘final revenge’
[Susanita] he’s the only dwarf in the party
[ChristineGolden] So? He knows the names of the party?
[Puma] well….at that point no1 knew what saruman had in orthanc itself……..possibly more weapons
[ChristineGolden] their identities?
[sunshower] does he?
[Demosthenes] Thought: a lot of Isengard’s power seems to have been a facade. Based on bluff. That’s a contrast to the power Sauron wields.
[Susanita] or perhaps he knew Gloin?
[erkenbrand] I assume that he knew of some of them anyway, from previous matters
[Maerwen] Why would he know Gimli if he didn’t know Aragorn?
[Maerwen] If we go with that theory.
[Borin] Did Tolkien hold wordplay and the power of speech amongst crafts then? If Feanor and Saruman, both ‘crafty’ people had such gifts? Sauron too of course when he was the giver of gifts.
[Susanita] social engineering
[ChristineGolden] Saruman recognizes Gimli, some dwarf from a far-off kingdom, but not the heir of Isildur?
[sunshower] that’s what I was wondering Maerwen
[Katya] Yes he did! 😀
[Puma] oh.a point we might have missed..about saruman knowing stuff…he had a palantir…..he could see many things afar
[Susanita] do we know he didn’t know Aragorn?
[Erewen] A dwarf might have been more remarkable than a ranger
[erkenbrand] Aragorn was trying to hide, the dwaves on the other hand made themselves known
[Katya] Social engennering haha.
[Susanita] or just didn’t acknowledge him
[Demosthenes] Or Aragorn was hiding in plain sight.
[ChristineGolden] He acknowledged Eomer, whose rank was far inferior to Aragorn’s, Susanita.
[Puma] aragorn was good at hiding in plain sight.he had done it most of his life
[Susanita] I think Aragorn knew it wasn’t his fight but he did need to observe
[Borin] Saruman must have been searching of course. With such artefacts as were found by Gimli in Orthanc afterwards.
[Katya] I honestly think Saruman may have known or not have known, but either way Aragorn was not important/affective to his plans.
[ChristineGolden] No, that doesn’t make sense.
[Katya] Heir of Isildur he might be, but Aragorn doesn’t have the RIng, Hobbits do.
[Susanita] he might have gotten around to dissing Aragorn if the convo had continued
[ChristineGolden] I would think that the return of the king of Gondor would be very important to the plans of Saruman.
[Katya] Haha Susanita.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Gandalf upset Saruman’s applecart before he could actually get to trying to sway Aragorn.
[Borin] Isildur’s heir was a potential threat, but not at the forefront methinks.
[Katya] I guess I meant important in the small sphere of the current events.
[Puma] aragorn was king of nothing then
[Maerwen] Unless you look at the line of kings and what they’d done up to Aragorn. Not a whole lot.
[Susanita] brb gotta watch smth on TV
[Erewen] maybe he didn’t think it would happen
[Istolethe1ring] I think that was Saruman downfall, he over looked things. Or am I wrong??
[Katya] He DID overlook things. 😀 Pride does that.
[Demosthenes] Istolethe1ring: the ents, for one.
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes, we’re talking about a book. He could have kept the convo going as long as he wanted.
[Katya] JRRT yes, Saruman not so much.
[sunshower] hello ElenGalad
[ChristineGolden] The question, more properly put, is why did Tolkien choose to have Saruman recognize Gimli, but not Aragorn?
[Istolethe1ring] And the Hobbits.
[Istolethe1ring] Hi Ela
[Demosthenes] Because Gimli spoke up. He doesn’t acknowledge Legolas either.
[Katya] I have NO idea ChristineGolden. Remind me if Gimili spoke to Saruman first or the other way around?
[erkenbrand] maybe it is showing that Aragorn is trying to avoid stepping into the limelight, like when he waits outside minas tirith
[Katya] Yeah… I THOUGHT Gimli spoke up but couldn’t remember.
[ChristineGolden] Gimli spoke first but did not identify himself.
[Demosthenes] ‘Peace!’ said Saruman, and for a fleeting moment his voice was less suave, and a light flickered in his eyes and was gone. ‘I do not speak to you yet, Gimli Gl??s son,’ he said.
[Borin] I’m not sure if at this point we are venturing into over-analysis here. Gimli was outspoken in their encounter by his character, and so Saruman addressed accordingly.
[erkenbrand] it seems that saruman only addresses those who speak to him.
[Demosthenes] Mmmm … Saruman focuses only on two people, Theoden and then Gandalf.
[sunshower] brushes of Gimli and Eomer
[Demosthenes] All of his comments to others are purely reactive.
[Demosthenes] “you’re not worth my time”
[Borin] Such is his way in the dialogue.
[erkenbrand] the two people who have control over him Demosthenes ?
[Katya] Does Eomer really, or I’d think it’s only through Gandalf?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Saruman knows who Aragorn is and that at least Galadriel and Elrond deliberately chose to keep that info from him.
[Demosthenes] erkenbrand: that’s certainly one way to think about it.
[sunshower] if he can sway those two…
[mib_z2zp09] I felt bad for Saruman’s downfall, especially in the movies – Christopher Lee was brilliant.
[Borin] Gandalf the peer, Theoden once under sway.
[Puma] Christine it might well be….i think so…..but the hole is the palantir.saruman could watch all those people
[sunshower] helllo Beobert
[ChristineGolden] In other words, the only two people Saruman believes can “change his current circumstances.”
[erkenbrand] he also ignores legolas, doesn’t he ??
[erkenbrand] hi Beobert
[Maerwen] With the palantir, couldn’t the elves possibly use their rings to hide things from people?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: if he sways Theoden, he has an army again. If he sways Gandalf he has a partner in crime.
[Istolethe1ring] Yes, he does
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but Legolas in this situation is a minor character, like the two hobbits.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: the ragtag
[sunshower] poor hobbits…sitting on the steps
* Puma nods
[Katya] Maybe… Could Rings hide from Palantiri…
[Borin] I don’t think there’s anything in who he ignores, just those he has an invested interest in.
[Erewen] Important in the grand scheme of things but not right now
[erkenbrand] however, from that distance, legolas is the only person who could harm him…
[sunshower] wait…Aragorn does speak
[Katya] Feanor was a greater craftsman than Celebrimbor so… I say no…
[Istolethe1ring] Hi Marco
[Puma] legolas could not harm saruman
[marco] hi istole
[ChristineGolden] How can the heir to Isildur not be important to any ‘scheme of things,’ Erewen?
[Borin] Hullo Marco!
[Beobert] Smaug is online!?
[Puma] that is a pure movie invention
[marco] hullo borin
[Borin] Let’s not dwell on Legolas’ ranged capabilities 😛
[Maerwen] Because none of the other heirs to Isildur were ever great threats to Saruman?
[Puma] saruman would swat the arrow aside.just as gandlaf did in fangorn
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, but none of the other heirs ever showed up at Saruman’s doorstep with an army, Maerwen.
[Istolethe1ring] Marco 🙂
[sunshower] Aragorn had no army
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Gandalf effectively defangs Saruman in this chapter?
[Erewen] Aragorn could not free him from his captivity as it were neither could Gimli, Legolas or the hobbits etc. he was, I think, primarily concerned with getting free therefore he concentrated on thpse who could do so: Gandalf and Theoden
[Borin] Physically assailing Saruman in parley is not I think anything we should discuss.
[Puma] yes.with a caveat
[Borin] Book/Film blur
[Puma] he took one fang out
[erkenbrand] Gandalf definitely makes Saruman seem powerless once he shatters the illusion of his voice
[Katya] And yet Saruman later persuades Treebeard to let him go free… 🙁
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf and Theoden would have at least considered Aragorn’s opinion, Erewen, IF he had offered one.
[Puma] the war was between rohan and isengard
[ChristineGolden] Imo, I think Tolkien didn’t want to clutter up the scene.
[Puma] not with gondor or arnor
[Erewen] Maybe but I don’t think he realised just who Aragorn was or how much power he had
[erkenbrand] I don’t think it was the sarumans “voice” that persuaded treebeard
[Demosthenes] ‘Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.’
[Demosthenes] He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ‘Saruman, your staff is broken.’ There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet. ‘Go!’ said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away.
[ChristineGolden] Don’t you think that Gandalf and Theoden would have listened to Aragorn’s opinion vis-a-vis Saruman, Puma, if he had offered one?
[Borin] Personally, I think the scene is a test of resolve of the King who would lead his Rohirrim into battle. A test to see whether, at his age, he is fit for it. It solidifies Theoden as not just another weak man.
[Maerwen] Or Aragorn realized it wasn’t his place yet to say “You should do this” and let the parties involved work it out.
[Susanita] zackly Maerwen
[erkenbrand] it also renews the trust in gandalf
[Borin] Indeed erkenbrand
[Demosthenes] And shows that Gandalf is the boss.
[Arhende] I agree Borin. Théoden need to figure something out for himself after listening to Wormtongue for all that time.
[ChristineGolden] Imo, I think Tolkien did it as a dramatic device, particularly in light of future developments with the Palantir.
[Puma] perhaps Christine.but aragorn had worked with gandalf most of his life..and knew when to let his power rest unnoticed
[erkenbrand] bye Beobert
[Maerwen] I think Aragorn not speaking shows also how wise he is, too.
[Borin] Saruman was called for and then sent away. Gandalf says, Saruman does.
[Arhende] he knows when to hold his peace
[Demosthenes] And he also tells Saruman at one point that he has no leave to go.
[sunshower] is Aragorn cracking a joke when he comments on Grima’s aim?
[Susanita] I love that Dem
[Demosthenes] He turned and left the balcony.
[Demosthenes] ‘Come back, Saruman!’ said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again. and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard.
[Puma] just a comment
[Susanita] Get back here, I’m not done with you!
[Demosthenes] ‘I did not give you leave to go,’ said Gandalf sternly. ‘I have not finished.
[Susanita] like a little kid
[Borin] Oh no you don’t Saruman!
[ChristineGolden] I think the focus of the chapter is the breaking of Saruman’s power by Gandalf. Aragorn’s 2 cents would not only have ‘cluttered the scene,” but weakened the revelation of Aragorn revealing himself later to Sauron via the Palantir.
[erkenbrand] I think that Aragorn was being serious sunshower
[Borin] *pulled by the ear*
[Puma] i agree Christine
[Mithrandir] What are we discussing, Puma?
[erkenbrand] i have to agree ChristineGolden
[marco] mind matter
[Puma] voice of saruman chapter Mithrandir
[Mithrandir] Ah! One of my favourites! ^^
[sunshower] the palantir cracks the step ….the Ents could not damage ….interesting
[Katya] Mine too.
[Katya] Feanor again.
[ChristineGolden] But by including Theoden, it shows that Saruman no longer has any power over him – call it proof of redemption.
[erkenbrand] both the palantir and orthanc have connections with numenor…
[Puma] palantirs made by feanor to be indestructable
[Borin] Mithrandir, we’ve moved onto discussing Saruman’s motives in the scene, what the chapter establishes.
[Mithrandir] In fact everything that includes Gandalf is my fav. *giggles*
[Demosthenes] It is obvious that Saruman is struggling, but ineffectively at this point. In a battle of wills, Gandalf is now ascendent.
[Arhende] sunshower, makes one wonder what the palantir is made of…
[Puma] palantirs made by feanor
[sunshower] Orthanc was unbreakable..until then
[Erewen] glass would have shattered
[Maerwen] They’re magical. It doesn’t matter what they’re made of.
[Mithrandir] I remember we once discussed this chapter together, remember Puma?
[erkenbrand] so if sauron catapulted palantiri at minas tirith not rocks…
[Katya] Silmarili too.
[marco] I don’t remember this chapter very well I should be ashamed lol
[Demosthenes] And perhaps the fact that Saruman could not sway Theoden is another indicator of, as Pippin puts it in the previous chapter, how mcuh Saruman has slipped.
[Katya] Catapulting Palantiri at MT…hahahahaha
[Puma] agreed Demz
[Erewen] his threat has ended for now
[Istolethe1ring] Same here Marco
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf is grounded in strong values; the other, Saruman, by personal interests, Demosthenes. In Tolkien’s world, right always triumphs (eventually).
[Puma] i always learn when we have discourse as this is
[marco] we should be shot istolethe1ring
[Erewen] makes it shocking when you find out what happened to the Shire, you think you can just forget about him
[Puma] socratic learning still works
[Mithrandir] A point I brought forward once: Remember before breaking the staff of Saruman Gandalf told him to hand it over?
[ChristineGolden] A random idea on Saruman’s waning power: could that be a theme of Tolkien’s? That power used for evil drains and diminishes the person?
[Erewen] surrender willingly rather than be foreced
[Katya] That IS an interesting idea.
[Katya] Misusing power diminishing.
[Puma] good point Christine……..i would have to think on that
[Istolethe1ring] Yes, we should marco
[Arhende] that’s interesting ChristineGolden
[erkenbrand] another example: denethor?
[Demosthenes] Mithrandir: Gandalf does try to get Saruman to come down, but the thought is all too much for Saruman.
[Katya] Denethor, yes.
[Puma] but much middle earth magic involves putting your power in exterior objects….so you would be correct
[sunshower] kinda like Frodo trying to turn GOllum
[Maerwen] How would you work in diminished power of Saruman when it comes to the Shire? Not that I’m disagreeing, but just curious.
[Puma] shire takes little power to overcome.not a power base
[Katya] The Shire is so truly petty it’s not anywhere NEAR on the same scale of Saruman’s other things.
[sunshower] before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask…
[Susanita] it’s just Saruman being a bully
[erkenbrand] saruman was overcoming the shire for a while, hence all the pipeweed?
[ChristineGolden] Saruman had set those events in motion before the attack, Maerwen; things just evolved on their own after that through his lieutenants.
[Mithrandir] guys one thing that i always wondered is the grammatical part of gandalf’s command.
[Puma] but even in shire….tooks never gave in
[Mithrandir] he says “your staff is broken”
[Mithrandir] but surely until he says that it’s not
[Mithrandir] that , *
[Katya] I want to say gandalf is now the head of the Istari and has been given authority to break the staff? I’m not sure how I feel on that due to the Eonwe being unable to pardon Sauron thing. Hmmm.
[Borin] I think the thought of diminishing Saruman an uncomfortable for the reasons of the Scouring of The Shire. I see the breaking of Saruman’s staff as an assertion of Gandalf’s power, “kicking him out of the band” that is, The Istari. The Scouring is, I feel, all about the Hobbits showing that they are ready to take care of themselves “you are ready for this”
[ChristineGolden] it’s a command,Mithrandir.
[Katya] Though maybe pardon and staff-breaking are different.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s an exercise of power. magic, if you will. lots of magic flying around this chapter. (and not just palantiri)
[Borin] To have Saruman ‘softened up’ for them diminishes their own victory over him in the end.
[ChristineGolden] Nice pun, Demosthenes. 😉
[Puma] gandalf did not become head istari…..just the most powerful…..now we get to see how he uses that power
[Puma] and can contrast with saruman
[Katya] Then who is head Istari in Saruman’s absance?
[Mithrandir] btw, who was the head after saruman?
[Katya] Or the post was left vacant?
[erkenbrand] saruman as he should have been
[Katya] Galadriel’s NOT a Maia….
[Mithrandir] she wanted Gandalf to be but he declined
[Puma] there was never head istari
[Katya] He declined Ooooh…
[Puma] they were independant
[Arhende] then is saruman still the head of the istari? didn’t Gandalf say he has no color and been cast from the order?
[Katya] Ah, OK.
[Mithrandir] But Saruman was Puma.
[erkenbrand] Gandalf must have become the head of the Istari since radagast wouldn’t and the blues have disappeared
[Mithrandir] the blues have nothing to do with the order
[sunshower] hello hashim
[Erewen] Is it even needed? the time of the elves is fading, when the war ends the istari will leave
[Katya] They do but that’s another day’s subject. (the Blue Wizards)
[Mithrandir] Oh wait
[marco] ur getting book mixed up with film mith
[Mithrandir] I meant to say the HEAD of the White Council
[ChristineGolden] Was Saruman head of the Istari or the White Council?
[erkenbrand] both i think
[Katya] It was the White Council he decined isn’t it?
[Puma] white council had not met in 75 yrs
* Katya rubs head.
[Borin] I think that someone is naturally going to be at the forefront of the Istari, but assuming a headship is precisely what went wrong with Saruman. Placing himself above the others was the pride that led to the downfall in his thoughts of domination generally.
[Katya] Good point Borin.
[Puma] i dont agree borin
[erkenbrand] very true Borin
[ChristineGolden] I know the movie has Gandalf saying, “I must talk with the head of my order,” but is that in the book?
[Borin] Please explain Puma 🙂
[Puma] each istari had their own role to play…….there was no head istari
[Susanita] CG I think that’s movie only
[Mithrandir] sorry guys, i was talking about the white council. clearly there was no “Head of Istari”
[Borin] Ah that is precisely my point Puma
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I thought, Puma. Thanks.
[Puma] saruman was the highest in valinorean order
* Mithrandir agrees with Puma (as usual 😀 )
[Puma] that is a different matter
[Erewen] I think he was most powerful not the head
[erkenbrand] in unfinished tales it says that Saruman was only REGARDED as the head of the order
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe not,’ answered Gandalf. ‘Hobbits are, or were, no concern of his. Yet he is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling.’
[Maerwen] If Saruman thought, though, that he was better than the others, he would have seen himself as the leader so it wouldn’t matter if there was an actual leader or not.
[Susanita] and Saruman wanted to be “both tyrant and counsellor”
[Demosthenes] from “shdow of the past”
[sunshower] thanks Demosthenes
[Borin] Saruman’s high ideals, his contempt for the other Istari (“Radagast the fool” etc.) shows his self-regard. I wasn’t implying he was at the physical head of the A-Team so to speak.
[Mithrandir] imo CHIEF of the order does not mean HEAD
[Arhende] imo chief doesn’t necessarily need to mean the head of something.
[Katya] Like “chief of these”?
[Puma] it refers to valinorean power..not politics
[Demosthenes] it means bossman
[Borin] chief = leading. But not leader.
[Lady_Celebrian] hai hai Puma
[Mithrandir] OMG, are we doing a Hall of Fire? :O 😀 I’ve only noticed! LOL
[Mithrandir] Hello LC! ))
[Demosthenes] borin: no-one would argue that, as chieftain of the dunedain of the north, that aragorn wasn’t in charge.
[sunshower] what’s Gandalf mean with his “some merciful and some less so…” remark?
[ChristineGolden] It could simply mean that people yielded to his superior knowledge on Sauron and the rings.
[Puma] agreed Christine
[Borin] Just clarification was all Demosthenes. In reference to the previous confusion with my earlier input.
[Pete_R] Hi Sunshower, demosthenes, and all
[Demosthenes] sunshower: which line is that?
[Puma] the problem was saruman did not share all his knowledge
[sunshower] #42 demz?
[Mithrandir] Guys, clearly the “magic” of the Istari did not depend on their staves, did it?
[Demosthenes] oh i found it.
[Demosthenes] ‘Not likely,’ answered Gandalf, ‘though they came to the balance of a hair. But I had reasons for trying; some merciful and some less so.’
[sunshower] ….after they exit negotiations
[Mithrandir] Because Saruman still could use his Voice.
[Katya] So the broken staff was symbolic?
[ChristineGolden] We also have to consider the placement of this chapter: Tolkien must have thought it important, making it the lead-in to the climax and ending of book 3.
[Mithrandir] Purely symbolic! Puma generously explained it to me once! 😀
[Puma] like ripping his stripes off a uniform
[erkenbrand] perhaps more to show the Rohirrim Gandalf’s power?
[Mithrandir] But the staves did really have some “power” in them.
[Borin] Staff of office I think Katya
[Puma] the stafs were a conduit of power.not a power themselves
[Mithrandir] Nice point about stripes, Puma! 😀
[Demosthenes] sunshower: well, in a practical sense, Saruman could probably /still/ be a powerful ally. And … on the other hand … maybe Gandalf hoped that Saruman would turn back.
[Erewen] Then why did they try to Gandalf’s staff at Meduseld
[ChristineGolden] I would say that their staves were A source of using their power, Mithrandir.
[Puma] saruman knew a lot.of course he would be a powerful ally
[Mithrandir] Sometimes I wonder, why on earth would the ever use the staves? They could channel their “magic” without them clearly. Like Saruman’s Voice or Gandalf’s Light.
[Mithrandir] No Christine, I don’t agree
[sunshower] so…less so=kind of self-serving?
[Mithrandir] The staves weren’t the source.
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they intensified it, Mithrandir.
[sunshower] or not just “self” serving
[Puma] i dont agree Chrsitine
[Borin] Frodo wanted to believe Gollum could come back for his own sake. Gandalf I think had similar sentiments but with regard to the nobility of their true form and purpose.
[Demosthenes] He knows our need, none better. Great service he could have rendered. But he has chosen to withhold it, and keep the power of Orthanc. He will not serve, only command.
[Katya] Sounds like sa’angreal (power magnifiers)
[erkenbrand] more just symbols of power, like crowns?
[ChristineGolden] Kind of like channeling their energies. Just tossing out ideas, Puma.
[Mithrandir] Intensify? What does that mean, lol! 😀
[Demosthenes] That’s the self-interest bit. But Gandalf also wants to redeem Saruman in and of himself for no other purpose than doing so.
[Erewen] like wands in HArry Potter you can do wandless magic but it’s harder and more tiring
[ChristineGolden] Like a prism can channel light and make it more intense.
[Puma] a conduit of power.but not a source
[Mithrandir] Well, Gandalf did magic without the staff too. So he didnt need it for magic that much.
[ChristineGolden] yes, Puma! thank you.
[sunshower] so there is some parallel with Gandalf/Saruman and Frodo/Gollum here?
* Dwynaway is now known as Dwyna
[Demosthenes] If Saruman had renounced Mordor, I suspect Gandalf would have let him walk from the tower.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: yeah i think so.
[Puma] all but that gollum had the one moment when he almost reformed.saruman never had that moment
[Demosthenes] Though Frodo was more effective and only foiled by Sam.
[erkenbrand] i disagree Demosthenes, i think that that is to much
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I’m not sure Gandalf would have let Saruman just stroll off into the distance, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] saruman *did* seem to feel some doubt
[Borin] sunshower, I think in a sense yes. But generally with regard to not letting corruption and evil win.
[Maerwen] But how could they ever trust Saruman not to cause trouble again, even if he had renounced his ties to Mordor?
[Katya] Me either. Trial in Valinor time….
[Demosthenes] When his eye turns hither, it will be the red eye of wrath. But when I say ‘free’, I mean ‘free’: free from bond, of chain or command: to go where you will, even, even to Mordor, Saruman, if you desire.
[Demosthenes] to go where you will
[Puma] he might have been watched as melkor was after his release.though i know not by whom
[Mithrandir] One thing I wonder. Which will be a great debate, Im sure. Remember when they enter the Court of Meduseld in TTT, when Grima sees the staff of Gandalf he tells the others “The staff… I told you to take the wizard’s staff”. And Hama had clear orders from him to take it before he enters… SUrely there was something more to that stick that Gruma was afraid of
[Katya] I forgot about that.
[ChristineGolden] I think it would have been more like, “keep your friends close and your enemies closer” with Gandalf and Saruman.
[Mithrandir] And Hama says “the staff in the hands of a wizard is more than just a WALKING STICK”
[Puma] symbols of power.can be a power in themselves for what they represent
[Arhende] nice puma
[Erewen] like a ceremonial sword nowadays
[sunshower] does Gandalf’s saying he’s keeping Saruman’s Key just break the deal?
[erkenbrand] it is not quite as extreme in the book as it is in the film Mithrandir
[Puma] people pay attention…gandlaf had to get theoden attention then
[ChristineGolden] I think a wizard without his staff would be similar to Sauron without his ring: diminished, but not vanquished.
[sunshower] free=with strings
[Puma] i dont agree Christine
[Mithrandir] No Christine.
[Puma] more like a jedi without a lightsaber….just craft another
[Mithrandir] Saruman made a mess of the Shire withpout his staff
[Demosthenes] He still had his voice. and Wormtongue.
[Puma] more than a staff broken was done to saruman..he was stipped of his essential valinoren power
[erkenbrand] most of the in the shire was before he lost his staff
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I said, “diminished,” Demosthenes.
[Mithrandir] was he?
[Mithrandir] by gandalf???
[Demosthenes] mith: yeah, like i said earlier. lotta magic going on in this chapter.
[Puma] gandalf was an agent of whom.who sent gandalf back
[Mithrandir] and i like it! 😛
[Puma] so eru stripped the power
[Katya] Eru stripping the power. That I like….
[Mithrandir] what power are we talking about Puma?
[Mithrandir] the Power of the Maia?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Puma. Of course, but I was speaking only of Saruman’s staff. Gandalf also stripped him of his other powers, too.
[Mithrandir] hmm, i dont get it.
[Puma] but as an agent of eru
[Mithrandir] first up
* Katya has always been confused by the situation of Maiar reduced (for safeguarding) into Istari.
[Mithrandir] what powers did the maia have?
[Mithrandir] almost any
[sunshower] interesting…G’s claim that Saruman won’t easily come out again
[erkenbrand] in or excluding his voice?, since the staff was broken after he used his voice
[Mithrandir] they could change their shape at will
[Katya] I have to say his voice is more his own…and not necessarilly magical?
[Mithrandir] and do “magic”
[Mithrandir] and clearly Saruman was still able to do magic after the staff breaking
[Puma] not really
[Mithrandir] magic is different in JRR
[Puma] what did he do
[Puma] just talk is all
[Puma] anyone with a voice.can sway and influence
[ChristineGolden] That’s certainly possible, Mithrandir, and may be one of the reasons Saruman was chosen to be one of the Istari- the power of his voice to persuade.
[erkenbrand] saruman never uses his voice after his staff is broken, however is this through choice or force?????
[Mithrandir] how do u know he doesnt?
[ChristineGolden] we don’t know, erkenbrand.
[Katya] I can see him using his voice in the Shire honestly. No proof of course but I can still see it.
[Demosthenes] He did convince Treebeard to let him leave. That’s an ambiguous one though.
[Mithrandir] i think every maiar (istar) had different powers.
[Mithrandir] like Saruman was skilled with his voice
[erkenbrand] treebeard did seem to have some sympathy for saruman anyway
[Puma] saruman had more power than his voice.voice was just 1 tool of his
[sunshower] I don’t see that erkenbrand
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it was because Treebeard had that “weakness” Saruman loathed – compassion.
[Mithrandir] another one (a skill) came to him from Aule
[Mithrandir] crafting his own ring
[Puma] and treebeard liked no caged things
[Maerwen] Have a nice evening/day/afternoon!
[Katya] Crafting a ring?
[Puma] yes.saruman made a ring
[Mithrandir] have u read the books Katya?
[Puma] she has
[Puma] very well
[Katya] I have but I don’t remember a ring made by Saruman.
[Katya] I need to reread them.
[ChristineGolden] Me, either.
[Puma] seen by gandalf when he was in orthance
[Borin] He made small attempts if memory serves
[Mithrandir] Well, he did make a Ring for himself.
[ChristineGolden] The only rings of power I know of are the ones in the rhyme.
[marco] don’t worry about it katya I don’t even remember anything bout this chapter lol
[Borin] A ring was upon his finger, yes.
[Puma] but no evidence that it had any power or not
[Mithrandir] that was a Lesser Ring
[Katya] The Rings in the poem are only GREAT Rings. :))))
[Borin] Yes, a rude attempt at the greater powers.
[ChristineGolden] Or a ring to signify his being head of the White Council.
[Istolethe1ring] What book are we on??
[Katya] Isn’t it?
[Puma] drifting a bit now
[Mithrandir] TTT, voice of saruman
[Demosthenes] We should discuss the chapter coda as well before winding up. The little exchange with Treebeard.
[Borin] The Voice of Saruman…with digression.
[Puma] we always do
[Pete_R] My guess is that Saruman experimented (unsuccessfully), trying to learn how to make a ring of power of his own.
[Katya] I get confused when TT and RotK end and start.
[sunshower] treebeard meets the others
[ChristineGolden] We’re winding up?
* Katya nods in agreement with Pete_R.
[Pete_R] Same here, Katya. The movies did that to me. 🙂
[Puma] they are all one book to me
[Demosthenes] Treebeard speaks to all the companions, but only the speech with Legolas is reported
[Puma] i wish i had an ear in that convo
[ChristineGolden] This is the second-to-last chapter of Book Three – that’s significant in itself.
[Pete_R] They were one book to Tolkien, consisting of 6 books.
[Puma] correct pete
[Demosthenes] The Old Ent looked at them long and searchingly, and spoke to them in turn. Last he turned to Legolas. ‘So you have come all the way from Mirkwood, my good Elf? A very great forest it used to be!’
[ChristineGolden] But each has its own climax, pete (good to see ya, btw.)
[sunshower] lol–Gilmi drops his ax
[Mithrandir] when was that Demo?
[Demosthenes] Right at the very end of VOS.
[Arhende] that’s interesting how we only hear the conve with legolas
[Pete_R] Thanks, ChristineGolden, ditto back. Just got home from a drive to the wilds of New Jersey.
[Arhende] I wonder if theres some significance to that.
[sunshower] WTG, Gimli!
[erkenbrand] i wonder what he would have said to aragorn
[Demosthenes] Arhende: only the bit with Legolas, Treebeard and Gimli is important.
[Mithrandir] i forgot that last part actually
[Borin] I’m beginning to think even old Fangorn’s way was swayed in the end. His words “we shall not tire of watching him” indicate thus.
[Arhende] why though?
[Demosthenes] Legolas will only visit Fangorn with Gimli in tow. In fact, he kinda twists Treebeard’s arm there.
* marco is now known as hungry_marco
[Borin] Unless it’s a Bombadil-style unconcern.
[Demosthenes] ‘Strange it may seem,’ said Legolas; ‘but while Gimli lives I shall not come to Fangorn alone. His axe is not for trees, but for orc-necks, O Fangorn, Master of Fangorn’s Wood. Forty-two he hewed in the battle.’
[Arhende] I liked that part. when legolas says that.
[Borin] Why Mithrandir why?
[Puma] another example of friendship
[erkenbrand] after legolas rests treebeards concerns over the axe, treebeard doesn’t seem to mind
[ChristineGolden] meant to underscore the growing bond between not only Legolas and Gimli, but the coming alliance against Sauron.
[Demosthenes] erkenbrand: yes. it’s a bit of a Hobson’s choice for Treebeard though
[ChristineGolden] But wouldn’t that be a flaw, Demosthenes? After all, Treebeard did give his word that Saruman would be kept in Orthanc.
[Mithrandir] blame sarumans voice
[Borin] So anyway, a Iarwain Ben-Adar-like unconcern.
[Katya] I’m with Mith on this.
[Puma] treebeard interpeted that to mean when he was no more danger
[ChristineGolden] And keeping one’s word was a really big thing in ME – look at the oathbreaking dead.
[Mithrandir] it’s kinda two things
[erkenbrand] i don’t think that treebeard was unconcerned,
[Mithrandir] saruman voice + treebeard’s not liking caged things
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, but Treebeard did give his word.
[Demosthenes] ‘Indeed no! Ents will see to that,’ said Treebeard. ‘Saruman shall not set foot beyond the rock, without my leave. Ents will watch over him.’
[Puma] but following orders and when not to.is also another big thing Chrsitine
[Demosthenes] without my leave
[erkenbrand] it is with his leave isn’t it….
[sunshower] well, it sounds good…in the moment anyhow
[Katya] Thanks for the actual text.
[Mithrandir] via saruman’s voice! 😛
[ChristineGolden] But Treebeard wasn’t ordered to keep Saruman in Orthanc; it was requested and he agreed to do so.
[sunshower] he must not be allowed to escape
[ChristineGolden] kinda like keeping a promise.
[Mithrandir] Rain started here………
[Puma] and treebeard said he would be kept in orthanc tioll he gave him leave to go
[Demosthenes] Gandalf says “good, that is what i hoped” Obviously gandalf agrees with those terms.
[Demosthenes] As spoken
[sunshower] treebeard makes a call later
[Puma] remember.ents still go to war later…….and defeat orcs on the wold
[Pete_R] cell phone call?
[Borin] And “there it is”
[erkenbrand] Gandalf doesn’t seem to mind to much that treebeard let saruman go
[Mithrandir] i wonder if any entwives ever survive
[Susanita] we’ll talk about this again later 😉
[ChristineGolden] So, Treebeard did break his word. Perhaps he was “forgiven” because his reason was based on compassion, not cowardice or personal gain..
[Katya] I would HOPE so and they eventually find the Ends/the other way around.
[Demosthenes] I also like how Treebeard kinda empathises with Saruman. ‘So Saruman would not leave?’ he said. ‘I did not think he would. His heart is as rotten as a black Huorn’s. Still, if I were overcome and all my trees destroyed, I would not come while I had one dark hole left to hide in.’
[sunshower] true demz
[Pete_R] Mithrandir, Tolkien said somewhere (Letters, maybe) that the entwives *probably* didn’t survive. He didn’t say definitely, though.
[ChristineGolden] Again, though, you have Treebeard judging Saruman by his own values, not those of the wizard’s.
[Puma] correct pete
* Katya hopes at least SOME Entwives are in Valinor at least.
[Mithrandir] the entwices were destroyed by Sauron in 2nd age
[Puma] but what were the wlking trees seen in the shire?
[Mithrandir] before the war of bola
[ChristineGolden] They supposedly went to what became known as the Brown Lands, so I think we can assume Sauron destroyed the entwives.
[Mithrandir] walking trees?
[Demosthenes] Which is pretty much how the ents operate throughout, christine.
[Puma] not an ent.treebeard would have known
[Mithrandir] you mean the Old forest Puma?
[Borin] Entwives now is it?
[erkenbrand] Katya, there is always hope
[Katya] Hope FTW!
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, we bounce around a lot after the first hour, Borin. 😉
[Puma] in opening chapter of fotr..walking trees had been seen in shire.as talked about in pub
[Mithrandir] how much is this discussion going on guys?
[Borin] I’m well aware ChristineGolden! 😀
[Susanita] it goes until we’re done 🙂
[Katya] As long as we want ti to? I mean… it’s been over an hour and a half haha.
[Borin] Haha, well I think it’s time I took my leave.
[Katya] Farewell Borin.
[Puma] stay safe Borin
[Borin] Until next I find the time, farewell
[Susanita] or Dem says it’s over 🙂
[Mithrandir] bye Borin
[erkenbrand] by Borin
[ChristineGolden] ok,hope to see you next week, Borin. 🙂
[ChristineGolden] I do think it’s interesting that Saruman, who must have been so aware of Merry and Pippin, says nothing to or about them.
[Puma] Demz.we done…….i think we covered things well?
[sunshower] Treebeard’s (later) disclosure about Saruman reminds me some of Legolas’ earlier) disclosure about Gollum
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think this pops up next chapter.
[Katya] I didn’t get the answer to my Curumo question. I can’t remember…
[sunshower] ummm….well, actually
[Demosthenes] The ragtag thing.
[Puma] probably same as curunir katya
[Katya] True but I can’t remember the meaning of either. Wasn’t it wise or something to do with crafting?
[Mithrandir] AH! PUMA! Just remember I had to tell you something! 😀
[Puma] all the names people have always mean more or less the same thing
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, I just think it’s odd he doesn’t even acknowledge them when you know his mind must have been spinning. (trying not to jump to the next chapter)
[Demosthenes] Curunir is the Sindarin equivalent of Quenya Curumo. (Encyclopaedia of Arda)
[Puma] what i said
[Katya] Yes….. but what do they MEAN haha
[Katya] Skillful… *wracks brain*
[Demosthenes] Man of Skill iirc
[Katya] Ahhhh. Thank you Dem.
[Istolethe1ring] It’s over???
[sunshower] man of steel?
[Puma] man of skill
[Pete_R] Just get here, Istolethe1ring?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: I think he was either a) too focused, or b) just not really with it.
[ChristineGolden] I think he was 1) afraid and 2) lost control of the conversation, Demosthenes.
[Istolethe1ring] No, I was talking to other people Pete_R
[Demosthenes] your second point would equate to my second point.
[Pete_R] Oh, okay, Istolethe1ring. I justgot here a little while ago myself
[Puma] yes.i will eat after HoF
[Susanita] ciao for chow!
[sunshower] bring us some food!
[Demosthenes] And, that’s actually the explanation i prefer.
[Pete_R] Hi and bye, Susanita
[ChristineGolden] Ok, I can see that, Demosthenes, since the chapter is about Saruman’s fall from power and grace
[Demosthenes] Okay, any final points?
[Puma] i think we made them
[Demosthenes] Ok, I declare us done. Thanks everyone. 🙂
Session Close: Sun Jul 14 10:41:23 2013