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Log of Hall of Fire’s Idril and Tuor chat

April 13, 2013 at 8:05 pm by Demosthenes  - 

Barliman's Chat A little earlier, Hall of Fire regulars and guests concluded a lively discussion about the enigma of Idril and Tuor. For those who missed it, here’s a log to peruse. Next weekend, we’ll be returning to The Two Towers and chatting about the chapter “Treebeard”.


Session Start: Sun Apr 14 07:13:01 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire

[Demosthenes] Let’s kick off.
[Demosthenes] Odd observation to begin: we speak of Aragorn and Arwen. And Beren and Luthien. But … why is it Idril and Tuor? I found that interesting.
[Puma] good point
[miriel] very easy
[Puma] but idril was a great power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t understand. Why not?
[miriel] Ara vs Arw
[miriel] B vs L
[miriel] I vs T
[miriel] just alphabetical
[miriel] logical order
[miriel] makes them all equal, IMO
[Demosthenes] Hmm, is that it?
[ChristineGolden] Idril and Tuor were one of the three great unions of elves and men.
[Puma] tuor was not of the 1st line of chieftains of house of hador
[miriel] oh
[Puma] house of hador
[miriel] and also, Tuor joined the Elves in their fate
[Puma] yes
[miriel] unlike the others
[Puma] the only one to be so admitted
[brennil] Tuor was pretty much just a wanderer till he came to Gondolin, right?
[miriel] where it was the elf that joined the Men
[ChristineGolden] Without Tuor and Idril, there is no Earendil, so I think their union was very important.
[Puma] well……tuor had never known his father or mother
[miriel] indeed, it was
[Darkover] Greetings, all!
[Puma] when 1st written….idril and tuor was the 1st union of elves and edain
[Demosthenes] I don’t think that either Aragorn or Beren came from great estates either. Maybe higher on renown, but … not much in the way of possessions.
[ChristineGolden] Plus, Turgon was the High King of the Noldor, so the fall of Gondolin would be noteworthy.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover. ;)
[Demosthenes] That’s an interesting parallel between the three in fact.
[Darkover] howdy, Chris!
[miriel] one important change from other unions as well: the father gave away his daughter´s hand without any complaints
[miriel] hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] They all start from reduced circumstances.
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel! Hello, Demosthenes!
[Puma] yes.turgon was actually happy about the union
[Demosthenes] hiya Darkover
[Finarfin] I like what miriel said earlier about Tuor joining Idril’s fate. It’s as if the “leader” of the pair is the one whose fate is shared by both.
[Elrenia] Hi everyone :)
[Darkover] Tuor was sent by the Valar, though, wasn’t he? So he sort of had that going for him
[ChristineGolden] Ulmo, I believe.
[Puma] but tuor was raised by elves in hiding….then he was enslaved by the evil men in hithlum
[Demosthenes] Finarfin: well, i wondered if the naming order implied that /idril/ is the … boss … for want of a better word.
[miriel] and indeed: Idril was the one that plotted the secret tunnel, which ultimately saved their lives
[Finarfin] haha
[miriel] ulmo, indeed chris
[Finarfin] maybe so
[Darkover] Right, thanks Chris
[Finarfin] g2g early friends
[Darkover] Hi, Elrenia
[Finarfin] adieu
[Puma] in LT2.it says idril had a great great gift of foresight….not gone into in sil
[miriel] hi all new names
[miriel] it is mentioned there as well puma
[Puma] ah
[Demosthenes] Yeah it is. In relation to the secret way in particular.,
[Puma] and idril did bear arms…..the other 2 did not
[Demosthenes] I don’t think Luthien needed weapons. she proved that pretty well in morgoth’s throne room.
[Mimi_Sardinia] other two?
[miriel] “but idril celebrindal was wise and far-seeing, and her heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit as a cloud”
[miriel] ^silm
[Puma] true enough….luthien had vast power
[ChrisHobbit] Helloooo my elvish friends
[Darkover] Maybe we could say Luthien didn’t need conventional weapons, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Puma] miriel….in lt2 more detail is given….saying her gift was way beyond others
[Demosthenes] So what is it about this pair that makes them great?
[Darkover] Tuor was so much like an elf, didn’t the Elves of Gondolin initially find it hard to believe he was a mortal Man?
[Darkover] It’s like he was an honorary Elf, having been raised among them, and among them more than among Men
[miriel] indeed darkover
[Puma] well.tuor was the tallest of all the edain
[ChristineGolden] 1) They were the parents of Earendil and 2) they saved the remnants of the Noldor in Gondolin.
[Darkover] And we know of Tolkien’s obsession with height
[miriel] but that was also due to the fact that he spoke with the …urging of ulmo, one could say
[ChristineGolden] Without them, wouldn’t the line of the high kings have died out?
[Puma] but when tuor went to gondolin….he had no experience with women at all…but for those that had enslaved and mistreated him
[Darkover] Quite so. How many other Men, or Elves, can say that, Miriel?
[miriel] indeed
[Puma] yes.it is thru idril and tuor that the line of finwe survived
[Tim_Bombadil] Ho ho Ho! Dallydo Dally dum, Tim Bombadil thinks this is Fun!
[ChristineGolden] And came together with the line of Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the union of the lines of the peredhil
[Demosthenes] luck?
[miriel] it is interesting to see how they all sooner or later marry in the great lines
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[ChrisHobbit] seems like you guys have much more knowledge of this then i do
[miriel] apart from dwarves and elves
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think it was luck as much as fate, Demosthenes, fate with a healthy dose of free will.
[Puma] its also one tale in which a vala did take an active part….which was not the norm
[Puma] i mean in person
[Puma] and surely turgon remembered the words of huor to him at the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor dilly dallied far too long, So long he almost missed Turgon’s song!
[Puma] out of your house and mine.a new star shall arise
[Darkover] literally, it seems
[Puma] in gondolin.tuor receieved an education such as no otehr of the edain had had….
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether the real greatness of Idril and Tuor lies in saving the remnant of the Gondolindrim. Which, a bit like Boromir’s long ride from Gondor to Rivendell gets a bare few lines of description.
[Demosthenes] A sort of Dunkirk, if you will.
[Puma] its one of my great sadnesses that jrr never finished the post lotr version of fall of gondolin
[ChristineGolden] I like that comparison. It’s very “apt.”
[Darkover] Right. Nobody ever sings any songs about the people who just take care of business. Eowyn would understand that.
[Puma] also of borondirs ride to get the eotheod
[Demosthenes] From Cirion and Eorl?
[ChristineGolden] “They also serve who only stand and wait,” Darkover?
[Puma] but yes.the saving of a remnant of gondolin was of great import
[Demosthenes] That’s a bit like Phidippides marathon run.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, exactly! But they don’t get as much, if any, praise.
[miriel] I think the main point is that they saved themselves
[Puma] gondolin did have the highest culture of the noldor
[miriel] aaand a couple of other people just tagged along
[Puma] glorfindel earned a right to a swift return to life….for furthering the escape
[ChristineGolden] I think the most important part of the tale, other than as another step toward the coming of the Valar, the story’s main importance is Earendil.
[Demosthenes] They do seem to “run” the refugee camp? at the mouths of the sirion?
[Puma] and actually they saved a good number of people
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] And Elves have come perilously close to being wiped out several times, Elder race or not. Men may be weaker, but we seem to have better survival power as a species.
[brennil] Idril seemed to be wise, well-respected. Why didn’t she warn the others when she felt a dark foreboding?
[miriel] we are just more adaptive, I think Darkover
[miriel] r-strateges
[Demosthenes] Turgon was stubborn. If he’s not going to listen to Ulmo, who will he listen to?
[ChristineGolden] A lot of the elven kingdoms had isolated themselves, Darkover, allowing Morgoth to ‘divide and conquer.’
[miriel] vs K-strateges
[brennil] elves get too comfortable in their long lives
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. Idril and Tuor are so important, for all the reasons we’ve enumerated here.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe she did, but either they didn’t believe her or thought it not very likely.
[Puma] i am glad we are discussing them.they seem to get short shrift compared to the other 2
[Demosthenes] in some ways, Tuor’s mission from Ulmo was a vain one. Mission impossible.
[Darkover] Right, Chris. And Miriel, there’s nothing “just” about being able to adapt, it is a survival characteristic. Elves may be hardier, but they never seem to want anything to change.
[Demosthenes] And in that way maybe a red herring
[Puma] turon had grown to proud
[Puma] turgon
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. The Valar may give good advice, but that doesn’t mean others take it.
[miriel] indeed, I think that the separating is a bad thing. Many times we see that together they stand, separated they fall
[Puma] about the possession of gondolin….and we know over possessivness is never rewarded in jrr
[Demosthenes] Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: ‘Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.’
[Demosthenes] But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it;
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though not a total red herring, they survived and Earendil lived to reach Valinor
[Demosthenes] Also, Maeglin
[Darkover] True, Miriel, but as members of the race of Men, we can’t exactly criticize about that.
[miriel] true ;)
[Darkover] That rat. I don’t blame him for caving under torture, but I do blame him for not warning the others when he returned.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: I wonder if ulmo had some weird matchmaking plan. What did Ulmo know?
[Darkover] He wanted Idril for himself, and he didn’t care how many had to die.
[Demosthenes] maybe that’s reaching
[miriel] I agree: cracking during the torture, but not shouting: they found out!!! when he returned, now that is unforgiveable
[Puma] remember….though elves live long….they only have childrn for a short span of those yrs….so an elf can be 5000 yrs old.still only have 3 offspring
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe Ulmo knew there was a possibility if Tuor went to Gondolin, therefore he pushed, but ultimately it was Tuor and Idril’s choice.
[Puma] ulmo knew best the music
[miriel] indeed: K stratege: live long, get few offspring and invest a lot in those few
[Darkover] Which is one reason why, Puma–and I’m not trying to be risque or funny–I suspect Elves’ sex drive must be almost nonexistent, compared to mortals.
[Demosthenes] Ulmo arranges the pieces, but the pieces still have to do what they’re supposed to. We saw that Turgon didn’t.
[miriel] while men could get many, and therefore likely one of them would survive
[Puma] jrr explains all that in HOME.morgoths ring
[Darkover] I think Mimi_Sardina has it right
[Mimi_Sardinia] Being immortal, if they kept breeding, they’d have over-population issues.
* Puma nods
[miriel] possibly Mimi_Sardinia
[Darkover] Right
[brennil] they also had more important things than children
[miriel] and indeed, Mimi_Sardinia
[Puma] but jrr said longeval.not immortal
[Puma] the elder children were never fated to dominate the earth….but to bring it beauty
[Mimi_Sardinia] You sure Puma? Every reading I’ve made said immortal.
[miriel] well, if we are picking on words, but practically it was almost the same: without outside factors, they live as long as arda stands
[Puma] he corrected it in morgoths ring
[Mimi_Sardinia] What miriel said.
[miriel] they only die of sorrow, or wounds
[Puma] their fea lives as long as arda
[Puma] not necessarily their hroa
[Darkover] I agree with mimi. Elves can be killed, of course, or they can “fade” in a manner that apparently Men cannot, but in the normal course of events, they are Immortal, I think
[Puma] they actually do age
* miriel nods at Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ahh, well either way, they have lives thousands of years long. Cirdan is something like 11 thousand and still going.
[Puma] jrr does explain in writting most dont read
[Mimi_Sardinia] So even if they’re not *exactly* immortal, they couldn’t breed willy-nilly.
[Puma] cirdan is older than 11000 yrs
[miriel] indeed, the main point still stands: if they got kids like Men, arda would perish under them
[Darkover] Well, he wrote, rewrote, and contradicted himself a lot, Puma, so it is hard sometimes to know what canon is, and what it is not.
[Darkover] Right, what Miriel said.
[Puma] its not as difficult as some make it darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] So they have a short but happy period where they breed, then lay off and just raise what they’ve had.
[Puma] and do other tasks
[Mimi_Sardinia] And like someone said before, invest in the few they have.
[miriel] yup mimi
[Puma] most elves marry when they are about 50.though of course we know exceptions
[Mimi_Sardinia] pretty much most of the really historic ones delayed.
[Puma] no
[Mimi_Sardinia] “Strange fates” and all that
[Demosthenes] Idril and Tuor definitely have a strange fate.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] (I’m going to segue off that)
[Darkover] Not one that even people with foresight could easily have forseen
[Puma] and they were accepted back to valinor.even though there was a ban
[brennil] a ban on the mortal or on all, including elves?
[miriel] in some ways, they are a bit of a means to an end
[Demosthenes] That seems so weird to me.
[Demosthenes] and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I thought the ban was on all during the First Age
[Puma] they were the ones that get to live long together….while the other 2 jsut had mortal lives
[Darkover] Does that mean he didn’t die, I wonder?
[Mimi_Sardinia] A punishment for the Exodus
[miriel] ah indeed, that is an odd point dems
[Puma] mimi.for all it seems but idril and tuor
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “So it is said” (letter #153)
[Darkover] Besides, I thought the Valar didn’t have the power to withold the “gift to Men”
[miriel] but if they could have gone there, they could have done all the Eärendil-purpose years earlier
[Puma] darkover….the valar had a convo about it .i forget which book….and tuor was granted the life of the eldar….asa counterpoint to beren and luthien
[miriel] does this mean they might actually not have reached valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I think it was interesting to make one of the three couples choose “elf” instead of “man” like Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen.
[Demosthenes] A lot of first age stories have the quality of a folk tale
[miriel] there is no note of Eärendil meeting up with them, for example
[Demosthenes] And that bit more than most i think.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma – that counterpoint was always my reading of it.
[Puma] there is actually a valar convo
[Mimi_Sardinia] That maybe Tuor was a balance to Luthien.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: that’s something to consider
[Darkover] Well, since Idril was full Elf, and Tuor biologically at least was full Man, I don’t believe they would have had a choice, had not one been offered.
[Darkover] Luthien got a choice, because she moved mandos to pity. Arwen got a choice, because although she was mostly Elven, she had Man’s blood.
[miriel] that would make sense as to the Arwen-frodo/bilbo counterpoint “you will take my place” …
[Puma] and also.theycould not do earendils job…..since neither was peredhil
[Puma] actually.arwen could not grant that
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ultimately I think the only one who could really grant it would have been Eru, but He did have ways of communicating with the Valar.
[Darkover] Again, Earendil had the blood of both races
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, the Half-Elven were Earendil and Elwing’s children.
[Darkover] Maybe we’re meant to assume that is what happened, Mimi
[Demosthenes] Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.
[Puma] both easrendil and elwing were peredhil also
[Demosthenes] Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.
[Demosthenes] (food for the discussion)
[miriel] yes, well, I did not mean that they would get immortal life, I meant the taking her place on the ship
[Mimi_Sardinia] I did get told while discussing Bilbo and Frodo that they don’t necessarily get immortality, even though they went to Valinor.
[Puma] yes.only eru could alter fates
[Darkover] That is what I was thinking–it would have to be Eru’s decision, not the Valar’s
[Puma] both bilbo and frodo die
[Puma] jrr said so
[Demosthenes] Yeah, i find that “it is supposed” interesting
[Puma] but i suspect frodo would wait for sam
[brennil] wait…they go to Valinor though right?
[Darkover] I always believed neither Bilbo nor Frodo got immortality; they just got relief from their mortal illnesses, aches, and pains by living in Valinor
[samsbestfriend] yeah, i wouldn’t imagine they’d get immortal life
[miriel] me too Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Yeah, that’s what I got told.
[Tim_Bombadil] The light of Aman was said to hasten the end of life for those of Mortal life
[miriel] to give them immortality, that would make no sense
[samsbestfriend] possibly longer life though
[Darkover] When you think about it, it would be a curse, not a blessing, to be as old as Bilbo, and then be immortal from that time forward.
[miriel] indeed Darkover
[Demosthenes] that’s not a confirmation that the story is actually true. in fact i think it casts some doubt on it.
[Puma] its the deathless that live in aman .not the land itself which confers immortality
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe DID decide with Earendil and Ewing, Demosthenes.
[samsbestfriend] Demosthenes: which story?
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Earendil and Elwing were both half-elven, so they had the choice
[Puma] manwe acts as regent for eru
[brennil] do we have any idea if there is a “place” souls go after death?
[Demosthenes] that “in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.”
[Tim_Bombadil] Frankly…. I think the story of Tuor and Idril is my favorite… even though JRR spent so much more time on Beren and Luthien…. and left so much more to be told about Tuor’s time in Gondolin..
[Darkover] Well, I was thinking that you just told us that–we do pay attention
[samsbestfriend] ah
[miriel] it might be the safety clasue added by the writer just so that readers cannot complain :P
[ChristineGolden] “Manwe gave judgement, and he said: ‘In this matter the power of doom is given to me….”
[Darkover] Why is this one your favorite, Tim?
[Demosthenes] it doesn’t say by whom it was sung.
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor’s character is multifaceted…
[miriel] I think it was sung generally
[Puma] jrr always said there were 3 great stories….tcoh.beren and luthien….and fall of gondolin
[Darkover] Well, since as far as I know, the only One more powerful than Manwe is Illuvatar, that seems self-evident.
[miriel] but they could in fact be asleep on one of those islands on the way to valinor
[Puma] but he seems never to have spent the time on th last that he did on the other 2
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that he sees Turin on his way to Gondolin?
[Mimi_Sardinia] brennil – Elves reside in Mandos, a place definitely located in the World. Men however disappear out of the World, presumably they go to Eru.
[Demosthenes] It might be a tale of Numenor. Tuor was revered there iirc.
[Tim_Bombadil] The story lines that this intersection brings to bear are huge
[brennil] thanks Mimi
[Darkover] Quite so, Tom
[Darkover] This story is a prime example of how one thing can affect so many other things.
[ChristineGolden] As are the story lines that develop from it.
[Darkover] Sorry, “Tim”
[Puma] i dind it interesting also….tuor used an axe…not the usual swords of elvesd and men
[miriel] I find that a very nice linking to the other stories, that they see Turin, and do not know who he is
[Darkover] Maybe he was just better with an axe, Puma
[Puma] no way to know
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that Ulmo had planned Tuor’s fate… and drew him out of hiding with the spring…
[Puma] perhaps
[Puma] but ulmo knew enen b4 turgon founded gondolin
[Demosthenes] Axes make me think of Varangians.
[Tim_Bombadil] Can I ask? Wasn’t Tuor also a musician? Did he not carry a harp with him and sing in the echoing Mountains?
[Puma] he can sing.yes
[Tim_Bombadil] Where Melkor himself pasted his essence in wails of pain from Ungoliant?
[Darkover] He made a song for his son
[miriel] he certainly was fascinated by the sound of the ocean
[miriel] I think this is often linked to music in arda
[Puma] tuors house the house of the swan wing was one of 12 houses of gondolin
[mib_gcihc6] i thought it was hurin who wielded an axe?
[Puma] only in the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] In the Unfinished tails…. it is said that after passing through the gate of the noldor?
[Demosthenes] yes, i think that is right.
[Puma] also gelmir and arimas are a link between turin and tuor…as they had met both
[Tim_Bombadil] whoops./// gtg/// brb/// love this stuff… (That’s also why I like Tuor. He played music. The only other folks I know who JRR wrote in that played music were all smoke and no fire…
[Darkover] bye, Tim!
[Demosthenes] seeya tim!
[Puma] but the best gondolin musician were in the house of the harp
[samsbestfriend] you’d think he’d have more music players since he loves songs so much
[Puma] but most “magic’ is done by singing.there is a lot of singing
[Demosthenes] There is.
[Puma] aragorn sings over frodos wound for instance
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb!
[Demosthenes] And most of the characters can carry a verse or two.
[Puma] Xana!!!!
[Xanaseb] :D hi
[samsbestfriend] not to mention the creation of the world
[Demosthenes] Aragorn does it quite nicely. We see that repeatedly. Tuor has his harp. Not sure about Beren…
[Puma] luthien sang morgoth to sleep
[Xanaseb] this about musicality?
[Puma] hurin sang,played a harp
[ChristineGolden] I guess.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I always felt music ability was something cast as very common.
[Puma] yes
[miriel] oh, as a side note completely off current topic: had not realized that Maeglin was the son of Eöl
[mib_gcihc6] these stories are referred to as lays
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether Idril was musical.
[mib_gcihc6] lays being poems that are sung
[Darkover] Mention was made that Tuor played a harp and sang, and we were weighing in with how many people sang or played instruments, Xanaseb
[Puma] actually idril and tuor was never one of the lays
[Xanaseb] O.o miri, when did you realise?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Not exactly strange though, the Great music aside, music was a way of preserving and transmitting information and history.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Xanaseb] nice Darkover
[Xanaseb] cool point of discussion!
[Darkover] TY, Xanseb
[Demosthenes] Yes that’s right Mimi_Sardinia
[miriel] I thought their fates were so alike, in a way, and looked it up
[samsbestfriend] i heard idril was a good lay though
[Mimi_Sardinia] LOL
[Darkover] And I imagine most Elves could sing or play, given that they had extraordinarily long lives to get good at both.
[miriel] probably
[mib_gcihc6] maglor for instance
[Puma] among elves it was mostly the men who sang….though there are exceptions
[Darkover] I always got the impression that Maglor was the Mozart of the First Age
[Darkover] just a thought
[Puma] other than daeron
[Darkover] quite so, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maglor was also Valinor-born. Valinor residents were always cast as being better at stuff.
[Puma] i wish we had the noldolante
[Mimi_Sardinia] Guidance of the Valar, time to learn, all that.
[Darkover] Me too, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was born in Middle Earth, Mimi, not Valinor.
[Puma] yes.long residence in valinor.people dont realize finwe ruled the noldor longer than any of the hi kings
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though she had exceptional parentage
[Demosthenes] Luthien is unique.
[Demosthenes] heya mibmib
[Puma] luthien was 1/2 maia
[mib_gcihc6] i would have thought finarfin ruled the nolder longer
[mib_gcihc6] while in valinor
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien had personal guidance of a Maia mother, and a father who, though wasn’t a long-term resident, had visited Valinor.
[Puma] finarfin was not accounted hi king
[ChristineGolden] I was addressing Mimi’s point about the best elven artists were always better if they had lived in Valinor.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, what made them unique. Maglin’s treachery. Choices of the Peredhil, and how many in M-E played instruments and/or sang–in a nutshell.
[Puma] the calaquendi did have the greater power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Eol going to Valinor.
[Puma] and elwe though king of the moriquendi was calaquendi
[Puma] eol never did
[Mimi_Sardinia] He didn’t, unless you count Mandos.
[Xanaseb] good point, Eol was always in middle-earth of course.
[Darkover] Another thing about Tuor that I don’t believe any of us have mentioned; he was the one who led the remnants of Gondolin to the mouth of Sirion, and even though he wasn’t an Elf, no one seems to have questioned it.
[Puma] eol was more dwarf like than other elves
[Mimi_Sardinia] Wasn’t Eol a friend of the dwarves?
[ChristineGolden] Well, you just said that Luthien’s father visited Valinor, Mimi.
[mib_gcihc6] maybe after turgon accepted him
[Puma] yes mimi
[Demosthenes] As someone pointed out, it’s very frustratinvg that Tolkien stopped his revision of the fall of gondolin just as Tuor arrived /at/ Gondolin. Because I wonder what else we might have found out sabout Idril had he continued.
[mib_gcihc6] everyone in gondolin followed suit
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien’s father was Elwe, also known as Elu Thongol.
[Puma] the only full gondolin story is in lt2….and it is his most ancient tale
[Demosthenes] yeah it has hollow metal dragons n such. and still not a lot about idril.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elwe was one of the three ambassadors who first went to see what Valinor was like and come back to tell their people it was good.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and to my knowledge, he never visited Valinor, so I’d like your source, Mimi.
[Puma] when reading it.you can see the infuence of ww1 on jrr
[Mimi_Sardinia] Are you still equating Elwe with Eol?
[Demosthenes] Yeah, it’s obvious. Napalm. (or equivalent)
[Puma] christine….what was your question.i missed it
[ChristineGolden] [slaps self] Yes, I am. Sorry about that – I’m awful with names.
[Puma] ah
[Mimi_Sardinia] It might be easy when you compare Elu with Eol
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elu being Elwe’s Sindarin name
[Puma] eol did forge anglachel
[samsbestfriend] i wonder if the fall of gondloin has more power untold
[Puma] well…one thing we dont see in the sil….is all 12 hosues of gondolin
[Puma] houses
[miriel] now I lost the tread… *reads up*
[Puma] jsut golden flower and fountain
[Darkover] I’m back
[mib_gcihc6] house of mole for maeglin
[Darkover] More like house of rat, Mib, IMO
[ChristineGolden] If you look at the Silmarillion ‘love stories,’ you can see them all building to the voyage of Earendil.
[mib_gcihc6] lol
[mibmib] at least you had it in the first place miriel haha
[Puma] but there were survivors from all 12 houses but for the hammer of wrath who all perished
[miriel] indeed chris
[Puma] and there was a legolas in gondolin
[brennil] about Tuor leading elves, it did say he was very well respected among them
[miriel] in fact, all love stories are somehow connected to the silmarils, as well
[brennil] and a glorfindel
[Darkover] Yes, brennil, but being well respected is one thing, the leader of everyone is another
[samsbestfriend] miriel: even romeo and juliet?
[Xanaseb] all of them miri?
[Puma] apparently to the elves of gondolin.the husband of the heir….was also an heir
[Xanaseb] I suppose they are
[Darkover] Of course, a lot of those who might otherwise have been leaders were probably dead, such as poor, valiant Glorfindel
[Xanaseb] pretty interesting that
[miriel] LoL samsbestfriend
[brennil] in an emergency, I’m sure they would accept any leader. especially married to Idril
[Mimi_Sardinia] Beren and Luthien could be seen as a “Romeo and Juliet”
[Darkover] And of course, Idril the heir certainly gave him her support
[Puma] some leaders of other houses survived the fall of gondolin
[Mimi_Sardinia] especially from an elven angle, considering Luthien ended up dying permanently
[Darkover] I didn’t say no one did, Puma, just that a lot most likely were dead
[brennil] except, didn
[brennil] nt die by suicide because they were enflamed teenagers
[Mimi_Sardinia] True brennil, their relationship was far more drawn out and *sensible*
[Demosthenes] All of three great unions have a happy ending. I’d enver thought of that. Odd, when you consider how much of the first age is misery and painful death.
[samsbestfriend] crazy teenagers…
[Demosthenes] They’re little beacons amidst a great wotsit of darkness.
[brennil] why was Beren and Luthien considered such a happy story since they both die?
[Puma] the 3 unions had great purpose
[ChristineGolden] I’d say a bittersweet ending, Demosthenes, because in each romance, one party is sundered from their kin.
[ChristineGolden] Agree, Puma.
[miriel] they get together in the end, though
[miriel] and get a kid
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I suspect a lot of happy things transpired in the First Age that we didn’t hear about. Doesn’t Tolkien in “The Hobbit” say something about how when times are good and people are happy, there isn’t much to write about, but it is otherwise when bad things happen?
[Demosthenes] Nothing comes without cost? That’s part of living. Even for an elf, i guess.
[miriel] the kid being the main point
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes , brennil – because all three ended up with the same fate
[Xanaseb] and they live for a looong time
[Xanaseb] right?
[miriel] ultimately, for all living beings, getting offspring is the most important
[Xanaseb] in secret mostly
[ChristineGolden] But the “ever” doesn’t seem to last very long in their “happy ever afters,” miriel.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth. they are the up-points amidst a lot of sorrow though.
[Darkover] And the end of this chapter serves to remind us that the Oath of the Silmarils has been awakened again
[Darkover] No denying that, Demosthenes
[Puma] its one of jrrs main themes….modes of death or not
[Puma] the fate of each kindred
[samsbestfriend] thats a good point
[ChristineGolden] His Catholicism rearing its head again, Puma.
[Puma] also…..to jrr a good human….knew the time to die….and did it of free will
[Puma] nnot counting war of course
[Mimi_Sardinia] accepting death with dignity
[Puma] aragorn reinstituted that after a long hiatus
[Mimi_Sardinia] even war could be seen that way – dying for what you believe in
[Darkover] True, mimi
[Puma] agreed mimi
[miriel] true mimi
[miriel] and as an aswer to the short happily ever after: they are unlikely to happen, and just plain boring to write, though? :P jk jk
[ChristineGolden] And read. ;)
[Demosthenes] Ah but where will they live?
[Demosthenes] Was that sam? i forget.
[miriel] lol dems
[miriel] yes, it was
[Puma] when you look at the whole saga.jrr always has a reciprocal….idril and tuor are the recipricol to beren and luthien
[ChristineGolden] But I think it’s more than just that… if you look at the book, the pace begins to really pick up with this tale to the fall of Morgoth. I think any “happy ever afters” would have disrupted that.
[Puma] well yes.fall of gondolin was in fa 509 i believe
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah i hadn’t considere dthat until Mimi_Sardinia mentioned that tuor balances luthien
[Darkover] I wonder sometimes if it is Men who get the “happily ever after” in the end, while the Elves, who may seem to have the better deal, just get “contented ever after.”
[Puma] war of wrath began in 547 i think
[miriel] indeed: the unlikely to happen was pointing to that
[Tim_Bombadil] The “Gift of Men” Darkover…
[Puma] thats the recipricol darkover the fates of the 2 kindreds
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – that what I always felt JRR was trying to put across.
[Elentari] what are we talking about?
[Darkover] Right, Tim, because after all, no one really knows what happens after that.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, and what led from that, Elentari
[Demosthenes] You can’t think that’s not deliberate.
[Tim_Bombadil] Not all of the Valar came to the Earth..
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Puma] no
[Xanaseb] I think they did
[miriel] I agree Darkover
[Puma] not all of the ainu came to earth
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Xanaseb] not all of the ainur though
[Mimi_Sardinia] No Tim_Bombadil , not all the *Ainur* came into the World
[Xanaseb] yup, indeed Puma.
[Mimi_Sardinia] *Valar* is the name of the upper level Ainur who did
[Puma] but the valar were bound then to arda.till the end
[Elentari] oh right Darkover thanks
[samsbestfriend] isnt is weird disucssing the higher mysterieds of this world when we dont even understand them of our own?
[Puma] jrr was a window to that sbf
[brennil] maybe they help us understand them in our own world
[Mimi_Sardinia] maybe because the higher mysteries of fiction are easier to understand than RL ones.
[Demosthenes] Maybe both.
[Mimi_Sardinia] And what brennil said.
[brennil] and they’re more fun :)
[Darkover] Not really, samsbestfriend. As Brennil just observed, they can help us understand the mysteries of our own.
[ChristineGolden] It’s a book.
[Darkover] But a darned good book, Chris
[brennil] so what?
[Puma] a good book
[samsbestfriend] can they? really?
[brennil] really. If I weren’t being lazy I
[brennil] would quote C.S. Lewis here
[Puma] they dont help us solve the mystery….but perhaps to view it
[ChristineGolden] Of course, Puma. I meant that we’re not discussing an alternative universe, but a piece of lit (in response to samsbestfriend).
[Mimi_Sardinia] well if you acknowledge the fact that a lot of the moral codes in the Silm are heavily based on JRR’s -very christian- beliefs then the moral codes and higher mysteries of the Silm show us what JRR thought about life.
[Puma] jrr wanted us to discuss the issue….was his purpose…so we are doing good
[Darkover] Besides, enjoying Tolkien, or any other fiction, is like when people complain that it is “just a story.” As long as we have a good story to appreciate, isn’t that enough? Why does it have to be “more?”
[Puma] all good stories…live because they are applicable
[Demosthenes] Both answers are legitimate. You can have “more” and you can have “just the story”. Either is legtimate.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes. But I don’t believe the story is insignificant
[Puma] in 100 yrs people will still be discussing jrr
[samsbestfriend] yeah, but tokien was just a man
[brennil] a genius of a man
[Mimi_Sardinia] He was just a man who was a good writer.
[Darkover] Again with the “just,” sam. What is your point?
[Puma] but he left some great thoughts for us to discuss
[ChristineGolden] Hmmm, I’d say that a good book involves more than just a great plot, Darkover. Are we talking about the same thing?
[samsbestfriend] its not like he has any more insight into life and death than any one else
[brennil] or did he?
[Puma] he did not
[Puma] but he put the issue there for us to have discourse about
[Mimi_Sardinia] samsbestfriend maybe he didn’t, but what he did have he was good at conveying in his writing.
[Demosthenes] And different is always food for thought.
[samsbestfriend] Puma: i will agree wiht taht much
[miriel] I agree with samsbestfriend, tolkien was great, but not allknowing
[lunarising] I think he did – I’d think anyone who’s seen war and death would have a better insight on those issues
[Darkover] Actually, Chris, I think there is a lot more to Tolkien’s writings than plot or story, but my point is, when a piece of fiction has a good plot/story, that is all it is required to have. If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage.
[Demosthenes] If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage. [-- yeah, this.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – I like what you say.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Mimi
[Puma] jrrs saga lives…thru us.who have discourse
[Xanaseb] true about him not having more insight than others, but *having* insight, and *putting* it to paper in such a way are different things IMO
[ChristineGolden] Ahh, okay, Darkover. I would say that a good plot/story is created by the other elements in the book.
[Xanaseb] conveying something
[Darkover] Miriel, no one said Tolkien was all-knowing, but he knew a darn sight more than most people, IMO
[Xanaseb] is important, and tough thing in fiction really
[Puma] and some would say much of jrrs saga is quite plotless
[Darkover] And he could write a lot better than most, too
[Demosthenes] Do we have any final points about our topic btw? Not that this isn’t cool, but we’ve drifted.
[Darkover] Some criticize anything they can’t do themselves, Puma
[ChristineGolden] I have a question! (don’t I always?)
[Puma] ask away
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma I don’t think it was plotless so much as it had so many plots that sometimes you lose track of them all.
[Puma] some parts were plotless
[Darkover] what’s your question, Chris?
[Demosthenes] ask away ChristineGolden!
[ChristineGolden] Well, we’re doing the “three great romances,” right? What I wonder is why isn’t Earendil/Elwing included in there?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes In the end we really don’t know if Tuor was granted immortality. It is only said by those who remain in Middle-earth.
[Puma] because they were both peredhil
[miriel] because three sounds better than four :P jk jk
[Puma] so not eladar and edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] But the idea that he was makes a good story.
[Darkover] Maybe because while they did have to make an important choice in the end, it was not a choice directly connected to their romance.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil was half-elven/half-man, plus they had to make the same choice as the others.
[Puma] elwing was 1/2 elven
[Puma] as was earendil
[Mimi_Sardinia] Plus I still think the idea of Tuor’s fate being a balance of Luthien’s makes it seem rounded.
[Darkover] They were both kind of quick to abandon their kids, IMO. Just a pet peeve of mine.
[Demosthenes] Are you asking if we could chat about Earendil and Elwing? Ansnwer: sure. As for why it’s not great … that is an interesting one as the pair arguably accomplish as much or more than idril and tuor.
[Puma] but mithrellas/imrazor is not considered eldar/edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] I’d like that chat.
[ChristineGolden] mine, too, Darkover. “here’s my kid, gotta go~ ~ ~”
[Demosthenes] “great”
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Xanaseb] lolol.
[ChristineGolden] No, although we could, I just wondered why they weren’t included in what’s commonly called ‘the three great romances.”
[Darkover] I think we have probably exhausted the Idril-Tuor discussion
[Puma] agreed darkover
[Demosthenes] Okay, we may do Earlendil and Elwing after Aragorn and Arwen then.
[Puma] the 3 great romances were eldar/edain.otheer grat romances were not
[Darkover] This discussion has been good, as always
[ChristineGolden] Thanks, Puma, I try. ;)
[brennil] these non-LotR discussions don’t attract as many people
[Puma] ty Demz.great job
[Puma] and ty all here for a great discussion
[Demosthenes] Back to Towers next week though.
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: two towers. treebeard.’
Session Close: Sun Apr 14 09:39:32 2013

Posted in Barlimans, Green Books, Hall of Fire, J.R.R. Tolkien, Other Tolkien books, Silmarillion on April 13, 2013 by

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