Log of Hall of Fire’s Uruk-hai chat
A little earlier, Hall of Fire regulars and guests concluded a lively discussion about The Uruk-hai, the chapter of The Two Towers where Merry and Pippin escape from the clutches of the orcs. For those who missed it, here’s a log to peruse.
Next weekend, we’ll be discussing the second of the three great unions of elves and humans: Idril and Tuor.
Session Start: Sun Apr 07 07:17:43 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] okay. let’s begin? others can catch up. 😉
[Puma] well….to start with.in general i consider this to be pippins chapter….but also a good look at orc culture
[Demosthenes] I’ve always thought that as much as the chapter is about Merry and Pippin, it’s the orcs who are kinda the stars here?
[Demosthenes] puma: i guess those two points are related
[Demosthenes] I wonder why the orcs really come through
[Susanita] hey pete
[Demosthenes] . ‘Lie quiet, or I’ll tickle you with this,’ he hissed. ‘Don’t draw attention to yourself, or I may forget my orders. Curse the Isengarders! Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai’:
[Puma] the 3 groups of orcs came for various reasons
[lini_b] pippin shows himself to be a lot more than just a frivolous kid on a lark
[Pete_away] Hoy, Susanita, how are you?
[Susanita] easy for you to say
[Demosthenes] There’s a real … life to them?
[Jenniearcheo] How much orc speech do we get? Is this it in the book?
[Demosthenes] not a lot jennie
[miriel] love the use of untranslated black speech
[Puma] this was jrr’s 1st real attemp to show orc culture
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from what’s on the ring, of course
[Demosthenes] there’s also “snaga” meaning slave
[Demosthenes] that’s later in ROTK
[Jenniearcheo] The fact that the apparent tribes couldn’t speak each other’s language was interesting
[Erestel] Gandalf reveals that “Ghash” is “fire” in the Black Speech, but that’s all I know.
[miriel] it is used in several places, dems
[Puma] no.snaga is in this chapter also
[Darkover] Greetings, all! Sorry to be late.
[Demosthenes] oh, it is?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] skai is, i think, a name.
[miriel] I know, because I listed it as a name by mistake
[Darkover] Hiya, Jennie!
[miriel] Darkover 🙂
[Demosthenes] this is the final translation of that phrase: “Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth.
[Demosthenes] Dung-heap. Skai!”.
[miriel] puma 🙂
[miriel] Skai! might be a curse
[Demosthenes] (from parma eldalamberon 17)
[Puma] and jrr said he cleaned up the translation
[Darkover] “Snaga” isn’t exactly a name, as I recall, I think it meant “slave,” and was a form of address from a more powerful orc to a weaker.
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think i read that via AFT/RABT too
[miriel] indeed, I lost two “named” characteres when I discovered it
[Demosthenes] probably in their FAQ
[Puma] also.in lotr jrr gives many orcs names….and they interact….he had never done that be4
[Jenniearcheo] Orcs have an FAQ?
[Erestel] “I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ‘ghash’: that is ‘fire’.” Spoken by Gandalf after he left the Chamber of Mazarbul before the Balrog arrived.
[Elemmire] there isn’t really that much Black Speech in lotr
[Darkover] Saruman also apparently got his nickname “Sharkey,” from the Orcish “sharku,” “old man.”
[Demosthenes] jennie is right. orcs are really tribal, and this shows through in the language. I guess Tolkien would have thought that a very natural way that such tribalness would have exhibited itself.
[Demosthenes] slang … dialest variations
[Demosthenes] and having to converse through common
[Puma] yes.they needed westron to talk tribe to tribe
[Demosthenes] to understand each other
[Demosthenes] a kind of lingua franca
[Elemmire] hmm, id forgotten that. its an interesting point
[Susanita] that was interesting to me
[Darkover] Well, also, Sam had to be able to understand them–in a later chapter–and he was able to do so because the orcs were speaking a form of the Common Tongue
[Darkover] because so many different tribes were present
[Puma] well……sam had the ring then
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! it makes it easier for both tolkien and us too. at a mechanical level.
[Puma] so different case
[Darkover] Right, the reader needed to understand them, too!
[miriel] tolkien never clearly states it, though, that it is just the ring, and not common
[Puma] jrr at times did not care if we understood
[Demosthenes] Do you guys agree that Tolkien’s uruks — as we see them here — are very lively and vivid?
[Jenniearcheo] The ring is why Bilbo can understand the spiders, yes?
[Darkover] I certainly agree, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] They’re certainly tough. Tougher than the smaller orcs they see as “maggots”
[Darkover] In this chapter, for the first time IMO, they seem like people–ugly, mean, vicious, debased people, but still people
[Puma] only the isengard uruks…although grishnakh was likely a mordor uruk
[miriel] I guess so, Jenniearcheo. But then, what about Shelob?
[Jenniearcheo] they do value the Moria orcs’ being able to see in the dark, though
[Susanita] and the bit about running in daylight
[Jenniearcheo] She wasn’t chatty
[Demosthenes] Why? Is it something in the prose? is it because the whole chapter is a power-play between the orc factions? is it something else?
[miriel] lol jennie
[Susanita] it sinks in how much Saruman means to be a usurper
[Puma] it is that….and we see pippin is clever….and smart…b4 that he had not been much use
[Darkover] Maybe it is because they *do* seem to be part of tribes, to have some sense–at least, among the Uruks–of duty, and they show a lot of emotion
[miriel] I think he does a great work of shoving how split and divided and unloyal the “dark side” is
[Darkover] all that seems to make them more like people, rather than cardboard villains
[Darkover] That too, Miriel, you’re quite right
[Demosthenes] miriel: it is very different to the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Underscored, miriel, by the two in Mordor who were going to “go someplace quiet and set up” something, but then fell to fighting
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. These Orcs may seem like people, but that doesn’t mean they are decent or nice people.
[Demosthenes] it reminds me of a line from one of Mel Brooks’ movies “all for one, and each man for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] Not very nice, at all, precious
[Puma] orc culture is a debased one
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes, very true
[Demosthenes] (that’s pretty much orcs to a T)
[Darkover] Quite so, Puma–and indeed, they only exist because long ago, they were debased Elves–and maybe Men
[Demosthenes] puma: on the other hand, it also makes me think of Gandalf’s line: “for myself, i pity even his [Sauron’s] slaves”
[Demosthenes] and i think Gandalf meant orcs as well there
[Puma] but aragorn was wrong on 1 guess….he did not think orcs would be told of ring….but it seems ugluk and grishnakh knew of it
[Darkover] I can kind of understand Gandalf’s attitude, Demosthenes. Orcs never had much choice to be other than what they were.
[Elemmire] yep. you do kinda feel sorry for the orcs being bulllied
[Demosthenes] Because I think here we see simultaneously that the orcs have something .. .and yet nothing at the same time.
[Asmodean] they did not know of the ring i think
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be defeated.
[Susanita] they knew of SOMETHING
[Susanita] not necessarily the Ring
[Darkover] Interesting observation, Demosthenes
[Puma] the war is won with pity….gandalf is the embodiment of that
[Darkover] I don’t feel too sorry for the bullied orcs, Elemmire, because they would unhesitatingly bully others if they could.
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin tests Grishnakh and it does seem he recognizes “Gollum” and “precious”
[Demosthenes] They have energy … they have a great lust for life … you see it in how they interact .. yet they are unable to do anything positive with it.
[miriel] indeed, so he must have had info
[Darkover] The war is won with courage, determination, and a certain amount of fighting and killing, too, Puma. Let’s not forget *that.*
[Elemmire] fair enough. but we dont like being bullied
[Puma] but pity was the key
[Jessy] I heard somewhere, though haven’t read the original, that in one of his letters, Tolkien expressed an interest in making the orcs less doomed to evil
[Elemmire] it isn’t really the orcs fault
[Puma] well…..he wrote many versions of orc origins
[Jenniearcheo] It seems that the orcs have little in the way of culture. In social rules, beyond what the boss orders
[Darkover] That sounds like Tolkien, Jessy, because as a devout Catholic, he would have had problems believing anyone was bad from the very beginning
[Darkover] That sounds about right, jennie
[Puma] and they were an example of morgoths power….jrr said maybe the worst of morgoths perversions
[Erestel] That belief is specifically stated by Elrond as well, Darkover. Something along the lines of “Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think i’d agree with that. they make food and drink of a sort. they make crude weapons. do they make songs? do they write? what is orc downtime?
[Darkover] Right, Erestel
[Elemmire] yep jennie. except when there are too msny bosses
[Puma] i doubt that they write
[Puma] but they do sing
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the orcs write, or make any songs worth listening to
[Darkover] People that debased don’t usually have a lot of creativity
[Elemmire] the orcs are less complex than the goblins. we know that they are good at making things
[Erestel] Down, down, to Goblin Town! You go, my lad!
[Demosthenes] maybe they make dubstep
[miriel] they could write curses and stuff
[Darkover] unless it comes to different methods of killing and torture
[miriel] but books, unlikely
[Puma] orcs=goblins….they are the same thing
[Jenniearcheo] Well, the goblins in The Hobbit can, on occasion, be persuaded to sing
[Susanita] orc singing like vogon poetry?
[Jenniearcheo] But it’s all “Crack snap the black crack” sort of thing
[Darkover] Not quite, I think, Puma. I could be wrong, but
[Jessy] Susanita: love it!
[Jenniearcheo] Singing about how nice it’ll be to torture their victims
[Puma] quite Darkover
[miriel] LoL Susanita
[Elemmire] lots of people do that jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh true. that had a kind of charm … but i maintain that the writer of the hobbit is an unreliable narrator prone to exaggeration. 🙂
[Darkover] I always got the impression goblins were weaker, more inclined to fear daylight, less hardy and not as good at fighting, as orcs.
[Puma] goblin is the hobbit word for orc
[Darkover] Maybe goblins are descended from Men, and orcs from Elves. Just a thought
[Elemmire] well, the goblins in the hobbit are different
[Demosthenes] and the account of the hobbit is not entirely to be trusted as a result
[Puma] no they are not
[Elemmire] cos they are skilled
[Elemmire] and can make stuff
[Jenniearcheo] I think goblins are basically orcs, but the ones from “the north” were from caverns and better at seeing in the dark.
[Erestel] Goblins and orcs are the same. Azog is called a goblin in The Hobbit and a great orc in The Lord of the Rings. Orcs come in many shapes and sizes, though.
[Puma] but i am just going by what jrr himself said….you dont have to believe jrr if you dont want to
[Elemmire] a kind of orc then
[Jenniearcheo] He contradicts himself from time to time. Humans are allowed this luxury
[Elfriend] I always thought that Goblins were a weaker, perhaps younger form of Orc.
[lini_b] me too Elfriend
[miriel] weaker, yes, but younger? I do not know
[Susanita] oh hey Elfriend
[Puma] the only truely superior orcs in jrr were baldogs
[Elfriend] Hello 🙂
[Demosthenes] I also wonder at the great endurance of the orcs. The Three Hunters as we saw travelled 130 miles in four days. That’s an effort worthy of a roman legionary. These orcs go farther — much farther in the same time.
[Jessy] Jenniearcheo: in Tolkien, aren’t contradictions just another word for re-write?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did a deal of ret-conning
[Darkover] If you mean “balrogs,” Puma, they weren’t orcs at all, but some kind of demon
[Erestel] I dunno about baldogs. Balrogs were corrupt Maia (lesser gods), not orcs.
[Elemmire] werent balrogs maia?
[Puma] baldogs….minor maia in orc form
[Elfriend] Food chain Goblins-Orcs-Uruk Hai
[Puma] balrogs are not baldogs
[Jenniearcheo] I wouldn’t get a bald dog. Unless I hated pet hair
[Darkover] Well, as detailed as Tolkien’s writings were, it seems improbable he wouldn’t make the occasional error
[Elemmire] what are baldongs
[Susanita] chihuahuas are bald
[Elemmire] lol susa
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, but they just yap
[Susanita] they want Taco Bell
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . Goblins
[Puma] and orcs were all orcs….they varied in size and strenght
[Puma] uruk-hai is translated orc people
[Jenniearcheo] So the Uruks overtake the Mordor orcs on the run
[Elemmire] theyre stronger
[Elemmire] and can run in daylight
[Darkover] and don’t fear daylight
[Jenniearcheo] What was I reading? Some of the Mordor orcs run off and then come back?
[Puma] the mordor orc did not do well in the sun.as with many orcs
[Susanita] and there were Orcs from Moria too?
[Demosthenes] Three groups of orcs
[Demosthenes] three factions
[Puma] i meant the moria orcs
[Jenniearcheo] It sounded like the Moria orcs didn’t like the idea of running in the daylight, but Ugluk wasn’t taking a vote
[Demosthenes] they wilt
[Puma] the uruks did not like the sun either….but they could tolerate it
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin really comes into his own in this chapter. For the first time.
[Demosthenes] a bit like sunflowers
[Susanita] hi Baumbart
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[Darkover] Hello, Baumbart
[Elemmire] hmm. this is where i start to like Pippin
[Jenniearcheo] hello Baumbart
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah … which is interesting considering he has his own self-doubt at the start of the chapter
[Demosthenes] let me find the quote
[Darkover] Pippin does seem to become a real member of the Fellowship in this chapter
[Demosthenes] He could not answer the questions. He felt cold and sick. ‘I wish Gandalf had never persuaded Elrond to let us come,’ he thought. ‘What good have I been? Just a nuisance: a passenger, a piece of luggage. And now I have been stolen and I am just a piece of luggage for the Orcs.
[Demosthenes] Bold hard halfling, or piece of luggage?
[Puma] other than pippins affability we have not seen his talents b4
[Elemmire] yeah. but he’s more useful that merry
[miriel] maybe that very insight is what makes him likeable
[Demosthenes] then this:
[Darkover] I think Pippin himself didn’t know he had talents, until this quest
[Demosthenes] I hope Strider or someone will come and claim us! But ought I to hope for it? Won’t that throw out all the plans? I wish I could get free!’
[Elemmire] merry is probably the least develpoed hobbit
[miriel] before it, he is just annoying
[Demosthenes] But ought I to hope for it?
[Darkover] That is a very mature thought on Pippin’s part
[Elemmire] he appreciates how important the ring quest is
[miriel] indeed, very self-sacrificing there
[Puma] merry was out cold….he had been injured fighting…pippin had not fought orcs at amon hen
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. He also takes the initiative a couple of times
[Jenniearcheo] With the pin, the hand binding, the fleeing
[lini_b] it’s no longer just a silly adventure – he starts to grow up
[Jenniearcheo] And, of course, the lembas
[Demosthenes] jennie: is that why he takes the initiative do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] I think for the first time he had no leader
[Demosthenes] this realisation about the importance of the quest?
[Jenniearcheo] And even Merry was out cold. He was forced to think on his feet, on his own, perhaps for the first time ever
[Jessy] When Pippin runs out to drop his leaf broach, it was brave, but do you think it useful?
[Elemmire] he realises that he probably has to get out of this himself
[Jenniearcheo] He was a rich kid, a bit spoilt. Probably with servants his whole life
[Pete_away] Pippin? This was the first time that he wasn’t subservient to everyone else
[Darkover] It turned out that it was, Jessy, and it was something to do, so he did it
[Puma] at teh beginning of the chapter….we get out last live glimpse of boromir….in his finest moment….and the orcs say…they were told to kill all but halflings….but due to boromir….they fled b4 other help arrived…not giving orcs chance to search out more
[Darkover] I think “subservient” is a bit harsh, Pete. Maybe as the youngest, Pip was just used to letting others lead the way.
[Darkover] And now Pippin had to rely on himself, so he showed some initiative
[Jessy] But it only shows that the hobbits were still alive. Aragorn would have followed them either way.
[Puma] so we saw for the last time….how important boromir was
[Demosthenes] Or as Aragorn speculated, do they think they have their prey?
[Demosthenes] oh .. it’s hobbits. let’s went.
* Pete_away is now known as Pete-DOH
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin could tell that their footprints were being trampled by . . . iron? shoes
[Puma] yes.iron shoes
[Darkover] That probably had a lot to do with it, Demosthenes. Apparently no one told them how *many* halflings there were.
[Puma] oh.i think they knew
[Demosthenes] ‘Orders.’ said a third voice in a deep growl. ‘Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That’s my orders.’
[Puma] there were orc spies all along the anduin
[miriel] the orcs must be extremely well trained if they can run with iron shoes
[Jenniearcheo] These were the only hobbits they found
[Darkover] If they knew, puma, why wasn’t anyone saying; “We only have two, better find where the other two went”
[Puma] the orcs knew how many were in the fellowship
[miriel] very simple orders, do you think it is due to lack of language-knowledge, or lack of IQ?
[lini_b] they’re strong not bright
[Puma] because they had paid such a great price in death from boromir
[Asmodean] they couldn’t have known
[Puma] boromir killed more than 20
[Darkover] Again, did they? And even if they knew how many people were in the fellowship, that doesn’t mean the orcs knew how many were hobbits.
* Asmodean is now known as lasak
[Demosthenes] They have street-smarts at least
[Elemmire] Piipin is so worried that the men of Rohan won’t know they are hobbits. So, how do the orcs/uruk-hai know?
[Puma] so after they paid the death price.they assumed!!!!!!
[Puma] and we all know what happens when you assume
[Pete-DOH] The must have hear from Saruman, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] If they knew there were two missing hobbits, wouldn’t they have sent a squad to search for them?
[Darkover] The orcs knew halflings when they saw them, and indeed had specific orders about them.
* lorienslady is now known as lori_dinner
[Elfriend] Being an Orc, I’d imagine one would learn quickly 🙂
[Demosthenes] I didn’t think the Rohirrim even saw the halflings.
[Puma] its a complex point
[Darkover] The Rohirrim were killing right and left, and didn’t know about the prisoners. It would have been easy for the hobbits to be killed by mistake, Elmmire
[Pete-DOH] No, Dems, it was dark, rght?
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire
[Puma] well.not so easy………the cloaks
[Demosthenes] dark, and they had those lorien cloaks to boot.
[lini_b] the rohirrim didnt believe the legends of halflings
[Jenniearcheo] The hobbits were in the woods by the time the rohirrim attacked
[Puma] m and p ran right up to the orcs b4 they were seen
[Pete-DOH] By a horse with great eyesight avoided pippin
[Jenniearcheo] or some sense
[Pete-DOH] Remember Jennie that Pippin almost got stomped on
[Demosthenes] Horses will try to avoid running over ppl iirc.
[Demosthenes] So that makes sense.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, but the rider didn’t see him
[Puma] this was something the movies never showed….how many times the cloaks worked for the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Horses, perhaps, have an innate sense
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the black gate
[Pete-DOH] Right, Puma, just once in the ee of ROTK
[Demosthenes] i like this:
[Puma] that 1 time
[Demosthenes] ‘Hullo, Pippin!’ he said. ‘So you’ve come on this little expedition, too? Where do we get bed and breakfast?’
[Pete-DOH] Merry was great
[Darkover] Pippin himself was thinking that he and Merry might be killed, before the attackers of the orcs knew they were there.
[Puma] shows even in the worst conditions….merry has a good attitude
[Jenniearcheo] Merry with a brown scar all his days
[Demosthenes] very droll; very dry humour.
[Pete-DOH] movie aside–Dom and Billy were casting genius
[Jessy] Demosthenes: That’s one of my favorite lines in the whole book!
[Susanita] they didn’t have their guide book to B&Bs in Middle Earth
[Puma] now.dom and billy look nothing like hobbits
[Jenniearcheo] They used peach juice and cola syrup for the orc draught. It made Dom gag
[Darkover] And Pippin wished he had paid better attention at Rivendell, but business had always seemed to be in more capable hands. Another sign that he is growing up, coming into his own.
[Darkover] Wouldn’t it make *you* gag, Jennie?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Darkover
[Puma] but merry had studied the maps
[lini_b] but merry was paying attention
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Very likely
[Jenniearcheo] But Merry was inconveniently unconscious
[Puma] so point is.they are better together than separate….
[Elemmire] pippin really does start to grow up in this chapter
[Puma] only later when they have grown can they operate apart
[Jenniearcheo] Generally true
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gotta look out for himself now. no-one’s going to hold his hand for him.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s almost as if Pippin wakes up in this chapter. As though he’s been dozing until now
[Demosthenes] well, the orcs kinda do for a bit, but that’s not at all pleasant.
[PippinForTheWin] like he realizes now what hes gotten himself in to
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well phrased
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: it’s not a hobbit walking party.
[Elfriend] Again I hear Elronds words “we will trust to a friendship rather than great wisdom.”
[Elemmire] hmm-merry and pip need their frienship
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: that’s a good thought.
[Darkover] Friendship is a big part of LotR
[Elemmire] it is
[PippinForTheWin] its what lotr is all about
[Demosthenes] notice that pippin feels reassured when he sees merry is with him.
[Demosthenes] in a “we’re all in this together” kind of way
[PippinForTheWin] if frodo and sam werent friends, what ould happen?
[Elemmire] they are better together
[Elemmire] both pairs of them
[Puma] sam was frodos servant
[Jenniearcheo] Better together, and definitely better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] better than orc drink?
[PippinForTheWin] when in the movie pippin leaves with gandalf to go to minas tirith you feel the pain
[Elemmire] anyone’s better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] i wonder what the orc drink was
[Jenniearcheo] More whoelsome
[Jenniearcheo] Best not to know
[Demosthenes] cheap gin? fosters?
[lini_b] lol Demosthenes
[Elemmire] something unpleasant
[Pete-DOH] dirty water, alcohol, and prune juice
[Demosthenes] some sort of moonshine i guess
[Puma] an energy drink….they sell them all over now
[Darkover] but effective, whatever it was
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that Merry was going to try to drink from the River but Pippin was in charge and said, “Not here, the banks are too steep. Forward now!”
[Elfriend] All this time they have been selling the UK Orc beer.. how very clever of them.
[Pete-DOH] yes, Jennie, role reversal
[lini_b] i wouldn’t mind a bit – my house is a mess i need energy
[Jenniearcheo] At least for now
[Demosthenes] Seizing him roughly Uglúk pulled him into a sitting position, and tore the bandage off his head. Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box. Merry cried out and struggled wildly.
[Demosthenes] The Orcs clapped and hooted. ‘Can’t take his medicine,’ they jeered. ‘Doesn’t know what’s good for him. Ai! We shall have some fun later.’
[Elemmire] isn’t pip the youngest of all the hobbits?
[Puma] but then they will switch and merry will be in charge
[Demosthenes] same with the orc medicine.
[Darkover] He is, Elemmire
[Puma] yes.pip is youngest
[PippinForTheWin] yeah hes the youngest
[Darkover] Hardly more than a boy by hobbit standards
[PippinForTheWin] the most innocent
[Elemmire] so he really is doing well
[Erestel] Yup, the youngest of the four. He hadn’t come of age when he joined the group.
[Darkover] I would say so. He’s not quite the foolish hobbit he was portrayed as in the movies.
[Puma] but remember…….merry and pippin were form the 2 great power wielding shire families….as close to royalty as shire has
[Puma] so not ordinary hobbits
[Pete-DOH] Pippin has only one real bonehead move left, right? The palantir
[Jenniearcheo] Billy said he felt Pippin didn’t feel “part of the story” until the Palantir incident
[Demosthenes] I noted that even Pippin didn’t really know why he and merry had run off at Parth Galen.
[Elemmire] yep, i can see that
[Darkover] Doesn’t mean they would necessarily have risen to the occasion, Puma. Birth isn’t everything, even in M-E
[Puma] billie was wrong as usual
[Demosthenes] they just … did.
[Jenniearcheo] I noticed that, Dems
[Demosthenes] a bit like Boromir’s madness
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think he was wrong, Puma
[Elemmire] no me neither puma
[Demosthenes] is there a link?
[Demosthenes] or maybe not?
[Jenniearcheo] Do you attribute that to . . . Illuvatar?
[Demosthenes] Of course: he and Merry had run off into the woods. What had come over them? Why had they dashed off like that, taking no notice of old Strider?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed to be off by themselves, because they needed to be captured to get the Ents moving
[Puma] they were better educated and more worldly than most hobits…they had a better chance
[Erestel] It was the will of the Force.
[PippinForTheWin] illuvatar? we’re entering silmarillion territory now
[Puma] of course there is free will
[Elemmire] or panic
[Jenniearcheo] If we’re supposing that there’s an unseen hand at work, it’s either Illuvatar or Sauron. I’d rather hope it were the former
[Darkover] Erestel, I think JRR would wince at providence/God being referred to as “the Force”
[Pete-DOH] Iluvatar, or the Valar, maybe
[laughing_gull] I was gonna say, I think irrational reasons, but also for plot reasons
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr……but not in this instance
[Jenniearcheo] Same force that led Frodo to the chair
[Pete-DOH] Darkover, you don’t think the professor would like Star Wars? 😉
[Elemmire] where are the valar active in lotr ouma?
[Demosthenes] More seriously, Aragorn said that a force was slowing them and implied it was Saruman. Maybe a similar influence was working on the Fellowship at Parth Galen?
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s reaching.
[PippinForTheWin] not the valar, but the Maiar maybe?
[Puma] that is another convo.but many times
[Erestel] Yeah, he probably would. At least Iluvatar isn’t associated with medichlorians.
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t, Pete. I think Tolkien would find good and evil too muddled in Star Wars for his beliefs.
[Darkover] Just my opinion.
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn assumed that things were “ill” because he didn’t realize their neccessity
[Pete-DOH] Areed, Darkover. Don’t think he would even consider atching it
[Puma] good and evil were very muddled in jrr
[Elemmire] really puma
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Puma?
[Puma] elves had done great evils
[Darkover] It doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
[PippinForTheWin] and great goods
[laughing_gull] I don’t think that makes good and evil muddles
[PippinForTheWin] every race has had some instance of good and evil
[laughing_gull] Humans do good and evil too, in all the great stories
[Elemmire] that was silmarillion though.
[Darkover] Elves made big mistakes, Puma, as did other races, but that isn’t the same as good and evil being muddled.
[Puma] good and evil are not black and white in lotr….it is way deeper than that
[Elemmire] good and evil are always grey
[Darkover] And in LotR, Aragorn points out that good and evil are not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves.
[PippinForTheWin] sometimes its obvious, but the reasons why go very deep
[Pete-DOH] Very little signs of good in the orcs, PippinForTheWin, but there is a trace
[Jenniearcheo] Good and evil are cultural constructs, but . . ./anthropologist
[Elemmire] like? pete
[Puma] i am well aware of what aragorn said
[lini_b] like tryig to heal merrys wound Elemmire
[Darkover] Indeed, a lot of readers complain that Tolkien’s writings show right and wrong, good and evil, as being too black and white.
[Puma] maybe a better word would have been morality
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I’m not sure that was a charitable act
[Elemmire] wasnt that just practicality though pete
[Darkover] Well, don’t be offended. You didn’t act like it, Puma
[Demosthenes] Pete-DOH: is that act derived from utility?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed Merry running
[Pete-DOH] The two orcs in ordor who talked about going off together to set up their own operation. A tiny bit of camaraderie, Elemmire, but it didn’t last long.
[laughing_gull] I agree with Jennie
[PippinForTheWin] the instances themselves are black and white. but the real reasons, the real meanings behind some actions go really deep
[Puma] readers who say good and evil are black and white in jrr….have only seen the surface….and have not looked at the words
[Pete-DOH] Dems, yu talkong about the two orcs? Yes, to a large degree
[Erestel] The Silmarillion has many more grey characters. Turin, Maedhros, Maeglin, etc.
[Demosthenes] pete: yah. they do things to gain something … not through selflessness.
[Elemmire] feanor erestel
[Elemmire] v grey
[Puma] all members of the fellowship have grey areas….
[Puma] and if that were topic we could discuss it
[Demosthenes] Which kinda relates to my earlier point that the orcs have a great lust for life … and never do much that’s positive with it.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, not much of a culture
[Darkover] In this chapter, Grishnakh threatened to rat out his fellow orcs. Typical bad behavior.
[Puma] morgoth designed orcs that way
[Pete-DOH] True, Dems, that’s why I said a very little example–just of two orcs, actually talking about working together. That’s all I got.
[Darkover] Not much of a culture, Jennie, because orcs belong to a dog-eat-dog society
[PippinForTheWin] and i guess orcs are pretty loyal to sauron?
[Elemmire] v true Demosthenes
[Puma] not really
[Jenniearcheo] However, it’s possible that they simply felt that they’d prefer a nice boss-free life, and it would be mutually beneficial
[laughing_gull] I think they are enslaved to sauron?
[Darkover] out of fear, I imagine, PippinFTW
[Puma] orcs only have 1 master.morgoth
[PippinForTheWin] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] So we have a contrast: the orcs scarmbling over each other to get to the top of the pile … and merry and pippin working together to achieve more than their individual sum.
[Darkover] Who at the time of LotR, is in the Void, puma. Some orcs reported to Saruman, some to Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting. Yes
[Demosthenes] together they are greater than the sum of their individual parts
[Jenniearcheo] And end up winning
[Elemmire] you get that a lot Demosthenes
[Puma] but none were totally loyal to either darkover
[Darkover] Right, demosthenes. Orcs, being bad, are incapable of cooperating with each other for selfless reasons.
[PippinForTheWin] once again shows how friendship prevails
[Jenniearcheo] The Rohirrim are better at teamwork, too
[Elemmire] most people are
[Jenniearcheo] the only time the orcs rally is at the end, with a wedge. But they get run down because there are now too few
[Darkover] I’m not sure orcs were ever *totally* loyal to anyone, Puma–and being punished if they weren’t had a lot to do with their loyalty
[Demosthenes] Orc teamwork occurs only vias a leader ruling through fear
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “subservient” rather than “loyal”
[Demosthenes] cf: ugluk removing heads
[Elfriend] I think there is an innocence to Hobbits, especially in the fellowship that helps them make it through nigh insurmountable hurdles.
[Demosthenes] and it seems a temporary alliance at best.
[Darkover] Although you must admit, Ugluk’s form of discipline is effective!
[Elemmire] yep darkover but it wont last
[Jenniearcheo] To a point
[Demosthenes] reminds me of the orc babysitter demotivator
[Darkover] Elfriend, I agree. IMO, Hobbits are the most cooperative of all the peoples of M-e
[Jenniearcheo] That was a great photo
[Pete-DOH] eliminate your enemies, so you wont have enemies
[Darkover] But then, I believe, Pete, the orcs would just fall on each other.
[Demosthenes] i have a different question that we probably ought to consider:
[Demosthenes] How much does Grishnakh know exactly?
[Pete-DOH] or high-tail it out of there as soon as they can, like they did when Sauron fell, darkover
[Elemmire] lots. nothing.
[Elfriend] Orc Cheiftains use lash and force to achieve goals, Hobbits use friendship.
[Darkover] Hmm, never thought about that before, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (about the fellowship and the in particular the Ring)
[lini_b] mote than ugluk imo
[PippinForTheWin] i think that hobbits are so cooperative because they havent really been exposed to much of middle earth besides the shire
[Elemmire] its hard to know
[Pete-DOH] we don’t know, Dems–the “gollum, gollum” incident is confusing
[PippinForTheWin] they have no enemies
[Jenniearcheo] wb ll
[Elemmire] he seems to get pippins hints about gollum and precious
[Elfriend] That’s an interesting point.
[Demosthenes] i mean, what merry and pippin do is inspired, but is Grishnakh just guessing?
[Pete-DOH] wb lorienslady. Did you have a green smoothie with dinner?
[Jenniearcheo] He does seem to be groping them to see if they have something
[Elfriend] Not being exposed to the world of the big folk, not exposed to corruption etc.
[Jenniearcheo] And the words “Gollum” and “precious” bring him up short
[Darkover] I think he probably had a lot of info, but was unsure about what it all meant. Grishnakh struck me as the type who listens at keyholes.
[Susanita] yes, Darkover
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[lini_b] yes Darkover
[Demosthenes] The thought came suddenly into Pippin’s mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: ‘Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He’s looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.’
[Darkover] Thanks, Susanita and Elemmire, and lini_b
[Demosthenes] pippin thinks he knows about the ring
[Pete-DOH] The orcs were told to bring the hobbits back aive, without spoiling them. So Grishnakh knew they might have been holding *something* big
[Jenniearcheo] Made his fingers twitch and he said, “Oh, ho!”
[Darkover] Right, Pete and Demosthenes. He just probably didn’t know specifically what it was, i.e., a Ring
[lorienslady] 😛 no Pete not today lol
[Pete-DOH] awwww, too bad 😀
[Jenniearcheo] But he’s a mordor orc, so he may have heard that Gollum had whatever it was.
[Demosthenes] If the Ring wasn’t common knowledge among even the Wise, then why would an orc know?
[Elemmire] maybe, the words gollum and precious only stop him because he doesn’t want the hobbits to realise what he is up to. hes lookking for something but doesn’t know what.
[Demosthenes] that being said, grishnakh is a mordor orc as you point out jennie
[Puma] he knew
[Jenniearcheo] He may not have known “ring”, but that there was “something” that Gollum had been tortured over
[Demosthenes] maybe he’s one of lugburz’s special spies.
[Pete-DOH] So tht “Gollum Gollum” incident was a red herring, or something that Tolkien put there without fleshing it out?
[lini_b] gollum had been hanging around mordor lots and they may have run across each other
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’s a leader amongst the mordor orc team
[Elemmire] yes lini_b
[Darkover] Is it possible Pippin’s lines about “gollum” and “my precious,” meant something to Grishnakh, because he was one of the orcs who tortured Gollum in Mordor?
[Demosthenes] lini: possible! maybe groshnakh came from the tower itself even?
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[Pete_R] hmmm, maybe Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yeah i wonder
[Puma] grishnakh had reported to a nazgul at river….then ran with group to rejoin
[Demosthenes] “four fingers only has the black hand but they are enough”
[Puma] he knew about the ring
[Elemmire] this is interesting
[Jenniearcheo] True. He held the nazgul in more awe than the Uruks did
[Demosthenes] if so, Grishnakh would have seen Sauron.
[Demosthenes] met? cowered before?
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, he had been forced to report to one. He knew how fearsome they could be.
[Elemmire] or heard about him Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] What was the line? When he was repeating “Nazgul”
[Puma] and the nazgul knew a hobbit had the ring
[Pete_R] Not neccessaroly, Demz–word about Sauron’s apearance would be spread throughout th Mordor crew, I’d think
[Jenniearcheo] “Nazgul, Nazgul” said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savored painfully.
[Demosthenes] You’ll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan’t hurry the enquiry. Oh dear no!
[Demosthenes] and who’s the Questioner?
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean the Nazgul would necessarily have told Grishnakh about the Ring, Puma. The bad guys of M-E aren’t big on explaining themselves or their decisions to the lower ranks.
[Darkover] Probably a Nazgul, Demosthenes.
[Elemmire] good question Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] i thought they called them Shriekers?
[Puma] anyway….i have to head out.fun convo people….and if you want to speak about the active valar in lotr….speak tome of it sometime…there are many examples
[lini_b] i figured Sauron, because of the capitol Q
[Jenniearcheo] To the Uruks, it’d be Saruman
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Puma] good convo people
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Puma, see you next time.
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[Elemmire] bye puma
[Pete_R] bye Puma
[lini_b] bye Puma
[Elemmire] yeah, maybe sauron?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting to wonder what would have happened if they had managed to get Merry and Pippin to Isengard
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: if … and a definiter if … Grishnakh had been present at the torture of Gollum … then you’d think Grishnakh would mean Sauron.
[Darkover] For something as important as the Ring, the Questioner might have been Sauron himself, but I’m betting it was a Nazgul.
[Jenniearcheo] Would Saruman have turned them over to a Nazgul?
[Darkover] More painful than interesting for Merry and Pippin, Jennie
[Demosthenes] For i have always inferred that Sauron dealt with Gollum personally.
[lini_b] heck no
[Elemmire] hmm not sure
[Elemmire] i guess
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie–would Saruman have sent a buch of Uruk-hai after Frodo?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting for me sitting here on my nice king-size quilt
[Demosthenes] But .. it’s a string of logic i know
[Jenniearcheo] Seemingly he did
[Demosthenes] with a few ifs
[Elemmire] Demosthenes it makes sense
[lini_b] gollum hates the great eye
[Jenniearcheo] When the Uruks were sent, was it on Sauron’s behalf?
[Demosthenes] jennie: Saruman would have kept the hobbits
[Mino] Mae govannen! How amazing to be able to chat with other Tolkien and LoTR fans 🙂
[Darkover] You are probably right that Sauron was present at Gollum’s torture. Tolkien wrote that gollum feared the Dark Lord, but hated him even more
[Demosthenes] at least until he got all the information he could
[Jenniearcheo] Were the three bands of orcs working together because Sauron told them to?
[Darkover] Hello, Mino
[Elemmire] hi mino
[lini_b] he doesn’t like the nazgul but “Don’t take it to him”
[Pete_R] Didn’t Saruman have Uruks as well, or ifd the movie fogging my memory?
[Elemmire] the uruks were sarumans
[Jenniearcheo] Would there have been a terrific showdown between the Two Towers if they had managed to Take the Hobbits to Isengard, is myquestion
[Darkover] And if Gollum had been questioned by a Nazgul, say, wouldn’t he have hated the nazgul?
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yes, Ugluk is one of saruman’s uruks
[Elemmire] possibly jennie
[Darkover] He did, Pete_R. Remember the symbol of the White Hand?
[Susanita] Orcs with the filthy white mark
[Darkover] That was in both the books and the movies.
[Mino] Aye, the mark of Saruman
[Pete_R] k, thx, Demz and Elemmire Hi, Mino
[Demosthenes] he gives them man-flesh
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, they didn’t have the ring. If Frodo’d been one of those captured, and Saruman had got the ring, then we’d see what we’d see . . .
[Mino] I bred them down in the depths of Isengard
[Darkover] Then this would have been a much shorter and less happier book, Jennie
[Pete_R] I remembered the white hand, Darkover, but Jennie confused me. 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] I do that from time to time.
* Elemmire can feel my brain working overtime
[Jenniearcheo] Feeds them on Fell Meats, no doubt
[Mino] I haven’t read the books in a few years, but I’ve seen the movies a million times so most of my memores are from them
[Elemmire] great diet
[Demosthenes] related to the how-much-does-grishnakh-know question:
[Demosthenes] ‘You seem to know a lot,’ said Uglúk. ‘More than is good for you, I guess. Perhaps those in Lugbúrz might wonder how, and why.
[Susanita] I’m reading the chapters as we go
[Jenniearcheo] Always insist on kosher Fell Meats
[Darkover] Orcs aren’t above a bit of cannibalism, so I wonder how much more fell the meats could get!
[Susanita] it’s a treat
[Jenniearcheo] Is Lugburz an orc city in Mordor?
[Elemmire] maybe the whole listening at doors poin that darkover? made Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] lugburz is the orc word for the dark tower
[Elfriend] When I see the name ‘Lugburz’ I think of some part of Germany in the first or second world war.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. lol
[Darkover] lol, Elfriend
[lini_b] i figured because sauron knew what was in saurumans mind, that he sent his orcs to run into the isengatd group
[Demosthenes] Barad-dûr (Sindarin “Dark Tower”, sometimes given as The Barad-dûr (Lugbúrz in Black Speech))
[Elfriend] I never knew that 🙂
[Elfriend] IN all my time as a Tolkien fan 🙂
[Darkover] These discussions are educational, as well as interesting
[Demosthenes] i figured orcs would not use black speech .. but they do. kinda.
[Elemmire] why does my chat not like the accents?
[Jenniearcheo] I loved Pippin’s refusal to eat the strip of dried meat.lol
[Pete_R] same here, Elemmire
[lini_b] mine either Elemmire
[Demosthenes] mibbit does not do accents very well. :/
[Jenniearcheo] WE’re using the mibbit chat. It doesn’t like his pasted diacritical marks
[Elfriend] But I’m going to leave here wanting to read the books again – as always 🙂
[Elemmire] i get a little question mark. its confusing
[Pete_R] Pippin was all, “Ewww, I don’t *think* so…”
[Elemmire] this is a really good conversation!
[Darkover] He wasn’t that hungry yet, and I don’t blame him.
[Darkover] We try, Elemmire 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] The Nazgul are “the apple of the Great Eye.” lol Apple
[Elemmire] woah. fruit?
[Darkover] and his enforcers, it seems
[Elemmire] mordor doeant do fruit
[Demosthenes] the fruit would come from Nurnen, i guess.
[Elfriend] How about ‘the apple of the great evil eye’ 😉
[Demosthenes] or from further east
[Darkover] If mordor doesn’t do fruit, maybe that’s Sauron’s problem. He’s not regular. 😉
[lini_b] but they do wine don’t they?
[Jenniearcheo] “He was famished but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him by an Orc, the flesh of he dared not guess what creature.”
[Susanita] oooh, Darkover, that’s the pits
[Darkover] Sorry, I thought it was funny
[Jenniearcheo] oh dear
[Jenniearcheo] Now I have a vision of SAuron on the john
[Elemmire] we’re slowly going downhill
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for that
[Elemmire] scrap slowly
[Demosthenes] lots of orc names in this chapter. skai, grishnakh, lugdush, mahur, ugluk
[Pete_R] The REALLY Dark Throne
[Elfriend] Oh no
[Darkover] How else do you think Mordor tortures people, jennie? 😉
[Susanita] Dem did write that post about Middle Earth … elimination
[Jenniearcheo] True, the One Loo to Rule Them All
[Elemmire] i like grishnakh as a name. it sounds good when you say it
[Pete_R] haha–true, Susanita
[Darkover] And it was funny, but true, Susanita
[Elfriend] Stop it x D
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the Uruks’ eyes are described as angular or slanted or something.
[Elemmire] like an elfs
[Jenniearcheo] Something . . . perhaps not 21st-century PC
[Darkover] Tolkien didn’t bother to be PC, and I thank the Valar for it
[Demosthenes] one guesses an orc might be attractive to another orc
[Elfriend] Ugluck and Grishnakh sound much better than ‘Gorbag’ and ‘Shagrat’ 🙂
[Elemmire] there are never any mentions of femal orcs
[Susanita] let’s not go there, Dem!
[Darkover] no wonder they live their lives in the dark. If they saw each other in daylight, there would be no little orcs
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it was half a century ago . . .
[lini_b] are there lady orcs?
[Elfriend] Dems, that would take many pints of Fosters
[Pete_R] Female orcs hang out with female dwarves, Elemmire
[Elemmire] ok pete
[lini_b] lol Pete_R
[Darkover] Actually, in a more serious vein, I have always suspected that we never see or hear about female orcs, because orcs reproduce by rape.
[Jenniearcheo] I suspect lady orcs are kept in the depths of caverns, in a constant state of pregnancy
[Jenniearcheo] pretty much
[Elfriend] I could have gone the rest of this HOF without that one Darkover.
[Elemmire] oh great. lovely
[Elfriend] But, okay.
[lini_b] and uruks are test tube babies
[Darkover] Sorry. I seem to be in offensive mode tonight
[Demosthenes] Tolkien also described the Druedain as having “unlovely faces”
[Demosthenes] So the lack of looks gets shared around
[Jenniearcheo] Except the uruk-hai are a perversion of orcs and men . . . which was prettied up for the film with his weird sac. But probably resulted from human captive women
[Pete_R] Darkover, I doubt that, becuse I’d think there would be more examples of halfbreeds, like in Bree
[Demosthenes] Aragorn is a bit weatherbeaten too
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: the pukel men. wildmen of the woods. woses.
[Elfriend] A tactical advantage.
[Darkover] Well, Pete, how do we know there aren’t? and where do you think such halfbreeds come from?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the weirdo in Bree was an early uruk experiment
[miriel] Night all
[Jenniearcheo] night miriel
[Demosthenes] the swarthy man?
[Mithrandir] Miriel! 😀
[Darkover] Goodnight, Miriel
[Elemmire] bye miriel
[Darkover] See you next time
[lini_b] bye miriel
[Elfriend] Dems- one would not seek Isildurs heir in unlovely faces, one might be looking for Orli or some such : )
[Demosthenes] i dunno. pippin (or merry?) says later that he looked orcish?
[Jenniearcheo] Bill Ferny’s funny looking friend
[Mithrandir] Ok, talk to you later Miriel!
[Mithrandir] Good night!
[Mithrandir] and im goin out too guys!
[Mithrandir] night all
[Demosthenes] night Mithrandir!
[Pete_R] Bt what I’m saying is that if all orc babies come from forced relations with humans, then the race of orcs would be watered down, and all the orc would be “half-breeds,” for lack of a better term.
[lini_b] bye Mithrandir
[Darkover] Aragorn was weatherbeaten from leading a hard life, but no one ever said he was ugly. On the contrary, when he was cleaned and dressed up at Lorien, Arwen thought he looked like an elf-lord
[Pete_R] bye miriel and mithrandir
[Elemmire] do we have to discuss orc breeding habits?
[Darkover] Bye, Mithrandir
[Jenniearcheo] Not all orc babies. Just the Uruk-hai, Pete
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire’s right, there are better things to discuss.
[lini_b] how could sauruman have created 10,000 uruks in such a short time?
[Elfriend] We are now in a Pg-13 chat 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Demosthenes] there’s some indication that orcs might be immortal too
[Jenniearcheo] But, he’d been doing so for a while
[Demosthenes] though that doesn’t come up until ROTK
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] They are perverted elves, aren’t they?
[Susanita] Uruk-hai were Saruman’s clone army
[Pete_R] Okay, isstead of storks, do fell beasts bring orc babies/ But I digress… 😉
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] No reason why perverted elves should suddenly acquire a life span is there?
[Pete_R] interesting point, Dems
[Demosthenes] it’s circumstantial, like a lot of stuff in Tolkien.
[Elemmire] good point Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bolg and Azog were fairly long-lived. Good point
[Jenniearcheo] It surprises me that there would be a father-son relationship amongst orcs. That they paid attention to parentage
[Pete_R] Jennie, I always got the impression the the elves were in the loop thousands of years ago, and the orc gene pool was probably horribly corrupted
[Jenniearcheo] Rather inbred, I’d think
[Jenniearcheo] Well, on that cheery note
[Elfriend] Susanita, interesting that.
[Jenniearcheo] I have a Thai green shrimp curry and jasmine rice waiting for me.
[Elemmire] bye jennie
[Jenniearcheo] with fresh Thai basil
[Darkover] Sounds great, Jennie! Enjoy, and we will see you next time
[Elemmire] see you
[lini_b] bye Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Are we done for this week?
[Jenniearcheo] Byee. Bye Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] seeya jennie!
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all aspects of Orcishness
[Pete_R] bye, Jennie
[Demosthenes] i recommend the slimy tolkien FAQ btw
[Demosthenes] great resource
[Elfriend] Saruman had the stronger breed of Orcs, Sauron did did not seem to care to have the same investment.
[Susanita] orcs were cannon fodder
[Demosthenes] sauron uses massive numberws to win
[Darkover] Maybe the Dark Lord figured there were more where they came from.
[Demosthenes] yah arrow fodder
[Demosthenes] ok, next week we’ll be discussing idril and tuor