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Elvish 101 Lesson 7 Transcript

August 23, 2003 at 5:14 am by Demosthenes  - 

<Annatar> tonite will be the sindarin verb
<GollumsGal> ok.
<GollumsGal> i teach Elvish lessons myself, but i just wanted to see what you guys were teaching
<Lothengriol> Does anyone know if “galen” is singular or plural?
<GollumsGal> singular
<Lothengriol> Thank you.
<GollumsGal> ur welcome
<Lothengriol> So mirgalen would be green jewel?
<GollumsGal> well, i would say it as galen m”r, personally
<GollumsGal> since it’s Sindarin
<Lothengriol> Oh, I thought if it followed it meant “of the..” Thank you again
<GollumsGal> well, according to The Languages of Tolkiens Middle Earth, adjectives go before the word they describe
<jincey> hiya gorlab : )
<Gorlab> ‘Ullo!
<GollumsGal> what’s that mean?
<Gorlab> Thanks!
<Gorlab> Ullo?
<jincey> hiya : )
<GollumsGal> what does mode change mean?
<Gorlab> It’s a written approximation of a cockney accent…
<Gorlab> Ah….
<GollumsGal> huh?
<GollumsGal> oh
<GollumsGal> hey, Gorlab, can i ask u a question before the lesson?
<Gorlab> Certainly.
<Gorlab> Fire Away…
<GollumsGal> ok. i’ve never been to any of your lessons before, but i was reading the transcript to lesson 4, and i got confused
<Gorlab> what particular part?
<GollumsGal> on the pronouns
<Gorlab> What confuses you about the pronouns?
<Annatar> Quenya or Sindarin?
<GollumsGal> u see, i teach Elvish myself, and in all my sources, i never found any sentence with -nye as “I”
<GollumsGal> except in utuvienyes
<GollumsGal> but i thought that -yes meant “it”
<Gorlab> -s means “it”
<GollumsGal> at least that’s what it says in The Languages of Tolkien’s Middle Earth
<Gorlab> Ruth Noel’s?
<GollumsGal> yes
<GollumsGal> brb
<Gorlab> Some of the information in Ruth Noel’s book has been superceded by information published after her book was….
<Lothengriol> I read that nad tried to learn some, but now hear that it isn’t definative
<Gorlab> …such as the History of Middle earth series and some publications like Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon….
<Gorlab> To answer GollumsGal’s question,
<Lothengriol> Wouldn’t it be wise to edit it and republish it, rather than earn a bad reputation?
<Gorlab> 1rst person Singular Present tense (“I am”)….
<Lothengriol> brb
<Annatar> I am personally unaware of the author’s intention regarding that book, but it appears that the publisher simply couldn’t resist
<Gorlab> is made by combining the present tense verb na- ( “is”) with the 1rst person singular -nye to caom up with “nanye”
<Gorlab> come up with, excuse me
<GollumsGal> ok, i’m back
<Gorlab> the “ye”portion of -nye can be shortened to just “n”
<Annatar> So it’s no precisely a pronoun, but more of “pronomial” ending that does the job of indicating number and person
<Gorlab> making it “nan”
<GollumsGal> yes, ok, i knew that
<GollumsGal> ok, thanks for yur help
<GollumsGal> *your
<Gorlab> Yes indeed, avatar!
<Gorlab> 😉
<GollumsGal> avatar?
<Gorlab> No problem, GollumsGal…
<GollumsGal> oh
<Gorlab> Avatar…has it become that time?
<Lothengriol> I’m back, I couldn”t find the etymologies. Now I have the big book out.
<Annatar> ava=go, flee tar=lord
<Gorlab> er…I mean Annatar…
<Gorlab> ava is “don’t”
<Annatar> and Gil-Galad would not treat with Annatar…
<Annatar> ok
<Gorlab> Ahem…..Annatar – is it about that time?
<Annatar> Mae govannen y’all
<Annatar> Good evening and thank you for coming
<Gorlab> elen sila lumenn’ omentielvo everypeoples!
<jincey> hi y’all : )
<GollumsGal> a na le, mellyn
<Gorlab> Tonight – that wonder of wonders….
<Annatar> Yes, i’ve already seen the trailer, so let’s talk about Verbs!
<Gorlab> (drum roll please)
<Annatar> let’s all hear it for the Sindarin verb!
<Gorlab> Huzzah!
<GollumsGal> yay!
<Annatar> Happily, some good work has been done concerning the Sindarin verb recently
<Annatar> Helge Faukanger, to whom we so often refer, has done a rather complex derivation based on the theories of david Salo, who did th Movie Sindarin
<Annatar> however, Ryszard Igor Jerzy Derdzinski has simplified it without alteration
<Annatar> so, it is based on information at that I’l be basing this lesson
<Annatar> for all you newcomers, Helge is at
<Annatar> I take that many of you are already familiar with these sources
<Annatar> yes?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<NerwenArtanis> yes
<GollumsGal> uh-huh
<Annatar> no is an ok answer too
<Annatar> so, here we go
<GollumsGal> well, with the first, not the other
<Beruthiel> got it now
<Annatar> alright, in both Quenya and Sindarin there are two kinds of verb
<Annatar> They are the Basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> Supposedly, this refers to the structure of [rimitive Elivsh
<Annatar> for our purposes, suffice it to say that they take slighlty different forms
<Annatar> because of their stems
<Annatar> we wil be covering 3 tenses–past, present and future
<Annatar> and 3 moods indicitive, supjunctive, and imperitive
<Annatar> and most confusingly we will deal with continuative vs. aorist senses
<Elessar_T> I gather this will be linguistic heavy
<Annatar> not that bad
<Gorlab> It’s not that difficult – everything should be defined and explained…
<Annatar> some of it’s harder to discuss than to do
<GollumsGal> what about auxiliary?
<Annatar> none just yet, but many aux. functions are carried out by these senses
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we’ll use the example ped-
<Annatar> which is the root for the verb “speak”
<Annatar> the Aorist sense would be “I am (always) speaking”
<Annatar> or “I (as a matter of course) speak
<Annatar> that would be “pedin”
<Elessar_T> just a question (I missed the start), is this Sindarin or Quenya?
<Annatar> but “I am speaking (rigth now) is “pidon”
<Annatar> Sindarin
<Elessar_T> ok
<Gorlab> We covered Quenya Verbs in lesson 5…
<GollumsGal> so the “tense” is ‘-o’
<Annatar> ped- is Baic verb, so it gets the vowel change
<Elessar_T> ok, guess I missed that one
<GollumsGal> oh
<Elessar_T> I see that it’s Sindarin now anyway.
<Gorlab> (no prob Elessar….lesson 5 should be posted any time now…)
<Annatar> -on as and ending applies to 1st sing –“I” for both basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> in the continuative (right now) sense
<Maeglin_Lomion> So the difference between “ped” and “pid” is perpetual vs. immediate?
<GollumsGal> ok, but if it didn’t have I as a subject?
<GollumsGal> *”I”
<Annatar> endings soon
<GollumsGal> ok, sorry
<Annatar> pidon=continuative pedin= Aorist
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> but let’s look at those endings shall we?
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Let’s!
<GollumsGal> yes, let’s
<Annatar> to begin with the continuative, it’s “pidon” and “pidam” for 1st person
<Annatar> singular and plural
<Annatar> that becomss “pidoch” and “pidach” for 2nd person familiar in sing and pl
<Annatar> “Pidol” and “pidal” for 2nd person Formal
<Annatar> and “pida” and “pidar” for 3rd person in Singular and plural
<Annatar> So, “we are speaking (now)” is “pidam”
<Annatar> “he/she/it is speaking now” is “pida”
<Annatar> dow this make sense?
<Annatar> does
<GollumsGal> yes, it does
<Elessar_T> it does to me
<Annatar> thanx
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes.
<Annatar> Let’s now advance to the Aorist
<Annatar> We are still in the present tens, but now we are referring to more or less eternal conditions
<GollumsGal> now, what *does* aorist mean?
<Annatar> The example I have often used is that when my father says “the Yankee’s stink” he’s only currently disappointed with them
<Gorlab> The aorist, in a way is beyond specific tenses…
<GollumsGal> okÉ
<Gorlab> it denotes timeless truths…
<Annatar> however, when some mocks my beloved Cubs by saying “The Cubs stink” they mean that it’s and unchanging reality
<Zach> did i miss the elvish lesson?
<Annatar> jsut expling the Aorist sense
<Elessar_T> only the start of it
<Gorlab> “The Cubs stink” is certainly a timeless truth…
<jincey> lol
<GollumsGal> of course!
<Elessar_T> get back to the sindarin verb, thanks
<Annatar> Now, to form this wonderful sense of the verb, differest rndings apply
<Annatar> endings apply
<Annatar> starting with ped-
<Annatar> we get “pedin” and pedim” for the 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> notice that the “e” in ped- remains the same
<Annatar> you may also notice that “n” and “m” still end the word
<GollumsGal> so it only becomes “i” for continuative?
<Annatar> exactly, rushing on to 2nd person, we get for 2nd familiar
<Annatar> “pedich” in both Sing and pl
<Annatar> and for 2nd person Formal we have “pedil” for singular and plural
<Annatar> 3rd goes like “pEd” and “pedir” for singular and plural
<Annatar> the “E” indicates an accent (your choice)
<Annatar> so to say “he speaks” in the sense of “he speaks for all of us” you would use “pEd”
<Annatar> still with me?
<GollumsGal> so could that be pŽd?
<Annatar> I guess
<GollumsGal> ok
<Elessar_T> with you
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> still with you
<Annatar> the important thing is to indicate the long, that is actually lengthened vowel
<GollumsGal> still w/ ya
<Maeglin_Lomion> What was that 2nd character after the p, GollumsGal? I got a square box.
<GollumsGal> e with an accent
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> ’cause in Sindarin, the lengthened vowel is considered to be grammatically seperate
<Annatar> Tolkien never quite seemed to decide, so I can’t really either
<Elessar_T> accent and cirkumflex can both be applied to a vowel to indicate lengthened sound, right?
<Annatar> exactly
<Annatar> now let’s try a derived vowel
<Annatar> linna-
<Annatar> it means “sing”
<Annatar> now this follows about the same pattern of “ped-“
<GollumsGal> i thought it meant ‘chant’
<Elessar_T> sing and chant are quite synonymous, though
<GollumsGal> oh, ok\
<Annatar> BUT, it doesn’t have the vowel trans form in the stem that “ped-” does
<GollumsGal> why not?
<Annatar> ’cause it’s derived, and, and, well, it’s derived?
<Annatar> I don’t really know
<GollumsGal> k
<Elessar_T> but it is in most cases possible to see the difference between them, right?
<Annatar> but that’s the only real reason we’re messing around with “derived” vs. “basic,” which doesn’t really matter other wise
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> from “linna-” we get “linnom” and “linnam” ind 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> “linnoch” and “linnach” for 2nd person familiar sing/pl
<Annatar> “linnol” and “linnal” for 2nd pers. sing/pl
<Annatar> and “linna” and “linnar” for 3rd person sing/pl
<Annatar> so it’s not really that different
<Elessar_T> why does the 1st person singular end with an “m”? it ended with “n” in basic verbs
<Annatar> sorry bad typing, you are correct
<GollumsGal> ok, whew
<Annatar> it should be “linnon” for 1st
<Elessar_T> ok, typo demons are annoying 🙁
<Annatar> to get to Aorist, we don’t really have to do much else
<Annatar> 1st person Aorist sing/pl is “linnan”/ “linnam”
<Annatar> 2nd person Familiar is “linnach” for sing and pl
<Annatar> 2nd Formal is “linnal” for sing/pl
<Annatar> and for 3rtd it’s “liina” and “linnar”
<Annatar> so, the endings and transfor mations should be alittle clearer now
<GollumsGal> what is 3rd singular?
<Elessar_T> how do you pronounce a double vowel? is it long like if it had an accent?
<Annatar> “linna”
<GollumsGal> oh, k
<Elessar_T> oops sorry
<Annatar> opps
Action: Elessar_T kills Annatar’s typo demon
<Annatar> thanx
<Annatar> now we’ll try to get into the past (tense)
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Kill the Typo Daemons….
<GollumsGal> lol
<Annatar> ist’s basically an insetions of “-nt” which mutates to “nn” in actual usage
<GollumsGal> what does that mean?
<Annatar> so, going 1st/2ndfam/2ndFormal/3rd we get
<Elessar_T> this goes for both basic and derived verbs?
<Annatar> this is where you see a siligh difference “pennin”/”pennim”
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> what is an insetion?
<Annatar> “linnen”/linnem”
<GollumsGal> could you like rewind and clarify?
<Elessar_T> insection is between the stem and the ending, right?
<Annatar> insertion, rather
<Elessar_T> ok
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> oh, ok, thanks
<Annatar> yes, exactly
<Elessar_T> infix is another word for it, I think
<Annatar> for 2nd familiar, we get “pennich” for sing/pl and “linnech” for sing. pl
<Gorlab> It is now Gorlab’s time to leave this fine hall…but I hope to see you all next week. Annatar will continue on in fine form as he has been for as long as he can but for me:
<Gorlab> Namarie!!!
<GollumsGal> bye
<Maeglin_Lomion> Namárië, Gorlab.
<Annatar> for 2nd Formal it’s “pennil” and “linnel”
<jincey> : )
<Annatar> and for 3rd, and this is the good part…
<Maeglin_Lomion> What does the root “pen” mean?
<Elessar_T> speak
<Annatar> ped- is to speak
<Maeglin_Lomion> How did we get to pen from ped?
<Elessar_T> but go on. 3rd person..
<Annatar> beut that -nt just kills the “d” and makes it “n”
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, thanks.
<GollumsGal> ok, but it is bsorbed by the n in linna?
<GollumsGal> *absorbed
<Annatar> for “ped-” 3rd sing is “pent” and plural is “pennir”
<Annatar> but for “linna-“
<Annatar> it’s “linnant” sing and “linner” ind 3rd person
<Elessar_T> why?
<GollumsGal> whoa, why?
<Annatar> this is where we see that ped- is a stem that ends in a consonant
<Elessar_T> wait, I see, basic/derived right?
<Annatar> and “linna- is a stem that ends in a vowel
<Annatar> yes, Elessar, thou hast got it
<GollumsGal> uh, Annatar, what would be the root for noro?
<GollumsGal> is it basic or derived?
<Elessar_T> I guess I’m just talented with languages 🙂
<Annatar> I had hoped to get to the future tense, which also comes in continuative and Aorist senses, but just go to and if you’ve followed this so far, it shouldn’t be too hard
<Annatar> one sec, GG I’d have to look it up
<GollumsGal> k
<Annatar> “noro” like in “noro lIm Asfoloth,” right?
<GollumsGal> yes
<Elessar_T> sounds basic to me… but I’m not an expert…
<Annatar> “noro” would be in the imperative, which end is “o”
<Annatar> for basic, just add “o”
<Annatar> for derived substitute “o” for the vowel
<GollumsGal> k, i think got it
<GollumsGal> *i got
<Maeglin_Lomion> As in…pedo and linno?
<Annatar> Thank you all for coming, we’ll be back next week

Posted in Old Special Reports on August 23, 2003 by

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