Support TheOneRing.net - A not for profit fan community!
Join us in our 24 Hour Chatroom!
LEGO Lord of the Rings Collection
The One Ring

News Alerts

Get emailed with every new post!

Weekly Newsletter

Select a list:

Elvish 101 Lesson 8 Transcript

August 23, 2003 at 5:19 am by Demosthenes  - 

<inJvstice> greetings
<inJvstice> well Gorlab (Kris) may be joining us later in the session
<<inJvstice> I’m gonna turn this over to Annatar now…..
<Annatar> Annatar here Aiya!
<Alorin> Suilaid
<Annatar> first order of business, did anyone catch the lessons we did about Qenya or Sindarin verbs?
<jincey> i did…. but don’t count me ; )
<The_One_Ring> i missed it.
<Annatar> or, or that matter, Quenya 😉
<Beruthiel> I think so, but can’t remember
<Annatar> OK, how about last week’s Tengwar lesson?
<Beruthiel> nope
<Annatar> OK
<Annatar> First off,
<Annatar> inJvstice will show how the inscripiton on the title page of LOTR is constructed
<inJvstice> o.k. so I’ve been asked to mention a bit about the runic inscriptions
<inJvstice> does everyone have a copy of ROTK?
<Beruthiel> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> yesss
<The_One_Ring> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> or course
<inJvstice> specifically the Title Page, and appn. E
<The_One_Ring> yup
<inJvstice> k, in Appx E there is the basic chart for the Tengwar Characters
<inJvstice> Tengwar is the plural form of Tengwa (or letter)
<Beruthiel> ok, found it
<inJvstice> well to begin with this is the basic way each of the tengwar is presented
<inJvstice> These letters represent basic phonetic sounds,
<inJvstice> so they can be used to represent any given language.
<inJvstice> For instance one could use them to write in Quenya, Sindarin, or English
<inJvstice> (or any other language for that matter….Russian, Spanish, etc….)
<The_One_Ring> but, isn’t it easiest in quenya/sindarian because of the consonant clusters, and diphthongs?
<The_One_Ring> etc.
<inJvstice> well yes. in a sense
<Elaran> no…
<inJvstice> The Tengwar are somewhat originally formed for Quenya
<inJvstice> however, by changing the values along certain phonetically logical lines
<inJvstice> they can be used for any language
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<inJvstice> English is somewhat difficult since there are several letters which have similar sounds
<inJvstice> k and q for instance
<inJvstice> so <inJvstice> one moment
<inJvstice> hmmm there is a site where you can find the tengwar values for most languages
<inJvstice> Quenya, Sindarin, English, a few others
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
<Beruthiel> http://mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php how about this one?
<inJvstice> the sites contains charts for Quenya, Sindarin, Sindarin Beleriand, and English
<inJvstice> I like these since they use the same structure as the appx E
<inJvstice> While giving you all the needed values for each letter
<inJvstice> anyhooo. I tried this last week and discovered that this is not a good medium for teaching Tengwar use…..
<inJvstice> I can’t demonstrate
<inJvstice> so I’ll simply say this….
<inJvstice> that by following the charts with English values, you can translate
<inJvstice> the Title Page inscription
<inJvstice> which in Roman Characters reads….
<inJvstice> “of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the Hobbits”
<jincey> of westmarch?
<jincey> nothing before that?
<inJvstice> this is the bottom of the page
<Alorin> of.. like about
<inJvstice> the top of the page in the Cirith Runes reads “The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book”
inJvstice> (thats the first part of the whole thing)
<Beruthiel> never knew that
<jincey> nice : )
<inJvstice> I’ve not made much study of the Cirith….though appx E also contains translations for the Cirith
<inJvstice> for now there is a tengwar textbook that ban be downloaded from
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001
<inJvstice> this a truely remarkable textbook on how to use the tengwar
<Beruthiel> got it
<inJvstice> also the use of the tethar, which are the diacritic marks above and below the tengwar
<inJvstice> you’ll see these in the title page inscirption.
<inJvstice> these are the vowels
<The_One_Ring> im getting it now
<inJvstice> kewl
<inJvstice> thats about all I can really do right now on tengwar….
<inJvstice> so I’ll let y’all look at that for the next few weeks or so
<The_One_Ring> i already have this, though, but i haven’t really looked at it.
<inJvstice> At any of our chats if you’ve any questions I’ll be around to answer them
<The_One_Ring> yet
<jincey> folks, y’all head to atlanta for dragoncon labor day weekend…
<inJvstice> it is worth a look see
<jincey> see these folks in person : )
<inJvstice> yes thanx Jincey, I and my compatriots will be there running this in person
<Elaran> lol
<inJvstice> There I’ll be able to give better instructions and to demonstrate the use of the tnegwar
<Beruthiel> wish Atlanta was closer
<inJvstice> until then the text book is a great resorce
<Beruthiel> then Jincey can teach us!
<The_One_Ring> if only i could drive…
<inJvstice> I’m going to attempt a slide show or some other medium to cover this online
<inJvstice> though I might be able to before the DragonCon
<Beruthiel> there’s a workshop at the Toronto Gathering that I’ll be going to
<The_One_Ring> awsum.
<inJvstice> for now I’m going to turn over to Annatar……
<Annatar> Hello..
<Annatar> I usually appear in these chats as Annatar
<Annatar> but my name is Paul
<Beruthiel> hi Paul
<Annatar> Sindarin is the area I usually cover,
<Elaran> i lam arth 😉
<Annatar> but I also do a lot of phonology,
<Annatar> or pronunciation, if you will
<Annatar> Sindarin is particularly interesting in that its elements often change their sound
<Annatar> according to what their “job” is in the sentnce
<Annatar> altough this sounds a lot like a “case system” such as you’d have in, say Latin or Russian
<The_One_Ring> im learning quenya right now, but do you suggest also learning sindarian?
<Annatar> it’s not normally described like that
<The_One_Ring> similar to russian. thats good.
<Annatar> Honestly,
<Annatar> I think that it is a good idea to try learning Quenya first
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> as TORN no doubt knows
<Annatar> there is a good Quenya course at Ardalambion.com
<The_One_Ring> i am using that.
<Annatar> which everyone rightfully refers to as the place you need to go
<Annatar> for Sindarin, http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
<Alorin> Annatar.. there isnt much information about Sindarin phonology around.. and the info that there is, usually speaks of the pronounciation of vowels and letter separately
<Annatar> is the place to go
<Annatar> needless to say, what we know about
<Elaran> as opposed to what Alorin?
<Annatar> Sindarin phonology
<Annatar> is somewhat fragmentary
<Annatar> however, there seems to be ageneral agreement amongst scholars
<Annatar> (one of whom I am not)
<Annatar> as to what Sindarin sounds like
<Annatar> This allowed David Salo to write Sindarin dialogue for PJ’s LOTR movie
<Annatar> although the pronuciation is not always what everyone would like
<Annatar> case in point
<Annatar> it’s <Annatar> because according to Tolkien’s instructions
<Annatar> in a 2 syllable word
<Annatar> the stress always falls on the 1st syllable
<Annatar> this rule applies to bith Sindarin and Quenya
<Annatar> both
<Annatar> However, the guide in App.E of LOTR is usually sufficient
<Annatar> as a guide to pronunciation
<Annatar> when you her JRRT reading some of his own poetry
<Annatar> in both Quenya and Sindarin, it is consistent with his written guidelines
<Annatar> next week, I’ll try to do a quick review of the Sindarin verb
<Annatar> and intruduce sound mutations
<Annatar> it’s not really that hard though
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we all know that <Annatar> and <Annatar> for the moment
<Annatar> I’ll just give you one more online resource
<Annatar> http://www.aboriginemundi.com/sindarin/related.htm
<Annatar> this will link you to a truly KILLER Sindarin dictionary
<Annatar> there is also a Windows app that encapsulates this dictionary
<Annatar> now, to close this session, Kris, aka Gorlab will say a few words about Quenya,
<Gorlab> Hello everybody, this is Kris Nelson here now…
<Gorlab> I deal with the Quenya end of things…
<Beruthiel> hi Kris
<Gorlab> Quenya is, of course the “other” Elvish tongue…
<Gorlab> as opposed to Sindarin…
<Gorlab> In the inner story, Quenya was the language spoken by the three tribes of elves that lived across the sea from Middle-Earth in Aman – land of the Gods….
<Gorlab> Those three tribes were the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri….
<Gorlab> The Noldor spoke what could be viewed as the closest thing to “book” Quenya as you can get…
<Gorlab> The Vanyar spoke a slightly different dialect and there were features of Telerin that could almost be considered a seperate kind of language, but for the most part they all spoke QUENYA…
<Gorlab> When the Noldor left Aman to return back to Middle-earth they brought Quenya with them…
<Gorlab> but not before they slaughtered some of their kin, the Teleri, to do it…
<Gorlab> when this fact was discovered by the Sindarin king Thingol, Quenya was banned in public in the kingdom of the Sindar and became a “book” tongue…
<Gorlab> Quenya survives into the third-age Lord of the Rings era through Galadriel and some of her speeches in Lothlorien…
<Gorlab> Galadriel, of course was one of the Noldorin exiles from way back in the 1rst age and so is one of our only native speakers…
<Gorlab> As for the language itself…
<Gorlab> it resembles Finnish in some aspects….
<Gorlab> because that was one of the languages of Tolkien’s heart…
<Gorlab> one of the languages that he approved of aesthetically…
<Gorlab> and it is the languge of the Kalevala, the finnish mythological epic that inspired a lot of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion…
<jincey> so we could go into #kontu and hear something akin to quenya?
<<jincey> that is our finnish room
<Gorlab> Yes, something akin to Quenya..
<Gorlab> actually, I met two lovely Finnish skiers who let me assail them with Quenya phrases…
<Gorlab> they remarked about how similar it DID sound…
<Beruthiel> lol
<jincey> really?
<Gorlab> Very Good lessons are available on Helge Fauskanger’s site, Ardalambion
<Gorlab> It is his Quenya course.
<The_One_Ring> ok. councilofelrond.com has a sindarian course, but i havnt looked at it yet. have you seen it? do you think it would be any good?
<Gorlab> Helge’s course has lessons, examples, problems, and keys and is very good for beginners, as it shows what we know and what we don’t know about Tolkien’s languages…
<Annatar> I, too am curious about their course
<Annatar> Unfortunately, it conflicts with my schedule
<Elaran> lol
<Elaran> <--- tis my course
<Annatar> However, Sindarin right now is in a fair amount of flux,
<Annatar> and all that we can determine about its stucture and vocabulary
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> is of use to the general Tolkien linguistic community
<Annatar> up until the movies
<Annatar> much effort was being dedicated towards Quenya
<Annatar> but now with the new movie-based LOTR interest,
<Annatar> there has been a great upsurge on Sindarin interest, and new scholarship as well
<Annatar> that’s it for me, but Gorlab has a few things to say
<jincey> ok
<Gorlab> So, to wrap things up,
<Gorlab> Next week we are going to hopefully cover some Elvish phrases…
<Gorlab> We have, (for those who have been before) covered pronunciation
<Gorlab> nouns
<Gorlab> verbs
<Gorlab> in both Sindarin and Quenya.
<Gorlab> With some detouring into pronouns..
<Gorlab> For those who are new,
<The_One_Ring> what about adjectives?
<Gorlab> it really isn’t that hard to catch up and catch on…
<Beruthiel> I have gone into the acrchives and read the other sessions that are posted there
<Gorlab> We are going to slip in some descriptive terms once we have our objects interacting with our subjects…
<The_One_Ring> ok.
<Gorlab> Building this way we can make more and more complex sentences…
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<Gorlab> You all are wonderful people to be here like this and be interested in keeping Tolkien’s spirit alive through exercising his creation..
<jincey> you are wonderful for sharing your knowledge with us : )
<Gorlab> I must go fight Dragons now, so I hope to see you all next week – Namarie!
<jincey> night guys!
<Alorin> Navaer, Gorlab.. Le hannon ‘ni l ‘fb i ‘f3nech ammen!
Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
Annatar has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
<jincey> thanks for coming y’all 🙂

Posted in Old Special Reports on August 23, 2003 by

Comments are closed.