Support TheOneRing.net - A not for profit fan community!
Join us in our 24 Hour Chatroom!
LEGO Lord of the Rings Collection
Daggers of Tauriel

News Alerts

Get emailed with every new post!

Weekly Newsletter

Select a list:

Elvish Lesson #4 Transcript

March 6, 2003 at 7:11 pm by Jincey  - 

This week’s lesson in our series “How to Construct a Sindarin Sentence” covered derivation. Here’s the log, for those who couldn’t make it in!

*** Log file opened: 3/5/2003 7:01:55 PM

[jincey] welcome to lesson#4 of “how to write a Sindarin Sentance”
[jincey] elostrion will speak a bit, then take questions
[Elostrion] Tonight we are going to look over Derivation.
[Elostrion] Derivation refers to the adding to/altering of words by the use of suffixes or prefixes.
[Elostrion] As well as, the deduction of words from other languages.
[Elostrion] The latter can be quite confusing and complicated.
[Elostrion] Deducing a probable word is actually quite faulty as well.
[Elostrion] We can theorize all day long about what the word for “extrapolate” is, but Tolkien, very likely, would have had a different word.
[Elostrion] Let’s go over the easier section first.
[Elostrion] There are four categories that Mr. Derdzinski divides the 5 alteration suffixes/prefixes into.
[Elostrion] Augumentative
[Elostrion] Diminutive
[Elostrion] Pejorative
[Elostrion] and Negative
[Elostrion] Augumentative:
[Elostrion] We add the suffix “-on”.
[Elostrion] This will make the noun mean “great ___”
[Elostrion] “siri-on” – “great river”
[Elostrion] Diminutive:
[Elostrion] We add the suffix “-eg”.
[Elostrion] Doing so will diminish the meaning.
[Elostrion] “nogoth-eg” – “dwarf-let”
[Elostrion] Pejorative:
[Elostrion] This will add a negative element.
[Elostrion] “u/ú-“
[Elostrion] “ú-marth” – “ill-fate”
[Elostrion] Negative:
[Elostrion] There are two prefixes in this section…
[Elostrion] “pen-” and “al-“
[Elostrion] Both ‘reverse’ the meaning.
[Elostrion] “pen-adar” – “father-less”
[Elostrion] “al-firin” – “im-mortal”
[Elostrion] This covers all these.
[Elostrion] Someone asked me a question last lesson about the process Mr. Derdzinski went through to reconstruct “Navaer”
[Elostrion] These are his words:
[Elostrion] Quenya _namárië_ means ‘be in goodness’ and consists of _na-_ ‘be’ + _márie_
[Elostrion] ‘goodness’. My reconstruction is a hypothetical evolution of EC
[Elostrion] _*na-magariie_ to Sindarin form. The intervocalic _-m-_ becomes _-v-_ in
[Elostrion] Sindarin, the intervocalic _-g-_ vanishes, and long _-a-_ becomes affected
[Elostrion] by final _-iié_ and becomes a diphtong.
[Elostrion] And we have _*navaer_
[Elostrion] This represents a fairly simple example of reconstruction.
[Elostrion] Compound words are simple in comparison.
[Elostrion] If one wanted to deduce what a Quenya word would have changed to over the evolution into Sindarin…
[Elostrion] One would have to trace all the changes all the way back to Primitive Elvish and then follow the chain forward to Modern Sindarin.
[Elostrion] This can get extremely complicated.
[Elostrion] As you can well imagine.
[Elostrion] I don’t have any exampled for you now, because I have not had the need to attempt to do anything of this sort myself.
[Elostrion] I think I’m ready to take questions now.
[Elostrion] Are there any?
[Vardaer] i think i have some
[JulieOh] Can the 4 alterations be added to any word form (e.g., nouns and verbs both), or is it more restrictive? We’ve seen “u-” with verbs, but I’m not familiar with vocab enough to know of others.
[Not_Maedhros] What is the difference between pen- and al-?
[Elostrion] When “u-/ú-” is added to verbs it is being used as a completely different particle.
[JulieOh] ahhh, okay, so these are noun-modifications only, then?
[Elostrion] Even though it has somewhat the same effect, don’t think that this is true for all of the prefixes/suffixes I listed.
[Elostrion] Yes JulieOh
[JulieOh] thanks! OK, I’m done. Next. 🙂
[Vardaer] k, i do not get diminuitive
[Vardaer] do something else with that, please
[ILookLikeLuthien] okay, I have missed the lessons before, so I shall read them before I ask any questions about this one…but a few
[Elostrion] Adding the diminutive suffix simply diminishes the meaning.
[Elostrion] “Dwarf-let” is a bad example, something like “small-Dwarf”
[Vardaer] ah
[Vardaer] ok
[Vardaer] sort of like, maybe an insult, perhaps
[Elostrion] I suppose it could be.
[Vardaer] no
[Vardaer] ok
[ILookLikeLuthien] I have a question that isn’t specific to this…but is it helpful at all to already be on the bilingual path when trying to learn Elvish?
[Elostrion] Oh absolutely!
[Vardaer] i wouldnt think so
[Not_Maedhros] What is the difference between pen- and al-?
[ILookLikeLuthien] Alright, because I am taking French currently also, I’m in my third year of that
[Elostrion] If one has some previous experience with language study, it is immensely helpful.
[Vardaer] i am just gettting this confused with german and some french
[ILookLikeLuthien] Splendid.
[ILookLikeLuthien] This should be different enough from French that I will be okay…I hope…
[Elostrion] “pen-” means “less”
[Elostrion] “al-” means “no/not”
[Not_Maedhros] Ah
[Not_Maedhros] pen is without, al isn’t?
[Not_Maedhros] :p
[Elostrion] “pen-” = “without, lacking, less”
[ILookLikeLuthien] so that’s why al-firin is immortal…I see
[Not_Maedhros] I see.
[Bullmaiden] what’s the difference between “al-” and “u-“
[ILookLikeLuthien] Elostrion, I do appreciate this, and I will read the transcripts of the earlier lessons hopefully before I come to the next lesson also.
[Elostrion] Not much Bullmaiden
[Not_Maedhros] BTW, thanks for posting the Namárië/Navaer reconstruction.
[Elostrion] I am happy to hear that ILookLikeLuthien
[Elostrion] You’re welcome Not_Maedhros
[Thoronog] Why is ú- considered pejorative and al- considered negative?
[Elostrion] This is based on Mr. Derdzinski’s theory. I don’t know his exact reasons.
[ILookLikeLuthien] I think it would help to think of Pejorative as having a negative feel, and to think of Negative as meaning opposite…
[ILookLikeLuthien] Pejorative seems to have that tone of negativity, if you follow me.
[Bullmaiden] agreed
[Elostrion] Exactly, negative “reverses” the meaning
[Thoronog] pejorative means “disparaging”, but ú- is just an opposite, isn’t it?
[Elostrion] You are absolutely right ILookLikeLuthien
[ILookLikeLuthien] sweet!
[ILookLikeLuthien] I like it when I understand languages, they’re so fascinating.
[Elostrion] It is, but I think here it conotates more than just a “360”
[Vardaer] yes, it is
[ILookLikeLuthien] Elostrion, are there many tenses in Elvish, such as the Imperfect, subjunctive, conditional, et cetera?
[Elostrion] Remember that these were used in actual attested Tolkien text.
[Elostrion] Oh dear yes.
[Elostrion]There is:
[Elostrion] Infinitive, Continuative Present, Aorist, Past, Irregular Past, Continuative Future, Simple Future, Subjunctive, etc.
[ILookLikeLuthien] Good. Because I seem to understand tenses fairly well, the only time that I really get behind in French is if I don’t put in the effort to memorize.
[JulieOh] is there any difference between u- and ú- ?
[Eruner] isn’t the existence of the aorist and the two future tenses debated?
[Elostrion] No, simply alternates of each other.
[ILookLikeLuthien] Aorist, I have never hears of that tenst…this should be fun.
[Elostrion] It is Eruner
[Eruner] ah
[Elostrion] Aorist implies a timless truth
[Not_Maedhros] Sheep eat grass.
[Elostrion] It will be fun.
[JulieOh] are there any strict rules as far as when to use one over the other? (u- and ú-)
[ILookLikeLuthien] About how many lessons do you think there will be? Just as a sort of guess.
[Not_Maedhros] vs sheep are eating grass.
[ILookLikeLuthien] (sorry Julie)
[Elostrion] Not that I’ve come across JulieOh
[19:30] at least that’s how it is in Greek
[JulieOh] ok, thanks
[Not_Maedhros] The sheep are eating grass is the present tense. The sheep eat grass is aorist.
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh okay!
[Not_Maedhros] “The sheep eat grass” imples that the sheep eat grass as a continual habit.
[Eruner] in Quenya, the aorist is like a normal present tense while the present tense is like the present continuative
[Vardaer] i have neber heard of aorist before
[Elostrion] I hope to continue with a more “in-depth” series after we finish this beginner’s course. But, I suppose around 7/8.
[Eruner] aorist is a tense in Quenya and a suggested tense in Sindarin
[Vardaer] will you teach quenya, too
[Vardaer] i would like to learn that
[ILookLikeLuthien] thank you, because in French I have learned present, future, past, imperfect past, future using the verb to go (i know it’s French name, not its English), and conditional, and I am starting subjunctive now
[Eruner] download ardalambion’s course!
[Not_Maedhros] http://www.ardalambion.com/
[Vardaer] ok
[Vardaer] ill go there
[Not_Maedhros] Helge K. Fauskanger = teh god.
[Eruner] thaks maedhros
[Elostrion] I actually prefer Sindarin, but if once we are done with Sindarin.
[ILookLikeLuthien] I would like Sindarin more…is that what is used in the films?
[Eruner] indeed
[Eruner] 😉
[Thoronog] Elostrion, you didn’t mentioned anything about these prefixes causing mutations
[Elostrion] Mostly
[Elostrion] That is all encompased within Consonant Mutation
[Elostrion] I will mention it then.
[ILookLikeLuthien] I am in such a good mood now that I’ve gotten to participate in at least one of these
[Eruner] when will we get to mutations?
[JulieOh] is that next week’s topic?
[Elostrion] In 3 weeks
[Eruner] ok
[JulieOh] ok, thanks. Need to prepare. 😉
[Elostrion] We still have Conjugation!
[ILookLikeLuthien] I don’t know what mutations are necessarily…
[ILookLikeLuthien] conjugation is fun.
[ILookLikeLuthien] Memorization.
[ILookLikeLuthien] Are there many regular verbs?
[Elostrion] please visit:
[Elostrion] http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/elvish
[Eruner] mutations are certain changes that can happen to the first consonant of a word…they’re remarkably annoying
[Elostrion] I believe my consonant mutation charts are up
[Elostrion] I love them!
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh.
[Eruner] well, but they’re a pain to memorize
[Elostrion] They add to the theme of ridiculous complication.
[Eruner] oh yes, of course!
[Bullmaiden] LoL
[ILookLikeLuthien] Alright, so if I go there…will it have many different things on it?
[Elostrion] I don’t understand?
[Eruner] what’s your opinion about the “irregular” past tense i.e. car > agor?
[ILookLikeLuthien] go to that website
[Not_Maedhros] Nixon dirksen nasahist, rebozo boogaloo…
[Elostrion>]Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it Eruner
[ILookLikeLuthien] will it have many different elvish topics, I mean
[Eruner] ok
Not_Maedhros likes to cross bridges before he sees them.
Eruner lauges at Maedhros
[Elostrion] I got a new game today, so I’m going to go if no one has any objections.
[Eruner] laughs
[Eruner] ok
[Eruner] thanks, elostrion
[Eruner] when will the transcript be up?
[Elostrion] It is absolutely my pleasure!
[JulieOh] go ahead, thanks as always, Elostrion!
[Bullmaiden] Thanks
[Not_Maedhros] What game?
[Vardaer] thanks elostrion
[jincey] thanks elostrion : )
[Eruner] hen hannon
[Not_Maedhros] Thanks for the lesson Elostrion.

Posted in Old Special Reports on March 6, 2003 by

Comments are closed.