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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 28, 3:56pm
Post #1 of 16
(1957 views)
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Votes are in, and the Shire wins--hosts and suggestions needed!
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We knew it would triumph, anyway, as it always has, no matter what's thrown at them. http://newboards.theonering.net/...post=1008539#1008539 There were some suggestions for how to go about a Shire-related discussion: - "I wonder if we could group the early and late chapters of LOTR together to discuss hobbits and how they shaped the Shire and how it shaped them: what makes hobbits tick overall. (And why does Gandalf like them so much but no one else?)"
- "I like the 'Evolution of hobbits and how their seed of courage had been awakened,' because we see that happen with the four main hobbits and if we wanted to talk about Bilbo in the Hobbit also we see that happening.
- Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin have all evolved and matured and none has been unchanged from the Quest and it is so interesting to have a multi-part discussion on this. I think each hobbit should take a week at least."
- "I hope we can still have a separate convo about hobbit culture. There would be overlap with the Fab Four, but that wouldn't be bad."
And more! You can read all of the suggestions at the above link.
What I'm thinking is to move from the general to the specific. What would you all think of starting with the idea of the Shire "bookends" (Shire to Shire?) as in the first comment, and focus on culture and how individual characters fit into/don't fit into the Shire culture; and how those characters shape it, and how the Shire shapes the characters. This would include minor as well as major Hobbit characters, and possibly references to "outsiders" like elves and dwarves, etc. And then we could perhaps focus on the 4 main Hobbits and their development, inducing the awakening of courage. What do you all think?
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 28, 3:57pm)
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elentari3018
Rohan
Mar 29, 1:12am
Post #2 of 16
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What you mean by "general" to specific" --does that mean hobbits in a general sense of what their race means in the wider world and historical view of Middle-earth? And then we go into the specific (BIlbo, Frodo, etc? ) and even Sandyman and Lotho and Lobelia as specific? I think they've all changed.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29, 1:22am
Post #3 of 16
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Oh, I meant the Shire itself as a place and culture,
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since it was the location that got the most votes. And of course the characters are a part of that, but I was thinking of "The Shire" itself as a starting point, like CuriousG said both before and after the War of the Ring. Like discussing the culture of Rohan, before getting down to in-depth examinations of characters like Eomer, etc.
The place--not just the "race."
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elentari3018
Rohan
Mar 29, 1:24am
Post #4 of 16
(1802 views)
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I'm for that long discussion. :)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 29, 3:26am
Post #5 of 16
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I would be happy to host a discussion of trees in the Shire.
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And perhaps flora and fauna in general, as well as trees. But mostly trees.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 29, 3:42am
Post #6 of 16
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What I'm thinking is to move from the general to the specific. What would you all think of starting with the idea of the Shire "bookends" (Shire to Shire?) as in the first comment, and focus on culture and how individual characters fit into/don't fit into the Shire culture; and how those characters shape it, and how the Shire shapes the characters. This would include minor as well as major Hobbit characters, and possibly references to "outsiders" like elves and dwarves, etc. And then we could perhaps focus on the 4 main Hobbits and their development, inducing the awakening of courage. What do you all think?
And I'll need to sign up for something, but my thoughts are bouncing around too much right since so many avenues are possible. I'm glad you're providing some discipline with general to specific. I'm thinking Bilbo's party could be 1-2 posts about general hobbit culture, including even the goodbye notes on the gifts he gave away and what that tells us about Shire culture.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 29, 11:11am
Post #7 of 16
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I suggest do *some* of it in book order
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I think that one reason it works for Tolkien to keep us in The Shire for several chapters is so that we can feel all the more keenly how wrong things are when our travellers return and see what Lotho, Saruman and the Ruffians have made of it. So to an extent we could follow along with that, and it would not for a moment preclude pieces such as Curious' idea about the trees.
One possible scheme (top of my head) would be:- Shire society (since we get a lot of this at the start of the book, what this is like and how it chafes the eccentric, cosmopolitan Bagginses)
- The Shire, a gazetteer. Once Three is Company, we get a tour of the unexpectedly wild and secret corridoor of The Shire. Other observations about places rather than society could fit in here too (either as part of one discussion, or as a sequence, so as to allow more specific starter posts such as a discussion of the trees)
- How did folks want to handle the 'growth of courage' aspect? I could imagine that working perfectly well as a standalone sequence in parallel to or after the series about The Shire. That might be best if teh link with The Shire itself is a bit tenuous. Or was the idea to look at how The Shire affects our Fab Four while they are away: determination ot save it; memories of it; attitudes and mindsets fostered by being of it's culture (both positive attitudes, and negative ones such as naievity and xenophobia)?
- The Shire, marred. What it is like under the Lotho regeime, and later as a colony of Isenguard. What the significance of this is in terms of "Mordor" being able to appear anywhere...
Floating around somewhere without a place in the sequence as yet is Gandalf's comment (to Merry, in 'Many Meetings') that "Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while; and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going." What do we think this 'power' is?
Now: I have two caveats:
- Firstly, this makes things very book-sequence plot and character based once again, and possibly people are weary and it's time for a new approach? (I have no evidence that this is a problem, so I suppose I'm just prompting anyone who feels the need for new ideas to suggest them). So please feel free to adapt or discard the above plan. I have no objection at all to another scheme that forum members would prefer.
- That's all the more so because I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute to this run. That's both because I have a lot to do in real life at present (don't worry: nice stuff!), and also because I've begun to notice myself increasingly repeating ideas and themes I've already posted earlier. That's begun to bore me, even if it isn't boring everyone else. And in general I'm finding it harder and harder to keep engaged. I'm just stale, I think, and I need the stimulus of responding to someone else's ideas rather than writing starter posts. So I can't undertake to lead any discussion, but I hope to pop up, Gandalf like, unexpectedly but in useful ways.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Mar 29, 1:06pm
Post #8 of 16
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Here's two topics that came to mind, without considering where they may fit into a series. If you draw up a schedule, I'll sign on.
Departures and Homecomings: Bilbo’s Shire vs Frodo’s Shire
Bilbo left the Shire twice (once in The Hobbit and once in The Lord of the Rings) and returned once.
Frodo also left the Shire twice and returned once.
How does Bilbo’s Shire and Bilbo’s experience of the Shire compare to Frodo’s?
This would encompass :
Changes in the Shire from the world of The Hobbit to the world of The Lord of the Rings.
Changes in the Shire from A Long-Expected Party to The Grey Havens
Bilbo’s worldview (Shire-view?) versus Frodo’s worldview from departure to homecoming to departure.
The Shire from Near and Far
How does the Shire, memories of the Shire or the idea of the Shire, work for characters when they are outside its borders?
How does the reality of the Shire align with Shire from afar?
This includes the Shire hobbits, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Saruman.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29, 9:53pm
Post #9 of 16
(1741 views)
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As a confirmed tree-hugger, I think that's a fabulous idea.
And, welcome back!
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29, 9:55pm
Post #10 of 16
(1741 views)
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not topics I've really seen pinpointed before. Sounds perfect.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29, 10:06pm
Post #11 of 16
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This guy can be in charge.
(I don't know what this is, but I couldn't resist.)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Mar 29, 10:10pm
Post #12 of 16
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"I think that one reason it works for Tolkien to keep us in The Shire for several chapters is so that we can feel all the more keenly how wrong things are when our travellers return and see what Lotho, Saruman and the Ruffians have made of it."
And you are always useful.
And your numbers 1, 2, and 5 would easily lend themselves to a more analyzing-of-society discussion, with plot more as an adjunct or illuminator.
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elentari3018
Rohan
Mar 29, 11:26pm
Post #13 of 16
(1736 views)
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Love these ideas and will think of many new ways to think about the Shire
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We can tentatively folllow this per week?
Also liked the idea of the Shire culture first and being book sequential and then lending to different characters per week?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 3, 10:13pm
Post #14 of 16
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Sounds good and a bit different to me
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And should keep us busy until autumn, probably! I will certainly be reading these and will try to post. If I can think of anything decent to contribute!
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Apr 4, 1:55am
Post #15 of 16
(1236 views)
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Looking forward to seeing you around the Shire, and telling us what you think of it all.
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elentari3018
Rohan
Apr 4, 2:00am
Post #16 of 16
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The idea of evolution of bravery
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Or was the idea to look at how The Shire affects our Fab Four while they are away: determination ot save it; memories of it; attitudes and mindsets fostered by being of it's culture (both positive attitudes, and negative ones such as naievity and xenophobia)? Can definitely be in the lens of how The Shire affects our Fab Four and how they have reacted throughout the Quest and how they've changed. The four hobbits do not have typical 'stay at home" kind of attitude about Middle-earth and the Shire and we see many instances that we can illustrate in the text of how they were expected to react but have done something opposite or something not necessarily "hobbit-like".
We can also look at this from an outsider non hobbit perspective, say from Aragorn or Gandalf or Faramir or Galadriel and Elrond and see that they've surprised the "Great ones."
As Elrond said "This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise form their quiet fields to shake the towers and cousnesl of the Great."
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Apr 4, 2:01am)
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