Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Trees in the Shire
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

CuriousG
Half-elven


May 21, 1:45am

Post #26 of 35 (468 views)
Shortcut
Sorry, but these are Sam's words [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
‘All right,’ said Sam, laughing with the rest. ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’



Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings: One Volume (p. 44). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21, 3:47am

Post #27 of 35 (455 views)
Shortcut
"Tree-man" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
‘All right,’ said Sam, laughing with the rest. ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’



Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings: One Volume (p. 44). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.



I know what Samwise said and it is irrelevant. I posit that Sam uses the term only in reference to the creature's height; He never witnessed the giant. Objection denied!

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 21, 3:55am)


Felagund
Rohan


May 21, 5:38pm

Post #28 of 35 (403 views)
Shortcut
I decry my dendritic duplication! [In reply to] Can't Post

Apologies for duplicating your original excellent point about the 'Tree-man' reference predating Ents in the creative process.

CJRT makes the very same observation in HoMe VI / The Return of the Shadow, and speculates whether this was "the first premonition of the Ents?". He also observed that there had been an even earlier reference to 'Tree-men' in the voyages of 'Eärendel', as reproduced in The Book of Lost Tales II.

And I agree with you, that by leaving in the reference, post- the inception of Treebeard and the Ents, Tolkien was likely playing on our sense of recall.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 21, 6:18pm

Post #29 of 35 (399 views)
Shortcut
Delightfully Deciduous Duplication. [In reply to] Can't Post

We're simply creating a forest. Smile

Thanks for the CJRT post. Nice corroboration of our inclinations!



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on May 21, 6:18pm)


Felagund
Rohan


May 21, 6:27pm

Post #30 of 35 (395 views)
Shortcut
surely [In reply to] Can't Post

... there's sufficient ambiguity to allow for both interpretations when it comes to how 'treeish' the Tree-men were?

A look at the draft text for the passage we're talking about makes for an interesting comparison. Here's the final cut again:


Quote
‘All right,’ said Sam, laughing with the rest. ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’


And here's the first draft:


Quote
'But what about these what do you call 'em - giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up way beyond the North Moors not long back.'


A second draft then introduced the 'Tree-Men', which stuck for the final cut. However, in the original conception, Sam was explicitly talking about a 'giant', who was at least as big as a tree - with nothing specifically 'treeish' about the creature in question. The reference to a tree can be read as a comparator, nothing more - identical in function to the reference to a tower (Tower-man, anyone...?). But the second draft and final version introduce the creature as a 'Tree-man' and a giant, bigger even than a tree. The comparator element is still present but the creature is called a Tree-man first and who also happens to be bigger than a tree. Tolkien has shifted from relative clarity (it's a giant) to ambiguity (it's a Tree-man and a giant). As the passage went through two drafts before settling down to the final version, I can't help but reckon that the ambiguity is deliberate or embraced as such during the creative process. Semantics, arguably. But just as arguably the source of sufficient ambiguity to entertain the idea that we have something Entish going on here, once the concept of Ents er, took root. As put much more efficiently by Ethel earlier.

Final random remarks. Giants appear elsewhere in the legendarium, notably in The Hobbit - the 'stone-giants'. Digging around in other ancient drafting history, within The Book of Lost Tales I, we have references to 'wood-giants' and 'mountainous giants'. And to not at all complete this multilayered picture, we have CJRT's observation in the aforementioned HoMe VI, that ent is the Old English word for 'giant', which Tolkien was deploying well before he got to Fangorn - for example in an early geographical name for what later became the Ettenmoors. What to make of all this? Apart from the stratigraphical joy I always take from perusing decades of drafts, it seems clear enough to me that Tolkien had been playing with giants and associations with different kinds of 'substance' for some time (wood, stone), so that by the time we get to what was published in The Fellowship of the Ring, a 'Tree-man' is eminently interpretable as Entish or a giant or both!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21, 7:54pm

Post #31 of 35 (388 views)
Shortcut
Halfast's Account [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... there's sufficient ambiguity to allow for both interpretations when it comes to how 'treeish' the Tree-men were?

A look at the draft text for the passage we're talking about makes for an interesting comparison. Here's the final cut again:


Quote
‘All right,’ said Sam, laughing with the rest. ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’


And here's the first draft:


Quote
'But what about these what do you call 'em - giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up way beyond the North Moors not long back.'


A second draft then introduced the 'Tree-Men', which stuck for the final cut. However, in the original conception, Sam was explicitly talking about a 'giant', who was at least as big as a tree - with nothing specifically 'treeish' about the creature in question. The reference to a tree can be read as a comparator, nothing more - identical in function to the reference to a tower (Tower-man, anyone...?). But the second draft and final version introduce the creature as a 'Tree-man' and a giant, bigger even than a tree. The comparator element is still present but the creature is called a Tree-man first and who also happens to be bigger than a tree. Tolkien has shifted from relative clarity (it's a giant) to ambiguity (it's a Tree-man and a giant). As the passage went through two drafts before settling down to the final version, I can't help but reckon that the ambiguity is deliberate or embraced as such during the creative process. Semantics, arguably. But just as arguably the source of sufficient ambiguity to entertain the idea that we have something Entish going on here, once the concept of Ents er, took root. As put much more efficiently by Ethel earlier.

Final random remarks. Giants appear elsewhere in the legendarium, notably in The Hobbit - the 'stone-giants'. Digging around in other ancient drafting history, within The Book of Lost Tales I, we have references to 'wood-giants' and 'mountainous giants'. And to not at all complete this multilayered picture, we have CJRT's observation in the aforementioned HoMe VI, that ent is the Old English word for 'giant', which Tolkien was deploying well before he got to Fangorn - for example in an early geographical name for what later became the Ettenmoors. What to make of all this? Apart from the stratigraphical joy I always take from perusing decades of drafts, it seems clear enough to me that Tolkien had been playing with giants and associations with different kinds of 'substance' for some time (wood, stone), so that by the time we get to what was published in The Fellowship of the Ring, a 'Tree-man' is eminently interpretable as Entish or a giant or both!



Since Sam never saw anything, we have to go back to his cousin Hal's account:


Quote
'[Hal] works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'

'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying that he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.'

'But this one was a big as an elm tree, and walking--walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.'

'Then it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.'

'But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm trees on the North Moors.'



I'm not saying that there isn't any ambiguity there; however, the way the story is told, a humanoid giant is more likely than either an Ent or an Huorn. Using the principle of Occam's razor, I have to call the subject of the sighting some manner of giant, troll or ogre, but probably not an Ent.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Felagund
Rohan


May 22, 5:42pm

Post #32 of 35 (338 views)
Shortcut
at moments like this [In reply to] Can't Post

I reach not for Occam's razor but rather... Flash Gordon's strigil ;)

Through using this wonderful tool, we can see clearly that the Tree Men of Arboria look like men but that Hawk Men look like men with hawk wings.

Given that Flash Gordon stormed across comic strips through the 1930s, 40s and 50s, Tolkien would have had plenty of opportunity to avail himself of the strigil while writing LotR.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22, 6:58pm

Post #33 of 35 (337 views)
Shortcut
Tree Men of Arboria [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I reach not for Occam's razor but rather... Flash Gordon's strigil ;)

Through using this wonderful tool, we can see clearly that the Tree Men of Arboria look like men but that Hawk Men look like men with hawk wings.

Given that Flash Gordon stormed across comic strips through the 1930s, 40s and 50s, Tolkien would have had plenty of opportunity to avail himself of the strigil while writing LotR.



I'm not sure that helps. I don't think the Tree Men were made of wood! Please, correct me if I'm mistaken.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 26, 5:20pm

Post #34 of 35 (264 views)
Shortcut
The rest! And apologies for the delay. [In reply to] Can't Post

Some health issues have been getting in the way, but I wanted to get back here, because trees are my favorites, and very much also because of the details and unexpected possibilities you bring out in your post.

8. Above the village of Woodhall is a literal wood hall made of living trees where the Elves rest and eat. Do you think any hobbits know about the Elves' wood hall? If not, why not? Does that hall even exist when the Elves are not present? Or is there some kind of magical protection from discovery? Is it possible that the village of Woodhall is named after the Elves' wood hall by some hobbit long ago who met with the Elves?
"Above the village of Woodhall is a literal wood hall." My feeling is--that with what little I've gathered about many English place names--that there's frequently a very old history in regard to many such names: and that in many instances those place names will refer to some old Saxon, or Roman or even more ancient Celtic or (in Scotland) Pictish fortification or other meaningful type of place having once existed in that area, even when those place names have changed quite a bit, so that research has to be done to trace the original (when possible). In this case you mention, it's still actually contemporary. I can't imagine that the two are unrelated. Hobbits (as Oliphaunt has posted above) were used to seeing Elves passing through, and I'm sure an odd Took or two, plus some more curious-minded locals may have followed them and caught a glimpse of the Elves unusual living-tree structure. Interesting, in a way, that no Hobbit tried to duplicate such a feat, unless Hobbit-children might have tried doing so on a small scale, like some of us have done as children, building little huts and forts.

9. Was Frodo's bower made by a living tree with a bed of fern and grass made by the Elves, by the tree, or both? Do the Elves talk to the trees? Can they make requests? Or are they more like human gardeners who have guided the design of the trees over the years so they have an outdoor camp in the Shire with a hall and comfortable beds? Do you have any other potential explanation? Are the Elves just good Boy Scouts?
I see it as a temporary structure made by the Elves just for that night, because such a thing would have to have been made by bending the branches of a small tree down very low towards the ground, and that could, it seems to me, damage a tree if it was done quickly and then not undone soon after. Or, it was a slow process of training those branches to form the bower over a longer period of time, so it would be a permanent living structure.

I wouldn't put it beyond the Elves to have been communicating with these trees to some extent; but since they weren't Huorns and I don't think they were really conscious even in the sense of the consciousness of the Old Forest trees, I think it's mostly Elves' exceptional skills combined with a love of natural, living things both artistically and practically arranged, with the desire to avoid actual destruction of these natural resources.

10. The trees seem accommodating as long as the hobbits stick close to roads and paths or are guided by the Elves. But when Frodo decides to take a short-cut across country, suddenly sticking to a direction becomes difficult, and indeed the hobbits end up walking several miles south instead of east.
Are the trees guiding them south, the way the trees in the Old Forest guide the hobbits to Old Man Willow? If so, why? Do the trees know Farmer Maggot? Did they guide the hobbits to him? Is it good or bad that the hobbits end up walking a different direction that takes them far from their intended path? What are the pros and cons of taking a longer route than intended?

Or is the hobbits' detour just the result of trying to walk straight through rough country where no path exists?
I really do think it's just this last. I personally don't think either that Farmer Maggot would have that much influence on his land, or that the undergrowth had that sort of conscious desire to help the farmer. One of the worst barriers was the stream, which I don't think was likely to have changed course. However! Tolkien did write here that "the bushes and brambles were reluctant to let them through." I love how Tolkien does it again--is this a metaphor, or does this vegetation have a will of some sort? I like to think that it does indeed--but that it's just the bushes and brambles guarding themselves against intruders, not on behalf of anything larger or from anyone but themselves.

11. Tolkien names elms, alders, birches, firs, oaks, hazels, ash, and mallorn. Can you pictures those trees? Why is Tolkien so specific? Elms, as my favorite tree, yes; and birches, firs, oaks and ash. Hazels, I can only picture the 2 bushes in my backyard. I never learned to pick them out in the wild. And Mallorns, oddly, I never have been able to picture in detail.

I think Tolkien was so specific because he really loved trees, and wanted to give us a picture of and feel for the landscapes he wanted us to "see."

12. Why did Saruman / Sharkey order the trees in the Shire destroyed? There's no indication that he used all the wood. Was it just spite? Or did he consider these trees his enemies and a threat to his dominion over the Shire?
Spite, yes, but more than that, he hates anything naturally good and beautiful. Not only does he have that "machine" type of mind, he's also grown to despise and to wish to destroy things that aren't mechanical, artificial, and controllable by himself. But more specifically, I think he's still taking revenge on the Ents, even if he can't do so directly--and even if Ents may never know about it. His hatred has outgrown pretty much anything else he ever had going on in his personality.

13. Why didn't the hobbits, over hundreds of years, cut down more trees? Why did they leave a large chunk of the Shire as a wild forest? They didn't have such a great relationship with the Old Forest. Why did they have a different relationship with Woody End?
Others with more knowledge than I have, have answered this better than I could; but as far as the Old Forest is concerned, Hobbits do have some idea that it's a dangerous place and should be avoided--which is in fact the case. Woody End it's just a normal set of woods.

14. Did the hobbits ever cut down living trees for wood? During Saruman / Sharkey's brief reign, many Hobbit-holes were destroyed and replaced with wooden shacks. Did wooden shacks exist before Saruman came to the Shire? Was it possible that the hobbits just harvested dead trees for their limited needs? Might they have some kind of unspoken truce or even alliance with the trees in the Shire that they don't have with the hostile Old Forest? Or are the trees just trees and not at all "awake" like the trees in the Old Forest?
I don't think I have anything much to add other than what has been said much better by other post–ers. Smile

15. Tolkien explicitly shows us mobile and awake trees in the Old Forest and Fangorn Forest. But he never shows us mobile and awake trees in the Shire, at least not without ambiguity. Why not? Is it because the Shire doesn't have such trees? Is it because the Shire is more like the real world -- in the late 19th century -- than the rest of Middle Earth? Is it because Tolkien wanted to suggest that trees are awake in the real world?
Personally, I like to think it's a combination of your last two questions, although I don't think Tolkien really thought that trees are actually awake in the real world, but that they are much more important than we very often think they are. However, I don't think it was beyond him to kind of wish to place that suggestion in our minds, at least at some level.

16. In many ways Tolkien was considered a reactionary, but his love of trees and natural environments and dislike for industry and wanton destruction of nature gave him a connection with the radical youth and environmentalists of the 1960s and 1970s. But is Tolkien's love of trees typical of any British people before the 20th century? Or is it an example of early 20th century disillusionment with industry and nostalgia for forests that were eagerly destroyed for fuel, ships, and other uses in earlier eras?
After all, the United Kingdom is one of the least wooded countries in Europe, and the country only started to expand forests in the 20th century. Someone must have cut down all those trees.

In short, is Tolkien's love of trees and natural environments really reactionary at all? Or is he, perhaps unwittingly, just as radical about trees and nature as the youth of the 1960s who embraced his books?
I'm just not enough of an historian to know if any British people were passionate about forests and wanted to preserve them, although I'm absolutely sure some were. I don't personally know about any movements or anything like that, though, which took place prior to Tolkien's era.

I like your idea that in this sense Tolkien wasn't entirely reactionary, even though it's been said here that what he really wanted wasn't wild neolithic woods but the tended forests of the more recent past. In fact, to dislike industry and wanton destruction of nature could be both reactionary and radical. After all, the "radical youth and environmentalist of the 1960s and 70s" (which I watched happening as a younger teen with a great deal of hopeful approval) could easily be seen as reactionary, hearkening back to people like Audubon. Or as C. S. Lewis is quoted as saying: "Would you think I was joking if I said that you can put a clock back, and that if the clock is wrong it is often a very sensible thing to do? But I would rather get away from that whole idea of clocks. We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on May 26, 5:33pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Wed, 3:31pm

Post #35 of 35 (133 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for the belated reply! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope your health problems are all in the past now.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.