|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
May 16, 7:52pm
Post #1 of 19
(841 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent analysis of who Galadriel was and her innate powers
|
Can't Post
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NATnZGhkIkc
Too bad the Galadriel of ROP bears no resemblance to the Galadriel of canon. Her power was so beyond physical - she should have exuded radiance and mystery.
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
May 27, 6:09pm
Post #3 of 19
(606 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It is definitely 'too bad', both literally and figuratively...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Too bad the Galadriel of ROP bears no resemblance to the Galadriel of canon. Her power was so beyond physical - she should have exuded radiance and mystery.
As with many filmic bastardizations of Tolkien's work, it is unfortunate that creating a fan-fiction of a character is more expedient than actually presenting the character in his (or in this case, her) original manifestation. Thus, we see a Xena Warrior Princess version of Galadriel that does not at all gibe with her history, rather than a true person of power, who studied under the tutelage of Melian the Maia and is one of three holders of an Elvish Ring.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on May 27, 6:10pm)
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 27, 8:15pm
Post #4 of 19
(596 views)
Shortcut
|
I think it would be odd to show Galadriel as ethereal and powerfully otherworldly throughout her entire life, as if she had sprung fully formed from Valinor. At least Warrior Galadriel gives the character room for change and growing wisdom. I hope we do see that growth by the end of ROP with Galadriel choosing 'another path', away from war and towards persistent endurance during the long defeat.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
May 27, 9:11pm
Post #5 of 19
(587 views)
Shortcut
|
|
And then there's the author, Tolkien himself,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
who had one version of her story where Galadriel fought--yes, fought physically--on the side of her kin, the Teleri, when Feanor was leading his rampage in Valinor and stealing their ships. She was ethereal when she wanted to be.
Kinda reminds me of a version of Gondolin's fall where Idril had every intention to stay and fight and was decked out in special armor for it, even though it was hopeless. I think Turgon or Tuor had to persuade her to decamp for her son's sake.
(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 27, 9:12pm)
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
May 27, 9:34pm
Post #6 of 19
(577 views)
Shortcut
|
who had one version of her story where Galadriel fought--yes, fought physically--on the side of her kin, the Teleri, when Feanor was leading his rampage in Valinor and stealing their ships. She was ethereal when she wanted to be.
There is a distinct difference between a single instance of fighting at utmost need in defense of the innocent, as opposed to gallivanting about in the guise of a vengeful knight errant with a bloody swathe of bodies trailing behind them.
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 27, 10:08pm
Post #7 of 19
(572 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I have got to re-read The Sil.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's been years - maybe 15? - since I last dived into it and my memories are more 'vibes' at this point. I had an idea that Galadriel had been involved in battles but I couldn't remember the details. I really need to polish my fan-badge again.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
May 28, 1:38am
Post #8 of 19
(553 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But she was. She was born in Valinor and lived under the light of the trees.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Those high elves were much more powerful than other elves, She was trained by Melian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqT12eNsfGk
Why Was Galadriel so Powerful? Middle-earth Explained
Men of the West
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 28, 1:40am)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
May 30, 6:03pm
Post #9 of 19
(453 views)
Shortcut
|
|
in descriptions outside the 1977 Silmarillion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Just in case anyone looks into the Silmarillion, Galadriel is not, in this book, said to have fought at Swanhaven
For the constructed version, Christopher Tolkien appears to have employed text from the early 1950s, in which (I argue) all the Finarfinians "still" arrive too late to be part of the Kinslaying. This version includes the Finarfinian responses (about the Kinslaying) to Melian and Thingol as well.
And so far, in my opinion, the descriptions in which Galadriel does fight are much later than the early 1950s.
The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later): "though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, . . ."
"The Adumbrated Tale" (1973), described by Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales: ". . . indeed, she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde. . ."
[Galadriel is here removed from the Rebellion however, which disagrees with already Tolkien-published description in The Road Goes Ever On]
Cover Page to Galadriel and Celeborn, The Nature of Middle-Earth:
". . . at sack of Alqualonde. How she fought with Celeborn."
[note: all the description on page 349, including this statement, was struck out by Tolkien]
Carl Hostetter characterizes the cover page as apparently much later
(than the text Galadriel and Celeborn), and I agree, and so I'm guessing the following example is fairly late too:
Marginal Note (see Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman, commentary on section 149): "Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde."
Finrod too?
Anyway.
I'm not saying "later" means anything other than later, although I will say that I prefer what I think is the 1977 Silmarillion story -- that Galadriel (and Finrod) simply weren't there while the fighting was going on.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
May 30, 7:58pm
Post #10 of 19
(442 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks for all the sleuthing, Elthir!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's a lot of sources to track down and reconcile. And people can reach their own conclusions, but it seems clear to me that Tolkien thought Galadriel was perfectly capable of participating in battle and holding her own, but she also probably only did so once or twice in a lifetime. She wasn't fighting battles every week like Xena the Warrior Princess.
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 30, 8:39pm
Post #11 of 19
(435 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks for laying that all out, Elthir. 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
May 31, 3:17am
Post #12 of 19
(425 views)
Shortcut
|
One could say Galadriel was on an entirely diffferent plane from a power standpoint, and wouldn't necessarily need to concern herself with hand-to-hand combat.
I always marvel that Tolkien mentioned as almost an aside that Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur and cleansed its pits of evil.
This she did after the One Ring was destroyed. Talk about potency!
|
|
|
Felagund
Rohan
May 31, 5:03pm
Post #13 of 19
(352 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Lúthien, similarly swordless and potent
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I share your marvel and it's also a great link across/back to the power of the daughter of Galadriel's one-time mentor, who similarly threw down a dark fortress - and saved her boy to boot ('Beren and Lúthien', The Silmarillion):
Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare...
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
May 31, 6:35pm
Post #14 of 19
(337 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There's something scary about Tolkien's magic vs other depictions
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
and I think for me it's that he doesn't do a more cinematic version of, say, "The sorceress gathered a ball of fire in her hand, and from that ball of fire leapt ten blazing rivers of fiery destruction that focused on the castle's foundation and overwhelmed it with their force, topping it and laying bare its pits."
I'm fine with that kind of magic--it's cool to watch and experience. But Tolkien is very spare with his description like the one you gave, where Luthien just speaks boldly and dramatically, and a bunch of things happen, and maybe it's the simplicity that's awe-inspiring but also that it's mostly unseen. Anyway, I love those Luthien/Galadriel moments.
|
|
|
Felagund
Rohan
Jun 1, 5:35pm
Post #15 of 19
(299 views)
Shortcut
|
Couldn't agree more. The sparse, sometimes archaic construction of Tolkien's descriptions of 'power in action' is part of what lends power in turn to the sentences we're talking about, I reckon.
And great observation on Galadriel's power at Dol Guldur after the fall of Sauron. I hadn't considered the two side by side before, in terms of how the latter would interact with the former. Nenya, at that point, was presumably just nice jewellery rather than a Ring of Power in the original sense. A further thought on this: I wonder if Nenya was relevant, in its 'prime' so to speak, in a hypothetical where Galadriel exhibited her power at Dol Guldur before the fall of Sauron and the unmaking of the One Ring. Gets us into the whole 'what were the powers of the Three?' discourse, I realise!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1, 6:22pm
Post #16 of 19
(293 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I suspect Nenya "faded" rather than had a sudden, total power failure
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think that because of G. laying bare the pits and then months later,
Quickly fading into the stones and the shadows the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.
Well, it flashed with some kind of residual power, right?
My other thought is that Tolkien just plain contradicted his own lore. I'm OK with that. There's Elrond patiently lecturing Glion at the Council:
But they [the Three] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
But Elrond flooding the Bruinen to wipe out the Nazgul is not what I would call an act of "understanding," and the appendix story of Galadriel both defending Lorien and attacking Dol Guldur:
Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
Plus she told Frodo
But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy.
Still, I think it's always clear that Galadriel has magic power of her own, so how much we accord to Nenya and how much to her is anyone's guess.
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 1, 8:55pm
Post #17 of 19
(277 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think, contextually speaking....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
When Elrond says, ..."Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained," to preserve is also to defend that which is to be preserved. So those acts of Elrond and Galadriel do not speak of domination but defense, in the case of Elrond's action at the Ford, and healing, in the case of Galadriel renewing the land marred by Dol Guldur.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 1, 9:53pm
Post #18 of 19
(271 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Very much so. The intensity of the held back moment.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It reminds me of a review I cannot now find of the Leonard Bernstein movie, Maestro, where the reviewer mentions that at a certain point where the music just holds itself tense, the actor kept moving his baton around with quick little motions, where in RL, the musicians that played under his direction said that Bernstein would hold the tension at such times with a still baton, and an almost mesmerizing "attitude" for lack of a better word, just for that moment, which is what gave passages of that sort their power (and beauty), really beyond words (I grew up watching Bernstein, in a family of violinists).
It also reminds me of that encounter with Eomer where Aragorn reveals and does not reveal his latent kingship and authority: " . . . and in his living face they caught a brief vision of power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown."
"Brief"; "vision"; "seemed"; "flickered"; "like" [a shining crown]. So many words of suggestion, and very little definite. But this is a moment where we can really feel that Aragon is the king to come indeed. And then it's largely hidden again. If Tolkien had talked about visible crowns, or something that was definitely a crown appearing, or if everyone had seen what Legolas saw and all the "seems" turned into "was" or "were," it might almost seem more like a teen fiction story. It's incredible how he handles language, like something melting in a crucible where the slightest variation from the perfect temperature turns the contents into a completely different substance.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Jun 1, 9:54pm)
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 1, 10:01pm
Post #19 of 19
(266 views)
Shortcut
|
I do also think, like CuriousG, that she had plenty of power of her own; and it's not given by Tolkien to us mere mortal readers to be able to tell where one ended and the other began (or the nature of a possible "blend").
|
|
|
|
|
