{"id":25524,"date":"2003-07-16T18:27:29","date_gmt":"2003-07-16T23:27:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/2003\/07\/16\/elvish-lesson-3-transcript\/"},"modified":"2003-07-16T18:27:29","modified_gmt":"2003-07-16T23:27:29","slug":"elvish-lesson-3-transcript","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/2003\/07\/16\/25524-elvish-lesson-3-transcript\/","title":{"rendered":"Elvish lesson #3 Transcript"},"content":{"rendered":"<p class=\"intro\">Here&#8217;s the transcript of Elvish lesson #3<\/p>\n<p>*** Log file opened: 7\/9\/2003 <\/p>\n<p>[Gorlab] Aiya!<br \/>[Gorlab] Elvish are real languages&#133;<br \/>[Gorlab] They have a comprehensive structure&#8230;meaning&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] Really they are best termed a simulated language&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] A lesson in linguistics and code&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] More than some &#8220;practical&#8221; speech of an existing language in the primary world&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] It may be odd when you think about it,<br \/>[Gorlab] but Tolkien created his languages first and then created stories based on it&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] not the other way around.<br \/>[Gorlab] So as a work of art, the elvish languages have an absolute validity towards studying them&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] as one would study a piece of music by composers&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] Hello everyone!<br \/>[Gorlab] And welcome to another zany installment of Elvish 101&#133;<br \/>[Gorlab] Tonight&#8217;s episode: The Elvish Noun!<br \/>[Annatar] Greetings<br \/>[Gorlab] Tonight Kris Nelson, (as Gorlab) and Paul Dunne and Jeff Sherrill (as Injvstice_Annatar) will conduct tonight&#8217;s chat&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Excellent<br \/>[Gorlab] We are zoning in on the Noun tonight.<br \/>[Gorlab] Nouns, of course, are Person, Place, or thing&#8230;.<br \/>[Gorlab] Idea, Animal, Mineral, or Vegetable&#8230;<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] I wonder what category I fit into<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Nouns operate by very different systems in Sindarin vs. Quenya<br \/>[neitmol] probably idea<br \/>[Gorlab] The source for most Nouns can be found in the &#8220;Etymologies&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya they are heavily inflected, whereas in Sindarin there is very little inflection<br \/>[Gorlab] Quenya nouns are full of affixes&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] btw, the Ardalambion site is also a good source for noun lists<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] go ahead Gorlab<br \/>[Gorlab] These are letters or groups of letters inserted into different places in a word<br \/>[Gorlab] pre-fix = before the word<br \/>[Gorlab] in-fix = in the middle of a word<br \/>[Gorlab] suf-fix = at the end of the word<br \/>[Gorlab] Quenya nouns are &#8220;inflected&#8221; by &#8220;case&#8221; forms&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] and by number<br \/>[Gorlab] There are 10 cases that have different endings attached&#8230;.<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] there are 8-9 cases&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] or 10<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] *-)<br \/>[Gorlab] with one mystery case&#133; but that&#8217;s not important right now&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] The UN-inflected form of the noun is the noun itself&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] The Nominative form<br \/>[lotr_chick] is Sindarin difficult to learn?<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;house&#8221; is a noun<br \/>[Gorlab] Not too difficult, no&#8230;.<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] harder or easier than Quenya?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] yes because of the phonological changes<br \/>[Gorlab] None of the Elvish languages are when you get used to the rules&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] basically in Sindarin phonological changes denote a change from singular to plural<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] however, Sindarin does not use case ending, per se<br \/>[lotr_chick] oh<br \/>[Gorlab] It seems like a lot of information, but really it is simply a reorganization of the way information is presented within a language&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] noun relationships depend on word order and prepositions<br \/>[neitmol] like Spanish&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] you see, what the case endings actually are, are the prepositions of English&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] We would say &#8220;book&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] In Quenya, it is &#8220;parma&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya these relationships are determined by case, such as the Nominative, to return Gorlab to the subject<br \/>[Gorlab] In English, I would say &#8220;on the book&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] But Quenya only has one word for it:<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;parmasse&#8221;<br \/>[Ide] no more complicated than German, really.<br \/>[neitmol] how would you say that?]<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Or Latin<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] That is an example of the Locative case<br \/>[Gorlab] the &#8220;-sse&#8221; ending is the Locative case&#8230;<br \/>[lotr_chick] what part of parmasse is book then<br \/>[Gorlab] parma<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] which function for in and on<br \/>[Gorlab] Pahr-MAH-seh<br \/>[neitmol] hmm<br \/>[neitmol] so this is Quenya<br \/>[Gorlab] Yes, Quenya grammar is similar to Latin<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] -sse- would then be the Locative affix<br \/>[Gorlab] Sindarin grammar is similar to Welsh<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] though Quenya actually cases than Latin<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] or about as many<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Actually Sindarin mutation (phonological) is like Welsh<br \/>[neitmol] So what would be more functional of the two forms of Elvish?<br \/>[neitmol] Sindarin?<br \/>[Gorlab] Either and Niether&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Quenya is more &#8216;ready made&#8217;<br \/>[neitmol] right&#133;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] but Sindarin is what you get in LOTR<br \/>[lotr_chick] so they are just as hard to learn?<br \/>[Gorlab] Niether language can be spoken in complete fluency&#8230;<br \/>[lotr_chick] oh<br \/>[Gorlab] Even Tolkien was not a native speaker&#8230;<br \/>[neitmol] except by the elves of course <br \/>[PippinSkywalker] LOL<br \/>[neitmol] \ud83d\ude42<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] lotr_chick, the difficulty is up to you<br \/>[lotr_chick] ok<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] there are generally more and easier to understand means to learn Quenya<br \/>[neitmol] if one has a grasp of both forms<br \/>[neitmol] one can actually&#8230;figure it out <br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] however, you get more Canonical Sindarin<br \/>[neitmol] from both forms<br \/>[Gorlab] But you CAN learn to read, write, and write in Tengwar with a certain degree of fluency&#8230;<br \/>[neitmol] ok<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] back to the noun, We&#8217;ve mentioned the Nominative and Locative case<br \/>[neitmol] let us move back to nouns then <br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] We&#8217;ll get to Tenqwar another day<br \/>[Gorlab] Yes, indeed&#8230;the Dative case&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] is the ending (or suffix) &#8220;-n&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] it functions as the prepositions &#8220;for&#8221; or &#8220;to&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] such as<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in English that would be the &#8216;indirect object&#8217;<br \/>[Gorlab] ni = &#8220;me&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] nin &#8221; &#8220;for me&#8221;<br \/>[neitmol] or &#8220;to me&#8221; ?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] yes<br \/>[Gorlab] (Perhaps the Knights of Ni were shouting &#8220;me me me&#8221; the whole time?)<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] *gives neitmol a star*<br \/>[lotr_chick] so is the n for?<br \/>[Gorlab] (sorry)<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] \ud83d\ude42 Gorlab<br \/>[snuh] lol<br \/>[neitmol] to indicate whether the subject is for or to something&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in Sindarin the noun is made Dative by place by placing it directly after the subject<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] an example Onen i-Estel Edain<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in this case &#8216;Edain&#8217; is the indirect object<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] the direct object is i-Estel<br \/>[neitmol] hope<br \/>[Gorlab] Yes&#133;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] So to correct my earlier example you have Onen (I gave), i-Estel (the hope), Edain (to the Dunedain)<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] What is the nominative form of Edain?<br \/>[neitmol] edai?<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] I was wondering that too, never seen Edai used.<br \/>[neitmol] I remember in the extended edition of Fellowship<br \/>[neitmol] Edai was used<br \/>[neitmol] by Haldir<br \/>[neitmol] in a flet<br \/>[neitmol] mentioning Aragorn of the Edai<br \/>[neitmol] n<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in Sindarin Edan is singular, Edain is plural<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] sorry Adan, not Edan<br \/>[neitmol] okay<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Now, that&#8217;s confusing!   \ud83d\ude42<br \/>[neitmol] \ud83d\ude42<br \/>[Gorlab] Which corresponds to Atan in Quenya<br \/>[Gorlab] Atani plural<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Ni, nin &#8211; Adan, Edain?<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Quenya nouns seem easier to learn.<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] that is an example of plural mutation in Sindarin<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Maeglin, Quenya sentance structure is harder to learn<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Since the case causes all sorts of things we do not do in English<br \/>[Gorlab] Speak like Yoda you will if Quenya learn you must&#8230;<br \/>[neitmol] heh<br \/>[Gorlab] the Ablative case&#8230;<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Ahhh&#8230;. now that&#8217;s not difficult. Also similar to Latin or German sentence structure. OK, thanks.<br \/>[Gorlab] has the ending &#8220;-llo&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] and means &#8220;from out of&#8221; <br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;Sindanoriello&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;from out of a grey-land&#8221;<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Sounds Italian<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] it does a bit<br \/>[neitmol] pronounced?<br \/>[Gorlab] The stress and phonology IS a bit Italian sounding&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] sin dah NOR yellow<br \/>[neitmol] So this is still Sindarin?<br \/>[Gorlab] sinda = grey<br \/>[Gorlab] norie = &#8220;country&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] -llo = &#8220;out of&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] you&#8217;ll find this example in &#8220;Namarie&#8221; in FOTR<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] any questions here?<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] So &#8220;Singollo&#8221; (Thingol) would be &#8220;of the grey cloak?&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] approximately<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] it is short of Sindacollo<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] oops that is short FOR Sindacollo<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] So there are a lot of elisions and mutations here&#8230;?<br \/>[Gorlab] Got your ablative mixed up with your dative&#8230;:)<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] yes very much so<br \/>[Gorlab] A few elisions in Quenya&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] that can bring us to Dative case<br \/>[Gorlab] Sindarin has most of the softening characteristics of mutation..<br \/>[Gorlab] did Dative first&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] -n<br \/>[Gorlab] ni = &#8220;I&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] nin = &#8220;for me&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] Ladies and Gentleman&#8230;the Dative&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] lets move on to Genitive<br \/>[Gorlab] Plural forms of the noun are added on afterwards&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] ah..Genetive case&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] has the ending &#8220;-o&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] the Genitive case reflects possession or more precisely being of someone or thing<br \/>[Gorlab] and generally seems to correspond with &#8221; &#8216;s &#8220;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in English<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] I though ni was me?<br \/>[Gorlab] ni changes to &#8220;me&#8221; in the Dative&#8230;<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] oh ok<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] thus Roma or &#8220;horn&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;the book&#8217;s red words&#8221; in English&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] the horn of Gondor<br \/>[Gorlab] becomes &#8220;i parmo carne quettar&#8221; in Quenya&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;Romo Gondor&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] of &#8220;I romo Gondor&#8221;<br \/>[neitmol] so ni turns to no&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] of=or<br \/>[Gorlab] no = &#8221; being&#8217;s&#8221;<br \/>[neitmol] or &#8220;one&#8217;s&#8221;?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] or &#8220;its&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] however Sindarin does this job without cases<br \/>[Gorlab] Yes, although there are different endings for possessive pronouns&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] for example, (from FOTR) Ennyn Durin Aran Moria<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;Doors of Durin, King of Moria&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in this case Durin and Moria are genitive, but they take no case<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] word order is enough to reflect possession<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] So proper names don&#8217;t change for case?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in Quenya yes, in this case of Sindarin no<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] How would a person&#8217;s name change in Quenya&#8230;. example?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] again from Namarie<br \/>[Gorlab] Vardo<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;Vardo tellumar&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;somes of Varda&#8221;<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Meaning &#8220;Varda&#8217;s?&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;domes of Varda<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] yes<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you.<br \/>[Gorlab] Speaking of the Namarie poem&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] We have a phrase that everyone here&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] should be able to use in a bar or other eating establishment&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;Si man i yulma nin enquantuva&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] &#8220;Who now shall refill the cup for me?&#8221;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] &#8220;yulma&#8221; is an interesting stem<br \/>[Gorlab] it is the nominative form of the noun &#8220;cup&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] a similar verb derivation&#8230;.<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] because as a verb it indicates more than simple ingestion of liquid&#8230; <br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] but rather the kind of imbibement associated with carousing<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] was the cup line Sindarin?<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Quenya<br \/>[Gorlab] Namarie is a poem in Quenya&#8230;<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] ok<br \/>[Gorlab] because Galadriel was the last of the Noldorin exiles to stay in Middle Earth&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] which is why her people spoke Sindarin&#8230;<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] perhaps they said it on Gondolin after a hard days work<br \/>[Gorlab] but she still knew the speech of the blessed land of light..<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Gondolin<br \/>[Gorlab] yulme is the verb &#8220;to drink&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] but specifically to drink with carousal in mind..<br \/>[Gorlab] simply to ingest fluid is &#8220;sucin&#8221;<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Connotative   \ud83d\ude09<br \/>[Gorlab] exactly, its connotation is different!<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Remember, &#8220;c&#8221; is &#8220;k&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] So, at this point I must wish you a toast to the fair people of Elvish 101&#8230;thank you so much for coming&#8230;..<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Tolkien had a sense of humor   \ud83d\ude42<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] he did indeed, the stem for cat is apparently &#8220;miauo&#8221;<br \/>[Gorlab] we will have another exciting installation of Tolkien&#8217;s humorous in-jokes in one week&#8217;s time&#8230;<br \/>[Gorlab] doves are called &#8220;cu&#8221;<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Thanks for the lessons, I&#8217;m logging these chats for person reference.<br \/>[Gorlab] Namarie!<br \/>Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)<br \/>[jincey] : )<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] in the meantime,, look up the derivation for Smaug, not Elvish, but funny, Namarie<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Smog? Dragon-breath?   \ud83d\ude09<br \/>[inJvstice_Annatar] Goodnight, &#8220;Mara Lomme&#8221;<br \/>inJvstice_Annatar has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)<br \/>jincey asks how are y&#8217;all liking these lessons?<br \/>[Maeglin_Lomion] Love &#8217;em! Thanks for bringing these guys to us, jinc.<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] great grammar by Elvish! LOL<br \/>[jincey] i wish y&#8217;all could see them in person<br \/>[jincey] they are great : )<br \/>[jincey] they do sessions at Dragon*Con<br \/>[PippinSkywalker] oh!<\/p>\n<p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Here&#8217;s the transcript of Elvish lesson #3 *** Log file opened: 7\/9\/2003 [Gorlab] Aiya![Gorlab] Elvish are real languages&#133;[Gorlab]&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":17,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"inline_featured_image":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[138],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-25524","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-old-special-reports"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p1tLoH-6DG","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25524","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/17"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=25524"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25524\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=25524"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=25524"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.theonering.net\/torwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=25524"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}