There’s been a bit of a break since the last posted transcript, but here’s a new bunch of three to bring everyone up to date. And you can access the entire set via the Barliman archives.
[Lesson 6] [Lesson 7] [Lesson 8]
Day: August 23, 2003
There’s been a bit of a break since the last posted transcript, but here’s a new bunch of three to bring everyone up to date. And you can access the entire set via the Barliman archives.
[Lesson 6] [Lesson 7] [Lesson 8]
<inJvstice> greetings
<inJvstice> well Gorlab (Kris) may be joining us later in the session
<
<Annatar> Annatar here Aiya!
<Alorin> Suilaid
<Annatar> first order of business, did anyone catch the lessons we did about Qenya or Sindarin verbs?
<jincey> i did…. but don’t count me ; )
<The_One_Ring> i missed it.
<Annatar> or, or that matter, Quenya 😉
<Beruthiel> I think so, but can’t remember
<Annatar> OK, how about last week’s Tengwar lesson?
<Beruthiel> nope
<Annatar> OK
<Annatar> First off,
<Annatar> inJvstice will show how the inscripiton on the title page of LOTR is constructed
<inJvstice> o.k. so I’ve been asked to mention a bit about the runic inscriptions
<inJvstice> does everyone have a copy of ROTK?
<Beruthiel> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> yesss
<The_One_Ring> yup
<The_Mighty_Turnip> or course
<inJvstice> specifically the Title Page, and appn. E
<The_One_Ring> yup
<inJvstice> k, in Appx E there is the basic chart for the Tengwar Characters
<inJvstice> Tengwar is the plural form of Tengwa (or letter)
<Beruthiel> ok, found it
<inJvstice> well to begin with this is the basic way each of the tengwar is presented
<inJvstice> These letters represent basic phonetic sounds,
<inJvstice> so they can be used to represent any given language.
<inJvstice> For instance one could use them to write in Quenya, Sindarin, or English
<inJvstice> (or any other language for that matter….Russian, Spanish, etc….)
<The_One_Ring> but, isn’t it easiest in quenya/sindarian because of the consonant clusters, and diphthongs?
<The_One_Ring> etc.
<inJvstice> well yes. in a sense
<Elaran> no…
<inJvstice> The Tengwar are somewhat originally formed for Quenya
<inJvstice> however, by changing the values along certain phonetically logical lines
<inJvstice> they can be used for any language
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<inJvstice> English is somewhat difficult since there are several letters which have similar sounds
<inJvstice> k and q for instance
<inJvstice> so
<inJvstice> hmmm there is a site where you can find the tengwar values for most languages
<inJvstice> Quenya, Sindarin, English, a few others
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/
<Beruthiel> http://mimas.ceti.pl/tengwar/ott/english.php how about this one?
<inJvstice> the sites contains charts for Quenya, Sindarin, Sindarin Beleriand, and English
<inJvstice> I like these since they use the same structure as the appx E
<inJvstice> While giving you all the needed values for each letter
<inJvstice> anyhooo. I tried this last week and discovered that this is not a good medium for teaching Tengwar use…..
<inJvstice> I can’t demonstrate
<inJvstice> so I’ll simply say this….
<inJvstice> that by following the charts with English values, you can translate
<inJvstice> the Title Page inscription
<inJvstice> which in Roman Characters reads….
<inJvstice> “of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the Hobbits”
<jincey> of westmarch?
<jincey> nothing before that?
<inJvstice> this is the bottom of the page
<Alorin> of.. like about
<inJvstice> the top of the page in the Cirith Runes reads “The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book”
inJvstice> (thats the first part of the whole thing)
<Beruthiel> never knew that
<jincey> nice : )
<inJvstice> I’ve not made much study of the Cirith….though appx E also contains translations for the Cirith
<inJvstice> for now there is a tengwar textbook that ban be downloaded from
<inJvstice> http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001
<inJvstice> this a truely remarkable textbook on how to use the tengwar
<Beruthiel> got it
<inJvstice> also the use of the tethar, which are the diacritic marks above and below the tengwar
<inJvstice> you’ll see these in the title page inscirption.
<inJvstice> these are the vowels
<The_One_Ring> im getting it now
<inJvstice> kewl
<inJvstice> thats about all I can really do right now on tengwar….
<inJvstice> so I’ll let y’all look at that for the next few weeks or so
<The_One_Ring> i already have this, though, but i haven’t really looked at it.
<inJvstice> At any of our chats if you’ve any questions I’ll be around to answer them
<The_One_Ring> yet
<jincey> folks, y’all head to atlanta for dragoncon labor day weekend…
<inJvstice> it is worth a look see
<jincey> see these folks in person : )
<inJvstice> yes thanx Jincey, I and my compatriots will be there running this in person
<Elaran> lol
<inJvstice> There I’ll be able to give better instructions and to demonstrate the use of the tnegwar
<Beruthiel> wish Atlanta was closer
<inJvstice> until then the text book is a great resorce
<Beruthiel> then Jincey can teach us!
<The_One_Ring> if only i could drive…
<inJvstice> I’m going to attempt a slide show or some other medium to cover this online
<inJvstice> though I might be able to before the DragonCon
<Beruthiel> there’s a workshop at the Toronto Gathering that I’ll be going to
<The_One_Ring> awsum.
<inJvstice> for now I’m going to turn over to Annatar……
<Annatar> Hello..
<Annatar> I usually appear in these chats as Annatar
<Annatar> but my name is Paul
<Beruthiel> hi Paul
<Annatar> Sindarin is the area I usually cover,
<Elaran> i lam arth 😉
<Annatar> but I also do a lot of phonology,
<Annatar> or pronunciation, if you will
<Annatar> Sindarin is particularly interesting in that its elements often change their sound
<Annatar> according to what their “job” is in the sentnce
<Annatar> altough this sounds a lot like a “case system” such as you’d have in, say Latin or Russian
<The_One_Ring> im learning quenya right now, but do you suggest also learning sindarian?
<Annatar> it’s not normally described like that
<The_One_Ring> similar to russian. thats good.
<Annatar> Honestly,
<Annatar> I think that it is a good idea to try learning Quenya first
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> as TORN no doubt knows
<Annatar> there is a good Quenya course at Ardalambion.com
<The_One_Ring> i am using that.
<Annatar> which everyone rightfully refers to as the place you need to go
<Annatar> for Sindarin, http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/
<Alorin> Annatar.. there isnt much information about Sindarin phonology around.. and the info that there is, usually speaks of the pronounciation of vowels and letter separately
<Annatar> is the place to go
<Annatar> needless to say, what we know about
<Elaran> as opposed to what Alorin?
<Annatar> Sindarin phonology
<Annatar> is somewhat fragmentary
<Annatar> however, there seems to be ageneral agreement amongst scholars
<Annatar> (one of whom I am not)
<Annatar> as to what Sindarin sounds like
<Annatar> This allowed David Salo to write Sindarin dialogue for PJ’s LOTR movie
<Annatar> although the pronuciation is not always what everyone would like
<Annatar> case in point
<Annatar> it’s
<Annatar> in a 2 syllable word
<Annatar> the stress always falls on the 1st syllable
<Annatar> this rule applies to bith Sindarin and Quenya
<Annatar> both
<Annatar> However, the guide in App.E of LOTR is usually sufficient
<Annatar> as a guide to pronunciation
<Annatar> when you her JRRT reading some of his own poetry
<Annatar> in both Quenya and Sindarin, it is consistent with his written guidelines
<Annatar> next week, I’ll try to do a quick review of the Sindarin verb
<Annatar> and intruduce sound mutations
<Annatar> it’s not really that hard though
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we all know that
<Annatar> I’ll just give you one more online resource
<Annatar> http://www.aboriginemundi.com/sindarin/related.htm
<Annatar> this will link you to a truly KILLER Sindarin dictionary
<Annatar> there is also a Windows app that encapsulates this dictionary
<Annatar> now, to close this session, Kris, aka Gorlab will say a few words about Quenya,
<Gorlab> Hello everybody, this is Kris Nelson here now…
<Gorlab> I deal with the Quenya end of things…
<Beruthiel> hi Kris
<Gorlab> Quenya is, of course the “other” Elvish tongue…
<Gorlab> as opposed to Sindarin…
<Gorlab> In the inner story, Quenya was the language spoken by the three tribes of elves that lived across the sea from Middle-Earth in Aman – land of the Gods….
<Gorlab> Those three tribes were the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri….
<Gorlab> The Noldor spoke what could be viewed as the closest thing to “book” Quenya as you can get…
<Gorlab> The Vanyar spoke a slightly different dialect and there were features of Telerin that could almost be considered a seperate kind of language, but for the most part they all spoke QUENYA…
<Gorlab> When the Noldor left Aman to return back to Middle-earth they brought Quenya with them…
<Gorlab> but not before they slaughtered some of their kin, the Teleri, to do it…
<Gorlab> when this fact was discovered by the Sindarin king Thingol, Quenya was banned in public in the kingdom of the Sindar and became a “book” tongue…
<Gorlab> Quenya survives into the third-age Lord of the Rings era through Galadriel and some of her speeches in Lothlorien…
<Gorlab> Galadriel, of course was one of the Noldorin exiles from way back in the 1rst age and so is one of our only native speakers…
<Gorlab> As for the language itself…
<Gorlab> it resembles Finnish in some aspects….
<Gorlab> because that was one of the languages of Tolkien’s heart…
<Gorlab> one of the languages that he approved of aesthetically…
<Gorlab> and it is the languge of the Kalevala, the finnish mythological epic that inspired a lot of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion…
<jincey> so we could go into #kontu and hear something akin to quenya?
<
<Gorlab> Yes, something akin to Quenya..
<Gorlab> actually, I met two lovely Finnish skiers who let me assail them with Quenya phrases…
<Gorlab> they remarked about how similar it DID sound…
<Beruthiel> lol
<jincey> really?
<Gorlab> Very Good lessons are available on Helge Fauskanger’s site, Ardalambion
<Gorlab> It is his Quenya course.
<The_One_Ring> ok. councilofelrond.com has a sindarian course, but i havnt looked at it yet. have you seen it? do you think it would be any good?
<Gorlab> Helge’s course has lessons, examples, problems, and keys and is very good for beginners, as it shows what we know and what we don’t know about Tolkien’s languages…
<Annatar> I, too am curious about their course
<Annatar> Unfortunately, it conflicts with my schedule
<Elaran> lol
<Elaran> <--- tis my course
<Annatar> However, Sindarin right now is in a fair amount of flux,
<Annatar> and all that we can determine about its stucture and vocabulary
<The_One_Ring> ok
<Annatar> is of use to the general Tolkien linguistic community
<Annatar> up until the movies
<Annatar> much effort was being dedicated towards Quenya
<Annatar> but now with the new movie-based LOTR interest,
<Annatar> there has been a great upsurge on Sindarin interest, and new scholarship as well
<Annatar> that’s it for me, but Gorlab has a few things to say
<jincey> ok
<Gorlab> So, to wrap things up,
<Gorlab> Next week we are going to hopefully cover some Elvish phrases…
<Gorlab> We have, (for those who have been before) covered pronunciation
<Gorlab> nouns
<Gorlab> verbs
<Gorlab> in both Sindarin and Quenya.
<Gorlab> With some detouring into pronouns..
<Gorlab> For those who are new,
<The_One_Ring> what about adjectives?
<Gorlab> it really isn’t that hard to catch up and catch on…
<Beruthiel> I have gone into the acrchives and read the other sessions that are posted there
<Gorlab> We are going to slip in some descriptive terms once we have our objects interacting with our subjects…
<The_One_Ring> ok.
<Gorlab> Building this way we can make more and more complex sentences…
<The_One_Ring> i see.
<Gorlab> You all are wonderful people to be here like this and be interested in keeping Tolkien’s spirit alive through exercising his creation..
<jincey> you are wonderful for sharing your knowledge with us : )
<Gorlab> I must go fight Dragons now, so I hope to see you all next week – Namarie!
<jincey> night guys!
<Alorin> Navaer, Gorlab.. Le hannon ‘ni l ‘fb i ‘f3nech ammen!
Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
Annatar has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
<jincey> thanks for coming y’all 🙂
<Annatar> tonite will be the sindarin verb
<GollumsGal> ok.
<GollumsGal> i teach Elvish lessons myself, but i just wanted to see what you guys were teaching
<Lothengriol> Does anyone know if “galen” is singular or plural?
<GollumsGal> singular
<Lothengriol> Thank you.
<GollumsGal> ur welcome
<Lothengriol> So mirgalen would be green jewel?
<GollumsGal> well, i would say it as galen m”r, personally
<GollumsGal> since it’s Sindarin
<Lothengriol> Oh, I thought if it followed it meant “of the..” Thank you again
<GollumsGal> well, according to The Languages of Tolkiens Middle Earth, adjectives go before the word they describe
<jincey> hiya gorlab : )
<Gorlab> ‘Ullo!
<GollumsGal> what’s that mean?
<Gorlab> Thanks!
<Gorlab> Ullo?
<jincey> hiya : )
<GollumsGal> what does mode change mean?
<Gorlab> It’s a written approximation of a cockney accent…
<Gorlab> Ah….
<GollumsGal> huh?
<GollumsGal> oh
<GollumsGal> hey, Gorlab, can i ask u a question before the lesson?
<Gorlab> Certainly.
<Gorlab> Fire Away…
<GollumsGal> ok. i’ve never been to any of your lessons before, but i was reading the transcript to lesson 4, and i got confused
<Gorlab> what particular part?
<GollumsGal> on the pronouns
<Gorlab> What confuses you about the pronouns?
<Annatar> Quenya or Sindarin?
<GollumsGal> u see, i teach Elvish myself, and in all my sources, i never found any sentence with -nye as “I”
<GollumsGal> except in utuvienyes
<GollumsGal> but i thought that -yes meant “it”
<Gorlab> -s means “it”
<GollumsGal> at least that’s what it says in The Languages of Tolkien’s Middle Earth
<Gorlab> Ruth Noel’s?
<GollumsGal> yes
<GollumsGal> brb
<Gorlab> Some of the information in Ruth Noel’s book has been superceded by information published after her book was….
<Lothengriol> I read that nad tried to learn some, but now hear that it isn’t definative
<Gorlab> …such as the History of Middle earth series and some publications like Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon….
<Gorlab> To answer GollumsGal’s question,
<Lothengriol> Wouldn’t it be wise to edit it and republish it, rather than earn a bad reputation?
<Gorlab> 1rst person Singular Present tense (“I am”)….
<Lothengriol> brb
<Annatar> I am personally unaware of the author’s intention regarding that book, but it appears that the publisher simply couldn’t resist
<Gorlab> is made by combining the present tense verb na- ( “is”) with the 1rst person singular -nye to caom up with “nanye”
<Gorlab> come up with, excuse me
<GollumsGal> ok, i’m back
<Gorlab> the “ye”portion of -nye can be shortened to just “n”
<Annatar> So it’s no precisely a pronoun, but more of “pronomial” ending that does the job of indicating number and person
<Gorlab> making it “nan”
<GollumsGal> yes, ok, i knew that
<GollumsGal> ok, thanks for yur help
<GollumsGal> *your
<Gorlab> Yes indeed, avatar!
<Gorlab> 😉
<GollumsGal> avatar?
<Gorlab> No problem, GollumsGal…
<GollumsGal> oh
<Gorlab> Avatar…has it become that time?
<Lothengriol> I’m back, I couldn”t find the etymologies. Now I have the big book out.
<Annatar> ava=go, flee tar=lord
<Gorlab> er…I mean Annatar…
<Gorlab> ava is “don’t”
<Annatar> and Gil-Galad would not treat with Annatar…
<Annatar> ok
<Gorlab> Ahem…..Annatar – is it about that time?
<Annatar> Mae govannen y’all
<Annatar> Good evening and thank you for coming
<Gorlab> elen sila lumenn’ omentielvo everypeoples!
<jincey> hi y’all : )
<GollumsGal> a na le, mellyn
<Gorlab> Tonight – that wonder of wonders….
<Annatar> Yes, i’ve already seen the trailer, so let’s talk about Verbs!
<Gorlab> (drum roll please)
<Gorlab> SINDARIN VERBS!!!!
<Annatar> let’s all hear it for the Sindarin verb!
<Gorlab> Huzzah!
<GollumsGal> yay!
<Annatar> Happily, some good work has been done concerning the Sindarin verb recently
<Annatar> Helge Faukanger, to whom we so often refer, has done a rather complex derivation based on the theories of david Salo, who did th Movie Sindarin
<Annatar> however, Ryszard Igor Jerzy Derdzinski has simplified it without alteration
<Annatar> so, it is based on information at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm that I’l be basing this lesson
<Annatar> for all you newcomers, Helge is at http://ardalambion.com/
<Annatar> I take that many of you are already familiar with these sources
<Annatar> yes?
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes
<NerwenArtanis> yes
<GollumsGal> uh-huh
<Annatar> no is an ok answer too
<Annatar> so, here we go
<GollumsGal> well, with the first, not the other
<Beruthiel> got it now
<Annatar> alright, in both Quenya and Sindarin there are two kinds of verb
<Annatar> They are the Basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> Supposedly, this refers to the structure of [rimitive Elivsh
<Annatar> for our purposes, suffice it to say that they take slighlty different forms
<Annatar> because of their stems
<Annatar> we wil be covering 3 tenses–past, present and future
<Annatar> and 3 moods indicitive, supjunctive, and imperitive
<Annatar> and most confusingly we will deal with continuative vs. aorist senses
<Elessar_T> I gather this will be linguistic heavy
<Annatar> not that bad
<Gorlab> It’s not that difficult – everything should be defined and explained…
<Annatar> some of it’s harder to discuss than to do
<GollumsGal> what about auxiliary?
<Annatar> none just yet, but many aux. functions are carried out by these senses
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we’ll use the example ped-
<Annatar> which is the root for the verb “speak”
<Annatar> the Aorist sense would be “I am (always) speaking”
<Annatar> or “I (as a matter of course) speak
<Annatar> that would be “pedin”
<Elessar_T> just a question (I missed the start), is this Sindarin or Quenya?
<Annatar> but “I am speaking (rigth now) is “pidon”
<Annatar> Sindarin
<Elessar_T> ok
<Gorlab> We covered Quenya Verbs in lesson 5…
<GollumsGal> so the “tense” is ‘-o’
<Annatar> ped- is Baic verb, so it gets the vowel change
<Elessar_T> ok, guess I missed that one
<GollumsGal> oh
<Elessar_T> I see that it’s Sindarin now anyway.
<Gorlab> (no prob Elessar….lesson 5 should be posted any time now…)
<Annatar> -on as and ending applies to 1st sing –“I” for both basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> in the continuative (right now) sense
<Maeglin_Lomion> So the difference between “ped” and “pid” is perpetual vs. immediate?
<GollumsGal> ok, but if it didn’t have I as a subject?
<GollumsGal> *”I”
<Annatar> endings soon
<GollumsGal> ok, sorry
<Annatar> pidon=continuative pedin= Aorist
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> but let’s look at those endings shall we?
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Let’s!
<GollumsGal> yes, let’s
<Annatar> to begin with the continuative, it’s “pidon” and “pidam” for 1st person
<Annatar> singular and plural
<Annatar> that becomss “pidoch” and “pidach” for 2nd person familiar in sing and pl
<Annatar> “Pidol” and “pidal” for 2nd person Formal
<Annatar> and “pida” and “pidar” for 3rd person in Singular and plural
<Annatar> So, “we are speaking (now)” is “pidam”
<Annatar> “he/she/it is speaking now” is “pida”
<Annatar> dow this make sense?
<Annatar> does
<GollumsGal> yes, it does
<Elessar_T> it does to me
<Annatar> thanx
<Maeglin_Lomion> Yes.
<Annatar> Let’s now advance to the Aorist
<Annatar> We are still in the present tens, but now we are referring to more or less eternal conditions
<GollumsGal> now, what *does* aorist mean?
<Annatar> The example I have often used is that when my father says “the Yankee’s stink” he’s only currently disappointed with them
<Gorlab> The aorist, in a way is beyond specific tenses…
<GollumsGal> okÉ
<Gorlab> it denotes timeless truths…
<Annatar> however, when some mocks my beloved Cubs by saying “The Cubs stink” they mean that it’s and unchanging reality
<Zach> did i miss the elvish lesson?
<Annatar> jsut expling the Aorist sense
<Elessar_T> only the start of it
<Gorlab> “The Cubs stink” is certainly a timeless truth…
<jincey> lol
<GollumsGal> of course!
<Elessar_T> get back to the sindarin verb, thanks
<Annatar> Now, to form this wonderful sense of the verb, differest rndings apply
<Annatar> endings apply
<Annatar> starting with ped-
<Annatar> we get “pedin” and pedim” for the 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> notice that the “e” in ped- remains the same
<Annatar> you may also notice that “n” and “m” still end the word
<GollumsGal> so it only becomes “i” for continuative?
<Annatar> exactly, rushing on to 2nd person, we get for 2nd familiar
<Annatar> “pedich” in both Sing and pl
<Annatar> and for 2nd person Formal we have “pedil” for singular and plural
<Annatar> 3rd goes like “pEd” and “pedir” for singular and plural
<Annatar> the “E” indicates an accent (your choice)
<Annatar> so to say “he speaks” in the sense of “he speaks for all of us” you would use “pEd”
<Annatar> still with me?
<GollumsGal> so could that be pŽd?
<Annatar> I guess
<GollumsGal> ok
<Elessar_T> with you
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> still with you
<Annatar> the important thing is to indicate the long, that is actually lengthened vowel
<GollumsGal> still w/ ya
<Maeglin_Lomion> What was that 2nd character after the p, GollumsGal? I got a square box.
<GollumsGal> e with an accent
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> ’cause in Sindarin, the lengthened vowel is considered to be grammatically seperate
<Annatar> Tolkien never quite seemed to decide, so I can’t really either
<Elessar_T> accent and cirkumflex can both be applied to a vowel to indicate lengthened sound, right?
<Annatar> exactly
<Annatar> now let’s try a derived vowel
<Annatar> linna-
<Annatar> it means “sing”
<Annatar> now this follows about the same pattern of “ped-“
<GollumsGal> i thought it meant ‘chant’
<Elessar_T> sing and chant are quite synonymous, though
<GollumsGal> oh, ok\
<Annatar> BUT, it doesn’t have the vowel trans form in the stem that “ped-” does
<GollumsGal> why not?
<Annatar> ’cause it’s derived, and, and, well, it’s derived?
<Annatar> I don’t really know
<GollumsGal> k
<Elessar_T> but it is in most cases possible to see the difference between them, right?
<Annatar> but that’s the only real reason we’re messing around with “derived” vs. “basic,” which doesn’t really matter other wise
<GollumsGal> ok
<Annatar> from “linna-” we get “linnom” and “linnam” ind 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> “linnoch” and “linnach” for 2nd person familiar sing/pl
<Annatar> “linnol” and “linnal” for 2nd pers. sing/pl
<Annatar> and “linna” and “linnar” for 3rd person sing/pl
<Annatar> so it’s not really that different
<Elessar_T> why does the 1st person singular end with an “m”? it ended with “n” in basic verbs
<Annatar> sorry bad typing, you are correct
<GollumsGal> ok, whew
<Annatar> it should be “linnon” for 1st
<Elessar_T> ok, typo demons are annoying 🙁
<Annatar> to get to Aorist, we don’t really have to do much else
<Annatar> 1st person Aorist sing/pl is “linnan”/ “linnam”
<Annatar> 2nd person Familiar is “linnach” for sing and pl
<Annatar> 2nd Formal is “linnal” for sing/pl
<Annatar> and for 3rtd it’s “liina” and “linnar”
<Annatar> so, the endings and transfor mations should be alittle clearer now
<GollumsGal> what is 3rd singular?
<Elessar_T> how do you pronounce a double vowel? is it long like if it had an accent?
<Annatar> “linna”
<GollumsGal> oh, k
<Elessar_T> oops sorry
<Annatar> opps
Action: Elessar_T kills Annatar’s typo demon
<Annatar> thanx
<Annatar> now we’ll try to get into the past (tense)
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Kill the Typo Daemons….
<GollumsGal> lol
<Annatar> ist’s basically an insetions of “-nt” which mutates to “nn” in actual usage
<GollumsGal> what does that mean?
<Annatar> so, going 1st/2ndfam/2ndFormal/3rd we get
<Elessar_T> this goes for both basic and derived verbs?
<Annatar> this is where you see a siligh difference “pennin”/”pennim”
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> what is an insetion?
<Annatar> “linnen”/linnem”
<GollumsGal> could you like rewind and clarify?
<Elessar_T> insection is between the stem and the ending, right?
<Annatar> insertion, rather
<Elessar_T> ok
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> oh, ok, thanks
<Annatar> yes, exactly
<Elessar_T> infix is another word for it, I think
<Annatar> for 2nd familiar, we get “pennich” for sing/pl and “linnech” for sing. pl
<Gorlab> It is now Gorlab’s time to leave this fine hall…but I hope to see you all next week. Annatar will continue on in fine form as he has been for as long as he can but for me:
<Gorlab> Namarie!!!
<GollumsGal> bye
<Maeglin_Lomion> Namárië, Gorlab.
<Annatar> for 2nd Formal it’s “pennil” and “linnel”
<jincey> : )
<Annatar> and for 3rd, and this is the good part…
<Maeglin_Lomion> What does the root “pen” mean?
<Elessar_T> speak
<Annatar> ped- is to speak
<Maeglin_Lomion> How did we get to pen from ped?
<Elessar_T> but go on. 3rd person..
<Annatar> beut that -nt just kills the “d” and makes it “n”
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, thanks.
<GollumsGal> ok, but it is bsorbed by the n in linna?
<GollumsGal> *absorbed
<Annatar> for “ped-” 3rd sing is “pent” and plural is “pennir”
<Annatar> but for “linna-“
<Annatar> it’s “linnant” sing and “linner” ind 3rd person
<Elessar_T> why?
<GollumsGal> whoa, why?
<Annatar> this is where we see that ped- is a stem that ends in a consonant
<Elessar_T> wait, I see, basic/derived right?
<Annatar> and “linna- is a stem that ends in a vowel
<Annatar> yes, Elessar, thou hast got it
<GollumsGal> uh, Annatar, what would be the root for noro?
<GollumsGal> is it basic or derived?
<Elessar_T> I guess I’m just talented with languages 🙂
<Annatar> I had hoped to get to the future tense, which also comes in continuative and Aorist senses, but just go to http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm and if you’ve followed this so far, it shouldn’t be too hard
<Annatar> one sec, GG I’d have to look it up
<GollumsGal> k
<Annatar> “noro” like in “noro lIm Asfoloth,” right?
<GollumsGal> yes
<Elessar_T> sounds basic to me… but I’m not an expert…
<Annatar> “noro” would be in the imperative, which end is “o”
<Annatar> for basic, just add “o”
<Annatar> for derived substitute “o” for the vowel
<GollumsGal> k, i think got it
<GollumsGal> *i got
<Maeglin_Lomion> As in…pedo and linno?
<Annatar> Thank you all for coming, we’ll be back next week