As we all know, J R R Tolkien was, from an early age, fascinated by myth and heroic legend, reading all he could of the romances and epics of many nations.  In a letter to Milton Waldman, which appears in the Preface to the second edition of The Silmarillion, he wrote that he was ‘grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own … Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with the English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing…’

The Professor, then, had little time for the legends of King Arthur; but he did make one foray into those tales, and we are about to be able to read for ourselves the results of those labours!  Tomorrow, publishers Houghton Mifflin Harcourt release Tolkien’s narrative poem The Fall of Arthur, edited as ever by his son Christopher.  HMH’s press release tells us:

‘The Fall of Arthur, the only venture by J.R.R. Tolkien into the legends of Arthur, king of Britain, may well be regarded as his finest and most skillful achievement in the use of Old English alliterative meter, in which he brought to his transforming perceptions of the old narratives a pervasive sense of the grave and fateful nature of all that is told: of Arthur’s expedition overseas into distant heathen lands, of Guinevere’s flight from Camelot, of the great sea battle on Arthur’s return to Britain, in the portrait of the traitor Mordred, in the tormented doubts of Lancelot in his French castle.’

Alas, Tolkien never finished his poem; but amongst his manuscripts were sketches and drafts, which included ‘significant tantalizing notes. In these notes can be discerned clear if mysterious associations of the Arthurian conclusion with The Silmarillion, and the bitter ending of the love of Lancelot and Guinevere, which was never written.’

It’s a day of celebration for Tolkien fans whenever we have a chance to read more of the Professor’s work, and gain further insight into the explorations which lead to his great myth of Middle-earth.  You can read Houghton Mifflin Harcourt’s full information about the book here; and you can order your copy from Amazon by clicking here. The Fall of Arthur will also be available as an e-book.  Happy reading!

[Order The Fall of Arthur from Amazon]

————————————————————————————-

The (Biblical) Beacons of Gondor

By Tedoras — special to TheOneRing.net

This past April 28th happened to be the Jewish holiday of Lag B’Omer (the 33rd day of the Counting of the Sheaves, to be more precise). Now, you are probably wondering how this little-known holiday relates to The Lord of the Rings (and, if you’re like me, you’d like to know what a “sheaf” is, too). It turns out a sheaf is a bundle for cereal plants—fortunately for us all, though, my story has nothing to do with Biblical agriculture. Rather, it begins with The Return of the King.

If you are like me, you love those amazing fly-by shots from The Lord of the Rings films. One of the most epic sequences of such shots is the lighting of the beacons in ROTK (refresh your memory here). Whether your first encounter with these mountaintop fires was in literature or film, you probably thought it was an ingenious mode of communication. Certainly, they are by far the best means for sending urgent messages across long distances (and I hope the Gondorian who urged their construction was handsomely rewarded). In order to see the connection between these beacons and the aforementioned holiday, it is important to know the story of Lag B’Omer.

In short, Lag B’Omer commemorates a revolt in the year 131 CE. The Israelites, under the leadership of Bar Kochba, rose up against the Romans, who ruled the land at that time. Years before the Romans came, the Israelites had built a series of m’durot, or bonfires, upon the surrounding mountains. So, when the revolt began, (you guessed it) Bar Kochba ordered a beacon lit. A soldier took a torch to the top of a mountain, lit one the beacons, and thus sent word around the land that war had begun.

Certainly, the use of the beacons of Gondor to call for Rohan’s aid is reminiscent of this episode. Yet, was Tolkien inspired by this Biblical tale in his creation of the beacons? On the one hand, we know Tolkien was well-versed in the Bible; his contemporaneous English education saw to that. Furthermore, Tolkien was a lifelong scholar—thus, if not in school, it is likely he would have encountered this story on his own. Assuming Tolkien was acquainted with this tale, the unanswerable question here, of course, is whether or not he consciously recognized the Bible as their source.

However, on the other hand, a case can certainly be made that Tolkien knew not of the story of Bar Kochba’s revolt. For a realm the size of Gondor, it would make sense to have a system for mass-communication in the event of any important occurrence. And, while these beacons also housed fresh horses on stand-by for couriers, it is clear that signal fires would be a much faster means. The independent invention of the beacons is not only possible in terms of the technology available to Gondor at the time, but it is also becoming of the prudence and wisdom of the Gondorian kings of Old.

This is one of many familiar situations to us Tolkien fans: is there a “right” answer here? Personally, I do not think it really matters; I intended only to present a surprising and uncanny resemblance upon which I happened to stumble. But, of course, such a topic is up for interpretation—so I will let you decide for yourself.

Back in September 1999, these were the questions on the minds of fans…

Q:What role did Glorfindel play after the incident at the Fords of Bruinen? I don’t remember any further mention of him and it seems strange that such a noble Elven Lord would not be involved at all in the War of the Ring.

- Quinton Carr

A: He wasn’t. But if you think about it, many “noble Elven lords” did not do anything *active* in the War after the Fellowship left Rivendell or Lorien. Elrond, Celeborn, noble Elven ladies like Galadriel, Arwen . . . their roles were peripheral. Not to mention the fact that I’m sure both Elrond and Celeborn had a goodly number of strong, well-armed Elves at their disposal, who didn’t go with the Fellowship *or* down to the battles in Gondor. But the answer is actually pretty simple, and Elrond gives it to us in “Fellowship:” “The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.” So that explains why none of them went with the Fellowship. Why did none of these mighty Elves save Elrohir and Elladan ride down to Gondor once it was clear that there would be battle? My answer has a couple of parts. Firstly, Elrohir and Elladan, according to the Tale of Years, were born after the wars at the end of the Second Age when Sauron was thrown down, and were not a party to them as their father was. They’d never gotten their “chance,” so to speak. As for the rest of them, they had all gone to war against Sauron at the end of the Second Age. They felt their time had passed, and moreover that the hour of the Secondborn was striking. They knew that the power of their Rings would fade if Frodo was successful, and that Men would rise and Elves would dwindle. They must have felt it was right for the men, i.e. the armies of Gondor and Rohan, to earn for themselves the privilege of ushering in the Fourth Age.

Now, I don’t know how long Glorfindel had been alive at this point. Whether he was around at the first overthrow of Sauron, I can’t say. All I know is that he, like Elrond and Celeborn and Erestor and Cirdan and all, elected not to go down to the war this time. Turgon says that there is some speculation about an earlier elf, also named Glorfindel, who had been killed in battle. The question revolves around whether or not this is the same guy, somehow returned to life and to Middle-earth, or is it a namesake? I haven’t delved into the History of Middle-earth volumes, but Turgon tells me more Glorfindel information can be found in the Peoples of Middle-earth, volume 12 of the History, on pages 377-384.

-Anwyn

back to top

Q: I want to know if Bilbo was Frodo’s cousin or uncle.

- Heather Mackie

A: Chestnuts, chestnuts! The answer to this is in The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 1, page 1:

“Mr. [Bilbo] Baggins was generous with is money, … But he had no close friends, until some of his younger cousins began to grow up.The eldest of these, and Bilbo’s favourite, was young Frodo Baggins.”

If you take a look at Appendix C, “Family Trees” at the end of The Return of the King, you’ll see that Frodo was the Great-grandson of one Largo Baggins, whom Bilbo saw only as a Granduncle, if you can imagine such a thing. Now, according to modern American standards this familial relationship might seem quite thin, but in the Shire cousins are held very close to the heart, no matter how distantly related (unless of course you’re a Sackville-Baggins). Hobbits held great interest in their own genealogy, as Tolkien wrote, and the operative term “cousin” would probably be liberally applied to any of a number of different relatives.

- Quickbeam

Update!

Your answer about Bilbo and Frodo being “cousins” is accurate, as far as it goes. But their relation is slightly more complex than that, since they are related not only on the Baggins side, but on the Took side as well. But to explain it properly I have to refer to the technical names of different types of cousins, which most Americans, at least, do not understand.

A quick refresher course for those who do not share a Hobbitish interest in genealogy: the ordinal number before “cousin” (as in “first cousin”, “second cousin”, “third cousin”) refers to how many generations back you have to go before you reach siblings. If I had a son, he would be a first cousin with my sisters’ children. His children would be second cousins with my sisters’ grandchildren, and so on. Another way of looking at it is that first cousins share grandparents, second cousins share great-grandparents, and so on.

“Removed” refers to a difference in generation. Suppose I have a first cousin, and she has a daughter. That child is my first cousin once removed, the “removed” signifying that she and I are one generation apart. If she then had a son, that child would be my first cousin twice removed, and so on. If you think of a genealogical chart, you will notice that all first, second, third, etc. cousins will be on the same level horizontally; if you go one step down, you will get a “remove.”

All right: let’s apply this to Frodo and Bilbo. Looking at the chart in Appendix C, we find the common ancestor, Balbo Baggins. Among his children are Mungo and Largo; they are siblings. Mungo begat Bungo, and Largo begat Fosco; Bungo and Fosco are therefore first cousins. Bungo begat Bilbo, and Fosco begat Drogo; Bilbo and Drogo are second cousins. Finally, Drogo begat Frodo; therefore, Frodo and Bilbo are second cousins once removed — on the Baggins side.

But they’re also related on the Took side. Look at the Took family tree on the next page. You’ll see that Bilbo’s mother Belladonna Took was the sister of Mirabella Took, Frodo’s maternal grandmother. So (are you following this?) on the Took side, Frodo and Bilbo are *first* cousins once removed.

So while the short and easy answer is that Frodo and Bilbo are just cousins, the long answer is that, as the Gaffer explains on the third page of A Long-Expected Party:

“Mr. Frodo is his first *and* second cousin, once removed either way, as the saying is, if you follow me.”

I have no idea whether the readers of the Green Books would have any interest in this… but here it is, all the same.

–Si Rowe

Yes, indeed we ARE interested, and I appreciate the clarification! You’ve made easy work of this complicated family tree! And I really have no excuse for not knowing my trees.

–Quickbeam

back to top

Q: Does Saruman survive after he is killed? Sauron was killed three times before he actually died. They were both Maia and they both had the same master Aulë the smith. So is it possible that Saruman lived?

–Saruman19

A: Very, very good question. Let me start by quoting you the passage that is also in my second “Counterpoint;” it is Saruman’s death scene.

“To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.” [Excerpted from Return.]

To me, this seems final as regards Saruman’s demise, but let me first interject an interesting thought: Was Sauron ever actually killed before the War of the Ring? When was the last time he had a corporeal body? He “perished” once in the drowning of Númenor, and beyond that, I don’t know to which other two times you are referring, unless you refer to him fleeing Angband for Mordor, then at the end of the Second Age when the Ring was taken from him. As far as that last time, does it say he was killed, or merely that the Ring was taken and he was defeated? Sauron had long ago lost the ability to keep a corporeal body, but it seems obvious to me that his spirit was never dissolved before the Ring was destroyed. His own folly in putting the majority of his original power into an object outside himself was his undoing, in that when *that* “corporeal body,” the Ring, perished, the part of his spirit/power that was in it was dissolved, and the rest of his spirit could no longer survive. And on a final note about Sauron, he had long ceased to acknowledge Aulë as his master, and had been Melkor’s servant for as long as anybody could remember.

So, the point I’m making is that Maiar, good or evil, do not “die,” no matter what the state of their corporeal bodies, until their spirits are dissolved. I think it’s safe to say that Gandalf’s original corporeal form was killed in the battle with the Balrog. But at the end of the day, it was the spirit of the Balrog that was dissipated, not Gandalf’s, and those in charge (i.e., Valar) saw fit to allow him to take on another body. Sauron did not have the power, after the theft of the Ring, to take a body any more, and Saruman still had his own body. Well and good. Well, when Saruman’s body was destroyed, then what was left was the spirit, and the hobbits witnessed this being blown away on the West Wind. I feel that this was the final destruction of the Maiar spirit that had been Saruman, and that he would not have survived this. On a final note, my fellow Green Books staffperson Turgon mentioned that he had always thought of the breeze that blew away the mist as the Breath of Manwë. Talk about your poetic justice!

–Anwyn

Update!

A reader has written in to direct me to be more specific about the “death,” before the return, of Gandalf…

–Anwyn

In your answer to the question about Saruman’s death, you make a reference to Gandalf being returned after death by the Valar. That’s not exactly correct.

Gandalf’s words and a couple of letters by Tolkien (I can look up the exact references if you’re interested) indicate that when he was killed in his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf’s spirit left this world entirely, going beyond even the Valar’s ability to interfere. He was returned and imbued with new power by none other than Eru Ilœvatar Himself, the One.

–Tim Frankovich

back to top

Q: Do Tolkien’s Elves have pointed ears? (I’ve never found any reference to this in any of his writings, and many artists portray them without pointed ears…)

–Quinton Carr

A: This is a tough question that has baffled many Tolkien-readers for years and years. The only evidence there is, and it can be interpreted in several ways, comes from a letter Tolkien wrote to the American publishers of The Hobbit, sometime around March 1938. This letter, a response to a request for some drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, is published in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter no. 27, p. 35). Part of the description reads as follows: “A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’.” The quotes around “elvish” are Tolkien’s own, so what does he mean? Elvish, as in his own Elves? Or “elvish” as in what the recipient of the letter might think of as “elvish”–i.e., a more public idea of “elvish”? I suspect Tolkien meant the latter, but the remarkable thing here is that Tolkien does imply that Hobbits have ears which are “slightly pointed”.

–Turgon

Update!

Carl F. Hostetter pointed (no pun intended) us to another consideration that really makes a much stronger case that Tolkien intended his elves to have pointed ears. In “The Etymologies”, a very important work for the study of Tolkien’s Elvish languages, first published in The Lost Road (1987), the two entries given for the elvish element “las” show that “las”, as in the Quenya *lasse, meaning “leaf”, is possibly related to “las” meaning “listen”, and *lasse meaning “ear”. Tolkien wrote: “The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]” (The reading of the last word is uncertain in the lightly pencilled manuscript.) Fascinating!

back to top

Q: What’s the deal with the “stone giants” that are mentioned in The Hobbit? Are they chronicled anywhere in the history of Middle Earth? Are they allied with good or evil? Did they have any part in the War of the Ring?

–Quinton Carr

A: To answer you in order: No, neither, and no. The singular mention of them anywhere seems to be only in The Hobbit, during that thunderstorm as the travelers attempted to cross the high pass through the Misty Mountains. They were given neither names nor station in the vast Tolkien legendarium, though most beasts and creatures were. Then again, not every single denizen of Middle-earth is revealed plainly. There was the slimy, tentacled Watcher in the Lake that assaulted Frodo and the Fellowship as they stood just outside Moria’s East Gate. Consider it one of those occurrences where the mystery of the thing is an important storytelling device. Gandalf gives no details, no history, to the frightened and inquisitive Hobbits, and that leaves the reader’s mind to wander. What on earth could it be? Who set it there to guard the Gate? And why did it attack the Ringbearer first? By keeping some of these monsters/creatures more obscure, Tolkien makes them more fantastical, and thus they carry more of a wallop to the imagination.

Also, it has been suggested throughout the years that Professor Tolkien wrote The Hobbit directly for his children. My guess is that the inclusion of these Stone Giants could have been to add fairy-tale flavor to the proceedings, as you will find throughout The Father Christmas Letters.

–Quickbeam

back to top

Q: You mentioned Glorfindel, what race was he, how awesome was he and what was he to do to help Elrond?

–Tim

A: Well, I think this question (or questions) is best answered with the words of the Professor:

“‘This is Glorfindel, who dwells in the house of Elrond,’ said Strider.

‘Hail, and well met at last!’ said the Elf-lord to Frodo. ‘I was sent from Rivendell to look for you. We feared that you were in danger upon the road.’” [Excerpted from Fellowship.]

So far so good. His race is Elven, and he dwells in the house of Elrond. Moving on:

“‘There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. … It was my lot to take the Road … three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward.’ …

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; …

‘I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?’

‘Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the First-born. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.’” [Ibid.]

As for how “awesome” he was, there you have it. He is a mighty Elf-lord with power to intimidate even Black Riders. Gandalf also says of him:

“Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed…”[Ibid.]

What was he to do to help Elrond? It seems clear that he obeyed Elrond’s orders, since it was Elrond who ordered riders into the wilderness to search for Frodo. It seems likely that whatever Elrond needed him to do, he would undertake.

–Anwyn

back to top

Q: Who is Tom Bombadil anyway? Is he a Valar, Maia, or something else entirely? Does anyone even really know?

–Namuras

Also:

We have had a few major discussions in Barliman’s about this… Who was eldest–Fangorn or Tom Bombadil? Fangorn is said to be “eldest” in one spot, and Bombadil is known as “oldest” and “fatherless”. The folks at Barliman’s would love your insight on this matter!

–Jincey

A: Tom Bombadil is another really tough person to place and define in the whole scheme of Tolkien’s legendarium. This topic also has been debated for many years. About the best answer one can give, and it is still only a speculation, is that Tom Bombadil was some lesser form of Maia. After all, Tom refers to having been around Arda from very early on– “He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless–before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” And the reference to the Dark Lord must to refer to Morgoth, rather than Sauron. Treebeard’s title as “Eldest” must be some sort of honorific, for he and the Ents as a race seem likely to be slightly younger than Tom Bombadil.

–Turgon

back to top

Q: Who was Aragorn I destroyed by?

–JacenS010

A: Aragorn I was a mighty chieftain of the Dúnedain and a direct descendant of Isildur. He was the Great-great-great-great-great-great- great-great-great-grandfather of Aragorn II (a.k.a. Strider, and later crowned King Elessar in The Return of the King). According to Tolkien’s record, Aragorn I was killed not by a whom but by a what:

“Aragorn I, it is said, was slain by wolves, which ever after remained a peril in Eriador, and are not yet ended.”

Please see his notes in Appendix A; “Annals of the Kings and Rulers” at the very end of the trilogy.

–Quickbeam

back to top

Q: Maybe I misread the Fellowship, but in the scene at the Barrow-Down was Frodo actually wearing the princely white outfit like Merry and Pippin? When he was captured, he immediately looked in his pocket for the Ring. Now why would he search in his pockets for the Ring if he was wearing a different outfit? Also, Frodo said to the other Hobbits that their clothes were probably lost forever. So if Frodo was wearing something else, and the missing clothes were gone for good, wouldn’t the ring be in his old Shire pants and not in his new white outfit? Was Frodo in his normal outfit while the others were dressed up?

–CASH219767

A: I won’t try to quote directly from Fellowship on this, as the passages involved are rather lengthy, so I’ll just paraphrase. The short answer is yes, you did misread just a bit. Here’s the sequence of events:

1. Frodo becomes separated from Sam, Merry, and Pippin in the darkness and fog at the end of the day. He hears cries, his friends calling out for him in distress and alarm, but he cannot find his companions in the dark. So Merry, Sam, and Pippin were captured first.
2. Frodo hears a deep voice coming out of the ground, feels a freezing touch, and falls unconscious.
3. Frodo wakes up in the barrow. He is lying on his back and his hands are on his chest, but this seems to be the only thing the Wight has done with him. There is no mention of his clothes being different.
4. Frodo looks around and sees Sam, Merry, and Pippin all laid together, dressed in white with gold jewelry, with weapons laid at their sides, and across their three necks, “one long naked sword.” [Shiver!]
5. It’s obvious at this point that the other three were captured together in a bunch and dressed up like this, and laid there with spells on them. It becomes apparent later that the spells laid on them to keep them unconscious also gave them dreams in which they were forced to re-enact some of the battles that took place in those lands during the rule of Angmar. You remember that Merry speaks of the attack of the men of Carn Dûm, etc., once they wake up. Frodo was captured later, and laid down with lesser spells upon him and his clothes were not touched. The conclusion that he had fewer or even *no* spells laid upon him is evidenced by the fact that he woke up before the other three, had not been touched except to be brought into the Barrow and laid down, and did not have these dreams about battles.
6. He at first thought of putting on the Ring and trying to escape the Barrow, but decided he could not leave his friends. He hacked off the hand of the Barrow Wight, pitch black instantly fell, and he called for Tom Bombadil, who almost immediately appeared, bringing the walls and ceiling of the Barrow crumbling in, dissipating the Wight, and releasing Merry, Sam, and Pippin from the spell. Merry, Pippin and Sam wake up, look in amazement at the clothes and gold they are wearing, and wonder where their clothes are. Tom tells them that clothes are a small loss for people who escape drowning. JRRT goes on to tell us that Sam, Pippin, and Merry were soon too warm, for they had to put on in place of their clothes some of the heavier garments they’d brought with them to prepare for the winter. It says nothing about Frodo needing to change his clothes.

So there you have it, I hope that helps. The only other question that this brings up for me is: Why didn’t the Barrow-Wight take the Ring?

My only guess is that he was too weak a spirit to use it–he was bound in his Barrow and had no influence outside of it. This is clear from the fact that Tom is easily able to dissipate him as soon as the Barrow is demolished. I think he was too bound to the Barrow to be able to make any use of the Ring, but that’s just speculation for fun on my part.

–Anwyn

back to top

Q: In The Two Towers, Aragorn states that Sauron does not allow his name to be spelt or spoken. So why in The Return of the King does Sauron’s Lieutenant clearly state “I am the Mouth of Sauron?”

–Namuras

Also: Aragorn states (Two Towers, p. 18 hardback) that Sauron never uses the name “Sauron”, nor does he “permit it to be spelt or spoken”. Reconcile this text with the text of Return of the King, p. 164 hardback, where the Lieutenant of Barad-Dûr clearly states, “I am the Mouth of Sauron.”

–Chris Nicholson

A: The passage on p. 18 of The Two Towers (hardcover), after Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas have seen some goblin-soldiers with S-runes on their shields, reads as follows:

‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’

‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.’

‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn.

By implication, it appears that Aragorn is referring to the name ‘Sauron’ as his ‘right name’, but that might not necessarily be the case (Who in fact knows what Sauron’s true name was?). But it may be that Aragorn misstated the case, or misunderstood it slightly. Certainly the lowest of the hierarchy of Mordor were not allowed to speak Sauron’s name, but perhaps those higher-ups in fact were. Or it could be, too, that the “Mouth of Sauron” was speaking his master’s name in a way which the gathered hosts would recognize, or he might have used the name even as a show of pride in his own position as the “Mouth of Sauron.”

–Turgon

back to top

Q: This is in response to your answer concerning the names of the Nazgûl. At the siege of Gondor, after the death of the Witch King, Gothmog leads the army of Sauron. He is described as “the lieutenant of Morgul.” I had always assumed he was a Nazgûl. My question, therefore, is: Of what race was Gothmog if he was not a Nazgûl?

–Balin

A: Sharp eyes and quick wits! My first answer was going to be very short: He was a Balrog. There is ample evidence for this, as it is stated in Lord of the Rings encyclopedias and in excerpts from The Silmarillion that he is a Balrog. But, like any good researcher, I checked another source, and in the index to Sil, it states the following: “Gothmog: Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, slayer of Feanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion.” Quite a résumé for one very long-lived Balrog, wouldn’t you say? But, reading on in the same source: “(The same name was borne in the Third Age by the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul; The Return of the King V 6.)” Oops! So while my answer was correct, that the *original* Gothmog was a Balrog, the question now becomes: is the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, who would not seem to be the same spirit, since it makes a point of saying the name was ALSO borne, etc., a Balrog or a Nazgûl? I have to say I’m with you on this one, Balin, that all my reading leads me to believe that Minas Morgul was the Nazzie headquarters, so to speak, and that the Lieutenant would naturally be the second head-honcho Black Rider. So the conclusion is that the name Gothmog applied first to the leader of the Balrogs in the time of the power of Angband, and later to the second-in-command of the Nazgûl, during the War of the Ring.

–Anwyn

Update!

A few eagle-eyed readers have noted a discrepancy between Anwyn’s comment about Gothmog, and my (Turgon’s) comment in an answer from 9/5/99. Technically, Gothmog is described as the “Lieutenant of Morgul,” and this doesn’t tell us whether Gothmog is a Nazgûl, an Orc, or even a Man. Anwyn has interpreted that Gothmog is a Nazgûl. She may be correct, but it is not certain. In any case, a Captain can have more than one Lieutenant, so if Gothmog is a Nazgûl, and Khamul is the second to the Chief, Gothmog could have been the name of another Nazgûl.

- Turgon

Update!

Update! In a question from LONG LONG AGO, in September 1999, I got myself in trouble with the wording of my answer to a question about Gothmog. Because he was called “the Lieutenant of Morgul,” I referred to him as “second in command of the Nazgûl,” and not only got into hot water with lots of readers but into discrepancy with another answer given by Turgon. I wish to set the record straight–I have no clue what his place was within the Nine. I simply mean to say that I believe–and I could be wrong, of course–that Gothmog during the War of the Ring was the Nazgûl who was in charge at the tower of Minas Morgul. Thus he was the “Lieutenant” of that tower–he held it at the pleasure of the boss Nazgûl. I do not mean to imply I believe he is above Khamul in the ranks of the Nine or whatever. Thanks for all those who wrote in, anxious to be sure Khamul got his rightful place! J

- Anwyn

back to top

Q: I was just wondering did they ever explain the origin of hobbits in Middle-earth?

–ThelookATP

A: The records do not seem to say much on this point, other than that the hobbits were more nearly akin to Men than any of the other races of Middle-earth. Though obviously their origins were earlier, they seem to have lived quite unobtrusively in the Vales of the Anduin until early in the Third Age.

–Turgon

Q: Greetings masters of lore. My question deals with the Nazgul. I know of Khamul, but I have not found the names of the other Nazgul. If they had names, what were they as well as who were they prior to their transformation? Furthermore, is there any story about their creation and why Sauron decided to choose them specifically?

-Reginold

A: Khamul seems to be the only named Ringwraith. What we know of him is given in the section “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales (1980). He was second to the Chief, and his name is given as Khamul the Shadow of the East. Some more about the Nazgul, or the Ulairi, can be found in some of the volumes of the History of Middle-earth, particularly in the section “The Story of Frodo and Sam in Mordor” in Sauron Defeated (1992), and in the work on the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings as printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996). But, unfortunately, the histories of the men who became the Nazgul seems nowhere to be specifically illuminated.

-Turgon

Update!

Okay, we’ve had a number of people writing in and saying that all of the Nazgul are named in one of the Middle-earth games. Yup, we know about that. But the truth is that those names were made up by the people who created the game, not by Tolkien, so we don’t view them as authoritative. They’re simply not in Tolkien anywhere!

- Turgon

Update!

A few eagle-eyed readers have noted a discrepancy between my comment above and Anwyn’s comment an answer from 9/12/99. Technically, Gothmog is described as the “Lieutenant of Morgul,” and this doesn’t tell us whether Gothmog is a Nazgûl, an Orc, or even a Man. Anwyn has interpreted that Gothmog is a Nazgûl. She may be correct, but it is not certain. In any case, a Captain can have more than one Lieutenant, so if Gothmog is a Nazgûl, and Khamul is the second to the Chief, Gothmog could have been the name of another Nazgûl.

- Turgon

back to top

Q: In The Hobbit, at the start of the quest, the dwarves believed that Gandalf was going along with them to Mount Doom [sic], 13 dwarves + 1 Gandalf = 14 in the Party; why were they worried about another member….. and if so surely they could’ve found another greedy dwarf?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: Actually, in The Hobbit the ultimate destination was not Mount Doom, but rather the Lonely Mountain, otherwise referred to as Erebor, once the seat of Thrór’s Kingdom in the North. The clearest answer regarding Bilbo’s inclusion with Thorin Oakenshield’s party is found in the pages of Unfinished Tales (1980). Look in Part Three: The Third Age, Section III: “The Quest of Erebor.” Here we learn of a conversation where Gandalf explains to Gimli, Frodo, Pippin & Merry how he had a chance meeting with Thorin many years earlier and learned of the dwarf’s burning desire for revenge. Originally, Gandalf was not impressed with Thorin’s poorly strategized plans of making armies and war against Smaug. He meant to convince him that stealth and secrecy was his best course of action. Gandalf also had other plans of getting rid of the dragon so that Sauron would not use him as an extension of his power. The wizard himself never intended to go along with Thorin’s Quest, but he knew of a certain Hobbit that he thought would be a valuable asset.

“Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world.”

The dwarves were very much against adding Bilbo to the party, especially after meeting him in person, and it took a LOT of convincing on Gandalf’s part to get Thorin to yield to his counsel.

“‘Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!’ I said. ‘If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.’”

In the end, a deal was struck where Thorin reluctantly took heed of Gandalf’s urging; allowing Bilbo to accompany them in exchange for Gandalf’s temporary inclusion in the party.

“‘Very well,’ Thorin said at last after a silence. ‘He shall set out with my company, if he dares (which I doubt). But if you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too and look after your darling.’

“‘Good!’ I answered. ‘I will come, and stay with you as long as I can: at least until you have discovered his worth.’”

And so the inspired number of 14 was created at the last possible second. The poor hobbit was “volunteered” because of Gandalf’s unswerving conviction that Bilbo was more important than anyone foresaw, and also because of his exceptional debating skills with Dwarves. Please see Unfinished Tales (1980) for the full account.

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

back to top

Q: Why did Sauron never come forth himself to do war? Couldn’t he have flattened all of Minas Tirith with one outstretched hand?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: Perhaps. But perhaps not. Remember that without the Ring, Sauron was not at his full power. When he created the Ring, Tolkien tells us that he allowed “a great part of his own former power [to] pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.” This allotment of power to the Ring seems to have been permanent. This is evidenced by the fact that if he *could* have won the War without the Ring, he would have done so. *With* the Ring, he would have been terrifyingly unstoppable. Without it, he had perhaps half, perhaps as much as two-thirds the power he possessed in the end of the Second Age, when it took *all of the combined power of Elves and Men* to defeat him. I.E. the Last Alliance of Gil-Galad and Elendil, when both races brought out and sacrificed their best to defeat him. When at last he was defeated and the Ring stripped from him, he became crippled as regards the amount of his power. Tolkien seems to imply that he was able to nurse himself back to health somewhat when he states “always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes shape and grows again.” But it is clear that he could never return to full power without the Ring. So the conclusion is that if he could be attacked and defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, Elendil’s sons and the Hosts of Gil-Galad *with* the Ring, then perhaps the combined might of Gandalf, Aragorn, the Sons of Elrond, Theoden, Eomer & Eowyn, Denethor’s & Theoden’s armies, and Faramir… could have defeated him *without* it. I think it’s safe to say that if he could have captured Frodo and regained the Ring, we probably would have seen him make some attacks in a more personal way, but it’s as Denethor said: “He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?”

-Anwyn

back to top

Q: The Istari are a council of wizards. They number 7 total but we only know about 3 of them, Saruman the White/Many colors, Gandalf the Grey/White, and Radagast the Brown. Each had their own particular abilities and interests. Who are the other 4 and what are their interests/abilities?

-Karl J. Jurek

A: This question has been asked by many visitors to the TheOneRing.Net. As to the Istari, only three seem to play any role in events related to The Lord of the Rings, Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, and Radagast the Brown. Saruman’s outburst at Orthanc, when he spoke of ‘the rods of the Five Wizards,’ seems to have been letting out some private information. Nowhere in The Lord of the Rings do we learn anything more about the two other wizards, though Tolkien seems to have considered the question on a few occasions, and come up with a few different theories. Some of Tolkien’s notes on the Istari appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). In one of these passages, apparently written around 1954, Tolkien named the other two as Ithryn Luin, ‘the Blue Wizards,’ who passed into the East and never returned. Some other notes indicate that they were named Alatar and Pallando. To complicate matters, some more notes are published in The Peoples of Middle-earth(1996), in a small section “The Five Wizards” in the section titled “Last Writings.” There Tolkien wrote:

“No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in the lands west of Mordor.” In a still further note, Tolkien wrote: “The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion…”

These various notes are very interesting, and certainly worth looking up. Plus they give as best an answer as we’ll ever know to questions about the Istari.

-Turgon

back to top

Q: If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: First of all, your question lies more in the realm of subjective interpretation than it does in hard black & white facts. But my best interpretation is this: If you look closely at the text, Samwise does not actually refer to Bill Ferny as ‘Bill’… it seems he was using the Hobbit-ish practice of referring to an individual by the informal means of last-name-only, ‘Ferny.’ Perhaps because of his contempt for Bill Ferny we never hear Samwise give the courtesy of addressing him by first name. Several chapters later, before the Fellowship makes their departure from Rivendell, Samwise names the pony. Certainly not out of memory of Bill Ferny, but maybe because he was just fond of the name ‘Bill.’

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

back to top

Q: Why do the Black Riders, though painted as so utterly terrifying, seem to have so little power for actual harm?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: My answer to this is in two parts: the answer that is indicated by the content, i.e., what is it about the characters that makes them this way, and secondly the fact that it constitutes a literary device that Tolkien used.

Part One: Yes, the Black Riders are terrifying. But what is the main strength of their image? Just that: an image. The tall, black shadow. (Please, don’t anybody jump on the George Lucas/Jar Jar Binks racism bandwagon. I am using “black” here not as a color of a person/creature, but as Darkness, or a Shadow. Evil images, not skin color.) The tall black shadow, towering over smaller creatures, intimidating. Tolkien tells us their weakness flat out. They do not see well, hardly at all, in daylight. Thus they are at the mercy of the black horses for direction and guidance much of the time. They can smell. Well and good, but it takes time to sniff out prey, and as we’ve seen, rescue or help can come in the time it takes to sniff somebody out. The five Black Riders, advancing over the lip of the dell… horrifying image. But what was the main fear? The knife. They had to rely on steel weapons just like the “good guys,” or at least until Frodo succumbed to the temptation of the Ring and became one of them, visible in their world, when they would then be able (presumably) to wrest the Ring from him by force. Again, in Return of the King, we see the Witch-King relying on a weapon, his mace, to kill Eowyn. So when it comes to actual physical combat, they are hampered by their limited daylight vision, and just as reliant upon weapons as any mortal. We’re not talking about Dungeons and Dragons dark mages or dark clerics here, who can cast spells with a single word. No. These are formerly mortal beings who have crossed into the spiritual realm, but are still able to wield a presence in the physical. Personally I think they’re fortunate to be able to wield the influence that they do! Now if Frodo were to put on the Ring, it would be another matter. They got him with the knife when he put it on at Weathertop, and they would have done more had not the others with their flaming brands driven them away. At that point they let them alone not because they couldn’t do more, but because they believed there was no need: the wound would overcome Frodo and all they had to do was follow, and he would fall into their hands. So spiritually, they are a horror to any rational being. Physically, they are hampered, and can be foiled with fire, rushing water, and even by broad daylight.

Part Two: I believe Tolkien deliberately used them this way to create a literary device by which Frodo would have no choice but to continue the journey. Everybody has to have some strong motive for leaving their home and pursuing a Quest. Desire to serve the Good is one motive, but Fear is usually stronger. With these creatures driving behind, Frodo and the gang had no choice but to continue to Rivendell or risk capture and wraith-making at the hands of the Black Riders and the Dark Lord. Since my other answer was so long, I’ll keep to that. I think it’s clear enough.

-Anwyn

back to top

Q: Why do the Eagles never show up until the very last minute?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: I must confess I stole this question from a friend of mine who was frustrated with The Lord of the Rings because he felt Tolkien used too much of what is known as “deus ex machina.” Basically what this means is that just as soon as we see the hero getting into a situation that looks totally inextricable, something we never knew could be part of the equation swoops in to rescue them! As I understand it, it’s based on an old technique of Greek Theater–when the hero got into trouble, they raised him out of the action in a chair, signifying that the Gods had stepped in to rescue him. Thus, “deus ex machina” or “machine of the gods.” So the Eagles, in three instances, act very much like our chair of the gods. First in the Hobbit, rescuing the party from Wargs and goblins and coming in at the last minute in the Battle of Five Armies, then in The Lord of the Rings, helping to win the battle before the Black Gate, and most importantly, pulling Sam and Frodo out of the lava once their Quest was complete. Not to mention Gwaihir’s little “side trips,” rescuing Gandalf from the pinnacle of Orthanc and bearing him from the top of Silvertine.

Now why is this, that if they were such a force to be reckoned with, that they did not come south and join the armies to begin with? Why would they only offer help when it was dire? Doesn’t it say something about their character that they would hold back until things were desperate?

My answer is, I readily admit, not verifiable in print. I can only offer a hypothesis that fits the facts and let you take it as you will. My opinion is this: they are animals. Talking animals, yes, but animals nonetheless. As such they are not one of the Free Peoples. Now, Tolkien’s use of animals falls into two categories: much beloved servants, such as the horses of the Rohirrim, Shadowfax and Sam’s faithful Bill. Or, they fall into the villainous category, usually in the form of giant spiders (Mirkwood and Shelob) but also the horrible carrion beasts which carried the flying Riders. (Servitude again, but for the other side.) I think the Eagles fall into this category also, kind of an antithesis to the horrible carrion creatures of the Riders. We do not know about the intelligence of these creatures. They may have been speechless animals, but they retained enough intelligence to know a foe (recall the beast “screaming” at Eowyn after she defied the Witch-King). The Eagles retain that much intelligence and much more, so that they can put forth their strength for the use of the Good when they are most needed, but perhaps know they would not fit into the grand scheme of the war as a regular force. I guess they would fall into the category of Special Forces, used as a last resort! But that is my answer, that as animals they are not one of the free peoples and their primary role is service to the Good, *when* it becomes necessary. Even Shadowfax was not in use all the time, and when Gandalf wasn’t riding him, he did not go out to war as a soldier.

-Anwyn

Update!

Well, folks, some readers thought that I was not specific enough with my Eagles answers. There were several people who wrote in to tell me the following information, so I’m only posting a few versions. Thanks to all who wrote to clarify for me!

–Anwyn

The answer to the question of the Eagles lies in The Silmarillion. It is revealed there, that the Eagles and the Ents were both, in a sense, agents of the Valar (of one particular one, in fact, the one associated with nature-was it Yavanna? I’m at work and can’t look it up). They were created after she saw what had been done in the creation of the dwarves. So the Eagles only interfere when the Valar allow, so the deus ex machina is an appropriate analogy indeed. (There are also one or two instances where they interfere in The Silmarillion – one I recall was the rescue of Fingon-I think-from Thangorodrim.)

–Tim Frankovich

As an aside on the subject of the Eagles, and why they are usually late to the fray… Manwe‘ was the Lord and Master of the winds and the creatures of the winds, and so the appearance of the Eagles at the last minute is seen as a form of Divine intervention (the form being the Valar overriding their usual modus operandi and stepping in to influence events in Middle-earth).

–Tony Hillerson

back to top

Q: Did Tolkien ever draw a detailed map of Numenor? If so does anyone out there know where its possible to find one?

-Aaron

A: Tolkien only ever drew one sketch-map of Numenor, and Christopher Tolkien redrew it to appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). It’s facing page one of the Introduction in the Houghton Mifflin hardcover edition.

-Turgon

Update!

Also: For an in-depth look at Numenor and many other fantastic maps of Middle-earth, grab yourself a copy of The Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. This book has been around for many years, but with Christopher Tolkien’s publication of The History of Middle-earth volumes, many changes were made and a new edition appeared. You’ve never seen anything so comprehensive in your life! Zillions of details from all Four Ages and across all the volumes of Tolkien’s masterworks are represented. Cartography, languages, battles, journeys, and amazing cross-sections of underground cities. I highly recommend it as a companion piece to anything you read by Tolkien, and you’ll never be lost in the woods again! The paperback edition is readily available on Amazon.com.

The main character is really Samwise Gamgee, though you may not know it. I’m telling you now, it’s all about Sam.

You can safely argue Frodo Baggins should be the centerpoint of the tale. In The Hobbit Bilbo had the limelight for an entire book, and no one came close to grandstanding him (except maybe Smaug). Seems like Tolkien intended to chronicle the history of the Baggins family; first through Bilbo’s adventures–then with Frodo inheriting more adventures than he bargained for.

The story takes Frodo’s point of view often enough. Throughout the trilogy we share his experiences though personal sensations, his internal thoughts, and even his dreams. Tolkien lets us inside his suffering. And through that suffering we understand the dynamic of true sacrifice. He’s the Ringbearer, after all.

But a character-driven story like LOTR is not strictly about sacrifice (or heroism, or the impermanence of beauty, or all those themes that are intrinsic). I must admit the novel is woven of many threads but the groundwork of the tale, the telling of it, spins on a single proviso: Who is transformed the most between the opening and the closing page, taking the reader through his transformation?

Aragorn is the most heroic character. But it’s not his story.

Gandalf is greatest manipulator of events. But it’s not his story.

Sauron is the ever-present antagonist. But it’s not his story.

Let me give you the clearest example from another fantasy, familiar to all but the most sheltered–Star Wars. You think the original Star Wars films are about some farmboy named Luke Skywalker? You think he’s the main character? BUZZZ! I’m so sorry… thanks for playing! If you had said Darth Vader, you’d be walking home with the grand prize.

The guy in the black helmet is pulling all the strings. Vader begins the first scene of the first episode by walking through that laser-blasted door looking for Leia. He is the first character the audience has a relationship with. More importantly, his choices put the plot in motion for all three films. Every facet of the story we experience is an after-effect of what Darth Vader is doing. When Return of the Jedi comes to its conclusion, it is only after Vader’s most difficult redemption and after we see his glowing form with his predecessors, that we know the story is over. He’s redeemed. Roll credits. The end.

When you write a 1,200-page novel, you have the luxury of branching off into other subplots and you can take time to work with various characters. But you still need one common thread that thematically brings your story full circle. The transformation of Sam is Tolkien’s central storytelling device, though not the most obvious one. There are many clues that reveal Sam, not Frodo, as the main element.

Sam goes an extreme route: from simple gardener to a participant in legend. He starts things off in The Fellowship of the Ring as the first new character we learn about, through a description offered by his father, the Gaffer:

Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo’s tales… Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you.

So you see, our dear Sam is the contact point that we immediately relate to. Just like him, we are daydreaming of fairies, elves, and elephants. That is why Tolkien introduces Sam at once. All the magnificent events of the War of the Ring, the journey, battles, treachery and triumph, are diluted down to this profound effect: Sam is transformed beyond what he recognizes in himself. In the end he becomes the subject of all his dreams. Even he acknowledges that his feats might someday be the subject of future stories and songs.

Sam’s conversation with Frodo in the pass of Cirith Ungol says it all:

‘But that’s not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually–their paths were laid that way, as you put it… I wonder what sort of a tale we’ve fallen into?’

‘I wonder,’ said Frodo. ‘But I don’t know. And that’s the way of a real tale… The people in it don’t know…’

And when Sam realizes the grand stories of the First Age, of Beren and the Silmarils, are indeed connected to the present unfolding events he says:

‘Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on. Don’t the great tales never end?’

‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them come, and go when their part’s ended.’

To this Sam replies, ‘…Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales.’ And with that strangely self-referential remark, the Professor quietly moves Sam into his greatest moments of peril and deliverance.

As final proof, I offer a closer look at the novel’s conclusion. The epic story does not end with the destruction of the Ring, not even with Frodo’s departure from the Grey Havens. The final moment we cling to as the story closes its doors, is of Sam coming back to his family, sitting at his table and declaring that his role in the formation of a myth is done. Three simple words, “Well, I’m back,” are his final admission that there is no more story for him to contribute to.

Sam’s perspective is that he can finally return to domestic life without any further adventures. An end has come to chronicling his tale. He is now back with his family, back to his private life; and the intrusive eyes of future generations can leave him in peace.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam
———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on March 1st 2001 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!

What a fun movie! Dominic Monaghan (Meriadoc Brandybuck) came on board to be our wonderful narrator! Actually this film is a time capsule of many decades of pop culture history — giving us the full story on how the world has embraced Tolkien’s masterpiece THE LORD OF THE RINGS over 50 years and more!

Winner of the Outstanding Achievement Award at the Newport Beach Film Festival, RINGERS was produced in association with TheOneRing.net — this remarkable little film was forged BY fans and FOR fans, just like our website, with the production/writing talent of Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway (who hosts TORn TUESDAY every week), Jeff Marchelletta, and supercool director Carlene Cordova. It was executive produced by X-Men/Transformers guru Tom DeSanto.

With a wonderful rock-driven score and detailing all the outpouring of love bestowed on Tolkien over many generations, this film is a must-have for your digital collection! Get it on iTunes now for only $9.99!

From the original Sony Press Release:

“RINGERS is comprehensive, entertaining and informative pop culture history.”
– The Toronto Star

“…Will always be a salient part of ‘LORD OF THE RINGS’ history…
See it, absorb it, love it.” – FilmThreat

Winner of “Outstanding Achievement” Award at the
Newport Beach Film Festival

RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS

FASCINATING DOCUMENTARY CAPTURES THE HISTORY, INFLUENCE AND PHENOMENON THAT IS LORD OF THE RINGS

CULVER CITY, Calif. (September 12, 2005) – Sony invites you to return to the Shire with the release of the feature-length documentary RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS, direct to DVD.  In association with the popular fan-site TheOneRing.net, Carlene Cordova produced, directed and wrote this award-winning film with executive producer Tom DeSanto(X-Men, X2: X-Men United and Transformers), which charts the incredible influence and ripple-effect that Lord of the Rings has had on worldwide pop culture over the past five decades.  Whether you are a fan or first timer, critics agree, RINGERS, stands as the most comprehensive film documenting the ongoing impact of J.R.R. Tolkien’s literary achievement.

Dominic Monaghan (star of ABC’s Lost and the Academy Award^® winning Lord of the Rings trilogy) narrates the documentary as it looks behind the curtain between Lord of the Rings and how it inspired so many artists of different mediums.  The film moves beyond “cult classic” and through different generations unearthing the way legendary rock musicians, filmmakers, professors, actors and authors all unite under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  Interviewees included in the film are Lord of the Rings trilogy filmmaker Peter Jackson as well as Elijah Wood, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Sean Astin and David Carradine.  Infused with a dynamic rock-driven score, irreverent cut-out animation (á la Terry Gilliam), and a centerpiece audience sing-a-long, RINGERS is a genre-busting documentary that shows how a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions.

RINGERS continues the momentum of the motion picture trilogy Lord of the Rings, a winner of 17 Academy Awards including Best Picture and Best Director for Peter Jackson, who made history as the first person to direct three major feature films simultaneously. 

From the official synopsis:

Ringers: Lord of the Fans is a feature-length documentary that reveals the ongoing cultural phenomenon created by The Lord of the Rings.  Very funny and often moving, Ringers shows the hidden power behind Tolkien’s books — and how after 50 years a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions, across cultures and across time.

Shot with groundbreaking new digital technology in 24P, Ringers explores the real foundations of Middle-earth; a community of true fans who share a common bond.  Moving beyond “cult classic” and over several different generations, the film unearths academics, musicians, authors, filmmakers, and a plethora of pop junkies — the people gathered under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  From the hippie counter-culture to the electronic age; from the Bakshi animated film to Jackson’s epic trilogy; this documentary brings together extensive footage from across the globe.  With units in Los Angeles, San Diego, Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Bonn, Germany, Wellington, New Zealand, and Oxford, England, our cameras capture the most fascinating “Ringers” and Lord of the Rings events.

What began as the private amusement of a tweedy Oxford professor has now become a new mythology for the 21^st century. Ringers: Lord of the Fans shows how an adventure story published in 1954 has had dynamic ripple-effects through Western pop-culture.  Ringers carefully pulls away the veil between Tolkien’s book and the creations of art, music, and community that have been inspired by it.

Check out the official trailer here:

Art by J.R.R. Tolkien for “The Hobbit”

So it is a real pleasure to help publicize events like the 3rd Conference on Middle-earth and its Part 2 scheduled for 2014 in Westford, MA. The word is getting out now to declare that the conference is currently accepting papers. Below is the full press release with links, some of which show how many decades back the event reaches:

The 3rd Conference On Middle-earth, Part 2, to be held March 28 – 30, 2014
in Westford, MA, USA, is currently soliciting papers, presentations, paper proposals, and panel proposals from persons with scholarly interest in any aspect of the worlds of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Suggested topics are: J.R.R. Tolkien’s works, influences on Tolkien, other works based on Tolkien’s writing, criticism, teaching Tolkien in the classroom, the books’ impact on oneself and/or the world, the films and the film industry, the music, the art, the fannish side of this universe and its impact, and anything you can imagine on topic. For examples of previous papers and panels, see the programming for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd conferences: 1st Conference, 2nd Conference, and 3rd Conference.

A few areas of interest are:
• The languages of Middle Earth: how Old English (including Anglo-Saxon riddles), the Eddas, etc. influenced TLOTR.
• Elements of northern European myths that appear in TLOTR.
• The impact of World War I on Tolkien and his writing.
• The impact of The Hobbit and TLOTR on 1960s and 1970s popular music.
• Artistic visions of Middle-earth.
• The astronomy of Middle-earth. [For example, when is Durin's Day?]
• The geography of Middle-earth.
• The geology of Middle-earth.
• The flora and fauna of Middle-earth.
• The clothing of Middle-earth both from the books and the films.
• The food of Middle-earth.
• The poetry and songs of Middle-earth.

Only members of the 3rd Conference On Middle Earth, Part 2, will be able to present and participate. Once papers and proposals have been accepted, the presenter/panelist will need to join the conference (the sooner the better, before rates go up), if they are not already members. If an author cannot be present, then arrangements can be made for a third party to read the paper. However, as indicated, the authors must be members of The 3rd Conference On Middle-earth, Part 2.

Paper Proposal: Please email a 250-word abstract including the presentation title, your name, e-mail address, your mailing address and phone number, or alternately a second e-mail address. The maximum reading time for the finished paper is 30 minutes, roughly 2000 words, though it may be less. We will confirm receipt of proposal by e-mail.

Panel Proposal: Please email the panel name and a 250-word abstract. Please include the panel title, the panel chair (who may be one of the presenters), e-mail address, the mailing address and phone number, or alternately a second e-mail address of each presenter. The receipt of proposal will be confirmed by e-mail.

Submit your proposal to: programming@3rdcome.org.

Deadline for Submissions: You may submit a proposal up through Tuesday, 31 December 2013. Participation is limited, so submissions may close early—so it’s best to get a proposal in sooner rather than later.

NOTE: Confirmation of receipt of submissions does not guarantee acceptance for presentation.

Check out http://www.3rdcome.org for more information on the conference.

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

Every week on the Main Discussion Board, poster Roheryn shares a game she creates from Tolkien’s works.  We’ve been having fun playing SAST (Short Attention Span Theatre) from The Hobbit.  Come join the fun here.

In the Reading Room, posters are still discussing The Silmarillion.  They’re well into Chapter 12, “Of Men”. If you’ve ever wanted to delve into The Sil, but you weren’t sure you wanted to tackle the enormity of this deep Middle-earth history, the Reading Room is the perfect way to start.  Join them with Chapter 12 Part 1 and Part 2.

In Lord of the Rings Movie Discussion Board, we never get tired of sharing our favourite quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Stop by and let us know what yours are.

   There was a thunderous round of applause on the Feedback Discussion Board when Admin and long-time poster dernwyn pointed out that there are now banner circle pictures from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey mixed with the LotR pics!  For those who haven’t visited the Boards, you really must go take a peek.  When you read posts or visit the main pages of each Discussion Board, take a look in the upper left-hand corner of your screen.  Up until now, there have been pics from The Lord of the Rings.  Check out The Hobbit pics here.  For those of us who live on the Discussion Boards, this is Awesome!!

   Want Hobbit Movie News? Each week, TORN poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect the Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

   We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

As Tolkien fans, it stands to reason that we very much like BIG BOOKS. So what better way to share your love for BIG BOOKS than with an appropriately geeky t-shirt. Proclaim to the world…

‘I like Big Books and can not lie!’

Available in two styles and eight different colors, this is our most diverse t-shirt offering to date. Place your order before next Tuesday to be in the first batch produced and sent out to Big Book fans around the world! As with all of our t-shirt ventures at TheOneRing.net, all profits go directly to expenses of running a large scale community like TheOneRing.net. Our 100% volunteer staff thanks you for your support! [Order Today] [Emporium of Goods]

May 17, 2013
July 19, 2013
September 13, 2013
November 15, 2013
January 17, 2014
March 7, 2014
May 16, 2014
July 11, 2014
September 12, 2014
November 21, 2014

The presentations will be held in the Prucha Archives Reading Room (3rd floor, Raynor Library) and will run approximately 45 minutes. For more information on the archive and presentation, you can visit the J.R.R. Tolkien Collection’s website.

You know those finely crafted little moments you always remember from a movie or play? Even if you don’t see the performers again the brightest or funniest quips will linger on. The best movie dialogue has a way of becoming oft-heard bon mots relished among water cooler conversation.

The same goes for literature but often in broader measure. The most impressive wordplay remains within your psyche long after you put the book down. When the rubber meets the road, it’s how a great writer is elevated above the ordinary herds.

Indeed one of the first things you learn about J.R.R. Tolkien is that his work is ripe with just such powerful language. His wonderful ability to play with tone, color, and emotion made it easy for me to select the following from The Lord of the Rings. These are my favorite one-liners (or two-liners), that stand out as having a striking impact. Consider this collection a literary sampler akin to “Tolkien’s Greatest Hits.”

Lord knows that the Professor himself would frown upon the idea, yet I present them playfully and respectfully. Whenever I read and encounter these moments I am forever impressed with intensity, humor, or remembrance.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Most bittersweet line:

“I have quite finished, Sam,” said Frodo. “The last pages are for you.”

Best exclamation of joy:

“Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!”

Most perfect description of beauty:

Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

Most poetic description of the weather:

The weather was grey and overcast, with wind from the East, but as evening drew into night the sky away westward cleared, and pools of faint light, yellow and pale green, opened under the grey shores of cloud. There the white rind of the new Moon could be seen glimmering in the remote lakes.

Most shocking moment:

But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss.

Most gruesome encounter:

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.

Most colorful analogy:

“Troubles follow you like crows, and ever the oftener the worse.”

Best example of friendly competition:

“Forty-two, Master Legolas!” he cried.

Most powerful moment of rage:

Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.

Best invitation to dinner:

“You shall come home with me! The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter.”

Wittiest rejoinder:

Saruman- ”For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!”
Gandalf- ”I liked white better.”

Spookiest moment:

Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. “It is gone forever,” he said, “and now all is dark and empty.”

Most gothic description of evil:

Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.

Most shrewd political advice:

“He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling.”

Single best piece of advice:

“Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.”

Single funniest line:

“…What’s taters, precious, eh, what’s taters?”

Funniest exchange between two characters:

Éomer- ”…For there are certain rash words concerning the Lady in the Golden Wood that lie still between us. And now I have seen her with my eyes.”
Gimli- “Well, lord, and what say you now?”
Éomer- ”Alas! I will not say that she is the fairest lady that lives.”
Gimli- ”Then I must go for my axe.”

Most beautiful dream sequence:

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.

Most enigmatic historical allusion:

“Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!”

Strongest statement of gender equality:

“In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen.”

Most romantic kiss:

And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.

Most exciting call of alarm:

AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!

Most intimidating description of geography:

Ever and anon the furnaces far below its ashen cone would grow hot and with a great surging and throbbing pour forth rivers of molten rock from chasms in its sides. Some would flow blazing towards Barad-dûr down great channels; some would wind their way into the stony plain, until they cooled and lay like twisted dragon-shapes vomited from the tormented earth.

Most beautiful sunset:

But in front a thin veil of water was hung, so near that Frodo could have put an outstretched arm into it. It faced westward. The level shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled with an unconsuming fire.

Most insidious falsehood:

“Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world.”

Most spectacular moment of destruction:

Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land.

Most moving speech on the battlefield:

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.”

Most Shakespearean dialogue:

“Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,” said Denethor. “Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse lay yet in the dregs?”

Most wonderful hobbit irony:

Then there was Lobelia. …and there was such clapping and cheering when she appeared, leaning on Frodo’s arm but still clutching her umbrella, that she was quite touched, and drove away in tears. She had never in her life been popular before.

Two moments that surely inspired the 60’s hippie counter-culture:

1. “Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!” … The hobbits ran about for a while on the grass, as he told them.

and

2. All that day they walked about in the woods with him, singing, and laughing; for Quickbeam often laughed. … Whenever he saw a rowan-tree he halted a while with his arms stretched out, and sang, and swayed as he sang.

Passage of utmost triumphant rapture:

And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

Line that always, always makes me weep uncontrollably:

There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Many of you certainly have your own take on what qualifies as the “most humorous,” “most shocking,” etc., and that’s fine too. This pursuit is a matter of taste, perhaps, but you cannot deny the foundation: Professor Tolkien showed his passion on every page, with every turn of phrase. Of his labors he wrote in a 1950 letter to Milton Waldman:

… It was begun in 1936, and every part has been written many times. Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered. And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered.

No better insight can be given towards understanding the perfection of his tastes in authorship. Here is the major facet that most assuredly elevates him and his body of work. We, his eager readership, are indeed blessed with his remarkable and thoroughly romantic word craft.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam

———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on August 8th 2000 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!