Since I had so little direct linguistic information about Black Speech to go on other than what could be gleaned from the Ring-inscription (object suffixes -ul, -ulûk; verbal infinitive (perhaps) ending -at; abstract ending -um in burzum “darkness”, containing the same burz element seen in Lugbúrz “Dark Tower”; postposition -ishi “in”) I had to go on à priori notions of what a language such as Black Speech might be like — I had to get inside the mind of Sauron, and try to figure out what somebody like the Dark Lord of Mordor might put into his language.

As a matter of fact, this is something I had thought about some years before. As an undergraduate in college, I had contributed to a set of ongoing stories, where each participant wrote additional chapters and introduced characters and events as he or she pleased. Into one of these stories I introduced the character (played partly for humor, partly tragically) of a misfit Orc who, sometime after the fall of Mordor, had found himself transported through time and space into a new environment. On introducing this Orc, I thought it would add a touch of realism to let him speak in his own language; so I sketched the outline of what I imagined Black Speech might be like, and wrote a couple of paragraphs in it.

I have no idea if any copy of this text survives somewhere in my files. At any rate, I made no direct use of it, except for one small element that I retained in memory, the first person pronoun za — possibly suggested by Avestan azəm.

What I did retain, however, was the overall notion of Black Speech as a complex but consistent language, rich in affixation and inflection, but with a wholly transparent morphology. Indeed, the transparency of the morphology, the lack of any phonetic alterations between morphemes that could obscure the structure, would help explain the prevalence of clashing consonant clusters; morphemes ending in one consonant were jammed up against morphemes beginning in another, with nothing to ease the transition.

Sauron, I imagined, was an enormously practical person, who would have made the Black Speech as “perfect” (according to his notions of perfection) as he could make it, with a rigorous consistency and logic, but without making any allowance for æsthetics. It would not eschew borrowings from other languages of Middle-earth, but it would adapt them to its own style. It would in fact have been, as my friend Helge Fauskanger terms it, Sauron’s Esperanto.

[Read More]

Cool quote that gives some insight into the difficulties of translating texts:

But when Bilbo Baggins played with the meaning of his name in a long discussion with the dragon Smaug, Goldstein was forced to admit defeat. “There’s no way to do it, there’s just no way to translate it,” Goldstein said. “So, I put in a footnote and said, ‘This is a pun and I give up.’ ”

For one of his first translation projects after his retirement, Barry Goldstein, a former computer programmer, found an empty table at his local Starbucks in Boston and settled in to work on the “Treebeard” chapter from J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings trilogy. But Goldstein soon realized that he needed something more sizable to occupy his time: 95,022 words later, he had translated the entire text of The Hobbit, the prequel to the Ring series, into Yiddish.

Only a little more than 130 copies of Goldstein’s translation have sold since it was released in December. But as Goldstein tells it, he always knew Der Hobit wouldn’t be a best-seller, and the sales were still double his original two-figure estimate.

In the heyday of Yiddish literature, the translation of literary classics into the mamaloshen was entirely commonplace. The prewar Yiddish readership is estimated at about 10 million—many of whom spoke Yiddish as their first language and had a rabid appetite for the classics of world literature.

Some of the best-selling Yiddish adventure stories included gems like Robert Louis Stevenson’s Treasure Island, Jack London’s Klondike series, and Mark Twain’s The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. “There was a sense that we had to catch Yiddish up with the world and modernism and that any important literary phenomenon that was taking place in the larger world had to be conveyed to the Yiddish-speaking world,” said Miriam Udel, a professor of Yiddish at Emory University. “The cultural ambitions of Ashkenazic Jewry were on the grandest scale, so they didn’t think of themselves as having a small or minority literature or a cultural complex.”

[Read More]

Yes, we can all agree that’s fairly old.

However, if you’re interested in Norse myth, Shippey’s thoughts on Tolkien’s parallels with other early fantasists such as William Morris, Lord Dunsany and E.R. Eddison, as well as what he thought of meeting Tolkien himself, then you’ll find (like I did) this a worthwhile read.

Chat Session with Pr. Tom Shippey

Pieter Collier: Welcome Mr Shippey

Tom Shippey: Hi everyone, I’m still figuring out how this works but it’s coming…

Pieter Collier: Welcome Mr Shippey to the release party of the new Tolkien book! We will let you figure out everything first before start asking you questions!

Tom Shippey: I think I’m Ok to answer now, would anyone like to fire away.

Pieter Collier: Have you had a chance to read the Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun? What do you think of it?

Tom Shippey: Yes, I’ve read it – got a proof copy. It is about 80 years old and this shows in the language.

Rafael Juan Pascual: how does your academic background relate to the myths told in the legend of Sigurd and Gudrun?

Tom Shippey: a bit sideways – I’ve always been interested in Norse and Eddic poetry, and have published on it, but it hasn’t been a major topic for me. For one thing, I’ve never done time in Iceland, which you need for a proper grasp of the language

Trotter: Did Tolkien spend any time in Iceland?

Tom Shippey: no, I don’t think he did, though he did have Icelandic connections – through William Morris’s daughter, oddly enough.

Stephen Davis: As a Tolkien scholar, as well as having a heavy interest and background in Germanic and Northern European cultures and myths, particularly where they have influenced Tolkien’s life and work, how excited are you about the publication of Tolkien’s Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun in print? Indeed, how long have you awaited such a thing personally, given what you’ve known for so long about its impact on aspects of Tolkien’s legendarium?

Tom Shippey: well, we’ve known about the existence of these poems since the publication of the Letters, in 1981, and I’ve always felt they were the unpublished pieces I most wanted to read. It’s going to take a while to take it all in and see what difference it makes to our general understanding of the legends – and what has long been called the königsproblem, the main problem of Germanic philology.

[Read Full Transcript]

Here are the rules for the competition, and instructions on how you can enter:

1. The haiku must be written in either Quenya or Sindarin.
2. An English translation must be provided.
3. The topic is free. Still, although the topic is free, please do not write about legendary topics (even from Tolkien’s tales). A haiku is about the world around you and the present time.
4. Each participant can submit a maximum of two haiku.
5. With your haiku, please provide your full name and address (even if you write under a pen-name, the organisers must know who you are).
6. The haiku must be written in the body of the mail — no mail attachments.

Once you’ve completed your haiku e-mail it to the people at Omentielva Lempea (not us here at TORn!). The competition address is: haiku@omentielva.com.

How judging works

The haiku received will be distributed on anonymous lists to the participants of the Conference and they will be invited to vote. The organisers of this contest may submit, but will not be allowed to vote.

Announcement of winners

The results will be announced at the conference, and afterwards on this webpage. The 3 best haiku will be rewarded with a small gift, and will be published with the conference proceedings in the fifth volume of Arda Philology.

The House That Bilbo Built: Tolkien’s Literary Legacy
by Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway

Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien have a distinctly creative way of expressing what they like; and perhaps that is the very quality that makes them the greatest fandom to propagate a literary phenomenon. It has been said there’s Life within the words of a great book. The ultimate expression of that can be seen in the inspired individual who builds his Life from the words. Those are the types of fans who carry their love so strongly forward, into bookstores and cineplexes alike, that everyone gets swept up. Their friends and children inevitably receive the books from them when the time comes; each parent, with a knowing smile, handing the key to Middle-earth to their young ones. I sometimes wonder what Professor Tolkien would think of ‘The House That Bilbo Built:’ a wave of cultural influence and entertainment begotten by the high romantic world he invented, along with so many original languages and alphabets, such a long time ago.

Talk about longevity! THE HOBBIT just celebrated its 75th anniversary. First published in 1937, well before the first volume of THE LORD OF THE RINGS came out (1954), the whimsical adventure of the diminutive Bilbo Baggins stands as a giant among 20th century fiction. Certainly few other books sustain the same revolving fandom over decades. I don’t believe in the least that TWILIGHT or THE HUNGER GAMES will have this measure of adoration in 75 years (but POTTER damn well might). Don’t underestimate how beloved and emulated Tolkien’s books are to a surprisingly different quilt of nations, regions, and times. The world’s appetite for Tolkien’s uniquely rich fantasy storytelling caused the actual “Fantasy” section to appear in bookstores; a niche market broadened tremendously, a statement was made to the publishing industry, and there was certainly no going back. Elves, Hobbits, Wizards, Goblins and Dragons were here to stay.

So much of my own creative life has sprung from my love of Tolkien and willingly have I swam the subculture that embraces his work. Ringer fans are counted among the best of friends and talents I’ve had the pleasure to meet. They never cease to surprise me in their endless originality. Interviewing them for our documentary, RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS got me really up-close; and I take joy in exploring this never-ceasing question: why are these readers so deeply connected to Bilbo’s and Frodo’s story? Why does this phenomenon keep expressing itself in the desire for cosplay, spontaneous music, academic symposiums, boisterous conventions, movie adaptations, and profuse indulgence in second breakfasts? I keep asking through all my interviews and meetings and moots; yet the answer is mercurial.

And what humble, delicate beginnings for a behemoth like THE LORD OF THE RINGS! Let’s take a look at Tolkien’s remarkable publishing history, and thence pop cultural history, because it almost didn’t happen, for many reasons.

Tolkien started off developing the languages, and the foundational cosmological basis for his “secondary world,” while he was still a youngling in college, earning a degree in English Language & Literature. Then World War I arrived with death and disruption. Tolkien survived unwounded but his friends did not – he was medically discharged himself with trench fever. While on sick-leave in 1917 his wife Edith assisted him with hand-copying one of his earliest tales: “The Fall of Gondolin,” a fictional wandering that would ultimately become part of THE SILMARILLION (in fact, much of the content of THE SIL was created in Tolkien’s earlier years).

He was to become an Oxford philologist, dedicating his scholarly life to the study of languages. What better way to explore them than inventing your own! There’s a term for it: glossopoeia. As explained by TORn staff contributor Ostadan: “The word glossopoeia is a coinage derived from Greek, meaning ‘the making of tongues.’ As Tolkien explains, the creation of languages offers both intellectual and aesthetic satisfaction, but at the time he wrote, there were few such creations known to the public.”

By 1917 he was on his way to inventing Quenya and Sindarin – Elvish languages yet to be uttered by Orlando Bloom. Tolkien toyed with bits of poetry and his own slant on languages that he fancied (Finnish, Old Norse, Welsh), an effort which, oh-so-gradually over forty years, became an entire universe. He was also intent on creating a new mythology for England, which he felt lacked its own panorama of deities and “epicness” as Norway did. So THE HOBBIT was begun somewhere around 1930-31 (Tolkien recalls scribbling on a blank sheet of paper while marking examination papers, ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’).

In 1936 Sir Stanley Unwin of Allen & Unwin Publishers got his 10-year-old son Rayner on board as the first ‘early reviewer,’ believing a child was the best judge of children’s fiction. Rayner loved it and wrote a glowing report, describing it as ‘very exciting.’ So THE HOBBIT launched in September 1937, to considerable acclaim and boffo sales.

Sir Stanley quickly asked for a sequel; and the Professor sent them THE SILMARILLION, a woefully different ball of wax, with oddments of archaic manuscripts, a dense mine of data about Middle-earth’s pre-history, genealogies and somewhat biblical-style tracts that didn’t suit anyone’s taste at the publisher’s office. They wanted something with furry feet and gentle appeal.

Saying politely, “No thanks, but give us more material akin to THE HOBBIT,” they received in 1937 the first chapter Tolkien could manage – “A long expected party,” which reveled in much more hobbity sensibilities. The publishers loved what they read. But in so small an act can the hand of destiny be changed. The writing of the damn thing spiraled entirely out of control.

Tolkien felt endless pressure but wrote to Sir Stanley: “The work has escaped from my control and I have produced a monster.” This new epic was to take nearly 13 years, some say 17, during which time he held a chair at Oxford; and then, quick as you can say schnell, World War II arrived. THE LORD OF THE RINGS was finally finished in 1949. Tolkien was nigh 60 years old.

Over those years Tolkien had become quite miffed at Allen & Unwin for saying “no” to THE SILMARILLION. In 1949 he got entangled in a lengthy flirtation with Collins Publishers, hoping a new relationship would yield a home for his greatest effort.

He eventually went back to Allen & Unwin under terms of a new agreement: they would indeed publish THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though there was a critical paper shortage during wartime. Sir Stanley did not take on THE SILMARILLION, either, another stroke against it (after Tolkien died it finally saw print in 1977, thanks to his son Christopher’s tireless efforts).

The decision to split LOTR into three volumes left the Professor rather unhappy. But he settled on the main title as THE LORD OF THE  RINGS, with sub-titles for three distinct volumes (containing two “Books” each)– THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING. He would much rather it had been THE WAR OF THE RING, which he sensed would reveal much less of the actual plot, but that didn’t stick.

It was the High Summer of 1954 – Bill Haley and His Comets would rock around the clock, just as Frodo Baggins made the scene in Volume 1 of LOTR; then Volumes 2 and 3 would arrive later in 1955.

The first wave of fandom simply ate up copies regardless of its mixed reviews. Tolkien’s good friend (and fellow Inkling) C.S. Lewis came to the books’ spirited defense, declaring famously: “Here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron. Here is a book which will break your heart.” W.H. Auden also lauded: “No fiction I have read in the last five years has given me more joy.”

Steady sales and continued profits were nice, but when the American counterculture embraced THE LORD OF THE RINGS some ten years later it really skyrocketed. Over a few months time in 1966, THE LORD OF THE RINGS became a campus craze and books were seen everywhere through dormitory halls – even the University of Southern California Irvine Campus had a housing section renamed a lá Middle-earth. Causing admiration and titters alike (depending on your level of fandom) 1700 students to this day lounge in halls with such names as “Rivendell” or “Quenya.” The first and strongest wave of Western pop culture, the hippie movement, was staking its claim on how Tolkien was perceived and enjoyed by a broadly literate youth generation. Then there was the scandal of the “bootleg paperback version” of LOTR that were completely unauthorized (the guilty party being ACE Paperbacks) but that was resolved with the support of students/fans protesting booksellers who carried ACE and thus a new Ballentine edition was soon printed with Tolkien’s note on the back cover — much of this fuss we cover in greater detail in our documentary.

Then the Rock & Rollers picked up the books. An entire section of the RINGERS film covers that dynamic period where Tolkien unwittingly affected musicians of the time. Marc Bolan (of T-Rex) and David Bowie hit the underground “Middle-earth Club” on the seedy side of London. Connect the musical dots to Led Zeppelin; whose albums are rife with LOTR references and characters due to Robert Plant’s fertile affection for Tolkien’s books. I had a revealing chat with director Cameron Crowe who confessed: “Oh you’ve got to talk with my wife Nancy (Wilson of Heart), because she just loves it!” Then there was Geddy Lee (Rush), and nowadays we have Justin Timberlake – hardcore Ringers one and all.

Tolkien was uncomfortable with the explosion of attention. He was a tweedy Oxford don, after all, and wanted nothing to do with the drug-addled young people tramping across his rose garden and peeping into his windows while he worked. He once called them “my deplorable cultus.” After his death in 1973, and the posthumous publication of THE SILMARILLION, the wave of pop surrounding Bilbo and Frodo became a unique beast of another color.

The holiday animation company Rankin/Bass (yes, the folks who did stop-motion Rudolph and Frosty) brought us THE HOBBIT in less than 90 minutes of Japanese-produced 2D glory in 1977. Then Ralph Bakshi rotoscoped his drop-acid take on the first half of LOTR, but he never got to make his finale. Yet the fantasy explosion of the Eighties was off to a roaring start. Tolkien fueled all this, without dispute, and up sprang authors like David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Stephen R. Donaldson, and Marion Zimmer Bradley. Someone with a polyhedral die and several pages of Middle-earthy maps invented a pen & paper game that you might vaguely recall. And you can bet your Muggle face that J.K. Rowling was devouring the Professor’s books at the time, storing it all away for future inspiration.

Enter onto the 1990′s digital stage TheOneRing.net – an online fan community affectionately known as TORn – the largest, longest-running, all-volunteer web portal unique to a single fandom. As contributors to TORn, we spend our energy reporting news, presenting special panels coast-to-coast at massive Comic-Cons and Dragon*Cons, moderating forums, chat rooms, and Facebook timelines with an endless flow of fans who collide as much as confer. We produced three gobsmacking Oscar Parties just for Ringers, one event yearly for each of Peter Jackson’s sprawling films, which were attended by the trophy-bearing cast and crew. On the year of THE RETURN OF THE KING’s 11-Oscar sweep, the Kiwi filmmakers were especially eager to greet the grassroots fan audience that so avidly showed them three years of love (and repeat ticket sales). We also produced a hellzapoppin’ Oscar event for the HOBBIT: AUJ in 2013, providing a unique atmosphere for aficionados to celebrate a shared affection for Tolkien with creators from behind the camera.

Now the newest excursion into Tolkien’s legendarium is upon us with the late 2012 release of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY. Not to mention the attendant merchandising and collectibles now flooding the market. Jackson and his team of film artisans surmounted terrific odds to return all the familiar players to New Zealand. The anticipation has left most fans breathless; while many purists may bemoan the stretching of an episodic 280-page children’s story into 3 extra long films. The level of involvement among fans hasn’t lessened, instead reaching a new zenith by way of shared electronic media.

On our weekly live webcast aptly named “TORn Tuesday,” actors and artists ranging from Sean Astin to Peter S. Beagle join me for a merry discussion of how THE LORD OF THE RINGS has impacted their lives. They definitively illuminate how Tolkien remains so relevant. These artists have lived and breathed the magic of Middle-earth in myriad ways. Nearly 60 years later Tolkien’s masterworks have reached countless millions; and there’s a vibrant community online that supports many great events and causes, all sharing the same literary joy. I’ve never witnessed another phenomenon like it. A shared passion for the Professor’s 1200 page opus is the very liferoot of it all.

As I said, Ringer fans really do know what they like.

Much too hasty,

‘Quickbeam’

Clifford Broadway

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Clifford Broadway, longtime contributor and webhost for TheOneRing.net, is co-author of the bestseller “The People’s Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien” (2003) and co-writer/producer of the award-winning RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS (Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, 2005).

Follow us on Twitter:

TheOneRing.net @theoneringnet

Cliff Scott Broadway @Quickbeam2000

This thing went nuts with 200,000 views in 7 hours! With a busy Facebook timeline like ours at TheOneRing.net, it is always cool to see what stands out as a favorite popular post.  Today’s image of Aragorn having a fun soliloquy about the day we STOP loving The Lord of the Rings became our most widely-seen and mega shared post of the year!

So why are fans so quickly drawn to a declarative statement like: “Other Fandoms may ebb and flow, but Tolkien fans are committed to these stories for life?” Quickbeam has pondered that very thing: and here is his article from this week, above

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By Tedoras — special to TheOneRing.net

In recent years, and especially following the release of the first installment of The Hobbit films, Latin America and China have both become major sources of Tolkien fandom.  While we often associate the works of Tolkien with the English-speaking world, the international nature of modern Ringerdom cannot be ignored.  The Spanish and Chinese-speaking markets have undeniably helped in making An Unexpected Journey the fourteenth highest grossing film of all time.  An historical challenge with Tolkien’s works, however, is how best to translate them. Whether in film or literature, translators have struggled and debate for years on how translate the names of people and places without losing the original sound and meaning that the Professor clearly intended. The process of de-anglicizing these nouns is further complicated because not only must English-language etymology be considered, but also that of Middle-earth’s many distinct tongues.

In Middle-earth, we find a strong correlation between sound and meaning that is particularly evident in the context of “soft” or “hard/harsh” names.  For example, the word “Shire” conjures up visions of a distinctly British pastoral community — in essence, one notes a favorable and pleasant sense simply from reading the word. In contrast, “Dol Guldur” is composed of hard consonants and more guttural vowels which denote a rather negative air.  Another popular theme is the use of alliteration; it is no mere coincidence that Bilbo Baggins lives in Bag End. As you will see, the biggest problem in translating proper nouns is deciding whether to maintain the original sound or meaning intended by the author, when often both cannot be kept.

It just so happens that Chinese and Spanish are two languages I study, so, in homage to the large Latin American and Chinese Tolkien-fan base around the world, I have decided to present some translations of proper nouns from The Hobbit. While these translations certainly highlight the many different ways Tolkien’s works can be translated, they also provide some important insight into Middle-earth (and some unintended laughs along the way).

I first present some Spanish translations of proper names.

These translations reflect an effort to keep the original meaning of a word, rather than its sound.  However, because of its close relationship with English, Spanish allows for the pronunciation of many words in their original form.

Bilbo Bolsón

This is of course our favorite hobbit, Bilbo Baggins. Interesting here is the translation of the surname.  In Spanish, “bolsón” is the augmentative form of “bolsa,” which literally means “bag.”  A “bolsón” is simply a large bag or backpack, yet in translation it is used to convey the “bag” in Baggins.

Bardo el Arquero

Bard the Bowman is, in Spanish, literally Bard the Archer. In this case, we note a loss of alliteration in translation. It may seem trivial, but alliteration very much shapes how we view a character. The strong “b” sound in Bard’s English title provides him with a bold, confident aura. In a way, the Spanish version tries to make up for this loss by means of assonance and the repetition of the “o” in Bardo and “Arquero.”

Guille Estrujónez

Bill Huggins is one of our favorite trolls. His surname is of particular interest; in the translation, we find the Spanish word “estrujón,” literally “squeeze/press” or “bear hug.” There are two aspects to this translation: first, if we take the “bear hug” approach, then you will notice how “hug” is also present in his English surname (Huggins); and secondly, from the Spanish name one is immediately aware that this character must be strong and large.

Piedra del Arca

The Arkenstone can be interpreted many ways in Spanish. “Arca” can refer to a chest (as in of treasure) or to an ark (as in Noah’s). Either translation lends an antiquarian, more mystical nature to the stone.

La Comarca

In Spanish, the Shire is known rather literally as a “region” or “province”. This name was translated out of necessity, for in Spanish the “sh” sound does not typically exist. Personally, I find this name lacking of the novelty of “Shire.”

Bolsón Cerrado

The Spanish name for “Bag End” is rather odd. We find Bilbo’s surname used to represent the “Bag” in his aforementioned smial, but where one expects to find “end” there is the Spanish “cerrado” (literally “closed”). I am at a loss as to how to properly account for his translation; I will note, however, that the name flows much better as translated than if any variant of “end” had been used instead.

Montañas Nubladas

I find the Spanish name for the Misty Mountains very descriptive. Of note here is “nubladas” (literally, “cloudy/overcast”, from “nube” cloud). While “misty” and “cloudy” both denote mystery, the Spanish name is particularly foreboding; the verb “nublar” means “to darken/to cloud” and has a negative and ominous connotation in Spanish. This is of course an apt warning of the Misty Mountains.

Lago Largo

The Spanish version of the “Long Lake” is very evocative of its English translation. Both exhibit an alliterative nature and are composed of two one-syllable words. This is, perhaps, exemplary of an ideal translation, if ever there were such a thing, as neither an ounce of meaning nor sound is lost.

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Next I present some Chinese translations of proper names.

Before continuing, however, I must note a few important characteristics of the Chinese language for those who have no experience with it. Unlike Spanish, Chinese is much more concerned with the preservation of sound. The Chinese have a long tradition of translating words such that they are phonetically similar to their native language-form. Here are two examples: first, the Chinese name for Germany is deguo (de, because of the German Deutschland, and guo meaning “country/nation”). While the character de has literal meaning (“virtues” or “ethics”), in this context it is used simply because it sounds like the “de” in Deutschland. Another example is the translation of the English name Michael; the Chinese form, maike, literally means something along the lines of “overcome wheat”. Yet, again, the Chinese in this instance forgo meaning in favor of sound. Thus, as you will see, the majority of translations involve preserving sound in Chinese. Yet looking at what potential literal translations of the names yield is a rather funny and interesting task.

#1 (huo bi te ren)

This is the Chinese form of “hobbit.” It can literally be translated as “quickly compare special people.” This name, oddly enough, recognizes one truth: the unique and special nature of hobbits. Whether conveyance of this meaning was intended or not by the translator, I am not sure, though.

#2 (gu lu mu)

As you might have guessed, this is Gollum in Chinese. The literal meaning of this name is very odd: it can be translated as “nanny guru.” It does imply Gollum is old (which is true) and beholding of some secret knowledge, as a guru is (also, perhaps, true).

#3 (zhong tu shi jie)

The Chinese name for Middle-earth is an example where meaning is carried over sound. It literally means “middle earth/soil world”. However, another translation of “zhong1 tu3” is “Sino-Turkish,” though, of course, that is not the intended meaning.

#4 (bierbo bajinsi)

This is Bilbo Baggins—and a very difficult name to translate, too. The first name cannot really be translated at all. However, the surname is quite interesting; one translation could be “long for gold” which, although perhaps not applicable to Bilbo himself, is a rather pertinent note on the story as a whole.

#5 (gan dao fu)

As it sounds, this is Gandalf. The translation I like most for his name is “willing path man,” for, as we know, Gandalf is an instinctive wanderer; they do call him The Grey Pilgrim, after all.

#6 (si mao ge)

Smaug’s name is also very apt for his character. I translate this name as “careless spear,” which reflects his wantonly destructive nature.

#7 (you an mi lin)

The Chinese form of Mirkwood is another rare instance where meaning is favored over sound. This name literally means “gloomy jungle.” The dark and ominous connotation of the Chinese form is, in my opinion, much more powerfully negative than even the original English.

#8 (tuo er jin)

Lastly, I decided to include Tolkien’s Chinese name because it is oddly appropriate for the Professor. The name can be translated as “entrusting you with gold,” which I interpret in two ways: first, this can be seen as a reference to The One Ring, and, second, it can refer to Tolkien’s gift of his writings to us (his literary “gold,” if you will). Again, any intent on the part of the translator is impossible to know.

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…. stay tuned for more from Tedoras ….

Join us every Tuesday for more engaging conversation with live chatters around the world who join our innovative broadcast TORn TUESDAY, featuring interviews with Tolkien/Fantasy luminaries, authors, and artists — many of whom are Ringer fans just like us! Every Tuesday at 5:00PM Pacific Time

Also, TORn regular Puma linked this excellent Youtube video of JRR Tolkien reading from the chapter when the Ents come from Entmoot to march on Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Apr 21 07:26:47 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s topic: The Two Towers. Treebeard!!! | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Let’s start and people can catch up?
[Jenniearcheo] It’s more involved than I remember
[Xanaseb] tis the looooong one yup?
[Demosthenes] jennie: truth
[sunshower] it is long
[Erestel] Hello! What’s the current Treebeard discussion?
[Pete_R] No, Jennie, I was imitating that famous Ent from Brooklyn, Ralph Kramden
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[sunshower] let’s!
[Puma] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPV63iW6gFM
[Xanaseb] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Erestel: We are discussing the unexpected length of the chapter
[Puma] that link is a good way to start
[sunshower] haha Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol Pete
[Puma] jrr himself
[Demosthenes] jennie: i like that as a starting point. It’s surprising … and yet not really.
[Xanaseb] haha nice Puma.
[sunshower] fits with Ent talk
[Xanaseb] indeeed
[Xanaseb] very well hehe
[Puma] nothing like the masters voice
[Jenniearcheo] Well, no forest is worth describing if it doesn’t take a long time to describe.
[Pete_R] I love hearing Tolkien read his stries
[Agonold] It takes a while to say anything in entish, let alone read about such amazing creatures
[Xanaseb] o.o though his ‘to Isengard’ really grates the ears lolol
[Puma] its upposed to
[Xanaseb] yup, desired effect
[Erestel] Ah, yes. A chapter as slow as the mannerisms of the old ent himself.
[Puma] hobbits covered their ears
[laughing_gull] I love that, never heard it before
[Jenniearcheo] I’m more interested in their on-again-off-again relationship with the elves
[Darkover] Jennie, I got the impression the Elves were interested in the Elves once, but no longer
[Jenniearcheo] hah
[Darkover] sorry, Ents
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I thought you meant that.
[Puma] well.to me this chapter introduces us to one of most original creatures in all literature
[Darkover] By this Age, the Elves weren’t interested in much except the past
[Jenniearcheo] As they’re fading, and all
[sunshower] self centered those Elves
[Pete_R] but elves are always interested in elves.
[Darkover] yes, I was unitentionally funny
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Agonold] On Jennie’s point, if anyone here plays LOTRO, an elf complete nerds out when he gets to meet an ent.
[Darkover] howdy, Puma
[Xanaseb] lol.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think it’s more than just their appearance.
[Agonold] It’s like a little kid meeting mickey mouse
[Xanaseb] well, I think the Ents are quite their own overall.. though it’s hinted that they were more.. open?.. in the past
[Demosthenes] There are plenty of novel-looking creatures dished out in fantasy settings.
[Puma] well….other than ents teaching ents to speak…and yes.treebeard had met celeborn and galadriel…we dont know of any ent/elf interaction
[Erestel] When’s that, Agonold? I remember killing a rouge ent at one point and meeting one on the shores of Nenuial.
[Erestel] *rogue
[Agonold] Erestel, its during the epic quest, you meet him just outside of the raided orc camp near the end of the entwash arc with the rest of the crew.
[Puma] so where shall we start?
[Demosthenes] What makes ents unique?
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the walking trees thing?
[Xanaseb] what makes them unique ??????!!…..
[Xanaseb] lol……
[miriel] dems: everything?
[Puma] well….many things make ents unique
[Puma] language
[Darkover] I’m not sure they would say Ents are unique. They remind me of male dryads, actually
[Jenniearcheo] Not many other species transmogrify between plant and critter and back
[Pete_R] and sentient (?) thought
[Darkover] I think dryads were originally female, I mean
[Xanaseb] Darkover… unique in Middle-Earth anyhow
[Puma] i dont know of any middle earth creature as strong as ents
[Darkover] true, Xanaseb
[laughing_gull] I think their relative unknown-ness makes them pretty unique in Middle-Earth
[Darkover] Trolls are, I think, but then, trolls are the dark version of Ents, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] They stand up in the rain to sleep?
[Darkover] as orcs are of elves
[Pete_R] I’d like to see a wresting match between an ent and a troll
[Agonold] according to Treebeard, Sauron was jealous and based trolls off of the ents.
[Xanaseb] lol Pete inded.
[Darkover] Right, Agonold, as I just said
[Erestel] I’d say an ent is stronger than a troll. Trolls can’t split stone with their voice.
[Puma] trolls/ent was just treebeards theory….he is not all knowing
[miriel] indeed Darkover and Agonold
[Darkover] neither can Ents, so far as I know, Erestel
[Darkover] they can tear stone as if it is paper, but not with their voices
[Pete_R] I aree, Erestel, but I still would like to see them fight
[Puma] yes.ents did split stone with their voices
[Erestel] I remember something being said about the power of their voice in battle, during the battle of Isengard.
[Darkover] Maybe it is just as well it takes time for an Ent to make up his mind about a person–not a good idea to get on their bad side
[Puma] it is there Erestel
[Pete_R] but it makes sense, Ouma, since he made orcs based on (eand from) elves
[Pete_R] Puma, not Ouma
[Puma] no.jrr had many theories about orc origins
[Darkover] After all, Puma, neither Sauron nor Morgoth could create–they could only corrupt
[Puma] he decided it was not elves
[Pete_R] since when? I didn;t read that
[Darkover] I don’t recall that, either, Puma
[laughing_gull] I’m pretty sure in LOTR they originated from elves
[sunshower] Treebeard mentions that these Orcs may be corrupted men?
[Puma] have you read HOME 10-11.its in one of those 2
[Demosthenes] I wondered, reading this chapter, whether Ents were the most patient creatures in middle-earth … or the greatest brooders.
[Pete_R] He did say that, and if he recanted later, I missed it
[Darkover] Maybe both, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (maybe one is just the flipside of the other)
[Demosthenes] GMTA Darkover
[miriel] the slowest, certainly
[Erestel] There were several different explanations for the origins of Orcs, but as far as I know the only one that made it into official canon is Elf corruption by Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] The ultimate Middle Earth couch potatoes
[Puma] i think ents are like the forest….not seeming to do much
[Pete_R] Well, ents *are* slow to anger, so that makes them patient, I guess
[Xanaseb] I think they are devoid of many of the characteristics of humans, elves and dwarves.. the nastier sorts…
[Darkover] GMTA? Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] well there’s no evidence for it in anycase
[laughing_gull] They are slow and contemplative but that makes them grow strong
[sunshower] well, Pete_R–Treebeard did have a bit of an outburst right off the bat
[laughing_gull] so I wouldn’t call them couch potatoes
[Puma] true Xana….right off treebeard treats the hobbit in a kindly manner
[sunshower] he did catch himself though
[Jenniearcheo] Great minds, Darkover
[Demosthenes] But we see that Treebeard has been thinking a long long time … and that seems to play into the extent of their anger when they do get annoyed.
[Darkover] Thank you, Jennie
[Pete_R] which outburst, sunshower?
[sunshower] “I will stop it” he boomed
[Demosthenes] In fact, Treebeard says that his first instinct was to squash merry and pippin.
[Puma] till he heard their voices
[Pete_R] but thankfully, he wasn’t hasty
[Demosthenes] Ents are a bit wild?
[Darkover] Happily, he didn’t. Again, it’s a good thing Ents aren’t “hasty.”
[Puma] yes
[Pete_R] I guess that shows that ents *can* act quickly, if ned be.
[Puma] ents are the wild side of nature
[Puma] entwives the tame side of nature
[Jenniearcheo] laughing_gull: My point was the fact that Treebeard had known for some time about Saruman’s dirty deeds but admits he should have done something and didn’t. Then, too, sometimes ents become treelike if they aren’t active
[laughing_gull] true Jennie!
[Darkover] I suspect in earlier Ages, they were not so somnolent.
[Xanaseb] Dems wilder maybe… but also less marred by evil conscience/influence
[Demosthenes] and nature is on its own side. Fangorn says that a few times.
[Pete_R] As Treebeard said, it takes a lot to rouse an ent
[Darkover] They just became that way over time.
[Jenniearcheo] Entwives seem to prefer “ordered” nature. Gardens and orchards
[Puma] well…..remember .in the willowmeads of tasarinan.treebeard had traveled far in the past
[Jenniearcheo] “Peace” meaning stuff growing where you planted it
[Darkover] I agree, Jennie, I noticed that too.
[Xanaseb] wanderer hi
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all over Beleriand and all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gmta = great minds think alike (belatedly)
[laughing_gull] What had changed that made them become more …somnolent I guess?
[Pete_R] I wonder if th ents originally lived in the Tasarinan area, but moved eastward to escape Morgoth and Sauron
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: good question
[Demosthenes] They grew up?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he mentions the . . .what, “great darkness” or whatever? several times
[sunshower] in the Spring–Tasarinian
[Jenniearcheo] The flooding of the western bits
[Darkover] Maybe just the passage of time, laughing_gull. Maybe that is normal for Ents, the way Elves become more past-looking, and start to fade
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe that took the fun out of the world
[miriel] if they change over time, will they change from what we saw in LotR?
[sunshower] Summer–Ossiriand
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s the same reason that elves became less interested in the world around them.
[Darkover] Probably, Miriel
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Pete_R] that would probably do it, Jennie
[Demosthenes] hullo wanderer
[miriel] wb wanderer
[Demosthenes] miriel: I think they change in the span that we see them, actually.
[Demosthenes] And these changes are introduced by Merry and Pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that he mentions deep dark places in woods. But he strongly implies Lothlorien is worse than the Old Forest in this regard. But we saw the opposite
[laughing_gull] Yes Treebeard mentions that later I think
[miriel] they got woken up, for sure
[galenrandir] Hello!
[Darkover] Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Elves taught Ents to speak … what do Merry and Pippin teach them? To be hasty/hastier?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe. Why would ents worry about being captured by fairies, though?
[Jenniearcheo] That seems a mannish sort of worry
[Demosthenes] I think that’s likely.
[Pete_R] Treeberad, re: hlorien: “Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower. Ah well! But it is a queer place, and not for just any one to venture in. I am surprised that you ever got out, but much more surprised that you ever got in: that has not happened to strangers for many a year. It is a queer land.”
[Darkover] I think Merry and Pippin also reminded Treebeard that the Ents are still part of M-E
[Pete_R] Lothlorien
[Xanaseb] lol @ being captured by fairies.
[PippinForTheWin] they reminded treebeard that even though people don’t really care for trees, they can still mke a difference
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . that’s the parallel to the elves, really. Tolkien used to use the terms interchangably
[Pete_R] To not be so self-involved, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] and maybe, that the Ents had a responsibility to more than trees, with people like Saruman and Sauron around
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: like elves?
[Darkover] As Pete said
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s a good thought too.
[Pete_R] exactly, Demz
[PippinForTheWin] thanks
[Demosthenes] There seems to be a certain amount of (elvish) resignation about Fangorn at the start of the chapter that no longer is there at the end.
[PippinForTheWin] i think what really inspired treebeard was that these two little guys were standing up to this huge ent
[sunshower] what is with the liquids that seem to be gold and green?
[PippinForTheWin] so he figured that anyone of any size can change the world
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, there was some spooky light juju going on in Treebeard’s house
[laughing_gull] That’s an interesting point, PippinForTheWin, he had kind of given up but the hobbits hadn’t
[Darkover] PippinForTheWin, I wouldn’t say they exactly “stood up” to him, more like they persuaded him. Don’t confuse book with movie.
[miriel] I think merry and pippin brought to light what he had been trying not to see, even if he knew of it in the back of his head
[Jenniearcheo] Most resignations, through the whole story, tend to disappear with greater understanding.
[sunshower] the blending of the two lights…..hmmmmm
[PippinForTheWin] true… hadn’t read the books in a long time
[Darkover] Merry and Pippin reminded the Ents of their responsibilities, I think
[PippinForTheWin] yeah, that there was still more that he could do to protect his forest
[Darkover] right
[PippinForTheWin] even when all else hope failed
[Pete_R] I’ve read the books 19 times, but I still forget sometimes some events that are movie-only and book-only. Time to read again
[Demosthenes] I think they both persuaded and inspired him. And that carried over in the entmoot. I think, maybe, they were a catalyst for something that might have happened eventually anyway. But which otherwise might have happened too late for either Rohan or for the Ents themselves?
[Demosthenes] What do people think of this?
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Xanaseb] yup
[galenrandir] i agree
[Xanaseb] I think so.
[Darkover] That sounds exactly right to me, Demosthenes
[laughing_gull] I don’t necessarily agree lol
[PippinForTheWin] could be
[Darkover] The Ents would have galvanized themselves eventually, I suspect, but it would have been too late.
[laughing_gull] I don’t think it’s made clear if it would have happened or not
[sunshower] Treebeard now understands “what he is up to”
[Demosthenes] We do know Treebeard was brooding over the destruction of the trees. But that’s all he was doing. He was … fatalistic?
[PippinForTheWin] though i don’t think that anyone with the determination of merry and pippin would at any other time come to him
[sunshower] thanks to M&P, I guess
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he was waiting for someone else to care about the ents
[Agonold] Whenever I read this chapter/ think about the entwives I feel like Pippin and Merry should have went back to the Old Forest and asked old Tom Bombadil if he knew anything about where the entwives might be.
[Demosthenes] Thanks to M&P. that’s … serendipity.
[Pete_R] Good point, Dems. R=The ents were so sleepy, mediatiating on their own navals that it would have taken a prolonged attack on the Old Forest to rouse them, but it probably would have been too late. Merry and Pippin saved the day
[Xanaseb] aha.
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, Tom may only have known if they’d passed through his land
[Darkover] I always wondered why they left.
[Darkover] the Entwives
[Pete_R] Listening to “In Dreams” on Pandora
[laughing_gull] I always feel sad that we never find out any more about the entwives
[Demosthenes] ‘Up we go!’ said Merry joyfully. ‘Now for a breath of air, and a sight of the land!’
[Demosthenes] They climbed and scrambled up the rock. If the stair had been made it was for bigger feet and longer legs than theirs.
[PippinForTheWin] i wish we knew what they looked like
[Demosthenes] So this really is a turning point.
[Agonold] knowing where they went is better than not knowing anything, jenniearcheo
[Pete_R] Sadly, Tolkien said somewhere (Letters, maybe), that the entwives were probably dead.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they favored one sort of home and the ents another. They were less and less compatible as time went on, and then Sauron seems to have destroyed the orderly gardens and orchards.
[PippinForTheWin] did he say that in teh books?
[Demosthenes] Also, somewhat ironically, saruman encompasses his own destruction by bringing the hobbits in contact with Treebeard.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he kill them all? Hard to say
[Erestel] I think it was said that they traveled east, but for what reason I can’t remember, and that the Brown Lands by the Anduin were once their domain.
[miriel] indeed, it is sad, about the entwives
[Demosthenes] I’d never thought of that before.
[Pete_R] Not in the trilogy, PippinForTheWin, elsewhere
[miriel] and even if they were not dead, they had probably changed too much anyway
[Demosthenes] Is that providence?
[galenrandir] I’ve forgotten, is it known what happened to the Entwives after the Brown lands?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. Interesting
[Pete_R] True, Demz, re: Saruman. And Sauron eventually brought his own destruction abiut in a number of ways–making the Ring was the biggest goof
[Darkover] The departure of the Entwives probably isn’t, but I think Merry and Pippin meeting up with Treebeard was providential
[laughing_gull] I’m sure Tolkien would have seen it as providence
[laughing_gull] considering his beliefs
[sunshower] *making* other lifeforms is kind of against the rules, isn’t it?
[Jenniearcheo] We never hear, galenrandir. Treebeard thinks they’ve gone west or something and that eventually they’ll meet up with them. Made it sound like they’d all board some log canoes for Valinor or sommat. Weird
[sunshower] or adapting, rather
[Pete_R] True, if Merry and Pippn hadn’t been captured by orcs and brought to the edge of the Old Forest, the war would have gone very differently
[Demosthenes] It also goes back to Gandalf speaking in favour of M&P after the Council. Someone like Glorfindel /probably/ could not have done this.
[Demosthenes] Don’t you think?
[sunshower] …even the smallest person….
[Darkover] Definitely, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] true
[PippinForTheWin] definately
[Xanaseb] *definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Particularly with the elvish-entish distrust that’s creeped into the relationship
[PippinForTheWin] *definitely whoops
[Demosthenes] Not just because of the weight of history between elves and ents. But also because of the different world-view hobbits bring.
[Demosthenes] yes jennie. the novelty of hobbits forces treebeard to re-examine many things.
[Jenniearcheo] Indeed
[Pete_R] Deemz, that was anither example of gandalf’s second sight. Like when he chose Bilbo. I like it when, on Unfisnished tales, Gimli asks if gandalf knew more than he was telling them about events, and Gandalf wouldn’t answer
[PippinForTheWin] i think hobbits are so untouched by corrupt ways, treebeard realizes that the opinions aren’t biased
[Demosthenes] ‘Why not make a new line?’ said Pippin.
[Demosthenes] ‘Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers.
[Demosthenes] Put us in amongst the four, next to Man (the Big People) and you’ve got it.’
[Jenniearcheo] If the old verses about the peoples of the world are incomplete, perhaps their worldview needs a general rethink
[laughing_gull] Demosthenes would you care to elaborate on the different world-view? not sure I follow
[Demosthenes] ^^^ i think that is more important than it first seems.
[Darkover] and hobbits still take pleasure in life. They are not jaded or tired, like the older species. Treebeard later refers to them as “the laughing folk, the little people.” That may have been a factor.
[PippinForTheWin] they keep to themselves
[Demosthenes] I guess, culturally, Hobbits bring a positivity and “carry-on” attitude that seems to be inherent to them.
[Jenniearcheo] And they seem to care about the ents, once they hear the story.
[laughing_gull] keeping to themselves seems to be something ents and hobbits have in common interesting
[Jenniearcheo] How English
[laughing_gull] ok
[Demosthenes] That’s not something you always get from men or elves or dwarves.
[michael336] In Chapter 2 of Fellowship, Sam mentions someone seeing trees walking near the Shire. I always assumed that these were the Entwives.
[galenrandir] me too
[laughing_gull] me too michael
[Demosthenes] like Darkover says, they are not jaded.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps that’s part of why Treebeard didn’t do anything about Saruman for so long. At one time, they’d been friends. Even though Saruman had never imparted any information, at least he seemed to care.
[Darkover] IMO, Hobbits don’t have the curiosity that the Elves had–or had once–but they do care about people, in a way that is almost unique to them.
[sunshower] breath of fresh air, Hobbits
[Darkover] agreed, sunshower
[Demosthenes] Yeah, all these things.
[PippinForTheWin] i think treebeard thought that saruman would change back from his evil ways, but once he saw all the destruction,he lost hope
[galenrandir] I can see the entwives enjoying the area around the shire
[Darkover] I think you’re right, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s another interesting thought. Did Treebeard hope that?
[Jenniearcheo] True, galenrandir. They do like cultivation
[PippinForTheWin] he didn’t want to believe it, which is why i think he didn’t want to take part in the war
[PippinForTheWin] he just hoped
[Demosthenes] He was in denial that things had changed?
[Pete_R] yes, Demz
[sunshower] elephant in the room thing
[PippinForTheWin] maybe?
[PippinForTheWin] not really sure
[Darkover] Also, the Ents don’t seem too big on making things happen–they seem to prefer to wait for things to happen.
[flufftheagent] hulloooo
[Jenniearcheo] Or he thought that since he was essentially betrayed by the one dude who cared at all . . . Why bother doing anything if nobody was “on his side”
[sunshower] hi flufftheagent
[Darkover] hi, flufftheagent
[Pete_R] he woudn’t accept it until he saw the damage that ors had done to the forest
[Demosthenes] I cannot remember that he ever told. me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face, as I remember it – I have not seen it for many a day – became like windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside.
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Jenniearcheo. how could he know that Merry and Pippin wouldn’t turn out like saruman?
[sunshower] Pete_R, he *had* seen the damage before M&P got there, right?
[Darkover] Maybe that was how he rationalized it, Jennie–an Ent’s first responsibility is to the trees
[Jenniearcheo] Because unlike Saruman, they told him nearly their whole story.
[Pete_R] oh yeah, sunshower–need to read agan
[Demosthenes] ‘I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. ”
[galenrandir] he also liked their voices
[flufftheagent] what is this nit picking?
[sunshower] [--gets movie influences!
[laughing_gull] they “reminded him of something he couldn’t remember” right?
[Darkover] probably they reminded him of Entings, laughing_gull
[Demosthenes] ” he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” that’s an interesting summation of Saruman’s character.
[PippinForTheWin] maybe he hadn’t been that cared for since the Entwives?
[laughing_gull] that’s what I always thought
[Darkover] and an accurate one, Demosthenes
[michael336] I think Treebeard figured, “It’s not our fight.” He and the Ents had lived through ages of fighting among the other races. This is one more instance of the “hastiness” of the non-Ent races. Just sit back and let it play out. it doesn’t concern the Ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Growing things. So, the entwives preferred planned, orderly growing things and the ents preferred wild growing things. How like men they really are
[Darkover] I think that was Treebeard’s attitude, Michael336, until Merry and Pippin persuaded him otherwise.
[Demosthenes] michael336: there’s also a bit of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” going on in this hcapter.
[PippinForTheWin] It seems that the ents are more or less like the eagles- they stay out of anyone’s business unless it concerns them
[Pete_R] true, michael336, the ents had been withdrawn from the world for a few thousand years, probably
[Darkover] well, we could argue that is true for most people, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] treebeard says as much:
[Demosthenes] ‘I will stop it!’ he boomed. ‘And you shall come with me. You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way, too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor will have an enemy behind as well as in front. Our roads go together – to Isengard!’
[michael336] I can see a parallel between the Ents and America’s isolationism prior to WW2. Not that Tolkien was making this connection….
[PippinForTheWin] Darkover, but at least in the land of ME, there are many similarities between the two
[Darkover] But in defense of the Ents, when they do make up their minds to do something, there is nothing halfway about it
[Demosthenes] Tolkien would deny any allegory, I’m sure.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think that’s the flip of being such patient things. Once the patience is exhausted there are no half measures.
[michael336] Not an allegory, but perhaps an inspiration?
[Demosthenes] We see this in the search ofr the entwives too i think.
[Pete_R] Isolationism is as old as civilization, I bet
[Darkover] well put, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Except that over time they ventured less and less far
[Demosthenes] They throw themselves wholly into trying to find them.
[Demosthenes] I guess that is … despair?
[Demosthenes] or acceptance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps. Although I think he doesn’t quite want to accept their demise
[miriel] maybe a mix?
[Pete_R] sounds like despair
[Jenniearcheo] He still has hope
[Demosthenes] A faint hope.
[PippinForTheWin] i think he gains hope from M&P
[Pete_R] as in “The etwives may still be alive, but I doubt if we can find them”
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they remind him of teh Entwives
[miriel] but from his talk, it sounds like he does not want to accept it
[Demosthenes] Perhaps the loss of the Entwives made the ents more fatalistic too.
[Jenniearcheo] Their fave place was decimated by Sauron and he wonders where they went, rather than whether they’re dead
[Demosthenes] I’d never considered that.
[Pete_R] Or entings, more likely, PippinForTheWin
[laughing_gull] interesting thought
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Darkover] could be
[PippinForTheWin] i think he’s worried that the Entwives have forgotten him, and he feels forgotten until M&P show up
[Xanaseb] that’s a good point about the Entwives
[Darkover] and probably left the Ents feeling more isolated
[miriel] I wonder, with their long lives, wether they had a need as strong as other beings to multiply
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] Maybe not, miriel. Ents remind me of Elves in that way.
[galenrandir] interesting thought Pippinforthewin
[Pete_R] Whatever, I’m sure tht Treebeard’s hopes of finding the entwives had been severely rocked, by the time he met M&P
[Xanaseb] I can’t remember the story he tells now.. did he say that they suddenly dissapeared one day, or that they realised one day that they could not find them?
[miriel] the latter
[Darkover] doesn’t he say they lost them?
[miriel] they crossed the river, and made gardens
[Darkover] and now they can’t find them?
[Demosthenes] I wonder, is there a moral in this for us in terms of being hasty versus being thougtful and patient?
[miriel] and the ents only visited now and again
[laughing_gull] I believe they disappeared after an attack by sauron correct?
[miriel] and one day when they visited, they were gone
[Pete_R] They just wandered farter and farther away, gradualy, didn’t they?
[Xanaseb] well, in that case, I think the way in which it happened was so gradual and unsensed by them that they probably wouldn’t have changed that much as a result of it happening IMO.
[Darkover] well, maybe the Ents were *too* patient, and the Entwives got tired of it. I suppose we will never know.
[Jenniearcheo] The preferred habitat of the ents and their entwives grew more and more incompatible
[Xanaseb] ah, well maybe not then
[Erestel] Yes, laughing_gull. Their gardens in the Brown Lands were destroyed during a war, more than likely the War of the Last Alliance.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Jenniearcheo] Or they went shopping.
[Jenniearcheo] And they never buy anything unless it takes a loooong tiiiiime to buyyyyyy
[Demosthenes] Erestel: or when Sauron invaded Eriador. It’s a bit obscure there.
[miriel] no xana, it still must have been a shock, they took them for granted, and then suddenly they were gone
[Xanaseb] yeah, just realised that miri
[Darkover] If the Entwives left voluntarily, I’ll be that is what did it–I’ll bet the Ents took them for granted.
[Pete_R] I remember it was long ago �C in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea �C desire came over me to see Fimbrethil again. Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their
[Pete_R] and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some
[PippinForTheWin] I’m sorry- what book is all this mentioned in?
[Pete_R] Sorry, gDem, uess I’m getting ahead
[Darkover] Maybe they left, but what Pete just quoted kind of implies they all died/were killed off.
[laughing_gull] if you finish the quote it doesn’t
[Jenniearcheo] So they physically changed, as well.Turning brown and bent and parched. If ents can turn into trees . . . can entwives turn into something else?
[Erestel] @ PippinForTheWin: The Entwives story? Treebeard tells the story of the entwives in full in his chapter of The Two Towers.
[Demosthenes] I suspect Sauron’s minions destroyed them all. But there is nothing conclusive to back that up i think.
[Jenniearcheo] There is also a brief bit about their language (they liked Elvish) in the appendices
[PippinForTheWin] ok thanks wan’t sure if another book was involed Erestel
[Pete_R] Jennie, you know the song, “Willin’?” It has the lone, “Baked by the sun, driven by the snow.” That would have changed the entwives quite a bit, I think
[laughing_gull] “some said they had never seen them; some said tehy had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and other south”
[Darkover] Maybe we aren’t meant to know. Maybe Tolkien wanted to leave it a mystery.
[Pete_R] like Bombadil
[laughing_gull] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] jennie: if ents go treeish, entwives go … like fruit trees? like the orchards they made?
[Erestel] Or the unexplained magic influence over the Dead Marshes.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they became corn and were harvested
[Demosthenes] hah
[laughing_gull] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Jane Barleycorn?
[Darkover] What Jennie suggests may not be all that far out. Sounds like Changing Woman in Navaho mythology
[Jenniearcheo] It is ever my hope to be not far out
[Xanaseb] nice, indeed.
[michael336] Thoughtful and patient, yes, but not immobile.
[Darkover] although I admit, that probably wasn’t what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote about them.
[Demosthenes] Would they change so much that the ents would not recognise them?
[Jenniearcheo] Quite possibly
[miriel] possibly
[Darkover] I suspect so
[Jenniearcheo] That’s a way to lose them, I’d guess
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they didn’t want the ents to recognize them, so they changed so they could go wherever they wanted and not be seen by the ents
[laughing_gull] I’d like to think that “their eyes would still be the eyes of our own people” as Treebeard said
[PippinForTheWin] so they wouldn’t be taken for granted again?
[Erestel] That’s a cruel way to play hard-to-get, PippinForTheWin.
[PippinForTheWin] but effective
[Jenniearcheo] More likely they were groves of apple trees . . . and then the war started . . .
[Jenniearcheo] We know what Europe looked like after WWI
[laughing_gull]
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Pete_R] from Lettrers: “I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (S. A. 3429-2441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin.”
[Jenniearcheo] The battlefields seemed to inform both the Desolation of Smaug and the Dead Marshes
[Jenniearcheo] mhm
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: /if/ the entwives had also gone “treeish” then they would have found it hard to flee. perhaps.
[Jenniearcheo] True. And Treebeard doesn’t seem to think of this
[Demosthenes] and, that pretty much nails it down to the last alliance too.
[laughing_gull] what is interesting in all this to me is that it kind of shows how Tolkien didn’t necessarily know exactly what he was writing when he started with an idea
[Jenniearcheo] But then he hadn’t seen them for some time, and might not know they’d become treeish
[Pete_R] of their love of farmingthey seemed to be activ;ey
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they gave up when they started to be attacked and wanted to de as a beautiful fruit tree instead of an ent (which aren’t as beautiful)
[PippinForTheWin] *die, not de
[Darkover] now *that* sounds unduly fatalistic, PippinFTW
[PippinForTheWin] i know
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: that’s a constant in Tolkien (and true of a lot of writers. one’s writing has the capacity to surprise even oneself.)
[PippinForTheWin] but you never really know with Tolkien
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they found the ents attractive. In a treeish sort of way
[Jenniearcheo] Otherwise nobody’d ever have made any entings
[PippinForTheWin] true, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] but maybe they didn’t see themselves as beautiful?
[Pete_R] who, my last post was decimated. What I wanted to say was, Demosthenes, I kinda doubt that the Entwives would ever become treeish, because they seemed to be very actively incvolved in farming, and maintaining their surroundings. Just MHO
[Demosthenes] that’s a fair point too
[Darkover] I’m inclined to agree with Pete_R about that.
[Demosthenes] I tend to agree
[Jenniearcheo] True. But it’s perhaps the point that the planned, cultivated “nature” was more vulnerable to outside decimation than the wild natural forest
[Jenniearcheo] Although that, too, is now under threat.
[PippinForTheWin] possibly
[Demosthenes] I have another question along a slightly different tack for people to consider.
[Pete_R] Now, Pandora is playing “Gollum’s Song” from film 2
[Darkover] ask away, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] We’ve considered how Merry and Pippin change the ents, but what about the converse?
[Pete_R] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the “water”?
[Demosthenes] yes
[Darkover] well, the ent draughts make them a lot taller, for one thing
[Demosthenes] true! too much and the hobbits will be like elendil the tall.
[Jenniearcheo] It broadens their perspective on what constitutes “people”, I’d guess
[Pete_R] I’m sure they both gained confidence, having influenced the assault on Isengard
[PippinForTheWin] i think for the first time, M&P have a chance to be apart of something really big
[laughing_gull] I feel like the ents are some of the first beings who are very mature compared to the hobbits, and yet connect with them on a personal level
[Darkover] and perhaps their involvement with the Ents made Pippin, at least, realize he and Merry weren’t just baggage, but could make a difference in the war
[PippinForTheWin] and maybe now they’re not as hasty
[Jenniearcheo] Back in the Old Forest, they considered Old Man Willow to be an evil entity. Now they might see him as a cranky old guy
[Demosthenes] Does Treebeard’s chiding them for being “hasty folk” affect their thinking?
[Pete_R] They both had their first real chance to make a strong positive contribution to the war
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Tom saw him as a person, and they thought that was part of Tom’s weirdness
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: gmta.
[Darkover] Perhaps, even as the hobbits reminded the Ents that there was a lot to M-E, the Ents made the hobbits realize there was a lot more in the world than the Shire.
[Pete_R] haha–Hennie, does OMW have a cane to shake at whippersnappers?
[Darkover] Thanks, PippinFTW
[Pete_R] Jennie
[Jenniearcheo]
[Pete_R] It probably does affect their way of thinking, Demz, to some extent
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether it helps them “grow up
[Jenniearcheo] One of many things
[PippinForTheWin] i think also after the whole ordeal with the orcs, M&P have this almost parent-like figure who teaches them about wisdom
[sunshower] and in turn they teach too
[Pete_R] The whole experience of being abducted, and then, having to convince the ents to get involves help them to grow up, I guess
[michael336] Merry and Pippin for the first time were “on their own” rather than being “tag-alongs” with Frodo and the non-Hobbits. They move from being comic relief to significan characters and eventually warriors.
[PippinForTheWin] and they’re so confused about the world but they begin to understand how it works
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s one of the great contrasts — both the orcs and the ents offer hospitality … but very different types.
[Jenniearcheo] The entdraught sounds better than the medicine
[Demosthenes] It might be guinness.
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Jenniearcheo] Guiness is good for you
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] truth.
[PippinForTheWin] Merry and Pippin are just exposed to so many new species on this adventure, they don
[PippinForTheWin] they don’t know who to trust
[Jenniearcheo] Puts bark on your chest.
[Pete_R] I vote for Watney’s Red Barrel, Demz.
[LuthienXBeren] lol
[sunshower] ruff rff
[laughing_gull] I have to leave, this has been very cool, thank you all
[Jenniearcheo] Bye laughing_gull
[laughing_gull] bye
[LuthienXBeren] baii
[Pete_R] take care, laughing_gull
[sunshower] see ya laughing_gull
[Darkover] bye, laughing_gull
[PippinForTheWin] yeah everyone, i have to go bye, and thanks for chatting with me!!
[Darkover] bye, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] But the ents don’t seem to expect anything from merry and pippin. their hospitality is like the ultimate in altruism. no strings attached?
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[LuthienXBeren] aww, bye pip
[sunshower] bye PippinForTheWin
[Demosthenes] seeya PippinForTheWin!
[Erestel] Farewell, laughing_gull and PippinForTheWin!
[PippinForTheWin] hope to see you guys next week!
[Pete_R] adios, PippinForTheWin
[Jenniearcheo] True. he offers to drop them off at the border. Seeyaa
[Jenniearcheo] Although he welcomes the news.
[Jenniearcheo] Even though he can tell they’re holding back
[Demosthenes] And Quickbeam is the same.
[Demosthenes] We haven’t spoken much about QB yet
[Darkover] Well, at one point Treebeard admonished the hobbits for telling him too much about themselves, too soon, so he can hardly be upset if they do hold something back.
[Demosthenes] He didn’t want to reveal his true name
[Demosthenes] names and power.
[Jenniearcheo] Quickbeam’s story about the rowan trees was sad, but indicated that the entwives may have been a trifle ungrateful for their efforts to please them.
[Jenniearcheo] “meh.”
[miriel] that poem is one of my favourites
[miriel] Oh Orofarne Lassemissa Carnimirie
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, is there any more said about that, at all? Does someone’s true name become a vulnerability at some point? Is there an old example?
[miriel] Oh rowan fair
[sunshower] the song between ent/entwife?
[Jenniearcheo] No, later
[Demosthenes] jennie: not that i recall. but puma might know of one.
[Jenniearcheo] When Bregalad (Quickbeam) is singing them to sleep
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] the other one I know and love
[Jenniearcheo] A lament for the fallen rowan trees
[Pete_R] The poem is one f the saddest moments in the book, fpr me. Separate question: Would the Ents have the same eventual after-death destination as men and hobbits? Or some place similar of their own, since they are not just plant-life.
[LuthienXBeren] what about the ‘old forest’? does any one believe tolkien was insinuating something there, with the entwives?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, that is a nice one. The seasonal thing. But it underscores my point about their divergent habitats
[Darkover] indeed, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] They sort of seemed to think so, Pete. West was mentioned, and reunions
[Demosthenes] The rollingness of those entwords is really neat.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, that’s what got me thinking bout this
[Pete_R] yes, rolly words are boss.
[Darkover] I’m not sure the Ents would like the Undying Lands, though, assuming they would go there. If nothing ever changes, what would the Ents/Entwives have to tend and to cultivate?
[Erestel] The only instance I can think of that would imply vulnerability in revealing true names is Turin, who took different names to avoid his doomed fate. But as it was said to him (I can’t remember who said it. Finduilas?) “Your doom lies in yourself, not in your name.”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, so . . . moot in the end
[Jenniearcheo] Although lots of folks take multiple names in ME. Elves in particular. And a few Men
[sunshower] folks, weapons, places…
[Demosthenes] They seem long-lived but not immortal? I don’t know. that’s a curly one.
[Pete_R] true, Jennie but I think that Turin was the champeen of fake names
[Jenniearcheo] mm yes. Of course, some of that is underscoring the fact that time passes and people pass and the same place gets a new name
[Jenniearcheo] lol champeen
[Jenniearcheo] How would they get across the ocean? Strap themselves together into rafts??
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[Demosthenes] wood floats
[Erestel] Sea turtles.
[Pete_R] We never heard pf an ent dying of old age. Does that mean they are like elves, that they only die if killed, or if they allow themselves to die willfully, from a sorrow?
[Darkover] “Mom, she’s touching me!”
[Jenniearcheo] Driftwood. Great.
[Darkover] That’s something I hadn’t considered, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yeah i dunno. they seem effectively immortal.
[Pete_R] Jennie, they are walking trees. Wood floats.
[Demosthenes] is treeishness like the fading of the elves?
[michael336] Ah, the power of names….the Childlike Empress to Bastian: “Say my name!” And Fantasia was recreated. (Sorry for The Neverending Story reference….)
[Darkover] Maybe becoming tree-ish is the Entish equivalent of “fading.”
[Jenniearcheo] I think it’s akin to it
[Pete_R] Yeah, Treebeard is “Eldest, which makes him thousands of years old.
[Jenniearcheo] In that we don’t see many walking trees any more, nor yet elves
[Demosthenes] But the fading wasn’t a death, more of a exhausting weariness.
[sunshower] treebeard names an elder ent?
[Darkover] Have we just about finished our discussion? Because it is getting late here, and I am hungry.
[Demosthenes] “can’t cope, off to valinor”
[Jenniearcheo] He says there were three of them left from long ago
[Jenniearcheo] But one probably got cut down by Saruman, off west aways towards (or beyond?) Isengard
[sunshower] right Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we are nearly done. did we cover the outcome of the entmoot?
[Jenniearcheo] Have some entdraught, Darkover
[Pete_R] Nuh-uh, Jennie. Once when I was driving, a tree walked right in front of my car! It wasnt a Budweiser-induced hallucination, no matter what the judge said.
[Darkover] ha, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I see . . .
[sunshower] mmm hmm
[Darkover] OMW is out to get you, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] I believe they end at the first sight of Isenard, Dems
[Pete_R] Thank you, Darkover
[Demosthenes] We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
[Jenniearcheo] So yes, they march
[sunshower] (pretty good movie scene)
[Jenniearcheo] With doom we come! With doom we come!
[Demosthenes] key:
[Demosthenes] ‘Quickly?’ said Treebeard. ‘Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected. Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea.
[Erestel] “Night lies over Isengard.”
[Demosthenes] this has not happened in this forest since the wars of sauron and the men of the sea.
[Demosthenes] Also, “wizards ought to know better”
[sunshower] were the Ents involved in that????
[Pete_R] I recently met a couple in a cafe, He noticed my copy of UT, and asked about it. We talked about the books and films, and he said he was disappointed that the trees and ents didnt show up at Helm’s Deep in the movie. I told him about the EEs, and his eyes bugged out.
[Jenniearcheo] Did the forest once stretch all the way out over those mountains?
[Darkover] Well, Treebeard was right about that. The Istari were sent to make things better, not worse.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Aw, Pete. I hope he bought a copy
[Pete_R] The guy read Tolkien, his date reads Twiilight.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Treebeard may have known more about the Istari than he let on.
[Pete_R] me too, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I read both, Pete. Nyah
[Darkover] He was probably there when they arrived, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Also Gabaldon, Pratchett, and Patrick O’Brian
[sunshower] I think this chapter says he was, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Though switching around can strip your mental gears
[Pete_R] sunshower, I would guess that theor involvement was tp flee from it. fpr their lives
[Demosthenes] Oh, isn’t there a parallel with macbeth here too?
[Demosthenes] or am i mistaken?
[Erestel] How so?
[Pete_R] I’m sure, Dem’s, re: Istari
[Darkover] Yeah, it doesn’t immediately leap to mind
[Demosthenes] trees marching on … something?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, M&P weren’t the only ones holding some stuff back
[Pete_R] Jennie, you’re an under-nerd :-p
[Jenniearcheo] An under nerd?
[sunshower] narnia trees marched!
[sunshower]
[Darkover] Oh, yes, macbeth couldn’t fall until a certain forest moved
[Demosthenes] birnam wood
[Pete_R] Yes, Darkover, Treebeard would have been in ME fr many many many years before the wizards came
[Darkover] and the enemy’s men used the trees of that forest as camoflauge (sp?) so it looked as if the forest was moving
[michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Darkover] well, a marching forest would be really cool, provided it wasn’t marching on *you*
[Pete_R] uber-nerd for reading Tolkien and Twilight
[Demosthenes] Macbeth shall never vanquished be until
[Demosthenes] Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill
[Demosthenes] Shall come against him.
[Erestel] I remember something like that. Tolkien saw Macbeth, and he was disappointed when it turned out the walking forest was men with leaves in their hats, or something like that. I’m probably getting some details wrong.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, Uber. I see.
[Jenniearcheo] I’ve heard that too, about the wood
[Demosthenes] michael336: i read that also. and here we literally have a forest marching against its opressor. Don’t mess with nature is the lesson.
[Pete_R] By Macbeth, Dems, are you referring to the Burnham (sp?) Wood?
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . don’t mess with wild untouched still strong nature. Cultivated nature is more vulnerable
[michael336] There
[Demosthenes] Yes pete.
[michael336] There’s a doctoral thesis for you: The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien’s rewriting of Shakespeare.
[Jenniearcheo] Seek ye out Mythgard Institute, michael336. They offer a Masters
[Demosthenes] Interesting little parallel.
[Demosthenes] Hooom, any final points?
[Pete_R] Did I read the Tolkien was disappointed that he never got to see the woods move in the play, so he wrote bout the Ents? Or was it about PJ, making the films?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Hooom
[Darkover] No, I think that’s about it
[Darkover] This has been interesting, as usual
[michael336] Jennie, I would LOVE to get a master’s from there! I’m waiting until they have accreditation.
[Demosthenes] pete: no, that is the story i’ve heard too. michael336 mentioned hearing it also.
[Erestel] I only remembered the parallel between the Witch-king and Macbeth where no living man and no man of woman born could slay them, respectively, and both were slain by loopholes (a woman and a man birthed via C-section).
[Pete_R] So, we’re at The Ent…The End, I mean?
[Demosthenes] Sorry it was a bit choppy at the start. I took a little while to wake up.
[Jenniearcheo] They say that by the time anyone has the requirements met, they’ll have accreditation. I’m only sorry I can’t afford the pittance yet
[Pete_R] okay, Demz. I am such a lousy typist that I miss a lot of posts, with my eyes glued to the keyboard
[Demosthenes] humph
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: [09:27] [michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Pete_R] K, thx.
[Demosthenes] Okay, next weekend. Earendil and Elwing?
[Darkover] Sounds good. See you all then.
[Jenniearcheo] Byee
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Demosthenes] thanks to everyone for a great chat.
Session Close: Sun Apr 21 09:43:08 2013

Next weekend, we’ll be discussing the second of the three great unions of elves and humans: Idril and Tuor.

Session Start: Sun Apr 07 07:17:43 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire

[Demosthenes] okay. let’s begin? others can catch up.
[Puma] well….to start with.in general i consider this to be pippins chapter….but also a good look at orc culture
[Demosthenes] I’ve always thought that as much as the chapter is about Merry and Pippin, it’s the orcs who are kinda the stars here?
[Demosthenes] puma: i guess those two points are related
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] I wonder why the orcs really come through
[Susanita] hey pete
[Demosthenes] . ‘Lie quiet, or I’ll tickle you with this,’ he hissed. ‘Don’t draw attention to yourself, or I may forget my orders. Curse the Isengarders! Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai’:
[Puma] the 3 groups of orcs came for various reasons
[lini_b] pippin shows himself to be a lot more than just a frivolous kid on a lark
[Pete_away] Hoy, Susanita, how are you?
[Susanita] easy for you to say
[Demosthenes] There’s a real … life to them?
[Jenniearcheo] How much orc speech do we get? Is this it in the book?
[Demosthenes] not a lot jennie
[miriel] love the use of untranslated black speech
[Puma] this was jrr’s 1st real attemp to show orc culture
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from what’s on the ring, of course
[Demosthenes] there’s also “snaga” meaning slave
[Demosthenes] that’s later in ROTK
[Jenniearcheo] The fact that the apparent tribes couldn’t speak each other’s language was interesting
[Erestel] Gandalf reveals that “Ghash” is “fire” in the Black Speech, but that’s all I know.
[miriel] it is used in several places, dems
[Puma] no.snaga is in this chapter also
[miriel] snaga
[Darkover] Greetings, all! Sorry to be late.
[Demosthenes] oh, it is?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] skai is, i think, a name.
[miriel] I know, because I listed it as a name by mistake
[Darkover] Hiya, Jennie!
[miriel] Darkover
[Demosthenes] this is the final translation of that phrase: “Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth.
[Demosthenes] Dung-heap. Skai!”.
[miriel] puma
[miriel] Skai! might be a curse
[Demosthenes] (from parma eldalamberon 17)
[Puma] and jrr said he cleaned up the translation
[Darkover] “Snaga” isn’t exactly a name, as I recall, I think it meant “slave,” and was a form of address from a more powerful orc to a weaker.
[Puma] correct
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think i read that via AFT/RABT too
[miriel] indeed, I lost two “named” characteres when I discovered it
[Demosthenes] probably in their FAQ
[Puma] also.in lotr jrr gives many orcs names….and they interact….he had never done that be4
[Jenniearcheo] Orcs have an FAQ?
[Elemmire]
[Erestel] “I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ‘ghash’: that is ‘fire’.” Spoken by Gandalf after he left the Chamber of Mazarbul before the Balrog arrived.
[Elemmire] there isn’t really that much Black Speech in lotr
[Elemmire] translated
[Darkover] Saruman also apparently got his nickname “Sharkey,” from the Orcish “sharku,” “old man.”
[Demosthenes] jennie is right. orcs are really tribal, and this shows through in the language. I guess Tolkien would have thought that a very natural way that such tribalness would have exhibited itself.
[Demosthenes] slang … dialest variations
[Demosthenes] dialect*
[Demosthenes] and having to converse through common
[Puma] yes.they needed westron to talk tribe to tribe
[Demosthenes] to understand each other
[Demosthenes] a kind of lingua franca
[Elemmire] hmm, id forgotten that. its an interesting point
[Susanita] that was interesting to me
[Darkover] Well, also, Sam had to be able to understand them–in a later chapter–and he was able to do so because the orcs were speaking a form of the Common Tongue
[Darkover] because so many different tribes were present
[Puma] well……sam had the ring then
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! it makes it easier for both tolkien and us too. at a mechanical level.
[Puma] so different case
[Darkover] Right, the reader needed to understand them, too!
[miriel] tolkien never clearly states it, though, that it is just the ring, and not common
[Puma] jrr at times did not care if we understood
[Demosthenes] Do you guys agree that Tolkien’s uruks — as we see them here — are very lively and vivid?
[Jenniearcheo] The ring is why Bilbo can understand the spiders, yes?
[Darkover] I certainly agree, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] They’re certainly tough. Tougher than the smaller orcs they see as “maggots”
[Darkover] In this chapter, for the first time IMO, they seem like people–ugly, mean, vicious, debased people, but still people
[Puma] only the isengard uruks…although grishnakh was likely a mordor uruk
[miriel] I guess so, Jenniearcheo. But then, what about Shelob?
[Jenniearcheo] they do value the Moria orcs’ being able to see in the dark, though
[Susanita] and the bit about running in daylight
[Jenniearcheo] She wasn’t chatty
[Demosthenes] Why? Is it something in the prose? is it because the whole chapter is a power-play between the orc factions? is it something else?
[miriel] lol jennie
[Susanita] it sinks in how much Saruman means to be a usurper
[Puma] it is that….and we see pippin is clever….and smart…b4 that he had not been much use
[Darkover] Maybe it is because they *do* seem to be part of tribes, to have some sense–at least, among the Uruks–of duty, and they show a lot of emotion
[miriel] I think he does a great work of shoving how split and divided and unloyal the “dark side” is
[Darkover] all that seems to make them more like people, rather than cardboard villains
[Darkover] That too, Miriel, you’re quite right
[Demosthenes] miriel: it is very different to the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Underscored, miriel, by the two in Mordor who were going to “go someplace quiet and set up” something, but then fell to fighting
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. These Orcs may seem like people, but that doesn’t mean they are decent or nice people.
[Demosthenes] it reminds me of a line from one of Mel Brooks’ movies “all for one, and each man for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] Not very nice, at all, precious
[Puma] orc culture is a debased one
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes, very true
[Demosthenes] (that’s pretty much orcs to a T)
[Elemmire] yep
[Darkover] Quite so, Puma–and indeed, they only exist because long ago, they were debased Elves–and maybe Men
[Demosthenes] puma: on the other hand, it also makes me think of Gandalf’s line: “for myself, i pity even his [Sauron's] slaves”
[Demosthenes] and i think Gandalf meant orcs as well there
[Puma] but aragorn was wrong on 1 guess….he did not think orcs would be told of ring….but it seems ugluk and grishnakh knew of it
[Darkover] I can kind of understand Gandalf’s attitude, Demosthenes. Orcs never had much choice to be other than what they were.
[Elemmire] yep. you do kinda feel sorry for the orcs being bulllied
[Demosthenes] Because I think here we see simultaneously that the orcs have something .. .and yet nothing at the same time.
[Asmodean] they did not know of the ring i think
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be defeated.
[Susanita] they knew of SOMETHING
[Asmodean] yeah
[Susanita] not necessarily the Ring
[Darkover] Interesting observation, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yep
[Puma] the war is won with pity….gandalf is the embodiment of that
[Darkover] I don’t feel too sorry for the bullied orcs, Elemmire, because they would unhesitatingly bully others if they could.
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin tests Grishnakh and it does seem he recognizes “Gollum” and “precious”
[Demosthenes] They have energy … they have a great lust for life … you see it in how they interact .. yet they are unable to do anything positive with it.
[Demosthenes] maybe
[miriel] indeed, so he must have had info
[Darkover] The war is won with courage, determination, and a certain amount of fighting and killing, too, Puma. Let’s not forget *that.*
[Elemmire] fair enough. but we dont like being bullied
[Puma] but pity was the key
[Jessy] I heard somewhere, though haven’t read the original, that in one of his letters, Tolkien expressed an interest in making the orcs less doomed to evil
[Elemmire] it isn’t really the orcs fault
[Puma] well…..he wrote many versions of orc origins
[Jenniearcheo] It seems that the orcs have little in the way of culture. In social rules, beyond what the boss orders
[Darkover] That sounds like Tolkien, Jessy, because as a devout Catholic, he would have had problems believing anyone was bad from the very beginning
[Darkover] That sounds about right, jennie
[Puma] and they were an example of morgoths power….jrr said maybe the worst of morgoths perversions
[Erestel] That belief is specifically stated by Elrond as well, Darkover. Something along the lines of “Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think i’d agree with that. they make food and drink of a sort. they make crude weapons. do they make songs? do they write? what is orc downtime?
[Darkover] Right, Erestel
[Elemmire] yep jennie. except when there are too msny bosses
[Puma] i doubt that they write
[Puma] but they do sing
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the orcs write, or make any songs worth listening to
[Darkover] People that debased don’t usually have a lot of creativity
[Elemmire] the orcs are less complex than the goblins. we know that they are good at making things
[Erestel] Down, down, to Goblin Town! You go, my lad!
[Demosthenes] maybe they make dubstep
[miriel] they could write curses and stuff
[Darkover] unless it comes to different methods of killing and torture
[miriel] but books, unlikely
[Puma] orcs=goblins….they are the same thing
[Jenniearcheo] Well, the goblins in The Hobbit can, on occasion, be persuaded to sing
[Susanita] orc singing like vogon poetry?
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] But it’s all “Crack snap the black crack” sort of thing
[Darkover] Not quite, I think, Puma. I could be wrong, but
[Jessy] Susanita: love it!
[Jenniearcheo] Singing about how nice it’ll be to torture their victims
[Puma] quite Darkover
[miriel] LoL Susanita
[Elemmire] lots of people do that jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh true. that had a kind of charm … but i maintain that the writer of the hobbit is an unreliable narrator prone to exaggeration.
[Darkover] I always got the impression goblins were weaker, more inclined to fear daylight, less hardy and not as good at fighting, as orcs.
[Puma] goblin is the hobbit word for orc
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Darkover] Maybe goblins are descended from Men, and orcs from Elves. Just a thought
[Puma] noooooooo
[Elemmire] well, the goblins in the hobbit are different
[Demosthenes] and the account of the hobbit is not entirely to be trusted as a result
[Puma] no they are not
[Elemmire] cos they are skilled
[Elemmire] and can make stuff
[Jenniearcheo] I think goblins are basically orcs, but the ones from “the north” were from caverns and better at seeing in the dark.
[Erestel] Goblins and orcs are the same. Azog is called a goblin in The Hobbit and a great orc in The Lord of the Rings. Orcs come in many shapes and sizes, though.
[Puma] but i am just going by what jrr himself said….you dont have to believe jrr if you dont want to
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Elemmire] a kind of orc then
[Jenniearcheo] He contradicts himself from time to time. Humans are allowed this luxury
[Elfriend] I always thought that Goblins were a weaker, perhaps younger form of Orc.
[Elemmire] ?
[lini_b] me too Elfriend
[miriel] weaker, yes, but younger? I do not know
[Susanita] oh hey Elfriend
[Puma] the only truely superior orcs in jrr were baldogs
[Elfriend] Hello
[Demosthenes] I also wonder at the great endurance of the orcs. The Three Hunters as we saw travelled 130 miles in four days. That’s an effort worthy of a roman legionary. These orcs go farther — much farther in the same time.
[Elemmire] baldogs?
[Jessy] Jenniearcheo: in Tolkien, aren’t contradictions just another word for re-write?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did a deal of ret-conning
[Darkover] If you mean “balrogs,” Puma, they weren’t orcs at all, but some kind of demon
[Erestel] I dunno about baldogs. Balrogs were corrupt Maia (lesser gods), not orcs.
[Elemmire] werent balrogs maia?
[Puma] baldogs….minor maia in orc form
[Elfriend] Food chain Goblins-Orcs-Uruk Hai
[Puma] balrogs are not baldogs
[Jenniearcheo] I wouldn’t get a bald dog. Unless I hated pet hair
[Darkover] Well, as detailed as Tolkien’s writings were, it seems improbable he wouldn’t make the occasional error
[Elemmire] what are baldongs
[Elemmire] baldogs
[Susanita] chihuahuas are bald
[Elemmire] even
[Elemmire] lol susa
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, but they just yap
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway.
[Susanita] they want Taco Bell
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . Goblins
[Puma] and orcs were all orcs….they varied in size and strenght
[Puma] uruk-hai is translated orc people
[Jenniearcheo] So the Uruks overtake the Mordor orcs on the run
[Elemmire] theyre stronger
[Elemmire] and can run in daylight
[Darkover] and don’t fear daylight
[Jenniearcheo] What was I reading? Some of the Mordor orcs run off and then come back?
[Puma] the mordor orc did not do well in the sun.as with many orcs
[Susanita] and there were Orcs from Moria too?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[Demosthenes] Three groups of orcs
[Susanita] Orcapalooza
[Demosthenes] three factions
[Puma] i meant the moria orcs
[Jenniearcheo] It sounded like the Moria orcs didn’t like the idea of running in the daylight, but Ugluk wasn’t taking a vote
[Elemmire] nope
[Demosthenes] they wilt
[Puma] the uruks did not like the sun either….but they could tolerate it
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin really comes into his own in this chapter. For the first time.
[Demosthenes] a bit like sunflowers
[Susanita] hi Baumbart
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[Darkover] Hello, Baumbart
[Elemmire] hmm. this is where i start to like Pippin
[Jenniearcheo] hello Baumbart
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah … which is interesting considering he has his own self-doubt at the start of the chapter
[Demosthenes] let me find the quote
[Darkover] Pippin does seem to become a real member of the Fellowship in this chapter
[Demosthenes] He could not answer the questions. He felt cold and sick. ‘I wish Gandalf had never persuaded Elrond to let us come,’ he thought. ‘What good have I been? Just a nuisance: a passenger, a piece of luggage. And now I have been stolen and I am just a piece of luggage for the Orcs.
[Demosthenes] Bold hard halfling, or piece of luggage?
[Puma] other than pippins affability we have not seen his talents b4
[Elemmire] yeah. but he’s more useful that merry
[miriel] maybe that very insight is what makes him likeable
[Demosthenes] then this:
[Darkover] I think Pippin himself didn’t know he had talents, until this quest
[Demosthenes] I hope Strider or someone will come and claim us! But ought I to hope for it? Won’t that throw out all the plans? I wish I could get free!’
[Elemmire] merry is probably the least develpoed hobbit
[miriel] before it, he is just annoying
[Demosthenes]  But ought I to hope for it?
[Darkover] That is a very mature thought on Pippin’s part
[Elemmire] he appreciates how important the ring quest is
[miriel] indeed, very self-sacrificing there
[Puma] merry was out cold….he had been injured fighting…pippin had not fought orcs at amon hen
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. He also takes the initiative a couple of times
[Jenniearcheo] With the pin, the hand binding, the fleeing
[lini_b] it’s no longer just a silly adventure – he starts to grow up
[Jenniearcheo] And, of course, the lembas
[Elemmire] yep
[Demosthenes] jennie: is that why he takes the initiative do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] I think for the first time he had no leader
[Demosthenes] this realisation about the importance of the quest?
[Jenniearcheo] And even Merry was out cold. He was forced to think on his feet, on his own, perhaps for the first time ever
[Jessy] When Pippin runs out to drop his leaf broach, it was brave, but do you think it useful?
[Elemmire] he realises that he probably has to get out of this himself
[Jenniearcheo] He was a rich kid, a bit spoilt. Probably with servants his whole life
[Pete_away] Pippin? This was the first time that he wasn’t subservient to everyone else
[Darkover] It turned out that it was, Jessy, and it was something to do, so he did it
[Puma] at teh beginning of the chapter….we get out last live glimpse of boromir….in his finest moment….and the orcs say…they were told to kill all but halflings….but due to boromir….they fled b4 other help arrived…not giving orcs chance to search out more
[Darkover] I think “subservient” is a bit harsh, Pete. Maybe as the youngest, Pip was just used to letting others lead the way.
[Darkover] And now Pippin had to rely on himself, so he showed some initiative
[Jessy] But it only shows that the hobbits were still alive. Aragorn would have followed them either way.
[Puma] so we saw for the last time….how important boromir was
[Demosthenes] Or as Aragorn speculated, do they think they have their prey?
[Demosthenes] oh .. it’s hobbits. let’s went.
* Pete_away is now known as Pete-DOH
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin could tell that their footprints were being trampled by . . . iron? shoes
[Puma] yes.iron shoes
[Darkover] That probably had a lot to do with it, Demosthenes. Apparently no one told them how *many* halflings there were.
[Jenniearcheo] ty
[Puma] oh.i think they knew
[Demosthenes] ‘Orders.’ said a third voice in a deep growl. ‘Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That’s my orders.’
[Puma] there were orc spies all along the anduin
[miriel] the orcs must be extremely well trained if they can run with iron shoes
[Jenniearcheo] These were the only hobbits they found
[Darkover] If they knew, puma, why wasn’t anyone saying; “We only have two, better find where the other two went”
[Puma] the orcs knew how many were in the fellowship
[miriel] very simple orders, do you think it is due to lack of language-knowledge, or lack of IQ?
[lini_b] they’re strong not bright
[Puma] because they had paid such a great price in death from boromir
[Asmodean] they couldn’t have known
[Puma] boromir killed more than 20
[Darkover] Again, did they? And even if they knew how many people were in the fellowship, that doesn’t mean the orcs knew how many were hobbits.
* Asmodean is now known as lasak
[Demosthenes] They have street-smarts at least
[Elemmire] Piipin is so worried that the men of Rohan won’t know they are hobbits. So, how do the orcs/uruk-hai know?
[Puma] so after they paid the death price.they assumed!!!!!!
[Puma] and we all know what happens when you assume
[Pete-DOH] The must have hear from Saruman, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] If they knew there were two missing hobbits, wouldn’t they have sent a squad to search for them?
[Darkover] The orcs knew halflings when they saw them, and indeed had specific orders about them.
* lorienslady is now known as lori_dinner
[Elfriend] Being an Orc, I’d imagine one would learn quickly
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] I didn’t think the Rohirrim even saw the halflings.
[Puma] its a complex point
[Darkover] The Rohirrim were killing right and left, and didn’t know about the prisoners. It would have been easy for the hobbits to be killed by mistake, Elmmire
[Pete-DOH] No, Dems, it was dark, rght?
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire
[Puma] well.not so easy………the cloaks
[Demosthenes] dark, and they had those lorien cloaks to boot.
[lini_b] the rohirrim didnt believe the legends of halflings
[Jenniearcheo] The hobbits were in the woods by the time the rohirrim attacked
[Puma] m and p ran right up to the orcs b4 they were seen
[Pete-DOH] By a horse with great eyesight avoided pippin
[Jenniearcheo] or some sense
[Pete-DOH] Remember Jennie that Pippin almost got stomped on
[Demosthenes] Horses will try to avoid running over ppl iirc.
[Demosthenes] So that makes sense.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, but the rider didn’t see him
[Puma] this was something the movies never showed….how many times the cloaks worked for the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Horses, perhaps, have an innate sense
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the black gate
[Pete-DOH] Right, Puma, just once in the ee of ROTK
[Demosthenes] i like this:
[Puma] that 1 time
[Demosthenes] ‘Hullo, Pippin!’ he said. ‘So you’ve come on this little expedition, too? Where do we get bed and breakfast?’
[Pete-DOH] Merry was great
[Darkover] Pippin himself was thinking that he and Merry might be killed, before the attackers of the orcs knew they were there.
[Puma] shows even in the worst conditions….merry has a good attitude
[Jenniearcheo] Merry with a brown scar all his days
[Demosthenes] very droll; very dry humour.
[Pete-DOH] movie aside–Dom and Billy were casting genius
[Jessy] Demosthenes: That’s one of my favorite lines in the whole book!
[Susanita] they didn’t have their guide book to B&Bs in Middle Earth
[Puma] now.dom and billy look nothing like hobbits
[Jenniearcheo] They used peach juice and cola syrup for the orc draught. It made Dom gag
[Darkover] And Pippin wished he had paid better attention at Rivendell, but business had always seemed to be in more capable hands. Another sign that he is growing up, coming into his own.
[Pete-DOH] yummy
[Darkover] Wouldn’t it make *you* gag, Jennie?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Darkover
[Puma] but merry had studied the maps
[lini_b] but merry was paying attention
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Very likely
[Jenniearcheo] But Merry was inconveniently unconscious
[Puma] so point is.they are better together than separate….
[Elemmire] pippin really does start to grow up in this chapter
[Puma] only later when they have grown can they operate apart
[Jenniearcheo] Generally true
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gotta look out for himself now. no-one’s going to hold his hand for him.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s almost as if Pippin wakes up in this chapter. As though he’s been dozing until now
[Demosthenes] well, the orcs kinda do for a bit, but that’s not at all pleasant.
[PippinForTheWin] like he realizes now what hes gotten himself in to
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well phrased
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: it’s not a hobbit walking party.
[Elfriend] Again I hear Elronds words “we will trust to a friendship rather than great wisdom.”
[Elemmire] hmm-merry and pip need their frienship
[Elemmire] friendship
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: that’s a good thought.
[Elemmire] even
[Darkover] Friendship is a big part of LotR
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] it is
[PippinForTheWin] its what lotr is all about
[Demosthenes] notice that pippin feels reassured when he sees merry is with him.
[Demosthenes] in a “we’re all in this together” kind of way
[PippinForTheWin] if frodo and sam werent friends, what ould happen?
[Elemmire] they are better together
[Elemmire] both pairs of them
[Puma] sam was frodos servant
[Jenniearcheo] Better together, and definitely better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] better than orc drink?
[PippinForTheWin] when in the movie pippin leaves with gandalf to go to minas tirith you feel the pain
[Elemmire] anyone’s better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] i wonder what the orc drink was
[Jenniearcheo] More whoelsome
[Jenniearcheo] Best not to know
[Demosthenes] cheap gin? fosters?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[lini_b] lol Demosthenes
[Elemmire] something unpleasant
[Pete-DOH] dirty water, alcohol, and prune juice
[Demosthenes] some sort of moonshine i guess
[Puma] an energy drink….they sell them all over now
[Elemmire] lol
[Demosthenes] lol
[Darkover] but effective, whatever it was
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that Merry was going to try to drink from the River but Pippin was in charge and said, “Not here, the banks are too steep. Forward now!”
[Elfriend] All this time they have been selling the UK Orc beer.. how very clever of them.
[Pete-DOH] yes, Jennie, role reversal
[lini_b] i wouldn’t mind a bit – my house is a mess i need energy
[Jenniearcheo] At least for now
[Demosthenes] Seizing him roughly Uglúk pulled him into a sitting position, and tore the bandage off his head. Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box. Merry cried out and struggled wildly.
[Demosthenes] The Orcs clapped and hooted. ‘Can’t take his medicine,’ they jeered. ‘Doesn’t know what’s good for him. Ai! We shall have some fun later.’
[Elemmire] isn’t pip the youngest of all the hobbits?
[Puma] but then they will switch and merry will be in charge
[Demosthenes] same with the orc medicine.
[Darkover] He is, Elemmire
[Puma] yes.pip is youngest
[PippinForTheWin] yeah hes the youngest
[Darkover] Hardly more than a boy by hobbit standards
[PippinForTheWin] the most innocent
[Elemmire] so he really is doing well
[Erestel] Yup, the youngest of the four. He hadn’t come of age when he joined the group.
[Darkover] I would say so. He’s not quite the foolish hobbit he was portrayed as in the movies.
[Elemmire] nope
[Puma] but remember…….merry and pippin were form the 2 great power wielding shire families….as close to royalty as shire has
[Puma] so not ordinary hobbits
[Pete-DOH] Pippin has only one real bonehead move left, right? The palantir
[Jenniearcheo] Billy said he felt Pippin didn’t feel “part of the story” until the Palantir incident
[Demosthenes] I noted that even Pippin didn’t really know why he and merry had run off at Parth Galen.
[Elemmire] yep, i can see that
[Darkover] Doesn’t mean they would necessarily have risen to the occasion, Puma. Birth isn’t everything, even in M-E
[Puma] billie was wrong as usual
[Demosthenes] they just … did.
[Jenniearcheo] I noticed that, Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting
[Demosthenes] a bit like Boromir’s madness
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think he was wrong, Puma
[Elemmire] no me neither puma
[Demosthenes] is there a link?
[Demosthenes] or maybe not?
[Jenniearcheo] Do you attribute that to . . . Illuvatar?
[Demosthenes] Of course: he and Merry had run off into the woods. What had come over them? Why had they dashed off like that, taking no notice of old Strider?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed to be off by themselves, because they needed to be captured to get the Ents moving
[Puma] they were better educated and more worldly than most hobits…they had a better chance
[Erestel] It was the will of the Force.
[PippinForTheWin] illuvatar? we’re entering silmarillion territory now
[Puma] of course there is free will
[Elemmire] or panic
[Jenniearcheo] If we’re supposing that there’s an unseen hand at work, it’s either Illuvatar or Sauron. I’d rather hope it were the former
[Demosthenes] panicatthedisc…errr..greensward
[Darkover] Erestel, I think JRR would wince at providence/God being referred to as “the Force”
[Pete-DOH] Iluvatar, or the Valar, maybe
[laughing_gull] I was gonna say, I think irrational reasons, but also for plot reasons
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr……but not in this instance
[Jenniearcheo] Same force that led Frodo to the chair
[Pete-DOH] Darkover, you don’t think the professor would like Star Wars?
[Elemmire] where are the valar active in lotr ouma?
[Elemmire] puma
[Elemmire] even
[Demosthenes] More seriously, Aragorn said that a force was slowing them and implied it was Saruman. Maybe a similar influence was working on the Fellowship at Parth Galen?
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s reaching.
[PippinForTheWin] not the valar, but the Maiar maybe?
[Puma] that is another convo.but many times
[Erestel] Yeah, he probably would. At least Iluvatar isn’t associated with medichlorians.
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t, Pete. I think Tolkien would find good and evil too muddled in Star Wars for his beliefs.
[Elemmire] midi
[Darkover] Just my opinion.
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn assumed that things were “ill” because he didn’t realize their neccessity
[Pete-DOH] Areed, Darkover. Don’t think he would even consider atching it
[Puma] good and evil were very muddled in jrr
[Elemmire] really puma
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Puma?
[Puma] elves had done great evils
[Darkover] It doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
[PippinForTheWin] and great goods
[laughing_gull] I don’t think that makes good and evil muddles
[laughing_gull] *muddled
[Jenniearcheo] elficide
[PippinForTheWin] every race has had some instance of good and evil
[laughing_gull] Humans do good and evil too, in all the great stories
[Elemmire] that was silmarillion though.
[Darkover] Elves made big mistakes, Puma, as did other races, but that isn’t the same as good and evil being muddled.
[Puma] good and evil are not black and white in lotr….it is way deeper than that
[Elemmire] good and evil are always grey
[Darkover] And in LotR, Aragorn points out that good and evil are not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves.
[PippinForTheWin] sometimes its obvious, but the reasons why go very deep
[Pete-DOH] Very little signs of good in the orcs, PippinForTheWin, but there is a trace
[Jenniearcheo] Good and evil are cultural constructs, but . . ./anthropologist
[Elemmire] like? pete
[Puma] i am well aware of what aragorn said
[lini_b] like tryig to heal merrys wound Elemmire
[Darkover] Indeed, a lot of readers complain that Tolkien’s writings show right and wrong, good and evil, as being too black and white.
[Puma] maybe a better word would have been morality
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I’m not sure that was a charitable act
[Elemmire] wasnt that just practicality though pete
[Darkover] Well, don’t be offended. You didn’t act like it, Puma
[Demosthenes] Pete-DOH: is that act derived from utility?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed Merry running
[Pete-DOH] The two orcs in ordor who talked about going off together to set up their own operation. A tiny bit of camaraderie, Elemmire, but it didn’t last long.
[laughing_gull] I agree with Jennie
[PippinForTheWin] the instances themselves are black and white. but the real reasons, the real meanings behind some actions go really deep
[Puma] readers who say good and evil are black and white in jrr….have only seen the surface….and have not looked at the words
[Pete-DOH] Dems, yu talkong about the two orcs? Yes, to a large degree
[Erestel] The Silmarillion has many more grey characters. Turin, Maedhros, Maeglin, etc.
[Demosthenes] pete: yah. they do things to gain something … not through selflessness.
[Elemmire] feanor erestel
[Elemmire] v grey
[Puma] all members of the fellowship have grey areas….
[Puma] and if that were topic we could discuss it
[Demosthenes] Which kinda relates to my earlier point that the orcs have a great lust for life … and never do much that’s positive with it.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, not much of a culture
[Darkover] In this chapter, Grishnakh threatened to rat out his fellow orcs. Typical bad behavior.
[Puma] morgoth designed orcs that way
[Pete-DOH] True, Dems, that’s why I said a very little example–just of two orcs, actually talking about working together. That’s all I got.
[Darkover] Not much of a culture, Jennie, because orcs belong to a dog-eat-dog society
[PippinForTheWin] and i guess orcs are pretty loyal to sauron?
[Elemmire] v true Demosthenes
[Puma] not really
[Jenniearcheo] However, it’s possible that they simply felt that they’d prefer a nice boss-free life, and it would be mutually beneficial
[laughing_gull] I think they are enslaved to sauron?
[Darkover] out of fear, I imagine, PippinFTW
[Puma] orcs only have 1 master.morgoth
[PippinForTheWin] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] So we have a contrast: the orcs scarmbling over each other to get to the top of the pile … and merry and pippin working together to achieve more than their individual sum.
[Elemmire] teamwork!
[Elemmire] yay
[Darkover] Who at the time of LotR, is in the Void, puma. Some orcs reported to Saruman, some to Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting. Yes
[Demosthenes] together they are greater than the sum of their individual parts
[Jenniearcheo] And end up winning
[Elemmire] you get that a lot Demosthenes
[Puma] but none were totally loyal to either darkover
[Darkover] Right, demosthenes. Orcs, being bad, are incapable of cooperating with each other for selfless reasons.
[PippinForTheWin] once again shows how friendship prevails
[Jenniearcheo] The Rohirrim are better at teamwork, too
[Elemmire] most people are
[Jenniearcheo] the only time the orcs rally is at the end, with a wedge. But they get run down because there are now too few
[Darkover] I’m not sure orcs were ever *totally* loyal to anyone, Puma–and being punished if they weren’t had a lot to do with their loyalty
[Demosthenes] Orc teamwork occurs only vias a leader ruling through fear
[Elemmire] yup
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “subservient” rather than “loyal”
[Demosthenes] cf: ugluk removing heads
[Elfriend] I think there is an innocence to Hobbits, especially in the fellowship that helps them make it through nigh insurmountable hurdles.
[Demosthenes] and it seems a temporary alliance at best.
[Darkover] Although you must admit, Ugluk’s form of discipline is effective!
[Elemmire] yep darkover but it wont last
[Jenniearcheo] To a point
[Demosthenes] reminds me of the orc babysitter demotivator
[Darkover] Elfriend, I agree. IMO, Hobbits are the most cooperative of all the peoples of M-e
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] That was a great photo
[Pete-DOH] eliminate your enemies, so you wont have enemies
[Darkover] But then, I believe, Pete, the orcs would just fall on each other.
[Demosthenes] i have a different question that we probably ought to consider:
[Elemmire] ok
[Demosthenes] How much does Grishnakh know exactly?
[Pete-DOH] or high-tail it out of there as soon as they can, like they did when Sauron fell, darkover
[Elemmire] lots. nothing.
[Elfriend] Orc Cheiftains use lash and force to achieve goals, Hobbits use friendship.
[Darkover] Hmm, never thought about that before, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (about the fellowship and the in particular the Ring)
[lini_b] mote than ugluk imo
[PippinForTheWin] i think that hobbits are so cooperative because they havent really been exposed to much of middle earth besides the shire
[Elemmire] its hard to know
[Pete-DOH] we don’t know, Dems–the “gollum, gollum” incident is confusing
[PippinForTheWin] they have no enemies
[Jenniearcheo] wb ll
[Elemmire] he seems to get pippins hints about gollum and precious
[Elfriend] That’s an interesting point.
[Demosthenes] i mean, what merry and pippin do is inspired, but is Grishnakh just guessing?
[Pete-DOH] wb lorienslady. Did you have a green smoothie with dinner?
[Jenniearcheo] He does seem to be groping them to see if they have something
[Elfriend] Not being exposed to the world of the big folk, not exposed to corruption etc.
[Jenniearcheo] And the words “Gollum” and “precious” bring him up short
[Darkover] I think he probably had a lot of info, but was unsure about what it all meant. Grishnakh struck me as the type who listens at keyholes.
[Susanita] yes, Darkover
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[lini_b] yes Darkover
[Demosthenes] The thought came suddenly into Pippin’s mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: ‘Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He’s looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.’
[Darkover] Thanks, Susanita and Elemmire, and lini_b
[Demosthenes] pippin thinks he knows about the ring
[Pete-DOH] The orcs were told to bring the hobbits back aive, without spoiling them. So Grishnakh knew they might have been holding *something* big
[Jenniearcheo] Made his fingers twitch and he said, “Oh, ho!”
[Darkover] Right, Pete and Demosthenes. He just probably didn’t know specifically what it was, i.e., a Ring
[lorienslady] no Pete not today lol
[PippinForTheWin] right
[Pete-DOH] awwww, too bad
[Jenniearcheo] But he’s a mordor orc, so he may have heard that Gollum had whatever it was.
[Demosthenes] If the Ring wasn’t common knowledge among even the Wise, then why would an orc know?
[Elemmire] maybe, the words gollum and precious only stop him because he doesn’t want the hobbits to realise what he is up to. hes lookking for something but doesn’t know what.
[Demosthenes] that being said, grishnakh is a mordor orc as you point out jennie
[Puma] he knew
[Jenniearcheo] He may not have known “ring”, but that there was “something” that Gollum had been tortured over
[Demosthenes] maybe he’s one of lugburz’s special spies.
[Pete-DOH] So tht “Gollum Gollum” incident was a red herring, or something that Tolkien put there without fleshing it out?
[lini_b] gollum had been hanging around mordor lots and they may have run across each other
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’s a leader amongst the mordor orc team
[Elemmire] yes lini_b
[Darkover] Is it possible Pippin’s lines about “gollum” and “my precious,” meant something to Grishnakh, because he was one of the orcs who tortured Gollum in Mordor?
[Demosthenes] lini: possible! maybe groshnakh came from the tower itself even?
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[Pete_R] hmmm, maybe Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yeah i wonder
[Puma] grishnakh had reported to a nazgul at river….then ran with group to rejoin
[Demosthenes] “four fingers only has the black hand but they are enough”
[Puma] he knew about the ring
[Elemmire] this is interesting
[Jenniearcheo] True. He held the nazgul in more awe than the Uruks did
[Demosthenes] if so, Grishnakh would have seen Sauron.
[Demosthenes] met? cowered before?
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, he had been forced to report to one. He knew how fearsome they could be.
[Elemmire] or heard about him Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] What was the line? When he was repeating “Nazgul”
[Puma] and the nazgul knew a hobbit had the ring
[Pete_R] Not neccessaroly, Demz–word about Sauron’s apearance would be spread throughout th Mordor crew, I’d think
[Jenniearcheo] “Nazgul, Nazgul” said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savored painfully.
[Demosthenes] You’ll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan’t hurry the enquiry. Oh dear no!
[Demosthenes] and who’s the Questioner?
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean the Nazgul would necessarily have told Grishnakh about the Ring, Puma. The bad guys of M-E aren’t big on explaining themselves or their decisions to the lower ranks.
[Darkover] Probably a Nazgul, Demosthenes.
[Elemmire] good question Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] i thought they called them Shriekers?
[Puma] anyway….i have to head out.fun convo people….and if you want to speak about the active valar in lotr….speak tome of it sometime…there are many examples
[lini_b] i figured Sauron, because of the capitol Q
[Jenniearcheo] To the Uruks, it’d be Saruman
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Puma] good convo people
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Puma, see you next time.
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[Elemmire] bye puma
[Pete_R] bye Puma
[lini_b] bye Puma
[Elemmire] yeah, maybe sauron?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting to wonder what would have happened if they had managed to get Merry and Pippin to Isengard
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: if … and a definiter if … Grishnakh had been present at the torture of Gollum … then you’d think Grishnakh would mean Sauron.
[Darkover] For something as important as the Ring, the Questioner might have been Sauron himself, but I’m betting it was a Nazgul.
[Jenniearcheo] Would Saruman have turned them over to a Nazgul?
[Darkover] More painful than interesting for Merry and Pippin, Jennie
[Demosthenes] For i have always inferred that Sauron dealt with Gollum personally.
[lini_b] heck no
[Elemmire] hmm not sure
[Elemmire] i guess
[Susanita] shirrrrrrrrre
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie–would Saruman have sent a buch of Uruk-hai after Frodo?
[Susanita] bagginssssssssss
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting for me sitting here on my nice king-size quilt
[Demosthenes] But .. it’s a string of logic i know
[Jenniearcheo] Seemingly he did
[Demosthenes] with a few ifs
[Elemmire] Demosthenes it makes sense
[lini_b] gollum hates the great eye
[Jenniearcheo] When the Uruks were sent, was it on Sauron’s behalf?
[Demosthenes] jennie: Saruman would have kept the hobbits
[Mino] Mae govannen! How amazing to be able to chat with other Tolkien and LoTR fans
[Darkover] You are probably right that Sauron was present at Gollum’s torture. Tolkien wrote that gollum feared the Dark Lord, but hated him even more
[Demosthenes] at least until he got all the information he could
[Jenniearcheo] Were the three bands of orcs working together because Sauron told them to?
[Darkover] Hello, Mino
[Elemmire] hi mino
[lini_b] he doesn’t like the nazgul but “Don’t take it to him”
[Pete_R] Didn’t Saruman have Uruks as well, or ifd the movie fogging my memory?
[Elemmire] the uruks were sarumans
[Jenniearcheo] Would there have been a terrific showdown between the Two Towers if they had managed to Take the Hobbits to Isengard, is myquestion
[Darkover] And if Gollum had been questioned by a Nazgul, say, wouldn’t he have hated the nazgul?
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yes, Ugluk is one of saruman’s uruks
[Elemmire] possibly jennie
[Darkover] He did, Pete_R. Remember the symbol of the White Hand?
[Susanita] Orcs with the filthy white mark
[Darkover] That was in both the books and the movies.
[Mino] Aye, the mark of Saruman
[Pete_R] k, thx, Demz and Elemmire Hi, Mino
[Demosthenes] he gives them man-flesh
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, they didn’t have the ring. If Frodo’d been one of those captured, and Saruman had got the ring, then we’d see what we’d see . . .
[Mino] I bred them down in the depths of Isengard
[Darkover] Then this would have been a much shorter and less happier book, Jennie
[Pete_R] I remembered the white hand, Darkover, but Jennie confused me.
[Jenniearcheo] I do that from time to time.
* Elemmire can feel my brain working overtime
[Pete_R] ysp
[Jenniearcheo] Feeds them on Fell Meats, no doubt
[Mino] I haven’t read the books in a few years, but I’ve seen the movies a million times so most of my memores are from them
[Elemmire] great diet
[Demosthenes] related to the how-much-does-grishnakh-know question:
[Demosthenes] ‘You seem to know a lot,’ said Uglúk. ‘More than is good for you, I guess. Perhaps those in Lugbúrz might wonder how, and why.
[Susanita] I’m reading the chapters as we go
[Jenniearcheo] Always insist on kosher Fell Meats
[Darkover] Orcs aren’t above a bit of cannibalism, so I wonder how much more fell the meats could get!
[Susanita] it’s a treat
[Mino] haha
[Jenniearcheo] Is Lugburz an orc city in Mordor?
[Elemmire] maybe the whole listening at doors poin that darkover? made Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] lugburz is the orc word for the dark tower
[Jenniearcheo] Ahhh
[Jenniearcheo] kay
[Elfriend] When I see the name ‘Lugburz’ I think of some part of Germany in the first or second world war.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. lol
[Darkover] lol, Elfriend
[lini_b] i figured because sauron knew what was in saurumans mind, that he sent his orcs to run into the isengatd group
[Demosthenes] Barad-dûr (Sindarin “Dark Tower”, sometimes given as The Barad-dûr (Lugbúrz in Black Speech))
[Elfriend] I never knew that
[Elfriend] IN all my time as a Tolkien fan
[Darkover] These discussions are educational, as well as interesting
[Demosthenes] i figured orcs would not use black speech .. but they do. kinda.
[Elemmire] why does my chat not like the accents?
[Jenniearcheo] I loved Pippin’s refusal to eat the strip of dried meat.lol
[Pete_R] same here, Elemmire
[lini_b] mine either Elemmire
[Demosthenes] mibbit does not do accents very well. :/
[Jenniearcheo] WE’re using the mibbit chat. It doesn’t like his pasted diacritical marks
[Elfriend] But I’m going to leave here wanting to read the books again – as always
[Elemmire] i get a little question mark. its confusing
[Pete_R] Pippin was all, “Ewww, I don’t *think* so…”
[Elemmire] this is a really good conversation!
[Darkover] He wasn’t that hungry yet, and I don’t blame him.
[Darkover] We try, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] The Nazgul are “the apple of the Great Eye.” lol Apple
[Elemmire] woah. fruit?
[Darkover] and his enforcers, it seems
[Elemmire] mordor doeant do fruit
[Demosthenes] the fruit would come from Nurnen, i guess.
[Elfriend] How about ‘the apple of the great evil eye’
[Demosthenes] or from further east
[Darkover] If mordor doesn’t do fruit, maybe that’s Sauron’s problem. He’s not regular.
[lini_b] but they do wine don’t they?
[Jenniearcheo] “He was famished but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him by an Orc, the flesh of he dared not guess what creature.”
[Susanita] oooh, Darkover, that’s the pits
[Elemmire] yuck
[Darkover] Sorry, I thought it was funny
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] oh dear
[Jenniearcheo] Now I have a vision of SAuron on the john
[Elemmire] we’re slowly going downhill
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for that
[Susanita] rofl
[Elemmire] scrap slowly
[Demosthenes] lots of orc names in this chapter. skai, grishnakh, lugdush, mahur, ugluk
[Pete_R] The REALLY Dark Throne
[Elfriend] Oh no
[Darkover] How else do you think Mordor tortures people, jennie?
[Susanita] Dem did write that post about Middle Earth … elimination
[Jenniearcheo] True, the One Loo to Rule Them All
[Elemmire] i like grishnakh as a name. it sounds good when you say it
[Pete_R] haha–true, Susanita
[Darkover] And it was funny, but true, Susanita
[Elfriend] Stop it x D
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the Uruks’ eyes are described as angular or slanted or something.
[Elemmire] like an elfs
[Jenniearcheo] Something . . . perhaps not 21st-century PC
[Darkover] Tolkien didn’t bother to be PC, and I thank the Valar for it
[Demosthenes] one guesses an orc might be attractive to another orc
[Elemmire] hmm
[Elfriend] Ugluck and Grishnakh sound much better than ‘Gorbag’ and ‘Shagrat’
[Elemmire] there are never any mentions of femal orcs
[Susanita] let’s not go there, Dem!
[Darkover] no wonder they live their lives in the dark. If they saw each other in daylight, there would be no little orcs
[Elemmire] lol
[Mino] lol
[Susanita] orclettes
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it was half a century ago . . .
[lini_b] are there lady orcs?
[Elfriend] Dems, that would take many pints of Fosters
[Pete_R] Female orcs hang out with female dwarves, Elemmire
[Susanita] orclings?
[Elemmire] ok pete
[lini_b] lol Pete_R
[Darkover] Actually, in a more serious vein, I have always suspected that we never see or hear about female orcs, because orcs reproduce by rape.
[Jenniearcheo] I suspect lady orcs are kept in the depths of caverns, in a constant state of pregnancy
[Jenniearcheo] pretty much
[Elfriend] I could have gone the rest of this HOF without that one Darkover.
[Elemmire] oh great. lovely
[Elfriend] But, okay.
[lini_b] and uruks are test tube babies
[Darkover] Sorry. I seem to be in offensive mode tonight
[Demosthenes] Tolkien also described the Druedain as having “unlovely faces”
[Demosthenes] So the lack of looks gets shared around
[Jenniearcheo] Except the uruk-hai are a perversion of orcs and men . . . which was prettied up for the film with his weird sac. But probably resulted from human captive women
[Elemmire] druedain?
[Pete_R] Darkover, I doubt that, becuse I’d think there would be more examples of halfbreeds, like in Bree
[Demosthenes] Aragorn is a bit weatherbeaten too
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: the pukel men. wildmen of the woods. woses.
[Elfriend] A tactical advantage.
[Darkover] Well, Pete, how do we know there aren’t? and where do you think such halfbreeds come from?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the weirdo in Bree was an early uruk experiment
[miriel] Night all
[Jenniearcheo] night miriel
[Demosthenes] the swarthy man?
[Mithrandir] Miriel!
[Darkover] Goodnight, Miriel
[Elemmire] bye miriel
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Darkover] See you next time
[lini_b] bye miriel
[Elfriend] Dems- one would not seek Isildurs heir in unlovely faces, one might be looking for Orli or some such : )
[Demosthenes] i dunno. pippin (or merry?) says later that he looked orcish?
[Jenniearcheo] Bill Ferny’s funny looking friend
[Mithrandir] Ok, talk to you later Miriel!
[Mithrandir] Good night!
[Mithrandir] and im goin out too guys!
[Mithrandir] night all
[Demosthenes] night Mithrandir!
[Elemmire] bye
[Pete_R] Bt what I’m saying is that if all orc babies come from forced relations with humans, then the race of orcs would be watered down, and all the orc would be “half-breeds,” for lack of a better term.
[lini_b] bye Mithrandir
[Darkover] Aragorn was weatherbeaten from leading a hard life, but no one ever said he was ugly. On the contrary, when he was cleaned and dressed up at Lorien, Arwen thought he looked like an elf-lord
[Pete_R] bye miriel and mithrandir
[Elemmire] do we have to discuss orc breeding habits?
[Darkover] Bye, Mithrandir
[Jenniearcheo] Not all orc babies. Just the Uruk-hai, Pete
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire’s right, there are better things to discuss.
[lini_b] how could sauruman have created 10,000 uruks in such a short time?
[Elfriend] We are now in a Pg-13 chat
[Elemmire]
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Demosthenes] there’s some indication that orcs might be immortal too
[Jenniearcheo] But, he’d been doing so for a while
[Demosthenes] though that doesn’t come up until ROTK
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Demosthenes?
[Elemmire] really?
[Jenniearcheo] They are perverted elves, aren’t they?
[Susanita] Uruk-hai were Saruman’s clone army
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Pete_R] Okay, isstead of storks, do fell beasts bring orc babies/ But I digress…
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] No reason why perverted elves should suddenly acquire a life span is there?
[Demosthenes] http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcDeath
[Pete_R] interesting point, Dems
[Demosthenes] it’s circumstantial, like a lot of stuff in Tolkien.
[Elemmire] good point Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bolg and Azog were fairly long-lived. Good point
[Jenniearcheo] It surprises me that there would be a father-son relationship amongst orcs. That they paid attention to parentage
[Elemmire] hmm
[Pete_R] Jennie, I always got the impression the the elves were in the loop thousands of years ago, and the orc gene pool was probably horribly corrupted
[Jenniearcheo] Rather inbred, I’d think
[Pete_R] yah
[Jenniearcheo] Well, on that cheery note
[Elfriend] Susanita, interesting that.
[Jenniearcheo] I have a Thai green shrimp curry and jasmine rice waiting for me.
[Elemmire] bye jennie
[Jenniearcheo] with fresh Thai basil
[Darkover] Sounds great, Jennie! Enjoy, and we will see you next time
[Elemmire] yum
[Elemmire] see you
[lini_b] bye Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Are we done for this week?
[Jenniearcheo] Byee. Bye Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] seeya jennie!
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all aspects of Orcishness
[Pete_R] bye, Jennie
[Demosthenes] i recommend the slimy tolkien FAQ btw
[Demosthenes] great resource
[Elfriend] Saruman had the stronger breed of Orcs, Sauron did did not seem to care to have the same investment.
[Susanita] orcs were cannon fodder
[Demosthenes] sauron uses massive numberws to win
[Darkover] Maybe the Dark Lord figured there were more where they came from.
[Demosthenes] yah arrow fodder
[Demosthenes] ok, next week we’ll be discussing idril and tuor

Walker has taken up a very brave challenge in providing us with the first Latin translation of Tolkien’s The Hobbit. His intent was to provide as direct a translation of Tolkien’s own words as possible and the end result is a complete and unabridged volume where even the poetry is in Latin. This direct translation is not the hallmark of the best translations, nor is it the Classical Latin of Caesar and Cicero.

The vocabulary and grammar bears a far closer resemblance to later and more colloquial forms of Latin. Some scholars will undoubtedly cringe at the compromises of grammar and word choice that have been made in order to create a Latin edition. I’m not particularly fond of the use of “dryads” for elves, among others. However, I think that given his comments on translation in “The Monsters and the Critics”, Tolkien, as both linguist and translator, would be pleased with the opportunity this first edition presents for others to discover Latin and to create their own translations, improving on language and word choice.

This edition is a seminal work and thus a valuable addition to the Tolkien corpus. It will certainly be easier for those more skilled in Latin to read, but there is no reason that it can’t be enjoyed by the novice or Tolkien enthusiast by reading in parallel with their own language edition.

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Reviewed for TheOnering.net by Ringer Valiron, a final-year university student specialising in Classics and Roman History, including beginning studies in Latin.

ONE of the many half-told tales behind Tolkien’s masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings, is the haunting story of Gilraen, Aragorn’s mother. We get the bare bones outline in the appendices, but most fans don’t get that far.

If you were wondering about that sad scene in The Fellowship of the Ring where Elrond and Aragorn are talking before Gilraen’s tomb (here’s a screencap to jog your memory), here’s the story. As usual, it’s rather different than in the films.
The Parents of Aragorn

To understand Gilraen’s tragic history, we have to go back in time during the Third Age, right back to the beginning, 3019 years before The Lord of the Rings.

At that time there were two kingdoms of the Dúnedain, the Men of the West: Arnor in the northwest, Isildur’s realm, and Gondor to the south, ruled by Isildur’s nephew after his brother died alongside their father Elendil. Both kingdoms fell into decay over thousands of years, weakened by wars, feuds, invasions, Sauron’s minions and plague. Gondor lost its royal line, while Arnor was eventually sacked (Third Age 1975).

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In his first post (there are quite a few posts up now, but best to start at the beginning, eh?), he writes:

I’M starting this blog because I know there are a lot of questions about my linguistic work on Tolkien’s languages, particularly in connection with the movies made by Peter Jackson. Instead of trying to write the same answers to a lot of different people, I thought it would be better to put some of these answers out where they can be publicly viewed.

Creating languages to supplement the work of one of the best known language creators in the world is a daunting task. It might have been too daunting if I’d ever thought about it in those terms when I started out. Actually, I kind of got sucked into it gradually.

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To quote Richard:

The way to find the texts in the languages of Middle-earth was difficult. First of course was the careful and watchful hearing in the cinemas. Richard traveled far from Poland to Ireland to watch the movie 2 weeks before the Polish premiere. The first results were published thanks to the work of Miriam “Niranare” Simon of the German forum Mellyn Lammath and Cerebrum of the Hungarian website Parf-en-Ereglas. Then the international community of the Tolkien linguists with Helge K. Fauskanger (of Norse Ardalambion) and Andrew Higgins (of Elfling list) helped to find the detailed explanation of David Salo’s conlang forms.

The dialogues, together with lyrics and inscriptions, in the languages of Tolkien were created for the movies by David Salo, an American linguist. Richard’s analysis is a work in progress, continually updated based on suggestions from fans contributed via comments to his blog-style posts, and the results of his work on The Hobbit thus far can be found as follows:

• Analysis of the Sindarin dialogues.
• Analysis of the Quenya, Khuzdûl/Neo-Khuzdûl, and Orkish/Gundabad dialect of the Black Speech dialogues.
• Analysis of the lyrics in the soundtrack can be found here and here.
• Analysis of the runic inscriptions (scroll down to the section titled INSCRIPTIONS).

The analyses of the dialogues, lyrics and inscriptions in the Lord of the Rings films can be found at Elvish.org.

Elendilion.pl is also famous for the investigation of the oldest ancestry of the Tolkien family. This family name emerges for the first time in the mediaeval sources of the German Order in Prussia, in small village in today’s Poland, Tołkiny, cf. http://www.elendilion.pl/2010/02/02/tokiny-in-warmia-a-nest-of-the-tolkien-family-ii/