A couple of weekends ago, we dived into the big battle of The Two Towers as we discussed Helm’s Deep (Book III, Chapter VII) in Hall of Fire.

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 15 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be moving onto the next chapter as we examine the events of The Road to Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Jun 02 07:33:34 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for this weekend: Helm’s Deep | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay, we might as well get started. Latecomers can catch up.
[Puma] okie
[ChristineGolden] Okay, back.
[esther] ok
[Stozzi] ok boss man :3
[Eruanna] Okay
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to note that this chapter is much shorter than the preceding one?
[Puma] all battle chapters in lotr are short
[Demosthenes] Yeah. And that’s really rather interesting.
[esther] I have to be honest, I haven’t gotten to Two Towers yet, so I really only know the movie battle scene
[Puma] i dont think jrr wanted to dwell on the battle itself
[Demosthenes] You get some (pulp) fantasy novelists who base their entire works around battle and hack n slash. But not Tolkien.
[esther] probably not Puma
[Puma] also…..jrr did one battle in detail……the nirnaeth in the sil…i dont think he thought he could top that
[Ingie] nirnaeth is hardly toppable hello, by the way
[esther] that’s Silmarillion right Puma?
[Puma] and also as a vet….i am sure battles did not bring back good memories
[Demosthenes] Do you think we still get the feel of “war buddies” coming through though?
[Puma] yes esther
[Demosthenes] As in, friendship forged in the crucible of war.
[esther] I have to get some more Tolkien books
[Puma] i think we see that…jrr made that point.big friendships werwe forged in this chapter
[esther] I believe so Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt after his experiences in WWI, Tolkien was interested in guts and gore.
[esther] I agree
[Eruanna] I think so, like with Eomer and Aragorn they often say they want to ride into battle together
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i wonder at that also… and that might explain the conciseness of this chapter.
[Puma] yes Eruanna
[Puma] but also eomer and gimli
[Demosthenes] puma: Eomer and Aragorn … Legolas and Gimli?
[Erestel] And of course, Legolas and Gimli with their kill-count game.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] To some extent Theoden and Aragorn also.
[esther] Legolas and Gimli became fast friends during battle
[Puma] but legolas and gimli were not together in the battle
[Demosthenes] Though perhaps that is more a commander/chief advisor role?
[Puma] they were friends since lorien
[Demosthenes] s/role/relationship
[Ingie] the characters don’t really perceive the battles as bloody and gory mess, do they?
[Stozzi] i liked the challenge that legolas and gimli had through out that battle , counting how many orcs they’d killed
[Ingie] it’s more of a simple good/evil contest
[Eruanna] I think their friendship was strengthened in the battle
[Puma] not really.lots of greys
[Puma] legolas and gimli were not together during the battle!!
[esther] Ingie I don’t think they saw the battles as bloody messes, I think they saw it for what it was, saving their world
[Demosthenes] Ingie: no, you see that more from the perspective of the hobbits. Sam with the Easterling. And Merry and Pippin’s perspective at the Pelennor.
[Puma] i dont think they saw it as saving the world……just survive the battle
[esther] I agree with Demosthenes, Ingie
[Demosthenes] And that’s an interesting dualism too. Helm’s Deep gets very much a heroic, broad brush portrayal. Rather than a gritty, realistic one.
* Puma nods
[ChristineGolden] That had to have been a very bloody battle, ester, with axes and swords. I think Tolkien preferred to dwell on other aspects.
[Eruanna] Puma, from memory I think they say to people to tell the other how many they’ve killed and also ask if they have seen them
[Darkover] Mae govannen, Chris and everyone!
[Puma] but did you all notice…..when gandalf left the riders….he knew the ents were at isengard
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Demosthenes and Puma!
[Darkover] What are we discussing?
[esther] of course he wanted to concentrate on something other then the battles
[Puma] legolas saw the shadow coming to isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Stozzi] Yes cause gandalf spoke with the ents, when treebread had merry and pippen right?
[Demosthenes] Helm’s Deep. And … the heroic nature of the battle in its portrayal.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover!
[Puma] also the battles of the fords of isen contribute to this chapter…as the end parts of that in UT.took place at the same time
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[ChristineGolden] What do you mean by ‘heroic,’ Demosthenes?
[esther] Hi Baumbart
[Darkover] Hey, Baumbart
[Demosthenes] If i wanted to pick some elements that I think reinforce that feeling most, I’d pick the charge of Theoden at the end, and the horn of helm and its effect on the opposing host of orcs.
[esther] as the heroic part?
[Puma] i think of aragorn standing on the ramparts…and warning the uruks and dunlendings
[ChristineGolden] Okay, I agree with those ones, but I didn’t really think the chapter was ‘heroic’ in the traditional sense.
[esther] what is “heroic” in the traditional sense
[Puma] that is why jrr was so good.he is not traditional
[Demosthenes] puma: yes, that is an odd parley as well.
[Darkover] I personally like it when Aragorn and Eomer draw swords together–for the first time, I believe
[ChristineGolden] Medieval, ester, as in knights in shining armor, etc.
[esther] well I guess I’m more into non-traditional
[Ingie] also, there wasn’t the conflict of slaughtering the dunlendings (while the haradrim were shown to be real humans worth of pity)… so once again, balck/white heroism here. No ambiguity
[Puma] i know people always think of rohan as medieval.jrr said it was not
[Ingie] because the dunlendings weren’t really mentioned, at least not their deaths
[brennil] we don’t need knights in shining armer…Rangers in cloaks work better
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t sat that Rohan was medieval, Puma. I was speaking of the battle itself.
[Puma] well no Ingie.the dunlendings surrendered and were given terms and released
[Darkover] If we wanted shades of gray, Ingie, we would probably read modern novels. Personally, I like the fact that in a fairy tale, good and evil are pretty clear-cut
[esther] I agree Brennil I prefer rangers over knights
[Erestel] The Silmarillion had plenty of grey characters, but that’s another discussion.
[esther] I agree Darkover, I love fairy tales for being so clear
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover, with people having to take a stand for one or the other. And nothing does that more than a battle.
[Puma] lotr all the characters are grey
[Darkover] True, Chris and Esther
[Darkover] just the cloaks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Ingie] I love lotr and the good/evil contest simply saying that this is not the case of gritty realistic war
[Puma] nope.people
[Darkover] and the occasional wizard
[esther] lol true it is the cloaks that are grey
[brennil] gritty realistic war is more about greed than good/evil
[Puma] so do you all see the contest between legolas and gimli as to who killed the most…an enviable trait
[esther] I agree again Brennil, real war is about greed
[Demosthenes] puma: It has a sort of gallows humour about it.
[ChristineGolden] No, ester, all wars are about power at their roots. Even the one we’re supposed to be talking about.
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] Aragorn never counted
[brennil] nope, Puma. I see the pity and little bloodlust more enviable
[Darkover] Frankly, Puma, I don’t have a problem with it. When the enemy is knocking down your door, trying to kill innocent people, I frankly don’t blame someone who takes a bit of pride in how many he has killed
[Demosthenes] It’s the sort of things soldiers in the trenches might do to try and stop themselves going mad.
[Darkover] If that is bloodthirsty, then pass the Type O
[Puma] just making a point….no person in lotr is “perfect”
[Elemmire] lol
[Elemmire] its true though
[esther] well Chris at least there’s a clear line between good and evil in fantasy, the the real world its not so clear
[ChristineGolden] Patton’s men nailed the ears of German soldiers they had killed to posts.
[Xanaseb] ouch
[ChristineGolden] Really, ester? Because I can think of a list of wars that were between good and evil.
[Puma] and was that “good” Christine?
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking of fighter and bomber squadrons that would mark kills on the fuselages of their planes.
[brennil] they were already dead, Xanaseb
[ChristineGolden] I think so, Puma, but ymmv.
[Xanaseb] still brutal.
[Xanaseb] in anycase
[brennil] I think the lack of respect for enemies shown after death is not a good thing
[Xanaseb] indeed
[Darkover] And I’ve heard of soldiers, in many wars, who would put notches on their rifles for every enemy they killed. It doesn’t shock me.
[Puma] i think jrr was making the point that war is brutal…..and people do things that are normally not in character
[Elemmire] I agree with demosthenes, it does seen like a way of keeping focussed on something
[Xanaseb] indeed Puma.
[esther] in the real world, there aren’t any wars nowadays that have a fine line between good and evil, but that’s just my own opinion, no one has to agree with me
[Elemmire] agree, puma
[brennil] good point Puma and Elemmire
[Darkover] Probably, Elemmire
[Demosthenes] No, I’m not at all shocked. How do we know that Von Ritchofen was the best flying ace in WWI? Someone kept count.
[Eruanna] I think that on ships they used to put notches in cannons for how many battles they were in… or something similar
[Puma] oh.its not shocking.thats the point.was is brutal and people do things not really to be proud about
[Elemmire] So, we can conclude lots of people did it
[Puma] war is brutal
[Darkover] It seems to me that in war, people do what they have to do, and never having been in combat myself, I am not going to judge anyone who keeps a tally or the like, if it helps them get through it.
[Demosthenes] That being said, it is possibly more notable that Aragorn /does not/ keep count.
[Demosthenes] Why do you think?
[Darkover] Maybe he stopped counting long ago, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] and aragorn probaly killed more than legoalas and gimli
[brennil] he is quite old
[esther] that was interesting to me, that Aragorn never kept count
[brennil] and Legolas and Gimli were having “friendly” competition
[Puma] Aragorn is way younger than either legolas or gimli
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one possibility. he seems to have fought for both rohan and gondor in his youth.
[Darkover] And has fought many battles, for Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[brennil] :s oh. miscaculation.
[Darkover] Is Aragorn younger than Gimli?
[Elemmire] well, we don’t know that he never counted…he just didn’t make light of it as legolas and gimli did
[Puma] yes
[Puma] by many yrs
[esther] yes everyone in all the realms seem to know Aragorn way before the time of LOTR
[Elemmire] it is probable that legolas has been in many battles, given how old he is
[Erestel] Yes, Darkover. I think Gimli was around 160 years old during The Lord of the Rings.
[Puma] gimli was 62 in 2941 when aragorn was 10 in the hobit
[Xanaseb] I know this might sound silly, but maybe it is done in a more humorous way?.. that they are counting usually brings a smile to the reader’s face.. .. I think we might be thinking a little too much into this
[Xanaseb] IMO.
[Darkover] Possibly, Xanaseb
[Puma] agreed Xana
[Demosthenes] Aragorn also has more of a commander’s responsibilities here.
[Elemmire] Yeah, I think that it can be seen either way
[Erestel] My mistake, Gimli was 140.
[Demosthenes] He virtually acts as Theoden’s second in command
[Darkover] Also very true, Demosthenes
[Puma] well…..no.he was just a knight serving theoden
[Demosthenes] Eomer defers to him
[Darkover] And Aragorn props up Theoden’s morale, as I recall
[ChristineGolden] afk
[brennil] mutual respect?
[Puma] again aragorn and eomer were separated at the major part of the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he does seem to do that.
[Elemmire] A lot of that, of course being Aragorn being who he is
[Darkover] Agreed, Elemmire
[Elemmire] if anyone understood that…
[Eruanna] Perhaps Theoden sees him as a king or a rightful one and therefore respected him and saw him as an equal
[Elemmire] Aragorn does have tha bility to make people follow him but would they have, if they didn’t know who he was
[Darkover] I understand it to mean that Aragorn is a leader, and that is obvious in his conduct, although he never tries to overrule or overreach King Theoden
[Puma] this chapter also forges what will be a lifelong bond between aragorn and eomer
[Elemmire] *the ability
[Darkover] Right, puma
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] Darkover: he does defer to Theoden’s right to command his men. One wonders whether he doubted Theoden’s decision to ride out at the dawn.
[Puma] Aragorn understood the minds of the rohirrim.as he had been among them b4
[Elemmire] uh…I have a question
[Demosthenes] sure
[Darkover] If he did doubt it, he seems to have kept it to himself
[ChristineGolden] fussy baby – maybe I’ll have better luck next week. gotta go~ ~ ~
[Darkover] bye, Chris
[Darkover] ask away, Elemmire
[Xanaseb] go ahead Elemmire.
[Erestel] We’re all ears.
[Elemmire] The men of Rohan are referred to as many things, Rohirrim, Eorlingas etc. Is there any difference in these terms and, if so, can someone explain please?
[Puma] they all mean horse people
[Darkover] Didn’t rohirrim mean “horse lords,” and Eorlingas mean the people of Eorl the Young?
[Demosthenes] Eorlingas is something like sons of Eorl.
[esther] good question Elemmire, I’ve been wondering what each one meant
[Puma] yes.
[Erestel] Rohirrim is the general term for a man of Rohan. Eorlingas is a term used for men descended from Eorl the Young. There are also Helmlingas, men descended from Helm Hammerhand.
[Puma] but eo means horse
[Darkover] I think Rohan was the name of their kingdom that was given them by the people of Gondor–the name, that is
[Eruanna] I think they have different linguistic origins, but i may be wrong
[Darkover] and I think their name for themselves was Eorlingas
[Puma] in rohan their country was called the riddermark
[Stozzi] arent the people of rohan known as the horse people ? (cant think of correct name for this XD)
[esther] all I know is that Rohan is the realm of the horse-lords
[Stozzi] THERE we go thanks esther :’D
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, sorry I’m late. I was on an archaeological dig at a Late Woodland Indian village with the Fell Beasts
[Demosthenes] Helmlingas would probably be specifically used FOR and ABOUT the men of Westfold.
[esther] you’re welcome Stozzi
[Puma] roch is horse in sindarin
[Demosthenes] That’s my guess anyhow.
[Darkover] Hello, jennie! Hope you and the fell beasts had a good dig
[Elemmire] There’s so many different terms, thank you
[Puma] eo is horse in rohirric
[Elemmire] hey jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks!
[Elemmire] I’m less confused now
[Puma] gday jennie
[Jenniearcheo] gday
[Xanaseb] Jennie hey
[Jenniearcheo] Seb
[Xanaseb] Lasak hey
[Lasak] hello
[esther] I’m not confused anymore either about the different names of the horse-lords
[Jenniearcheo] I missed it. But I’ll live
[Demosthenes] Perhaps at this point it might be good to return to the chapter, and the intelligence that draws Gandalf away.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] And leads him to tell Theoden to head for Helm’s Deep
[Elemmire] hmm
[Lasak]
[Puma] Leolas saw the shadow decending towards isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] first this: ‘Many miles lie between,’ said Legolas, gazing thither and shading his eyes with his long hand. ‘I can see a darkness. There are shapes moving in it, great shapes far away upon the bank of the river; but what they are I cannot tell. It is not mist or cloud that defeats my eyes:
[Darkover] One of the men of the guard made a crack about Gandalf’s abrupt departure
[Demosthenes] there is a veiling shadow that some power lays upon the land, and it marches slowly down stream. It is as if the twilight under endless trees were flowing downwards from the hills.’
[Elemmire] How does he know?
[Darkover] elf-eyes
[Elemmire] I love the description in that part of the chapter btw. And of the sunset as well
[Puma] legolas could not see the ents.just the shadow they caused
[Elemmire] Sorry, how does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] That is a good question. How does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew merry and pippin were with the ents
[esther] I thought Elves could see anything
[Demosthenes] And for what degree of know?
[Lasak] So he kinda used the people of Rohan as a bait?
[Puma] and had also seen treebeard
[Puma] so knew that the ents would have to react
[Darkover] no, Lasak, he just got the Rohirrim–and Theoden–moving, which had to be done
[Elemmire] ah
[Demosthenes] Well, that’s not /know/, that’s an educated guess surely?
[Puma] and gandalf also knew that ents move in “shadows”
[jamie] just a question does anyone know if the nre Desolation of smaug trailers arriving soon? as it must be
[Elemmire] ok puma
[Elemmire] thanks
[Demosthenes] jamie: dunno.
[esther] I heard its arriving on June 14th Jamie
[Stozzi] ok one battle i really like was battle of pelenor (off topic but just saying :3)
[Puma] i dont think it was an educated guess…..gandalf knew
[Xanaseb] Greeny
[jamie] its arriving with the man of steel film I heard the same
[Demosthenes] Then how did he know?
[esther] I agree Stozzi, I loved that one too
[esther] right Jamie
[Darkover] Whether he knew for a fact or not, Gandalf realized this was something that needed his attention
[jamie] right anywaqy thanks bfn
[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the arrival of Ceorl seems to have tipped the balance
[Puma] gandalf knew what a bunch of ents and huorns looked like when on the move
[Darkover] Much of this book involves Gandalf encouraging people at one front, only to set off for another and do the same
[esther] who is Ceorl?
[Demosthenes] Things have gone evilly since Théodred fell. We were driven back yesterday over the Isen with great loss; many perished at the crossing. Then at night fresh forces came over the river against our camp. All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us.
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, LL
[Xanaseb] LL!
[Elemmire] Gandalf gets people to do stuff, they do it, he gets other people to do other stuff.Basically
[Demosthenes] then gandalf says:
[lorienslady] Hiya Jennie and Xana
[Demosthenes] ‘Ride, Théoden!’ he said. ‘Ride to Helm’s Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.’ Turning to Aragorn and Éomer and the men of the king’s household, he cried: ‘Keep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helm’s Gate! Farewell!’
[Elemmire] hey lady
[Darkover] Right, Elemmire
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[Puma] it was gandalfs job to unite all the parties
[Demosthenes] It’s more Ceorl’s new that prompts Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] *news
[Xanaseb]
[Stozzi] hmm most of the things gandalf has done has influenced a lot through out of the books if you thing about it
[Darkover] And it was also his job, had been from the beginning, to encourage people to resist Sauron–and in this context, Saruman, too
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[esther] I really need to get to reading the books lol
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[Puma] well.no….when ceorl arrived with the news.gandalf knew not to bother with the fords anymore
[Demosthenes] esther: one of Erkenbrand’s soldiers. A survivor of the battle of the fords of the isen.
[Darkover] You won’t regret it, Esther
[esther] oh thanks Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Yeah, I agree with puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Me, too
[Jenniearcheo] fwiw
[Puma] and then gandalf also knew..that he needed the ents help…….as b4 he had no idea of the numbers saruman was sending
[esther] Darkover, I’ve been trying to get through the first one
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[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Could the Rohirrim have defeated the orcs in a field battle?
[esther] I’ve watched the movies over 100 times just haven’t gotten through the books yet
[Darkover] The first starts out slow, Esther, give it time
[Puma] to few for a field battle
[Darkover] I doubt it, Demosthenes
[esther] what do u mean by that question Demosthenes
[Stozzi] yet the ents decided to sit and debate on it for ages , until merry and pippen convinced treebeard to pass isengard ?
[Elemmire] I think it depends how many
[Elemmire] Not the whole host
[Elemmire] there were waaaaaay to many
[esther] you are right Darkover, I need to be motivated to read it lol
[Demosthenes] esther: well, Helm’s Deep is essentially a seige battle.
[Puma] merry and pippin did no such thing
[Puma] that is just movie Stozzi
[Puma] which is wrong
[Lasak] helms deep is a strong castle
[Jenniearcheo] which is different
[Puma] the hornburg is the fortress
[Stozzi] Ah but they did have a meeting at the entmoot though right? (need to read book again)
[esther] ok well I think the rohirrim could defeat the orcs no matter where they are
[Puma] the entmoot itself decided to atack
[Darkover] They did. And Merry and Pippin did serve a purpose
[Elemmire] Yeah, but pip and merry werent there
[Eruanna] I don’t think they would have won, the uruk hai managed to break the deeping wall which had stood strong over many seiges
[Elemmire] they were off with the ;hasty’ ent
[Puma] actually after the entmoot began merry and pippin went off with brealad
[Darkover] Maybe, Esther, but I think that if the Rohirrim had fought the Orcs in the field, even if the Rohirrim won, I fear it would have been a Pyrric victory
[Puma] bregalad
[Jenniearcheo] Well, . . . at this point, it’s moot
[Jenniearcheo] ar ar
[Elemmire] him
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] lol, jennie
[esther] Darkover, Pyrrick?
[Puma] theoden only had 1000 men.not enough for an open field battle
[Puma] gamling had another 1000 at hornburg
[Darkover] Esther, that means that the price the Rohirrim would have had to pay in lives, in order to “win,” would have been so high that it wouldn’t have been worth it
[Demosthenes] Alexander the great often fought outnumbered
[Demosthenes] and won.
[Puma] so enough to defend.not to attack
[Eruanna] Pyrric is a victory when the cost of the victory makes it worthless ie the death of eveyone
[esther] oh ok yeah that is true I guess
[Demosthenes] Eruanna: “another such victory shall be the end of us”
[Darkover] Lots of leaders have fought outnumbered and won, Demosthenes, Just as lots have fought outnumbered and lost
[Lasak] well i think they could have met them in open fields
[Darkover] or had a Pyrrhic victory–thank you, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: true enough!
[Lasak] with archers on horses
[Xanaseb] hehe
[Lasak] running close and away again
[Puma] Theoden went to helms deep.cause he knew he had no chance in the open
[esther] I agree Darkover, there have been many victories no matter the count of men in the victor’s camp
[Elemmire] probab;y killled the horses with exhaustion though lasak…
[Demosthenes] Well, he went there cuz Gandalf told him to.
[Elemmire] yeah darkover
[Puma] and knew it was correct
[Lasak] damn.. i forgot about the horses couldn’t run forever
[Puma] gandalf is an advisor.not ruler
[Elemmire] and gandalf know everything…
[Demosthenes] Would Theoden have rejected bad advice?
[Lasak] even if it is the horses of the people of rohan
[Demosthenes] Interesting thought.
[Darkover] I think Theoden had learned by this time that Gandalf did not give bad advice.
[Elemmire] Uh…Theoden listened to Wormtongue for however long it was…not so good with distinguishing bad advice
[esther] well he didn’t reject Wormtongues advice, although yes he was under Saruman’s spell
[Lasak] and would have followed that advice no matter what it was
[Puma] yes true.they had ridden all day.it was nearing dusk….hardly good conditions for horses to fight
[esther] I agree Lasak
[Demosthenes] puma: yes. they did ride hard. they feared to be too late to help Erkenbrand.
[Puma] yes
[Lasak] at the end of the chapter you see how they follow Gandalfs advice even if it seems like stupidity
[Lasak] when they ride to isengard
[Puma] also besides the ents….gandalf was gathering the men of rohan who had scattered at the fords
[Puma] all would be needed
[Jenniearcheo] Which apparently takes 10 hours
[Darkover] Although in this chapter, the Rohirrim didn’t have a tremendous number of options
[Demosthenes] puma: i thought mostly that he went to find Erkenbrand tbh. And that the visit to Isengard was a secondary affair.
[Puma] at the fords of isen.isengard was delayed…..which was of major import
[Lasak] i’m going to sleep now, must playing a chess tournament now so have to sleep
[Jenniearcheo] Night Lasak
[Demosthenes] night lasak!
[Xanaseb] ciao Lasak
[Darkover] Goodnight, Lasak, and good luck with your tournament!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, good luck!
[Stozzi] bye lasak
[Lasak] thanks
[Stozzi] i best be off to actually work tomorrow yay =-= Enjoy the discussion =D bye
[Darkover] bye, Stozzi
[Demosthenes] The good thing for Theoden was that Erkenbrand’s forces had mostly been routed and scattered, not killed.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Stozzi
[Puma] when gandalf was out and about……he met both elfhelm and grimbold
[Darkover] Right, so they lived to assemble and fight again
[esther] by Lasak and Stozzi
[Puma] gandalf sent elfhelm back to edoras
[esther] I know Grimbold but not Elfhelm
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] many characters were left out of movies esther
[esther] which means I REALLY need to read the books lol
[Darkover] Or the movies would have been three times as long
[Puma] yes
[esther] I wouldn’t have minded if they were longer lol
[Demosthenes] The orcs are actually not terribly strategic if you think about it. although they do flank at the Isen in order to make Erekenbrand’s defence untenable.
[Puma] the actual lotr is too complex to be made a movie
[person] true story
[Demosthenes] But at Helm’s Deep they use only overwhelming numbers.
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yeah
[Darkover] well, the orcs seem to be vicious, but not stupid
[esther] I don’t know if i can agree with you on that Puma
[Darkover] Hi, person
[Demosthenes] Darkover: they are very … fierce … in their parley with Aragorn.
[person] Hi
[Demosthenes] what can we conclude from their words if anything?
[Elemmire] thats one way of putting it demos
[Demosthenes] The Orcs yelled and jeered. ‘Come down! Come down!’ they cried. ‘If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!’
[Darkover] Indeed, Demosthenes. And the Uruk-hai even have a sort of martial pride and courage, which would be admirable among other circumstances
[Demosthenes] ‘What of the dawn?’ they jeered. ‘We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?’
[Darkover] That is just what I mean. Unlike most Orcs, they don’t fear the sun. It is as if they are the orcs with true martial ardor.
[Darkover] I mean, they seem to take a sort of pride in themselves, like combat soldiers who take pride in their Company or Division
[Demosthenes] Yes, I’d agree with that.
[esther] yeah its interesting that there are different versions of the orcs, ones who don’t like the light and ones who don’t give a damn lol
[Demosthenes] They have a togetherness and a sense of … loyalty? … that is absent from other orcs we meet, both earlier and later.
[Darkover] Exactly!
[Puma] i think we see later that the orcs of minas morgul and cirith ungol have martial ardor
[Demosthenes] puma: but seem more likely to fall out with each other. they have less discipline i guess.
[Darkover] Maybe, Puma, but it seems to me there is a difference between bragging, “We are the fighting Uruk-hai!” and fighting because you will be whipped or otherwise punished if you don’t.
[Puma] i am not sure
[Jenniearcheo] And as you can see, it’s a pretty low threshhold
[Puma] but good point to ponder
[Jenniearcheo] Where there’s a whip, there’s a way? lol
[Darkover] Sick but funny, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it’s from Rankin/Bass. That’s the classic Mordor orc perspective
[Demosthenes] Orcs are not as cookie cutter as they appear. Is that because of Saruman? Treebeard described him as having a mind of metal and machines and wheels. And that goes very well with rigid order.
[Puma] rigid order is what sauron was all about Demz
[Elemmire] hi
[Demosthenes] Saruman seems more so.
[Elemmire] thats a goos point demos
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, it seems like Saruman would like them to be _more_ cookie cutter
[Demosthenes] I have a different question: what precisely is the devilry of saruman that allows the uruk-hai to destroy the wall?
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, if they had been more rigid and predictable, the fracas wouldn’t have happened when they were taking the hobbits to isengard
[esther] the bombs Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Good point jennie
[Jenniearcheo] It’s all about what’s on the list, esther. It’s just a program
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I always got the impression that the movie got that detail right–that it was probably gunpowder in some form that Saruman used.
[Elemmire] its a bomb/mine in the film
[Eruanna] I think the devilry is explosives, perhaps something similar to gunpowder
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it was gunpwder
[Puma] saruman sauron and gandalf all had gunpowder
[esther] all I’m saying is its wrong to hold people back that’s all
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, radagastthebrown. Near Washington, D.C.
[Puma] DC.my old college town
[Elemmire] well, unless wizards have magic exploding spells…
[Jenniearcheo]
[Jenniearcheo] Surely Saruman would have had to be there in person for that . . .
[Darkover] And since gunpowder hadn’t been used before in M-E, it probably did seem like magic to the Rohirrim
[Elemmire] yeah…true darkover
[Puma] sauron used blasting fire.gunpwder..gandalf did fireworks.gunpowder
[Demosthenes] That’s very Arthur C Clarke.
[Darkover] Oh, yes, Puma, you’re right–I forgot Gandalf’s fireworks
[Darkover] Much more delightful than weapons
[Puma] now gandalf also had rocketry
[Jenniearcheo] Which is interesting
[Puma] but he did not use gunpwder for war
[Demosthenes] Did Gandalf get the fireworks from
[Demosthenes] The fireworks of Gandalf came from Dale/Erebor.
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . the rings, magic, whatever, is neither good nor evil, and neither is gunpowder
[Jenniearcheo] It’s just the wielder?
[Elemmire] 3Smaug makes fireworks!lol
[esther] really? the fireworks came frome Erebor/Dale
[Puma] its an interesting concept how the various maiar.had gunpwder….but gandalf did not use his for war.he surely knew it could be
[Jenniearcheo] With the exception of the One Ring
[esther] lol true Elemmire
[Demosthenes] jennie: there is that magic/art dichotomy though.
[Demosthenes] Does gunpowder count here as a “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] It counts as power
[Puma] not to us….but to people there it would seem magic
[Darkover] Well, you mentioned Arthur C. Clark, Demosthenes, I assume alluding to his comment that once you reach a certain point, science is virtually indistinguishable from magic.
[Elemmire] 3gandalf’s fireworks-werent they described as magical at one point…
[Demosthenes] I mean in its effect.
[Puma] and gandalf had it and used it not for power
[Elemmire] 3?
[Darkover] and since gunpowder had never before been used as a weapon in M-E, the rohirrim probably didn’t know what it was, and it seemed like dark magic to them.
* Puma nods
* Elemmire agrees
[Puma] same for when sauron used it to blast holes in the rammas
[Jenniearcheo] Was The Shire the only place Gandalf ever set off his fireworks?
[esther] rammas?
[Darkover] Even in the movie “300,” there is a mention of how when weapons failed, “they used their magic,” i.e., gunpowder-based grenades
[Elemmire] theyre never mentioned anywhere else
[Demosthenes] jennie: the only place we know of.
[Puma] the outer wall around the pelennor.not in the movies.though of great import esther
[esther] oh ok thanks Puma
[Jenniearcheo] To the lobbers of the grenades, it might still be magic. If you didn’t know how they were made, but were just lobbin’ ‘em.
[Demosthenes] It’s interesting that the dwarves of Erebor don’t think to take the technology any further.
[Elemmire] nice argument youre building here, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm
[Darkover] But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Aragorn pointed out to one of the hobbits that Gandalf spent a lot of time in a lot of places, that hobbits didn’t know about
[Darkover] Thank you, Elemmire
[Puma] true Darkover
[Darkover] But I imagine Gandalf saved the best for hobbit parties
[Jenniearcheo] But presumably if he’d gone to Rohan and set off a fireworks display . . .
[esther] I agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, then again, perhaps Tolkien is implying that good people wouldn’t think of such a use
[Puma] to the hobbits the fireworks were magic
* Elemmire agrees with jennie
[Demosthenes] magia in Tolkien can be used for both good and bad. it’s not good or bad in itself.
[Darkover] Maybe so, Jennie. Tolkien tended to frown on technology, anyway, as he seemed to think it was frequently put to bad uses
[Puma] and its the same with middle earth magic.intent has a big part in if it is “good or bad”
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] In The Hobbit, he goes out of his way to describe orcs, and how they may be behind our weapons of mass destruction.
[Darkover] I was recalling the same thing, Jennie
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking that this is essentially a kind of magia.
[Puma] jrr said goetic
[Puma] as opposed to magia
[Puma] but even jrr had a hard time distinguishing the 2
[esther] doesn’t everyone have a hard time distinguishing what magic really is
[Puma] jrr makes it complex
[Darkover] He makes it seem like a natural force
[Demosthenes] “the enemy’s operations are by no meas all goetic deceits, but magic that produces real effects in the physical world. but his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goetia to terrify and subjugate.
[esther] u know what I’m still confused about, it sort of has to do with my personal life as well as Tolkien
[Puma] yes Demz.from letters
[Puma] and what is that esther
[Demosthenes] I had to find the reference and type it out. but … Saruman’s and Sauron’s explosive devices that breach walls, and Gandalf’s fireworks all seem to fall inside this magia category.
[Demosthenes] It’s letter 155.
[Jenniearcheo] So with magia you blow up walls and lob rocks. With goetic power you scare people into submission
[Jenniearcheo] Like the black breath
[Demosthenes] I guess so!
[Jenniearcheo] And, presumably . . . the Ring
[Puma] it was a bit more complex than what Demz quoted
[Demosthenes] Or deceive them, like Sauron does with Barahir’s companion.
[esther] I know my mom has her tastes but I really thought she’d want to read the books after I told her that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and my mom is a devout Christian
[Demosthenes] By imitating the dead.
[Puma] but in the end.both good and bad people use both.intent is the key
[Darkover] true, Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Well, esther, it is a matter of taste. Some people are uncomfortable with questioning reality at all. Even in fun.
[Demosthenes] It’s pretty clear that Saruman is into bulldozing here.
[Darkover] does your mom like fantasy, Esther?
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[esther] I dunno Darkover she watched a movie once that had fairies in it and didn’t seem to mind
[Puma] i think we have covered this chapter well
[Demosthenes] Yeah, lastly I’d like to flip to the conclusion, and touch on the Huorns. This is the Macbeth rewrite?
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all points
[Darkover] yes, the moving forest!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as I understand it.
[Puma] many scholars think so Demz
[Darkover] A moving, *angry* forest
[Puma] nature rising to protect itself
[esther] ah yes the forest that attacked the fleeing Uruk Hai
[Demosthenes] I always figured this was the moving shadow that Legolas perceived at the beginning of the chapter.
[Puma] it was
[Jenniearcheo] sure
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] And later we find out that the Huorns follow the orcs of their own accord? Not by any instruction from Treebeard.
[Darkover] Certainly, those who passed under that shadow never came out again. That implies huorns, or at least *really* angry Ents
[Puma] the movie esther did not show the import of the ents and huorns
[Puma] without them.helms deep would ahve been lost for all the valor of the defense
[Darkover] Although there is a part in the movie where Eomer shouts, “Stay away from the trees!” I assume that is meant to be this moment, that we are discussing.
[Demosthenes] So we see Saruman’s “devilry” and the counterpoint … the revenge of nature that destroys that which would destroy/change it.
[Darkover] yes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] it was the huorns that killed most of the uruks
[Jenniearcheo] crunchings and munchings
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] One brings about the other.
[esther] um ok Puma you’ll have to explain how they didn’t
[Puma] the huorns were the deciding factor in the battle
[Puma] nature.
[Demosthenes] Forces that are outflanked or surrounded usually lose. Badly.
[Puma] without nature on your side.all the valor will still fail
[esther] the huorns?
[Darkover] Plus, evil trees would be sort of freaky, IMO
[Puma] so treat nature with respect
[esther] I agree Darkover lol
[Jenniearcheo] or else
[Puma] the huorns were the moving trees esther
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure the huorns even after this are particularly on anyone’s side other than their own.
[Puma] agreed Demz
[esther] well I only know one thing, until I’ve read the books, I love the movies more. and I thought the moving trees were called Ents
[Darkover] Well, I doubt if the huorns were drawing many distinctions at that point
[Puma] no.ents were treebeard and ilk
[esther] oh ok
[Demosthenes] Wonder if the Rohirrim had anything to fear.
[Puma] the books are way more complex than movies esther
[Darkover] Ents were the “shepherds of the forest,” esther. Huorns are trees that have gone bad, so to speak, presumably from being mistreated by humans for so long.
[Darkover] Huorns weren’t mentioned in the movies.
[Puma] or also ents that had grown treeish
[Jenniearcheo] Not by name
[Jenniearcheo] But the forest does appear and chew up the Uruk Hai in the EE
[Demosthenes] An odd in-between thing.
[esther] I guess I just like seeing them visually rather than having to picture it in my head Puma
[Darkover] I bet the Rohirrim would have had plenty to fear, Demosthenes, if they had gone too near that “shadow”
[Puma] old man willow was probaly a huron
[Darkover] True, Puma
[Demosthenes] They did take wood from the forest to burn the orcs.
[Puma] huorn
[Darkover] Well, I think they were allowed to do that, so long as it was not living wood
[Puma] ents understand the use of woood.not the useless destruction saruman was doing
[Elemmire] yeah, aragorn legolas and gimli take wood earlier
[esther] I agree Puma
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it is one of jrr’s green themes
[Demosthenes] Like the Dead (later on) they perform one act to assist the free people’s and then disappear.
[Puma] respect nature
[esther] agreed Puma
[Jenniearcheo] The Grateful Dead do one act? Oh, the armies . . . never mind
[Puma] lol
[Puma] although the ents did more than one act
[Puma] they defeated a horde of orcs in the wold….
[Darkover] So, have we covered all the aspects of this chapter?
[Puma] that had failed to get into lorien
[Puma] i think so darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so. I can’t think of anything else.
[esther] I can’t say so cuz I haven’t actually read the chapter yet
[Puma] good job people
[Darkover] We’ve had a good discussion, as usual
[Puma] i would encourage you to read lotr esther
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks,Dems
[Demosthenes] thanks everyone!
Session Close: Sun Jun 02 09:49:36 2013

Translated by Christopher J. Gledhill and William Auld* (only the poems), La Hobito first appeared in the Esperanto world in 2000 and again in 2005, in both cases selling rapidly, and now reappears with small corrections to small typographical errors. This time one also expects good sales for the book, thanks to the film The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, which is the first of a three-part film series with the second part soon to be released.

The 224-page book includes a three-color cover by Masha Bajenova, who also designed 19 pictures for the book (one for each chapter), a map, and etymological notes on the names in Tolkien’s work.

The book is available now from the book service of the UEA [Univeral Esperanto Association], from Sezonoj in Kaliningrad and from Svetlana Smetanina in Moscow, for 18 Euros. The wonder tale also will be sold at a special discount price during the 49th Baltic Esperanto Days to be held in Utena, Lithuania, and the 29th “Artistic Confrontations in Esperanto” in Poznan, Poland. The fifth chapter of the book can be read for free on the archive site of ‘La Balta Ondo’.

* [I should mention that William Auld was also the Esperanto translator of The Lord of the Rings -- Ostadan]

PS. The Bajenova drawings, from the 2000 edition, can be seen here.

The action this week is happening in the Reading Room.  There are two very thoughtful investigations of female characters in J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Check here as Poster wildespace leads the discussion on their presence in The Lord of the Rings, with more in Maciliel’s contribution to The Silmarillion Discussion (Chapter 16).  Join in the fun here.

Also in the Reading Room, the TORn Amateur Symposium is underway!  Inspired by the Tolkien-themed conferences and symposiums that many of our Discussion Board Members cannot attend due to cost or location, we’re going to create our own that everyone can attend right here!  Check out the program and join us with your own submissions.

Want Hobbit Movie News?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,740 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

A couple of weekends ago, we discussed the character of Isildur in Hall of Fire. Was he, we asked, the true shaper of the Third Age? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 8 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be returning to the Hobbit movies for the first time in a while and examining the new details about Tauriel, and what they might mean for the films.

Session Start: Sun May 26 07:15:38 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Isildur, shaper of the third-age? | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] So this about Isildur fella.
[Puma] Isildur.a way more complex character than many see
[dombillyfan] lotr
[Demosthenes] err, aobut this*
[Demosthenes] puma: why do you say that?
[Puma] well..Isildur preserved the kingship of the numenoreans…and did end up making an error with the ring….but i have reasons not to totally blame him for that
[Demosthenes] Is the former more to the credit of Elendil?
[Puma] but i think the tree is the best place to start as that is young isildur
[Puma] no…….its not
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Darkover] What are we discussing this week?
[Demosthenes] Elendil seems to have driven the exiles. Or maybe even /Amandil/.
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree with that, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover, Isildur’s the topic.
[Puma] Tar-palantir prohesized that when the white tree was no more.the line of kings would end
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Nice to see you as always.
[Ringlordsander] I don’t think Isildur made an error with the Ring. I don’t think you can call it an error while everyone would do the same in that position.
[Puma] Isildur saved the white tree.by doing so.symbolically the kingship passed to the line of amandil
[Darkover] Thank you, you too!
[stargategeek] hi can I have that link to HOF again. was using different irc
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, so is the white tree thing more important than the seven ships thing? Without the ships you have no white tree, and Elendil organised the boats….
[Demosthenes] trees don’t usually float very well.
[sunshower] you are in HOF, stargategeek
[Darkover] And maybe also it was a symbol that life could go on
[Puma] yes….it was joint
[Puma] but ships with no tree……means no kingship
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, there would have been no Gondor, etc.
[Puma] and there were 9 ships
[miriel] The tree is more important IMO
[Puma] look at the importance aragorn placed on the tree
[Darkover] Sounds like both tree and ships were very important
[Puma] no tree.no king
[miriel] they could have used any boat to get from Numenor, but not any tree
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so too.
[Rivornel] And Gandalf (importance thing)
[stargategeek] whats tonights topic?
[Puma] isildur rescued a fruit of the white tree at great risk
[Lasak] I agree with miriel there
[miriel] isildur
[stargategeek] hi sunshower
[Darkover] Isildur, Stargategeek
[Demosthenes] Isildur seems to have gone to rescue the tree from Armenelos of his own accord?
[stargategeek] hi darkover
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, Isildur wouldn’t have gotten very far with his fruit.
[Puma] without the tree…..the exiled numenoreans could have come to middle earth…….but there could be no rightful king
[Darkover] would there really not have been a king, without the symbolism of the tree?
[Puma] Elendil had nothing to do with the rescue of the fruit
[Ringlordsander] I agree with ChristineGolden here. I don’t think Isildur would’ve gotten far without his father…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i dunno. what makes a king?
[miriel] I think it is interesting that we have isildur doing it, only to later fail with the ring
[Lasak] The kings always find a reason to make them above the people
[Puma] there might have been a ruler with no tree.but no king
[Teowang] u seriously are stargategreek?
[Darkover] I understand the importance of symbolism to M-E societies, but there is symbol, and there is substance
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, the tree was merely one symbol of the kingship.
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, in practical terms, being able to fight off enemies and lop their heads off is pretty important
[Puma] even aragorn knew.no tree.no true king
[miriel] do you think tolkien might have wanted to show that someone could both be wise/good/whatever and yet fail when tested by a supreme power?
[Darkover] More so than trees, although Tolkien might not agree
[Darkover] That is a possibility, Miriel
[Puma] also.with out the tree.the line of kings end…does that mean if they arrived in middle earth…they would not have survived
[Demosthenes] So in what ways does Isildur preserving the white tree (twice, not once!) shape the third age?
[Darkover] Although to be fair to Isildur, did he truly understand the nature of the One Ring when he took it?
[Demosthenes] Also, is it that act that earns the hatred of Sauron?
[Puma] lets hold off on the ring a bit please
[ChristineGolden] I think he did, as far as man could understand the evil of Sauron, Darkover
[miriel] well, we have a king that has something to base his claim of power on… would not have happened otherwise?
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, as Puma observed, symbolism is important. So is tradition. And the White Tree was a thing of beauty
[Demosthenes] All good points.
[Goldberry] Crazy that isildur could walk in there any take the fruit without anyone stopping him
[Darkover] Preserving it was undoubtedly a good action on Isildur’s part, and may have made him seem more heroic
[Demosthenes] He was injured in the process, iirc?
[Puma] when the tree sprouted in the house of amandil…isildur who had been gravely wounded.awoke for the 1st time….there is symbolism in that
[ChristineGolden] The King of Gondor had many symbols. Wasn’t there one found in Orthanc after the fall of Saruman?
[Darkover] He didn’t exactly “walk in,” as I recall, Goldberry. I think he sneaked in
[miriel] the tree is also a way of showing that the line is the right one, remember it withers when the kings disappear
[Demosthenes] Did that signify that Isildur was the true king, not elendil?
[Goldberry] Pretty good at sneaking
[Darkover] That too, Miriel. Symbolism strikes again
[Puma] and isildur was wounded gravely when taking the fruit
[Puma] isildur also had great forsight
[Goldberry] He nearly died didn’t he?
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: yes i believe so.
[Puma] it did fail him once though
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah. minas ithil. stupid place to put a city.
[Goldberry] Then he recovered when the tree started growing
[Demosthenes]
[miriel] I think he was a very devoted biologist (jk jk)
[Darkover] Most of the heroes in Tolkien’s writings had great foresight. I always wondered if that is meant to be a mystical thing, or if the heroes were just people who were smarter and thus could make predictions better than most.
[Puma] as i said earlier.when the young tree sprouted.isildur awakened
[Puma] probably both Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: better intuition?
[Darkover] Maybe a sign that Isildur–or his line–were connected with the Tree?
[miriel] very hard to say, Darkover
[Darkover] That’s just it, Demosthenes–intuition, or intelligence? As Miriel says, hard to say. Probably some of both.
[Puma] but isildur….had the men of the white mtns take an oath at the stone of erech…he had the forsight to know the war with sauron would go on a long time…of course he brought that about in part himself
[Demosthenes] Probably both. Intuition, empathy, insight … all these things make people better leaders. And Isildur seems to have been albe to lead people — he essentially sets up Arnor AND Gondor as realms.
[Demosthenes] And everyone went along with his ideas.
[Demosthenes] Isildur was also instrumental in setting up the Arnor/Gondor system, which greatly shaped the government of the Third Age.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] So he must have been quite a leader. A pity that at the end, he was remembered mostly for failing to destroy the One Ring, and getting killed by orcs int he process.
[miriel] I never really understood the benefits of s
[Goldberry] It is a pity
[Puma] well….i have reasons that the taking of the ring….was a bit more complex than people attribute to it
[miriel] *splitting up the kingdom
[Darkover] Wasn’t Isildur the eldest son? or were he and Anarion twins, and Isildur the elder? Didn’t Tolkien dither over that issue for a time?
[Lasak] that truly is a pity
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say that politically he established the foundations of a golden age. a bit like augustus.
[Demosthenes] with Rome.
[Goldberry] Easier to rule a smaller place than a bigger
[thefoolishtook] im reading what all you guys say, and i say parallels with gollum/smeagol. the whole they should of renounced the ring but they didnt know better. ultimately their fate was to help middle earth etc?
[Puma] the elves had kept the rings a secret….the numenoreans knew nothing of the rings…numenor was perhaps destryed because they did not know fo the rings.so the elves had some fault in the fall of numenor
[Darkover] yes, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] see* parallels
[Puma] so do you blame isildur for not trusting the elves advice with the ring
[miriel] yes. He did have the potential to destroy it
[Puma] isildur was in exile for lack of knowledge about the ring
[miriel] he had done many great deeds in the past
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, I’m not sure I agree that Isildur and Gollum were exactly analogous. Isildur cut it directly from the Dark Lord’s hand, after the latter just killed his father, and Gollum murdered his BF and kinsman. Not quite the same
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Diocletian. Diocletian started the process of splitting the Roman empire into east and west.
[Goldberry] Maybe isildur did know better he just wasn’t able to lett it go
[Puma] isildur did know his mistake and repented to elendur
[Puma] so isildur in that respect can be compared to boromir
[Rivornel] Well, I think the ring also played a big role. Cause when Frodo went to toss it into Mt. Doom he couldn’t do it either
[thefoolishtook] yeah darkover, i get you in that they arent like for like, but still, their whole relationship with the ring being love hate rings a bell, just an observation anyways!
[Darkover] Well, Puma, elves usually give good advice, when they give it at all. But did Isildur understand at the time what the nature of the Ring was? That in order to use it, one had to become like Sauron? Did he understand the way It was tempting him? I’m not sure about any of that.
[miriel] good point Rivornel
[Darkover] Agreed, thefoolishtook, I think the Ring did that to almost everyone who came into contact with it.
[Puma] go not to the elvesd for advice cause they say both no and yes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that would depend on how much information Celebrimbor passed on to his compatriots.
[Darkover] True, Demosthenes
[Goldberry] Puma:yes isildur reminds me of Boromir in some ways
[Demosthenes] And then how much Gil-galad passed on to … well … the Numenoreans of the 2nd age for starters
[miriel] which leads to another question: should the elves have *forced* him to throw it into mount doom?
[Demosthenes] And then later to Elendil.
[Darkover] But if we believe Elrond’s account of events, Puma, for a change, his advice was pretty explicit–destroy It
[Rivornel] the ring in general is evil, and i think it’ll turn anybody who has good intentions to bad and selfish intentions
[Puma] the numenoreans knew nothing of the ring.till gil-galad told elendil
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was a very proud man, Darkover, and would have believed he could control it.
[miriel] possible, ChristineGolden
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i could see that too.
[thefoolishtook] like denethor thought boromir could
[Darkover] No, Miriel, I think the Elves would have had to murder Isildur to take the Ring from him, and clearly they couldn’t persuade him to do so, and nothing good would have come from that.
[Puma] there is also some evidence isildur was an overbearing older brother to anarion
[Darkover] Chris, I agree. I suspect even if Isildur had known all the facts, he would have kept the Ring. Just not sure how much guilt was his, if he didn’t have all the facts.
[Demosthenes] No-one would have tried to sneak the white tree out of armenelos without having a surfeit of self-confidence.
[miriel] so in the end, as soon as he laid hands on the ring, it really could not end any other way than in disaster
[Anameleth] I kinda think the elves should have forced him to destroy the ring
[Darkover] Really, Puma? I disagree. Isildur and Anarion seem to have gotten along astonishingly well, to the point that they were co-rulers.
[Lasak] But how should they force him?
[Darkover] I heartily agree, Demosthenes
[Puma] he felt at the time as any1 would.the elves lied to us about this ring….fall of numenor is in part the elves fault….and in his pride thought ring was better off with a numenorean
[thefoolishtook] elrond could of literally pushed him into mt doom?
[Anameleth] If they knew its power and what it could do, why didn’t they get rid of it?
[miriel] indeed, dems
[ChristineGolden] He may not have known the depths of its evil, Darkover, but he knew its nature.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think Meneldil was happy to see the back of Isildur when he left. Possibly because he felt he was being shaded.
[Puma] yes.co rulers in separate cities
[Lasak] i see that, but should they kill isildur?
[Darkover] More like disaster postponed, Miriel. Isildur got murdered shortly after, which was bad for him, but the Ring was lost for ages.
[Demosthenes] I’m sure that is in UT.
[miriel] true, Darkover
[Puma] and why was meneldil so happy he left gondor and would long be gone
[Darkover] Yeah, Demosthenes, that was strongly implied, I agree
[Demosthenes] Another indication of big egos?
[Darkover] Lasak, no, they should not have killed Isildur. It would have been murder, regardless of their motives.
[thefoolishtook] lesser of two evils Darkover?
[Puma] taking the ring by murder…..that results in a gollum
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Darkover] Yes, thefoolishtook
[miriel] we also rarely find people in charge who do not have some kind of want to be leaders
[Demosthenes] I am kinda surprised there was not more squabbling over the ring after sauron was brought down. But maybe everyone was too exhausted by war.
[Demosthenes] A kind of pyrric victory.
[Darkover] Or maybe it disappeared too fast
[Demosthenes] maybe?
[Puma] no one was there…..but gil-galad.elendil.isildur elrond and cirdan
[Demosthenes] “i would have this as weregild…” etc etc
[Rivornel] Isildor died either way though, they could have prevented the whole war of the ring if they had killed him..?
[Lasak] we know saruman looked after it
[Puma] so they did not know of the ring
[miriel] do you think the ring had part in this, Demosthenes?
[Puma] and the only person isildur told was elendur
[ChristineGolden] After Sauron was brought down, there was still a lot to do. The Orcs, for example, didn’t just wave and say, “see ya around” and walk off the battlefield.
[thefoolishtook] concerning fighting over the ring after the defeat of sauron, do you think its because the elves knew its true nature, and wouldnt of wanted it anyway?
[Darkover] Well, Isildur’s death resulted in It being lost. And his death seemed like a tragedy, but wasn’t the worst thing that could have happened. Rather like the death of Boromir centuries later.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Puma] exactly darkover
[Darkover] Maybe, thefoolishtook. I’m pretty sure that was Elrond’s attitude.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: that’s another possibility. and maybe they felt, mistakenly, that it wouldn;t be that bad?
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] and only reconsidered later.
[samsbestfriend] ChristineGolden: they kinda did in LOTR
[miriel] it would have suited it to not have a strong person yielding it, not to mention many of them being aware of it. It slipped through the net of greedy hands and into the river, laying dormant while sauron regained strenght — would not have happened if a lot of people were wanting to have it
[ChristineGolden] I think Elrond’s attitude was “let sleeping dogs lie.”
[Rivornel] But Isildur’s death delayed the whole process because the ring was lost. But then I guess it allowed the “good” guys to have a chance and not be overwhelmed
[thefoolishtook] if the elves considered it lost for all of time, they might of seen the ring as destroyed anyway. lost/destroyed = same thing?
[Demosthenes] hullo Isildursbane19. we’re just talking about you.
[Anameleth] Did Elrond realize the danger of the ring though?
[ChristineGolden] Only in the movies, samsbestfriend
[Puma] back to the tree 1 second….who 1st planted a fruit up above minas tirith.anotther act of forsight….most likely isildur.since he is most connected to the tree
[Darkover] Yeah, samsbestfriend, but that was because the movie had to end. In the book-verse, King Elessar and his men had to spend years killing off various bands of orcs, even after the Ring War
[ChristineGolden] But it does contradict Aragorn’s later words about the new owner of the ring.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, what does?
[Demosthenes] puma: returning to your point about whether the Numenoreans had received Full Disclosure. Well, Isildur did seem to take it as a memorial … not as a “wooo this will make me all-powerful!” thing.
[ChristineGolden] That Sauron would expect there to be confusion and a power struggle within the allies over who should wield the ring.
[miriel] I think it suited the ring best to lay dormant out of reach for the good guys
[Darkover] Right. “weregild”
[Puma] yes Demz
[samsbestfriend] i nwas meaning at the end of the 3rd age. sorry for the confusion
[Demosthenes] Maybe the elves didn’t tell everything. Maybe Gil-galad and co /didn’t know themselves/.
[Anameleth] True
[Puma] i think they did know
[Rivornel] Gotta go, see ya’ll soon
[Darkover] Sauron probably couldn’t conceive of anything else. That was the way his mind worked. He assumed no one would willingly pass up power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe that knowledge died with Celebrimbor?
[Goldberry] Bye
[miriel] cya Rivornel
[ChristineGolden] Ok, who do we know was aware that Isildur had the ring?
[samsbestfriend] I’d imagine orcs would always be an irritant, but no longer a threat
[miriel] elrond
[Goldberry] His sons?
[Puma] Celebrimbor would ahve passed on enough infor when he passed on the 3
[Darkover] did the Elves tell everything? Probably not. Did they know themselves? Hard to tell. Did Elves, by this time, like to get involved in the events of M-E? Not very often, which is something else to bear in mind.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Elrond, Cirdan, Elendur and Meneldil.
[Goldberry] Isildurs son
[Demosthenes] maybe Isildur’s other sons too.
[Puma] it seems not
[Puma] just elendur
[ChristineGolden] and Sauron.
[Demosthenes] It’s ambiguous anyhow.
[Darkover] Elrond. Probably his twins. Isildur, of course, and his oldest son, at least. Maybe the others, too, except for the youngest.
[Puma] and most likely not meneldil.which is why he left a written record
[Demosthenes] lol and Sauron the I’m doing a Cthulhu.
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[miriel] Darkover: they just fought in the last alliance. If that is not “being involved” then what is?
[Demosthenes] but the written record would have gone to Meneldil. It was there to instruct the Kings of Gondor.
[Puma] the rings were never a thing of common knowledge
[Darkover] Okay, maybe that was too harsh of me, Miriel. I was thinking more of their behavior during the Ring War, than the Last Alliance, but you have a point.
[Demosthenes] so he would have known sooner or later.
[Puma] yes Demz…….but as gandalf had said.seems to be rearely if ever read
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Darkover has a point.
[ChristineGolden] After the fall of Sauron, didn’t the elves return to their own kingdoms and cares?
[Demosthenes] Yeah that’s true. The elves were very hands-off.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[miriel] there must be so much material to read, who would find that one little piece of paper about a heirloom that was lost?
[Demosthenes] “not our fault!”
[Puma] hands off only after sauron thrown down
[Darkover] It took even Gandalf a while, and he was looking for that reference
[ChristineGolden] So, while Isildur’s roaming around ME with the ring, the elves are back in Rivendell, etc.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was 3K years later though.
[Darkover] What’s 3K among Elves, Demosthenes?
[Puma] lol
[miriel] that is true, there is a grain (quite a big one) of truth in what Darkover said
[Demosthenes] about from now till lunchtime?
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes. You folks are witty tonight.
[ChristineGolden] The elves were hands-off during Sauron’s reign of terror, too, Puma. They locked themselves inside their kingdoms.
[Puma] jrr wrote than in the area of the rings of lothlorien and rivendell….1000 yrs seemed like 10
[Puma] so time did pass.just slowly
[Demosthenes] To some extent they had no choice there Chrstine. They needed Numenor’s help.
[miriel] now, what I do find interesting: if Elrond knew so much about this ring (he was there), why did not gandalf seek the answers from him?
[Anameleth] Hmm… I’ve never even thought about that..
[Puma] i am sure gandalf did get answers from gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I know, Demosthenes, I was just responding to Puma’s remark.
[Demosthenes]
[Puma] but no1 had handled the one to know its identifying marks other than isildur
[Darkover] Hmm, good question, Miriel. Do you think Elrond would have felt called upon to report any such questions/concerns to Saruman, who technically what still on the Council–maybe its head, I don’t recall, and Gandalf didn’t want that?
[miriel] he distrusted saruman, but he seems to trust elrond pretty much (brought the ring to rivendell etc)
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf was trying to find out how to identify the ring; I doubt Elrond could have helped him.
[miriel] that could be it, perhaps, Darkover
[Puma] no 1 but isildur knew what the rings marks were
[Lasak] But that was after he knew of sarumans betrayal
[Puma] elrond could not have known that
[ChristineGolden] Elrond didn’t know about the inscription, for example, or how to make it readable.
[thefoolishtook] rookie question, but im guessing gandalf and the istari where about during the first age?
[Puma] exactly
[Puma] no
[miriel] ChristineGolden: but would it not be more likely that elrond, who had seen it, would know, rather than that there would be a note from ages past still saved about this matter?
[Darkover] No, the foolishtook, they weren’t
[Puma] the istari came mostly about 1000 3rd age
[ChristineGolden] No, the istari arrived at the beginning of the 3rd age.
[Demosthenes] I have another question. If the Ring has an inevitably corruptive power (which everyone agrees on), was what Isildur and Elrond and Cirdan chose to do the best (least worst?) possible choice?
[Puma] not till sauron was arising again
[thefoolishtook] ok, thanks darkover, puma, and chris!
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, miriel, unless it was still hot from Sauron’s hand when he saw it.
[Puma] only isildur saw and took the ring
[miriel] so elrond never saw it?
[Puma] elrond and cirdan would not jhave known
[Darkover] Isildur should have thrown the Ring into Mt. Doom when he had the chance, but since we don’t know how much he knew for a fact about It, I don’t think we can judge him *too* much. Hindsight and all that.
[miriel] nessyness, welcome to the madNess
[Puma] they saw a gold ring
[ChristineGolden] Could you be more specific, Demosthenes, about what choice?
[Nessy] Ha, 5
[Darkover] Elrond couldn’t have destroyed It at the time without murdering Isildur to do it.
[Goldberry] They asked him to destroy it puma
[Nessy] Thanks….random 5
[Demosthenes] Darkover: but no-one could have done that it seems. it seems to be physically beyond anyone.
[Puma] ty Darkover…..i have been trying to make that point
[ChristineGolden] Then we would have had a much shorter saga, Darkover.
[Darkover] Yes indeed, Chris!
[miriel] had elrond perhaps told gandalf all he knew already?
[miriel] at an earlier point
[thefoolishtook] and Peter JAckson would be much less well off!
[Puma] its all just a bit more complex than a surface story….glad we are discussing it
[Darkover] Sadly true, Demosthenes
[miriel] oh, but now I remember, he knew that saruman had gotten the info somewhere… that explains it
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] Well, it’s speculation about fiction, miriel, but it’s reasonable to assume that the White Council discussed the ring.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Well, Isildur took the ring. this had all sorts of outcomes. Barring destroying the ring, which seems to require an impossible act of will, was he the best possible guardian in the circumstances?
[ChristineGolden] what a terrible thought, thefoolishtook.
[Darkover] didn’t Saruman keep insisting that the One Ring went into the sea long ago, so they should all just forget about it?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he did.
[Puma] for the wearers of the 3 rings.the one has an especial power
[Puma] cirdan and elrond had 2 of the 3
[thefoolishtook] yeah darover, but wasnt that so he could search for it without anyone taking too much notice
[ElenGalad] How long a time period did Isildur have the ring?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, gotcha, Demosthenes. God, no, he was a terrible keeper of the ring.
[Demosthenes] ElenGalad: a year or so?
[miriel] since he died: yes. give the ring to elrond and he would have been corrupted (eventually) =] great loss
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[ElenGalad] Thanks
[Goldberry] And gandalf had the third ring
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: so what would have been a better option (apart from destroying it)?
[Puma] isildur had the ring a bit over 2 yrs
[Darkover] Sure, thefoolishtook, but I brought that up as a way of saying that the Council did discuss the One Ring, but Saruman kind of stonewalled any further discussion
[Puma] no goldberry
[Darkover] night, Anameleth
[Puma] galadriel had the 3rd ring
[Puma] cirdan gave his to gandlaf 1000 yrs later
[thefoolishtook] ahh okay, i follow you now darkover
[Goldberry] Oops!
[Demosthenes] Isildur said to Elendur at the Gladden Fields that it was beyond his power and should go to the keppers of the three. Is that really any better?
[ChristineGolden] There was only one ‘good’ option, Demosthenes, and that was to destroy it. But half of ME would have been a better guardian than Isildur.
[Demosthenes] But you can’t destroy it.
[Darkover] I think the problem was that there really was no one who could be an adequate “guardian” for the One Ring, Dmeosthenes
[Puma] well…..they would not have taken the one….but perhaps it was not so easy to destroy.who could they send
[Demosthenes] Just leave it in the dirt? is that possible either?
[Puma] then sauron would still arise
[thefoolishtook] How about galadriel, do you think in the second age she would of taken it as opposed to letting frodo go in the third?
[miriel] I disagree: anyone was a bad keeper. It was best that it was not kept. Thus, isildur was perfect
[Lasak] wasn’t that what happened in a way
[Darkover] Is that truly fair, Chris? After all, Isildur doesn’t seem to have tried to use It much, even at the last.
[Demosthenes] miriel: logic would seem to indicate that?
[ChristineGolden] If the ring had been ‘given’ to someone else, perhaps that person would have had the humility to destroy it.
[Puma] isildur never used it
[Darkover] Leaving It in the dirt would have been a horrible idea, Demosthenes
[Darkover] It wouldn’t have stayed in the dirt
[Demosthenes] So what Isildur did was better than nothing?
[miriel] doubt that, the only one to give away the ring was bilbo. Isildur would not have done that
[ChristineGolden] Isildur suffered from Tolkien’s #1 sin, Darkover: pride.
[Puma] Darkover…..i am convinced now you get this topic well
[Darkover] I think being able to give the Ring to someone else would have been almost as difficult as destroying It.
[Lasak] I think what isildur did was better
[Lasak] he moved the ring to place where it wouldn’t be found for ages
[Demosthenes] Darkover: this seems likely too.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, I think so. Isildur was not a good guardian for the Ring, but who would have been? No one.
[miriel] darkover. like I said, agreed
[Darkover] Not intentionally, Lasak
[Lasak] no
[Lasak] but he did
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] true Lasak
[ChristineGolden] Isildur lost the ring in a river, Lasak; it wasn’t deliberate.
[thefoolishtook] but all hiding the ring for 100′s of years did was allowed sauron to rebuild
[thefoolishtook] 1000′s of years*
[Darkover] I mean, if we are discussing “what ifs,” an orc might have taken the Ring from Isildur when he was killed. Just pure good luck/Providence that didn’t happen.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: true. but it allowed prosperity in the meantime? does that outweigh the negatives?
[Darkover] It also allowed the good guys to rest up, so to speak.
[Puma] now in the great music….eru was said to make things anew that were unforseen….had hobbits evolved on purpose by eru.so they could handle the ring better than others?
[thefoolishtook] hmmm, so it allowed the free peoples to rebuild well enough to defeat sauron entirely demosthenes?
[miriel] btw, very interesting: hobbits seem to resist the ring (frodo and bilbo ) but gollum fell to its lure immediately
[Demosthenes] That too, Darkover. Like IU said earlier. the last alliance seems to have been a pyrric victory.
[Darkover] An intriguing thought, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Did it really allow prosperity in the meantime, Demosthenes? By the LotR, the West was in rapid decline.
[Puma] ty Darkover
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: not many empires last a thousand years. let alone three thousand.
[miriel] and according to gandalf, gollum was a hobbit… more or less
[miriel] so puma: I disagree
[Demosthenes] By human standards, Gondor in particular can claim an extraordinary longevity.
[Puma] even facing death.isildur knew saving the shards of anrsil was of great import….anotheer act of great forsight
[Demosthenes] And a great deal of that is because of Isildur.
[Lasak] I’m leaving now
[Demosthenes] seeya lasak!
[Puma] narsil
[ChristineGolden] I’m not talking about empire, Demosthenes, just prosperity, trade, communications, etc.
[Lasak] seeya
[Darkover] Yeah, Miriel, but I think Gollum was kind of a nasty type, anyway. I know he was being influenced by the Ring when he first saw It, but it didn’t take much for him to murder poor Smeagol, who was his best bud and relative. Contrast that with Bilbo sparing the life of Gollum, someone he didn’t know, who had been trying to harm him.
[miriel] now, wether Bilbo and frodo were “evolved on purpose” is another matter
[thefoolishtook] elves managed to maintain a standard but with the loss of arnor and the northern kingdoms?
[Demosthenes] puma: he should have given them to elendur.
[Darkover] bye, Lasak
[Puma] why Demz
[miriel] indeed Darkover, but he was a hobbit, so if the “hobbits resist the ring” was true, it should not have happened
[Isildursbane19] If I remember correctly, Puma, when the ainur and eru witnessed the music with the discord, they basically saw Arda in its entirety, including its creation, life and destruction, so yes, I would think, he did create them knowingly, or maybe not the race as a whole, but Bilbo and Frodo and Sam for sure
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: yes Arnor decayed more quickly. Possibly in part because it was the kingdom of Isildur’s direct heirs. And Sauron had especial malice toward them.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, Gollum was already corrupted before he took the ring.
[Demosthenes] puma: well, elendur might have survived then.
[Puma] no.the vision of the future was not complete
[Darkover] But Gollum’s resistance took a different form, Miriel, but it was no less resistance. He survived for centuries with the Ring eating at him, but he did not turn into a wraith, as a Man would have done
[Puma] i dont think so Demz
[miriel] very good point Darkover
[Darkover] and he endured torture and terror at the hands of Mordor, all because he loved and hated the Ring
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] excellent Darkover!!!!
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma (blushes)
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[thefoolishtook] haha its a very good point darkover
[Puma] also there was still a small window to a good gollum….he did have that 1 point of near reprentence
[Darkover] ty, thefoolishtook. You folks will turn my head.
[miriel] that one makes me so sad, puma
[Goldberry] Me too
[Puma] jrr said it was saddest moment in book
[miriel] I agree
[Puma] i do also
[Darkover] Yes. It was close, and it was sad, but nasty little cynic that I am, I doubt if Gollum’s repentance, even if carried out, would have lasted for long.
[miriel]
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Puma] not with sam around
[Puma] but sam had also to emain himself
[Darkover] Well, I agree with Sam about Gollum.
[Puma] remain
[ChristineGolden] Or as Reagan said, Darkover, trust but verify.
[thefoolishtook] call me harsh, but i’ve never really got the whole pity for gollum thing
[Darkover] Good advice, Chris
* Puma is smiling….this is a great discourse today
* miriel is yawning … great, but very late
[Puma] aww
[Goldberry] Thefoolishtook you are called harsh
[miriel] I think I shall go get some sleep
[Puma] you are a trooper miriel
[miriel] Night all!
[Puma] sweet dreams
[thefoolishtook] ah goldberry, im sorry!
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, the Ring had done a job on him. Of the two, Smeagol was the lucky one, even if he did get murdered.
[Goldberry] Night mirie
[Darkover] But as I said, I think he was a nasty type to begin with. His bad luck doesn’t change that.
[Darkover] Night, Miriel
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, I’m harsh, too, because I never felt sorry for Gollum. I’ve never understood the whole “Gollum fan club” thing.
[thefoolishtook] i know he’s had a horrid life and it wasnt his fault, but still, ive never really felt any pity for him
[Puma] yet as bad as gollum was.he kept his word to frodo.to never let sauron get the ring
[Darkover] Lord, no. Feeling a bit of pity for him doesn’t mean I want to form a fan club for him.
[Demosthenes] One other thing I’d like to raise briefly. Twice Sauron exerts himself (via his chief minions) against Isildur’s descendents/legacies. Once to destroy Arnor, once to take and then corrupt Minas Ithil. (the corruption thing seems especially vindictive).
[ChristineGolden] Well, I doubt that was deliberate, Puma.
[thefoolishtook] hi five ChristineGolden!
[Goldberry] I agree dark over
[Darkover] Well, Puma, I suspect that wasn’t a matter of trying to keep his word, but because he didn’t want Sauron or anyone other than Gollum himself to have it
[Puma] it was the pity of bilbo and frodo for gollum that saved middle earth
[Darkover] I think “vindictive” is Sauron’s middle name, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] i get that Puma, but on an emotional level, ive never really felt sorry for the character
[Puma] i agree Darkover.sort of lefthanded keeping his word….but word kept none the less
* Vince (Mibbit@torn-15B97E0D.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, but Isildur seems to have earned an especial ire.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] isildur took the ring
[Demosthenes] His chief foe and bugbear almost.
[Puma] isildur kept the kingship alive with the tree
[Demosthenes] isuldur saved the white tree. isildur established arnor and gondor.
[thefoolishtook] i’m talking to much about gollum anyway, not isildur, do we need to pull it back on topic?
[Darkover] Well, he did cut Sauron’s greatest toy/tool/weapon off Sauron’s hand, and knock out his power for a long time. Sauron’s not likely to forgive and forget.
[ChristineGolden] Well, first of all, he had to regain his strength, rebuild Barad-dur, etc., Demosthenes. By then, he probably thought that the heirs of Isildur had faded into inconsequence.
[Demosthenes] I guess key historical figures do attract powerful enemies.
[Demosthenes] In that context, it makes sense.
[Puma] it was the 1st sight of a surviving heir of isildur that drove sauron to attack too soon in the war of the ring
[Darkover] Plus, all the things you mentioned that Isildur did, would have displeased Sauron immensely
[Goldberry] Also cut off one of his fingers
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes. Sauron would fear the powerful, and Isildur was a very powerful enemy
[Puma] in the palantir i am referring
[ChristineGolden] Imo, Isildur is a tool Tolkien used, a means to explain how the ring was lost by Sauron.
[Demosthenes] And any surviving symbol of Isildur would be a slight against Sauron.
[Puma] after sauron saw an heir of isildur.he did not pay atention to all the things he should have
[Vince] how did the white tree of Gondor save the bloodline, Puma? You said Isuldor kept the line alive through the tree. I thought the tree was only a symbol of sorta.
[Darkover] As well as a big worry to the Dark Lord
[Vince] *sorts
[Puma] the tree was a symbol.but when no tree.there can be no king
[Demosthenes] oh, another thought, Luthien compelled Sauron’s surrender at Tol in Guaroth. And Isildur and Aragorn are descendents of Luthien.
[Puma] yes!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] So it goes back even further.
[Puma] yes!!!!!
[Darkover] And I suspect Sauron has a *very* long memory
[Demosthenes] that’s about 6000 years of being pwned.
[Puma] great point Demz!!!!!
[Demosthenes] No wonder he was so cranky.
[Puma] and gady Vince…..did not see you were here
[Goldberry] It’s past 1 am, I am going to have to leave you all
[Vince] Hello Puma. I didn’t wanna distract the discussion by introducing myself.
[Darkover] hi, Vince
[Demosthenes] Gnight goldberry!
[Puma] sweet dreams goldberry
[ChristineGolden] Whoa! Sleep well, Goldberry.
[Darkover] goodnight, Goldberry
[Goldberry] Cya
[Demosthenes] Hmmm. We seem to have come to halt. Any points we’ve missed?
[Darkover] Don’t believe so
[Puma] saurons hate from isildur could be examined after the palantir….sauron lost his concentration
[Darkover] Excellent discussion
[ChristineGolden] The tole Isildur played in regard to Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] role
[Demosthenes] Was Isildur an inspiration for Aragorn?
[Puma] yeah.we did a great job on this topic
[Darkover] There is that. That increased Aragorn’s claim to the throne
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, a 2-year old pried off a few keys on my laptop.
[Vince] not according to the movie
[Puma] oh my Chrsitine
[Darkover] The movie was entertaining, Chris, but not always canon
[Demosthenes] He did want to see the Argonath. So maybe Isildur was an inspiration.
[Darkover] Sorry, Vince, not Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s okay, Puma, the funeral is monday.
[Vince] in the movie, Isildur holds Aragorn back
[Puma] the movie got a lot wrong Vince
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was both an inspiration and a warning to Aragorn.
[ChristineGolden] Puma.
[Puma] thats why we read books Vince
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah that’s probably true. More often he says he is Elendil’s heir too.
[Puma] Exactly Christine
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[ChristineGolden] He showed Aragorn the heights to which Gondor could rise and how far a king could fall/be corrupted by power.
[Puma] Aragorn has to be elendils heir….since gondor had all ready excluded isildurs heir
[Demosthenes] puma: there s that
[Puma] and it seems in jrr once a law is made.its forever
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but it was Isildur who was not able to overcome the lure of the ring, Puma, and that had to weigh on Aragorn’s mind.
[Puma] agreed Chrsitine
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: which we kinda see in Bree.
[Puma] but in his travels aragorn had to see the will of sauron at work…so knew a good bit of saurons mind
[ChristineGolden] Psychologically speaking, you have to wonder if Isildur’s “example” didn’t buttress Aragorn’s ability to resist the ring: “No, I will be different….”
[Puma] which aragorn did use to turn the tide of war
[Puma] it did Christine
[Darkover] and Aragorn felt a degree of responsibility for the fate of the Ring because of his ancestor. He said something about how it was appropriate that “Isildur’s Heir should help repair Isildur’s fault,” as I recall.
[Puma] do you not think aragorn might have been afraid of that moment in bree
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think there’s something in that. he seems to have been very aware of his ancestors .. “isildur’s heir should repair isildur’s fault…”
[Demosthenes] oh. hah. gmta.
[Darkover] Afraid, no. but that was his moment of temptation, and he passed, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Yes, that’s what I meant, Demosthenes… and good point, Darkover.
[Darkover] So, have we covered everything?
[Demosthenes] i think so!
[Puma] would there have been a 3rd age without isildur….makes me wonder
[ChristineGolden] Probably not, but it’ll do.
[Demosthenes] puma: it would have been very different.
[Puma] yeah.i think we did great today
[ChristineGolden] Sure, Puma, Tolkien would have just written a different version.
[Demosthenes] Next weekend we’ll be visiting Helm’s Deep btw.
[Puma] cool beans
[Puma] short chapter
[Demosthenes] yeah. i like short chapters.
[Darkover] Back to the book
[ChristineGolden] brb, somebody’s fooling around the fence. gotta get my gun and see what’s going on.
[Demosthenes] Back to the book!
[Puma] enjoyed this great today people
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone. Great discussion.
Session Close: Sun May 26 09:27:12 2013

Because I’ve read a lot and thought a lot about Tolkien and his invented world, and I’ve engaged in a lot of debates about the quality and accuracy of the movies, I feel entitled to say things like, “Well, there are parts he would have loved and parts he would have hated.”  But that’s not Tolkien talking. That’s me. The author died long before The Fellowship of the Ring was released in 2001, so I’ll never know how he might have reacted to the Jackson films, and neither will anyone else.

The nearest we can come to Tolkien’s assessment might be that of his son, Christopher Tolkien, who did not give the Jackson movies a positive review.  “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25,” Christopher told the French newspaper Le Monde in July 2012.

There’s a good chance Christopher’s father would have agreed with his son’s (rather unfair, in my opinion) assessment. It’s well known that, of Tolkien’s four children, Christopher was the one most drawn to his father’s creation.  “As strange as it may seem, I grew up in the world he created,” Christopher (who is 88) told Le Monde. “For me, the cities of The Silmarillion are more real than Babylon.”

As a boy, Christopher, “huddled for warmth by the study stove, would listen motionless while his father told him” tales from his imaginary world, Humphrey Carpenter wrote in his biography of Tolkien. In his teens and twenties, Christopher was “deeply involved with the writing of ‘The Lord of the Rings’. He had read the first chapters in manuscript, and had drawn maps and made fair copies of the text for his father,” Carpenter wrote in The Inklings.  When Christopher eventually joined the Inklings (the informal literary group that included Tolkien and C.S. Lewis), “it grew to be the custom that he, rather than his father, should read aloud any new chapters of The Lord of the Rings to the company, for it was generally agreed that he made a better job of it than did Tolkien himself,” Carpenter wrote.

Christopher Tolkien

So Christopher, clearly, knows The Lord of the Rings and his father’s thoughts about it more intimately than anyone else alive. With that in mind, it may be safe to assume Tolkien’s view would have aligned with Christopher’s, and he would therefore have hated the Jackson movies.

Then again, father and son don’t seem to have shared the same opinion about whether or not the book should be turned into a movie – any movie – at all. Christopher seems to think that The Lord of the Rings is so layered and complex that no film version could do it justice.  “My own position is that The Lord Of The Rings is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form,” Christopher stated in December 2001, just before the first Jackson movie hit theaters.

Tolkien himself, however, was quite willing to see his book turned into film – under the right circumstances. In fact, he sold the movie rights for The Lord of the Rings (along with The Hobbit) to United Artists in 1969, according to Le Monde.

Tolkien was first approached about a Lord of the Rings movie in 1957, when three American businessmen proposed an animated version, according to Carpenter’s biography. “I should welcome the idea of an animated motion picture, with all the risk of vulgarization; and that quite apart from the glint of money, though on the brink of retirement that is not an unpleasant possibility,” Tolkien wrote one of his publishers that year. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 198)

In regards to selling the film rights, Tolkien and his publishers came up with a “cash or kudos” policy, according to Carpenter. Tolkien put it this way: “Either very profitable terms indeed; or absolute author’s veto on objectionable features or alterations.” (Letter No. 202)

The 1957 proposal included some “really astonishingly good pictures (Rackham rather than Disney) and some remarkable colour photographs. They have apparently toured America shooting mountain and desert scenes that seem to fit the story,” Tolkien wrote (202).  But the synopsis of the proposed film they gave him was “on a lower level. In fact bad,” Tolkien wrote (202). Carpenter summarized the problems: “A number of names were consistently mis-spelt (Boromir was rendered ‘Borimor’), virtually all walking was dispensed with in the story and the Company of the Ring were transported everywhere on the backs of eagles, and the elvish waybread lembas was described as a ‘food concentrate’.”

Tolkien’s overall problem with the script was that it was “a compression with resultant over-crowding and confusion, blurring of climaxes, and general degradation: a pull-back towards more conventional ‘fairy-stories’. People gallop about on Eagles at the least provocation; Lorien becomes a fairy-castle with ‘delicate minarets’, and all that sort of thing.” (Letter No. 201)  But as bad as it was, he was still willing to “play ball, if they are open to advice.” (201)

In these letters, published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, we get a rare glimpse of Tolkien the (surprisingly shrewd) businessman. The book also gives extracts from Tolkien’s comments on the 1957 film synopsis (Letter No. 210). The synopsis itself isn’t included, but Tolkien’s “review” sheds some light on its contents – and is probably the closest we’ll come to his vision of how The Lord of the Rings should be filmed.

The author’s comments also give an indirect glimpse of what he might have thought of Peter Jackson’s films.  Tolkien’s “review” of the 1957 synopsis dwelled on one scene, from The Fellowship of the Ring, in particular: the Weathertop confrontation of Aragorn and the four hobbits with the Black Riders.  “I have spent some time on this passage,” he wrote, “as an example of what I find too frequent to give me ‘pleasure or satisfaction’: deliberate alteration of the story, in fact and significance, without any practical or artistic object.”

He gave examples of what displeased him:

“Strider does not ‘Whip out a sword’ in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken … Why then make him do so here, in a contest that was explicitly not fought with weapons?”

“The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence. Aragorn does not blanch. The riders draw slowly in on foot in darkness, and do not ‘spur’. There is no fight. Sam does not ‘sink his blade into the Ringwraith’s thigh’, nor does his thrust save Frodo’s life.”

“A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire, with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows – until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed – would seem to me far more impressive than yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings …”

I could spend a lot of time laying out the similarities and differences of the 1957 and 2001 versions of the Weathertop scene, but you’re probably replaying the Jackson version in your head right now, and you don’t need my help.  I will say this: Aragorn is too much the beefcake in Jackson’s version of this scene, swinging his big sword and throwing his flaming torches at the Black Riders, who run away like screaming babies. But I’ll side with Jackson on one point: It was kind of strange for Aragorn to be carrying a broken sword, which he did at that point in the book. Besides being a priceless heirloom, the Sword that was Broken was rather useless in a fight (which Aragorn acknowledged). Why not leave it in Rivendell until it’s ready to be re-forged, and carry a workable sword in the meantime?

Tolkien also addressed the overuse of the Eagles in the 1957 version: “I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale,” he wrote. “‘Nine Walkers’ and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed.”  At least Jackson didn’t commit that unpardonable sin.

The 1957 synopsis leaves out a scene that Tolkien considered extremely important, a scene that Jackson left in: “The disappearance of the temptation of Galadriel is significant. Practically everything having moral import has vanished from the synopsis.”

Tolkien was, however, OK with cutting out some parts of the book, if necessary. He even suggested cutting out the battle of the Hornburg (Helm’s Deep), “which is incidental to the main story; and there would be this additional gain that we are going to have a big battle (of which as much should be made as possible), but battles tend to be too similar; the big one would gain by having no competitor.”  (By the “big one”, the author must have been referring to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in The Return of the King.)

Jackson didn’t cut the battle of Helm’s Deep. Oh no. It’s the big set piece of his second movie. Whether or not that diminished the big battle in his third movie is debatable.

Then there’s the handling of Saruman’s end. The 1957 synopsis cut out the “end of the book, including Saruman’s proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die,” Tolkien wrote. “Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs is the way of the sort of person he had become.”  If Saruman needed to be tidied up, Tolkien wrote, “Gandalf should say something to this effect: as Saruman collapses under the excommunication: ‘Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!’”

Seems like Jackson’s shorter version of “The Return of the King”, the version that ran in theaters (as opposed to the extended edition), handled “Sharkey’s End” in a manner Tolkien would have preferred.

Despite his distaste for the 1957 synopsis, Tolkien was still willing to “play ball”, as he wrote. So why was that version never made into a movie?

In his biography, Carpenter gave an explanation: “There did not seem to be much prospect of kudos in this, and as there was not much cash either, negotiations were not continued.”

Like I said at the beginning, we’ll never know what Tolkien would have thought of the Jackson movies; but based on what we’ve just read, it’s safe to say he would have preferred them over the 1957 proposal. And not to sound too vulgar, but there probably would have been more cash involved as well…

===================

Maedhros is a guest writer and his views do not necessarily reflect those of TheOneRing.net. Maedhros lives in Grand Rapids, MI. He’s been hooked on Tolkien since he was 11, when he opened the first page of “The Two Towers” and read about Aragorn tracking a hobbit; and Boromir’s death scene, of course. 

Hobson’s blog in ‘The American Spectator’ is an interesting piece, giving the subject careful thought.  She suggests that there are core differences between the two writers, both in the origins of their creations and in their perceptions of morality.  You can see what she had to say – and perhaps draw your own conclusions – here.

Catlin is also the artist for a brand new illustrated edition of The Hobbit, which will be released this Fall and will contain 150 new, colour illustrations.  More visual goodies from Middle-earth!  You can preorder both the book and the calendar at Amazon – click on the links below!

[Pre-order Tolkien Calendar 2014]   [Pre-order new Illustrated Hobbit]

Thanks to ringer spy Bomby for the heads up!

Q: Hello. I have one, but I’m sure that you’ll get it easy enough. It has become evident to me that me George Lucas used two names for two of the places in Star Wars movies (the first three released). Also, I have a question that I’m hoping you might be able to answer. I have read The Lord of the Rings (sadly) only once. I am 15 and currently working on The Silmarillion, while my friends read my copies of LOTR. I’m having problems with names and locations in The Silmarillion. Is Beleriand the same as Middle-earth? I know that that is a simple question for you, but I frankly have no clue. Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance,

–Niles “Dargon” Armstrong

A: Yes, Beleriand was originally created as part of Middle-earth. Technically speaking, the lands of the Valar, or Valinor (a.k.a. “The Undying Lands”), are all found across the sea to the west. Any landmasses on the east of Belegaer, The Great Sea, are considered part of Middle-earth.

In the First Age, the earliest settlements of Elves, Dwarves, Ents, and Men were in Beleriand, which stretched from the coast as far east as the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin). If you look at the map in The Silmarillion you’ll see this mountain range on the furthest east. Now look at any edition of The Lord of the Rings and you’ll see the Ered Luin on the far western edge of the land, bordering the coast.

This is due to the events that brought about the end of the First Age and irrevocably changed the face of the land. During the War of Wrath a great host of Valinor approached the stronghold of Morgoth to destroy him in a final confrontation. When the great towers of Thangorodrim were smashed, the entire continent was thrown into a cataclysm. The breaking of Thangorodrim laid bare the pits of Angband, and the Great Sea engulfed everything. Nearly one million square miles of land were submerged. A new coastline appeared at the Blue Mountains, becoming the more familiar area just west of the Shire where the Grey Havens would be founded centuries later.

So there you are. Beleriand was once truly part of Middle-earth, but the epic and certainly tragic events imagined by Tolkien changed all of it. Belegaer would later be called “The Sundering Sea.”

A while back one reader asked about finding a good map of Númenor. We strongly recommend “The Atlas of Middle-Earth” (1991, Houghton Mifflin) by Karen Wynn Fonstad. For those readers trying to wrap their brain around the many places mentioned in The Silmarillion, take heart! Tremendous light is shed on the material recounted there, and many nebulous things are made clear.

As for your query about George Lucas… who’s he? Never heard of him. The only filmmaker I know of is Peter Jackson.

- Quickbeam

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Q: I’m Portuguese, so I’ve read the Portuguese version of O Hobbit (The Hobbit). In my version, in Chapter 3, on the third page, just before the song, it is written:

‘Cheira a Elfos,’ pensou Bilbo. —

‘It’s elf smell,’ thought Bilbo, (or something like that).

If Gandalf, or the Dwarves, never mentioned the elves, and when Gandalf, after the troll event, talked about Rivendell and Elrond never saying that there were elves: how did Bilbo know that there were elves? Could he really smell or detect their presence? It’s just an error?

–Ângelo

A: Well, if there’s one thing you really can’t miss a mile off it’s the smell of Elves in the morning. One good whiff will clear up any sinus problem, I guarantee it. But seriously, Ângelo, the translation of your version of The Hobbit is not mistaken. In the original Allen & Unwin edition, the English text says:

‘Hmmm! it smells like elves!’ thought Bilbo, and he looked up at the stars.

And no, there is no earlier mention that Rivendell was a community of elves, or that Bilbo had ever met them. You could easily assume that, like Samwise, our dear Bilbo had never laid eyes on an elf his whole life. But if you look at the next page after the elves complete their song, it says:

He loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too.

And later:

Elves know a lot and are wondrous folk for news, and know what is going on among the peoples of the land, as quick as water flows, or quicker.

So he had seen them in the Shire, probably in the vicinity of Bywater, I would guess, especially if the elven-folk were traveling through on their way to the Havens. We can glean from the above that Bilbo must have had an actual conversation with an Elf, at least once, to learn news of other happenings beyond the Shire’s borders:

As to what they actually smell like? Well, I don’t know. But there are several places in Professor Tolkien’s work where elves and all things elvish are strongly connected to flora and fauna. There are passages that lovingly describe the valley of Rivendell, its fragrant woods and “green pleasant places.” And when the Fellowship arrives in Lórien, great attention is paid to the vibrant plant-life and especially the mallorn trees. Remember Cerin Amroth?

‘Here ever bloom the winter flowers in the unfading grass: the yellow elanor, and the pale niphredil.’

With this literary device, the reader makes a connection with elves and the symbolism of green, living, growing things. Maybe it’s not actually the elves that Bilbo smells, but his memory of fragrant valleys and pine trees is recurrently matched with the fair elven race… and our memory is too.

- Quickbeam

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Q: If Sauron can defeat all his enemies if he has the power of the Ring, why on earth did he make such a blatant tactical error and put a lot of that power into something which can be taken from him?

–Nebel

A: The most obvious answer is that without the existence of the Ring, Sauron would not have a reliable method of controlling the other rings (especially the Elven rings) and, through them, their wearers and their actions. Sauron’s power in the Ring is different from what it would be outside the Ring. Outside the Ring (with his full power restored to himself), Sauron is a mighty spirit with far sight and great power, but he still has to defeat his enemies the old-fashioned ways: trickery and war. He tricked the Men of Númenor into listening to him until they were under his sway; then later, he tricked the Elves of Hollin into listening to him until they showed him all they knew about ring-making. You can’t control other people unless you have soldiers with weapons around to kill or make an example of any that don’t obey, so despite the power of a Maiar, Sauron would have had no actual control over others without war. It’s a chain: Sauron controls a few by threats or promises of reward, who then turn around and do Sauron’s dirty work in controlling others for him. Same thing with Saruman: he had the power of a Maiar, but had to have a bunch of other creatures around to do his dirty work. But Sauron coveted not only control over other peoples but over their works and powers and lands, as well. Tolkien never spells out what all the Three Rings were capable of, but he gives the impression that many of the special qualities of Rivendell and Lothlórien were created and maintained by the power of the Elven rings. Sauron never touched those, but he learned all about their forging and actually helped in the forging of the Seven and the Nine, so that he learned all about the power that was imbued in all the rings, giving him the knowledge needed to make a Ring that would control all the others, control their wearers and their creations. However, the power in this Ring, the power to control the others, had to come from somewhere. So Sauron put a great deal of his own will and power into the forging, transforming his power into a specific channel: that of controlling the other Rings. He assumed he could always keep this Ring with him, thereby having access to all of his power AND controlling the other rings. I guess he didn’t reckon on the Last Alliance. =)

- Anwyn

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Q: What are the Barrow Wights? We are never really given a clear description of them (at least as far as I could figure out). It almost seems like the sort of thing that we should have prior knowledge of, but this is the only place I’ve ever seen them.

This was the major mystery that I was left with after finishing the series.

–Terry O’Briant

A: First let us examine the etymology of the actual word, Barrow Wight. My fellow Green Books staffperson Turgon (who is held high among the Wise) shared the following with me:

A barrow is an earthmound marking a grave (from Middle English “berw,” Anglo-Saxon “beorg”). But “wight” is also an archaic word, meaning 1) a human being, or 2) a preternatural or supernatural being. It derives from Middle English “wight” and Anglo-Saxon “wiht,” meaning “creature, animal, person, thing.” So of course the terms have a perfect resonance for Tolkien’s use of them…

Put the two together and you have “supernatural creature of the grave.” This is a shining example of Professor Tolkien’s erudition with these ancient languages.

The Barrow-downs were, as you know, dome-shaped hills crowned with monoliths and ringed with white stones. But we need to look closely at the history of the surrounding lands, as it yields more lucid information about the nefarious Barrow Wights. I will try to keep this “history lesson” as succinct as possible, for there is much to tell. What follows is most germane to your question:

Early in the Third Age, the race of Men (the Dúnedain) held power in two main Kingdoms, Arnor and Gondor. In the north, Arnor was split into three principalities: 1) Arthedain, 2) Rhudaur, and 3) Cardolan. This triad of the Dúnedain had a capital city at Annúminas (and later Fornost). There was constant strife between them and the Witch-King of Angmar, who reigned from his cold seat in Carn Dûm.

The power of the Witch-King was undoubtedly great–he was chief of the Nazgûl, after all. He took into his service Hillmen of the North, and a variety of Orcs and other foul creatures. Not the least of which were the demonic spirits that would eventually become the Barrow Wights, but I’ll get to that in a minute.

Many battles were fought over the centuries between the Dúnedain and the Witch-King, and Elrond himself makes mention of them during the high Council in The Fellowship of the Ring:

“In the North … the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city of Annúminas beside Lake Evendim fell into ruin; and the heirs of Valandil removed and dwelt at Fornost on the high North Downs, and that now too is desolate. … For the folk of Arnor dwindled, and their foes devoured them, and their lordship passed, leaving only green mounds in the grassy hills.”

Those ‘green mounds’ he speaks of are the burial mounds the four hobbits passed through only a few chapters earlier. The men of Cardolan used the fields of Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrow-downs) as a refuge and also as a burial field for their fallen kings and warriors. The white monoliths marked the gravesites of many of the fallen.

When the Witch-King was ultimately defeated, he fled into the shadows of dusk and vanished from the north. Many tortured servants and spirits also fled from Angmar after his power was broken, no longer having their lord to rule them (or enslave them, if you prefer).

There were also demons, now disembodied and wandering aimlessly, looking for other bodies in which their evil spirits could dwell. And so that’s how I speculate the Wights came into being, as they traveled southward from Angmar to the Barrow-downs and inhabited the bones and jeweled armour of the ancient dead.

The Wights could crush the will of an unwary traveler. Apparently they wielded spells that hypnotized the victim, rendering him mindless, and luring him into the treasure tombs below ground. As you’ll recall from “Fog on the Barrow-downs,” the Barrow Wight laid the hobbits on a stone altar and bound them with gold chains. He draped them in the pale cloth and precious jewelry of the long-dead kings, then readied to take their lives with a sacrificial sword.

It certainly was a good thing Frodo did not succumb to the spell as readily as Sam, Merry, and Pippin. He found his courage and his bearing, asserting himself without the aid of the Ring.

As Tom Bombadil knew all too well, daylight would be the undoing of the Barrow Wight. Once a stone chamber was broken open, light would pour in and the Wight would fade, perishing before the sun. Gandalf would later say of these events:

“That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all.”

And indeed that much is true. With no Wizard or Ranger to help them, the hobbits were in their greatest peril at the hands of such an ancient evil. In the moment where Merry returns to consciousness, the golden circlet around his head falls over his face, and it somehow brings out the voice of the dead man who was originally buried with it:

“Of course, I remember!” he said. “The Men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!”

Having a good understanding of Arnor and the history of the Dúnedain makes many of these small details more vibrant as you read. For the best information, you should turn to the Professor himself. Read Appendix A, “Annals of the Kings and Rulers,” especially Section I, “The Númenorean Kings,” Subsection (iii), “Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur.” As you pore over these pages you’ll gain a greater understanding of the scope of Tolkien’s world. I’m also certain that you’ll appreciate Aragorn much more, as his background and lineage is made clear.

- Quickbeam

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Q: Could Gandalf have slain the Witch-king? The reason I ask is because when Gandalf is discussing the Witch-king with Denethor, Denethor asks Gandalf if he met a foe he could not match. To which Gandalf replied, Well if the old prophecy be true then he will not fall by the hand of Man. Now Gandalf was a Maiar and not a man. He may have been in the form of a man but he could use spells and he had a hidden power it says. Or maybe Gandalf just meant male. But if that were the case how did Merry help slay the Witch-king and Merry was a hobbit? I know he didn’t deal the deathblow, but his strike is said to have unknit the Witch-king’s flesh. So was this a blunder? Thanks for your time.

- Gandalf

ALSO: related to the above question:

Here’s one that’s bothered me for a while: How is it, if only specially-wrought Elvish and Westernesse blades are any use against the Nazgul, t hat Eowyn was able to kill one (the Witch-King, no less) with her plain old Rohan sword? And with a blow to a “spiritual” area no less, the unseen head. Thanks for your time.

- Todd M. Aglialoro

A: I don’t think there was any blundering involved here. The quotations go like this: “Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?” “It might be,” Gandalf answered softly. “But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him.” (RotK.) First of all, this means that Gandalf himself did not know whether or not he could have slain the Witch-king in a one-on-one. “Hidden from the Wise” includes “hidden from Gandalf,” and Gandalf did not know. He did not know if he was overmatched, because it was not his time to face the Witch-king. That comes later, in the gate of Minas Tirith, and although they do not fight, Gandalf is able to drive him away because the wraith cannot claim victory yet; Rohan shows up to contest the field. As we see later, of course, “not by the hand of man” simply means “by the hand of woman and hobbit.” For myself, I believe that a one-on-one contest between Gandalf and the Witch-king would have been almost as iffy as the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf and the Balrog are both Maiar, and the Witch-king began as a normal human, but the ring he wore, one of the Nine, gave him power approaching the spiritual realm. So there is really no telling. I believe Gandalf was aware that the fate of the Witch-king did not rest with him, and that’s why he responded to Denethor as he did. But also he didn’t know with whom the fate actually *did* rest. As we see later, the Witch-king was so off his guard that there was no actual fight. He believed he was invincible to anything currently on the field, and probably did not realize there were those on the other side who were not men, but hobbits and women.

“‘Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.’

‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’

… but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.”

We all know what happened next. After Eowyn manages to dispatch the beast, Merry gets in one for the Shire at the wraith’s knee, and the very unexpectedness of the stroke breaks the wraith’s concentration to the point where his will no longer holds as steady, and Eowyn is able to drive her sword into what’s left of his power, shattering it. So, I believe that A) Gandalf did not know at whose door the death of the Witch-king would be laid, and he didn’t know if he would be the winner in a fight with him. B) Eowyn’s sword, so far as we know, was a “plain old Rohan sword,” but don’t forget that Merry’s blade was “forged many long years ago by the Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord” (FotR.) It is clear to me that Merry’s stroke shattered the spells that allowed the Black Rider his cohesiveness of form and his concentration of will, and allowed Eowyn’s sword to demolish the center of his power, the spiritual head.

Q: Exactly who is Morgoth? How did he influence the would-be Dark Lord, Sauron?

-Cold Blue

A: Morgoth is another name for Melkor, mightiest among the Ainur before his fall. In the creation of the world by Eru, the One, Melkor was chief among his servants, the Ainur, but his mind began to stray out of the will of Iluvatar. He wished to control the free peoples for his own ends, and wanted to create beings who would serve and be controlled by him, and not be free to serve Iluvatar or to pursue their own wills. His lust for domination became so great that eventually his former brothers and sisters, the Valar, Ainur that had taken up residence in the world to look over it, made war upon him, chained him in the Void, and named him Morgoth, so that he would no longer be a danger to the Children of Iluvatar. Sauron was a Maiar and the servant of Melkor. His evil influence contributed to Sauron’s downfall until he was no more than a shadow-copy of Morgoth, seeking to dominate others for his own ends.

- Anwyn

Update:

Several people have written in to clarify an error on my part, when I stated that the Valar fought and chained Melkor in the Void, naming him Morgoth. I basically lumped all the actions against Melkor together under the banner of the Valar, but in actuality… well, read my astute readers’ comments below!

–Anwyn

Hi. Sorry to bother you with such a silly trifle, but I wanted to clear something up for my own edification. You said in your response to “Cold Blue” that:

“the Valar…made war upon him [Melkor], chained him in the Void, and named him Morgoth.”

I thought that after Melkor killed Finwë and made off with the Silmarils, Fëanor in his rage named him Morgoth. I don’t have access to my copy of The Silmarillion as it’s on loan, so I can’t check this out. I just wondered what you thought.

If you’ve been bombarded with messages from snotty know-it-alls, please just consider me another and accept my apologies. I very much appreciate the breadth and depth of knowledge at the Green Books and always find the site enlightening.

Thanks for your efforts,

–Eric

Sorry to nitpick, but it was Fëanor who named him Morgoth, and not the Valar.

–Constantine Pappas

Just an amendment. Melkor was named Morgoth (“Black Enemy of the World”) not by the Valar but by Fëanor after Melkor slew his father Finwë and stole the Silmarils.

–Tormenderk

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The following event(s) took place in Middle-earth on May 30^th:

• Gandalf keeps the trolls arguing until dawn (1341)

May 30, 2941 (S.R. 1341)

1. Gandalf keeps the trolls arguing until dawn.

(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

“No sooner did Tom see Balin come into the light than he gave an awful howl. Trolls simply detest the very sight of dwarves (uncooked).”

(Tolkien, 1965 Ballantine, p. 49-53 Hobbit)

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Beyond the “Edge of the Wild”

By Tedoras — special to TheOneRing.net

One of the most interesting aspects of the Map of Wilderland included in The Hobbit is that very odd, rather portentous demarcation denoting the “Edge of the Wild.” Perhaps many of us, as kids, did not really note the significance of this line: it remained, to us, an added piece of mystery and awe. Certainly, the line retains those qualities today. However, now that I am older, the real meaning of this line is clearer (and, yes, although the Professor may not have wanted us to search for any “meaning” in this line—but to take at its “face value,” rather—there is yet merit in analyzing it. It was drawn for a reason on the map, mind you). Well, perhaps it is not “meaning” for which we look in this line, but rather its purpose to us, the readers, as we follow Bilbo into the Wild.

My interest in the Edge of the Wild peaked when I discovered a fantastic article by Patrick Brückner. In “Until the Dragon Comes,” Brückner focuses on the “real” and “fantastic,” and the reader’s perception of each, in Tolkien’s works; he notes that the mythopoeic role of dragons adds a “world-view that refers to an epic historic quality far beyond and different from the fairy tale elements of [Tolkien's] texts” (Brückner 101). In the vernacular, Brückner merely posits that the concept of a dragon inherently adds realism to the text because of the historic properties we prescribe to dragons. I am not going to go on much more about archetypal dragons and their roles in mythopoeic fantasy; rather, I would like to focus on how Brückner applies this principle to uncover the true nature of the “Edge of the Wild” line.

Brückner notes, wisely, that it was Tolkien himself who, by virtue of adding this demarcation to the map, declared the point of transition from the “real” to the “fantastic” in The Hobbit. While it may seem a daunting task to argue against the Professor’s ostensible intent, Brückner provides a good case against this line being the actual point of transition. There are two reasons why this line does not mark a shift: first, because Rivendell (i.e., “the boundary of the perilous realm”) is clearly to the right of the line and, second, because the incident with the trolls occurs to the line’s left (109). Brückner’s thesis is, therefore, that we can assign the right side of the Edge of the Wild to the realistic sphere, and that we can do so because of the role of a dragon, Smaug (118). As a dragon, Brückner says, Smaug adds a “relevant epic-historical context that grounds The Hobbit“—the concept of the dragon inherently makes The Hobbit “a text that refers to older texts and traditions… that possess historical significance” (117). Thus, because Smaug exists to the right of the Edge of the Wild—and because his existence as a dragon carries with it the realistic sphere—this demarcation cannot be a point of transition from “real” to “fantastic.”

While I agree with Brückner’s conclusion, I cannot say it is only the dragon that adds realism to the story. Just as Smaug brings with him the “epic-historical” notions of dragons which ground him in the “real” sphere (think of dragons throughout Western literature, from Beowulf on), so too do the other “mythological” creatures in the text. Because of our now long exposure to Orcs, Elves, Wargs, and other rather fantastical inhabitants of Middle-earth, we attribute to them, too, the very same historical context as Brückner says we do to Smaug. One of the reasons we attribute such realism to the dragon is, as Brückner notes, that it references other texts. Well, with the wealth of literature written by Tolkien himself or about his works, the same references are possible with Orcs or any other creature. To fans of Tolkien’s works, Orcs and Dwarves are as “real” as Smaug; we simply use Tolkien’s legendarium as the historiographic source. Thus, to a fan to whom the question of Smaug’s existence is not an issue, neither is the assumption that the other ostensibly “fantastic” creatures to the right of the Edge of the Wild are actually real. It is, in my opinion, the collective picture painted by the inclusion of all these now familiar “fantastic” aspects (to which we ourselves assign historic—albeit not explicitly “real” historic—weight), that result in our placing the right side of the line in the sphere of realism.

The most common sense case can be made for a demarcation placed East of Rivendell. The Misty Mountains mark the Western border of Rhovanion (Wilderland), so in that sense, such a line would really be the Edge of the Wild. However, that is of course not the case. So why, then, is the line placed where it is? The best scenario would be to ask the Professor himself (certainly this is one of those rather puzzling Middle-earth conundrums). Yet, I think I can fathom a guess, or at least one hypothesis. If you look at the Map of Wilderland, you’ll note that to the left of the demarcation, at the top, is written “Western Lands”, with an arrow naturally pointing West. If we hold Tolkien’s views on direction as canonical, then it makes sense for the East to be characterized as the “wild”, and altogether less fair than the West. Looking at a map of Eriador, such a conclusion seems plausible for, certainly, Wilderland lies far to the East.

Though simple, such a hypothesis is sound; anyone familiar with Middle-earth knows that to the East lies danger. And the aforementioned simplicity is also key. When deciding to draw this now infamous line, Tolkien would probably not have been debating the convoluted significance of such an action—rather, he would have been thinking of geography, as any cartographer is wont to do. Unfortunately, we may never know.

(All references to the text from: Brückner, Patrick. ” ‘…Until the Dragon Comes’: Tolkien’s Dragon-Motif as a Poetological Concept.” Tolkien’s Shorter Works: Essays of the Jena Conference 2007 (2008): 101-35. Walking Tree Publishers. Print.)