Tom Bombadil – Master and Mystery

By Tedoras

            Mention the name of Tom Bombadil around Tolkien fans and you are likely to spark a debate: a debate which, in Tolkien fandom, remains one of the most controversial and longest-argued of them all. This is perhaps because even the most fundamental questions surrounding Tom Bombadil are hard to answer; certainly, he is the most enigmatic character in The Lord of the Rings. Because of his uncanny nature, Tom Bombadil remains unique among all of Tolkien’s characters: as readers, we have the same understanding of him today as readers did when they first discovered him—that is to say, while scholarly works on Aragorn and Frodo abound, we are no closer to uncovering the true Tom Bombadil today than we were almost sixty years ago. In writing this article, I hope to accomplish a few goals: first, to present a thorough character study of Tom Bombadil (i.e. to lay out what we know); second, to discuss the main or popular theories in the debate (i.e. to lay out what we think); and third, to draw a conclusion (or, rather, an inference) as to the true nature of Tom Bombadil. Whether you are a veteran of this debate or are just now being exposed to it, I hope you will join me on a journey of herculean proportions to answer the most testing of all questions: who (or what) is Tom Bombadil?

As Saruman coldly says in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey: “Let us examine what we know.” Well, in this instance, that is very apt advice, indeed. Tom Bombadil, as many of you already know, stumbles upon the hobbits in the Old Forest in September of the Third Age 3018; he proceeds to rescue them from Old Man Willow, and then brings them along to his home deep in the Forest where he lives with his (also rather enigmatic) wife Goldberry. Tom is marked throughout these episodes with a light and cheery tone: from his colorful attire to his seemingly continual singing (and his ring a dong dillo’s). Yet Tom’s light-hearted nature—while ostensibly unwarranted, considering where he lives—is, in fact, well-attributed: he is a very, very old and wise man (or rather, being that looks like a man). We will, in time, return to look more closely at the importance and uniqueness of Tom’s personality, but for now, let us focus on his age.

Readers quickly become aware that Tom is a special character, even from our very first meeting with him. One of the reasons for this is his fantastic age. And while it may not surprise us that Tom is indeed old, just how old may. Frodo, who appears just as confused about Tom as we are as readers, asks him repeatedly, “Who are you?” (Tolkien 129). Tom replies that he is “eldest,” and then he proceeds to explain:

“Tom was here before the river and the trees…He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving…When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already here, before the seas were bent…before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” (129)

Since Tom’s own information is arguably the most accurate about him, let us use the above quotation to determine just how old he is. First, we know Tom has lived in Arda since “before the river and the trees,” a reference to the Spring of Arda. The Spring of Arda is the period from 1900 to 3450 (in Valian Years, not solar years, mind you—though we will return to this soon) of the Years of the Lamps, in which the world was populated with living things. Secondly, he has been in Middle-earth since year 1 of the First Age, when Men awoke; additionally, he saw the hobbits migrating west around T.A. 1300. Tom also saw the Elves pass west: this refers to the Sundering of the Elves and, more precisely, to the First and Second Sunderings in the Years of the Trees 1105 and 1115, respectively. The “seas were bent” in F.A. 587 following the War of Wrath. Most interestingly, though, is that Tom was in Arda before Morgoth (and, in turn, all the Valar) came there during the First War, from year 1 to about 1499 of the Years of the Lamps. Thus, we know that Tom Bombadil was one of the first—if not the very first—inhabitants of Arda following the Music of the Ainur and the creation of Eä.

Now, knowing that Tom has existed (it is, as yet, impossible to say that he was born or created, or even that he entered Arda) since year 1 of the Years of the Lamps, we can calculate his exact age. We must note, however, the sort of ripple that exists in time in Tolkien’s works: each year in the Years of the Lamps and Years of the Trees is a Valian year (about 9.582 solar years). The First Age, with the rising of the Sun, marks the use of solar years in counting. So, we can use the range from 1 Years of the Lamps to T.A. 3018 (when Tom meets the hobbits) to calculate his age. We simply multiply 3500 (the number of Valian years in the Years of the Lamps) by 9.582 (3500 x 9.582 = 33,537), repeat this process for the Years of the Trees (~1500 x 9.582 = 14,373), and add the total number of solar years from all the Ages up until T.A. 3018 (590 + 3,441 + 3018 = 7049). So, by T.A. 3018 Tom Bombadil is already some 54,959 (solar) years old!

Beyond his age, Tom is characterized by a few other unique traits. First is his reaction (or lack thereof) to the Ring. “Show me the Ring!” he says to Frodo, who, surprisingly, hands it right over without any qualms (much in contrast to the very protective, hesitant Frodo we see later on). Tom proceeds to “put it to his eye and laugh[s]” (130). Yes, the reaction of Tom Bombadil to the One Ring, the most powerful and dangerous object in the world, is laughter—not worry nor despair, and certainly not fear. Then, when Tom puts the Ring on his finger, there is “no sign of [him] disappearing” (130). And how does Tom react to this instance? You’ve got it right: he laughs and, to further show how little he cares for the Ring, he does what appears to be a little sleight of hand with it before returning it to Frodo “with a smile” (130).

Not only is Tom unaffected by the Ring himself, but he notices its effects on others. When Frodo slips on the Ring (to check that is, in fact the Ring after lending it to Tom), Tom immediately notices the invisible hobbit sneaking off:

“‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards [Frodo] with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. ‘Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring!” (131)

Clearly, Tom is unaffected, personally or otherwise, by the Ring. And he is the only character in the whole of the novel to have this ostensible immunity to the Ring. It is certainly a powerful being that holds this trait.

Yet what do we typically associate with power and wisdom? Perhaps visions of age-worn, rather tough and callous individuals spring to mind—yet this is not the case with Tom Bombadil. As I noted before, Tom has a rather affable, light-hearted personality. He is certainly not a man of affectation: no matter the circumstance nor the people involved, Tom is always in a joyous mood, singing and bouncing around (or at least disposed to do so). Tom is so happy-go-lucky because he has no concept of fear. Take the following examples: (1) he rescues the hobbits from the clutches of Old Man Willow as if he were reprimanding a child, not challenging a great evil; (2) he lives in the Old Forest, a place ripe with fearful beasts and about which tales of fright abound; (3) he saves the hobbits from a barrow-wight, coming with song and a spring in his step to one of the most dreadful and dangerous mishaps in the story. Take this quotation from “Fog on the Barrow-Downs,” for example:

“’You won’t find your clothes again,’ said Tom, bounding down from the mound, and laughing as he danced round them in the sunlight. One would have thought that nothing dangerous or dreadful had happened; and indeed the horror faded out of their hearts as they looked at him, and saw the merry glint in his eyes.” (140)

It is plain to note: where others would fear, Tom Bombadil does not. It is not even that Tom is simply not afraid, nor that he has overcome his fear; rather, he has no concept, no idea whatsoever, of fear. He is entirely composed of the good-natured, light-hearted fibers that render him capable of laughing in the very face of the One Ring.

And this lack of fear (especially with regards to the Ring) is unique. Gandalf certainly shows a sense of fear on many occasions: from his fear of entering Moria, to his fear of the Ring and the Enemy. Galadriel and Elrond both fear the Ring, for in either using it or keeping it hidden they know it will bring about their ruin. Even the Enemy is not free from the grasp of fear: when he learns of Aragorn’s return and the possibility of united opposition to him, Sauron begins to feel afraid. While the fear that all of these characters experience may differ in many ways, fear it is nonetheless. And it is exactly this sense of fear that Tom Bombadil does not possess.

There remains now just one last point regarding Tom’s character that I believe is worth noting: his repeated association with the earth. Frodo, the night the hobbits spend in Tom Bombadil’s house, has a vivid dream of

“a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.” (132)

This dream—a clear reference to Valinor—is interrupted: Frodo awakens to see “Tom whistling like a tree-full of birds” and he notes “the sun was already slanting down the hill…Outside everything was green and pale gold” (132). Here, we note Tom’s stark association with the earth or, perhaps more prominently, his dissociation from Valinor. Tom interrupts this dream (in essence, the thought that he may be associated with Valinor), and he immediately brings Frodo back to the earth: to the birds, trees, and green of the living, mortal earth. The notion that Tom is more an earthly, temporal being is quite important: it is vindicated by what we have learned of his age, and it will greatly help us in deciding what Tom is and isn’t.

Knowing what we do about Tom Bombadil now, we can move on to the second half of this task: discovering who Tom truly is. We will be looking at the main and other popular theories of this debate, and one by one, we will see which, if any of the pre-proposed categories, Tom fits. After thoroughly examining all options, then—and only then—will we be able to make a final conclusion. (And, if we are lucky, such a conclusion may not be that we will simply never know the answer.)

Is Tom…

A Man, Elf, Hobbit, Dwarf, etc?

Tom is decidedly not a member of any of the races or kindreds of Middle-earth. We can most certainly eliminate him from all such groups (especially from Men and Elves, which would be the two most likely groups) by noting his age (i.e. he was around before them), his physical characteristics (size, beard, etc.), and how the Ring does not affect him.

A Vala?

It is certainly difficult to claim that Tom is one of the great Powers of the World for many reasons. First, all fourteen of the Valar are accounted for, and Tom is not named among them. Second, as we noted before, Tom was living in Arda before the Valar (led by Morgoth) entered the world. Third, Tom refers to himself as “Eldest,” a title to which all the Valar are beholding, not just he (if indeed he were a Vala). Lastly, we know that Tom calls Morgoth “the Dark Lord” (as quoted above). It is hard to imagine any of the Valar referring to their greatest rival, the embodiment of Evil, by this name: certainly, the Valar reserved such reverence in the title “Lord” for Manwe alone. Additionally, fans over at The Encyclopedia of Arda have noted that characterize we would expect to note that Tom is a Vala (such as Gandalf, one of the Maiar), do not.

A Maiar?

This theory is, in some ways, a rather attractive one. We know, first of all, that not all of the Maiar were named by Tolkien—this, of course, allows for hypothesizing that Tom is indeed one of them. However, some good counterpoints contest this argument. First, Tom is unaffected by the Ring. We know for certain that other Maiar, from Gandalf to Sauron, were affected by the power and draw of the One Ring. Additionally, remember the total lack of a sense of fear we discussed before? Well, a sense of fear regarding the Ring (or its fate, for the Enemy) pervades the Maiar involved with this struggle. Yet such is not the case with Tom. Also, it is interesting to note how these Maiar are all allied, with one side or another, while Tom remains independent from the conflict.

The One?

Some have even pushed the idea that Tom is The One, Eru Ilúvatar. Yet for all the auspicious remarks made about Tom (how he is “eldest,” etc.), this theory does not hold water either. At the Council of Elrond, we learn many of the reasons why this theory is false. Gandalf states that “he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others,” a trait that we would assume the mightiest being of them all, the creator himself, would possess (259). Glorfindel also comments on the idea of giving Tom the Ring to keep safe: “in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First” (259). The notion that Sauron and his folk could defeat Eru (indeed, the notion that Eru is even capable of being killed, defeated, or otherwise harmed) seems rather ridiculous. Furthermore, evidence from Tolkien himself puts a final end to this theory: in Letter 181, Tolkien explicitly states that there is no embodiment of Eru, who exists apart from the World entirely.

A Spirit?

In many of his earlier writings on what would become The Silmarillion (as collected by Christopher Tolkien in The Book of Lost Tales), Tolkien had a concept of Middle-earth as much more similar to his idea of Faerie. Originally, many spirits and sprites (of all kinds and names) entered the World just as the Ainur did—and this notion was not entirely lost in the final published form of The Silmarillion. It is an attractive theory (for many reasons) to say that Tom is a sort of spirit.

The best route to take within this theory is to propose that Tom is a “nature spirit” (perhaps even a “Father Nature,” if you like). First, it makes sense that Tom would come from the Music of the Ainur—this is in accord with his inhabiting Arda from the very beginning. Second, the notion that spirits exist in nature is evident in Middle-earth: from Ents to Old Man Willow to the great prevalence of personification, nature is much more “alive” in Middle-earth than we take it to be. As noted before, Tom is starkly associated with nature and the earth. The way he lives so harmoniously with bird and beast (and how he seems to command nature in his dealings with Old Man Willow) certainly supports this theory. Additionally, we know that Tom is not concerned with the Ring (Gandalf notes that “he would not have come” to the Council of Elrond, and we noted before how remains “unallied” despite the times). He, actually, shows a total disconnect from the affairs of all other human-like beings; he is, rather, concerned only with the natural world. Tom’s neutrality greatly parallels the neutrality that we prescribe to nature. Since we, as fans, do accept the existence and the role of Ents such as Treebeard, I believe making the jump from a natural “spirit of nature” to a man embodying the “spirit of nature” is not so difficult nor controversial. Yet still, we must ask ourselves why, then, does the Ring not affect Tom, when it can certainly affect other aspects of the natural order?

An Incarnation of the Music of Ainur?

This theory is rather unique, and more recently developed than the others. Basically, we know that of all the above theories, only the notion that Tom is a “nature spirit” is relatively sound; branching from that theory, a fan known only as “Ranger from the North” developed a theory in which he posits Tom is “the incarnated spirit of the Music of the Ainur.” The “Ranger” notes two flaws with the basic “nature spirit” argument: first, Tom is not most closely associated with nature (he, personally, shows this discord by fighting against Old Man Willow and the darkness of the Forest); second, Tom is, however, associated with song and music throughout (the way in which he fights nature, for example, is with song). So, it is agreed upon by many (and I am of the same opinion) that Tom is, in fact, a spirit (an incarnate/embodiment) of sorts (i.e. that he has some relation to the Music). The question now becomes whether or not you believe he is more closely related to nature or to the Music itself.

“Ranger from the North” makes a stellar case for the latter. First, he works with the evidence from the “nature spirit” theory, showing how entirely probable the existence of other, extraneous spirits/beings is in Tolkien’s cosmology. Second, he shows how Arda itself is not the incarnation of the Music, distinguishing Middle-earth from the means by which it was created. Then, the “Ranger” makes a very clever comparison between Ungoliant and Bombadil: he notes how, since Ungoliant exists in many ways as an incarnation of the discord of the Music, she parallels Tom; these two are, he says, antitheses, and should be considered in the same way. Just as Ungoliant embodies the evil and darkness with which she was made, so too does Tom embody the light and happiness of the source of his creation. The “Ranger,” additionally, notes a detail of paramount importance: Tom’s name is not all it appears. Certainly, we hear “Tom” and think of our odd uncle or younger brother—yet such is not the case, says the “Ranger.” He notes the story of the great gong Tombo in the Unfinished Tales—coincidence that “t-o-m-b-o” are the first six letters of Tom Bombadil? Is it also coincidental that we find yet another association between Tom and music here? I think not.

The “Ranger from the North” has written extensively on his theory, and I seek not to describe all of his arguments. If you would like a much more detailed and thorough examination of the Music of the Ainur theory, I highly recommend reading what the “Ranger” himself has written here: http://www.whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/

So, we have reached the end of our journey through the “Bombadil Problem.” We have examined the arguments, waded through confusion, sorted out messes, and procured evidence. It is, in my opinion, certain that we must continue to think of Tom as unique, that we must give credit to the enigma that he (intentionally) is. The true “Master” here is perhaps the Professor himself: the truly contradictory nature of this enigma—his simplicity in character and simultaneous complexity in literature—was well crafted. The mystery of Tom reaches far back into the deeps of Tolkien’s mythology, and roots may be found stretching back to the Professor’s first tales of Faerie. While the “riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma” that we call Tom Bombadil will continue to challenge us, so too will it excite us. For through continued debate and discussion, we return time and again to the tales and stories we hold so dear, pouring of pages for hours, scouring word-by-word for some secret hint, trying to piece the puzzle back together. We know that the mystery about Tom was intentionally crafted, and that the Professor may have taken the truth about this character and his own motives in designing him to the grave, yet our drive to uncover more about this most enigmatic of beings is not diminished—why? Perhaps it is precisely because of Tom’s nature that we are fascinated by him: in a Middle-earth so divided by light and dark, good and evil (i.e. clear answers to the “who” and “what”), Tom exists as an uncommitted, uncategorized blank slate. He is the one being so open to interpretation, so predisposed to our imagination, so designed for our wondering. It is not surprising that we love Tom so much, that we pursue this debate so tirelessly, because we each craft our very own Tom Bombadil in our minds—and it is the Professor who intentionally left Tom open to such interpretation. Perhaps we can accept that Tom is simply a mystery—though, no doubt, we will continue discussing and searching for the “truth.”

All references to the text from:

The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien, single-volume edition, Houghton Mifflin (HarperCollins), 2001 (1994 edition of the text)

More information about Tom Bombadil, as well as links to other arguments, can be found below:

1)      http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature

2)      http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html

This weekend’s Roundup brings you The Reading Room as it hosted the very first TORn Amateur Symposium.  Many Message Board Members have found it difficult to attend national symposiums and conferences that include studies on J.R.R. Tolkien and his works.  As a result, TORn has conducted its own Symposium.  Members have contributed personal essays on philosophic opinions, scientific theories, or analytic approaches to understanding or highlighting some facet of Tolkien’s writings and world.  Please enjoy the following topics offered in this first TORn Amateur Symposium.

Day One – The Physics of Middle-earth

Day Two – Fauna of Middle-earth

Day Three – Geography and Literature, Art & Language

Day Four – The Hobbit Topics

Day Five – The Lord of the Rings Topics

Day Six – The Silmarillion Topics

Want Hobbit Movie News?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have nearly 9,900 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

The Illuminated Silmarillion

He produced the book as part of his schooling and says, “…but the main problem was my strict limitation in time and money. Looking back I cannot understand how it worked! For my exam it would have been enough to do calligraphy for only one or two chapters. But I didn´t want to have a book with maybe twenty printed and 380 empty pages! That would not have been worthy for a Tolkien-work and I had better done a short story or so. But I thought: „This is your exam and maybe the last time that you can do what you want as an illustrator!“ So I did it, and couldn´t have done it with that fire, wouldn´t it have been a Tolkien-work. And although this was extremely hard, the fire did not cease.”

The Tolkien Library has an interview with excellent images. You can read the whole story right here.

This week on Main, noWizardme is having a casting call for Beren and Luthien, with you as the director, who would you cast?

On LOTR Movie Board, Ziggy Stardust is talking about The Mouth of Sauron, how he was portrayed in ROTK and how it differed from their vision of him.  What did you think of The Mouth of Sauron, did you love his depiction or did you see him completely differently?

Meanwhile on Hobbit Movie Board, The Mitch King is telling us about their number one problem with AUJ and wants to know what yours is.

And on Off Topic this week, Salmacis81 is asking us about the worst tasting food we’ve ever tried.

We’ll share more topics next week. We hope you’ll come and join in the conversations!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s message boards have over 9,800 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Right now, the place to be is the Reading Room.  Normally viewed as a thoughtful, scholarly part of the TORn Message Boards, it has pulled ahead in posts and participation… an occurrence that has triggered a friendly and spontaneous party.  Join the thready fun here.

One of the reasons for the spike in activity and interest is the ongoing Silmarillion Discussion as “Roomies” study the lives and love of Beren and Luthien.  Stroll through the Reading Room and discover The Silmarillion.

Another reason for the action is the launch of discussion on The History of the Hobbit.  Join this fascinating look at how it all started here.

Want Hobbit movie news?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit headlines of the week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in the conversation!  Don’t forget,   have over 9,800 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

The House That Bilbo Built: Tolkien’s Literary Legacy
by Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway

Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien have a distinctly creative way of expressing what they like; and perhaps that is the very quality that makes them the greatest fandom to propagate a literary phenomenon. It has been said there’s Life within the words of a great book. The ultimate expression of that can be seen in the inspired individual who builds his Life from the words. Those are the types of fans who carry their love so strongly forward, into bookstores and cineplexes alike, that everyone gets swept up. Their friends and children inevitably receive the books from them when the time comes; each parent, with a knowing smile, handing the key to Middle-earth to their young ones. I sometimes wonder what Professor Tolkien would think of ‘The House That Bilbo Built:’ a wave of cultural influence and entertainment begotten by the high romantic world he invented, along with so many original languages and alphabets, such a long time ago.

Talk about longevity! THE HOBBIT just celebrated its 75th anniversary. First published in 1937, well before the first volume of THE LORD OF THE RINGS came out (1954), the whimsical adventure of the diminutive Bilbo Baggins stands as a giant among 20th century fiction. Certainly few other books sustain the same revolving fandom over decades. I don’t believe in the least that TWILIGHT or THE HUNGER GAMES will have this measure of adoration in 75 years (but POTTER damn well might). Don’t underestimate how beloved and emulated Tolkien’s books are to a surprisingly different quilt of nations, regions, and times. The world’s appetite for Tolkien’s uniquely rich fantasy storytelling caused the actual “Fantasy” section to appear in bookstores; a niche market broadened tremendously, a statement was made to the publishing industry, and there was certainly no going back. Elves, Hobbits, Wizards, Goblins and Dragons were here to stay.

So much of my own creative life has sprung from my love of Tolkien and willingly have I swam the subculture that embraces his work. Ringer fans are counted among the best of friends and talents I’ve had the pleasure to meet. They never cease to surprise me in their endless originality. Interviewing them for our documentary, RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS got me really up-close; and I take joy in exploring this never-ceasing question: why are these readers so deeply connected to Bilbo’s and Frodo’s story? Why does this phenomenon keep expressing itself in the desire for cosplay, spontaneous music, academic symposiums, boisterous conventions, movie adaptations, and profuse indulgence in second breakfasts? I keep asking through all my interviews and meetings and moots; yet the answer is mercurial.

And what humble, delicate beginnings for a behemoth like THE LORD OF THE RINGS! Let’s take a look at Tolkien’s remarkable publishing history, and thence pop cultural history, because it almost didn’t happen, for many reasons.

Tolkien started off developing the languages, and the foundational cosmological basis for his “secondary world,” while he was still a youngling in college, earning a degree in English Language & Literature. Then World War I arrived with death and disruption. Tolkien survived unwounded but his friends did not – he was medically discharged himself with trench fever. While on sick-leave in 1917 his wife Edith assisted him with hand-copying one of his earliest tales: “The Fall of Gondolin,” a fictional wandering that would ultimately become part of THE SILMARILLION (in fact, much of the content of THE SIL was created in Tolkien’s earlier years).

He was to become an Oxford philologist, dedicating his scholarly life to the study of languages. What better way to explore them than inventing your own! There’s a term for it: glossopoeia. As explained by TORn staff contributor Ostadan: “The word glossopoeia is a coinage derived from Greek, meaning ‘the making of tongues.’ As Tolkien explains, the creation of languages offers both intellectual and aesthetic satisfaction, but at the time he wrote, there were few such creations known to the public.”

By 1917 he was on his way to inventing Quenya and Sindarin – Elvish languages yet to be uttered by Orlando Bloom. Tolkien toyed with bits of poetry and his own slant on languages that he fancied (Finnish, Old Norse, Welsh), an effort which, oh-so-gradually over forty years, became an entire universe. He was also intent on creating a new mythology for England, which he felt lacked its own panorama of deities and “epicness” as Norway did. So THE HOBBIT was begun somewhere around 1930-31 (Tolkien recalls scribbling on a blank sheet of paper while marking examination papers, ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’).

In 1936 Sir Stanley Unwin of Allen & Unwin Publishers got his 10-year-old son Rayner on board as the first ‘early reviewer,’ believing a child was the best judge of children’s fiction. Rayner loved it and wrote a glowing report, describing it as ‘very exciting.’ So THE HOBBIT launched in September 1937, to considerable acclaim and boffo sales.

Sir Stanley quickly asked for a sequel; and the Professor sent them THE SILMARILLION, a woefully different ball of wax, with oddments of archaic manuscripts, a dense mine of data about Middle-earth’s pre-history, genealogies and somewhat biblical-style tracts that didn’t suit anyone’s taste at the publisher’s office. They wanted something with furry feet and gentle appeal.

Saying politely, “No thanks, but give us more material akin to THE HOBBIT,” they received in 1937 the first chapter Tolkien could manage – “A long expected party,” which reveled in much more hobbity sensibilities. The publishers loved what they read. But in so small an act can the hand of destiny be changed. The writing of the damn thing spiraled entirely out of control.

Tolkien felt endless pressure but wrote to Sir Stanley: “The work has escaped from my control and I have produced a monster.” This new epic was to take nearly 13 years, some say 17, during which time he held a chair at Oxford; and then, quick as you can say schnell, World War II arrived. THE LORD OF THE RINGS was finally finished in 1949. Tolkien was nigh 60 years old.

Over those years Tolkien had become quite miffed at Allen & Unwin for saying “no” to THE SILMARILLION. In 1949 he got entangled in a lengthy flirtation with Collins Publishers, hoping a new relationship would yield a home for his greatest effort.

He eventually went back to Allen & Unwin under terms of a new agreement: they would indeed publish THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though there was a critical paper shortage during wartime. Sir Stanley did not take on THE SILMARILLION, either, another stroke against it (after Tolkien died it finally saw print in 1977, thanks to his son Christopher’s tireless efforts).

The decision to split LOTR into three volumes left the Professor rather unhappy. But he settled on the main title as THE LORD OF THE  RINGS, with sub-titles for three distinct volumes (containing two “Books” each)– THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING. He would much rather it had been THE WAR OF THE RING, which he sensed would reveal much less of the actual plot, but that didn’t stick.

It was the High Summer of 1954 – Bill Haley and His Comets would rock around the clock, just as Frodo Baggins made the scene in Volume 1 of LOTR; then Volumes 2 and 3 would arrive later in 1955.

The first wave of fandom simply ate up copies regardless of its mixed reviews. Tolkien’s good friend (and fellow Inkling) C.S. Lewis came to the books’ spirited defense, declaring famously: “Here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron. Here is a book which will break your heart.” W.H. Auden also lauded: “No fiction I have read in the last five years has given me more joy.”

Steady sales and continued profits were nice, but when the American counterculture embraced THE LORD OF THE RINGS some ten years later it really skyrocketed. Over a few months time in 1966, THE LORD OF THE RINGS became a campus craze and books were seen everywhere through dormitory halls – even the University of Southern California Irvine Campus had a housing section renamed a lá Middle-earth. Causing admiration and titters alike (depending on your level of fandom) 1700 students to this day lounge in halls with such names as “Rivendell” or “Quenya.” The first and strongest wave of Western pop culture, the hippie movement, was staking its claim on how Tolkien was perceived and enjoyed by a broadly literate youth generation. Then there was the scandal of the “bootleg paperback version” of LOTR that were completely unauthorized (the guilty party being ACE Paperbacks) but that was resolved with the support of students/fans protesting booksellers who carried ACE and thus a new Ballentine edition was soon printed with Tolkien’s note on the back cover — much of this fuss we cover in greater detail in our documentary.

Then the Rock & Rollers picked up the books. An entire section of the RINGERS film covers that dynamic period where Tolkien unwittingly affected musicians of the time. Marc Bolan (of T-Rex) and David Bowie hit the underground “Middle-earth Club” on the seedy side of London. Connect the musical dots to Led Zeppelin; whose albums are rife with LOTR references and characters due to Robert Plant’s fertile affection for Tolkien’s books. I had a revealing chat with director Cameron Crowe who confessed: “Oh you’ve got to talk with my wife Nancy (Wilson of Heart), because she just loves it!” Then there was Geddy Lee (Rush), and nowadays we have Justin Timberlake – hardcore Ringers one and all.

Tolkien was uncomfortable with the explosion of attention. He was a tweedy Oxford don, after all, and wanted nothing to do with the drug-addled young people tramping across his rose garden and peeping into his windows while he worked. He once called them “my deplorable cultus.” After his death in 1973, and the posthumous publication of THE SILMARILLION, the wave of pop surrounding Bilbo and Frodo became a unique beast of another color.

The holiday animation company Rankin/Bass (yes, the folks who did stop-motion Rudolph and Frosty) brought us THE HOBBIT in less than 90 minutes of Japanese-produced 2D glory in 1977. Then Ralph Bakshi rotoscoped his drop-acid take on the first half of LOTR, but he never got to make his finale. Yet the fantasy explosion of the Eighties was off to a roaring start. Tolkien fueled all this, without dispute, and up sprang authors like David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Stephen R. Donaldson, and Marion Zimmer Bradley. Someone with a polyhedral die and several pages of Middle-earthy maps invented a pen & paper game that you might vaguely recall. And you can bet your Muggle face that J.K. Rowling was devouring the Professor’s books at the time, storing it all away for future inspiration.

Enter onto the 1990′s digital stage TheOneRing.net – an online fan community affectionately known as TORn – the largest, longest-running, all-volunteer web portal unique to a single fandom. As contributors to TORn, we spend our energy reporting news, presenting special panels coast-to-coast at massive Comic-Cons and Dragon*Cons, moderating forums, chat rooms, and Facebook timelines with an endless flow of fans who collide as much as confer. We produced three gobsmacking Oscar Parties just for Ringers, one event yearly for each of Peter Jackson’s sprawling films, which were attended by the trophy-bearing cast and crew. On the year of THE RETURN OF THE KING’s 11-Oscar sweep, the Kiwi filmmakers were especially eager to greet the grassroots fan audience that so avidly showed them three years of love (and repeat ticket sales). We also produced a hellzapoppin’ Oscar event for the HOBBIT: AUJ in 2013, providing a unique atmosphere for aficionados to celebrate a shared affection for Tolkien with creators from behind the camera.

Now the newest excursion into Tolkien’s legendarium is upon us with the late 2012 release of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY. Not to mention the attendant merchandising and collectibles now flooding the market. Jackson and his team of film artisans surmounted terrific odds to return all the familiar players to New Zealand. The anticipation has left most fans breathless; while many purists may bemoan the stretching of an episodic 280-page children’s story into 3 extra long films. The level of involvement among fans hasn’t lessened, instead reaching a new zenith by way of shared electronic media.

On our weekly live webcast aptly named “TORn Tuesday,” actors and artists ranging from Sean Astin to Peter S. Beagle join me for a merry discussion of how THE LORD OF THE RINGS has impacted their lives. They definitively illuminate how Tolkien remains so relevant. These artists have lived and breathed the magic of Middle-earth in myriad ways. Nearly 60 years later Tolkien’s masterworks have reached countless millions; and there’s a vibrant community online that supports many great events and causes, all sharing the same literary joy. I’ve never witnessed another phenomenon like it. A shared passion for the Professor’s 1200 page opus is the very liferoot of it all.

As I said, Ringer fans really do know what they like.

Much too hasty,

‘Quickbeam’

Clifford Broadway

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Clifford Broadway, longtime contributor and webhost for TheOneRing.net, is co-author of the bestseller “The People’s Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien” (2003) and co-writer/producer of the award-winning RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS (Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, 2005).

Follow us on Twitter:

TheOneRing.net @theoneringnet

Cliff Scott Broadway @Quickbeam2000

This thing went nuts with 200,000 views in 7 hours! With a busy Facebook timeline like ours at TheOneRing.net, it is always cool to see what stands out as a favorite popular post.  Today’s image of Aragorn having a fun soliloquy about the day we STOP loving The Lord of the Rings became our most widely-seen and mega shared post of the year!

So why are fans so quickly drawn to a declarative statement like: “Other Fandoms may ebb and flow, but Tolkien fans are committed to these stories for life?” Quickbeam has pondered that very thing: and here is his article from this week, above

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The action this week is happening in the Reading Room.  There are two very thoughtful investigations of female characters in J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Check here as Poster wildespace leads the discussion on their presence in The Lord of the Rings, with more in Maciliel’s contribution to The Silmarillion Discussion (Chapter 16).  Join in the fun here.

Also in the Reading Room, the TORn Amateur Symposium is underway!  Inspired by the Tolkien-themed conferences and symposiums that many of our Discussion Board Members cannot attend due to cost or location, we’re going to create our own that everyone can attend right here!  Check out the program and join us with your own submissions.

Want Hobbit Movie News?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,740 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Because I’ve read a lot and thought a lot about Tolkien and his invented world, and I’ve engaged in a lot of debates about the quality and accuracy of the movies, I feel entitled to say things like, “Well, there are parts he would have loved and parts he would have hated.”  But that’s not Tolkien talking. That’s me. The author died long before The Fellowship of the Ring was released in 2001, so I’ll never know how he might have reacted to the Jackson films, and neither will anyone else.

The nearest we can come to Tolkien’s assessment might be that of his son, Christopher Tolkien, who did not give the Jackson movies a positive review.  “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25,” Christopher told the French newspaper Le Monde in July 2012.

There’s a good chance Christopher’s father would have agreed with his son’s (rather unfair, in my opinion) assessment. It’s well known that, of Tolkien’s four children, Christopher was the one most drawn to his father’s creation.  “As strange as it may seem, I grew up in the world he created,” Christopher (who is 88) told Le Monde. “For me, the cities of The Silmarillion are more real than Babylon.”

As a boy, Christopher, “huddled for warmth by the study stove, would listen motionless while his father told him” tales from his imaginary world, Humphrey Carpenter wrote in his biography of Tolkien. In his teens and twenties, Christopher was “deeply involved with the writing of ‘The Lord of the Rings’. He had read the first chapters in manuscript, and had drawn maps and made fair copies of the text for his father,” Carpenter wrote in The Inklings.  When Christopher eventually joined the Inklings (the informal literary group that included Tolkien and C.S. Lewis), “it grew to be the custom that he, rather than his father, should read aloud any new chapters of The Lord of the Rings to the company, for it was generally agreed that he made a better job of it than did Tolkien himself,” Carpenter wrote.

Christopher Tolkien

So Christopher, clearly, knows The Lord of the Rings and his father’s thoughts about it more intimately than anyone else alive. With that in mind, it may be safe to assume Tolkien’s view would have aligned with Christopher’s, and he would therefore have hated the Jackson movies.

Then again, father and son don’t seem to have shared the same opinion about whether or not the book should be turned into a movie – any movie – at all. Christopher seems to think that The Lord of the Rings is so layered and complex that no film version could do it justice.  “My own position is that The Lord Of The Rings is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form,” Christopher stated in December 2001, just before the first Jackson movie hit theaters.

Tolkien himself, however, was quite willing to see his book turned into film – under the right circumstances. In fact, he sold the movie rights for The Lord of the Rings (along with The Hobbit) to United Artists in 1969, according to Le Monde.

Tolkien was first approached about a Lord of the Rings movie in 1957, when three American businessmen proposed an animated version, according to Carpenter’s biography. “I should welcome the idea of an animated motion picture, with all the risk of vulgarization; and that quite apart from the glint of money, though on the brink of retirement that is not an unpleasant possibility,” Tolkien wrote one of his publishers that year. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 198)

In regards to selling the film rights, Tolkien and his publishers came up with a “cash or kudos” policy, according to Carpenter. Tolkien put it this way: “Either very profitable terms indeed; or absolute author’s veto on objectionable features or alterations.” (Letter No. 202)

The 1957 proposal included some “really astonishingly good pictures (Rackham rather than Disney) and some remarkable colour photographs. They have apparently toured America shooting mountain and desert scenes that seem to fit the story,” Tolkien wrote (202).  But the synopsis of the proposed film they gave him was “on a lower level. In fact bad,” Tolkien wrote (202). Carpenter summarized the problems: “A number of names were consistently mis-spelt (Boromir was rendered ‘Borimor’), virtually all walking was dispensed with in the story and the Company of the Ring were transported everywhere on the backs of eagles, and the elvish waybread lembas was described as a ‘food concentrate’.”

Tolkien’s overall problem with the script was that it was “a compression with resultant over-crowding and confusion, blurring of climaxes, and general degradation: a pull-back towards more conventional ‘fairy-stories’. People gallop about on Eagles at the least provocation; Lorien becomes a fairy-castle with ‘delicate minarets’, and all that sort of thing.” (Letter No. 201)  But as bad as it was, he was still willing to “play ball, if they are open to advice.” (201)

In these letters, published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, we get a rare glimpse of Tolkien the (surprisingly shrewd) businessman. The book also gives extracts from Tolkien’s comments on the 1957 film synopsis (Letter No. 210). The synopsis itself isn’t included, but Tolkien’s “review” sheds some light on its contents – and is probably the closest we’ll come to his vision of how The Lord of the Rings should be filmed.

The author’s comments also give an indirect glimpse of what he might have thought of Peter Jackson’s films.  Tolkien’s “review” of the 1957 synopsis dwelled on one scene, from The Fellowship of the Ring, in particular: the Weathertop confrontation of Aragorn and the four hobbits with the Black Riders.  “I have spent some time on this passage,” he wrote, “as an example of what I find too frequent to give me ‘pleasure or satisfaction’: deliberate alteration of the story, in fact and significance, without any practical or artistic object.”

He gave examples of what displeased him:

“Strider does not ‘Whip out a sword’ in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken … Why then make him do so here, in a contest that was explicitly not fought with weapons?”

“The Black Riders do not scream, but keep a more terrifying silence. Aragorn does not blanch. The riders draw slowly in on foot in darkness, and do not ‘spur’. There is no fight. Sam does not ‘sink his blade into the Ringwraith’s thigh’, nor does his thrust save Frodo’s life.”

“A scene of gloom lit by a small red fire, with the Wraiths slowly approaching as darker shadows – until the moment when Frodo puts on the Ring, and the King steps forward revealed – would seem to me far more impressive than yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless slashings …”

I could spend a lot of time laying out the similarities and differences of the 1957 and 2001 versions of the Weathertop scene, but you’re probably replaying the Jackson version in your head right now, and you don’t need my help.  I will say this: Aragorn is too much the beefcake in Jackson’s version of this scene, swinging his big sword and throwing his flaming torches at the Black Riders, who run away like screaming babies. But I’ll side with Jackson on one point: It was kind of strange for Aragorn to be carrying a broken sword, which he did at that point in the book. Besides being a priceless heirloom, the Sword that was Broken was rather useless in a fight (which Aragorn acknowledged). Why not leave it in Rivendell until it’s ready to be re-forged, and carry a workable sword in the meantime?

Tolkien also addressed the overuse of the Eagles in the 1957 version: “I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale,” he wrote. “‘Nine Walkers’ and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed.”  At least Jackson didn’t commit that unpardonable sin.

The 1957 synopsis leaves out a scene that Tolkien considered extremely important, a scene that Jackson left in: “The disappearance of the temptation of Galadriel is significant. Practically everything having moral import has vanished from the synopsis.”

Tolkien was, however, OK with cutting out some parts of the book, if necessary. He even suggested cutting out the battle of the Hornburg (Helm’s Deep), “which is incidental to the main story; and there would be this additional gain that we are going to have a big battle (of which as much should be made as possible), but battles tend to be too similar; the big one would gain by having no competitor.”  (By the “big one”, the author must have been referring to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in The Return of the King.)

Jackson didn’t cut the battle of Helm’s Deep. Oh no. It’s the big set piece of his second movie. Whether or not that diminished the big battle in his third movie is debatable.

Then there’s the handling of Saruman’s end. The 1957 synopsis cut out the “end of the book, including Saruman’s proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die,” Tolkien wrote. “Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs is the way of the sort of person he had become.”  If Saruman needed to be tidied up, Tolkien wrote, “Gandalf should say something to this effect: as Saruman collapses under the excommunication: ‘Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!’”

Seems like Jackson’s shorter version of “The Return of the King”, the version that ran in theaters (as opposed to the extended edition), handled “Sharkey’s End” in a manner Tolkien would have preferred.

Despite his distaste for the 1957 synopsis, Tolkien was still willing to “play ball”, as he wrote. So why was that version never made into a movie?

In his biography, Carpenter gave an explanation: “There did not seem to be much prospect of kudos in this, and as there was not much cash either, negotiations were not continued.”

Like I said at the beginning, we’ll never know what Tolkien would have thought of the Jackson movies; but based on what we’ve just read, it’s safe to say he would have preferred them over the 1957 proposal. And not to sound too vulgar, but there probably would have been more cash involved as well…

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Maedhros is a guest writer and his views do not necessarily reflect those of TheOneRing.net. Maedhros lives in Grand Rapids, MI. He’s been hooked on Tolkien since he was 11, when he opened the first page of “The Two Towers” and read about Aragorn tracking a hobbit; and Boromir’s death scene, of course. 

As we all know, J R R Tolkien was, from an early age, fascinated by myth and heroic legend, reading all he could of the romances and epics of many nations.  In a letter to Milton Waldman, which appears in the Preface to the second edition of The Silmarillion, he wrote that he was ‘grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own … Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with the English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing…’

The Professor, then, had little time for the legends of King Arthur; but he did make one foray into those tales, and we are about to be able to read for ourselves the results of those labours!  Tomorrow, publishers Houghton Mifflin Harcourt release Tolkien’s narrative poem The Fall of Arthur, edited as ever by his son Christopher.  HMH’s press release tells us:

‘The Fall of Arthur, the only venture by J.R.R. Tolkien into the legends of Arthur, king of Britain, may well be regarded as his finest and most skillful achievement in the use of Old English alliterative meter, in which he brought to his transforming perceptions of the old narratives a pervasive sense of the grave and fateful nature of all that is told: of Arthur’s expedition overseas into distant heathen lands, of Guinevere’s flight from Camelot, of the great sea battle on Arthur’s return to Britain, in the portrait of the traitor Mordred, in the tormented doubts of Lancelot in his French castle.’

Alas, Tolkien never finished his poem; but amongst his manuscripts were sketches and drafts, which included ‘significant tantalizing notes. In these notes can be discerned clear if mysterious associations of the Arthurian conclusion with The Silmarillion, and the bitter ending of the love of Lancelot and Guinevere, which was never written.’

It’s a day of celebration for Tolkien fans whenever we have a chance to read more of the Professor’s work, and gain further insight into the explorations which lead to his great myth of Middle-earth.  You can read Houghton Mifflin Harcourt’s full information about the book here; and you can order your copy from Amazon by clicking here. The Fall of Arthur will also be available as an e-book.  Happy reading!

[Order The Fall of Arthur from Amazon]

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

Every week on the Main Discussion Board, poster Roheryn shares a game she creates from Tolkien’s works.  We’ve been having fun playing SAST (Short Attention Span Theatre) from The Hobbit.  Come join the fun here.

In the Reading Room, posters are still discussing The Silmarillion.  They’re well into Chapter 12, “Of Men”. If you’ve ever wanted to delve into The Sil, but you weren’t sure you wanted to tackle the enormity of this deep Middle-earth history, the Reading Room is the perfect way to start.  Join them with Chapter 12 Part 1 and Part 2.

In Lord of the Rings Movie Discussion Board, we never get tired of sharing our favourite quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Stop by and let us know what yours are.

   There was a thunderous round of applause on the Feedback Discussion Board when Admin and long-time poster dernwyn pointed out that there are now banner circle pictures from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey mixed with the LotR pics!  For those who haven’t visited the Boards, you really must go take a peek.  When you read posts or visit the main pages of each Discussion Board, take a look in the upper left-hand corner of your screen.  Up until now, there have been pics from The Lord of the Rings.  Check out The Hobbit pics here.  For those of us who live on the Discussion Boards, this is Awesome!!

   Want Hobbit Movie News? Each week, TORN poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect the Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

   We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

This week on Main, noWizardMe is asking if we’ve ever met or known someone with a Tolkien inspired name, see what they had to say here.

In the Reading Room, erynion was asking for help filling in the blanks about the First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.  Check out the replies here.

On The Hobbit board the gang are once again discussing what they believe will be wrong with the next two movies, do you agree or disagree with them?  Tell us here.

Over at Off Topic, we’re once again having fun with our message board version of “Getting to know you”.  See what everyone was happy to share with us here.

We’ll share more topics next week and we hope you will come and join in the conversations!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s message boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Session Start: Sun Apr 28 07:14:46 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s chat topic: Earendil and Elwing | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin?
[Jenniearcheo] Chasin’ after sparklies rarely ends well in ME, it seems
[PippinForTheWin] hi demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready.
[Puma] Earendil….the start of all middle earth writtings
[Puma] welcome lightin thesky
[lightinthesky] thank you Puma
[Phil] welcome lightinthesky and Esther
[Demosthenes] jennie: No it doesn’t. I was thinking about that yesterday. Even when there’s notionally a happy ending, you’re left to wonder…
[Jenniearcheo] Hands burned, bitten off, etc . . .
[Esther] Thanks Phil
[Jenniearcheo] Fingers, too
[Demosthenes] Do Earendil and Elwing counter this at all?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they end up with one, but not because they were chasing after it with murderous purpose
[Puma] so….jrr was beginning to invent what later became quenya….and felt a language needed a legend….earendil was the start of the whole saga
[Esther] I didn’t know that Puma
[Puma] the very 1st lines jrr wrote of middle earth were about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] wow Puma didn’t know that
[Puma] so of great import.the start of it all
[ChristineGolden] And yet, he never finished it.
[sam] ello
[Demosthenes] jennie: Purity of purpose seems to be why they achieve what they do.
[Darkover] greetings, all!
[PippinForTheWin] hey sam
[Esther] the first words about earendil, are they in the hobbit, or where can they be found
[Puma] earendil still remains mostly legend…as does gil-galad
[PippinForTheWin] hey darkover!
[sam] sil
[Darkover] Hiya, PippinFTW!
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Well. At least he gets to sail around the skies and all.
[Jenniearcheo] What’s left to go back to at this point, anyway?
[Darkover] Howdy, Chris, Jennie, Demosthenes, Puma, and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] I hope she likes her tower.
[Puma] it was just 2 lines jrr wrote about earendil that started it all
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they get cable
[Esther] I wish they could be found
[ChristineGolden] It seems that the characters with great ‘destinies’ aren’t fated to be happy-ever-after.
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, they could have returned to their kids, not that either mother or father seemed much concerned about their twins.
[Puma] they are easy to find Esther.i think it is even in wiki about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] nobody really seems to live happily ever after, do they Christine?
[Esther] thanks Puma I’ll have a look sometime
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, sorta, “Oh, man. They got captured. Ah well. Let’s go for a sail!”
[Darkover] Maybe their is no happily ever after, except in Valinor
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe says that Earendil was born to journey to Valinor, Darkover.
[Puma] earendil was also one of most stable names….never changing…but from earendel to earendil
[Esther] very interesting
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, I’m just saying I wouldn’t give him any father of the year awards
[Puma] jrr changes most names
[Demosthenes] Darkover: even those who live in Valinor are locked to the fate of the world. So I guess elves don’t really have a happy ending.
[lightinthesky] christinegolden Earendil was, as I have read, a gift to middle-earth by the valar
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the winds and tides and whatnot kept blowing him away, until he was supposed to make it.
[Demosthenes] More of a mysterious one.
[sam] he has the blood of three races
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t give many of them “parent of the year” award, Darkover.
[Esther] I’ve read the hobbit but I am taking a very long time to get through FOTR lol
[Darkover] As I said on a previous chat, Demosthenes, Elves seem to get “contented ever after,” rather than “happily.”
[Darkover] True, Chris
[Puma] no earendil only had the blodd of 2 races
[ChristineGolden] They kept blowing him away until Elwing brought the Silmaril.
[Puma] elwing has the blood of 3
[PippinForTheWin] there are a lot of people that don’t deserve the parent of the year award… like Denethor?
[Jenniearcheo] How old were the twins at this point?
[Demosthenes] Does Earendil get a contented ever after?
[sam] no 3
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he gets the girl
[Esther] PippinForTheWin I agree about Denethor
[Puma] i think he does in a way Demz
[Jenniearcheo] And he gets to sail.
[Darkover] Denethor could have been a better dad, PippinFTW, but at least he never abandoned his kids
[Darkover] and there are differences between book and movie Denethor
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i always thought that was interesting. Another example of you need a mate to succeed in Middle-earth.
[PippinForTheWin] he would abandon Faramir if he could, Darkover… if he had another son maybe
[ChristineGolden] Usually, Demosthenes, even if it isn’t a love interest.
[sam] his grandparents were miar elf
[Esther] again I agree with PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] I’m not sure Earendil even gets “contented,” Demosthenes. I mean, he said he was weary of the world, and yet every night, he has to fly some star through the sky or whatever
[Darkover] Not much chance of getting a rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Has to or gets to?
[sam] his father human
[Demosthenes] ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father
[Puma] but earendil gets to rest every day also…..with his wife
[Darkover] That could make a difference, I admit, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Does he?
[Esther] really these chats should be about random topics lol
[ChristineGolden] I’ve known lots of guys like that, Darkover – always gotta have something to do, work on, fiddle with.
[Demosthenes] He does get the Silmaril. Some folk would be happy with that.
[Elentari] Earendil made the choice of his fate-I’m not sure he would have chosen to be miserable
[Darkover] Could be, Chris, that Earendil is one of them, and keeping busy at his cosmic task is his way of being fulfilled, or it could be he just sees it as a responsibility
[Puma] Esther.too many random topics….Denethor is so complex.he could be a HoF topic of his own
[ChristineGolden] That never made sense to me, Demosthenes. One of the reasons Earendil supposedly kept sailing was to find his parents.
[Darkover] And has been, Puma, but I agree, Denethor should be for another time.
[Raurenkili] Earendil and elwing, right?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought that was before. On the water
[Darkover] Right, Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] So, why would he be upset about being judged among the elves if his parents were?
[Jenniearcheo] When he was stll trying to get to Valinor in the first place
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Raurenkili
[Puma] and i am sure Earendil did get to see tuor and idril again
[Esther] that is true Puma but I don’t have a lot of info about jrr or middle earth other then a few books and the movies
[Darkover] I don’t believe Earendil disliked the Elves, Chris–I think he just preferred Men
[Jenniearcheo] I read that more as a wistful saying-goodbye to his human heritage
[Puma] Earendil….took after his father
[Darkover] And whenever someone in M-E has a choice like his to make, he or she must be sundered from one species or the other.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Sometimes they go the other way
[Demosthenes] what does “weary of the world” mean?
[Darkover] At least, until the absolute end of Arda
[Jenniearcheo] Sick of war?
[Darkover] Tired of M-E? Sick of fighting?
[Darkover] Sick of having to make choices?
[Puma] weary of the world is different for the various races
[Demosthenes] the haven at the mouths of the sirion had been sacked
[Esther] sick of everything
[lightinthesky] I’d say Earendil was “weary of the world” as in the meaning of he had sailed through everthing, and became sick of it.
[Elentari] tired of the burdens placed on him by mortals
[Puma] and elves
[Demosthenes] Could the Silmaril have wearied him?
[ChristineGolden] Isn’t it that they become tired of the swift passage of time on ME?
[Demosthenes] I wondered that
[Elentari] plus, he wanted his mommy and daddy
[Esther] that seems accurate Christine
[Jenniearcheo] Then? When he made the choice? Had he had it much at that point?
[Demosthenes] jewnnie: hard to know how long they sailed for
[Puma] earendil was also lord of the havens…apparently you can inherit that position thri the female line
[Jenniearcheo] It was on her necklace for most of the time, wasn’t it?
[lunarising] i would think the Simaril would have been wearing
[Puma] thru
[Darkover] Or maybe, once you’ve seen the Valar and Valinor, you get tired of M-E
[lightinthesky] i agree with darkover
[Esther] I have to read the silmarillion for the first time Phil, if I could find it
[Darkover] Thanks, lightinthesky
[Jenniearcheo] She gave it to him, but you’d think he’d have given it back if it was weighing on him overmuch
[Puma] sil is easy to find
[lunarising] darkover: that’s always been my thinking
[Darkover] thank you, lunarising
[Demosthenes] The Valar do somehow seem to change him after?
[Darkover] I think so, Demosthenes
[Puma] yes.they do…..although eru did that
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing are given a choice
[Demosthenes] Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.
[ChristineGolden] It was the beacon leading Vingelot (sp?) to Valinor, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, most normal men wouldn’t put up with the whole flying through the stars for eternity thing
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Demosthenes] He becomes something not-human; not-elf … not entirely of the World anymore.
[Darkover] Kind of like Socrates’ “men in the cave”–once you’ve seen what else is out there, what you came from dims in comparison, and no one wants to hear about it, anyway
[lightinthesky] i mean, in apply to what darkover is saying, all the elves were longing for valinor at some point of their long, immortal lives. So it’s fair to say that he was sick of M-E and so became weary of M-E
[Elentari] Earendil went to Valinor and ever after was unsatisfied with normal life
[Romeniel] Earendil choses not to stay in Valinor, but become the Mariner who then sails the sky as the morning star
[Romeniel] his wife stayed at the shores of Valinor to greet him every day as a seabird
[Puma] and flew up to meet him
[lightinthesky] how nice of her
[Darkover] Did Earendil actually *choose* to become the Star Mariner, or was he appointed?
[lightinthesky] imo, he chose himself to be that
[Demosthenes] Yes those are the facts given in Silmarillion, Romeniel
[Romeniel] he and his wife had the last know Silmaril and he chose himself
[Puma] it seems form evidence.appointed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Earendil was a sailor at heart.
[lightinthesky] or wait.
[lightinthesky] yeah, christinegolden said it before me
[Darkover] I’m talking about his nightly voyage through the sky, you understand
[Phil] well it was either becoming the mariner or death i think
[ChristineGolden] He would have chosen, Darkover; Tolkien was real big on free will.
[Romeniel] Earendil I think was a sailor at heart anyway… it is said that this was part of the nature of his people anyway
[lightinthesky] I was about to say that, he was born with the name “lover of the sea”
[Elentari] i’m pretty sure he wanted to
[Darkover] That sounds reasonable, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Ulmo says this was his “doom”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Lover of the Sea sails high above it forever.
[Romeniel] no, he would just have had to leave Valinor for the choice he made
[lightinthesky] in a way he was both appointed, by fate and/or was destined to be it.
[Darkover] Well, “doom” doesn’t sound like something he would love to do anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Doom isn’t always negative
[Demosthenes] It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’ But Ulmo said: ‘For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?’
[ChristineGolden] Earendil sure had a lot of “doom” in his life, Demosthenes.
[Puma] doom in the sense given means fate
[Esther] I think I’m gonna have to come back for a topic I actually know a lot about lol
[Myra] same XD
[Jenniearcheo] What is Mandos’s problem?
[Demosthenes] He broke the Ban.
[Darkover] I think Mandos is just a person who takes his job very seriously, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] First, he survives the fall of Gondolin, then is kidnapped by one of Feanor’s sons. His parents sail off while Morgoth’s minions are rampaging through ME…
[Jenniearcheo] Dude should lighten up.
[Puma] a special ruling was made for earendil and elwing
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing were something between mortal and imortal… their story was the reason why never ever after something like a true Halfelf could ever be… any Elf who wed a Mortal would be forced to give up their immortality,
[Romeniel] Only two besides Earendil and Elwing who were able to chose their fate were their sons… Elrond and Elendil
[Puma] no Romeniel……idril gave up not her immortality
[Esther] I’m gonna go as well
[Jenniearcheo] Or at least had to choose
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Esther
[Romeniel] Idril was BEFORE Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] Bye, Esther, but come back again sometime
[Esther] I’ll keep this in mind though for a topic I know a lot about though lol
[ChristineGolden] Idril kept her immortality, Romeniel. Tuor, although a man, was judged as one of the firstborn.
[Darkover] The only one ever to get that distinction, I believe
[Puma] so tuor and idril had special fates also
[Jenniearcheo] About Tuor . . . where did he wind up? In Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I believe so, Darkover.
[Romeniel] And they came before Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] I think so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] According to the “Fall of Gondolin,” yes, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] If so, what’s the deal about Earendil being the “first” man to set foot there?
[Jenniearcheo] Or was Tuor dubbed “firstborn” on the shoreline?
[Darkover] Well, the first one to show up without permission, Jennie
[Romeniel] But ever since Earendil and Elwing Elves would have to chose between love and immortality… thus the choice of Arwen
[Puma] but the fate of tuor and idril is closely related to earendil…
[ChristineGolden] I think the text is silent on that one, Jen.
[Darkover] Tuor, as I understand it, was made a sort of honorary Elf
[Jenniearcheo] Except that he’d been kept away by wind and waves until then
[Demosthenes] Tuor would have run into the same issue: either a violator of the ban (by virtue of Noldorin adoption) or a Man.
[Romeniel] no rule wihtout exception
[Puma] now in the early writtings……elrond existed…elros did not exist till well after
[Romeniel] in the early writing Elrond wasn’t even a Halfelf
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Mandos was in a good mood when Tuor turned up. Maybe Ulmo made him a sweet dinner of shrimp scampi to butter him up first.
[Romeniel] he was just an Elffriend
[Darkover] And were Elrond and Elros actually twins? I believe they were, but does Tolkien ever actually state that?
[ChristineGolden] lol, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ohhh, why not. Where did that wine bottle go?”
[Romeniel] Elrond and Elros were twins
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they just ended up on Tol Eressea. Which seems to go by different rules.
[Darkover] Thank you, Romeniel and Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Sort of a doorstep island?
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s in LT.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they came after Earendil and Elwing.
[Romeniel] Elrond tended to feel more drawn to his mother’s choice to live as an Elf, Elros was favoring to be human
[Puma] from tol eressea you can visit eldamar and valmar.but not live there
[Romeniel] that is why Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins
[Darkover] Yes indeed, and from Elros, the kings of Numenor were descended
[Romeniel] distant, but cousins
[Jenniearcheo] Several times removed, of course
[Darkover] *Extremely* distant cousins
[Romeniel] Elrond is Aragorns… grandgrandgrandgrand…..xxxxx uncle
[Puma] more than 50x removed
[Jenniearcheo] “Several” being loosely defined
[ChristineGolden] That’s possible, Demosthenes, but it seems to be one of Tolkien’s “some things remain hidden” details.
[Demosthenes] I always liked Occam’s razor
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Tuor was “eventually” considered firstborn
[Puma] jrr left little hidden….he just left it to us to figure out the answers
[Lady_Celebrian] o.O
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Earendil’s three companions got the better deal?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “vague” rather than hidden
[Romeniel] sweet talking to you guys, but I need to head and sail the skies… sort of… in my dreams
[Jenniearcheo] Sure. Back to ME. No job to do.
[Puma] sweet dreams Romeniel
[Jenniearcheo] No sweet Elf wives, but perhaps that wasn’t their aim
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Romeniel
[Demosthenes] Then at the bidding of the Valar Eönwë went to the shore of Aman, where the companions of Eärendil still remained, awaiting tidings; and he took a boat, and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the East with a great wind.
[Darkover] Maybe, as readers of Tolkien, we are supposed to bear in mind that he wrote most of these stories as if he were a historian or some kind of scholar passing down historical information. In other words, somebody living years after the events happened, so in order to make it realistic, he would be fuzzy on details that couldn’t be ascertained.
[ChristineGolden] I was referring to a quote of his, although I don’t recall the exact words. Simply put, we’re not supposed to know everyting.
[Darkover] Chris just summed up what I was trying to say.
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Puma] well….the 3 sailors….were sent back for a purpose….so they could tell other people
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes. ME was about to explode into the War of Wrath. I know I’d skip that one if I could.
[Jenniearcheo] Trrue
[Jenniearcheo] Hardly a happy clappy time
[Demosthenes] So … try not to get touched by fate in Middle-earth … it usually ends bittersweet at best?
[ChristineGolden] What were they going to tell? They were on the boats the whole time.
[Puma] jrr due to his early life….did have a rather fatalistic view
[Darkover] If you have a destiny/doom, life is not rosy, true, Demosthenes
[Puma] the long defeat
[ChristineGolden] Is that possible, Demosthenes? Everyone has a fate – it just may not be a major one that changes the worl.
[ChristineGolden] It was the RC in him, Puma.
[Darkover] But he still had the attitude that evil must be resisted, regardless of whether or not you have a realistic chance of defeating it.
[Puma] correct
[Demosthenes] And, regardless, together Earendil and Elwing achieve a great good for their people.
[Jenniearcheo] History doesn’t record what happened to those three. They could’ve been on another ship when it all went down, missing the whole thing
[Demosthenes] Without them it seems that Morgoth would have ruled Middle-earth forever?
[Puma] it was said.a wind was made to send them back
[Jenniearcheo] I meant after that, Puma. During the War
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, men and elves couldn’t defeat one of the Valar, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] They sacrifice their … links … to the wider world for the benefit of that world.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil and Elwing complete the cycle of the Silmarillion.
[Puma] remember…the noldor even in the evils they did….fulfilled the wishes of eru….morgoth was bottled up in the north….instead of ranging over all arda
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, for sure. Pleading the case in Valinor, and getting the army mobilized. Certainly saved the world from Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that it was held intact
[Demosthenes] Earendil must have been very eloquent
[Demosthenes] That or the Silmaril somehow helped?
[Demosthenes] one wonders.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe he has Ulmo’s scampi recipe
[ChristineGolden] The story begins with the creation of the jewels and ends with their “disposal,” along with the rise and fall of Morgoth.
[Darkover] At last, a Silmaril was being put to good use
[Darkover] Even Maglor said so
[Puma] Earendil it was said…..spoke in quenya.sindarin….and hadorian
[Jenniearcheo] I feel sorry for Maglor.
[Demosthenes] And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds.
[Demosthenes] Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need.
[Demosthenes] And his prayer was granted.
[ChristineGolden] He was given a choice by Eonwe, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah, but if it wasn’t for Maedhros, he’d have given up on the Silmarils
[Puma] perhaps….or maybe the oath was just delayed for him
[Darkover] For all we know, Maglor could still be walking M-E
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he certainly seemed the more reasonable of the brothers
[Demosthenes] or this from Many Meetings:
[Demosthenes] He came unto the timeless halls
[Demosthenes] where shining fall the countless years,
[Demosthenes] and endless reigns the Elder King
[Demosthenes] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
[Demosthenes] and words unheard were spoken then
[Demosthenes] of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
[Demosthenes] beyond the world were visions showed
[Demosthenes] forbid to those that dwell therein.
[ChristineGolden] Every person has to make their own choices in Tolkien’s world.
[Jenniearcheo] Whining about his hand
[Puma] i always have taken it……..that maglor threw his silmaril in the sea…because he had seen elwing go into the sea with a silmaril…and it was next seen in the sky.did he hope throwing his in the sea would have the same result
[Demosthenes] Bilbo’s version is a little grimmer. Maybe.
[Darkover] I always thought he was trying to get rid of it because it burned him, Puma, and because he was just mightily sick of the oath
[Puma] that too
[ChristineGolden] The Silmarillion says it was because of the searing pain, Puma.
[Puma] remember.the sil is chris.not jrr
[Puma] and reasons can be very complex
[ChristineGolden] It is both of them, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] He edited the Sil, but he wasn’t the primary author
[Demosthenes] It’s always possible to debate “why?”
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, the only author
[Puma] well……….not really
[ChristineGolden] He was a co-author and editor.
[Puma] if you read the later sil as jrr wrote it.its nothing like chris wrote
[Jenniearcheo] Christopher pulled all sorts of things together. But they were his father’s things
[Demosthenes] It is what we have though
[Puma] chris also invented things jrr never did
[ChristineGolden] From what I understand, Puma, there were some pretty huge gapping holes in parts of the Silmarillion. Not to mention competing drafts.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing was much as jrr left it
[Puma] there were Chrsitine
[Jenniearcheo] As has been pointed out, Earendil was fairly early on
[Puma] but only in parts
[ChristineGolden] I have a question.
[Demosthenes] Shoot.
[ChristineGolden] Melian was a Maiar and was able to “assume” a body for her stay on earth.
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] So did Luthien her daughter.
[Puma] no
[ChristineGolden] So, I wonder if this was a “trait” handed down and if so, is that what happened to Elwing when she assumed the shape of birds.
[Darkover] Luthien was born in M-E, wasn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Yes Darkover
[Darkover] And I thought one of the Valar transformed Elwing
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo
[Jenniearcheo] Ulmo.
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] She was down in his sea
[Puma] and ulmo was the most connected vala with the exiles and men
[Demosthenes] Why Ulmo? That seems odd as Manwe is the lord of the air.
[Demosthenes] Tuor’s emblem was a swan though, so that’s apposite.
[Darkover] Well, I guess Ulmo didn’t want her drowning in his area
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . it was a seabird, wasn’t it?
[Demosthenes] He could have made her a flying fish?
[Jenniearcheo] And she flew to a ship. The air was only incidental to it all.
[Darkover] Then she couldn’t have gone to land, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo was different from all the other valar….he was the only one that never lost faith in eru
[Jenniearcheo] I think she had a ways to go to get to the ship
[Darkover] Uh, where are you getting that, Puma?
[Jenniearcheo] Nearly killed her, even as a bird
[Puma] from jrr
[Demosthenes] For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.
[Darkover] Doesn’t exactly narrow it down, Puma
[ChristineGolden] No, I’m talking about when Elwing was in Valinor. She often assumed the shape of a bird and flew out to greet Earendil.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring….
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, then.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, I guess once she had done it once, it became a skill
[Jenniearcheo] Well, maybe she liked the bird thing
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or maybe she learned it permanently from the maiar in Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I wonder if this was a power handed down from Melian to Luthien to Elwing. Because no other elves that I recall change form.
[Jenniearcheo] True! Luthien did that, too
[Jenniearcheo] Hmm
[Demosthenes] Well, both Luthien and Finrod assume a guise … but it an illusion, not a true shapechange.
[Puma] i would ahve to think that over.i am not sure
[Darkover] I’m still inclined to doubt that it was an inheirited trait, Chris. I think it was a gift bestowed on her by Ulmo, although that is just my opinion
[Jenniearcheo] Except she was actually flying, Dems
[Demosthenes] So yes, what Elwing does seems exceptional.
[Puma] i agree with you darkover
[ChristineGolden] Not a trait, Darkover, but a power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Elwing’s nature made the bestowal of the gift possible.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Darkover] Now that makes more sense, what Demosthenes suggests
[Demosthenes] Like opening a tap that was previously shut-off.
[Puma] it was said birds taught her to fly….not that she became a bird
[Demosthenes] So both are needed
[Demosthenes] Each is necessary, but insufficient on their own.
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (i love using that maths logic)
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] It’s an idea anyhow.
[ChristineGolden] “and her wings were of white and silver-grey.”
[Darkover] sounds like an unusually pretty seagull
[Jenniearcheo] Does Bilbo describe Vingilot more than the Sil does?
[Demosthenes] So in this way, i guess Elwing is as much changed by this as Earendil is.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing always remain elusive….we never actually see their personalities
[Jenniearcheo] And apparent armor and weapons on Earendil.
[Jenniearcheo] Is he making all that up?
[ChristineGolden] “the far-sighted among he eles that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining…”
[Darkover] Perhaps because, as the “historian,” Tolkien was just describing the big things they did, and the significance of those events, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: Elrond might have known?
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, maybe. Maybe when he tells the story it’s more complete than we’re reading it
[Puma] like a white bird.does not mean a white bird
[Demosthenes] Presumably, Glorfindel would have some knowledge of the “true” tale.
[ChristineGolden] I’d say because it is a story of deeds, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And not just a handed-down tradition.
[Jenniearcheo] Was he back to life by then?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m only skipping through this book
[Puma] its part of a muth cycle….some is detailed.other parts not
[Jenniearcheo] I’m saving Turin for a time when I’m unaccountably happy and need to come back down
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember him being mentioned in The Silmarillion after the fall of Gondolin, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, so maybe he’s still dead at this point
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[Puma] jrr explicitly says there is 1 glorfindel
[Demosthenes] jennie: dunno. I mean he’s definitely back in middle-earth in the second age.
[Darkover] Where?
[Puma] he was part of the plan
[ChristineGolden] Turin is a tough one for me, too, Jen.
[Puma] that is in peoples of middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I’m bracing myself.
[Puma] since glorfindel had little sin….and in saving earendil furtherd fate….he was released soon from mados
[Demosthenes] Does it say when soon?
[Puma] and he returned to middle earth…about 1600 2nd age
[Darkover] Yes, “soon” can be a very broad term among those who are immortal or nearly so
[ChristineGolden] “soon” in elven time could be several centuries.
[Jenniearcheo] So still dead
[Puma] yes.soon is broad
[Puma] no glorfinel was rebodied and returned
[Darkover] Glorfindel also died a very brave death, so that may have been a factor
[Puma] elves do get new bodies….after a time
[Demosthenes] jennie: I propose that he might have picked up knowledge of the tale of Earendil while he was residing in Valinor. And brought that back with him. Presumably Elrond would be interested if no-one else.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, the Sil just says, “But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away from Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, etc. etc.”
[ChristineGolden] I do think that it’s interesting that it took all of the Valar to defeat Morgoth and to destroy Angband.
[Demosthenes] How accurate or complete that tale was… hard to say.
[Jenniearcheo] “Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright.”
[Jenniearcheo] No mention of mithril and elven glass
[Darkover] Well, Good plays by rules, Jennie. Evil does not.
[Demosthenes] however:
[Demosthenes] `Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
[Demosthenes] Bilbo got up and bowed. `I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
[Puma] i think in part.glorfindel returned…to protect elrond…the last of the line of turgon
[Jenniearcheo] Nor a silver mast
[Demosthenes] So, Bilbo’s version must have been ok?
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] What is allowable exaggeration for an elf?
[Puma] he had records in rivendell.and living witnesses
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, nobody was all, “Mithril and elven glass? What!?”
[Demosthenes] poetic license if you will
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien began a Lay of Earendil, but I don’t think he ever finished it.
[Puma] he might have had some poetic liscense
[Darkover] Presumably, Bilbo’s version had no great errors, although he mentions that Aragorn warned him it was cheeky to make verses about Earendil in Elrond’s house.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ebony arrows? C’mooon:
[Darkover] So, his poem need not have been entirely accurate, either.
[Demosthenes] Well, the language is reminscent of Paradise Lost
[Puma] that just means black
[Demosthenes] Which is highly mythological.
[ChristineGolden] And allegorical, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, no, Puma. They’re talking materials throughout
[Jenniearcheo] His bow was made of dragon horn
[Demosthenes] Maybe Bilbo’s poem is meant to convey the same sort of legendary feel
[Jenniearcheo] his arrows shorn of ebony
* Puma nods
[Jenniearcheo] of silver whas his habergeon (whatever the heck that is)
[Jenniearcheo] his scabbard of chalcedony
[Puma] remember…jrr knew more meanings of words than we do
[Demosthenes] and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.’
[Jenniearcheo] his sword of steel was valiant (his sword?)
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s why Aragorn says that
[Jenniearcheo] of adamant his helmet tall
[Puma] would take a lots of research it narrow down any of his words
[Jenniearcheo] Because his descriptions were a bit on the flowery side, Dems?
[Demosthenes] Yah. I think so. Not because it’s factually incorrect.
[ChristineGolden] a habergeon is like a vest, Jen, think chain mail.
[Jenniearcheo] So Aragorn insisted on the emerald on Earendil’s breast?
[Puma] the elessar
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t say flowery as much as detailed. Tolkien was big on visual descriptions.
[Darkover] Right. Bilbo didn’t know why Aragorn was so insistent about that.
[Puma] and it did take cheek for bilbo to write a poem about elronds dad
[Demosthenes] In one tale in Unfinsihed Tales, the original Elessar stone was made in gondolin
[Puma] aragorn held both in reverence
[dwalin] k
[Jenniearcheo] RE habergeon. Thanks, ChristineGolden
[dwalin] is there anybody
[Demosthenes] I expect it’s a link in that way.
[Jenniearcheo] Lovely old words. Like Calacirian
[ChristineGolden] No problem. (I once did Camelot.)
[Darkover] Cool, Chris
[dwalin]
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry
[Jenniearcheo] I meant something else and can’t find it now
[dwalin] hey chris do you remmeber me
[Jenniearcheo] carcanet. That’s it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Bilbo’s version also talks about Earendil tarrying on errantry
[Demosthenes] But in silm, Tirion is deserted
[Puma] good chat all…..very enjoyable….i have to head out
[Jenniearcheo] Seems flowery to me
[Demosthenes] (i wonder why it was deserted)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I don’t remember how, dwalin.
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Darkover] bye, Puma
[Demosthenes] He tarried there from errantry,
[Demosthenes] and melodies they taught to him,
[Demosthenes] and sages old him marvels told,
[Demosthenes] and harps of gold they brought to him.
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, I’m terrible with names.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bilbo doesn’t mention Earendil leaving his poor wife waiting around standing in the danged water.
[Demosthenes] Nor the three mariners?
[Jenniearcheo] Details, details
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] k
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was trying to save her from the possible wrath of the Valar, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I know. Bilbo just skips over the whole thing.
[Demosthenes] jennie: which is interesting. there are little divergences.
[Jenniearcheo] I like how she makes friends with the locals, though
[Darkover] Well, when you’re composing or singing a heroic lay, you do tend to dwell on the heroic parts, and ignore the rest
[dwalin] does spmebody
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true enough!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, any other points on this topic?
[Darkover] I think we’ve about summed it up
[Demosthenes] jennie thanks for bringing up the poem.
[Jenniearcheo]
[dwalin] i know
[Demosthenes] And the fancy words.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for mentioning it in the intro page
[ChristineGolden] I think we covered the main points, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m glad I found carcanet
[Jenniearcheo] I’d gone and looked it up
[Demosthenes] Okay, i think we’re done. Thanks everyone! Next week we’ll discuss “the white rider”.
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad you could come, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Back to “Two Towers, then?
[Demosthenes] Yes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[ChristineGolden] Btw, thanks for including the reading list, Demosthenes, in the chat announcement. I really liked that.
[Demosthenes] then aragorn and arwen after that
[dwalin] cherers dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Thanks for the chat, people. See you all next time!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, that was very helpful, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] I’ll try to remember to put in a reading list from now on
[Demosthenes] seeya Darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye, all
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Apr 28 09:30:25 2013