As we all know, J R R Tolkien was, from an early age, fascinated by myth and heroic legend, reading all he could of the romances and epics of many nations.  In a letter to Milton Waldman, which appears in the Preface to the second edition of The Silmarillion, he wrote that he was ‘grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own … Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with the English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing…’

The Professor, then, had little time for the legends of King Arthur; but he did make one foray into those tales, and we are about to be able to read for ourselves the results of those labours!  Tomorrow, publishers Houghton Mifflin Harcourt release Tolkien’s narrative poem The Fall of Arthur, edited as ever by his son Christopher.  HMH’s press release tells us:

‘The Fall of Arthur, the only venture by J.R.R. Tolkien into the legends of Arthur, king of Britain, may well be regarded as his finest and most skillful achievement in the use of Old English alliterative meter, in which he brought to his transforming perceptions of the old narratives a pervasive sense of the grave and fateful nature of all that is told: of Arthur’s expedition overseas into distant heathen lands, of Guinevere’s flight from Camelot, of the great sea battle on Arthur’s return to Britain, in the portrait of the traitor Mordred, in the tormented doubts of Lancelot in his French castle.’

Alas, Tolkien never finished his poem; but amongst his manuscripts were sketches and drafts, which included ‘significant tantalizing notes. In these notes can be discerned clear if mysterious associations of the Arthurian conclusion with The Silmarillion, and the bitter ending of the love of Lancelot and Guinevere, which was never written.’

It’s a day of celebration for Tolkien fans whenever we have a chance to read more of the Professor’s work, and gain further insight into the explorations which lead to his great myth of Middle-earth.  You can read Houghton Mifflin Harcourt’s full information about the book here; and you can order your copy from Amazon by clicking here. The Fall of Arthur will also be available as an e-book.  Happy reading!

[Order The Fall of Arthur from Amazon]

What a fun movie! Dominic Monaghan (Meriadoc Brandybuck) came on board to be our wonderful narrator! Actually this film is a time capsule of many decades of pop culture history — giving us the full story on how the world has embraced Tolkien’s masterpiece THE LORD OF THE RINGS over 50 years and more!

Winner of the Outstanding Achievement Award at the Newport Beach Film Festival, RINGERS was produced in association with TheOneRing.net — this remarkable little film was forged BY fans and FOR fans, just like our website, with the production/writing talent of Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway (who hosts TORn TUESDAY every week), Jeff Marchelletta, and supercool director Carlene Cordova. It was executive produced by X-Men/Transformers guru Tom DeSanto.

With a wonderful rock-driven score and detailing all the outpouring of love bestowed on Tolkien over many generations, this film is a must-have for your digital collection! Get it on iTunes now for only $9.99!

From the original Sony Press Release:

“RINGERS is comprehensive, entertaining and informative pop culture history.”
– The Toronto Star

“…Will always be a salient part of ‘LORD OF THE RINGS’ history…
See it, absorb it, love it.” – FilmThreat

Winner of “Outstanding Achievement” Award at the
Newport Beach Film Festival

RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS

FASCINATING DOCUMENTARY CAPTURES THE HISTORY, INFLUENCE AND PHENOMENON THAT IS LORD OF THE RINGS

CULVER CITY, Calif. (September 12, 2005) – Sony invites you to return to the Shire with the release of the feature-length documentary RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS, direct to DVD.  In association with the popular fan-site TheOneRing.net, Carlene Cordova produced, directed and wrote this award-winning film with executive producer Tom DeSanto(X-Men, X2: X-Men United and Transformers), which charts the incredible influence and ripple-effect that Lord of the Rings has had on worldwide pop culture over the past five decades.  Whether you are a fan or first timer, critics agree, RINGERS, stands as the most comprehensive film documenting the ongoing impact of J.R.R. Tolkien’s literary achievement.

Dominic Monaghan (star of ABC’s Lost and the Academy Award^® winning Lord of the Rings trilogy) narrates the documentary as it looks behind the curtain between Lord of the Rings and how it inspired so many artists of different mediums.  The film moves beyond “cult classic” and through different generations unearthing the way legendary rock musicians, filmmakers, professors, actors and authors all unite under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  Interviewees included in the film are Lord of the Rings trilogy filmmaker Peter Jackson as well as Elijah Wood, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Sean Astin and David Carradine.  Infused with a dynamic rock-driven score, irreverent cut-out animation (á la Terry Gilliam), and a centerpiece audience sing-a-long, RINGERS is a genre-busting documentary that shows how a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions.

RINGERS continues the momentum of the motion picture trilogy Lord of the Rings, a winner of 17 Academy Awards including Best Picture and Best Director for Peter Jackson, who made history as the first person to direct three major feature films simultaneously. 

From the official synopsis:

Ringers: Lord of the Fans is a feature-length documentary that reveals the ongoing cultural phenomenon created by The Lord of the Rings.  Very funny and often moving, Ringers shows the hidden power behind Tolkien’s books — and how after 50 years a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions, across cultures and across time.

Shot with groundbreaking new digital technology in 24P, Ringers explores the real foundations of Middle-earth; a community of true fans who share a common bond.  Moving beyond “cult classic” and over several different generations, the film unearths academics, musicians, authors, filmmakers, and a plethora of pop junkies — the people gathered under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  From the hippie counter-culture to the electronic age; from the Bakshi animated film to Jackson’s epic trilogy; this documentary brings together extensive footage from across the globe.  With units in Los Angeles, San Diego, Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Bonn, Germany, Wellington, New Zealand, and Oxford, England, our cameras capture the most fascinating “Ringers” and Lord of the Rings events.

What began as the private amusement of a tweedy Oxford professor has now become a new mythology for the 21^st century. Ringers: Lord of the Fans shows how an adventure story published in 1954 has had dynamic ripple-effects through Western pop-culture.  Ringers carefully pulls away the veil between Tolkien’s book and the creations of art, music, and community that have been inspired by it.

Check out the official trailer here:

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

Every week on the Main Discussion Board, poster Roheryn shares a game she creates from Tolkien’s works.  We’ve been having fun playing SAST (Short Attention Span Theatre) from The Hobbit.  Come join the fun here.

In the Reading Room, posters are still discussing The Silmarillion.  They’re well into Chapter 12, “Of Men”. If you’ve ever wanted to delve into The Sil, but you weren’t sure you wanted to tackle the enormity of this deep Middle-earth history, the Reading Room is the perfect way to start.  Join them with Chapter 12 Part 1 and Part 2.

In Lord of the Rings Movie Discussion Board, we never get tired of sharing our favourite quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Stop by and let us know what yours are.

   There was a thunderous round of applause on the Feedback Discussion Board when Admin and long-time poster dernwyn pointed out that there are now banner circle pictures from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey mixed with the LotR pics!  For those who haven’t visited the Boards, you really must go take a peek.  When you read posts or visit the main pages of each Discussion Board, take a look in the upper left-hand corner of your screen.  Up until now, there have been pics from The Lord of the Rings.  Check out The Hobbit pics here.  For those of us who live on the Discussion Boards, this is Awesome!!

   Want Hobbit Movie News? Each week, TORN poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect the Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

   We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

This week on Main, noWizardMe is asking if we’ve ever met or known someone with a Tolkien inspired name, see what they had to say here.

In the Reading Room, erynion was asking for help filling in the blanks about the First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.  Check out the replies here.

On The Hobbit board the gang are once again discussing what they believe will be wrong with the next two movies, do you agree or disagree with them?  Tell us here.

Over at Off Topic, we’re once again having fun with our message board version of “Getting to know you”.  See what everyone was happy to share with us here.

We’ll share more topics next week and we hope you will come and join in the conversations!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s message boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Session Start: Sun Apr 28 07:14:46 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s chat topic: Earendil and Elwing | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin?
[Jenniearcheo] Chasin’ after sparklies rarely ends well in ME, it seems
[PippinForTheWin] hi demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready.
[Puma] Earendil….the start of all middle earth writtings
[Puma] welcome lightin thesky
[lightinthesky] thank you Puma
[Phil] welcome lightinthesky and Esther
[Demosthenes] jennie: No it doesn’t. I was thinking about that yesterday. Even when there’s notionally a happy ending, you’re left to wonder…
[Jenniearcheo] Hands burned, bitten off, etc . . .
[Esther] Thanks Phil
[Jenniearcheo] Fingers, too
[Demosthenes] Do Earendil and Elwing counter this at all?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they end up with one, but not because they were chasing after it with murderous purpose
[Puma] so….jrr was beginning to invent what later became quenya….and felt a language needed a legend….earendil was the start of the whole saga
[Esther] I didn’t know that Puma
[Puma] the very 1st lines jrr wrote of middle earth were about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] wow Puma didn’t know that
[Puma] so of great import.the start of it all
[ChristineGolden] And yet, he never finished it.
[sam] ello
[Demosthenes] jennie: Purity of purpose seems to be why they achieve what they do.
[Darkover] greetings, all!
[PippinForTheWin] hey sam
[Esther] the first words about earendil, are they in the hobbit, or where can they be found
[Puma] earendil still remains mostly legend…as does gil-galad
[PippinForTheWin] hey darkover!
[sam] sil
[Darkover] Hiya, PippinFTW!
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Well. At least he gets to sail around the skies and all.
[Jenniearcheo] What’s left to go back to at this point, anyway?
[Darkover] Howdy, Chris, Jennie, Demosthenes, Puma, and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] I hope she likes her tower.
[Puma] it was just 2 lines jrr wrote about earendil that started it all
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they get cable
[Esther] I wish they could be found
[ChristineGolden] It seems that the characters with great ‘destinies’ aren’t fated to be happy-ever-after.
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, they could have returned to their kids, not that either mother or father seemed much concerned about their twins.
[Puma] they are easy to find Esther.i think it is even in wiki about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] nobody really seems to live happily ever after, do they Christine?
[Esther] thanks Puma I’ll have a look sometime
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, sorta, “Oh, man. They got captured. Ah well. Let’s go for a sail!”
[Darkover] Maybe their is no happily ever after, except in Valinor
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe says that Earendil was born to journey to Valinor, Darkover.
[Puma] earendil was also one of most stable names….never changing…but from earendel to earendil
[Esther] very interesting
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, I’m just saying I wouldn’t give him any father of the year awards
[Puma] jrr changes most names
[Demosthenes] Darkover: even those who live in Valinor are locked to the fate of the world. So I guess elves don’t really have a happy ending.
[lightinthesky] christinegolden Earendil was, as I have read, a gift to middle-earth by the valar
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the winds and tides and whatnot kept blowing him away, until he was supposed to make it.
[Demosthenes] More of a mysterious one.
[sam] he has the blood of three races
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t give many of them “parent of the year” award, Darkover.
[Esther] I’ve read the hobbit but I am taking a very long time to get through FOTR lol
[Darkover] As I said on a previous chat, Demosthenes, Elves seem to get “contented ever after,” rather than “happily.”
[Darkover] True, Chris
[Puma] no earendil only had the blodd of 2 races
[ChristineGolden] They kept blowing him away until Elwing brought the Silmaril.
[Puma] elwing has the blood of 3
[PippinForTheWin] there are a lot of people that don’t deserve the parent of the year award… like Denethor?
[Jenniearcheo] How old were the twins at this point?
[Demosthenes] Does Earendil get a contented ever after?
[sam] no 3
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he gets the girl
[Esther] PippinForTheWin I agree about Denethor
[Puma] i think he does in a way Demz
[Jenniearcheo] And he gets to sail.
[Darkover] Denethor could have been a better dad, PippinFTW, but at least he never abandoned his kids
[Darkover] and there are differences between book and movie Denethor
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i always thought that was interesting. Another example of you need a mate to succeed in Middle-earth.
[PippinForTheWin] he would abandon Faramir if he could, Darkover… if he had another son maybe
[ChristineGolden] Usually, Demosthenes, even if it isn’t a love interest.
[sam] his grandparents were miar elf
[Esther] again I agree with PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] I’m not sure Earendil even gets “contented,” Demosthenes. I mean, he said he was weary of the world, and yet every night, he has to fly some star through the sky or whatever
[Darkover] Not much chance of getting a rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Has to or gets to?
[sam] his father human
[Demosthenes] ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father
[Puma] but earendil gets to rest every day also…..with his wife
[Darkover] That could make a difference, I admit, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Does he?
[Esther] really these chats should be about random topics lol
[ChristineGolden] I’ve known lots of guys like that, Darkover – always gotta have something to do, work on, fiddle with.
[Demosthenes] He does get the Silmaril. Some folk would be happy with that.
[Elentari] Earendil made the choice of his fate-I’m not sure he would have chosen to be miserable
[Darkover] Could be, Chris, that Earendil is one of them, and keeping busy at his cosmic task is his way of being fulfilled, or it could be he just sees it as a responsibility
[Puma] Esther.too many random topics….Denethor is so complex.he could be a HoF topic of his own
[ChristineGolden] That never made sense to me, Demosthenes. One of the reasons Earendil supposedly kept sailing was to find his parents.
[Darkover] And has been, Puma, but I agree, Denethor should be for another time.
[Raurenkili] Earendil and elwing, right?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought that was before. On the water
[Darkover] Right, Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] So, why would he be upset about being judged among the elves if his parents were?
[Jenniearcheo] When he was stll trying to get to Valinor in the first place
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Raurenkili
[Puma] and i am sure Earendil did get to see tuor and idril again
[Esther] that is true Puma but I don’t have a lot of info about jrr or middle earth other then a few books and the movies
[Darkover] I don’t believe Earendil disliked the Elves, Chris–I think he just preferred Men
[Jenniearcheo] I read that more as a wistful saying-goodbye to his human heritage
[Puma] Earendil….took after his father
[Darkover] And whenever someone in M-E has a choice like his to make, he or she must be sundered from one species or the other.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Sometimes they go the other way
[Demosthenes] what does “weary of the world” mean?
[Darkover] At least, until the absolute end of Arda
[Jenniearcheo] Sick of war?
[Darkover] Tired of M-E? Sick of fighting?
[Darkover] Sick of having to make choices?
[Puma] weary of the world is different for the various races
[Demosthenes] the haven at the mouths of the sirion had been sacked
[Esther] sick of everything
[lightinthesky] I’d say Earendil was “weary of the world” as in the meaning of he had sailed through everthing, and became sick of it.
[Elentari] tired of the burdens placed on him by mortals
[Puma] and elves
[Demosthenes] Could the Silmaril have wearied him?
[ChristineGolden] Isn’t it that they become tired of the swift passage of time on ME?
[Demosthenes] I wondered that
[Elentari] plus, he wanted his mommy and daddy
[Esther] that seems accurate Christine
[Jenniearcheo] Then? When he made the choice? Had he had it much at that point?
[Demosthenes] jewnnie: hard to know how long they sailed for
[Puma] earendil was also lord of the havens…apparently you can inherit that position thri the female line
[Jenniearcheo] It was on her necklace for most of the time, wasn’t it?
[lunarising] i would think the Simaril would have been wearing
[Puma] thru
[Darkover] Or maybe, once you’ve seen the Valar and Valinor, you get tired of M-E
[lightinthesky] i agree with darkover
[Esther] I have to read the silmarillion for the first time Phil, if I could find it
[Darkover] Thanks, lightinthesky
[Jenniearcheo] She gave it to him, but you’d think he’d have given it back if it was weighing on him overmuch
[Puma] sil is easy to find
[lunarising] darkover: that’s always been my thinking
[Darkover] thank you, lunarising
[Demosthenes] The Valar do somehow seem to change him after?
[Darkover] I think so, Demosthenes
[Puma] yes.they do…..although eru did that
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing are given a choice
[Demosthenes] Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.
[ChristineGolden] It was the beacon leading Vingelot (sp?) to Valinor, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, most normal men wouldn’t put up with the whole flying through the stars for eternity thing
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Demosthenes] He becomes something not-human; not-elf … not entirely of the World anymore.
[Darkover] Kind of like Socrates’ “men in the cave”–once you’ve seen what else is out there, what you came from dims in comparison, and no one wants to hear about it, anyway
[lightinthesky] i mean, in apply to what darkover is saying, all the elves were longing for valinor at some point of their long, immortal lives. So it’s fair to say that he was sick of M-E and so became weary of M-E
[Elentari] Earendil went to Valinor and ever after was unsatisfied with normal life
[Romeniel] Earendil choses not to stay in Valinor, but become the Mariner who then sails the sky as the morning star
[Romeniel] his wife stayed at the shores of Valinor to greet him every day as a seabird
[Puma] and flew up to meet him
[lightinthesky] how nice of her
[Darkover] Did Earendil actually *choose* to become the Star Mariner, or was he appointed?
[lightinthesky] imo, he chose himself to be that
[Demosthenes] Yes those are the facts given in Silmarillion, Romeniel
[Romeniel] he and his wife had the last know Silmaril and he chose himself
[Puma] it seems form evidence.appointed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Earendil was a sailor at heart.
[lightinthesky] or wait.
[lightinthesky] yeah, christinegolden said it before me
[Darkover] I’m talking about his nightly voyage through the sky, you understand
[Phil] well it was either becoming the mariner or death i think
[ChristineGolden] He would have chosen, Darkover; Tolkien was real big on free will.
[Romeniel] Earendil I think was a sailor at heart anyway… it is said that this was part of the nature of his people anyway
[lightinthesky] I was about to say that, he was born with the name “lover of the sea”
[Elentari] i’m pretty sure he wanted to
[Darkover] That sounds reasonable, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Ulmo says this was his “doom”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Lover of the Sea sails high above it forever.
[Romeniel] no, he would just have had to leave Valinor for the choice he made
[lightinthesky] in a way he was both appointed, by fate and/or was destined to be it.
[Darkover] Well, “doom” doesn’t sound like something he would love to do anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Doom isn’t always negative
[Demosthenes] It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’ But Ulmo said: ‘For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?’
[ChristineGolden] Earendil sure had a lot of “doom” in his life, Demosthenes.
[Puma] doom in the sense given means fate
[Esther] I think I’m gonna have to come back for a topic I actually know a lot about lol
[Myra] same XD
[Jenniearcheo] What is Mandos’s problem?
[Demosthenes] He broke the Ban.
[Darkover] I think Mandos is just a person who takes his job very seriously, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] First, he survives the fall of Gondolin, then is kidnapped by one of Feanor’s sons. His parents sail off while Morgoth’s minions are rampaging through ME…
[Jenniearcheo] Dude should lighten up.
[Puma] a special ruling was made for earendil and elwing
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing were something between mortal and imortal… their story was the reason why never ever after something like a true Halfelf could ever be… any Elf who wed a Mortal would be forced to give up their immortality,
[Romeniel] Only two besides Earendil and Elwing who were able to chose their fate were their sons… Elrond and Elendil
[Puma] no Romeniel……idril gave up not her immortality
[Esther] I’m gonna go as well
[Jenniearcheo] Or at least had to choose
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Esther
[Romeniel] Idril was BEFORE Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] Bye, Esther, but come back again sometime
[Esther] I’ll keep this in mind though for a topic I know a lot about though lol
[ChristineGolden] Idril kept her immortality, Romeniel. Tuor, although a man, was judged as one of the firstborn.
[Darkover] The only one ever to get that distinction, I believe
[Puma] so tuor and idril had special fates also
[Jenniearcheo] About Tuor . . . where did he wind up? In Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I believe so, Darkover.
[Romeniel] And they came before Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] I think so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] According to the “Fall of Gondolin,” yes, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] If so, what’s the deal about Earendil being the “first” man to set foot there?
[Jenniearcheo] Or was Tuor dubbed “firstborn” on the shoreline?
[Darkover] Well, the first one to show up without permission, Jennie
[Romeniel] But ever since Earendil and Elwing Elves would have to chose between love and immortality… thus the choice of Arwen
[Puma] but the fate of tuor and idril is closely related to earendil…
[ChristineGolden] I think the text is silent on that one, Jen.
[Darkover] Tuor, as I understand it, was made a sort of honorary Elf
[Jenniearcheo] Except that he’d been kept away by wind and waves until then
[Demosthenes] Tuor would have run into the same issue: either a violator of the ban (by virtue of Noldorin adoption) or a Man.
[Romeniel] no rule wihtout exception
[Puma] now in the early writtings……elrond existed…elros did not exist till well after
[Romeniel] in the early writing Elrond wasn’t even a Halfelf
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Mandos was in a good mood when Tuor turned up. Maybe Ulmo made him a sweet dinner of shrimp scampi to butter him up first.
[Romeniel] he was just an Elffriend
[Darkover] And were Elrond and Elros actually twins? I believe they were, but does Tolkien ever actually state that?
[ChristineGolden] lol, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ohhh, why not. Where did that wine bottle go?”
[Romeniel] Elrond and Elros were twins
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they just ended up on Tol Eressea. Which seems to go by different rules.
[Darkover] Thank you, Romeniel and Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Sort of a doorstep island?
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s in LT.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they came after Earendil and Elwing.
[Romeniel] Elrond tended to feel more drawn to his mother’s choice to live as an Elf, Elros was favoring to be human
[Puma] from tol eressea you can visit eldamar and valmar.but not live there
[Romeniel] that is why Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins
[Darkover] Yes indeed, and from Elros, the kings of Numenor were descended
[Romeniel] distant, but cousins
[Jenniearcheo] Several times removed, of course
[Darkover] *Extremely* distant cousins
[Romeniel] Elrond is Aragorns… grandgrandgrandgrand…..xxxxx uncle
[Puma] more than 50x removed
[Jenniearcheo] “Several” being loosely defined
[ChristineGolden] That’s possible, Demosthenes, but it seems to be one of Tolkien’s “some things remain hidden” details.
[Demosthenes] I always liked Occam’s razor
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Tuor was “eventually” considered firstborn
[Puma] jrr left little hidden….he just left it to us to figure out the answers
[Lady_Celebrian] o.O
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Earendil’s three companions got the better deal?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “vague” rather than hidden
[Romeniel] sweet talking to you guys, but I need to head and sail the skies… sort of… in my dreams
[Jenniearcheo] Sure. Back to ME. No job to do.
[Puma] sweet dreams Romeniel
[Jenniearcheo] No sweet Elf wives, but perhaps that wasn’t their aim
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Romeniel
[Demosthenes] Then at the bidding of the Valar Eönwë went to the shore of Aman, where the companions of Eärendil still remained, awaiting tidings; and he took a boat, and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the East with a great wind.
[Darkover] Maybe, as readers of Tolkien, we are supposed to bear in mind that he wrote most of these stories as if he were a historian or some kind of scholar passing down historical information. In other words, somebody living years after the events happened, so in order to make it realistic, he would be fuzzy on details that couldn’t be ascertained.
[ChristineGolden] I was referring to a quote of his, although I don’t recall the exact words. Simply put, we’re not supposed to know everyting.
[Darkover] Chris just summed up what I was trying to say.
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Puma] well….the 3 sailors….were sent back for a purpose….so they could tell other people
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes. ME was about to explode into the War of Wrath. I know I’d skip that one if I could.
[Jenniearcheo] Trrue
[Jenniearcheo] Hardly a happy clappy time
[Demosthenes] So … try not to get touched by fate in Middle-earth … it usually ends bittersweet at best?
[ChristineGolden] What were they going to tell? They were on the boats the whole time.
[Puma] jrr due to his early life….did have a rather fatalistic view
[Darkover] If you have a destiny/doom, life is not rosy, true, Demosthenes
[Puma] the long defeat
[ChristineGolden] Is that possible, Demosthenes? Everyone has a fate – it just may not be a major one that changes the worl.
[ChristineGolden] It was the RC in him, Puma.
[Darkover] But he still had the attitude that evil must be resisted, regardless of whether or not you have a realistic chance of defeating it.
[Puma] correct
[Demosthenes] And, regardless, together Earendil and Elwing achieve a great good for their people.
[Jenniearcheo] History doesn’t record what happened to those three. They could’ve been on another ship when it all went down, missing the whole thing
[Demosthenes] Without them it seems that Morgoth would have ruled Middle-earth forever?
[Puma] it was said.a wind was made to send them back
[Jenniearcheo] I meant after that, Puma. During the War
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, men and elves couldn’t defeat one of the Valar, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] They sacrifice their … links … to the wider world for the benefit of that world.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil and Elwing complete the cycle of the Silmarillion.
[Puma] remember…the noldor even in the evils they did….fulfilled the wishes of eru….morgoth was bottled up in the north….instead of ranging over all arda
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, for sure. Pleading the case in Valinor, and getting the army mobilized. Certainly saved the world from Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that it was held intact
[Demosthenes] Earendil must have been very eloquent
[Demosthenes] That or the Silmaril somehow helped?
[Demosthenes] one wonders.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe he has Ulmo’s scampi recipe
[ChristineGolden] The story begins with the creation of the jewels and ends with their “disposal,” along with the rise and fall of Morgoth.
[Darkover] At last, a Silmaril was being put to good use
[Darkover] Even Maglor said so
[Puma] Earendil it was said…..spoke in quenya.sindarin….and hadorian
[Jenniearcheo] I feel sorry for Maglor.
[Demosthenes] And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds.
[Demosthenes] Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need.
[Demosthenes] And his prayer was granted.
[ChristineGolden] He was given a choice by Eonwe, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah, but if it wasn’t for Maedhros, he’d have given up on the Silmarils
[Puma] perhaps….or maybe the oath was just delayed for him
[Darkover] For all we know, Maglor could still be walking M-E
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he certainly seemed the more reasonable of the brothers
[Demosthenes] or this from Many Meetings:
[Demosthenes] He came unto the timeless halls
[Demosthenes] where shining fall the countless years,
[Demosthenes] and endless reigns the Elder King
[Demosthenes] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
[Demosthenes] and words unheard were spoken then
[Demosthenes] of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
[Demosthenes] beyond the world were visions showed
[Demosthenes] forbid to those that dwell therein.
[ChristineGolden] Every person has to make their own choices in Tolkien’s world.
[Jenniearcheo] Whining about his hand
[Puma] i always have taken it……..that maglor threw his silmaril in the sea…because he had seen elwing go into the sea with a silmaril…and it was next seen in the sky.did he hope throwing his in the sea would have the same result
[Demosthenes] Bilbo’s version is a little grimmer. Maybe.
[Darkover] I always thought he was trying to get rid of it because it burned him, Puma, and because he was just mightily sick of the oath
[Puma] that too
[ChristineGolden] The Silmarillion says it was because of the searing pain, Puma.
[Puma] remember.the sil is chris.not jrr
[Puma] and reasons can be very complex
[ChristineGolden] It is both of them, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] He edited the Sil, but he wasn’t the primary author
[Demosthenes] It’s always possible to debate “why?”
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, the only author
[Puma] well……….not really
[ChristineGolden] He was a co-author and editor.
[Puma] if you read the later sil as jrr wrote it.its nothing like chris wrote
[Jenniearcheo] Christopher pulled all sorts of things together. But they were his father’s things
[Demosthenes] It is what we have though
[Puma] chris also invented things jrr never did
[ChristineGolden] From what I understand, Puma, there were some pretty huge gapping holes in parts of the Silmarillion. Not to mention competing drafts.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing was much as jrr left it
[Puma] there were Chrsitine
[Jenniearcheo] As has been pointed out, Earendil was fairly early on
[Puma] but only in parts
[ChristineGolden] I have a question.
[Demosthenes] Shoot.
[ChristineGolden] Melian was a Maiar and was able to “assume” a body for her stay on earth.
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] So did Luthien her daughter.
[Puma] no
[ChristineGolden] So, I wonder if this was a “trait” handed down and if so, is that what happened to Elwing when she assumed the shape of birds.
[Darkover] Luthien was born in M-E, wasn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Yes Darkover
[Darkover] And I thought one of the Valar transformed Elwing
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo
[Jenniearcheo] Ulmo.
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] She was down in his sea
[Puma] and ulmo was the most connected vala with the exiles and men
[Demosthenes] Why Ulmo? That seems odd as Manwe is the lord of the air.
[Demosthenes] Tuor’s emblem was a swan though, so that’s apposite.
[Darkover] Well, I guess Ulmo didn’t want her drowning in his area
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . it was a seabird, wasn’t it?
[Demosthenes] He could have made her a flying fish?
[Jenniearcheo] And she flew to a ship. The air was only incidental to it all.
[Darkover] Then she couldn’t have gone to land, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo was different from all the other valar….he was the only one that never lost faith in eru
[Jenniearcheo] I think she had a ways to go to get to the ship
[Darkover] Uh, where are you getting that, Puma?
[Jenniearcheo] Nearly killed her, even as a bird
[Puma] from jrr
[Demosthenes] For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.
[Darkover] Doesn’t exactly narrow it down, Puma
[ChristineGolden] No, I’m talking about when Elwing was in Valinor. She often assumed the shape of a bird and flew out to greet Earendil.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring….
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, then.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, I guess once she had done it once, it became a skill
[Jenniearcheo] Well, maybe she liked the bird thing
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or maybe she learned it permanently from the maiar in Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I wonder if this was a power handed down from Melian to Luthien to Elwing. Because no other elves that I recall change form.
[Jenniearcheo] True! Luthien did that, too
[Jenniearcheo] Hmm
[Demosthenes] Well, both Luthien and Finrod assume a guise … but it an illusion, not a true shapechange.
[Puma] i would ahve to think that over.i am not sure
[Darkover] I’m still inclined to doubt that it was an inheirited trait, Chris. I think it was a gift bestowed on her by Ulmo, although that is just my opinion
[Jenniearcheo] Except she was actually flying, Dems
[Demosthenes] So yes, what Elwing does seems exceptional.
[Puma] i agree with you darkover
[ChristineGolden] Not a trait, Darkover, but a power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Elwing’s nature made the bestowal of the gift possible.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Darkover] Now that makes more sense, what Demosthenes suggests
[Demosthenes] Like opening a tap that was previously shut-off.
[Puma] it was said birds taught her to fly….not that she became a bird
[Demosthenes] So both are needed
[Demosthenes] Each is necessary, but insufficient on their own.
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (i love using that maths logic)
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] It’s an idea anyhow.
[ChristineGolden] “and her wings were of white and silver-grey.”
[Darkover] sounds like an unusually pretty seagull
[Jenniearcheo] Does Bilbo describe Vingilot more than the Sil does?
[Demosthenes] So in this way, i guess Elwing is as much changed by this as Earendil is.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing always remain elusive….we never actually see their personalities
[Jenniearcheo] And apparent armor and weapons on Earendil.
[Jenniearcheo] Is he making all that up?
[ChristineGolden] “the far-sighted among he eles that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining…”
[Darkover] Perhaps because, as the “historian,” Tolkien was just describing the big things they did, and the significance of those events, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: Elrond might have known?
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, maybe. Maybe when he tells the story it’s more complete than we’re reading it
[Puma] like a white bird.does not mean a white bird
[Demosthenes] Presumably, Glorfindel would have some knowledge of the “true” tale.
[ChristineGolden] I’d say because it is a story of deeds, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And not just a handed-down tradition.
[Jenniearcheo] Was he back to life by then?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m only skipping through this book
[Puma] its part of a muth cycle….some is detailed.other parts not
[Jenniearcheo] I’m saving Turin for a time when I’m unaccountably happy and need to come back down
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember him being mentioned in The Silmarillion after the fall of Gondolin, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, so maybe he’s still dead at this point
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[Puma] jrr explicitly says there is 1 glorfindel
[Demosthenes] jennie: dunno. I mean he’s definitely back in middle-earth in the second age.
[Darkover] Where?
[Puma] he was part of the plan
[ChristineGolden] Turin is a tough one for me, too, Jen.
[Puma] that is in peoples of middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I’m bracing myself.
[Puma] since glorfindel had little sin….and in saving earendil furtherd fate….he was released soon from mados
[Demosthenes] Does it say when soon?
[Puma] and he returned to middle earth…about 1600 2nd age
[Darkover] Yes, “soon” can be a very broad term among those who are immortal or nearly so
[ChristineGolden] “soon” in elven time could be several centuries.
[Jenniearcheo] So still dead
[Puma] yes.soon is broad
[Puma] no glorfinel was rebodied and returned
[Darkover] Glorfindel also died a very brave death, so that may have been a factor
[Puma] elves do get new bodies….after a time
[Demosthenes] jennie: I propose that he might have picked up knowledge of the tale of Earendil while he was residing in Valinor. And brought that back with him. Presumably Elrond would be interested if no-one else.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, the Sil just says, “But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away from Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, etc. etc.”
[ChristineGolden] I do think that it’s interesting that it took all of the Valar to defeat Morgoth and to destroy Angband.
[Demosthenes] How accurate or complete that tale was… hard to say.
[Jenniearcheo] “Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright.”
[Jenniearcheo] No mention of mithril and elven glass
[Darkover] Well, Good plays by rules, Jennie. Evil does not.
[Demosthenes] however:
[Demosthenes] `Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
[Demosthenes] Bilbo got up and bowed. `I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
[Puma] i think in part.glorfindel returned…to protect elrond…the last of the line of turgon
[Jenniearcheo] Nor a silver mast
[Demosthenes] So, Bilbo’s version must have been ok?
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] What is allowable exaggeration for an elf?
[Puma] he had records in rivendell.and living witnesses
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, nobody was all, “Mithril and elven glass? What!?”
[Demosthenes] poetic license if you will
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien began a Lay of Earendil, but I don’t think he ever finished it.
[Puma] he might have had some poetic liscense
[Darkover] Presumably, Bilbo’s version had no great errors, although he mentions that Aragorn warned him it was cheeky to make verses about Earendil in Elrond’s house.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ebony arrows? C’mooon:
[Darkover] So, his poem need not have been entirely accurate, either.
[Demosthenes] Well, the language is reminscent of Paradise Lost
[Puma] that just means black
[Demosthenes] Which is highly mythological.
[ChristineGolden] And allegorical, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, no, Puma. They’re talking materials throughout
[Jenniearcheo] His bow was made of dragon horn
[Demosthenes] Maybe Bilbo’s poem is meant to convey the same sort of legendary feel
[Jenniearcheo] his arrows shorn of ebony
* Puma nods
[Jenniearcheo] of silver whas his habergeon (whatever the heck that is)
[Jenniearcheo] his scabbard of chalcedony
[Puma] remember…jrr knew more meanings of words than we do
[Demosthenes] and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.’
[Jenniearcheo] his sword of steel was valiant (his sword?)
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s why Aragorn says that
[Jenniearcheo] of adamant his helmet tall
[Puma] would take a lots of research it narrow down any of his words
[Jenniearcheo] Because his descriptions were a bit on the flowery side, Dems?
[Demosthenes] Yah. I think so. Not because it’s factually incorrect.
[ChristineGolden] a habergeon is like a vest, Jen, think chain mail.
[Jenniearcheo] So Aragorn insisted on the emerald on Earendil’s breast?
[Puma] the elessar
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t say flowery as much as detailed. Tolkien was big on visual descriptions.
[Darkover] Right. Bilbo didn’t know why Aragorn was so insistent about that.
[Puma] and it did take cheek for bilbo to write a poem about elronds dad
[Demosthenes] In one tale in Unfinsihed Tales, the original Elessar stone was made in gondolin
[Puma] aragorn held both in reverence
[dwalin] k
[Jenniearcheo] RE habergeon. Thanks, ChristineGolden
[dwalin] is there anybody
[Demosthenes] I expect it’s a link in that way.
[Jenniearcheo] Lovely old words. Like Calacirian
[ChristineGolden] No problem. (I once did Camelot.)
[Darkover] Cool, Chris
[dwalin]
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry
[Jenniearcheo] I meant something else and can’t find it now
[dwalin] hey chris do you remmeber me
[Jenniearcheo] carcanet. That’s it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Bilbo’s version also talks about Earendil tarrying on errantry
[Demosthenes] But in silm, Tirion is deserted
[Puma] good chat all…..very enjoyable….i have to head out
[Jenniearcheo] Seems flowery to me
[Demosthenes] (i wonder why it was deserted)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I don’t remember how, dwalin.
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Darkover] bye, Puma
[Demosthenes] He tarried there from errantry,
[Demosthenes] and melodies they taught to him,
[Demosthenes] and sages old him marvels told,
[Demosthenes] and harps of gold they brought to him.
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, I’m terrible with names.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bilbo doesn’t mention Earendil leaving his poor wife waiting around standing in the danged water.
[Demosthenes] Nor the three mariners?
[Jenniearcheo] Details, details
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] k
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was trying to save her from the possible wrath of the Valar, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I know. Bilbo just skips over the whole thing.
[Demosthenes] jennie: which is interesting. there are little divergences.
[Jenniearcheo] I like how she makes friends with the locals, though
[Darkover] Well, when you’re composing or singing a heroic lay, you do tend to dwell on the heroic parts, and ignore the rest
[dwalin] does spmebody
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true enough!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, any other points on this topic?
[Darkover] I think we’ve about summed it up
[Demosthenes] jennie thanks for bringing up the poem.
[Jenniearcheo]
[dwalin] i know
[Demosthenes] And the fancy words.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for mentioning it in the intro page
[ChristineGolden] I think we covered the main points, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m glad I found carcanet
[Jenniearcheo] I’d gone and looked it up
[Demosthenes] Okay, i think we’re done. Thanks everyone! Next week we’ll discuss “the white rider”.
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad you could come, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Back to “Two Towers, then?
[Demosthenes] Yes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[ChristineGolden] Btw, thanks for including the reading list, Demosthenes, in the chat announcement. I really liked that.
[Demosthenes] then aragorn and arwen after that
[dwalin] cherers dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Thanks for the chat, people. See you all next time!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, that was very helpful, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] I’ll try to remember to put in a reading list from now on
[Demosthenes] seeya Darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye, all
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Apr 28 09:30:25 2013

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

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Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath.

The story of Eärendil and Elwing

Of all these tales, the ending of Eärendil and Elwing almost seems the closest we get to a happy ending. Eärendil and Elwing are able to stay together despite their trespass of Valinor. But, like the other tales, is there a bittersweet note?

Is the doom that Manwë pronounces upon them a reward, or a punishment? After all, neither may ever return to Middle-earth. In the Silmarillion text, it’s not even certain the pair are permitted to meet with Valinor’s elves. Are they that separate in their fate?

And in the choice — mortality or immortality — forced upon the pair it’s not entirely clear that Eärendil is anything more than reluctant in his acceptance. Are the Valar just? Are the three companion mariners of the tale who Eönwë returns to Middle-earth truly the fortunate ones?

What alternate insights does Bilbo’s retelling give us into the tale?

And, time permitting, we’ll also examine the alternate early versions that Tolkien outlines in the second Book of Lost Tales.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday April 27 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the story of Eärendil and Elwing.

Recommended reading:
* The Silmarillion Chapter XXIV — Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
* The Fellowship of the Rings Book II Chapter I — Many Meetings
* The Book of Lost Tales II — The Tale of Eärendil

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You know the story of the mythological Greek king, Sisyphus, right?

For those who don’t recall, Sisyphus was just too crafty for his own good. So the Greek gods, never tolerant of being made to look foolish, designed for him the most frustrating of punishments: Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge boulder up a steep hill. Just before he could reach the top, it would roll back down, forcing him to begin all over again.

Consistency and canon in Tolkien always feels a bit like that — something that hovers just out our of reach. More, the harder you push for it, the more it slips away from you.

The answer you seek isn’t in quite The Lord of the Rings, so you start examining what Tolkien wrote in the published Silmarillion. But that’s still too vague, so you delve into Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle Earth. You might find some hints, but they’re at best fragmentary, or worse, the stories offer conflicting information!

Of course, as humans we feel compelled to seek consistency and place things within a coherent framework — a framework that does not always exist.

Which is why people twist themselves into knots of logic to try and make sense of conflicting evidence of whether Balrogs do or do not have wings.

Or whether Galadriel departed Valinor with Feanor’s rebels, or — as Tolkien later preferred but never integrated into the Quenta Silmarillion texts — left independently but at the same time.

Or… well, I could go on, but I’m sure you get the idea.

Tolkien canon has a natural limit…

The fact is that no matter how hard you work at it, no matter how many resources you consult, there’s a limit to how consistent you can make canon. For some things in Arda, there is simply no single, definitive answer.

My take is that this inevitable inconsistency is not not only not necessarily bad, but actually a good thing. This may seem counter-intuitive, but I believe the uncertainty about “factual truth” works to increase our investment in the story.

Why? It makes us ask questions and discuss what “really” happened. We question and discuss not in the hope of a definitive answer, but as a means of discussing alternatives hypotheses.

It’s worth considering that history — or more precisely — our knowledge of it, is messy and fractured. And the further one tries to delve into history, the more fragmentary and conflicting this knowledge tends to become.

This is self-evident. Oral traditions fail; records are lost, destroyed.

The fractured, incomplete and contradictory nature of Tolkien’s legendarium mirrors this — and this is one of the keys to its deep verisimilitude.

It helps make it more believable, not less.

Just think how many ancient records of the Edain would have been lost in the Akallabeth when Numenor sank beneath the waves. Consider how many more would have been lost in the sack of Ost-in-Edhil by Sauron, in the destruction of Osgiliath during Gondor’s terrible kin-strife, and in the decades when Arnor dissolved under the twin influence of internal strife and the assaults of Angmar. More — much more — was lost than just the Palantiri, I fancy.

“…the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.” Appendix B, Lord of the Rings.

That last sentence has often puzzled; people wonder exactly how Galadriel might have accomplished such a task. More, why is she doing now what ought to have been accomplished when the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur years before?

The parallels with Luthien’s destruction of Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Conveniently, the tale of Beren and Lúthien offers some guidance: after Lúthien rescues Beren from the captivity of Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, she puts forth her power to accomplish exactly the same feat.

“Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moon light, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron.” Of Beren and Lúthien, The Silmarillion.

The trick is that in this instance Lúthien’s power derives from the mastery of the tower that she had just wrenched from the defeated Sauron.

Christopher Tolkien confirms as much in his commentary on the Tale of Tinúviel in the second Book of Lost Tales. CJRT draws a clear thread from the Silmarillion version back to the proto-tale which describes how Tinúviel and Huan, the Captain of Dogs, extract from Tevildo the Lord of Cats (a kind of proto-Sauron) the words of magic that bind the stones of Tevildo’s tower together. Tinúviel then uses these words to reduce the fortress to rubble.

“So it was that in the end that weariness and hunger and fear prevailed upon that proud cat, a prince in the service of Melko, to reveal … the spell that Melko had entrusted to him; and those were the words of magic whereby the stones of his evil house were held together.” The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, The Tale of Tinúviel.

CJRT also adds:

“…since my father did not actually say there (in the Silmarillion) that Sauron told Lúthien what the words were, only that he ‘yielded himself’, one may miss the significance of what happened”. The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, The Tale of Tinúviel.

Following this line of logic, I believe it’s not entirely out of the question that in defeating the forces of Dol Guldur, Galadriel compelled a similar mastery from Sauron’s chosen lieutenant. Then, with the secrets of Dol Guldur in hand, she was able to destroy it in a way that the White council was unable to accomplish in TA 2941.

If you’ve ever wanted to explore The Silmarillion, the Reading Room has been discussing the Sil chapter by chapter.  In this special edition of Weekly Roundup, we’ve collected the links to the active threads (still open for further thoughts and comments) so you can join the on-going discussion of the creation of J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth.

Silmarillion discussion:

Ainulindale

Valaquenta

Chapter 1,  Of the Beginning of Days

Chapter 2, Of Aulë and Yavanna

Chapter 3, Of the Coming of the Elves

Chapter 4, Of Thingol and Melian 

Chapter 5, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie,

     Part 1 – Who Goes and Who Stays

     Part 2 – The Great Teleri Compromise and a Guided Tour…

     Part 3 – Meet the Noldor Cast  

     Part 4, Conclusion – Go Teleri on the Mountain…

Chapter 6, Of Feanor and the Unchaining Of Melkor  

     Part 1 – Of Feanor…

     Part 2 – …and the Unchaining Of Melkor

Chapter 7, Of The Silmirals and the Unrest of the Noldor

Chapter 8, Of the Darkening of Valinor

Volunteers for next few Silmarillion chapters?

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,500 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Session Start: Sun Apr 14 07:13:01 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Let’s kick off.
[Demosthenes] Odd observation to begin: we speak of Aragorn and Arwen. And Beren and Luthien. But … why is it Idril and Tuor? I found that interesting.
[Puma] good point
[miriel] very easy
[Puma] but idril was a great power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t understand. Why not?
[miriel] Ara vs Arw
[miriel] B vs L
[miriel] I vs T
[miriel] just alphabetical
[miriel] logical order
[miriel] makes them all equal, IMO
[Demosthenes] Hmm, is that it?
[ChristineGolden] Idril and Tuor were one of the three great unions of elves and men.
[Puma] tuor was not of the 1st line of chieftains of house of hador
[miriel] oh
[Puma] house of hador
[miriel] and also, Tuor joined the Elves in their fate
[Puma] yes
[miriel] unlike the others
[Puma] the only one to be so admitted
[brennil] Tuor was pretty much just a wanderer till he came to Gondolin, right?
[miriel] where it was the elf that joined the Men
[ChristineGolden] Without Tuor and Idril, there is no Earendil, so I think their union was very important.
[Puma] well……tuor had never known his father or mother
[miriel] indeed, it was
[Darkover] Greetings, all!
[Puma] when 1st written….idril and tuor was the 1st union of elves and edain
[Demosthenes] I don’t think that either Aragorn or Beren came from great estates either. Maybe higher on renown, but … not much in the way of possessions.
[ChristineGolden] Plus, Turgon was the High King of the Noldor, so the fall of Gondolin would be noteworthy.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] That’s an interesting parallel between the three in fact.
[Darkover] howdy, Chris!
[miriel] one important change from other unions as well: the father gave away his daughter´s hand without any complaints
[miriel] hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] They all start from reduced circumstances.
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel! Hello, Demosthenes!
[Puma] yes.turgon was actually happy about the union
[Demosthenes] hiya Darkover
[Finarfin] I like what miriel said earlier about Tuor joining Idril’s fate. It’s as if the “leader” of the pair is the one whose fate is shared by both.
[Elrenia] Hi everyone
[Darkover] Tuor was sent by the Valar, though, wasn’t he? So he sort of had that going for him
[ChristineGolden] Ulmo, I believe.
[Puma] but tuor was raised by elves in hiding….then he was enslaved by the evil men in hithlum
[Demosthenes] Finarfin: well, i wondered if the naming order implied that /idril/ is the … boss … for want of a better word.
[miriel] and indeed: Idril was the one that plotted the secret tunnel, which ultimately saved their lives
[Finarfin] haha
[miriel] ulmo, indeed chris
[Finarfin] maybe so
[Darkover] Right, thanks Chris
[Finarfin] g2g early friends
[Darkover] Hi, Elrenia
[Finarfin] adieu
[Puma] in LT2.it says idril had a great great gift of foresight….not gone into in sil
[miriel] hi all new names
[miriel] it is mentioned there as well puma
[Puma] ah
[Demosthenes] Yeah it is. In relation to the secret way in particular.,
[Puma] and idril did bear arms…..the other 2 did not
[Demosthenes] I don’t think Luthien needed weapons. she proved that pretty well in morgoth’s throne room.
[Mimi_Sardinia] other two?
[miriel] “but idril celebrindal was wise and far-seeing, and her heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit as a cloud”
[miriel] ^silm
[Puma] true enough….luthien had vast power
[ChrisHobbit] Helloooo my elvish friends
[Darkover] Maybe we could say Luthien didn’t need conventional weapons, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Puma] miriel….in lt2 more detail is given….saying her gift was way beyond others
[Demosthenes] So what is it about this pair that makes them great?
[Darkover] Tuor was so much like an elf, didn’t the Elves of Gondolin initially find it hard to believe he was a mortal Man?
[Darkover] It’s like he was an honorary Elf, having been raised among them, and among them more than among Men
[miriel] indeed darkover
[Puma] well.tuor was the tallest of all the edain
[ChristineGolden] 1) They were the parents of Earendil and 2) they saved the remnants of the Noldor in Gondolin.
[Darkover] And we know of Tolkien’s obsession with height
[miriel] but that was also due to the fact that he spoke with the …urging of ulmo, one could say
[ChristineGolden] Without them, wouldn’t the line of the high kings have died out?
[Puma] but when tuor went to gondolin….he had no experience with women at all…but for those that had enslaved and mistreated him
[Darkover] Quite so. How many other Men, or Elves, can say that, Miriel?
[miriel] indeed
[Puma] yes.it is thru idril and tuor that the line of finwe survived
[Tim_Bombadil] Ho ho Ho! Dallydo Dally dum, Tim Bombadil thinks this is Fun!
[ChristineGolden] And came together with the line of Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the union of the lines of the peredhil
[Demosthenes] luck?
[miriel] it is interesting to see how they all sooner or later marry in the great lines
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[ChrisHobbit] seems like you guys have much more knowledge of this then i do
[miriel] apart from dwarves and elves
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think it was luck as much as fate, Demosthenes, fate with a healthy dose of free will.
[Puma] its also one tale in which a vala did take an active part….which was not the norm
[Puma] i mean in person
[Puma] and surely turgon remembered the words of huor to him at the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor dilly dallied far too long, So long he almost missed Turgon’s song!
[Puma] out of your house and mine.a new star shall arise
[Darkover] literally, it seems
[Puma] in gondolin.tuor receieved an education such as no otehr of the edain had had….
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether the real greatness of Idril and Tuor lies in saving the remnant of the Gondolindrim. Which, a bit like Boromir’s long ride from Gondor to Rivendell gets a bare few lines of description.
[Demosthenes] A sort of Dunkirk, if you will.
[Puma] its one of my great sadnesses that jrr never finished the post lotr version of fall of gondolin
[ChristineGolden] I like that comparison. It’s very “apt.”
[Darkover] Right. Nobody ever sings any songs about the people who just take care of business. Eowyn would understand that.
[Puma] also of borondirs ride to get the eotheod
[Demosthenes] From Cirion and Eorl?
[ChristineGolden] “They also serve who only stand and wait,” Darkover?
[Puma] but yes.the saving of a remnant of gondolin was of great import
[Demosthenes] That’s a bit like Phidippides marathon run.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, exactly! But they don’t get as much, if any, praise.
[miriel] I think the main point is that they saved themselves
[Puma] gondolin did have the highest culture of the noldor
[miriel] aaand a couple of other people just tagged along
[Puma] glorfindel earned a right to a swift return to life….for furthering the escape
[ChristineGolden] I think the most important part of the tale, other than as another step toward the coming of the Valar, the story’s main importance is Earendil.
[Demosthenes] They do seem to “run” the refugee camp? at the mouths of the sirion?
[Puma] and actually they saved a good number of people
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] And Elves have come perilously close to being wiped out several times, Elder race or not. Men may be weaker, but we seem to have better survival power as a species.
[brennil] Idril seemed to be wise, well-respected. Why didn’t she warn the others when she felt a dark foreboding?
[miriel] we are just more adaptive, I think Darkover
[miriel] r-strateges
[Demosthenes] Turgon was stubborn. If he’s not going to listen to Ulmo, who will he listen to?
[ChristineGolden] A lot of the elven kingdoms had isolated themselves, Darkover, allowing Morgoth to ‘divide and conquer.’
[miriel] vs K-strateges
[brennil] elves get too comfortable in their long lives
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. Idril and Tuor are so important, for all the reasons we’ve enumerated here.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe she did, but either they didn’t believe her or thought it not very likely.
[Puma] i am glad we are discussing them.they seem to get short shrift compared to the other 2
[Demosthenes] in some ways, Tuor’s mission from Ulmo was a vain one. Mission impossible.
[Darkover] Right, Chris. And Miriel, there’s nothing “just” about being able to adapt, it is a survival characteristic. Elves may be hardier, but they never seem to want anything to change.
[Demosthenes] And in that way maybe a red herring
[Puma] turon had grown to proud
[Puma] turgon
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. The Valar may give good advice, but that doesn’t mean others take it.
[miriel] indeed, I think that the separating is a bad thing. Many times we see that together they stand, separated they fall
[Puma] about the possession of gondolin….and we know over possessivness is never rewarded in jrr
[Demosthenes] Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: ‘Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.’
[Demosthenes] But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it;
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though not a total red herring, they survived and Earendil lived to reach Valinor
[Demosthenes] Also, Maeglin
[Darkover] True, Miriel, but as members of the race of Men, we can’t exactly criticize about that.
[miriel] true
[Darkover] That rat. I don’t blame him for caving under torture, but I do blame him for not warning the others when he returned.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: I wonder if ulmo had some weird matchmaking plan. What did Ulmo know?
[Darkover] He wanted Idril for himself, and he didn’t care how many had to die.
[Demosthenes] maybe that’s reaching
[miriel] I agree: cracking during the torture, but not shouting: they found out!!! when he returned, now that is unforgiveable
[Puma] remember….though elves live long….they only have childrn for a short span of those yrs….so an elf can be 5000 yrs old.still only have 3 offspring
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe Ulmo knew there was a possibility if Tuor went to Gondolin, therefore he pushed, but ultimately it was Tuor and Idril’s choice.
[Puma] ulmo knew best the music
[miriel] indeed: K stratege: live long, get few offspring and invest a lot in those few
[Darkover] Which is one reason why, Puma–and I’m not trying to be risque or funny–I suspect Elves’ sex drive must be almost nonexistent, compared to mortals.
[Demosthenes] Ulmo arranges the pieces, but the pieces still have to do what they’re supposed to. We saw that Turgon didn’t.
[miriel] while men could get many, and therefore likely one of them would survive
[Puma] jrr explains all that in HOME.morgoths ring
[Darkover] I think Mimi_Sardina has it right
[Mimi_Sardinia] Being immortal, if they kept breeding, they’d have over-population issues.
* Puma nods
[miriel] possibly Mimi_Sardinia
[Darkover] Right
[brennil] they also had more important things than children
[miriel] and indeed, Mimi_Sardinia
[Puma] but jrr said longeval.not immortal
[Puma] the elder children were never fated to dominate the earth….but to bring it beauty
[Mimi_Sardinia] You sure Puma? Every reading I’ve made said immortal.
[miriel] well, if we are picking on words, but practically it was almost the same: without outside factors, they live as long as arda stands
[Puma] he corrected it in morgoths ring
[Mimi_Sardinia] What miriel said.
[miriel] they only die of sorrow, or wounds
[Puma] their fea lives as long as arda
[Puma] not necessarily their hroa
[Darkover] I agree with mimi. Elves can be killed, of course, or they can “fade” in a manner that apparently Men cannot, but in the normal course of events, they are Immortal, I think
[Puma] they actually do age
* miriel nods at Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ahh, well either way, they have lives thousands of years long. Cirdan is something like 11 thousand and still going.
[Puma] jrr does explain in writting most dont read
[Mimi_Sardinia] So even if they’re not *exactly* immortal, they couldn’t breed willy-nilly.
[Puma] cirdan is older than 11000 yrs
[miriel] indeed, the main point still stands: if they got kids like Men, arda would perish under them
[Darkover] Well, he wrote, rewrote, and contradicted himself a lot, Puma, so it is hard sometimes to know what canon is, and what it is not.
[Darkover] Right, what Miriel said.
[Puma] its not as difficult as some make it darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] So they have a short but happy period where they breed, then lay off and just raise what they’ve had.
[Puma] and do other tasks
[Mimi_Sardinia] And like someone said before, invest in the few they have.
[miriel] yup mimi
[Puma] most elves marry when they are about 50.though of course we know exceptions
[Mimi_Sardinia] pretty much most of the really historic ones delayed.
[Puma] no
[Mimi_Sardinia] “Strange fates” and all that
[Demosthenes] Idril and Tuor definitely have a strange fate.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] (I’m going to segue off that)
[Darkover] Not one that even people with foresight could easily have forseen
[Puma] and they were accepted back to valinor.even though there was a ban
[brennil] a ban on the mortal or on all, including elves?
[miriel] in some ways, they are a bit of a means to an end
[Demosthenes] That seems so weird to me.
[Demosthenes] and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I thought the ban was on all during the First Age
[Puma] they were the ones that get to live long together….while the other 2 jsut had mortal lives
[Darkover] Does that mean he didn’t die, I wonder?
[Mimi_Sardinia] A punishment for the Exodus
[miriel] ah indeed, that is an odd point dems
[Puma] mimi.for all it seems but idril and tuor
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “So it is said” (letter #153)
[Darkover] Besides, I thought the Valar didn’t have the power to withold the “gift to Men”
[miriel] but if they could have gone there, they could have done all the Eärendil-purpose years earlier
[Puma] darkover….the valar had a convo about it .i forget which book….and tuor was granted the life of the eldar….asa counterpoint to beren and luthien
[miriel] does this mean they might actually not have reached valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I think it was interesting to make one of the three couples choose “elf” instead of “man” like Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen.
[Demosthenes] A lot of first age stories have the quality of a folk tale
[miriel] there is no note of Eärendil meeting up with them, for example
[Demosthenes] And that bit more than most i think.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma – that counterpoint was always my reading of it.
[Puma] there is actually a valar convo
[Mimi_Sardinia] That maybe Tuor was a balance to Luthien.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: that’s something to consider
[Darkover] Well, since Idril was full Elf, and Tuor biologically at least was full Man, I don’t believe they would have had a choice, had not one been offered.
[Darkover] Luthien got a choice, because she moved mandos to pity. Arwen got a choice, because although she was mostly Elven, she had Man’s blood.
[miriel] that would make sense as to the Arwen-frodo/bilbo counterpoint “you will take my place” …
[Puma] and also.theycould not do earendils job…..since neither was peredhil
[Puma] actually.arwen could not grant that
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ultimately I think the only one who could really grant it would have been Eru, but He did have ways of communicating with the Valar.
[Darkover] Again, Earendil had the blood of both races
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, the Half-Elven were Earendil and Elwing’s children.
[Darkover] Maybe we’re meant to assume that is what happened, Mimi
[Demosthenes] Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.
[Puma] both easrendil and elwing were peredhil also
[Demosthenes] Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.
[Demosthenes] (food for the discussion)
[miriel] yes, well, I did not mean that they would get immortal life, I meant the taking her place on the ship
[Mimi_Sardinia] I did get told while discussing Bilbo and Frodo that they don’t necessarily get immortality, even though they went to Valinor.
[Puma] yes.only eru could alter fates
[Darkover] That is what I was thinking–it would have to be Eru’s decision, not the Valar’s
[Puma] both bilbo and frodo die
[Puma] jrr said so
[Demosthenes] Yeah, i find that “it is supposed” interesting
[Puma] but i suspect frodo would wait for sam
[brennil] wait…they go to Valinor though right?
[Darkover] I always believed neither Bilbo nor Frodo got immortality; they just got relief from their mortal illnesses, aches, and pains by living in Valinor
[samsbestfriend] yeah, i wouldn’t imagine they’d get immortal life
[miriel] me too Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Yeah, that’s what I got told.
[Tim_Bombadil] The light of Aman was said to hasten the end of life for those of Mortal life
[miriel] to give them immortality, that would make no sense
[samsbestfriend] possibly longer life though
[Darkover] When you think about it, it would be a curse, not a blessing, to be as old as Bilbo, and then be immortal from that time forward.
[miriel] indeed Darkover
[Demosthenes] that’s not a confirmation that the story is actually true. in fact i think it casts some doubt on it.
[Puma] its the deathless that live in aman .not the land itself which confers immortality
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe DID decide with Earendil and Ewing, Demosthenes.
[samsbestfriend] Demosthenes: which story?
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Earendil and Elwing were both half-elven, so they had the choice
[Puma] manwe acts as regent for eru
[brennil] do we have any idea if there is a “place” souls go after death?
[Demosthenes] that “in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.”
[Tim_Bombadil] Frankly…. I think the story of Tuor and Idril is my favorite… even though JRR spent so much more time on Beren and Luthien…. and left so much more to be told about Tuor’s time in Gondolin..
[Darkover] Well, I was thinking that you just told us that–we do pay attention
[samsbestfriend] ah
[miriel] it might be the safety clasue added by the writer just so that readers cannot complain
[ChristineGolden] “Manwe gave judgement, and he said: ‘In this matter the power of doom is given to me….”
[Darkover] Why is this one your favorite, Tim?
[Demosthenes] it doesn’t say by whom it was sung.
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor’s character is multifaceted…
[miriel] I think it was sung generally
[Puma] jrr always said there were 3 great stories….tcoh.beren and luthien….and fall of gondolin
[Darkover] Well, since as far as I know, the only One more powerful than Manwe is Illuvatar, that seems self-evident.
[miriel] but they could in fact be asleep on one of those islands on the way to valinor
[Puma] but he seems never to have spent the time on th last that he did on the other 2
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that he sees Turin on his way to Gondolin?
[Mimi_Sardinia] brennil – Elves reside in Mandos, a place definitely located in the World. Men however disappear out of the World, presumably they go to Eru.
[Demosthenes] It might be a tale of Numenor. Tuor was revered there iirc.
[Tim_Bombadil] The story lines that this intersection brings to bear are huge
[brennil] thanks Mimi
[Darkover] Quite so, Tom
[Darkover] This story is a prime example of how one thing can affect so many other things.
[ChristineGolden] As are the story lines that develop from it.
[Darkover] Sorry, “Tim”
[Puma] i dind it interesting also….tuor used an axe…not the usual swords of elvesd and men
[miriel] I find that a very nice linking to the other stories, that they see Turin, and do not know who he is
[Darkover] Maybe he was just better with an axe, Puma
[Puma] no way to know
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that Ulmo had planned Tuor’s fate… and drew him out of hiding with the spring…
[Puma] perhaps
[Puma] but ulmo knew enen b4 turgon founded gondolin
[Demosthenes] Axes make me think of Varangians.
[Tim_Bombadil] Can I ask? Wasn’t Tuor also a musician? Did he not carry a harp with him and sing in the echoing Mountains?
[Puma] he can sing.yes
[Tim_Bombadil] Where Melkor himself pasted his essence in wails of pain from Ungoliant?
[Darkover] He made a song for his son
[miriel] he certainly was fascinated by the sound of the ocean
[miriel] I think this is often linked to music in arda
[Puma] tuors house the house of the swan wing was one of 12 houses of gondolin
[mib_gcihc6] i thought it was hurin who wielded an axe?
[Puma] only in the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] In the Unfinished tails…. it is said that after passing through the gate of the noldor?
[Demosthenes] yes, i think that is right.
[Puma] also gelmir and arimas are a link between turin and tuor…as they had met both
[Tim_Bombadil] whoops./// gtg/// brb/// love this stuff… (That’s also why I like Tuor. He played music. The only other folks I know who JRR wrote in that played music were all smoke and no fire…
[Darkover] bye, Tim!
[Demosthenes] seeya tim!
[Puma] but the best gondolin musician were in the house of the harp
[samsbestfriend] you’d think he’d have more music players since he loves songs so much
[Puma] but most “magic’ is done by singing.there is a lot of singing
[Demosthenes] There is.
[Puma] aragorn sings over frodos wound for instance
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb!
[Demosthenes] And most of the characters can carry a verse or two.
[Puma] Xana!!!!
[Xanaseb] hi
[samsbestfriend] not to mention the creation of the world
[Demosthenes] Aragorn does it quite nicely. We see that repeatedly. Tuor has his harp. Not sure about Beren…
[Puma] luthien sang morgoth to sleep
[Xanaseb] this about musicality?
[Puma] hurin sang,played a harp
[ChristineGolden] I guess.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I always felt music ability was something cast as very common.
[Puma] yes
[miriel] oh, as a side note completely off current topic: had not realized that Maeglin was the son of Eöl
[mib_gcihc6] these stories are referred to as lays
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether Idril was musical.
[mib_gcihc6] lays being poems that are sung
[Darkover] Mention was made that Tuor played a harp and sang, and we were weighing in with how many people sang or played instruments, Xanaseb
[Puma] actually idril and tuor was never one of the lays
[Xanaseb] O.o miri, when did you realise?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Not exactly strange though, the Great music aside, music was a way of preserving and transmitting information and history.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Xanaseb] nice Darkover
[Xanaseb] cool point of discussion!
[Darkover] TY, Xanseb
[Demosthenes] Yes that’s right Mimi_Sardinia
[miriel] I thought their fates were so alike, in a way, and looked it up
[samsbestfriend] i heard idril was a good lay though
[Mimi_Sardinia] LOL
[Darkover] And I imagine most Elves could sing or play, given that they had extraordinarily long lives to get good at both.
[miriel] probably
[mib_gcihc6] maglor for instance
[Puma] among elves it was mostly the men who sang….though there are exceptions
[Darkover] I always got the impression that Maglor was the Mozart of the First Age
[Darkover] just a thought
[Puma] other than daeron
[Darkover] quite so, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maglor was also Valinor-born. Valinor residents were always cast as being better at stuff.
[Puma] i wish we had the noldolante
[Mimi_Sardinia] Guidance of the Valar, time to learn, all that.
[Darkover] Me too, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was born in Middle Earth, Mimi, not Valinor.
[Puma] yes.long residence in valinor.people dont realize finwe ruled the noldor longer than any of the hi kings
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though she had exceptional parentage
[Demosthenes] Luthien is unique.
[Demosthenes] heya mibmib
[Puma] luthien was 1/2 maia
[mib_gcihc6] i would have thought finarfin ruled the nolder longer
[mib_gcihc6] while in valinor
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien had personal guidance of a Maia mother, and a father who, though wasn’t a long-term resident, had visited Valinor.
[Puma] finarfin was not accounted hi king
[ChristineGolden] I was addressing Mimi’s point about the best elven artists were always better if they had lived in Valinor.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, what made them unique. Maglin’s treachery. Choices of the Peredhil, and how many in M-E played instruments and/or sang–in a nutshell.
[Puma] the calaquendi did have the greater power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Eol going to Valinor.
[Puma] and elwe though king of the moriquendi was calaquendi
[Puma] eol never did
[Mimi_Sardinia] He didn’t, unless you count Mandos.
[Xanaseb] good point, Eol was always in middle-earth of course.
[Darkover] Another thing about Tuor that I don’t believe any of us have mentioned; he was the one who led the remnants of Gondolin to the mouth of Sirion, and even though he wasn’t an Elf, no one seems to have questioned it.
[Puma] eol was more dwarf like than other elves
[Mimi_Sardinia] Wasn’t Eol a friend of the dwarves?
[ChristineGolden] Well, you just said that Luthien’s father visited Valinor, Mimi.
[mib_gcihc6] maybe after turgon accepted him
[Puma] yes mimi
[Demosthenes] As someone pointed out, it’s very frustratinvg that Tolkien stopped his revision of the fall of gondolin just as Tuor arrived /at/ Gondolin. Because I wonder what else we might have found out sabout Idril had he continued.
[mib_gcihc6] everyone in gondolin followed suit
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien’s father was Elwe, also known as Elu Thongol.
[Puma] the only full gondolin story is in lt2….and it is his most ancient tale
[Demosthenes] yeah it has hollow metal dragons n such. and still not a lot about idril.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elwe was one of the three ambassadors who first went to see what Valinor was like and come back to tell their people it was good.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and to my knowledge, he never visited Valinor, so I’d like your source, Mimi.
[Puma] when reading it.you can see the infuence of ww1 on jrr
[Mimi_Sardinia] Are you still equating Elwe with Eol?
[Demosthenes] Yeah, it’s obvious. Napalm. (or equivalent)
[Puma] christine….what was your question.i missed it
[ChristineGolden] [slaps self] Yes, I am. Sorry about that – I’m awful with names.
[Puma] ah
[Mimi_Sardinia] It might be easy when you compare Elu with Eol
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elu being Elwe’s Sindarin name
[Puma] eol did forge anglachel
[samsbestfriend] i wonder if the fall of gondloin has more power untold
[Puma] well…one thing we dont see in the sil….is all 12 hosues of gondolin
[Puma] houses
[miriel] now I lost the tread… *reads up*
[Puma] jsut golden flower and fountain
[Darkover] I’m back
[mib_gcihc6] house of mole for maeglin
[Darkover] More like house of rat, Mib, IMO
[ChristineGolden] If you look at the Silmarillion ‘love stories,’ you can see them all building to the voyage of Earendil.
[mib_gcihc6] lol
[mibmib] at least you had it in the first place miriel haha
[Puma] but there were survivors from all 12 houses but for the hammer of wrath who all perished
[miriel] indeed chris
[Puma] and there was a legolas in gondolin
[brennil] about Tuor leading elves, it did say he was very well respected among them
[miriel] in fact, all love stories are somehow connected to the silmarils, as well
[brennil] and a glorfindel
[Darkover] Yes, brennil, but being well respected is one thing, the leader of everyone is another
[samsbestfriend] miriel: even romeo and juliet?
[Xanaseb] all of them miri?
[Puma] apparently to the elves of gondolin.the husband of the heir….was also an heir
[Xanaseb] I suppose they are
[Darkover] Of course, a lot of those who might otherwise have been leaders were probably dead, such as poor, valiant Glorfindel
[Xanaseb] pretty interesting that
[miriel] LoL samsbestfriend
[brennil] in an emergency, I’m sure they would accept any leader. especially married to Idril
[Mimi_Sardinia] Beren and Luthien could be seen as a “Romeo and Juliet”
[Darkover] And of course, Idril the heir certainly gave him her support
[Puma] some leaders of other houses survived the fall of gondolin
[Mimi_Sardinia] especially from an elven angle, considering Luthien ended up dying permanently
[Darkover] I didn’t say no one did, Puma, just that a lot most likely were dead
[brennil] except, didn
[brennil] nt die by suicide because they were enflamed teenagers
[Mimi_Sardinia] True brennil, their relationship was far more drawn out and *sensible*
[Demosthenes] All of three great unions have a happy ending. I’d enver thought of that. Odd, when you consider how much of the first age is misery and painful death.
[samsbestfriend] crazy teenagers…
[Demosthenes] They’re little beacons amidst a great wotsit of darkness.
[brennil] why was Beren and Luthien considered such a happy story since they both die?
[Puma] the 3 unions had great purpose
[ChristineGolden] I’d say a bittersweet ending, Demosthenes, because in each romance, one party is sundered from their kin.
[ChristineGolden] Agree, Puma.
[miriel] they get together in the end, though
[miriel] and get a kid
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I suspect a lot of happy things transpired in the First Age that we didn’t hear about. Doesn’t Tolkien in “The Hobbit” say something about how when times are good and people are happy, there isn’t much to write about, but it is otherwise when bad things happen?
[Demosthenes] Nothing comes without cost? That’s part of living. Even for an elf, i guess.
[miriel] the kid being the main point
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes , brennil – because all three ended up with the same fate
[Xanaseb] and they live for a looong time
[Xanaseb] right?
[miriel] ultimately, for all living beings, getting offspring is the most important
[Xanaseb] in secret mostly
[ChristineGolden] But the “ever” doesn’t seem to last very long in their “happy ever afters,” miriel.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth. they are the up-points amidst a lot of sorrow though.
[Darkover] And the end of this chapter serves to remind us that the Oath of the Silmarils has been awakened again
[Darkover] No denying that, Demosthenes
[Puma] its one of jrrs main themes….modes of death or not
[Puma] the fate of each kindred
[samsbestfriend] thats a good point
[ChristineGolden] His Catholicism rearing its head again, Puma.
[Puma] also…..to jrr a good human….knew the time to die….and did it of free will
[Puma] nnot counting war of course
[Mimi_Sardinia] accepting death with dignity
[Puma] aragorn reinstituted that after a long hiatus
[Mimi_Sardinia] even war could be seen that way – dying for what you believe in
[Darkover] True, mimi
[Puma] agreed mimi
[miriel] true mimi
[miriel] and as an aswer to the short happily ever after: they are unlikely to happen, and just plain boring to write, though? jk jk
[ChristineGolden] And read.
[Demosthenes] Ah but where will they live?
[Demosthenes] Was that sam? i forget.
[miriel] lol dems
[miriel] yes, it was
[Puma] when you look at the whole saga.jrr always has a reciprocal….idril and tuor are the recipricol to beren and luthien
[ChristineGolden] But I think it’s more than just that… if you look at the book, the pace begins to really pick up with this tale to the fall of Morgoth. I think any “happy ever afters” would have disrupted that.
[Puma] well yes.fall of gondolin was in fa 509 i believe
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah i hadn’t considere dthat until Mimi_Sardinia mentioned that tuor balances luthien
[Darkover] I wonder sometimes if it is Men who get the “happily ever after” in the end, while the Elves, who may seem to have the better deal, just get “contented ever after.”
[Puma] war of wrath began in 547 i think
[miriel] indeed: the unlikely to happen was pointing to that
[Tim_Bombadil] The “Gift of Men” Darkover…
[Puma] thats the recipricol darkover the fates of the 2 kindreds
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – that what I always felt JRR was trying to put across.
[Elentari] what are we talking about?
[Darkover] Right, Tim, because after all, no one really knows what happens after that.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, and what led from that, Elentari
[Demosthenes] You can’t think that’s not deliberate.
[Tim_Bombadil] Not all of the Valar came to the Earth..
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Puma] no
[Xanaseb] I think they did
[miriel] I agree Darkover
[Puma] not all of the ainu came to earth
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Xanaseb] not all of the ainur though
[Mimi_Sardinia] No Tim_Bombadil , not all the *Ainur* came into the World
[Xanaseb] yup, indeed Puma.
[Mimi_Sardinia] *Valar* is the name of the upper level Ainur who did
[Puma] but the valar were bound then to arda.till the end
[Elentari] oh right Darkover thanks
[samsbestfriend] isnt is weird disucssing the higher mysterieds of this world when we dont even understand them of our own?
[Puma] jrr was a window to that sbf
[brennil] maybe they help us understand them in our own world
[Mimi_Sardinia] maybe because the higher mysteries of fiction are easier to understand than RL ones.
[Demosthenes] Maybe both.
[Mimi_Sardinia] And what brennil said.
[brennil] and they’re more fun
[Darkover] Not really, samsbestfriend. As Brennil just observed, they can help us understand the mysteries of our own.
[ChristineGolden] It’s a book.
[Darkover] But a darned good book, Chris
[brennil] so what?
[Puma] a good book
[samsbestfriend] can they? really?
[brennil] really. If I weren’t being lazy I
[brennil] would quote C.S. Lewis here
[Puma] they dont help us solve the mystery….but perhaps to view it
[ChristineGolden] Of course, Puma. I meant that we’re not discussing an alternative universe, but a piece of lit (in response to samsbestfriend).
[Mimi_Sardinia] well if you acknowledge the fact that a lot of the moral codes in the Silm are heavily based on JRR’s -very christian- beliefs then the moral codes and higher mysteries of the Silm show us what JRR thought about life.
[Puma] jrr wanted us to discuss the issue….was his purpose…so we are doing good
[Darkover] Besides, enjoying Tolkien, or any other fiction, is like when people complain that it is “just a story.” As long as we have a good story to appreciate, isn’t that enough? Why does it have to be “more?”
[Puma] all good stories…live because they are applicable
[Demosthenes] Both answers are legitimate. You can have “more” and you can have “just the story”. Either is legtimate.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes. But I don’t believe the story is insignificant
[Puma] in 100 yrs people will still be discussing jrr
[samsbestfriend] yeah, but tokien was just a man
[brennil] a genius of a man
[Mimi_Sardinia] He was just a man who was a good writer.
[Darkover] Again with the “just,” sam. What is your point?
[Puma] but he left some great thoughts for us to discuss
[ChristineGolden] Hmmm, I’d say that a good book involves more than just a great plot, Darkover. Are we talking about the same thing?
[samsbestfriend] its not like he has any more insight into life and death than any one else
[brennil] or did he?
[Puma] he did not
[Puma] but he put the issue there for us to have discourse about
[Mimi_Sardinia] samsbestfriend maybe he didn’t, but what he did have he was good at conveying in his writing.
[Demosthenes] And different is always food for thought.
[samsbestfriend] Puma: i will agree wiht taht much
[miriel] I agree with samsbestfriend, tolkien was great, but not allknowing
[lunarising] I think he did – I’d think anyone who’s seen war and death would have a better insight on those issues
[Darkover] Actually, Chris, I think there is a lot more to Tolkien’s writings than plot or story, but my point is, when a piece of fiction has a good plot/story, that is all it is required to have. If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage.
[Demosthenes] If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage. [-- yeah, this.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – I like what you say.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Mimi
[Puma] jrrs saga lives…thru us.who have discourse
[Xanaseb] true about him not having more insight than others, but *having* insight, and *putting* it to paper in such a way are different things IMO
[ChristineGolden] Ahh, okay, Darkover. I would say that a good plot/story is created by the other elements in the book.
[Xanaseb] conveying something
[Darkover] Miriel, no one said Tolkien was all-knowing, but he knew a darn sight more than most people, IMO
[Xanaseb] is important, and tough thing in fiction really
[Puma] and some would say much of jrrs saga is quite plotless
[Darkover] And he could write a lot better than most, too
[Demosthenes] Do we have any final points about our topic btw? Not that this isn’t cool, but we’ve drifted.
[Darkover] Some criticize anything they can’t do themselves, Puma
[ChristineGolden] I have a question! (don’t I always?)
[Puma] ask away
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma I don’t think it was plotless so much as it had so many plots that sometimes you lose track of them all.
[Puma] some parts were plotless
[Darkover] what’s your question, Chris?
[Demosthenes] ask away ChristineGolden!
[ChristineGolden] Well, we’re doing the “three great romances,” right? What I wonder is why isn’t Earendil/Elwing included in there?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes In the end we really don’t know if Tuor was granted immortality. It is only said by those who remain in Middle-earth.
[Puma] because they were both peredhil
[miriel] because three sounds better than four jk jk
[Puma] so not eladar and edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] But the idea that he was makes a good story.
[Darkover] Maybe because while they did have to make an important choice in the end, it was not a choice directly connected to their romance.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil was half-elven/half-man, plus they had to make the same choice as the others.
[Puma] elwing was 1/2 elven
[Puma] as was earendil
[Mimi_Sardinia] Plus I still think the idea of Tuor’s fate being a balance of Luthien’s makes it seem rounded.
[Darkover] They were both kind of quick to abandon their kids, IMO. Just a pet peeve of mine.
[Demosthenes] Are you asking if we could chat about Earendil and Elwing? Ansnwer: sure. As for why it’s not great … that is an interesting one as the pair arguably accomplish as much or more than idril and tuor.
[Puma] but mithrellas/imrazor is not considered eldar/edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] I’d like that chat.
[ChristineGolden] mine, too, Darkover. “here’s my kid, gotta go~ ~ ~”
[Demosthenes] “great”
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Xanaseb] lolol.
[ChristineGolden] No, although we could, I just wondered why they weren’t included in what’s commonly called ‘the three great romances.”
[Darkover] I think we have probably exhausted the Idril-Tuor discussion
[Puma] agreed darkover
[Demosthenes] Okay, we may do Earlendil and Elwing after Aragorn and Arwen then.
[Puma] the 3 great romances were eldar/edain.otheer grat romances were not
[Darkover] This discussion has been good, as always
[ChristineGolden] Thanks, Puma, I try.
[brennil] these non-LotR discussions don’t attract as many people
[Puma] ty Demz.great job
[Puma] and ty all here for a great discussion
[Demosthenes] Back to Towers next week though.
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: two towers. treebeard.’
Session Close: Sun Apr 14 09:39:32 2013

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

The enigma of Idril and Tuor

Set against Beren and Luthien, Idril and Tuor offer an interesting contrast. They don’t make the same vein of heroic strike against Morgoth. Tuor — due to the intransigence of Turgon — is in fact unable to save Gondolin from its doom.

Yet their renown must be more than “merely” their famous offspring? Is it that Ulmo chooses Tuor as his personal messenger? Is it Idril’s foresight in digging the secret escape? Is it their care of Gondolin’s ragtag of survivors on the long journey to the mouths of the Sirion?

And what of their ultimate fate? Tolkien himself wrote in Letter #153:

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

What are we to make of this exception — the reverse of Luthien’s divestment of her immortality? Perhaps it is, after all, just a story?

Join us in the Hall of Fire on Saturday April 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time) as we discuss the enigma of Idril and Tuor!

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