Join TheOneRing.net as we share ‘The Hobbit’ with schools to encourage literacy.

TheOneRing.net is raising money to send copies of J.R.R. Tolkien’s classic, ‘The Hobbit,’ to schools . In a time when education funding is on the decline, books like ‘The Hobbit’ are simply not purchased for children on a regular basis. As a result, those students are not introduced to the wonderful world of J.R.R. Tolkien, a world we have all learned to love and appreciate.

Today, we are honored to use our extensive international reach to announce the S.H.I.R.E. Project, a real world initiative to help improve the reading skills of children worldwide. The S.H.I.R.E. Project stands for Sharing the Hobbit to Improve REading.

Through helping Schools and Teachers get copies of The Hobbit, and other works of J.R.R. Tolkien, we can hope to expand the world of Tolkien to new readers and improve the reading skills of the world’s youth at the same time.

The first Teacher we want to help is Derek Wright who teaches at Alpharetta High School in Fulton County Georgia. Derek wants to help spread the love of Tolkien to his students, love of fantasy, and help improve the reading of his students. He needs 120 copies of The Hobbit to do this. So we’re calling on all of you to help us help Derek in his goals as a first year teacher.

Please help donate via this PayPal button to get Derek and his students those books. We are looking to raise $1000 to make this purchase. Please consider a donation of $10 or more! Thank you in advance and look for an update from us when we reach our goal!

Tom Bombadil – Master and Mystery

By Tedoras

            Mention the name of Tom Bombadil around Tolkien fans and you are likely to spark a debate: a debate which, in Tolkien fandom, remains one of the most controversial and longest-argued of them all. This is perhaps because even the most fundamental questions surrounding Tom Bombadil are hard to answer; certainly, he is the most enigmatic character in The Lord of the Rings. Because of his uncanny nature, Tom Bombadil remains unique among all of Tolkien’s characters: as readers, we have the same understanding of him today as readers did when they first discovered him—that is to say, while scholarly works on Aragorn and Frodo abound, we are no closer to uncovering the true Tom Bombadil today than we were almost sixty years ago. In writing this article, I hope to accomplish a few goals: first, to present a thorough character study of Tom Bombadil (i.e. to lay out what we know); second, to discuss the main or popular theories in the debate (i.e. to lay out what we think); and third, to draw a conclusion (or, rather, an inference) as to the true nature of Tom Bombadil. Whether you are a veteran of this debate or are just now being exposed to it, I hope you will join me on a journey of herculean proportions to answer the most testing of all questions: who (or what) is Tom Bombadil?

As Saruman coldly says in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey: “Let us examine what we know.” Well, in this instance, that is very apt advice, indeed. Tom Bombadil, as many of you already know, stumbles upon the hobbits in the Old Forest in September of the Third Age 3018; he proceeds to rescue them from Old Man Willow, and then brings them along to his home deep in the Forest where he lives with his (also rather enigmatic) wife Goldberry. Tom is marked throughout these episodes with a light and cheery tone: from his colorful attire to his seemingly continual singing (and his ring a dong dillo’s). Yet Tom’s light-hearted nature—while ostensibly unwarranted, considering where he lives—is, in fact, well-attributed: he is a very, very old and wise man (or rather, being that looks like a man). We will, in time, return to look more closely at the importance and uniqueness of Tom’s personality, but for now, let us focus on his age.

Readers quickly become aware that Tom is a special character, even from our very first meeting with him. One of the reasons for this is his fantastic age. And while it may not surprise us that Tom is indeed old, just how old may. Frodo, who appears just as confused about Tom as we are as readers, asks him repeatedly, “Who are you?” (Tolkien 129). Tom replies that he is “eldest,” and then he proceeds to explain:

“Tom was here before the river and the trees…He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving…When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already here, before the seas were bent…before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” (129)

Since Tom’s own information is arguably the most accurate about him, let us use the above quotation to determine just how old he is. First, we know Tom has lived in Arda since “before the river and the trees,” a reference to the Spring of Arda. The Spring of Arda is the period from 1900 to 3450 (in Valian Years, not solar years, mind you—though we will return to this soon) of the Years of the Lamps, in which the world was populated with living things. Secondly, he has been in Middle-earth since year 1 of the First Age, when Men awoke; additionally, he saw the hobbits migrating west around T.A. 1300. Tom also saw the Elves pass west: this refers to the Sundering of the Elves and, more precisely, to the First and Second Sunderings in the Years of the Trees 1105 and 1115, respectively. The “seas were bent” in F.A. 587 following the War of Wrath. Most interestingly, though, is that Tom was in Arda before Morgoth (and, in turn, all the Valar) came there during the First War, from year 1 to about 1499 of the Years of the Lamps. Thus, we know that Tom Bombadil was one of the first—if not the very first—inhabitants of Arda following the Music of the Ainur and the creation of Eä.

Now, knowing that Tom has existed (it is, as yet, impossible to say that he was born or created, or even that he entered Arda) since year 1 of the Years of the Lamps, we can calculate his exact age. We must note, however, the sort of ripple that exists in time in Tolkien’s works: each year in the Years of the Lamps and Years of the Trees is a Valian year (about 9.582 solar years). The First Age, with the rising of the Sun, marks the use of solar years in counting. So, we can use the range from 1 Years of the Lamps to T.A. 3018 (when Tom meets the hobbits) to calculate his age. We simply multiply 3500 (the number of Valian years in the Years of the Lamps) by 9.582 (3500 x 9.582 = 33,537), repeat this process for the Years of the Trees (~1500 x 9.582 = 14,373), and add the total number of solar years from all the Ages up until T.A. 3018 (590 + 3,441 + 3018 = 7049). So, by T.A. 3018 Tom Bombadil is already some 54,959 (solar) years old!

Beyond his age, Tom is characterized by a few other unique traits. First is his reaction (or lack thereof) to the Ring. “Show me the Ring!” he says to Frodo, who, surprisingly, hands it right over without any qualms (much in contrast to the very protective, hesitant Frodo we see later on). Tom proceeds to “put it to his eye and laugh[s]” (130). Yes, the reaction of Tom Bombadil to the One Ring, the most powerful and dangerous object in the world, is laughter—not worry nor despair, and certainly not fear. Then, when Tom puts the Ring on his finger, there is “no sign of [him] disappearing” (130). And how does Tom react to this instance? You’ve got it right: he laughs and, to further show how little he cares for the Ring, he does what appears to be a little sleight of hand with it before returning it to Frodo “with a smile” (130).

Not only is Tom unaffected by the Ring himself, but he notices its effects on others. When Frodo slips on the Ring (to check that is, in fact the Ring after lending it to Tom), Tom immediately notices the invisible hobbit sneaking off:

“‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards [Frodo] with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. ‘Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring!” (131)

Clearly, Tom is unaffected, personally or otherwise, by the Ring. And he is the only character in the whole of the novel to have this ostensible immunity to the Ring. It is certainly a powerful being that holds this trait.

Yet what do we typically associate with power and wisdom? Perhaps visions of age-worn, rather tough and callous individuals spring to mind—yet this is not the case with Tom Bombadil. As I noted before, Tom has a rather affable, light-hearted personality. He is certainly not a man of affectation: no matter the circumstance nor the people involved, Tom is always in a joyous mood, singing and bouncing around (or at least disposed to do so). Tom is so happy-go-lucky because he has no concept of fear. Take the following examples: (1) he rescues the hobbits from the clutches of Old Man Willow as if he were reprimanding a child, not challenging a great evil; (2) he lives in the Old Forest, a place ripe with fearful beasts and about which tales of fright abound; (3) he saves the hobbits from a barrow-wight, coming with song and a spring in his step to one of the most dreadful and dangerous mishaps in the story. Take this quotation from “Fog on the Barrow-Downs,” for example:

“’You won’t find your clothes again,’ said Tom, bounding down from the mound, and laughing as he danced round them in the sunlight. One would have thought that nothing dangerous or dreadful had happened; and indeed the horror faded out of their hearts as they looked at him, and saw the merry glint in his eyes.” (140)

It is plain to note: where others would fear, Tom Bombadil does not. It is not even that Tom is simply not afraid, nor that he has overcome his fear; rather, he has no concept, no idea whatsoever, of fear. He is entirely composed of the good-natured, light-hearted fibers that render him capable of laughing in the very face of the One Ring.

And this lack of fear (especially with regards to the Ring) is unique. Gandalf certainly shows a sense of fear on many occasions: from his fear of entering Moria, to his fear of the Ring and the Enemy. Galadriel and Elrond both fear the Ring, for in either using it or keeping it hidden they know it will bring about their ruin. Even the Enemy is not free from the grasp of fear: when he learns of Aragorn’s return and the possibility of united opposition to him, Sauron begins to feel afraid. While the fear that all of these characters experience may differ in many ways, fear it is nonetheless. And it is exactly this sense of fear that Tom Bombadil does not possess.

There remains now just one last point regarding Tom’s character that I believe is worth noting: his repeated association with the earth. Frodo, the night the hobbits spend in Tom Bombadil’s house, has a vivid dream of

“a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.” (132)

This dream—a clear reference to Valinor—is interrupted: Frodo awakens to see “Tom whistling like a tree-full of birds” and he notes “the sun was already slanting down the hill…Outside everything was green and pale gold” (132). Here, we note Tom’s stark association with the earth or, perhaps more prominently, his dissociation from Valinor. Tom interrupts this dream (in essence, the thought that he may be associated with Valinor), and he immediately brings Frodo back to the earth: to the birds, trees, and green of the living, mortal earth. The notion that Tom is more an earthly, temporal being is quite important: it is vindicated by what we have learned of his age, and it will greatly help us in deciding what Tom is and isn’t.

Knowing what we do about Tom Bombadil now, we can move on to the second half of this task: discovering who Tom truly is. We will be looking at the main and other popular theories of this debate, and one by one, we will see which, if any of the pre-proposed categories, Tom fits. After thoroughly examining all options, then—and only then—will we be able to make a final conclusion. (And, if we are lucky, such a conclusion may not be that we will simply never know the answer.)

Is Tom…

A Man, Elf, Hobbit, Dwarf, etc?

Tom is decidedly not a member of any of the races or kindreds of Middle-earth. We can most certainly eliminate him from all such groups (especially from Men and Elves, which would be the two most likely groups) by noting his age (i.e. he was around before them), his physical characteristics (size, beard, etc.), and how the Ring does not affect him.

A Vala?

It is certainly difficult to claim that Tom is one of the great Powers of the World for many reasons. First, all fourteen of the Valar are accounted for, and Tom is not named among them. Second, as we noted before, Tom was living in Arda before the Valar (led by Morgoth) entered the world. Third, Tom refers to himself as “Eldest,” a title to which all the Valar are beholding, not just he (if indeed he were a Vala). Lastly, we know that Tom calls Morgoth “the Dark Lord” (as quoted above). It is hard to imagine any of the Valar referring to their greatest rival, the embodiment of Evil, by this name: certainly, the Valar reserved such reverence in the title “Lord” for Manwe alone. Additionally, fans over at The Encyclopedia of Arda have noted that characterize we would expect to note that Tom is a Vala (such as Gandalf, one of the Maiar), do not.

A Maiar?

This theory is, in some ways, a rather attractive one. We know, first of all, that not all of the Maiar were named by Tolkien—this, of course, allows for hypothesizing that Tom is indeed one of them. However, some good counterpoints contest this argument. First, Tom is unaffected by the Ring. We know for certain that other Maiar, from Gandalf to Sauron, were affected by the power and draw of the One Ring. Additionally, remember the total lack of a sense of fear we discussed before? Well, a sense of fear regarding the Ring (or its fate, for the Enemy) pervades the Maiar involved with this struggle. Yet such is not the case with Tom. Also, it is interesting to note how these Maiar are all allied, with one side or another, while Tom remains independent from the conflict.

The One?

Some have even pushed the idea that Tom is The One, Eru Ilúvatar. Yet for all the auspicious remarks made about Tom (how he is “eldest,” etc.), this theory does not hold water either. At the Council of Elrond, we learn many of the reasons why this theory is false. Gandalf states that “he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others,” a trait that we would assume the mightiest being of them all, the creator himself, would possess (259). Glorfindel also comments on the idea of giving Tom the Ring to keep safe: “in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First” (259). The notion that Sauron and his folk could defeat Eru (indeed, the notion that Eru is even capable of being killed, defeated, or otherwise harmed) seems rather ridiculous. Furthermore, evidence from Tolkien himself puts a final end to this theory: in Letter 181, Tolkien explicitly states that there is no embodiment of Eru, who exists apart from the World entirely.

A Spirit?

In many of his earlier writings on what would become The Silmarillion (as collected by Christopher Tolkien in The Book of Lost Tales), Tolkien had a concept of Middle-earth as much more similar to his idea of Faerie. Originally, many spirits and sprites (of all kinds and names) entered the World just as the Ainur did—and this notion was not entirely lost in the final published form of The Silmarillion. It is an attractive theory (for many reasons) to say that Tom is a sort of spirit.

The best route to take within this theory is to propose that Tom is a “nature spirit” (perhaps even a “Father Nature,” if you like). First, it makes sense that Tom would come from the Music of the Ainur—this is in accord with his inhabiting Arda from the very beginning. Second, the notion that spirits exist in nature is evident in Middle-earth: from Ents to Old Man Willow to the great prevalence of personification, nature is much more “alive” in Middle-earth than we take it to be. As noted before, Tom is starkly associated with nature and the earth. The way he lives so harmoniously with bird and beast (and how he seems to command nature in his dealings with Old Man Willow) certainly supports this theory. Additionally, we know that Tom is not concerned with the Ring (Gandalf notes that “he would not have come” to the Council of Elrond, and we noted before how remains “unallied” despite the times). He, actually, shows a total disconnect from the affairs of all other human-like beings; he is, rather, concerned only with the natural world. Tom’s neutrality greatly parallels the neutrality that we prescribe to nature. Since we, as fans, do accept the existence and the role of Ents such as Treebeard, I believe making the jump from a natural “spirit of nature” to a man embodying the “spirit of nature” is not so difficult nor controversial. Yet still, we must ask ourselves why, then, does the Ring not affect Tom, when it can certainly affect other aspects of the natural order?

An Incarnation of the Music of Ainur?

This theory is rather unique, and more recently developed than the others. Basically, we know that of all the above theories, only the notion that Tom is a “nature spirit” is relatively sound; branching from that theory, a fan known only as “Ranger from the North” developed a theory in which he posits Tom is “the incarnated spirit of the Music of the Ainur.” The “Ranger” notes two flaws with the basic “nature spirit” argument: first, Tom is not most closely associated with nature (he, personally, shows this discord by fighting against Old Man Willow and the darkness of the Forest); second, Tom is, however, associated with song and music throughout (the way in which he fights nature, for example, is with song). So, it is agreed upon by many (and I am of the same opinion) that Tom is, in fact, a spirit (an incarnate/embodiment) of sorts (i.e. that he has some relation to the Music). The question now becomes whether or not you believe he is more closely related to nature or to the Music itself.

“Ranger from the North” makes a stellar case for the latter. First, he works with the evidence from the “nature spirit” theory, showing how entirely probable the existence of other, extraneous spirits/beings is in Tolkien’s cosmology. Second, he shows how Arda itself is not the incarnation of the Music, distinguishing Middle-earth from the means by which it was created. Then, the “Ranger” makes a very clever comparison between Ungoliant and Bombadil: he notes how, since Ungoliant exists in many ways as an incarnation of the discord of the Music, she parallels Tom; these two are, he says, antitheses, and should be considered in the same way. Just as Ungoliant embodies the evil and darkness with which she was made, so too does Tom embody the light and happiness of the source of his creation. The “Ranger,” additionally, notes a detail of paramount importance: Tom’s name is not all it appears. Certainly, we hear “Tom” and think of our odd uncle or younger brother—yet such is not the case, says the “Ranger.” He notes the story of the great gong Tombo in the Unfinished Tales—coincidence that “t-o-m-b-o” are the first six letters of Tom Bombadil? Is it also coincidental that we find yet another association between Tom and music here? I think not.

The “Ranger from the North” has written extensively on his theory, and I seek not to describe all of his arguments. If you would like a much more detailed and thorough examination of the Music of the Ainur theory, I highly recommend reading what the “Ranger” himself has written here: http://www.whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/

So, we have reached the end of our journey through the “Bombadil Problem.” We have examined the arguments, waded through confusion, sorted out messes, and procured evidence. It is, in my opinion, certain that we must continue to think of Tom as unique, that we must give credit to the enigma that he (intentionally) is. The true “Master” here is perhaps the Professor himself: the truly contradictory nature of this enigma—his simplicity in character and simultaneous complexity in literature—was well crafted. The mystery of Tom reaches far back into the deeps of Tolkien’s mythology, and roots may be found stretching back to the Professor’s first tales of Faerie. While the “riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma” that we call Tom Bombadil will continue to challenge us, so too will it excite us. For through continued debate and discussion, we return time and again to the tales and stories we hold so dear, pouring of pages for hours, scouring word-by-word for some secret hint, trying to piece the puzzle back together. We know that the mystery about Tom was intentionally crafted, and that the Professor may have taken the truth about this character and his own motives in designing him to the grave, yet our drive to uncover more about this most enigmatic of beings is not diminished—why? Perhaps it is precisely because of Tom’s nature that we are fascinated by him: in a Middle-earth so divided by light and dark, good and evil (i.e. clear answers to the “who” and “what”), Tom exists as an uncommitted, uncategorized blank slate. He is the one being so open to interpretation, so predisposed to our imagination, so designed for our wondering. It is not surprising that we love Tom so much, that we pursue this debate so tirelessly, because we each craft our very own Tom Bombadil in our minds—and it is the Professor who intentionally left Tom open to such interpretation. Perhaps we can accept that Tom is simply a mystery—though, no doubt, we will continue discussing and searching for the “truth.”

All references to the text from:

The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien, single-volume edition, Houghton Mifflin (HarperCollins), 2001 (1994 edition of the text)

More information about Tom Bombadil, as well as links to other arguments, can be found below:

1)      http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature

2)      http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html

The literary legacy that members of the Tolkien Estate want to protect

By:  Brian Tither

Introduction

I think that the reason why some members of the Tolkien Estate have sued Saul Zaentz and its subsidiaries over JRR Tolkien’s literary legacy is because of their overriding concern for protecting that legacy above all else. In particular I think that this is the intention of Christopher and Priscilla Tolkien, the surviving children of Tolkien. And as a former student of Tolkien’s academic speciality in Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic in New Zealand I personally support this intention after being frustrated at The Hobbit production being only valued for the other Hollywood productions and tourist dollars that it may bring into New Zealand. I am also frustrated at the way a lot of the people involved in the production seem to only value it for its enhancement of their individual film projects.

The literary legacy of JRR Tolkien

Tolkien was the Professor of Anglo Saxon at Oxford University in the years that Christopher and Priscilla and their deceased brothers John and Michael were children and Tolkien would come home and tell them stories based on the literature that he was teaching at Oxford. This came from Old Icelandic texts like Voluspa, which describes the rise and fall of Midgard, the Old Icelandic Middle-earth, where Tolkien got his names for his Dwarves, and The Saga of the Volsungs, where Tolkien got his ideas for Bilbo’s encounters with Gollum and Smaug from the God Loki taking off Andvari the Dwarf a ring which causes problems for its bearers and Sigurd’s slaying of Fafnir the dragon, which are supplemented by similar things in the Old English poem Beowulf. This was also supplemented by Tolkien getting his ideas for Beorn, which translates as ‘warrior’ from Old English and as ‘bear’ from Old Icelandic, and Bilbo Baggins, which translates as ‘dweller in a dwelling in a bag’ from Middle English and ‘dweller with a sword from ones in a bag’ from Old English, from characters such as Bodvar Bjarki, which translates as ‘the bear warrior’, and Hott Hjalti, which translates as ‘the small sword hilt’, from The Saga of King Hrolf Kraki, where Hott’s parents are described as living in what appears to be a house built in a hole in the ground.

Given that the name Hott and the Old English word holbytla for ‘hole-builder’ conflate together as hobbit, which means ‘small hole-builder’, and given the oral tradition that developed between Tolkien and his children, it is easy to see how Tolkien took it a step further with his children and got them to help him with creating a story from him one day writing down the words: ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’. And from there the story developed as an oral tradition between them until Tolkien decided to write it down in a manuscript and this was published as The Hobbit some years later after he happened to show it to someone who recommended that he got it published. Then he wrote The Lord of the Rings, in which he referred to the mythology, later published as The Silmarillion, that he had been creating since before his children were born, while incorporating a character that he and his children devised from a doll that they owned, which they named Tom Bombadil.

The legacy of the Tolkien Estate

But the story of his children’s involvement did not stop there because Tolkien consulted Christopher on virtually every turn of The Lord of the Rings as he wrote it, while Christopher went on to become a university lecturer in Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic as well. Then when Tolkien passed away he had Christopher appointed as his literary executor and charged him to complete The Silmarillion, which Christopher did. And he also appointed him with John, Michael and Priscilla to take care of other estate matters as well.

This included taking care of matters regarding his selling off the film rights to the books to Saul Zaentz, which Tolkien did to cover the high inheritance taxes that the books accrued upon his death, all which grew out of his experiences with being swamped by the royalty taxes that he had to pay due to the sale of the books from the popularity that he did not anticipate for them. And this included the estate ensuring that Saul Zaentz and its subsidiaries did not step out of parameters that were set by Tolkien to protect the literary legacy of his works, which by implication stretched into his academic speciality to the original texts where he got his ideas from that have no copyright on them. And this experience grew out of seeing what Walt Disney did to the works of the Grimm’s Brothers the latter who Tolkien had a particular affinity for because the Grimm’s brothers also created philological principles, which Tolkien applied in his academia and works. Hence Tolkien did not want to see tangible things like this in his works being turned into intangible things like theme parks, which by implication extends into things like video games and gambling outlets such as slot machines.

And there is a need to protect this literary legacy if this literature is not to become something only valued by the money that people might make out of it at the expense of accessing that literature to many. And one of the things that I have been perturbed about as a student of Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic is experiencing both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit productions consulting linguistic and Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic experts for the purpose of developing the movies without considering how such expertise comes from the collective intellectual property of teachers and students in these specialities, even though such intellectual property was strangely fused with Hollywood action movie conventions in the films. And possibly this is why The Hobbit movies have so far not had such experts promoting them like The Lord of the Rings movies had, which probably made it expedient for the first trilogy of movies to be nominated for Oscars in categories like Best Director and Best Film, which they won on the third movie, while the second trilogy so far has not received any such nominations.

The valuation of the legacy in New Zealand

Meanwhile, as I said above, The Hobbit movies have been only valued as a means to bring more Hollywood productions and tourist dollars into New Zealand and it has been seen by people involved in the production as only a means to develop their individual film projects. The latter was made clear to me in October 2010 when allegedly there was industrial action going on which was allegedly having Warner Brothers considering moving the production elsewhere. The impression I got then from such individuals was that if the production went offshore it would severely jeopardise their projects, which was enhanced to me by someone who spoke at The Hobbit rally, which occurred a few days before Warner Brothers decided to keep the production in New Zealand. This person referred to how The Lord of the Rings production created a community of filmmakers, which has left me the impression that this community has been dependent on both that and The Hobbit production for its existence.

Consequently I have decided that I will only support the film projects of individuals involved in these productions if they demonstrate to me sufficient appreciation for the intellectual property that was drawn on for these productions. And for me the benchmark that has been set for that is that shown to me by a prominent New Zealand Maori writer, some of whose works have been turned into films, who supported the teaching of Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at the New Zealand university that he used to work for. He also left me with the impression that the term ‘Middle-earth’ should not be used as a means for cultural groups to promote their culture to gain tourist dollars without acknowledging the culture that Middle-earth comes from as Tolkien acknowledged and intended it, who said Middle-earth was a use of the Middle English middel-erde, which derived from the Old English Middangeard and is thus related to the Old Icelandic Midgard.

Meanwhile, universities have had to cut their Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic courses even when they have had a reasonable number of students doing them due to a reallocation of university funding from a government who has used The Hobbit production so far for political gain. And I think that this is abysmal given the free promotion that The Lord of the Rings movies got from the New Zealand experts in these specialities through public lectures that they delivered like other experts in the specialities in other places in the world on the release of each movie, which if it had of been picked up on by The Hobbit production might have meant that the media surrounding the movies would have been less focussed on the apparent lack of material in the first Hobbit movie and the technology used, which not all the movie viewers were happy with.

The actual legacy in New Zealand

Also, for the New Zealand world premiere of the first Hobbit movie such experts could have highlighted how it was part of New Zealand’s culture and heritage that our education system produced Kenneth Sisam, a graduate of both Auckland and Oxford Universities, who was Tolkien’s New Zealand born tutor when Tolkien first started learning these specialities. Sisam introduced texts to Tolkien that Tolkien said that he had previously never heard of before, which included the Old English poem Crist, which had words in it translated as: ‘Hail Earendil, brightest of angels/ above the middle-earth sent unto men’. This led to the first draft of the poem of Earendil the mariner that Bilbo sings in Rivendell the night before the Council of Elrond in The Lord of the Rings, which, in turn, Tolkien wrote after his first year of having Sisam as his first tutor, which was the beginning point of his legendarium.

In addition, these New Zealand specialists could have also highlighted how Tolkien alluded in his valedictory address, when retiring from being Professor of English language and literature, to the contribution that New Zealanders (and Australians) made to the Oxford School of English and the close contest which he had with Sisam for Professor of Anglo Saxon. The latter was also referred to in an interview just before the first Lord of the Rings movie’s release with an English born former lecturer in the speciality at a New Zealand university who was at Oxford when Tolkien was Professor there at the time the book was published who said that most undergraduates thought that Sisam should have been Professor.

Conclusion

This lecturer also told my classmates and me that the undergraduates at Oxford formed the basis for the Hobbits in Tolkien’s legendarium, them being derived from the undergraduates living in study groups with a tutor and a servant called a scout who looked after their personal needs assigned to each group. That is, Frodo Baggins and his cousins were based on the undergraduates, Bilbo Baggins on the tutor and Samwise Gamgee on the scout. And hence, whereas The Hobbit was something derived by Tolkien from his telling of stories to his children based on his academia, The Lord of the Rings was derived from his actual teaching of that academia. And I experienced an evolved version of that at university from a former PhD graduate of Oxford who got some of her Bilbos to teach Sams like me our letters like Bilbo does for Sam in the book. And according to one of those Bilbos my classmates and I are the envy of many who learn these letters around the world for having had this lecturer as a teacher, which is a sure foot in the door for any of her Frodos into universities such as Oxford and Cambridge. And it is such legacies that Christopher and Priscilla Tolkien are concerned with protecting knowing full well that without it their father’s legendarium would not even exist.

Brian lives in Wellington New Zealand on the main drag to both Victoria University where he was he was taught Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at undergraduate level by an Oxford University PhD graduate and the Embassy Theatre where the red carpet rolled out for all New Zealand premieres for The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit movies. He goes under the pen name of Brian Boru, which refers to his family descent from a famous Gaelic warrior-king of a millenium ago called Brian Boroimhe who is part of a Gaelic literary canon that he also wants to study.

This weekend’s Roundup brings you The Reading Room as it hosted the very first TORn Amateur Symposium.  Many Message Board Members have found it difficult to attend national symposiums and conferences that include studies on J.R.R. Tolkien and his works.  As a result, TORn has conducted its own Symposium.  Members have contributed personal essays on philosophic opinions, scientific theories, or analytic approaches to understanding or highlighting some facet of Tolkien’s writings and world.  Please enjoy the following topics offered in this first TORn Amateur Symposium.

Day One – The Physics of Middle-earth

Day Two – Fauna of Middle-earth

Day Three – Geography and Literature, Art & Language

Day Four – The Hobbit Topics

Day Five – The Lord of the Rings Topics

Day Six – The Silmarillion Topics

Want Hobbit Movie News?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have nearly 9,900 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Tolkien’s earliest mythology of Middle-earth, 1915–1916

by John Garth

TOLKIEN’S Middle-earth did not spring fully-formed into what we see in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Its complex development is laid out in Christopher Tolkien’s History of Middle-earth, going back to The Book of Lost Tales begun in late 1916 in hospital after the Battle of the Somme.

But there is an even earlier phase of Tolkien’s work on Middle-earth: from 1915–16, glimpsed fragmentarily in poems and in a lexicon of Qenya, his first invented Elvish language.

Here, in a passage from Tolkien and the Great War, I tentatively piece together the way the mythology stood in about March 1916, shortly before embarkation for the Somme. For those interested, brief notes on how I did so may be found at the end. Some details (and spellings or diacritics) are quite familiar, many are not. Some details (and spellings or diacritics) are quite familiar, many are not. Beings and places which survive in the later legendarium appear here under earlier names: for example, Eru (God) is Enu, which Tolkien relates to a Qenya verb meaning ‘devise’. Some names eventually found an entirely different use: decades later, ‘Sangahyando’ was given to a rebel royal of Gondor in The Lord of the Rings. Some concepts, such as the Valar and Eldamar, were to undergo many further developments.

[Read More]

The Illuminated Silmarillion

He produced the book as part of his schooling and says, “…but the main problem was my strict limitation in time and money. Looking back I cannot understand how it worked! For my exam it would have been enough to do calligraphy for only one or two chapters. But I didn´t want to have a book with maybe twenty printed and 380 empty pages! That would not have been worthy for a Tolkien-work and I had better done a short story or so. But I thought: „This is your exam and maybe the last time that you can do what you want as an illustrator!“ So I did it, and couldn´t have done it with that fire, wouldn´t it have been a Tolkien-work. And although this was extremely hard, the fire did not cease.”

The Tolkien Library has an interview with excellent images. You can read the whole story right here.

This week on Main, noWizardme is having a casting call for Beren and Luthien, with you as the director, who would you cast?

On LOTR Movie Board, Ziggy Stardust is talking about The Mouth of Sauron, how he was portrayed in ROTK and how it differed from their vision of him.  What did you think of The Mouth of Sauron, did you love his depiction or did you see him completely differently?

Meanwhile on Hobbit Movie Board, The Mitch King is telling us about their number one problem with AUJ and wants to know what yours is.

And on Off Topic this week, Salmacis81 is asking us about the worst tasting food we’ve ever tried.

We’ll share more topics next week. We hope you’ll come and join in the conversations!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s message boards have over 9,800 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Right now, the place to be is the Reading Room.  Normally viewed as a thoughtful, scholarly part of the TORn Message Boards, it has pulled ahead in posts and participation… an occurrence that has triggered a friendly and spontaneous party.  Join the thready fun here.

One of the reasons for the spike in activity and interest is the ongoing Silmarillion Discussion as “Roomies” study the lives and love of Beren and Luthien.  Stroll through the Reading Room and discover The Silmarillion.

Another reason for the action is the launch of discussion on The History of the Hobbit.  Join this fascinating look at how it all started here.

Want Hobbit movie news?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit headlines of the week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in the conversation!  Don’t forget,   have over 9,800 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

The House That Bilbo Built: Tolkien’s Literary Legacy
by Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway

Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien have a distinctly creative way of expressing what they like; and perhaps that is the very quality that makes them the greatest fandom to propagate a literary phenomenon. It has been said there’s Life within the words of a great book. The ultimate expression of that can be seen in the inspired individual who builds his Life from the words. Those are the types of fans who carry their love so strongly forward, into bookstores and cineplexes alike, that everyone gets swept up. Their friends and children inevitably receive the books from them when the time comes; each parent, with a knowing smile, handing the key to Middle-earth to their young ones. I sometimes wonder what Professor Tolkien would think of ‘The House That Bilbo Built:’ a wave of cultural influence and entertainment begotten by the high romantic world he invented, along with so many original languages and alphabets, such a long time ago.

Talk about longevity! THE HOBBIT just celebrated its 75th anniversary. First published in 1937, well before the first volume of THE LORD OF THE RINGS came out (1954), the whimsical adventure of the diminutive Bilbo Baggins stands as a giant among 20th century fiction. Certainly few other books sustain the same revolving fandom over decades. I don’t believe in the least that TWILIGHT or THE HUNGER GAMES will have this measure of adoration in 75 years (but POTTER damn well might). Don’t underestimate how beloved and emulated Tolkien’s books are to a surprisingly different quilt of nations, regions, and times. The world’s appetite for Tolkien’s uniquely rich fantasy storytelling caused the actual “Fantasy” section to appear in bookstores; a niche market broadened tremendously, a statement was made to the publishing industry, and there was certainly no going back. Elves, Hobbits, Wizards, Goblins and Dragons were here to stay.

So much of my own creative life has sprung from my love of Tolkien and willingly have I swam the subculture that embraces his work. Ringer fans are counted among the best of friends and talents I’ve had the pleasure to meet. They never cease to surprise me in their endless originality. Interviewing them for our documentary, RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS got me really up-close; and I take joy in exploring this never-ceasing question: why are these readers so deeply connected to Bilbo’s and Frodo’s story? Why does this phenomenon keep expressing itself in the desire for cosplay, spontaneous music, academic symposiums, boisterous conventions, movie adaptations, and profuse indulgence in second breakfasts? I keep asking through all my interviews and meetings and moots; yet the answer is mercurial.

And what humble, delicate beginnings for a behemoth like THE LORD OF THE RINGS! Let’s take a look at Tolkien’s remarkable publishing history, and thence pop cultural history, because it almost didn’t happen, for many reasons.

Tolkien started off developing the languages, and the foundational cosmological basis for his “secondary world,” while he was still a youngling in college, earning a degree in English Language & Literature. Then World War I arrived with death and disruption. Tolkien survived unwounded but his friends did not – he was medically discharged himself with trench fever. While on sick-leave in 1917 his wife Edith assisted him with hand-copying one of his earliest tales: “The Fall of Gondolin,” a fictional wandering that would ultimately become part of THE SILMARILLION (in fact, much of the content of THE SIL was created in Tolkien’s earlier years).

He was to become an Oxford philologist, dedicating his scholarly life to the study of languages. What better way to explore them than inventing your own! There’s a term for it: glossopoeia. As explained by TORn staff contributor Ostadan: “The word glossopoeia is a coinage derived from Greek, meaning ‘the making of tongues.’ As Tolkien explains, the creation of languages offers both intellectual and aesthetic satisfaction, but at the time he wrote, there were few such creations known to the public.”

By 1917 he was on his way to inventing Quenya and Sindarin – Elvish languages yet to be uttered by Orlando Bloom. Tolkien toyed with bits of poetry and his own slant on languages that he fancied (Finnish, Old Norse, Welsh), an effort which, oh-so-gradually over forty years, became an entire universe. He was also intent on creating a new mythology for England, which he felt lacked its own panorama of deities and “epicness” as Norway did. So THE HOBBIT was begun somewhere around 1930-31 (Tolkien recalls scribbling on a blank sheet of paper while marking examination papers, ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’).

In 1936 Sir Stanley Unwin of Allen & Unwin Publishers got his 10-year-old son Rayner on board as the first ‘early reviewer,’ believing a child was the best judge of children’s fiction. Rayner loved it and wrote a glowing report, describing it as ‘very exciting.’ So THE HOBBIT launched in September 1937, to considerable acclaim and boffo sales.

Sir Stanley quickly asked for a sequel; and the Professor sent them THE SILMARILLION, a woefully different ball of wax, with oddments of archaic manuscripts, a dense mine of data about Middle-earth’s pre-history, genealogies and somewhat biblical-style tracts that didn’t suit anyone’s taste at the publisher’s office. They wanted something with furry feet and gentle appeal.

Saying politely, “No thanks, but give us more material akin to THE HOBBIT,” they received in 1937 the first chapter Tolkien could manage – “A long expected party,” which reveled in much more hobbity sensibilities. The publishers loved what they read. But in so small an act can the hand of destiny be changed. The writing of the damn thing spiraled entirely out of control.

Tolkien felt endless pressure but wrote to Sir Stanley: “The work has escaped from my control and I have produced a monster.” This new epic was to take nearly 13 years, some say 17, during which time he held a chair at Oxford; and then, quick as you can say schnell, World War II arrived. THE LORD OF THE RINGS was finally finished in 1949. Tolkien was nigh 60 years old.

Over those years Tolkien had become quite miffed at Allen & Unwin for saying “no” to THE SILMARILLION. In 1949 he got entangled in a lengthy flirtation with Collins Publishers, hoping a new relationship would yield a home for his greatest effort.

He eventually went back to Allen & Unwin under terms of a new agreement: they would indeed publish THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though there was a critical paper shortage during wartime. Sir Stanley did not take on THE SILMARILLION, either, another stroke against it (after Tolkien died it finally saw print in 1977, thanks to his son Christopher’s tireless efforts).

The decision to split LOTR into three volumes left the Professor rather unhappy. But he settled on the main title as THE LORD OF THE  RINGS, with sub-titles for three distinct volumes (containing two “Books” each)– THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING. He would much rather it had been THE WAR OF THE RING, which he sensed would reveal much less of the actual plot, but that didn’t stick.

It was the High Summer of 1954 – Bill Haley and His Comets would rock around the clock, just as Frodo Baggins made the scene in Volume 1 of LOTR; then Volumes 2 and 3 would arrive later in 1955.

The first wave of fandom simply ate up copies regardless of its mixed reviews. Tolkien’s good friend (and fellow Inkling) C.S. Lewis came to the books’ spirited defense, declaring famously: “Here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron. Here is a book which will break your heart.” W.H. Auden also lauded: “No fiction I have read in the last five years has given me more joy.”

Steady sales and continued profits were nice, but when the American counterculture embraced THE LORD OF THE RINGS some ten years later it really skyrocketed. Over a few months time in 1966, THE LORD OF THE RINGS became a campus craze and books were seen everywhere through dormitory halls – even the University of Southern California Irvine Campus had a housing section renamed a lá Middle-earth. Causing admiration and titters alike (depending on your level of fandom) 1700 students to this day lounge in halls with such names as “Rivendell” or “Quenya.” The first and strongest wave of Western pop culture, the hippie movement, was staking its claim on how Tolkien was perceived and enjoyed by a broadly literate youth generation. Then there was the scandal of the “bootleg paperback version” of LOTR that were completely unauthorized (the guilty party being ACE Paperbacks) but that was resolved with the support of students/fans protesting booksellers who carried ACE and thus a new Ballentine edition was soon printed with Tolkien’s note on the back cover — much of this fuss we cover in greater detail in our documentary.

Then the Rock & Rollers picked up the books. An entire section of the RINGERS film covers that dynamic period where Tolkien unwittingly affected musicians of the time. Marc Bolan (of T-Rex) and David Bowie hit the underground “Middle-earth Club” on the seedy side of London. Connect the musical dots to Led Zeppelin; whose albums are rife with LOTR references and characters due to Robert Plant’s fertile affection for Tolkien’s books. I had a revealing chat with director Cameron Crowe who confessed: “Oh you’ve got to talk with my wife Nancy (Wilson of Heart), because she just loves it!” Then there was Geddy Lee (Rush), and nowadays we have Justin Timberlake – hardcore Ringers one and all.

Tolkien was uncomfortable with the explosion of attention. He was a tweedy Oxford don, after all, and wanted nothing to do with the drug-addled young people tramping across his rose garden and peeping into his windows while he worked. He once called them “my deplorable cultus.” After his death in 1973, and the posthumous publication of THE SILMARILLION, the wave of pop surrounding Bilbo and Frodo became a unique beast of another color.

The holiday animation company Rankin/Bass (yes, the folks who did stop-motion Rudolph and Frosty) brought us THE HOBBIT in less than 90 minutes of Japanese-produced 2D glory in 1977. Then Ralph Bakshi rotoscoped his drop-acid take on the first half of LOTR, but he never got to make his finale. Yet the fantasy explosion of the Eighties was off to a roaring start. Tolkien fueled all this, without dispute, and up sprang authors like David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Stephen R. Donaldson, and Marion Zimmer Bradley. Someone with a polyhedral die and several pages of Middle-earthy maps invented a pen & paper game that you might vaguely recall. And you can bet your Muggle face that J.K. Rowling was devouring the Professor’s books at the time, storing it all away for future inspiration.

Enter onto the 1990′s digital stage TheOneRing.net – an online fan community affectionately known as TORn – the largest, longest-running, all-volunteer web portal unique to a single fandom. As contributors to TORn, we spend our energy reporting news, presenting special panels coast-to-coast at massive Comic-Cons and Dragon*Cons, moderating forums, chat rooms, and Facebook timelines with an endless flow of fans who collide as much as confer. We produced three gobsmacking Oscar Parties just for Ringers, one event yearly for each of Peter Jackson’s sprawling films, which were attended by the trophy-bearing cast and crew. On the year of THE RETURN OF THE KING’s 11-Oscar sweep, the Kiwi filmmakers were especially eager to greet the grassroots fan audience that so avidly showed them three years of love (and repeat ticket sales). We also produced a hellzapoppin’ Oscar event for the HOBBIT: AUJ in 2013, providing a unique atmosphere for aficionados to celebrate a shared affection for Tolkien with creators from behind the camera.

Now the newest excursion into Tolkien’s legendarium is upon us with the late 2012 release of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY. Not to mention the attendant merchandising and collectibles now flooding the market. Jackson and his team of film artisans surmounted terrific odds to return all the familiar players to New Zealand. The anticipation has left most fans breathless; while many purists may bemoan the stretching of an episodic 280-page children’s story into 3 extra long films. The level of involvement among fans hasn’t lessened, instead reaching a new zenith by way of shared electronic media.

On our weekly live webcast aptly named “TORn Tuesday,” actors and artists ranging from Sean Astin to Peter S. Beagle join me for a merry discussion of how THE LORD OF THE RINGS has impacted their lives. They definitively illuminate how Tolkien remains so relevant. These artists have lived and breathed the magic of Middle-earth in myriad ways. Nearly 60 years later Tolkien’s masterworks have reached countless millions; and there’s a vibrant community online that supports many great events and causes, all sharing the same literary joy. I’ve never witnessed another phenomenon like it. A shared passion for the Professor’s 1200 page opus is the very liferoot of it all.

As I said, Ringer fans really do know what they like.

Much too hasty,

‘Quickbeam’

Clifford Broadway

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Clifford Broadway, longtime contributor and webhost for TheOneRing.net, is co-author of the bestseller “The People’s Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien” (2003) and co-writer/producer of the award-winning RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS (Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, 2005).

Follow us on Twitter:

TheOneRing.net @theoneringnet

Cliff Scott Broadway @Quickbeam2000

This thing went nuts with 200,000 views in 7 hours! With a busy Facebook timeline like ours at TheOneRing.net, it is always cool to see what stands out as a favorite popular post.  Today’s image of Aragorn having a fun soliloquy about the day we STOP loving The Lord of the Rings became our most widely-seen and mega shared post of the year!

So why are fans so quickly drawn to a declarative statement like: “Other Fandoms may ebb and flow, but Tolkien fans are committed to these stories for life?” Quickbeam has pondered that very thing: and here is his article from this week, above

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The action this week is happening in the Reading Room.  There are two very thoughtful investigations of female characters in J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Check here as Poster wildespace leads the discussion on their presence in The Lord of the Rings, with more in Maciliel’s contribution to The Silmarillion Discussion (Chapter 16).  Join in the fun here.

Also in the Reading Room, the TORn Amateur Symposium is underway!  Inspired by the Tolkien-themed conferences and symposiums that many of our Discussion Board Members cannot attend due to cost or location, we’re going to create our own that everyone can attend right here!  Check out the program and join us with your own submissions.

Want Hobbit Movie News?  Each week, TORn poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect The Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,740 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

A couple of weekends ago, we discussed the character of Isildur in Hall of Fire. Was he, we asked, the true shaper of the Third Age? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 8 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be returning to the Hobbit movies for the first time in a while and examining the new details about Tauriel, and what they might mean for the films.

Session Start: Sun May 26 07:15:38 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Isildur, shaper of the third-age? | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] So this about Isildur fella.
[Puma] Isildur.a way more complex character than many see
[dombillyfan] lotr
[Demosthenes] err, aobut this*
[Demosthenes] puma: why do you say that?
[Puma] well..Isildur preserved the kingship of the numenoreans…and did end up making an error with the ring….but i have reasons not to totally blame him for that
[Demosthenes] Is the former more to the credit of Elendil?
[Puma] but i think the tree is the best place to start as that is young isildur
[Puma] no…….its not
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Darkover] What are we discussing this week?
[Demosthenes] Elendil seems to have driven the exiles. Or maybe even /Amandil/.
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree with that, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover, Isildur’s the topic.
[Puma] Tar-palantir prohesized that when the white tree was no more.the line of kings would end
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Nice to see you as always.
[Ringlordsander] I don’t think Isildur made an error with the Ring. I don’t think you can call it an error while everyone would do the same in that position.
[Puma] Isildur saved the white tree.by doing so.symbolically the kingship passed to the line of amandil
[Darkover] Thank you, you too!
[stargategeek] hi can I have that link to HOF again. was using different irc
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, so is the white tree thing more important than the seven ships thing? Without the ships you have no white tree, and Elendil organised the boats….
[Demosthenes] trees don’t usually float very well.
[sunshower] you are in HOF, stargategeek
[Darkover] And maybe also it was a symbol that life could go on
[Puma] yes….it was joint
[Puma] but ships with no tree……means no kingship
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, there would have been no Gondor, etc.
[Puma] and there were 9 ships
[miriel] The tree is more important IMO
[Puma] look at the importance aragorn placed on the tree
[Darkover] Sounds like both tree and ships were very important
[Puma] no tree.no king
[miriel] they could have used any boat to get from Numenor, but not any tree
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so too.
[Rivornel] And Gandalf (importance thing)
[stargategeek] whats tonights topic?
[Puma] isildur rescued a fruit of the white tree at great risk
[Lasak] I agree with miriel there
[miriel] isildur
[stargategeek] hi sunshower
[Darkover] Isildur, Stargategeek
[Demosthenes] Isildur seems to have gone to rescue the tree from Armenelos of his own accord?
[stargategeek] hi darkover
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, Isildur wouldn’t have gotten very far with his fruit.
[Puma] without the tree…..the exiled numenoreans could have come to middle earth…….but there could be no rightful king
[Darkover] would there really not have been a king, without the symbolism of the tree?
[Puma] Elendil had nothing to do with the rescue of the fruit
[Ringlordsander] I agree with ChristineGolden here. I don’t think Isildur would’ve gotten far without his father…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i dunno. what makes a king?
[miriel] I think it is interesting that we have isildur doing it, only to later fail with the ring
[Lasak] The kings always find a reason to make them above the people
[Puma] there might have been a ruler with no tree.but no king
[Teowang] u seriously are stargategreek?
[Darkover] I understand the importance of symbolism to M-E societies, but there is symbol, and there is substance
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, the tree was merely one symbol of the kingship.
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, in practical terms, being able to fight off enemies and lop their heads off is pretty important
[Puma] even aragorn knew.no tree.no true king
[miriel] do you think tolkien might have wanted to show that someone could both be wise/good/whatever and yet fail when tested by a supreme power?
[Darkover] More so than trees, although Tolkien might not agree
[Darkover] That is a possibility, Miriel
[Puma] also.with out the tree.the line of kings end…does that mean if they arrived in middle earth…they would not have survived
[Demosthenes] So in what ways does Isildur preserving the white tree (twice, not once!) shape the third age?
[Darkover] Although to be fair to Isildur, did he truly understand the nature of the One Ring when he took it?
[Demosthenes] Also, is it that act that earns the hatred of Sauron?
[Puma] lets hold off on the ring a bit please
[ChristineGolden] I think he did, as far as man could understand the evil of Sauron, Darkover
[miriel] well, we have a king that has something to base his claim of power on… would not have happened otherwise?
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, as Puma observed, symbolism is important. So is tradition. And the White Tree was a thing of beauty
[Demosthenes] All good points.
[Goldberry] Crazy that isildur could walk in there any take the fruit without anyone stopping him
[Darkover] Preserving it was undoubtedly a good action on Isildur’s part, and may have made him seem more heroic
[Demosthenes] He was injured in the process, iirc?
[Puma] when the tree sprouted in the house of amandil…isildur who had been gravely wounded.awoke for the 1st time….there is symbolism in that
[ChristineGolden] The King of Gondor had many symbols. Wasn’t there one found in Orthanc after the fall of Saruman?
[Darkover] He didn’t exactly “walk in,” as I recall, Goldberry. I think he sneaked in
[miriel] the tree is also a way of showing that the line is the right one, remember it withers when the kings disappear
[Demosthenes] Did that signify that Isildur was the true king, not elendil?
[Goldberry] Pretty good at sneaking
[Darkover] That too, Miriel. Symbolism strikes again
[Puma] and isildur was wounded gravely when taking the fruit
[Puma] isildur also had great forsight
[Goldberry] He nearly died didn’t he?
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: yes i believe so.
[Puma] it did fail him once though
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah. minas ithil. stupid place to put a city.
[Goldberry] Then he recovered when the tree started growing
[Demosthenes]
[miriel] I think he was a very devoted biologist (jk jk)
[Darkover] Most of the heroes in Tolkien’s writings had great foresight. I always wondered if that is meant to be a mystical thing, or if the heroes were just people who were smarter and thus could make predictions better than most.
[Puma] as i said earlier.when the young tree sprouted.isildur awakened
[Puma] probably both Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: better intuition?
[Darkover] Maybe a sign that Isildur–or his line–were connected with the Tree?
[miriel] very hard to say, Darkover
[Darkover] That’s just it, Demosthenes–intuition, or intelligence? As Miriel says, hard to say. Probably some of both.
[Puma] but isildur….had the men of the white mtns take an oath at the stone of erech…he had the forsight to know the war with sauron would go on a long time…of course he brought that about in part himself
[Demosthenes] Probably both. Intuition, empathy, insight … all these things make people better leaders. And Isildur seems to have been albe to lead people — he essentially sets up Arnor AND Gondor as realms.
[Demosthenes] And everyone went along with his ideas.
[Demosthenes] Isildur was also instrumental in setting up the Arnor/Gondor system, which greatly shaped the government of the Third Age.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] So he must have been quite a leader. A pity that at the end, he was remembered mostly for failing to destroy the One Ring, and getting killed by orcs int he process.
[miriel] I never really understood the benefits of s
[Goldberry] It is a pity
[Puma] well….i have reasons that the taking of the ring….was a bit more complex than people attribute to it
[miriel] *splitting up the kingdom
[Darkover] Wasn’t Isildur the eldest son? or were he and Anarion twins, and Isildur the elder? Didn’t Tolkien dither over that issue for a time?
[Lasak] that truly is a pity
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say that politically he established the foundations of a golden age. a bit like augustus.
[Demosthenes] with Rome.
[Goldberry] Easier to rule a smaller place than a bigger
[thefoolishtook] im reading what all you guys say, and i say parallels with gollum/smeagol. the whole they should of renounced the ring but they didnt know better. ultimately their fate was to help middle earth etc?
[Puma] the elves had kept the rings a secret….the numenoreans knew nothing of the rings…numenor was perhaps destryed because they did not know fo the rings.so the elves had some fault in the fall of numenor
[Darkover] yes, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] see* parallels
[Puma] so do you blame isildur for not trusting the elves advice with the ring
[miriel] yes. He did have the potential to destroy it
[Puma] isildur was in exile for lack of knowledge about the ring
[miriel] he had done many great deeds in the past
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, I’m not sure I agree that Isildur and Gollum were exactly analogous. Isildur cut it directly from the Dark Lord’s hand, after the latter just killed his father, and Gollum murdered his BF and kinsman. Not quite the same
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Diocletian. Diocletian started the process of splitting the Roman empire into east and west.
[Goldberry] Maybe isildur did know better he just wasn’t able to lett it go
[Puma] isildur did know his mistake and repented to elendur
[Puma] so isildur in that respect can be compared to boromir
[Rivornel] Well, I think the ring also played a big role. Cause when Frodo went to toss it into Mt. Doom he couldn’t do it either
[thefoolishtook] yeah darkover, i get you in that they arent like for like, but still, their whole relationship with the ring being love hate rings a bell, just an observation anyways!
[Darkover] Well, Puma, elves usually give good advice, when they give it at all. But did Isildur understand at the time what the nature of the Ring was? That in order to use it, one had to become like Sauron? Did he understand the way It was tempting him? I’m not sure about any of that.
[miriel] good point Rivornel
[Darkover] Agreed, thefoolishtook, I think the Ring did that to almost everyone who came into contact with it.
[Puma] go not to the elvesd for advice cause they say both no and yes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that would depend on how much information Celebrimbor passed on to his compatriots.
[Darkover] True, Demosthenes
[Goldberry] Puma:yes isildur reminds me of Boromir in some ways
[Demosthenes] And then how much Gil-galad passed on to … well … the Numenoreans of the 2nd age for starters
[miriel] which leads to another question: should the elves have *forced* him to throw it into mount doom?
[Demosthenes] And then later to Elendil.
[Darkover] But if we believe Elrond’s account of events, Puma, for a change, his advice was pretty explicit–destroy It
[Rivornel] the ring in general is evil, and i think it’ll turn anybody who has good intentions to bad and selfish intentions
[Puma] the numenoreans knew nothing of the ring.till gil-galad told elendil
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was a very proud man, Darkover, and would have believed he could control it.
[miriel] possible, ChristineGolden
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i could see that too.
[thefoolishtook] like denethor thought boromir could
[Darkover] No, Miriel, I think the Elves would have had to murder Isildur to take the Ring from him, and clearly they couldn’t persuade him to do so, and nothing good would have come from that.
[Puma] there is also some evidence isildur was an overbearing older brother to anarion
[Darkover] Chris, I agree. I suspect even if Isildur had known all the facts, he would have kept the Ring. Just not sure how much guilt was his, if he didn’t have all the facts.
[Demosthenes] No-one would have tried to sneak the white tree out of armenelos without having a surfeit of self-confidence.
[miriel] so in the end, as soon as he laid hands on the ring, it really could not end any other way than in disaster
[Anameleth] I kinda think the elves should have forced him to destroy the ring
[Darkover] Really, Puma? I disagree. Isildur and Anarion seem to have gotten along astonishingly well, to the point that they were co-rulers.
[Lasak] But how should they force him?
[Darkover] I heartily agree, Demosthenes
[Puma] he felt at the time as any1 would.the elves lied to us about this ring….fall of numenor is in part the elves fault….and in his pride thought ring was better off with a numenorean
[thefoolishtook] elrond could of literally pushed him into mt doom?
[Anameleth] If they knew its power and what it could do, why didn’t they get rid of it?
[miriel] indeed, dems
[ChristineGolden] He may not have known the depths of its evil, Darkover, but he knew its nature.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think Meneldil was happy to see the back of Isildur when he left. Possibly because he felt he was being shaded.
[Puma] yes.co rulers in separate cities
[Lasak] i see that, but should they kill isildur?
[Darkover] More like disaster postponed, Miriel. Isildur got murdered shortly after, which was bad for him, but the Ring was lost for ages.
[Demosthenes] I’m sure that is in UT.
[miriel] true, Darkover
[Puma] and why was meneldil so happy he left gondor and would long be gone
[Darkover] Yeah, Demosthenes, that was strongly implied, I agree
[Demosthenes] Another indication of big egos?
[Darkover] Lasak, no, they should not have killed Isildur. It would have been murder, regardless of their motives.
[thefoolishtook] lesser of two evils Darkover?
[Puma] taking the ring by murder…..that results in a gollum
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Darkover] Yes, thefoolishtook
[miriel] we also rarely find people in charge who do not have some kind of want to be leaders
[Demosthenes] I am kinda surprised there was not more squabbling over the ring after sauron was brought down. But maybe everyone was too exhausted by war.
[Demosthenes] A kind of pyrric victory.
[Darkover] Or maybe it disappeared too fast
[Demosthenes] maybe?
[Puma] no one was there…..but gil-galad.elendil.isildur elrond and cirdan
[Demosthenes] “i would have this as weregild…” etc etc
[Rivornel] Isildor died either way though, they could have prevented the whole war of the ring if they had killed him..?
[Lasak] we know saruman looked after it
[Puma] so they did not know of the ring
[miriel] do you think the ring had part in this, Demosthenes?
[Puma] and the only person isildur told was elendur
[ChristineGolden] After Sauron was brought down, there was still a lot to do. The Orcs, for example, didn’t just wave and say, “see ya around” and walk off the battlefield.
[thefoolishtook] concerning fighting over the ring after the defeat of sauron, do you think its because the elves knew its true nature, and wouldnt of wanted it anyway?
[Darkover] Well, Isildur’s death resulted in It being lost. And his death seemed like a tragedy, but wasn’t the worst thing that could have happened. Rather like the death of Boromir centuries later.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Puma] exactly darkover
[Darkover] Maybe, thefoolishtook. I’m pretty sure that was Elrond’s attitude.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: that’s another possibility. and maybe they felt, mistakenly, that it wouldn;t be that bad?
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] and only reconsidered later.
[samsbestfriend] ChristineGolden: they kinda did in LOTR
[miriel] it would have suited it to not have a strong person yielding it, not to mention many of them being aware of it. It slipped through the net of greedy hands and into the river, laying dormant while sauron regained strenght — would not have happened if a lot of people were wanting to have it
[ChristineGolden] I think Elrond’s attitude was “let sleeping dogs lie.”
[Rivornel] But Isildur’s death delayed the whole process because the ring was lost. But then I guess it allowed the “good” guys to have a chance and not be overwhelmed
[thefoolishtook] if the elves considered it lost for all of time, they might of seen the ring as destroyed anyway. lost/destroyed = same thing?
[Demosthenes] hullo Isildursbane19. we’re just talking about you.
[Anameleth] Did Elrond realize the danger of the ring though?
[ChristineGolden] Only in the movies, samsbestfriend
[Puma] back to the tree 1 second….who 1st planted a fruit up above minas tirith.anotther act of forsight….most likely isildur.since he is most connected to the tree
[Darkover] Yeah, samsbestfriend, but that was because the movie had to end. In the book-verse, King Elessar and his men had to spend years killing off various bands of orcs, even after the Ring War
[ChristineGolden] But it does contradict Aragorn’s later words about the new owner of the ring.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, what does?
[Demosthenes] puma: returning to your point about whether the Numenoreans had received Full Disclosure. Well, Isildur did seem to take it as a memorial … not as a “wooo this will make me all-powerful!” thing.
[ChristineGolden] That Sauron would expect there to be confusion and a power struggle within the allies over who should wield the ring.
[miriel] I think it suited the ring best to lay dormant out of reach for the good guys
[Darkover] Right. “weregild”
[Puma] yes Demz
[samsbestfriend] i nwas meaning at the end of the 3rd age. sorry for the confusion
[Demosthenes] Maybe the elves didn’t tell everything. Maybe Gil-galad and co /didn’t know themselves/.
[Anameleth] True
[Puma] i think they did know
[Rivornel] Gotta go, see ya’ll soon
[Darkover] Sauron probably couldn’t conceive of anything else. That was the way his mind worked. He assumed no one would willingly pass up power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe that knowledge died with Celebrimbor?
[Goldberry] Bye
[miriel] cya Rivornel
[ChristineGolden] Ok, who do we know was aware that Isildur had the ring?
[samsbestfriend] I’d imagine orcs would always be an irritant, but no longer a threat
[miriel] elrond
[Goldberry] His sons?
[Puma] Celebrimbor would ahve passed on enough infor when he passed on the 3
[Darkover] did the Elves tell everything? Probably not. Did they know themselves? Hard to tell. Did Elves, by this time, like to get involved in the events of M-E? Not very often, which is something else to bear in mind.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Elrond, Cirdan, Elendur and Meneldil.
[Goldberry] Isildurs son
[Demosthenes] maybe Isildur’s other sons too.
[Puma] it seems not
[Puma] just elendur
[ChristineGolden] and Sauron.
[Demosthenes] It’s ambiguous anyhow.
[Darkover] Elrond. Probably his twins. Isildur, of course, and his oldest son, at least. Maybe the others, too, except for the youngest.
[Puma] and most likely not meneldil.which is why he left a written record
[Demosthenes] lol and Sauron the I’m doing a Cthulhu.
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[miriel] Darkover: they just fought in the last alliance. If that is not “being involved” then what is?
[Demosthenes] but the written record would have gone to Meneldil. It was there to instruct the Kings of Gondor.
[Puma] the rings were never a thing of common knowledge
[Darkover] Okay, maybe that was too harsh of me, Miriel. I was thinking more of their behavior during the Ring War, than the Last Alliance, but you have a point.
[Demosthenes] so he would have known sooner or later.
[Puma] yes Demz…….but as gandalf had said.seems to be rearely if ever read
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Darkover has a point.
[ChristineGolden] After the fall of Sauron, didn’t the elves return to their own kingdoms and cares?
[Demosthenes] Yeah that’s true. The elves were very hands-off.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[miriel] there must be so much material to read, who would find that one little piece of paper about a heirloom that was lost?
[Demosthenes] “not our fault!”
[Puma] hands off only after sauron thrown down
[Darkover] It took even Gandalf a while, and he was looking for that reference
[ChristineGolden] So, while Isildur’s roaming around ME with the ring, the elves are back in Rivendell, etc.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was 3K years later though.
[Darkover] What’s 3K among Elves, Demosthenes?
[Puma] lol
[miriel] that is true, there is a grain (quite a big one) of truth in what Darkover said
[Demosthenes] about from now till lunchtime?
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes. You folks are witty tonight.
[ChristineGolden] The elves were hands-off during Sauron’s reign of terror, too, Puma. They locked themselves inside their kingdoms.
[Puma] jrr wrote than in the area of the rings of lothlorien and rivendell….1000 yrs seemed like 10
[Puma] so time did pass.just slowly
[Demosthenes] To some extent they had no choice there Chrstine. They needed Numenor’s help.
[miriel] now, what I do find interesting: if Elrond knew so much about this ring (he was there), why did not gandalf seek the answers from him?
[Anameleth] Hmm… I’ve never even thought about that..
[Puma] i am sure gandalf did get answers from gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I know, Demosthenes, I was just responding to Puma’s remark.
[Demosthenes]
[Puma] but no1 had handled the one to know its identifying marks other than isildur
[Darkover] Hmm, good question, Miriel. Do you think Elrond would have felt called upon to report any such questions/concerns to Saruman, who technically what still on the Council–maybe its head, I don’t recall, and Gandalf didn’t want that?
[miriel] he distrusted saruman, but he seems to trust elrond pretty much (brought the ring to rivendell etc)
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf was trying to find out how to identify the ring; I doubt Elrond could have helped him.
[miriel] that could be it, perhaps, Darkover
[Puma] no 1 but isildur knew what the rings marks were
[Lasak] But that was after he knew of sarumans betrayal
[Puma] elrond could not have known that
[ChristineGolden] Elrond didn’t know about the inscription, for example, or how to make it readable.
[thefoolishtook] rookie question, but im guessing gandalf and the istari where about during the first age?
[Puma] exactly
[Puma] no
[miriel] ChristineGolden: but would it not be more likely that elrond, who had seen it, would know, rather than that there would be a note from ages past still saved about this matter?
[Darkover] No, the foolishtook, they weren’t
[Puma] the istari came mostly about 1000 3rd age
[ChristineGolden] No, the istari arrived at the beginning of the 3rd age.
[Demosthenes] I have another question. If the Ring has an inevitably corruptive power (which everyone agrees on), was what Isildur and Elrond and Cirdan chose to do the best (least worst?) possible choice?
[Puma] not till sauron was arising again
[thefoolishtook] ok, thanks darkover, puma, and chris!
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, miriel, unless it was still hot from Sauron’s hand when he saw it.
[Puma] only isildur saw and took the ring
[miriel] so elrond never saw it?
[Puma] elrond and cirdan would not jhave known
[Darkover] Isildur should have thrown the Ring into Mt. Doom when he had the chance, but since we don’t know how much he knew for a fact about It, I don’t think we can judge him *too* much. Hindsight and all that.
[miriel] nessyness, welcome to the madNess
[Puma] they saw a gold ring
[ChristineGolden] Could you be more specific, Demosthenes, about what choice?
[Nessy] Ha, 5
[Darkover] Elrond couldn’t have destroyed It at the time without murdering Isildur to do it.
[Goldberry] They asked him to destroy it puma
[Nessy] Thanks….random 5
[Demosthenes] Darkover: but no-one could have done that it seems. it seems to be physically beyond anyone.
[Puma] ty Darkover…..i have been trying to make that point
[ChristineGolden] Then we would have had a much shorter saga, Darkover.
[Darkover] Yes indeed, Chris!
[miriel] had elrond perhaps told gandalf all he knew already?
[miriel] at an earlier point
[thefoolishtook] and Peter JAckson would be much less well off!
[Puma] its all just a bit more complex than a surface story….glad we are discussing it
[Darkover] Sadly true, Demosthenes
[miriel] oh, but now I remember, he knew that saruman had gotten the info somewhere… that explains it
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] Well, it’s speculation about fiction, miriel, but it’s reasonable to assume that the White Council discussed the ring.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Well, Isildur took the ring. this had all sorts of outcomes. Barring destroying the ring, which seems to require an impossible act of will, was he the best possible guardian in the circumstances?
[ChristineGolden] what a terrible thought, thefoolishtook.
[Darkover] didn’t Saruman keep insisting that the One Ring went into the sea long ago, so they should all just forget about it?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he did.
[Puma] for the wearers of the 3 rings.the one has an especial power
[Puma] cirdan and elrond had 2 of the 3
[thefoolishtook] yeah darover, but wasnt that so he could search for it without anyone taking too much notice
[ElenGalad] How long a time period did Isildur have the ring?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, gotcha, Demosthenes. God, no, he was a terrible keeper of the ring.
[Demosthenes] ElenGalad: a year or so?
[miriel] since he died: yes. give the ring to elrond and he would have been corrupted (eventually) =] great loss
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[ElenGalad] Thanks
[Goldberry] And gandalf had the third ring
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: so what would have been a better option (apart from destroying it)?
[Puma] isildur had the ring a bit over 2 yrs
[Darkover] Sure, thefoolishtook, but I brought that up as a way of saying that the Council did discuss the One Ring, but Saruman kind of stonewalled any further discussion
[Puma] no goldberry
[Darkover] night, Anameleth
[Puma] galadriel had the 3rd ring
[Puma] cirdan gave his to gandlaf 1000 yrs later
[thefoolishtook] ahh okay, i follow you now darkover
[Goldberry] Oops!
[Demosthenes] Isildur said to Elendur at the Gladden Fields that it was beyond his power and should go to the keppers of the three. Is that really any better?
[ChristineGolden] There was only one ‘good’ option, Demosthenes, and that was to destroy it. But half of ME would have been a better guardian than Isildur.
[Demosthenes] But you can’t destroy it.
[Darkover] I think the problem was that there really was no one who could be an adequate “guardian” for the One Ring, Dmeosthenes
[Puma] well…..they would not have taken the one….but perhaps it was not so easy to destroy.who could they send
[Demosthenes] Just leave it in the dirt? is that possible either?
[Puma] then sauron would still arise
[thefoolishtook] How about galadriel, do you think in the second age she would of taken it as opposed to letting frodo go in the third?
[miriel] I disagree: anyone was a bad keeper. It was best that it was not kept. Thus, isildur was perfect
[Lasak] wasn’t that what happened in a way
[Darkover] Is that truly fair, Chris? After all, Isildur doesn’t seem to have tried to use It much, even at the last.
[Demosthenes] miriel: logic would seem to indicate that?
[ChristineGolden] If the ring had been ‘given’ to someone else, perhaps that person would have had the humility to destroy it.
[Puma] isildur never used it
[Darkover] Leaving It in the dirt would have been a horrible idea, Demosthenes
[Darkover] It wouldn’t have stayed in the dirt
[Demosthenes] So what Isildur did was better than nothing?
[miriel] doubt that, the only one to give away the ring was bilbo. Isildur would not have done that
[ChristineGolden] Isildur suffered from Tolkien’s #1 sin, Darkover: pride.
[Puma] Darkover…..i am convinced now you get this topic well
[Darkover] I think being able to give the Ring to someone else would have been almost as difficult as destroying It.
[Lasak] I think what isildur did was better
[Lasak] he moved the ring to place where it wouldn’t be found for ages
[Demosthenes] Darkover: this seems likely too.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, I think so. Isildur was not a good guardian for the Ring, but who would have been? No one.
[miriel] darkover. like I said, agreed
[Darkover] Not intentionally, Lasak
[Lasak] no
[Lasak] but he did
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] true Lasak
[ChristineGolden] Isildur lost the ring in a river, Lasak; it wasn’t deliberate.
[thefoolishtook] but all hiding the ring for 100′s of years did was allowed sauron to rebuild
[thefoolishtook] 1000′s of years*
[Darkover] I mean, if we are discussing “what ifs,” an orc might have taken the Ring from Isildur when he was killed. Just pure good luck/Providence that didn’t happen.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: true. but it allowed prosperity in the meantime? does that outweigh the negatives?
[Darkover] It also allowed the good guys to rest up, so to speak.
[Puma] now in the great music….eru was said to make things anew that were unforseen….had hobbits evolved on purpose by eru.so they could handle the ring better than others?
[thefoolishtook] hmmm, so it allowed the free peoples to rebuild well enough to defeat sauron entirely demosthenes?
[miriel] btw, very interesting: hobbits seem to resist the ring (frodo and bilbo ) but gollum fell to its lure immediately
[Demosthenes] That too, Darkover. Like IU said earlier. the last alliance seems to have been a pyrric victory.
[Darkover] An intriguing thought, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Did it really allow prosperity in the meantime, Demosthenes? By the LotR, the West was in rapid decline.
[Puma] ty Darkover
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: not many empires last a thousand years. let alone three thousand.
[miriel] and according to gandalf, gollum was a hobbit… more or less
[miriel] so puma: I disagree
[Demosthenes] By human standards, Gondor in particular can claim an extraordinary longevity.
[Puma] even facing death.isildur knew saving the shards of anrsil was of great import….anotheer act of great forsight
[Demosthenes] And a great deal of that is because of Isildur.
[Lasak] I’m leaving now
[Demosthenes] seeya lasak!
[Puma] narsil
[ChristineGolden] I’m not talking about empire, Demosthenes, just prosperity, trade, communications, etc.
[Lasak] seeya
[Darkover] Yeah, Miriel, but I think Gollum was kind of a nasty type, anyway. I know he was being influenced by the Ring when he first saw It, but it didn’t take much for him to murder poor Smeagol, who was his best bud and relative. Contrast that with Bilbo sparing the life of Gollum, someone he didn’t know, who had been trying to harm him.
[miriel] now, wether Bilbo and frodo were “evolved on purpose” is another matter
[thefoolishtook] elves managed to maintain a standard but with the loss of arnor and the northern kingdoms?
[Demosthenes] puma: he should have given them to elendur.
[Darkover] bye, Lasak
[Puma] why Demz
[miriel] indeed Darkover, but he was a hobbit, so if the “hobbits resist the ring” was true, it should not have happened
[Isildursbane19] If I remember correctly, Puma, when the ainur and eru witnessed the music with the discord, they basically saw Arda in its entirety, including its creation, life and destruction, so yes, I would think, he did create them knowingly, or maybe not the race as a whole, but Bilbo and Frodo and Sam for sure
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: yes Arnor decayed more quickly. Possibly in part because it was the kingdom of Isildur’s direct heirs. And Sauron had especial malice toward them.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, Gollum was already corrupted before he took the ring.
[Demosthenes] puma: well, elendur might have survived then.
[Puma] no.the vision of the future was not complete
[Darkover] But Gollum’s resistance took a different form, Miriel, but it was no less resistance. He survived for centuries with the Ring eating at him, but he did not turn into a wraith, as a Man would have done
[Puma] i dont think so Demz
[miriel] very good point Darkover
[Darkover] and he endured torture and terror at the hands of Mordor, all because he loved and hated the Ring
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] excellent Darkover!!!!
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma (blushes)
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[thefoolishtook] haha its a very good point darkover
[Puma] also there was still a small window to a good gollum….he did have that 1 point of near reprentence
[Darkover] ty, thefoolishtook. You folks will turn my head.
[miriel] that one makes me so sad, puma
[Goldberry] Me too
[Puma] jrr said it was saddest moment in book
[miriel] I agree
[Puma] i do also
[Darkover] Yes. It was close, and it was sad, but nasty little cynic that I am, I doubt if Gollum’s repentance, even if carried out, would have lasted for long.
[miriel]
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Puma] not with sam around
[Puma] but sam had also to emain himself
[Darkover] Well, I agree with Sam about Gollum.
[Puma] remain
[ChristineGolden] Or as Reagan said, Darkover, trust but verify.
[thefoolishtook] call me harsh, but i’ve never really got the whole pity for gollum thing
[Darkover] Good advice, Chris
* Puma is smiling….this is a great discourse today
* miriel is yawning … great, but very late
[Puma] aww
[Goldberry] Thefoolishtook you are called harsh
[miriel] I think I shall go get some sleep
[Puma] you are a trooper miriel
[miriel] Night all!
[Puma] sweet dreams
[thefoolishtook] ah goldberry, im sorry!
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, the Ring had done a job on him. Of the two, Smeagol was the lucky one, even if he did get murdered.
[Goldberry] Night mirie
[Darkover] But as I said, I think he was a nasty type to begin with. His bad luck doesn’t change that.
[Darkover] Night, Miriel
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, I’m harsh, too, because I never felt sorry for Gollum. I’ve never understood the whole “Gollum fan club” thing.
[thefoolishtook] i know he’s had a horrid life and it wasnt his fault, but still, ive never really felt any pity for him
[Puma] yet as bad as gollum was.he kept his word to frodo.to never let sauron get the ring
[Darkover] Lord, no. Feeling a bit of pity for him doesn’t mean I want to form a fan club for him.
[Demosthenes] One other thing I’d like to raise briefly. Twice Sauron exerts himself (via his chief minions) against Isildur’s descendents/legacies. Once to destroy Arnor, once to take and then corrupt Minas Ithil. (the corruption thing seems especially vindictive).
[ChristineGolden] Well, I doubt that was deliberate, Puma.
[thefoolishtook] hi five ChristineGolden!
[Goldberry] I agree dark over
[Darkover] Well, Puma, I suspect that wasn’t a matter of trying to keep his word, but because he didn’t want Sauron or anyone other than Gollum himself to have it
[Puma] it was the pity of bilbo and frodo for gollum that saved middle earth
[Darkover] I think “vindictive” is Sauron’s middle name, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] i get that Puma, but on an emotional level, ive never really felt sorry for the character
[Puma] i agree Darkover.sort of lefthanded keeping his word….but word kept none the less
* Vince (Mibbit@torn-15B97E0D.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, but Isildur seems to have earned an especial ire.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] isildur took the ring
[Demosthenes] His chief foe and bugbear almost.
[Puma] isildur kept the kingship alive with the tree
[Demosthenes] isuldur saved the white tree. isildur established arnor and gondor.
[thefoolishtook] i’m talking to much about gollum anyway, not isildur, do we need to pull it back on topic?
[Darkover] Well, he did cut Sauron’s greatest toy/tool/weapon off Sauron’s hand, and knock out his power for a long time. Sauron’s not likely to forgive and forget.
[ChristineGolden] Well, first of all, he had to regain his strength, rebuild Barad-dur, etc., Demosthenes. By then, he probably thought that the heirs of Isildur had faded into inconsequence.
[Demosthenes] I guess key historical figures do attract powerful enemies.
[Demosthenes] In that context, it makes sense.
[Puma] it was the 1st sight of a surviving heir of isildur that drove sauron to attack too soon in the war of the ring
[Darkover] Plus, all the things you mentioned that Isildur did, would have displeased Sauron immensely
[Goldberry] Also cut off one of his fingers
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes. Sauron would fear the powerful, and Isildur was a very powerful enemy
[Puma] in the palantir i am referring
[ChristineGolden] Imo, Isildur is a tool Tolkien used, a means to explain how the ring was lost by Sauron.
[Demosthenes] And any surviving symbol of Isildur would be a slight against Sauron.
[Puma] after sauron saw an heir of isildur.he did not pay atention to all the things he should have
[Vince] how did the white tree of Gondor save the bloodline, Puma? You said Isuldor kept the line alive through the tree. I thought the tree was only a symbol of sorta.
[Darkover] As well as a big worry to the Dark Lord
[Vince] *sorts
[Puma] the tree was a symbol.but when no tree.there can be no king
[Demosthenes] oh, another thought, Luthien compelled Sauron’s surrender at Tol in Guaroth. And Isildur and Aragorn are descendents of Luthien.
[Puma] yes!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] So it goes back even further.
[Puma] yes!!!!!
[Darkover] And I suspect Sauron has a *very* long memory
[Demosthenes] that’s about 6000 years of being pwned.
[Puma] great point Demz!!!!!
[Demosthenes] No wonder he was so cranky.
[Puma] and gady Vince…..did not see you were here
[Goldberry] It’s past 1 am, I am going to have to leave you all
[Vince] Hello Puma. I didn’t wanna distract the discussion by introducing myself.
[Darkover] hi, Vince
[Demosthenes] Gnight goldberry!
[Puma] sweet dreams goldberry
[ChristineGolden] Whoa! Sleep well, Goldberry.
[Darkover] goodnight, Goldberry
[Goldberry] Cya
[Demosthenes] Hmmm. We seem to have come to halt. Any points we’ve missed?
[Darkover] Don’t believe so
[Puma] saurons hate from isildur could be examined after the palantir….sauron lost his concentration
[Darkover] Excellent discussion
[ChristineGolden] The tole Isildur played in regard to Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] role
[Demosthenes] Was Isildur an inspiration for Aragorn?
[Puma] yeah.we did a great job on this topic
[Darkover] There is that. That increased Aragorn’s claim to the throne
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, a 2-year old pried off a few keys on my laptop.
[Vince] not according to the movie
[Puma] oh my Chrsitine
[Darkover] The movie was entertaining, Chris, but not always canon
[Demosthenes] He did want to see the Argonath. So maybe Isildur was an inspiration.
[Darkover] Sorry, Vince, not Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s okay, Puma, the funeral is monday.
[Vince] in the movie, Isildur holds Aragorn back
[Puma] the movie got a lot wrong Vince
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was both an inspiration and a warning to Aragorn.
[ChristineGolden] Puma.
[Puma] thats why we read books Vince
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah that’s probably true. More often he says he is Elendil’s heir too.
[Puma] Exactly Christine
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[ChristineGolden] He showed Aragorn the heights to which Gondor could rise and how far a king could fall/be corrupted by power.
[Puma] Aragorn has to be elendils heir….since gondor had all ready excluded isildurs heir
[Demosthenes] puma: there s that
[Puma] and it seems in jrr once a law is made.its forever
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but it was Isildur who was not able to overcome the lure of the ring, Puma, and that had to weigh on Aragorn’s mind.
[Puma] agreed Chrsitine
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: which we kinda see in Bree.
[Puma] but in his travels aragorn had to see the will of sauron at work…so knew a good bit of saurons mind
[ChristineGolden] Psychologically speaking, you have to wonder if Isildur’s “example” didn’t buttress Aragorn’s ability to resist the ring: “No, I will be different….”
[Puma] which aragorn did use to turn the tide of war
[Puma] it did Christine
[Darkover] and Aragorn felt a degree of responsibility for the fate of the Ring because of his ancestor. He said something about how it was appropriate that “Isildur’s Heir should help repair Isildur’s fault,” as I recall.
[Puma] do you not think aragorn might have been afraid of that moment in bree
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think there’s something in that. he seems to have been very aware of his ancestors .. “isildur’s heir should repair isildur’s fault…”
[Demosthenes] oh. hah. gmta.
[Darkover] Afraid, no. but that was his moment of temptation, and he passed, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Yes, that’s what I meant, Demosthenes… and good point, Darkover.
[Darkover] So, have we covered everything?
[Demosthenes] i think so!
[Puma] would there have been a 3rd age without isildur….makes me wonder
[ChristineGolden] Probably not, but it’ll do.
[Demosthenes] puma: it would have been very different.
[Puma] yeah.i think we did great today
[ChristineGolden] Sure, Puma, Tolkien would have just written a different version.
[Demosthenes] Next weekend we’ll be visiting Helm’s Deep btw.
[Puma] cool beans
[Puma] short chapter
[Demosthenes] yeah. i like short chapters.
[Darkover] Back to the book
[ChristineGolden] brb, somebody’s fooling around the fence. gotta get my gun and see what’s going on.
[Demosthenes] Back to the book!
[Puma] enjoyed this great today people
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone. Great discussion.
Session Close: Sun May 26 09:27:12 2013

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