And remember, tomorrow (May 25 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing Isildur and examining to what extent he was the shaper of the Third Age.

Session Start: Sun May 19 07:16:27 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: The king of the golden hall | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok. We should probably start. People can catch up when they wander in.
[Demosthenes] “They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night. When at last they halted and dismounted, even Aragorn was stiff and weary. Gandalf only allowed them a few hours’ rest. ”
[Demosthenes] Gandalf sees a need for haste.
[Alatariel] So that tells us…
[Alatariel] Gandalf is kinda being mean
[Jenniearcheo] He knows sommat
[Jenniearcheo] about Saruman’s plans
[Raurenkili] we should start with: Baldor son of Brego built the Golden hall
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf is just being urgent
[timlotr] he seems to know what he is doing
[Anameleth] Mean?
[Raurenkili] *the
[Demosthenes] jennie: and it seems that Grima knows something when they arrive at Edoras also.
[Myra] I think that gandalf is more worried about what is out there, i.e. black riders and saruman’s orcs.
[Alatariel] And saruman
[Raurenkili] Yes, Gandalf knew they couldn’t lose any time
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Theoden will have heard of it. Maybe your coming was not wholly unlooked-for. It is but two nights ago that Wormtongue came to us and said that by the will of Th?en no stranger should pass these gates.’
[timlotr] hmm
[PippinForTheWin] I think Gandalf never forgot how Sam and Frodo were in peril every second of their journey. There wasn’t any time to rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as he’s forbidden Eomer to attack the orc party, but advised Théoden to have them ride off to the west instead.
[Demosthenes] Is that because of Eomer’s report about the man the elf and the dwarf? Or is it because Grima knows something about Gandalf?
[Jenniearcheo] Ah, yes. That, too
[Alatariel] So…that tells us Grima has…comepletely taken over theodens mind
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Jenniearcheo] Eomer hasn’t been back to Edoras, has he?
[Demosthenes] jennie: it’s as bit of a chessmatch. and the board is rohan, it seems.
[timlotr] Wormtounge having complete control, yeah, makes sense, don’t think he has jennie
[Darkover] I thought Eomer was back by this time, but had been imprisoned.
[timlotr] been a while since I read the book
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. A bit more subtle than they had to make it on the film
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, he had, and was.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, okay
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] I know he’s there at the end, as Hama sends for hjim
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the guard(s) agreed with Theoden/Wormtongue’s policy?
[Darkover] For threatening death to Grima, as I recall.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t know how far he’d had to come
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Th?en will have heard of it.
[Jenniearcheo] The outer guards?
[Blairwhitaker] I love the books just coz of all the extra content up to the film
[timlotr] I don’t think the guards agreed
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the guards agreed with Wormtongue. That was PJ’s slant, IMO
[timlotr] but they had to follow or receive the same punishment as Eomer
[Demosthenes] But they followed his orders?
[PippinForTheWin] well dems they had to follow the king’s orders, yes?
[Darkover] Yes, because Theoden allowed Grima so much power, I think
[Jenniearcheo] They are probably farther from Meduseld in mind as well as in body
[Demosthenes] I wonder how far they might have gone with that.
[Jenniearcheo] Than Hama
[Demosthenes] pippin: history is littered with examples of people who have stopped following a king’s orders.
[PippinForTheWin] true, true…
[Darkover] I suspect they would have wanted to hear the order directly from Theoden, if Wormtongue ordered Eomer’s death. Which was next on the menu, I suspect.
[Demosthenes] To some extent Hama is an example of this?
[Jenniearcheo] They follow his orders, but there’s some doubt.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but those people usually ended up imprisoned or dead themselves, too.
[timlotr] they might’ve not killed Eomer even if it was ordered I’m guessing
[Jenniearcheo] Hama does use his own judgement RE: staff and Eomer
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s an interesting thought. do you think it would have come to that?
[Raurenkili] they follow him under pressure
[Jenniearcheo] I think you’re right, Darkover
[Darkover] I definitely think it would have come to that, Demosthenes, or else Eomer would suddenly have died in his cell, or trying to “escape” or something.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad we don’t have to find out
[timlotr] Wormtounge might’ve done the killing of Eomer himself even if they didn’t follow his order (if it ever came to that that is)
[PippinForTheWin] it might have, but that doesn’t mean that the guards would follow through with it
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: yes, i do agree theoden’s men feel pressured.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s even little things: “the courtesy of your hall is lessened of late”.
[Anameleth] I think the guards feared saruman somewhat also
[Darkover] Happily, it didn’t come to that, PippinForTheWin, although I believe that some of the guards, at least, would have followed such an order if they believed it came from the King himself.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, that was in direct response to Grima’s rudeness
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: Also Theodred’s death.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[PippinForTheWin] i think that at this point, Theoden’s guards feel threatened because they realize Grima’s power. Maybe they thought that there would be no chance for survival if they refused orders?
[Jenniearcheo] timlotr: Only if he could have got away with it in secret, I think
[Darkover] Theodred’s death, we find out later, was engineered by Grima and Saruman between them. The whole purpose of the battle in which he died was to kill the son of the King.
[timlotr] right, that’s how he operates I believe jennie
[Blairwhitaker] I’d surely have noticed on seeing the king something was wrong with him
[Anameleth] Grima didnt have any REAL power, only what was in a way, given, to him.
[Anameleth] was given
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that and there was an army on Rohan’s western border. So they might have felt a need to “stay true” because of that.
[Darkover] Sure, Blairwhitaker, but seeing the problem, and being able and willing to do something about it, are two different things.
[Jenniearcheo] Remember that Théoden was in deed and in fact an old man.
[PippinForTheWin] not physical power, but anameleth, but mental power… the power to convince
[timlotr] Grima was under the influence of Saruman
[timlotr] I believe
[Phil] is it possible that the battle where Theodred dies happen when Grima wants everyone on a wild goose chase
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: in a way, Grima’s power comes from Theoden’s trust in him. Which is interesting.
[Blairwhitaker] Very true. Not sure what I could have done lol
[Darkover] IMO, the “spell” that Grima wormtongue put on Theoden was not a literal spell, the way it was portrayed in the movie.
[Demosthenes] Trust is a big part of this chapter. Who is worthy of trust? And why?
[timlotr] lol so true
[Jenniearcheo] What does Grima call Gandalf?
[Anameleth] agreed, his mental hold on everyone was more powerful than physical
[Jenniearcheo] Lathspell: Ill-news
[Darkover] I think it was more a matter of Wormtongue constantly telling the King, “Eomer is a traitor, he is young and strong while you’re an old man, and he just wants the crown for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] spell means word or news
[timlotr] Gandalf the Grey Jennie
[timlotr] I think
[Jenniearcheo] Just as Godspell meant goodspell. Gospel. Good news
[Jenniearcheo] It was Grima’s ill counsel that depressed Théoden. Not a “spell”
[Demosthenes] is lathspell an archaic word? rohirric?
[Jenniearcheo] “spell” in this case, merely meaning words
[Darkover] I think this chapter also makes the point, as Gandalf does to the King, that the person you can trust is the person who tells you what you need to hear, even if it sounds unpleasant, or isn’t what you might want to hear.
[timlotr] his voice had a charm to it some would say
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Also Anglo SAxon, of course
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a bit like strider. looks foul and feels fair.
[Demosthenes] thinking back to strider and frodo’s words at bree.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes!
[Demosthenes] this is /very/ similar.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf goes into this at the end. Originally Grima was merely an informant. But after Gandalf got free of Saruman, he started really counseling Théoden into a pessimistic depression.
[PippinForTheWin] right, jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: that would become easier after the first(?) battle of the isen too.
[Demosthenes] when Theodred fell at the ford.
[Jenniearcheo] Surely
[Jenniearcheo] Which, of course, was as arranged
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf was giving Theoden bad news, true, but I think the one most responsible for the King’s depression was Wormtongue, who was making him think that any resistance was hopeless and useless.
[Jenniearcheo] Despair was the lathspell
* Anameleth nods
[Demosthenes] ‘It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Th?red your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal Of the Mark. In ?mer there is little trust. Few men would be left to guard your walls, if he had been allowed to rule.
[Jenniearcheo] lol That’s what I meant, Darkove
[Darkover] Right, Jennie. Wormtongue was trying to sell the King on complete capitulation to Orthanc.
[Jenniearcheo] After Gandalf got free, it pushed Grima into doing so
[Demosthenes] Did anyone notice that Grima’s counsel is essentially conservative?
[Demosthenes] “do nothing”
* timlotr agrees
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Keep the men at home to guard the house
[Jenniearcheo] Not go out and interfere with saruman
[Darkover] Doing nothing isn’t necessarily conservative, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] Depression an despair can literally make people look old an withered after so long. This is what I took from the look of him in the film. Just more exaggerated
[Demosthenes] Passive, then?
[Darkover] That is what I took from the book, Blairwhitatker. From the PJ film, I got the impression that Theoden was being literally possessed by Saruman, through sorcery.
[Demosthenes] hiya ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Passive, yes, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Hi, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] I believe Théoden likens it to being bent with the weight of snow. Metaphorically, Gandalf was the wind that blew the snow off
[ChristineGolden] Hi, sorry I’m late.
[Darkover] Oooh, well put, Jennie!
[PippinForTheWin] hey christine
[Alatariel] Hi christinegolden
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: They had to make it obvious, and very quick
[Darkover] True, jennie
[timlotr] need to get going for now peeps, I’ll join y’all next week
[Demosthenes] jennie: like a deciduous tree in winter
[Anameleth] I like than metaphor jennie
[Darkover] bye, timlotr
* Alatariel agrees with Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Demosthenes] Do you remember how Gandalf cautions his companions to “speak no haughty word…”? Do you think he practises what he preaches? Also, does Aragorn come close to going against this?
[Jenniearcheo] With the sword, perhaps
[Demosthenes] yes, with the sword. that is an odd little episode.
[ChristineGolden] No and yes, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, all the fuss about the swords was useful in letting him keep the staff. Which was the only really useful weapon
[Demosthenes] Aragorn stood a while hesitating. ‘It is not my will,’ he said, ‘to put aside my sword or to deliver And?to the hand of any other man.’
[Demosthenes] ‘It is the will of Th?en,’ said H?.
[Darkover] Gandalf is more blunt than haughty, IMO, Demosthenes. He is just telling the King the truth, but he keeps his manners while doing so.
[PippinForTheWin] i think gandalf is an exception to his own words because he knows that doing so will free Theoden
[Darkover] Saruman is the haughty one, with his attitude that the King should acknowledge his authority before getting any “help” from Orthanc
[Demosthenes] Darkover: He does seem to let Grima implicate himself?
[PippinForTheWin] at the hands of anyone else, it wouldn’t turn out so well
[Matteo] he skirts the edge though
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Perhaps Gandalf understood that for Theoden to be truly free and start behaving like a King again, Theoden would have to figure it out for himself.
[Demosthenes] Possibly because Grima is so much in theoden’s trust that he has to let that trust be destroyed first.
[Jenniearcheo] Funny that there’s a real thunderstorm going on. It looked like Gandalf called it up.
[Darkover] Besides, no matter how pressing the need, it would not be advisable for Gandalf to just charge in and take over. It is the King’s Hall, not his, although Gandalf does give Grima a quick lesson in manners!
[Darkover] You summed it up well, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] jennie: maybe he did?
[PippinForTheWin] but gandalf wouldn’t get anything done with grima at theoden’s side
[Demosthenes] maybe it’s chance
[PippinForTheWin] so yes, dems, i think you’re right
[Demosthenes] He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe.
[Darkover] Right, Pippin, which is why Gandalf helped Theoden to understand what a worm Grima was.
[Darkover] I’m not sure anything happens by chance in Tolken’s world, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Did he call it up, or somehow know it was coming and use it?
[Anameleth] i agree with pippin, Gandalf had to get rid of grima in order to even confront theoden
[Demosthenes] ‘Now Th?en son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?’ said Gandalf. ‘Do you ask for help?’ He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he damped down the fire
[Demosthenes] And again that weather … metaphor.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, ‘chance’ seems to be more like fate in ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Right.
[Jenniearcheo] And light being hope
[Darkover] Or Providence, Chris, as I suspect Tolkien would call it.
[Demosthenes] A fool’s hope?
[Jenniearcheo] HOpe in the face of the despair long wrought by Grima
[Matteo] I always thought that Gandalf came back with a little more foresight than before.
[Darkover] Probably, Matteo, since he had been to the other side.
[Jenniearcheo] He’s certainly more sure of himself
[Demosthenes] In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: ‘Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, H?, has betrayed us!’ There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[Darkover] BTW, I find it significant that Gandalf specifically asked the King if Theoden wanted help.
[Demosthenes] Along the same lines, what does Gandalf do to Grima?
[Jenniearcheo] I wonder why Grima fell down?
[Jenniearcheo] I have no idea
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Yes, that’s a good observation.
[Blairwhitaker] I live how wizards seem to have thier own rules on magic an life. Almost like a different species to hobbits an men or elves
[Jenniearcheo] Hi miriel
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, though, about Gandalf being able to control the weather. If he could, why didn’t he stop the snow storm at the Redhorn Gate?
[Darkover] Not sure specifically why he fell, but I’m sure it was Gandalf’s doing.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] *love
[Matteo] perhaps because he is a coward at heart
[PippinForTheWin] Once Gandalf returns, isn’t he the most powerful of the Isatari? So he would be more sure of himself knowing that he could defeat the enemy behind this
[Darkover] Howdy, Miriel
[miri_HOF] hi all
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure that was ordinary weather, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Seb
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: didn’t want to draw attention there? Here, it’s not so important. Secrecy versus need.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Xanaseb.
[Phil] hi little m
[Xanaseb] hey hey.
[Darkover] Gandalf the White was more powerful than G. the Grey, Pippin, but that doesn’t mean his success was guaranteed.
[ChristineGolden] Sounds like
[PippinForTheWin] hi xanaseb
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i agree. Gandalf the white brings no guarantees of anything. just hope.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he simply knew the storm was coming and used it, the lightning flash, the ray through the clouds, etc
[ChristineGolden] hhmmm, sounds like a stretch to me. After all, the Company’s peril was deeper on the mountain than in Theoden’s hall.
[Demosthenes] he says as much to Theoden, too:
[Demosthenes] ‘Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears.
[Xanaseb] Darkover, Chris, PippinForTheWin
[miri_HOF] I think, that one of the reasons G the White was more powerful was that he could use a lot of power for a last chance. An all or nothing situation
[Blairwhitaker] I always thought he came bk as G the white as a metaphor for wisdom
[Phil] hi Xana
[Matteo] creating a momentary localized storm cloud is very different from actually affecting “world wide” weather phenomena like a snow storm
[Xanaseb] Phil
[miri_HOF] if he loses, he will leave, if he wins, he will leave
[Darkover] Also, as “the White,” I believe it symbolized that Gandalf was taking Saruman’s place
[miri_HOF] while gandalf the grey walked for many an age
[Jenniearcheo] If he could muck with the weather, you’d think he’d have used it other times
[PippinForTheWin] Jennie: Tolkien did want to stray away from ‘magic’, right? So maybe Tolkien tried his hardest to make it seem like magic without it actually being magic
[Demosthenes] Blairwhitaker: wisdom, hope and trust, i guess.
[Darkover] since Saruman had once been “the White.”
[Xanaseb] yeah, what with the many colours thing
[Anameleth] Thats so true pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] yes, PippinForTheWin. Agreed
[Raurenkili] brb
[Matteo] also purity, purity of thought and purpose
[miri_HOF] indeed PippinForTheWin
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would have made it clearer if Gandalf was able to control the weather. After all, he made no secret about Sauron’s ability to do so.
[Jenniearcheo] And it wasn’t considered a good thing
[miri_HOF] well, saurons ability had a lot to o with orodruin
[Jenniearcheo] It’s interfering with nature, after all
[Darkover] That makes sense, Chris. I doubt if Gandalf actually could control weather, either. Someone suggested a moment ago that he knew the storm was coming, and made use of it, which seems more likely to me.
[miri_HOF] after all, having a volcano is rather convienient if you want to mess with clouds
[Xanaseb] I dunno Chris, it’s a question of how much Gandalf or *any* magical being for that matter, was willing to use their full power/potential
[Xanaseb] of course, Sauron wouldn’t resist using his power
[Xanaseb] but Gandalf..
[Xanaseb] most certainly so
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure Gandalf would hold back if it would save the world . . .
[Jenniearcheo] But mostly the power he seems to gain is knowledge.
[Xanaseb] indeed.
[Jenniearcheo] (in his reincarnation)
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the Istari were given specific powers to fight Sauron.
[Anameleth] I think gandalf knew magic had a time and place in every situation, and used it acordingly
[Darkover] Of course, Xanaseb makes a telling point, too. “White” or not, Gandalf’s essential mission was still the same, to get out there and encourage/inspire people to resist Sauron as much as possible, not to do the whole job for them.
[Xanaseb] Anameleth, precisely
[Matteo] it seems that gandalf was never meant to save middle earth, just help those that would
[Demosthenes] Matteo: that’s right.
[Darkover] So, in other words, maybe he could control the weather, but that wasn’t his most important power, or maybe he thought it unwise to do so too often.
[Xanaseb] we shouldn’t percieve magic as a click of the fingers..
[ChristineGolden] Which would mean that Gandalf’s powers would be specific and limited, Darkover.
[PippinForTheWin] Exactly, Darkover. How would the world learn from its mistakes if these wizards just kept coming in to save them?
[Xanaseb] *eive
[Anameleth] agreed darkover, he could have, indeed, used his power to control the weather, simply to inspire
[Anameleth] if he cpuld even control the weather at all
[Anameleth] could
[Darkover] Well, I think as “the Grey,” they were limited, Chris. Don’t know about the “White,” but he still wanted others to do all they could themselves, as well.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not real big on “could have” in books.
[PippinForTheWin] I think that Gandalf relaized that if he didn’t control the weather at that moment to help Theoden, they would lose the war
[Darkover] And a bit of theater never hurts!
[Matteo] its possble it was a most an illusion, like darkening a room and seeming larger
[Jenniearcheo] At the end, he has the hobbits go deal with Saruman themselves, while he goes off to have tea with Tom
[ChristineGolden] I think it was simply Tolkien using nature (again) to dramatize the moment.
[miri_HOF] on the other hand: if something would almost completely destroy a whole race, they won’t learn from it either way
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: Except they go outside and it’s raining
[PippinForTheWin] Maybe Tolkien was trying to symbolize how important nature is in vital situations
[Matteo] coincidence
[PippinForTheWin] how it marks the difference between life and death
[Demosthenes] It’s too coincidental to be coincidence.
[Matteo]
[Demosthenes] If that makes sense!
[Darkover] Actually, in the first Hobbit movie, Gandalf tells one of the dwarves that he can’t do anything about the rain. Don’t know if that was following canon, or just a good line for the movie.
[Blairwhitaker] Or just nature itself tuning into gandalf at his time of need
[Jenniearcheo] The coincidence is that a handy thunderstorm appears to freak Grima out at just the right moment
[Jenniearcheo] And a sunbeam to offer Théoden hope
[Anameleth] maybe he was trying to teach them a lesson darkover
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, maybe the Valar were eavesdropping.
[Anameleth] about patience or something
[Jenniearcheo] The rain is just gravy
[Jenniearcheo] But less sticky
[Blairwhitaker] He may have been able to clear a small gap in the cloud to give hope
[Darkover] ha, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf could’ve just asked the Valar for help
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure much of this is escaping the attention of the Valar at this point
[ChristineGolden] Is there any other instance in LotR when Gandalf appears to control the weather?
[Darkover] I don’t believe so, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Not so far as I can remember
[PippinForTheWin] I don’t think so
[Blairwhitaker] Me either
[miri_HOF] nope, cannot recall
[ChristineGolden] Well, I’d think if he had that power, he would have used it more than once.
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: Ah, remember Manwe is the lord of the skies. I was thinking of that when I was reading this last night. But if it is the influence of the Valar, it is very, very subtle.
[Matteo] he does try to stop the snow storm befoe they go to moria, or is that just in the movie?
[PippinForTheWin] But Saruman caused the snowstorm, right?
[Anameleth] There are coincidences when he says he wont though
[ChristineGolden] That’s the movie, Pippin.
[Demosthenes] A tiny, tiny adjustment of the canvas that Gandalf has to work upon.
[Jenniearcheo] The mountain may have caused the snowstorm
[PippinForTheWin] I know, Christine. Haven’tread the books in ages
[Jenniearcheo] But we never really find out
[PippinForTheWin] *Haven’t read
[Demosthenes] There’s another one in Return of the King that I think might have been the Valar. We’ll come to that down the track.
[Jenniearcheo] It could have been Saruman (since he sent the birds and knew they were there) or Sauron
[ChristineGolden] Well, we do know that Gandalf was unable to stop that storm and it was far more important than a cloud and thunderclap over Edoras.
[miri_HOF] Demosthenes: manwe did some pretty nice work when Numenor was misbehaving, though
[Blairwhitaker] I suspect maybe he can control the weather but as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely, gandalf won’t use it when ever he wants only at times of dire need
[Matteo] I thought that the Valar had decided not to become involved directly in middle earth at this point. Hince the istari
[Demosthenes] miri: yes. yes he did. it’s an interesting thing to consider.
[Demosthenes] matteo: indeed. but is a nudge here and there direct involvement? Hmmmm.
[Anameleth] i agree Blair
[Jenniearcheo] Mind you, ChristineGolden, he is more powerful now than he was as Gandalf the Grey . . . Still, I don’t think he could control the weather, or he’d have used it later.
[ChristineGolden] Then he should have used it at the Redhorn Gate, Blairwhitaker, but he didn’t. So, I can only conclude he didn’t have such a power.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t call a nudge here and there direct involvement, but there is nothing wrong with them still taking an interest.
[Darkover] Sending the occasional eagle, that sort of thing.
[Demosthenes] Tulkas wrestling Sauron is gonna make a big dent in Gondor’s landscape. but, a bit of lightning and thunder to help out Gandy? No harm there.
[miri_HOF] lol darkover
[Darkover] Right!
[Xanaseb] lol
[Jenniearcheo] And perhaps they sent him a heads-up that the storm was coming?
[Blairwhitaker] Haha
[ChristineGolden] I think we’re adding an awfully lot of speculation without much to support it.
[Jenniearcheo] As I said, I think his main power is awareness and knowledge
[Anameleth] I dontthink gandalf wants to control the whole situation, only when it is dire
[Darkover] Probably. But we do love to speculate and discuss here.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: well, another person might call it Providence!
[PippinForTheWin] I think the Valar tried hardest to not be involved unless Morgorth was involved, because nobody would be able to stop him
[Anameleth] that is why he hardly uses magic
[Darkover] If you use magic too much, people expect you to use it all the time, and to solve their problems for them, I think.
[Susanita] clockmaker valar
[Puma] the valar were very involved in lotr
[Anameleth] Exactly darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Hi puma
[Darkover] As I said before, Gandalf’s main job was to get people to resist Sauron, and to help themselves
[PippinForTheWin] And we really can’t forget how hard Tolkien tried to stay away from the idea of magic
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and I enjoy it, too. But it needs something to support the argument.
[Darkover] Thank you, Anameleth
[Puma] that is correct darkover.that was his job
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Matteo] yeah, less magic and more inherent power
[Demosthenes] He’s a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] That’s what we see in this chapter.
[Darkover] Good word, Demosthenes
[miri_HOF] “teach a man to fish”….
[Susanita] zackly miri
[miri_HOF] oh, very good choice of words dems
[Demosthenes] By “catalysing” Theoden, he motivates an entire people (the rohirrim).
[Xanaseb] yeah, I entirely agree with the catalyst thing
[Demosthenes] It’s a very strategic intervention.
[Puma] i am here when you are well on….but did you discuss how at the door to meduseld…gandalf and aragorn supported one another
[Demosthenes] Least intervention ofr the most effect.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was much more credible than the movie version, Demosthenes
[PippinForTheWin] Not necessarily a catalyst, Demosthenes. While catalysts simply speed up a process, Gandalf did more by helping the people. If Gandalf weren’t there, the War would’ve been lost. Without a catalyst, the process would still happen, just slower.
[Jenniearcheo] What the business with the swords vs staff. Yes
[Darkover] I suspect many of Rohan’s warriors agreed more with Eomer than Theoden. Do something about those orcs rampaging through their country.
[Blairwhitaker] Well 10 mins till midnight. Gona have to now
[Susanita] let’s hear it for strategic intervention
[Darkover] Goodnight, Blairwhitaker
[Demosthenes] Some processes cannot happen without a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] night blair!
[miri_HOF] indeed, they need the cathalyst to start
[Jenniearcheo] Distract Hama with the fuss and argument about the swords, appear to capitulate, and then call the staff proscription an over-the-top demand
[miri_HOF] but they can continue without it
[ChristineGolden] It’s like Pippin and Merry meeting Treebeard: without that meeting, the Ents would not have marched on Isengard, etc.
[Puma] yes jennie.but gandalf also proclaimed aragorns name
[Darkover] Well, Sauron wouldn’t have been defeated without Gandalf. I think we can all agree on that.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, ChristineGolden.
[Raurenkili] goodbye everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Oh. True, Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Raurenkili
[miri_HOF] agreed Darkover
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah, agree. So is Aragorn being all bluster? Or clever? You could argue both seemingly. Is it an unspoken thing? Or did they plan it?
[PippinForTheWin] bye raurenkili!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Raurenkili
[Susanita] see ya Raurenkili
[Puma] sorry i missed 1st part of this convo
[Matteo] bye rauren
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to say.
[Puma] good turnout today also
[ChristineGolden] I think book Aragorn is a proud man, esp of his lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, what specific incident or remarks of Aragorn are you referring to, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] Does Gandy give over Glamdring to distract from the sword?
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And what is it that prompts Hama to trust them?
[Raurenkili] bye Puma
[Darkover] Oh, the surrender of the weapons at the door. I doubt if Aragorn was blustering–that is not his style.
[Demosthenes] ‘The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age’ said H?. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. ‘Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.’
[Demosthenes] I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf gives over Glamdring to make Aragorn reluctantly give up Anduril
[Matteo] there ya go
[Darkover] Gandalf had come to Edoras before, and Hama probably remembered and trusted him.
[Xanaseb] ah the classic staff thing
[Xanaseb] hehe
[PippinForTheWin] I think Hama think that the situation can’t get worse, so what harm can a staff do
[Jenniearcheo] Bait and switch
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one explanation for sure!
[Puma] and did you also notice.this is one of six instances in lotr that not following orders was the right decision
[Jenniearcheo] Congrats for counting. lol
[Darkover] Actually, I hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned it, jennie, but I’m not sure Aragorn would have surrendered his sword, without Gandalf first surrendering Glamdring.
[ChristineGolden] What’s the quote, Demosthenes, about Strider? If you were an agent of the enemy, you would be more foul and seem more fair? Perhaps that’s how Hama thinks, too.
[miri_HOF] lol
[Jenniearcheo] I assume Pippin at the Houses is one
[Darkover] You *counted* them, Puma? I’m impressed.
[Demosthenes] puma: I’m surprised there’s not seven seeing as seven pops up so very often in Tolkien.
[PippinForTheWin] Wow, Puma. That’s amazing!
[Puma] its an important theme in lotr
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[ChristineGolden] You noticed that, too, Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] seven for the win
[miri_HOF] what are the others, I wonder?
[PippinForTheWin] What are some examples of seven?
[miri_HOF] (off topic, but I’m curious)
[Matteo] we’ll have to do a recount
[Jenniearcheo] stars stones rings
[PippinForTheWin] ah
[Puma] eomer letting aragorn gimli and legolas roam free
[Xanaseb] great fact Puma btw.
[miri_HOF] 1
[PippinForTheWin] aren’t there seven palantir as well?
[Darkover] weren’t there seven fathers of the dwarves, too?
[miri_HOF] yep Darkover
[Puma] faramir not taking frodo and sam to minas tirith
[Demosthenes] seven stars. seven stones. seven names for gondolin. seven sons of feanor. seven sevens to seven the seven. it’s everywhere.
[Darkover] thanks, Miri
[miri_HOF] and durin woke alone
[ChristineGolden] and the dwarf kings had seven rings.
[Susanita] would you count Sam not staying away from the council?
[PippinForTheWin] But Sam wasn’t told not to come to the Council
[ChristineGolden] Seven is considered to be a sacred number.
[PippinForTheWin] So I don’t think so
[Puma] not really,there was no order.but good point
[Darkover] He wasn’t invited, Pippin, as Elrond pointedly observed.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that’s true.
[Puma] beregond not obeying his orders saved faramir
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin didn’t go away and die either
[miri_HOF] 2
[Jenniearcheo] As instructed
[Xanaseb] that’s a nice one with Beregond
[miri_HOF] lol jennie
[Darkover] Probably the most important example of how disobeying orders can be the right thing to do–Beregond protecting Faramir
[PippinForTheWin] I was just thinking that, Jennie!!
[Puma] so not obeying orders is an important theme….people have to use their own judgement
[Jenniearcheo] Merry snuck along with “Dernhelm”
[Puma] yes
[miri_HOF] so many, really
[Puma] and eowyn had been ordered to stay at dunharrow
[Darkover] Eowyn herself disobeyed orders by becoming “Dernhelm,” didn’t she?
[ChristineGolden] So was Merry, Puma
[Susanita] yeah that one’s kinda big
[Puma] yes christine….
[Demosthenes] Hama does use his own judgement. I think that’s similar to what Eomer does with “the three hunters”, and reflective of how troubled the guards at the main gate of Edoras were.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] I agree, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Pippin was ordered not to touch anything in Moria… that turned out well.
[Puma] jrr repeats this theme constantly for a reason
[PippinForTheWin] lol Christine
[Darkover] Well, disobeying orders is not always a good idea.
[Puma] correct
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[Matteo] oh no a bad one
[Puma] and there are instances of that
[Anameleth] True darkover
[Xanaseb] pretty fascinating, anyhow
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Gandalf’s resurrection wouldn’t have happened without Pippin
[Puma] gandalf was reincarnated.not resurrected
[ChristineGolden] As I recall, he was also ordered not to touch the Palantir.
[Xanaseb] well, the orcs might have found them anyway Jennie
[Xanaseb] even if Pippin hadn’t messed around
[Susanita] uh oh not that again
[Matteo] haha
[Xanaseb] Sus hey
[Susanita] llamaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true, too. We were talking earlier how everyone disobeying orders in Rohan could have easily caused it to fall apart. Revolution. In-fighting. Eomer in particular treads a fine line there.
[Darkover] yeah, I agree. Let’s not start the ressurrection vs. reincarnation debate again.
[miri_HOF] so… pippin disobeying: bad short-term, great long term results
[Puma] okie
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t matter, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had to fall and die
[PippinForTheWin] Also, we can’t forget how Merry and Pippin were ordered to not be in the Fellowship… and yet they were and look how great that urned out
[Puma] pippin showed gandalf it was indeed a palantir.and saved gandalf looking himself
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. By threatening death to Grima *in Theoden’s Hall,* he was flying in the face of a long-standing law/tradition, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] And get reincarnated or whatever you wish to term it
[miri_HOF] they were allowed
[miri_HOF] but grudgingly
[Darkover] Eomer should have taken Grima outside. I wonder if Wormtongue deliberately provoked that incident, in order to get Eomer locked up?
[miri_HOF] (not accountable for spelling at 2:00)
[PippinForTheWin] got to go now bye!!!
[Puma] btw…i did research on our peredhil convo….but will save that for another time
[Susanita] bye pip
[Darkover] Bye, Pippin!
[ChristineGolden] Yes, there’s something in appendix A about that, Darkover, and King Helm.
[Demosthenes] Eomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[PippinForTheWin] i hope to be back next week
[Darkover] We hope you are too, Pippin
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the more here.the more we learn by discourse
[ChristineGolden] Helm says in Appendix A to some king who wants to marry his son to Helm’s daughter that violence is forbidden within the hall.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, Helm took a disrespectful lord outside, in order to refuse him and punch him out, getting the name “Hammerhand” in the process.
[Puma] freca
[Darkover] Right, thanks Puma, couldn’t recall the name
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[Jenniearcheo] night
[Puma] sweet dreams
[ChristineGolden] That’s him. I’ve told you before, I’m horrible with names.
[Susanita] g’night Anameleth
[Xanaseb] night night!
[Darkover] But that demostrates that the “law of the Hall” is a long-standing tradition, one that apparently even the King didn’t break.
[Darkover] Bye, Anameleth
[Puma] very true darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] No weapons in the hall? A bit like not running with scissors.
[ChristineGolden] So, yes, Gandalf was breaking the sanctuary of the Golden Hall.
[Darkover] Didn’t say there were no weapons in the Hall, Demosthenes, just that you weren’t supposed to *use* them in the Hall, or at least, that is the impression I’m left with.
[Puma] well….is the staff really a weapon….that is debateable
[Demosthenes] puma: if i start hitting you with a stick, you’d probably agree it was a weapon.
[Darkover] Hama’s being ordered to relieve our heroes of their weapons was apparently a new or recent order.
[Puma] i could find points either way
[Matteo] Yes, I’m pretty sure in case of attack there were armed guards and such, it was probably a “stranger danger” thing in this case
[Darkover] While you were ducking the blows, Puma?
[Susanita] a stapler could be a weapon
[Puma] nah
[Jenniearcheo] Because Grima knew they were coming. Gandalf in particular
[Susanita] or a pencil
[ChristineGolden] Oh, yes, Puma, large sticks are one of man’s oldest weapons.
[Puma] just swat them aside
[Susanita] which I used in first grade on a punk little boy
[Darkover] He probably had it coming, Susanita
[Susanita] he did
[Darkover] lol
[Puma] but that is like hobits being great at throwing stones…not exactly a conventional weapon
[Susanita] little perv tried to look up my skirt
[Darkover] eeww
[Jenniearcheo] So Théoden goes outside and cheers up a bit, but not wholly.
[Jenniearcheo] It still takes a sword
[Darkover] Well, jennie, I doubt if things could be remedied in an instant
[Matteo] well they didnt have game boys so, throwing rocks was probably a skill learned very young
[Puma] well…..remember….theoden “fall” was his own fault
[ChristineGolden] Possibly a phallic symbol, Jennie?
[Darkover] Wormtongue’s been working on him for a long time. He will need a bit of encouragement to start being kingly again.
[Puma] so theoden had a lot to make up for.and he did
[Jenniearcheo] A power symbol, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] I think it was a symbol of power, as in the power to cut someone’s head off, Chris!
[Puma] theoden had gotten lazy with his job as king
[ChristineGolden] Theoden regaining his sword could be a metaphor for regaining his [sidelong glance at Barliman] “manhood.”
[Jenniearcheo] A symbol of power in his hands. Rather than the despair of being a powerless victim
[Darkover] and frightened, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: a bit like the sceptre (of annuminas)
[Puma] every1 was frightened
[Jenniearcheo] Note that everyone lays their own swords at his feet
[Demosthenes] Swords are used to dispense justice (ie: lopp people’s heads off)
[Darkover] I always thought sceptres were meant to symbolize the might of clubs, rather than phallic symbols, but then, I am not a Freudian.
* Susanita blinks
[Puma] and also notice….it was eomer who gave him guthwine
[Susanita] sorry, dem
[ChristineGolden] Me, either, Darkover, but swords are used throughout lit as phallic symbols – thus my comment.
[Puma] he did not get herugrim till later
[Darkover] true, Chris
[Demosthenes] why does Gandalf say that Saruman is “apt to overlook his bargains”?
[Darkover] And Puma, everyone was frightened, but not everyone was the King, in charge of protecting the land and its people, and an old man whose strength was fading, and having a counselor who kept pouring metaphorical poison in his ears.
[ChristineGolden] He’s a liar and a cheat.
[ChristineGolden] Saruman, that is.
[Demosthenes] Is he “gaming” Wormtongue? Trying to sow dissension?
[Puma] yes darkover.but theoden let it happen
[Darkover] I think that was Gandalf’s way of saying even if Saruman agreed to leave Theoden and Rohan alone, he couldn’t be counted on to keep his word.
[Susanita] what Darkover said
* Puma nods to darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Who was it that suggested allowing Grima to prove himself. or not?
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Demosthenes] Jennie: theoden i think. that weas clever. very clever.
[Puma] i believe that was gandalf Jennie
[Matteo] yes, it was very King Solomonish
[Demosthenes] ‘If this is bewitchment,’ said Th?en, ‘it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast. No, not one shall be left, not even Gr?. Gr? shall ride too. Go! You have yet time to clean the rust from your sword.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Mercy, lord!’ whined Wormtongue, grovelling on the ground. ‘Have pity on one worn out in your service. Send me not from your side! I at least will stand by you when all others have gone. Do not send your faithful Gr? away!’
[Darkover] Oh, I’m not saying theoden was totally blameless, Puma, just saying that his position was under more pressure than that of the ordinary citizen. And that Theoden wasn’t going to snap out of it immediately.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Theoden, supported by Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] ‘You have my pity,’ said Th?en. ‘And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with my men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith.’
[miri_HOF] that one is powerfully written
[Puma] i can agree with that darkover
[Darkover] None of which cheered Grima up at all.
[Demosthenes] Dilemma. Wormtongue cannot continuue to play both sides without endangering his skin.
[Jenniearcheo] Ultimately a coward
[Puma] yes.grima was caught in his own net
[DawnWolf] hello all (;
[Susanita] hi DW
[Darkover] And yet, even then, he was continuing to stall and to serve his true master, Saruman, by doing so, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Such people usually are, Jennie.
[Puma] gday Dawnwolf
[Darkover] Hi, DawnWolf
[miri_HOF] hi again DawnWolf
[DawnWolf] susi (;
[DawnWolf] hey miri (;
* Dwynaway is now known as Dwyna
[Demosthenes] Darkover: time is the enemy of Gandalf here. and the friend of Saruman. Wormtongue knows this: the longer he can keep Theoden from Westfold the more likely Saruman’s forces are to triumph.
[Demosthenes] So that’s why he plays a delaying game throughout.
* Puma nods
[Susanita] hey Dwyna
[Darkover] Right!
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] Hi, Dwyna
[Demosthenes] So Saruman can defeat Rohan piecemeal.
[Dwyna] hi Susanita
[ChristineGolden] But how long is the delay, really?
[Dwyna] hello Darkover
[Demosthenes] Sun Tzu would approve.
[Susanita] hehe dem
[Dwyna] yep
[Darkover] Not very long, maybe, but any delay is not good at this point, Chris
[Puma] a few hrs at that time….and every minute counted
[Jenniearcheo] Probably his last instruction
[Demosthenes] Since the first battle of the fords of the isen?
[Demosthenes] Which was several days ago.
[Puma] 5 days b4
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, I’d guess. Plus the warning RE: Gandalf
[Matteo] well it would take time to gather the horses and supplies and then they wouldnt travel that much at night so possibly a whole day or more
[Darkover] And Theodred’s death would have left the King feeling even more bereft and vulnerable
[Puma] yes
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt that the exchange between Grima and Theoden lasted longer than an hour, and the Rohhirrim were already mustering. I think Grima failed on this one.
[Puma] he did fail
[Darkover] But not for lack of trying. What a traitor and a creep.
[Puma] and in the end.they were better off going to helms deep than fords
[ChristineGolden] I mean in causing any significant delay, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, he’s succeeded in allowing the army to build up
[Matteo] I’m thinking maybe at this point it was less keeping THeoden distracted and more delaying his return to sauruman in failure
[Demosthenes] Failure doesn’t mean he didn’t try. And i think Grima was always looking to create delay, or confusion.
[Puma] just 1000
[Demosthenes] It was something he’d been doing for a long while.
[Demosthenes] And ever Wormtongue’s whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.
[Puma] yet grima had been of useful service in the past
[Darkover] Very true. You can’t help someone who won’t listen
[Jenniearcheo] Was he solely motivated by greed (getting the pickings of Meduseld and getting Eowyn) or also scairt of Saruman and the Riders?
[Puma] saruman turned grima by promising him eowyn
[Darkover] It must have been quite distant, Puma. And was he serving Saruman secretly even then?
[ChristineGolden] Probably first by greed, Jennie, then later, also fear.
[Demosthenes] Yes, Puma. I think Gandalf ackowledges that. I suspect that’s why he lets him go, too?
[Jenniearcheo] I remember the riders scaring the pants off him at some point
[Darkover] I think that is in the appendices somewhere, Jennie
[Darkover] I could be wrong
[Darkover] Demosthenes or Puma would probably know
[Jenniearcheo] Definitely not. I haven’t read them
[Puma] what are you referring to darkover
[ChristineGolden] I only remember Grima at Meduseld, Isengard, and in the Shire.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, perhaps the fear of them convinced him of Saruman’s (and Sauron’s of course) ultimate power.
[Demosthenes] Oh, there is something in the hunt for the ring about that.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t the riders have some story about finding a dude on the way back to Edoras from Isengard and questioning him?
[Jenniearcheo] Where am I remembering that from?
[ChristineGolden] Grima was evil at heart – he was bound to get involved with ‘the wrong people.’
[Demosthenes] unfinished tales.
[Darkover] There is some passage about when Grima meets up with the Nazgul, or vice versa, and he can hardly tell them what they want to know fast enough to save his life. He was quite terrified, and it was touch-and-go whether they would let him go, as I recall, although they did.
[Puma] that sound like UT.fords of isen
[Darkover] I don’t recall where the passage appears, either, except it wasn’t in the body of the LotR books
[Demosthenes] i believe the black captain thought that putting the fear into him would make him potentially useful (if still unreliable)
[Darkover] You are probably right, then, Puma
[Susanita] brb
[Puma] or are you referring to gandalfs meeting with elfhelm?
[Darkover] Yes, and terror was probably the main weapon of the Nazgul, anyway
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think the Nazgul instilled fear like most people breath, Demosthenes – pure habit.
[Demosthenes] and fanatical devotion to the pope.
[Puma] fear was always the nazguls main weapon
[Demosthenes] err, Sauron.
[Darkover] A little Monty Python allusion, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think it was part of some discussion of the Nazgul’s fear-whammy
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Demosthenes] i am perchance easily amused.
[Matteo] yeah, they had a very disturbing affect on ppl
[Puma] well….we had a view of the black breath all the back to bree….when merry faced nazgul
[Matteo] i mean i know when i first read the books they gave me the heebie geebies
[Susanita] back
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think this all came up when we were discussing the black breath etc.
[Puma] side
[Demosthenes] We should talk about Aragorn and Eowyn before we wind up.
[Susanita]
[Darkover] Yes, their initial relationship is both touching and sad
[Jenniearcheo] He seems a bit worried about her attraction to him
[Demosthenes] ‘Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ she said. ‘Hail Lady of Rohan!’ he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was a bit cloying.
[Darkover] Yes, because he eventually realizes she is falling in love with him, and he can’t return the sentiment
[Darkover] Gosh, Chris, don’t you have any romance in your soul?
[Puma] its sad.but a window into eowyns mind
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, he realizes she is falling for him
[ChristineGolden] “long, lingering looks” and “words unspoken between us” kinda stuff.
[Puma] but it was only 1 way
[Jenniearcheo] her hand trembles when they touch at the cup exchange
[Darkover] Although at that point, she might have fallen for any attractive, strong, brave man who showed up
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I do, Darkover, but I don’t show it like actors in a B movie.
[Demosthenes] or hobbit
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, any potential king will do
[Susanita] two sentences that pack a big wallop
[Darkover] Yes, Aragorn was in love with Arwen, Puma
[Matteo] haha, yeah the only other choice was grima
[Demosthenes] ‘Speak not so!’ she answered. ‘A year shall I endure for every day that passes until your return.’ But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.
[Demosthenes] ‘The king shall come again,’ he said. ‘Fear not! Not West but East does our doom await us.’
[Puma] anything was better to eowyn than the despair of theoden
[Demosthenes] Aragorn dodges again. but with soemthing portentous this time.
[Jenniearcheo] True, Puma. I don’t think she’d have looked twice at Aragorn when Théoden was still down with the case of Depression.
[Darkover] I don’t believe at that point, Jennie, that Eowyn knew that Aragorn was a king, or would be. I believe she loved him because he was “high and puissant,” as someone describes him later. Plus, he seems like a way out of the situation she is in.
[Matteo] so Aragorn is both an escape from her current life and someone desirable to her
[ChristineGolden] That’s another thing: why doesn’t Aragorn just man up and say, sorry, but there’s someone else?
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: Didn’t Gandalf out him at the door?
[Susanita] she was limited in her choices among the Rohirrim I would think
[Demosthenes] jennie: they four seem like miracle workers to Rohirrim. Also, an elf and a dwarf would be remarkable company. “legends spring from the grass” and all that.
[Susanita] being the king’s neice and all
[Puma] well….think how the dunedain were later described….and aragorn was of course their leader….the men of rohan looked like boys beside the dunedain
[Darkover] I always got the impression that before Gandalf’s arrival, Theoden was almost at the point of needing to be spoon-fed. And guess who would have had to do that? No wonder Eowyn was so frustrated!
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf might have revealed who Aragorn was, I don’t recall.
[Darkover] Exactly, Puma. Why shouldn’t Eowyn have been attracted to him?
[Jenniearcheo] He did, at the door.
[Demosthenes] I doubt any rohirrim had ever seen either an elf, or a dwarf. and claims of being Elendil’s heir … i would guess that there would be mighty legends surrounding that name.
[Puma] also remember…theoden would know who aragorn was….they had met b4
[Matteo] i thought aragorn had been to Rohan before?would she not know him from that?
[Darkover] All very impressive
[ChristineGolden] But she could have married someone from Gondor (and finally did), Susanita. After all, that’s how Theoden’s father found a wife.
[Darkover] Aragorn had served Rohan before, but long before Eowyn was born.
[Jenniearcheo] And this was after armorning up and all. Word would have gotten around who ARagorn was before the toast
[Demosthenes] It would be as if Nelson Mandela or someone equally amazing came up and engaged you or i in chit-chat.
[Susanita] zackly my point
[Puma] but theoden would know aragorn.he was old enough
[Puma] and theoden adreesed aragorn as lord….he knew
[ChristineGolden] Trust me on this one, Demosthenes: Mandela could talk to me until the Second Coming and he wouldn’t make me hot.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that
[Demosthenes] well, choose your poison then
[Darkover] lol, Chris, but I quite agree. There are more physically attractive examples, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] justin beiber for everyone then!
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Dwyna] O.O
[Puma] aack
[Darkover] Er, no
[Jenniearcheo] Even my teenage fell beast won’t go near him
[Jenniearcheo] She prefers someone from Sleeping with Sirens
[Demosthenes] Basically, Aragorn has suddenly become a superstar in Rohan.
[Puma] yes
* Dwyna shudders
[Matteo] yep all that and a bag of chips, suddenly she sees salvation, and I feel like he speaks to her differently than the other men in her life
[Puma] that theoden knew who araogrn was…is one of things the movies put in.and jrr just expected us to figure out
[Jenniearcheo] Kellin Quinn, she says. There you go.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure about that. Tolkien’s Aragorn has the kind of manly virtues that would have been very admired by anyone in that age, heir to the throne of Gondor or not.
[Darkover] BTW, someone asked a few comments back why Aragorn didn’t just announce that he was in love with someone else. I think he didn’t want to embarrass Eowyn by being too open about it. After all, although her feelings were pretty plain, she hadn’t shown any *open* indication of interest.
[Susanita] he’s probably ever so slightly exotic and that makes him compelling too
[Demosthenes] Darkover: agreed. also it would kill tension.
[Puma] good observation darkover.and true
[Darkover] Plus, Aragorn was probably hot. Maybe not as handsome as an Elf, but hot by Rohirric standards.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Was Aragorn sure, at this point, that Arwen wasn’t going West?
[Matteo] haha, in the end I guess you do have to fall back on, Cuz thats how the Professor wrote it
[Demosthenes] That makes Gimli the equivalent of the superstar band’s drummer?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Or the bassist
[Susanita] spontaneously combusting drummer?
[Darkover] No, Jennie, but that didn’t mean he was ready to forget about Arwen, or about their engagement.
[Puma] remember…arwen was with aragorn all the time….she looked after him with her mind
[ChristineGolden] That was me, Darkover. There’s ways to indicate a lack of interest without saying ‘get lost.’
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Susanita] he kept that Arwen thing pretty close to the vest even to the reader
[Demosthenes] There was no certainty that they would even win.
[Matteo] Ok, maybe this reading to much, but I’m thinking he had other things on his mind than another loive interested
[Matteo] love
[Demosthenes] All they had was hope.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, ChristineGolden. But we’re looking at it from a contemporary perspective. Aragorn probably doesn’t have to turn girls down all the time.
[Puma] but i am sure he did b4
[Demosthenes] This chapter provides a tiny bit more hope too. But maybe only a glimmer.
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: He noticed, anyway
[Puma] maybe not often
[Darkover] And this girl was the niece, and emotionally sort of the daughter, of the King of Rohan.
[Darkover] A certain degree of discretion is advised.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he seem the sort of guy that a girl in Barliman’s would chat up?
[Puma] aragorn was being diplomatic with eowyn
[ChristineGolden] In that age with its dangers and uncertainties, Jennie? A strong warrior/protector would be considered a perfect catch.
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, but the culture is totally different.
[Puma] but i am sure in his yrs as thorongil in gondor.aragorn got plenty of attention
[Susanita] we know many girls in this Barliman’s who would chat up Aragorn
[Matteo] Right, but what I mean is he was not thinking at that moment ” I need to figure out how let her down” he was preoccupied with saving first Rohan and then heading east
[Puma] he would more fit in there
[Darkover] And if Gandalf did “out” Aragorn by revealing that he was of royal blood, that would be an appropriate match for the niece of the King of Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] People didn’t often look for their own mates. At least not well born folk
[ChristineGolden] Lol, Susanita.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sus
[Darkover] That is real life, Jennie. In Tolkien’s world, lots of couples married for love.
[Jenniearcheo] His arm actually did tremble when he put it around me for a photo. But it was early days then in terms of fame
[Susanita] he prob’ly also saw it as an unneeded complication
[Matteo] thats much better put susanita
[ChristineGolden] They seemed to in Middle Earth, Jennie. I don’t remember a lot of arranged marriages.
[Darkover] I agree, Susanita, but he seems to have wanted to be kind to Eowyn, too. He did not want to hurt or offend her.
[Jenniearcheo] Do you remember a lot of dating?
[Susanita] right, Darkover
[Darkover] Dating, no. Although there could have been courtship of sorts
[Jenniearcheo] Pretty much you meet your one true love and that’s that. Except in this cawse
[Jenniearcheo] case
[Jenniearcheo] thing
[Puma] and something we are forgetting.aragorn had good forsight as a ruling dunedain….so what did he see?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Faramir wooed Eowyn, Jen, in the House of Healing.
[Puma] he did
[Demosthenes] puma: peril mostly.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, she was distracted and needed to wake up. True
[Darkover] Yes, Chris speaks true, that was really sweet, IMO
[Puma] but that is way ahead ogf this chapter
[Matteo] oh yeah his line there was perfect
[Jenniearcheo] But again, there’s not a lot of “call me maybe” and then getting dumped and crying at the bar with your girlfriends and meeting a new guy, etc.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, but there’s no example in this chapter I could think of, although Theoden did meet and marry a woman of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, not that we see, anyway
[Puma] no
[Puma] that was thengel theoden father.who married morwen
[Susanita] Theoden probably got out of Rohan a bit more than the average villager
[Puma] theodens wife was hild
[Susanita] thank you Puma I was trying to remember that
[Puma] and hild died in childbirth
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, I doubt that Aragorn’s body language has ever invited attention from women, so he probably had no experience in letting them down easy, is my point.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, sorry, Puma, I forgot it was the dad.
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was born in Gondor.
[Susanita] Aragorn essentially a loner much of the time
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Demosthenes] jennie: and maybe his BO too. We’re talking about someone who lives rough most of the time.
[Puma] dont be sorry jennie.easy to get confused.so many names.and you know stuff
[Matteo] I agree though that he was an honorable person who would want to do right by Eowyn.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Jenniearcheo] He met Arwen quite early on
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Puma] at age 20
[Susanita] they were all probably a bit … unwashed
[Darkover] But he cleaned up good, Demosthenes. Remember how Arwen was impressed when he did so, at Lorien?
[Jenniearcheo] Very early for one of his sort
[ChristineGolden] Well, as a female, I’d rather a guy just say “no thanks” rather than stringing me along soas not to hurt my feelings.
[Matteo] you mean his dunedain musk. its like catnip
[Jenniearcheo] Good thing Galadriel put clean clothes on him
[Puma] hehe
[Jenniearcheo] lol Matteo
[ChristineGolden] Another one of her schemes.
[Demosthenes] Okay, do we have any final points on this chapter? Anything we’ve overlooked?
[Jenniearcheo] They finally give Shadowfax to Gandalf
[Puma] did you discuss earlier……that the beginning of this chapter was an intro to rohirric culture?
[Jenniearcheo] formally
[ChristineGolden] The historic bonds between Gondor and Rohan?
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] So would I, Chris, but then, you and I live in a world where a woman can generally be more open about her feelings than Eowyn’s was. Plus, this is a fairy tale, with the accompanying romance and plot developments. So Aragorn could hardly have nipped the whole thing in the bud.
[Darkover] I think we’ve discussed about everything.
[Puma] okie
[Susanita] what’s next week’s topic?
[Vince] Why does Eowyn fall for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure we have one yet.
[Demosthenes] Not sure. Open to suggestions.
[Darkover] We discussed that, Vince
[Vince] Sorry, I’m late :/
[ChristineGolden] Oh, looking for ideas, Demosthenes? lol
[Puma] how about the presence of the valar in lotr?
[Vince] Next week, can we go back to the Hobbit?
[Vince] I just finished reading that
[ChristineGolden] movie or book version?
[Vince] and I’m reading Exploring J.R.R Tolkien’s The Hobbit book
[Demosthenes] Not keen to run two book chats in parallel.
[Susanita] well, we read it here too a while ago
[Jenniearcheo] Corey’s book, Vince?
[Vince] Yeah
[Jenniearcheo] Good read
[Vince] I’m enjoying it
[Darkover] We could just discuss the next chapter of TT. Or something else Tolkien-related
[Vince] I thought this chat was book only?
[Puma] who is the author?
[ChristineGolden] maybe something about the evil creatures of ME?
[Jenniearcheo] Is there a particular aspect of The Hobbit you want to explore? Dragon-sickness, maybe?
[Susanita] it’s usually book alternating with another topic in the “off” week
[Demosthenes] vince: not alweays. though we’ve had a strong run of book stuff lately.
[Jenniearcheo] Corey Olsen, Puma
[ChristineGolden] balrogs, dragons, orcs, Nazgul, etc?
[Darkover] Why don’t we leave it open for the time being?
[Vince] hmm, I’d be interested in discussing the nature of evil in Tolkien’s works but yeah dragon sickness interests me too
[Puma] we can suggest to Demz over the wekk
[Vince] those two kinda go hand in hand
[Puma] week
[Vince] nature of evil and dragon sickness
[Demosthenes] send me some emails demosthenes@theonering.net
[Susanita] dragon sickness is a good one
[Jenniearcheo] Sounds like a plan
[Jenniearcheo] (the emailing)
[Darkover] aka “greed”
[Puma] the nature of evil in jrr….would take a week.not 2 hrs
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Matteo] or longer
[Vince] maybe like how greed for gold and the effect gold has on the characters and how similar it is to the lure of the ring later on
[ChristineGolden] Are you sure you want me to do that, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it could be lightly explored
[Jenniearcheo] And chasing after sparklies?
[Jenniearcheo] (Susanita)
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Darkover] Well, we don’t have to make the decision right this minute. We will think of something, we always do
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Jenniearcheo] ACK
[Susanita] I’m reading a book about China and dragon means smth else
[Demosthenes] I promise to at least read them
[Susanita] kinda fun
[Puma] gold is a powerful morgoth element
[Vince] I wish I’m not always late
[Puma] i am reading a good book about aragorn now
[Vince] Saturday is just my day off and I do other things too.
[Susanita] reset your clock?
[Darkover] so, are we all finished here?
[Matteo] this was fun
[Vince] I made Torn Tuesday though
[Puma] good job everyone.its been a pleasure
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] I went to TORn Tuesday. once.
[Myra] hm still reading that book I see puma
[Jenniearcheo] Husband is cooking me chicken curry
[Jenniearcheo] Mmmmmmmmmm
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone.
Session Close: Sun May 19 09:51:40 2013

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

Every week on the Main Discussion Board, poster Roheryn shares a game she creates from Tolkien’s works.  We’ve been having fun playing SAST (Short Attention Span Theatre) from The Hobbit.  Come join the fun here.

In the Reading Room, posters are still discussing The Silmarillion.  They’re well into Chapter 12, “Of Men”. If you’ve ever wanted to delve into The Sil, but you weren’t sure you wanted to tackle the enormity of this deep Middle-earth history, the Reading Room is the perfect way to start.  Join them with Chapter 12 Part 1 and Part 2.

In Lord of the Rings Movie Discussion Board, we never get tired of sharing our favourite quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Stop by and let us know what yours are.

   There was a thunderous round of applause on the Feedback Discussion Board when Admin and long-time poster dernwyn pointed out that there are now banner circle pictures from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey mixed with the LotR pics!  For those who haven’t visited the Boards, you really must go take a peek.  When you read posts or visit the main pages of each Discussion Board, take a look in the upper left-hand corner of your screen.  Up until now, there have been pics from The Lord of the Rings.  Check out The Hobbit pics here.  For those of us who live on the Discussion Boards, this is Awesome!!

   Want Hobbit Movie News? Each week, TORN poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect the Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

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Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

If you live in Seattle or will be visiting it in the near future, check their website for all the details on location, hours and entrance fees. The Iron Throne will be there for just the first 3 months of the exhibit, so if you wish to see either that or the Tolkien Manuscripts, plan carefully. EMP Museum.

Shows

We had a wonderful time in April, attending 3 shows in Melbourne and the Gold Coast of Australia, and our first visit to CalgaryExpo in Canada. It was exciting to meet some new and old Flamers in person for the first time. We were especially grateful for the kind donations of chocolate for the crew !
Most of us just got back to work on Monday, a bit tired, but ready to get going again. And of course, we are only 2 months away from the Big Show; San Diego Comic Con. Time flies, we can’t wait ! We will be in the same booth space (3513B) as last year. This has now become our own Weta booth, we are no longer sharing someone else’s space. We will have our largest ever team of Weta crew at Comic Con this year. We’ll be announcing names soon. Please come and say Hi We are shipping out a container full of goodies to San Diego at the end of May, full of confidential, new stuff. We still have lots of work to do, as there are always a handful of items packed in at the last minute.

The Hobbit – 1/6th scale polystone range

We have now launched the first seven pieces in the 1/6th scale range: Thorin, Gandalf, Bilbo, Dwalin, Balin, Bombur and Gollum. Thanks so much to all of you who have supported this range, we consider these to be the best quality sculptures we have created. This will be our signature line for The Hobbit trilogy of movies and we have several more outstanding pieces in production. A lot of thought has gone into the poses, and how the various characters could be displayed together. We expect this will become clearer over time. We will most likely unveil the next sculpture in the range in July.

Some of you have asked why there are no creatures launched yet ? The reason is that most of the creatures are created in digital form for the films, and the digital work is normally finalized very late in the film making process. So therefore we could not start work on these creatures until very late last year. But never fear, they are coming !

The Hobbit – Environments

We had hoped to have launched an environment by now. We were actually building a few pieces last year. But once the decision was made to change from 2 to 3 movies, we had to put them on hold until the second movie is released.

The good news is that we do have 2 new environments in production now, so you will be seeing them at some stage soon.

The Hobbit – New Polystone Product Ranges !

Over the next few months, we will be launching some new smaller scale pieces, priced under US$100, including a few special pre-releases from the upcoming movie The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. Look out for these at Comic Con!

The Hobbit – Prop Replicas

Our Staves have been extremely popular. The first production of both the Staff of Radagast the Brown and the Staff of Gandalf the Grey, sold out even before they arrived in our warehouses. The second and final production run will take place over the next few months and we hope to release these final pieces before the end of 2013. We strongly suggest pre-ordering to ensure you don’t miss out.

The Key to Erebor is our highest selling item. We have sold out our stocks twice and are struggling to keep up with production

Daniel Reeve has had a great time creating hand made Contracts and Maps.

Jewelry from Middle-earth

Our new range of Jewelry from Middle-earth has been a huge hit, especially The One Ring in gold plated tungsten carbide, created by Jens Hansen Gold and Silversmith. We continue to struggle to keep up with supply for this item, the Evenstar and the Elven Leaf Brooch

We have a new Stone Pendant launching in the next week. Keep an eye out for it

The Hobbit – Maps and Art Prints

We now have a room in our office dedicated to storing tubes with all the Maps and art prints created by the artists who worked on the movies. We will continue to expand this range and would be grateful for a poll to vote on the scenes you’d like to see from LOTR and The Hobbit.

If you are coming to Comic Con in July, this would be a great opportunity to get some of these art prints signed.

You can also expect to see something new from Daniel Reeve soon too

The Lord of the Rings

There are a couple of items in production from LOTR.

The Fellowship of the Ring – Set 2 starts arriving in our warehouses over the next month, and will be followed up by Set 3 in a few months time. All three sets look fantastic displayed together, with a mirror set behind them, as we have done in the Weta Cave

We will also be releasing a new sculpture of Arwen soon, as part of the range of smaller scale pieces; Gollum, Gandalf and Strider

Next shipment

Our next shipments arrive in our 3 warehouses in the US, UK and NZ over the next month, including new pieces such as:

• The Fellowship of the Ring – Set 2
• The Pipe of Fili the Dwarf
• The Staff of Gandalf the Grey (already sold out)
• Gollum Enraged

Changing Warehouses in the US

In late May / early June, we will be changing our warehouse in the US. So if you are planning to make any orders in the near future, we recommend making your order in the next 2 weeks.

And for customers in North America, we will be announcing a range of special offers early next week, to help us reduce our inventory before we move to the new warehouse. Watch out for this in our next newsletter !

Cheers

Tim

Also, TORn regular Puma linked this excellent Youtube video of JRR Tolkien reading from the chapter when the Ents come from Entmoot to march on Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Apr 21 07:26:47 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s topic: The Two Towers. Treebeard!!! | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Let’s start and people can catch up?
[Jenniearcheo] It’s more involved than I remember
[Xanaseb] tis the looooong one yup?
[Demosthenes] jennie: truth
[sunshower] it is long
[Erestel] Hello! What’s the current Treebeard discussion?
[Pete_R] No, Jennie, I was imitating that famous Ent from Brooklyn, Ralph Kramden
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[sunshower] let’s!
[Puma] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPV63iW6gFM
[Xanaseb] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Erestel: We are discussing the unexpected length of the chapter
[Puma] that link is a good way to start
[sunshower] haha Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol Pete
[Puma] jrr himself
[Demosthenes] jennie: i like that as a starting point. It’s surprising … and yet not really.
[Xanaseb] haha nice Puma.
[sunshower] fits with Ent talk
[Xanaseb] indeeed
[Xanaseb] very well hehe
[Puma] nothing like the masters voice
[Jenniearcheo] Well, no forest is worth describing if it doesn’t take a long time to describe.
[Pete_R] I love hearing Tolkien read his stries
[Agonold] It takes a while to say anything in entish, let alone read about such amazing creatures
[Xanaseb] o.o though his ‘to Isengard’ really grates the ears lolol
[Puma] its upposed to
[Xanaseb] yup, desired effect
[Erestel] Ah, yes. A chapter as slow as the mannerisms of the old ent himself.
[Puma] hobbits covered their ears
[laughing_gull] I love that, never heard it before
[Jenniearcheo] I’m more interested in their on-again-off-again relationship with the elves
[Darkover] Jennie, I got the impression the Elves were interested in the Elves once, but no longer
[Jenniearcheo] hah
[Darkover] sorry, Ents
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I thought you meant that.
[Puma] well.to me this chapter introduces us to one of most original creatures in all literature
[Darkover] By this Age, the Elves weren’t interested in much except the past
[Jenniearcheo] As they’re fading, and all
[sunshower] self centered those Elves
[Pete_R] but elves are always interested in elves.
[Darkover] yes, I was unitentionally funny
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Agonold] On Jennie’s point, if anyone here plays LOTRO, an elf complete nerds out when he gets to meet an ent.
[Darkover] howdy, Puma
[Xanaseb] lol.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think it’s more than just their appearance.
[Agonold] It’s like a little kid meeting mickey mouse
[Xanaseb] well, I think the Ents are quite their own overall.. though it’s hinted that they were more.. open?.. in the past
[Demosthenes] There are plenty of novel-looking creatures dished out in fantasy settings.
[Puma] well….other than ents teaching ents to speak…and yes.treebeard had met celeborn and galadriel…we dont know of any ent/elf interaction
[Erestel] When’s that, Agonold? I remember killing a rouge ent at one point and meeting one on the shores of Nenuial.
[Erestel] *rogue
[Agonold] Erestel, its during the epic quest, you meet him just outside of the raided orc camp near the end of the entwash arc with the rest of the crew.
[Puma] so where shall we start?
[Demosthenes] What makes ents unique?
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the walking trees thing?
[Xanaseb] what makes them unique ??????!!…..
[Xanaseb] lol……
[miriel] dems: everything?
[Puma] well….many things make ents unique
[Puma] language
[Darkover] I’m not sure they would say Ents are unique. They remind me of male dryads, actually
[Jenniearcheo] Not many other species transmogrify between plant and critter and back
[Pete_R] and sentient (?) thought
[Darkover] I think dryads were originally female, I mean
[Xanaseb] Darkover… unique in Middle-Earth anyhow
[Puma] i dont know of any middle earth creature as strong as ents
[Darkover] true, Xanaseb
[laughing_gull] I think their relative unknown-ness makes them pretty unique in Middle-Earth
[Darkover] Trolls are, I think, but then, trolls are the dark version of Ents, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] They stand up in the rain to sleep?
[Darkover] as orcs are of elves
[Pete_R] I’d like to see a wresting match between an ent and a troll
[Agonold] according to Treebeard, Sauron was jealous and based trolls off of the ents.
[Xanaseb] lol Pete inded.
[Darkover] Right, Agonold, as I just said
[Erestel] I’d say an ent is stronger than a troll. Trolls can’t split stone with their voice.
[Puma] trolls/ent was just treebeards theory….he is not all knowing
[miriel] indeed Darkover and Agonold
[Darkover] neither can Ents, so far as I know, Erestel
[Darkover] they can tear stone as if it is paper, but not with their voices
[Pete_R] I aree, Erestel, but I still would like to see them fight
[Puma] yes.ents did split stone with their voices
[Erestel] I remember something being said about the power of their voice in battle, during the battle of Isengard.
[Darkover] Maybe it is just as well it takes time for an Ent to make up his mind about a person–not a good idea to get on their bad side
[Puma] it is there Erestel
[Pete_R] but it makes sense, Ouma, since he made orcs based on (eand from) elves
[Pete_R] Puma, not Ouma
[Puma] no.jrr had many theories about orc origins
[Darkover] After all, Puma, neither Sauron nor Morgoth could create–they could only corrupt
[Puma] he decided it was not elves
[Pete_R] since when? I didn;t read that
[Darkover] I don’t recall that, either, Puma
[laughing_gull] I’m pretty sure in LOTR they originated from elves
[sunshower] Treebeard mentions that these Orcs may be corrupted men?
[Puma] have you read HOME 10-11.its in one of those 2
[Demosthenes] I wondered, reading this chapter, whether Ents were the most patient creatures in middle-earth … or the greatest brooders.
[Pete_R] He did say that, and if he recanted later, I missed it
[Darkover] Maybe both, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (maybe one is just the flipside of the other)
[Demosthenes] GMTA Darkover
[miriel] the slowest, certainly
[Erestel] There were several different explanations for the origins of Orcs, but as far as I know the only one that made it into official canon is Elf corruption by Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] The ultimate Middle Earth couch potatoes
[Puma] i think ents are like the forest….not seeming to do much
[Pete_R] Well, ents *are* slow to anger, so that makes them patient, I guess
[Xanaseb] I think they are devoid of many of the characteristics of humans, elves and dwarves.. the nastier sorts…
[Darkover] GMTA? Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] well there’s no evidence for it in anycase
[laughing_gull] They are slow and contemplative but that makes them grow strong
[sunshower] well, Pete_R–Treebeard did have a bit of an outburst right off the bat
[laughing_gull] so I wouldn’t call them couch potatoes
[Puma] true Xana….right off treebeard treats the hobbit in a kindly manner
[sunshower] he did catch himself though
[Jenniearcheo] Great minds, Darkover
[Demosthenes] But we see that Treebeard has been thinking a long long time … and that seems to play into the extent of their anger when they do get annoyed.
[Darkover] Thank you, Jennie
[Pete_R] which outburst, sunshower?
[sunshower] “I will stop it” he boomed
[Demosthenes] In fact, Treebeard says that his first instinct was to squash merry and pippin.
[Puma] till he heard their voices
[Pete_R] but thankfully, he wasn’t hasty
[Demosthenes] Ents are a bit wild?
[Darkover] Happily, he didn’t. Again, it’s a good thing Ents aren’t “hasty.”
[Puma] yes
[Pete_R] I guess that shows that ents *can* act quickly, if ned be.
[Puma] ents are the wild side of nature
[Puma] entwives the tame side of nature
[Jenniearcheo] laughing_gull: My point was the fact that Treebeard had known for some time about Saruman’s dirty deeds but admits he should have done something and didn’t. Then, too, sometimes ents become treelike if they aren’t active
[laughing_gull] true Jennie!
[Darkover] I suspect in earlier Ages, they were not so somnolent.
[Xanaseb] Dems wilder maybe… but also less marred by evil conscience/influence
[Demosthenes] and nature is on its own side. Fangorn says that a few times.
[Pete_R] As Treebeard said, it takes a lot to rouse an ent
[Darkover] They just became that way over time.
[Jenniearcheo] Entwives seem to prefer “ordered” nature. Gardens and orchards
[Puma] well…..remember .in the willowmeads of tasarinan.treebeard had traveled far in the past
[Jenniearcheo] “Peace” meaning stuff growing where you planted it
[Darkover] I agree, Jennie, I noticed that too.
[Xanaseb] wanderer hi
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all over Beleriand and all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gmta = great minds think alike (belatedly)
[laughing_gull] What had changed that made them become more …somnolent I guess?
[Pete_R] I wonder if th ents originally lived in the Tasarinan area, but moved eastward to escape Morgoth and Sauron
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: good question
[Demosthenes] They grew up?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he mentions the . . .what, “great darkness” or whatever? several times
[sunshower] in the Spring–Tasarinian
[Jenniearcheo] The flooding of the western bits
[Darkover] Maybe just the passage of time, laughing_gull. Maybe that is normal for Ents, the way Elves become more past-looking, and start to fade
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe that took the fun out of the world
[miriel] if they change over time, will they change from what we saw in LotR?
[sunshower] Summer–Ossiriand
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s the same reason that elves became less interested in the world around them.
[Darkover] Probably, Miriel
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Pete_R] that would probably do it, Jennie
[Demosthenes] hullo wanderer
[miriel] wb wanderer
[Demosthenes] miriel: I think they change in the span that we see them, actually.
[Demosthenes] And these changes are introduced by Merry and Pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that he mentions deep dark places in woods. But he strongly implies Lothlorien is worse than the Old Forest in this regard. But we saw the opposite
[laughing_gull] Yes Treebeard mentions that later I think
[miriel] they got woken up, for sure
[galenrandir] Hello!
[Darkover] Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Elves taught Ents to speak … what do Merry and Pippin teach them? To be hasty/hastier?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe. Why would ents worry about being captured by fairies, though?
[Jenniearcheo] That seems a mannish sort of worry
[Demosthenes] I think that’s likely.
[Pete_R] Treeberad, re: hlorien: “Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower. Ah well! But it is a queer place, and not for just any one to venture in. I am surprised that you ever got out, but much more surprised that you ever got in: that has not happened to strangers for many a year. It is a queer land.”
[Darkover] I think Merry and Pippin also reminded Treebeard that the Ents are still part of M-E
[Pete_R] Lothlorien
[Xanaseb] lol @ being captured by fairies.
[PippinForTheWin] they reminded treebeard that even though people don’t really care for trees, they can still mke a difference
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . that’s the parallel to the elves, really. Tolkien used to use the terms interchangably
[Pete_R] To not be so self-involved, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] and maybe, that the Ents had a responsibility to more than trees, with people like Saruman and Sauron around
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: like elves?
[Darkover] As Pete said
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s a good thought too.
[Pete_R] exactly, Demz
[PippinForTheWin] thanks
[Demosthenes] There seems to be a certain amount of (elvish) resignation about Fangorn at the start of the chapter that no longer is there at the end.
[PippinForTheWin] i think what really inspired treebeard was that these two little guys were standing up to this huge ent
[sunshower] what is with the liquids that seem to be gold and green?
[PippinForTheWin] so he figured that anyone of any size can change the world
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, there was some spooky light juju going on in Treebeard’s house
[laughing_gull] That’s an interesting point, PippinForTheWin, he had kind of given up but the hobbits hadn’t
[Darkover] PippinForTheWin, I wouldn’t say they exactly “stood up” to him, more like they persuaded him. Don’t confuse book with movie.
[miriel] I think merry and pippin brought to light what he had been trying not to see, even if he knew of it in the back of his head
[Jenniearcheo] Most resignations, through the whole story, tend to disappear with greater understanding.
[sunshower] the blending of the two lights…..hmmmmm
[PippinForTheWin] true… hadn’t read the books in a long time
[Darkover] Merry and Pippin reminded the Ents of their responsibilities, I think
[PippinForTheWin] yeah, that there was still more that he could do to protect his forest
[Darkover] right
[PippinForTheWin] even when all else hope failed
[Pete_R] I’ve read the books 19 times, but I still forget sometimes some events that are movie-only and book-only. Time to read again
[Demosthenes] I think they both persuaded and inspired him. And that carried over in the entmoot. I think, maybe, they were a catalyst for something that might have happened eventually anyway. But which otherwise might have happened too late for either Rohan or for the Ents themselves?
[Demosthenes] What do people think of this?
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Xanaseb] yup
[galenrandir] i agree
[Xanaseb] I think so.
[Darkover] That sounds exactly right to me, Demosthenes
[laughing_gull] I don’t necessarily agree lol
[PippinForTheWin] could be
[Darkover] The Ents would have galvanized themselves eventually, I suspect, but it would have been too late.
[laughing_gull] I don’t think it’s made clear if it would have happened or not
[sunshower] Treebeard now understands “what he is up to”
[Demosthenes] We do know Treebeard was brooding over the destruction of the trees. But that’s all he was doing. He was … fatalistic?
[PippinForTheWin] though i don’t think that anyone with the determination of merry and pippin would at any other time come to him
[sunshower] thanks to M&P, I guess
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he was waiting for someone else to care about the ents
[Agonold] Whenever I read this chapter/ think about the entwives I feel like Pippin and Merry should have went back to the Old Forest and asked old Tom Bombadil if he knew anything about where the entwives might be.
[Demosthenes] Thanks to M&P. that’s … serendipity.
[Pete_R] Good point, Dems. R=The ents were so sleepy, mediatiating on their own navals that it would have taken a prolonged attack on the Old Forest to rouse them, but it probably would have been too late. Merry and Pippin saved the day
[Xanaseb] aha.
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, Tom may only have known if they’d passed through his land
[Darkover] I always wondered why they left.
[Darkover] the Entwives
[Pete_R] Listening to “In Dreams” on Pandora
[laughing_gull] I always feel sad that we never find out any more about the entwives
[Demosthenes] ‘Up we go!’ said Merry joyfully. ‘Now for a breath of air, and a sight of the land!’
[Demosthenes] They climbed and scrambled up the rock. If the stair had been made it was for bigger feet and longer legs than theirs.
[PippinForTheWin] i wish we knew what they looked like
[Demosthenes] So this really is a turning point.
[Agonold] knowing where they went is better than not knowing anything, jenniearcheo
[Pete_R] Sadly, Tolkien said somewhere (Letters, maybe), that the entwives were probably dead.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they favored one sort of home and the ents another. They were less and less compatible as time went on, and then Sauron seems to have destroyed the orderly gardens and orchards.
[PippinForTheWin] did he say that in teh books?
[Demosthenes] Also, somewhat ironically, saruman encompasses his own destruction by bringing the hobbits in contact with Treebeard.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he kill them all? Hard to say
[Erestel] I think it was said that they traveled east, but for what reason I can’t remember, and that the Brown Lands by the Anduin were once their domain.
[miriel] indeed, it is sad, about the entwives
[Demosthenes] I’d never thought of that before.
[Pete_R] Not in the trilogy, PippinForTheWin, elsewhere
[miriel] and even if they were not dead, they had probably changed too much anyway
[Demosthenes] Is that providence?
[galenrandir] I’ve forgotten, is it known what happened to the Entwives after the Brown lands?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. Interesting
[Pete_R] True, Demz, re: Saruman. And Sauron eventually brought his own destruction abiut in a number of ways–making the Ring was the biggest goof
[Darkover] The departure of the Entwives probably isn’t, but I think Merry and Pippin meeting up with Treebeard was providential
[laughing_gull] I’m sure Tolkien would have seen it as providence
[laughing_gull] considering his beliefs
[sunshower] *making* other lifeforms is kind of against the rules, isn’t it?
[Jenniearcheo] We never hear, galenrandir. Treebeard thinks they’ve gone west or something and that eventually they’ll meet up with them. Made it sound like they’d all board some log canoes for Valinor or sommat. Weird
[sunshower] or adapting, rather
[Pete_R] True, if Merry and Pippn hadn’t been captured by orcs and brought to the edge of the Old Forest, the war would have gone very differently
[Demosthenes] It also goes back to Gandalf speaking in favour of M&P after the Council. Someone like Glorfindel /probably/ could not have done this.
[Demosthenes] Don’t you think?
[sunshower] …even the smallest person….
[Darkover] Definitely, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] true
[PippinForTheWin] definately
[Xanaseb] *definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Particularly with the elvish-entish distrust that’s creeped into the relationship
[PippinForTheWin] *definitely whoops
[Demosthenes] Not just because of the weight of history between elves and ents. But also because of the different world-view hobbits bring.
[Demosthenes] yes jennie. the novelty of hobbits forces treebeard to re-examine many things.
[Jenniearcheo] Indeed
[Pete_R] Deemz, that was anither example of gandalf’s second sight. Like when he chose Bilbo. I like it when, on Unfisnished tales, Gimli asks if gandalf knew more than he was telling them about events, and Gandalf wouldn’t answer
[PippinForTheWin] i think hobbits are so untouched by corrupt ways, treebeard realizes that the opinions aren’t biased
[Demosthenes] ‘Why not make a new line?’ said Pippin.
[Demosthenes] ‘Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers.
[Demosthenes] Put us in amongst the four, next to Man (the Big People) and you’ve got it.’
[Jenniearcheo] If the old verses about the peoples of the world are incomplete, perhaps their worldview needs a general rethink
[laughing_gull] Demosthenes would you care to elaborate on the different world-view? not sure I follow
[Demosthenes] ^^^ i think that is more important than it first seems.
[Darkover] and hobbits still take pleasure in life. They are not jaded or tired, like the older species. Treebeard later refers to them as “the laughing folk, the little people.” That may have been a factor.
[PippinForTheWin] they keep to themselves
[Demosthenes] I guess, culturally, Hobbits bring a positivity and “carry-on” attitude that seems to be inherent to them.
[Jenniearcheo] And they seem to care about the ents, once they hear the story.
[laughing_gull] keeping to themselves seems to be something ents and hobbits have in common interesting
[Jenniearcheo] How English
[laughing_gull] ok
[Demosthenes] That’s not something you always get from men or elves or dwarves.
[michael336] In Chapter 2 of Fellowship, Sam mentions someone seeing trees walking near the Shire. I always assumed that these were the Entwives.
[galenrandir] me too
[laughing_gull] me too michael
[Demosthenes] like Darkover says, they are not jaded.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps that’s part of why Treebeard didn’t do anything about Saruman for so long. At one time, they’d been friends. Even though Saruman had never imparted any information, at least he seemed to care.
[Darkover] IMO, Hobbits don’t have the curiosity that the Elves had–or had once–but they do care about people, in a way that is almost unique to them.
[sunshower] breath of fresh air, Hobbits
[Darkover] agreed, sunshower
[Demosthenes] Yeah, all these things.
[PippinForTheWin] i think treebeard thought that saruman would change back from his evil ways, but once he saw all the destruction,he lost hope
[galenrandir] I can see the entwives enjoying the area around the shire
[Darkover] I think you’re right, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s another interesting thought. Did Treebeard hope that?
[Jenniearcheo] True, galenrandir. They do like cultivation
[PippinForTheWin] he didn’t want to believe it, which is why i think he didn’t want to take part in the war
[PippinForTheWin] he just hoped
[Demosthenes] He was in denial that things had changed?
[Pete_R] yes, Demz
[sunshower] elephant in the room thing
[PippinForTheWin] maybe?
[PippinForTheWin] not really sure
[Darkover] Also, the Ents don’t seem too big on making things happen–they seem to prefer to wait for things to happen.
[flufftheagent] hulloooo
[Jenniearcheo] Or he thought that since he was essentially betrayed by the one dude who cared at all . . . Why bother doing anything if nobody was “on his side”
[sunshower] hi flufftheagent
[Darkover] hi, flufftheagent
[Pete_R] he woudn’t accept it until he saw the damage that ors had done to the forest
[Demosthenes] I cannot remember that he ever told. me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face, as I remember it – I have not seen it for many a day – became like windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside.
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Jenniearcheo. how could he know that Merry and Pippin wouldn’t turn out like saruman?
[sunshower] Pete_R, he *had* seen the damage before M&P got there, right?
[Darkover] Maybe that was how he rationalized it, Jennie–an Ent’s first responsibility is to the trees
[Jenniearcheo] Because unlike Saruman, they told him nearly their whole story.
[Pete_R] oh yeah, sunshower–need to read agan
[Demosthenes] ‘I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. ”
[galenrandir] he also liked their voices
[flufftheagent] what is this nit picking?
[sunshower] [--gets movie influences!
[laughing_gull] they “reminded him of something he couldn’t remember” right?
[Darkover] probably they reminded him of Entings, laughing_gull
[Demosthenes] ” he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” that’s an interesting summation of Saruman’s character.
[PippinForTheWin] maybe he hadn’t been that cared for since the Entwives?
[laughing_gull] that’s what I always thought
[Darkover] and an accurate one, Demosthenes
[michael336] I think Treebeard figured, “It’s not our fight.” He and the Ents had lived through ages of fighting among the other races. This is one more instance of the “hastiness” of the non-Ent races. Just sit back and let it play out. it doesn’t concern the Ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Growing things. So, the entwives preferred planned, orderly growing things and the ents preferred wild growing things. How like men they really are
[Darkover] I think that was Treebeard’s attitude, Michael336, until Merry and Pippin persuaded him otherwise.
[Demosthenes] michael336: there’s also a bit of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” going on in this hcapter.
[PippinForTheWin] It seems that the ents are more or less like the eagles- they stay out of anyone’s business unless it concerns them
[Pete_R] true, michael336, the ents had been withdrawn from the world for a few thousand years, probably
[Darkover] well, we could argue that is true for most people, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] treebeard says as much:
[Demosthenes] ‘I will stop it!’ he boomed. ‘And you shall come with me. You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way, too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor will have an enemy behind as well as in front. Our roads go together – to Isengard!’
[michael336] I can see a parallel between the Ents and America’s isolationism prior to WW2. Not that Tolkien was making this connection….
[PippinForTheWin] Darkover, but at least in the land of ME, there are many similarities between the two
[Darkover] But in defense of the Ents, when they do make up their minds to do something, there is nothing halfway about it
[Demosthenes] Tolkien would deny any allegory, I’m sure.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think that’s the flip of being such patient things. Once the patience is exhausted there are no half measures.
[michael336] Not an allegory, but perhaps an inspiration?
[Demosthenes] We see this in the search ofr the entwives too i think.
[Pete_R] Isolationism is as old as civilization, I bet
[Darkover] well put, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Except that over time they ventured less and less far
[Demosthenes] They throw themselves wholly into trying to find them.
[Demosthenes] I guess that is … despair?
[Demosthenes] or acceptance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps. Although I think he doesn’t quite want to accept their demise
[miriel] maybe a mix?
[Pete_R] sounds like despair
[Jenniearcheo] He still has hope
[Demosthenes] A faint hope.
[PippinForTheWin] i think he gains hope from M&P
[Pete_R] as in “The etwives may still be alive, but I doubt if we can find them”
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they remind him of teh Entwives
[miriel] but from his talk, it sounds like he does not want to accept it
[Demosthenes] Perhaps the loss of the Entwives made the ents more fatalistic too.
[Jenniearcheo] Their fave place was decimated by Sauron and he wonders where they went, rather than whether they’re dead
[Demosthenes] I’d never considered that.
[Pete_R] Or entings, more likely, PippinForTheWin
[laughing_gull] interesting thought
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Darkover] could be
[PippinForTheWin] i think he’s worried that the Entwives have forgotten him, and he feels forgotten until M&P show up
[Xanaseb] that’s a good point about the Entwives
[Darkover] and probably left the Ents feeling more isolated
[miriel] I wonder, with their long lives, wether they had a need as strong as other beings to multiply
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] Maybe not, miriel. Ents remind me of Elves in that way.
[galenrandir] interesting thought Pippinforthewin
[Pete_R] Whatever, I’m sure tht Treebeard’s hopes of finding the entwives had been severely rocked, by the time he met M&P
[Xanaseb] I can’t remember the story he tells now.. did he say that they suddenly dissapeared one day, or that they realised one day that they could not find them?
[miriel] the latter
[Darkover] doesn’t he say they lost them?
[miriel] they crossed the river, and made gardens
[Darkover] and now they can’t find them?
[Demosthenes] I wonder, is there a moral in this for us in terms of being hasty versus being thougtful and patient?
[miriel] and the ents only visited now and again
[laughing_gull] I believe they disappeared after an attack by sauron correct?
[miriel] and one day when they visited, they were gone
[Pete_R] They just wandered farter and farther away, gradualy, didn’t they?
[Xanaseb] well, in that case, I think the way in which it happened was so gradual and unsensed by them that they probably wouldn’t have changed that much as a result of it happening IMO.
[Darkover] well, maybe the Ents were *too* patient, and the Entwives got tired of it. I suppose we will never know.
[Jenniearcheo] The preferred habitat of the ents and their entwives grew more and more incompatible
[Xanaseb] ah, well maybe not then
[Erestel] Yes, laughing_gull. Their gardens in the Brown Lands were destroyed during a war, more than likely the War of the Last Alliance.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Jenniearcheo] Or they went shopping.
[Jenniearcheo] And they never buy anything unless it takes a loooong tiiiiime to buyyyyyy
[Demosthenes] Erestel: or when Sauron invaded Eriador. It’s a bit obscure there.
[miriel] no xana, it still must have been a shock, they took them for granted, and then suddenly they were gone
[Xanaseb] yeah, just realised that miri
[Darkover] If the Entwives left voluntarily, I’ll be that is what did it–I’ll bet the Ents took them for granted.
[Pete_R] I remember it was long ago �C in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea �C desire came over me to see Fimbrethil again. Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their
[Pete_R] and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some
[PippinForTheWin] I’m sorry- what book is all this mentioned in?
[Pete_R] Sorry, gDem, uess I’m getting ahead
[Darkover] Maybe they left, but what Pete just quoted kind of implies they all died/were killed off.
[laughing_gull] if you finish the quote it doesn’t
[Jenniearcheo] So they physically changed, as well.Turning brown and bent and parched. If ents can turn into trees . . . can entwives turn into something else?
[Erestel] @ PippinForTheWin: The Entwives story? Treebeard tells the story of the entwives in full in his chapter of The Two Towers.
[Demosthenes] I suspect Sauron’s minions destroyed them all. But there is nothing conclusive to back that up i think.
[Jenniearcheo] There is also a brief bit about their language (they liked Elvish) in the appendices
[PippinForTheWin] ok thanks wan’t sure if another book was involed Erestel
[Pete_R] Jennie, you know the song, “Willin’?” It has the lone, “Baked by the sun, driven by the snow.” That would have changed the entwives quite a bit, I think
[laughing_gull] “some said they had never seen them; some said tehy had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and other south”
[Darkover] Maybe we aren’t meant to know. Maybe Tolkien wanted to leave it a mystery.
[Pete_R] like Bombadil
[laughing_gull] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] jennie: if ents go treeish, entwives go … like fruit trees? like the orchards they made?
[Erestel] Or the unexplained magic influence over the Dead Marshes.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they became corn and were harvested
[Demosthenes] hah
[laughing_gull] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Jane Barleycorn?
[Darkover] What Jennie suggests may not be all that far out. Sounds like Changing Woman in Navaho mythology
[Jenniearcheo] It is ever my hope to be not far out
[Xanaseb] nice, indeed.
[michael336] Thoughtful and patient, yes, but not immobile.
[Darkover] although I admit, that probably wasn’t what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote about them.
[Demosthenes] Would they change so much that the ents would not recognise them?
[Jenniearcheo] Quite possibly
[miriel] possibly
[Darkover] I suspect so
[Jenniearcheo] That’s a way to lose them, I’d guess
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they didn’t want the ents to recognize them, so they changed so they could go wherever they wanted and not be seen by the ents
[laughing_gull] I’d like to think that “their eyes would still be the eyes of our own people” as Treebeard said
[PippinForTheWin] so they wouldn’t be taken for granted again?
[Erestel] That’s a cruel way to play hard-to-get, PippinForTheWin.
[PippinForTheWin] but effective
[Jenniearcheo] More likely they were groves of apple trees . . . and then the war started . . .
[Jenniearcheo] We know what Europe looked like after WWI
[laughing_gull]
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Pete_R] from Lettrers: “I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (S. A. 3429-2441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin.”
[Jenniearcheo] The battlefields seemed to inform both the Desolation of Smaug and the Dead Marshes
[Jenniearcheo] mhm
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: /if/ the entwives had also gone “treeish” then they would have found it hard to flee. perhaps.
[Jenniearcheo] True. And Treebeard doesn’t seem to think of this
[Demosthenes] and, that pretty much nails it down to the last alliance too.
[laughing_gull] what is interesting in all this to me is that it kind of shows how Tolkien didn’t necessarily know exactly what he was writing when he started with an idea
[Jenniearcheo] But then he hadn’t seen them for some time, and might not know they’d become treeish
[Pete_R] of their love of farmingthey seemed to be activ;ey
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they gave up when they started to be attacked and wanted to de as a beautiful fruit tree instead of an ent (which aren’t as beautiful)
[PippinForTheWin] *die, not de
[Darkover] now *that* sounds unduly fatalistic, PippinFTW
[PippinForTheWin] i know
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: that’s a constant in Tolkien (and true of a lot of writers. one’s writing has the capacity to surprise even oneself.)
[PippinForTheWin] but you never really know with Tolkien
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they found the ents attractive. In a treeish sort of way
[Jenniearcheo] Otherwise nobody’d ever have made any entings
[PippinForTheWin] true, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] but maybe they didn’t see themselves as beautiful?
[Pete_R] who, my last post was decimated. What I wanted to say was, Demosthenes, I kinda doubt that the Entwives would ever become treeish, because they seemed to be very actively incvolved in farming, and maintaining their surroundings. Just MHO
[Demosthenes] that’s a fair point too
[Darkover] I’m inclined to agree with Pete_R about that.
[Demosthenes] I tend to agree
[Jenniearcheo] True. But it’s perhaps the point that the planned, cultivated “nature” was more vulnerable to outside decimation than the wild natural forest
[Jenniearcheo] Although that, too, is now under threat.
[PippinForTheWin] possibly
[Demosthenes] I have another question along a slightly different tack for people to consider.
[Pete_R] Now, Pandora is playing “Gollum’s Song” from film 2
[Darkover] ask away, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] We’ve considered how Merry and Pippin change the ents, but what about the converse?
[Pete_R] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the “water”?
[Demosthenes] yes
[Darkover] well, the ent draughts make them a lot taller, for one thing
[Demosthenes] true! too much and the hobbits will be like elendil the tall.
[Jenniearcheo] It broadens their perspective on what constitutes “people”, I’d guess
[Pete_R] I’m sure they both gained confidence, having influenced the assault on Isengard
[PippinForTheWin] i think for the first time, M&P have a chance to be apart of something really big
[laughing_gull] I feel like the ents are some of the first beings who are very mature compared to the hobbits, and yet connect with them on a personal level
[Darkover] and perhaps their involvement with the Ents made Pippin, at least, realize he and Merry weren’t just baggage, but could make a difference in the war
[PippinForTheWin] and maybe now they’re not as hasty
[Jenniearcheo] Back in the Old Forest, they considered Old Man Willow to be an evil entity. Now they might see him as a cranky old guy
[Demosthenes] Does Treebeard’s chiding them for being “hasty folk” affect their thinking?
[Pete_R] They both had their first real chance to make a strong positive contribution to the war
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Tom saw him as a person, and they thought that was part of Tom’s weirdness
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: gmta.
[Darkover] Perhaps, even as the hobbits reminded the Ents that there was a lot to M-E, the Ents made the hobbits realize there was a lot more in the world than the Shire.
[Pete_R] haha–Hennie, does OMW have a cane to shake at whippersnappers?
[Darkover] Thanks, PippinFTW
[Pete_R] Jennie
[Jenniearcheo]
[Pete_R] It probably does affect their way of thinking, Demz, to some extent
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether it helps them “grow up
[Jenniearcheo] One of many things
[PippinForTheWin] i think also after the whole ordeal with the orcs, M&P have this almost parent-like figure who teaches them about wisdom
[sunshower] and in turn they teach too
[Pete_R] The whole experience of being abducted, and then, having to convince the ents to get involves help them to grow up, I guess
[michael336] Merry and Pippin for the first time were “on their own” rather than being “tag-alongs” with Frodo and the non-Hobbits. They move from being comic relief to significan characters and eventually warriors.
[PippinForTheWin] and they’re so confused about the world but they begin to understand how it works
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s one of the great contrasts — both the orcs and the ents offer hospitality … but very different types.
[Jenniearcheo] The entdraught sounds better than the medicine
[Demosthenes] It might be guinness.
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Jenniearcheo] Guiness is good for you
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] truth.
[PippinForTheWin] Merry and Pippin are just exposed to so many new species on this adventure, they don
[PippinForTheWin] they don’t know who to trust
[Jenniearcheo] Puts bark on your chest.
[Pete_R] I vote for Watney’s Red Barrel, Demz.
[LuthienXBeren] lol
[sunshower] ruff rff
[laughing_gull] I have to leave, this has been very cool, thank you all
[Jenniearcheo] Bye laughing_gull
[laughing_gull] bye
[LuthienXBeren] baii
[Pete_R] take care, laughing_gull
[sunshower] see ya laughing_gull
[Darkover] bye, laughing_gull
[PippinForTheWin] yeah everyone, i have to go bye, and thanks for chatting with me!!
[Darkover] bye, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] But the ents don’t seem to expect anything from merry and pippin. their hospitality is like the ultimate in altruism. no strings attached?
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[LuthienXBeren] aww, bye pip
[sunshower] bye PippinForTheWin
[Demosthenes] seeya PippinForTheWin!
[Erestel] Farewell, laughing_gull and PippinForTheWin!
[PippinForTheWin] hope to see you guys next week!
[Pete_R] adios, PippinForTheWin
[Jenniearcheo] True. he offers to drop them off at the border. Seeyaa
[Jenniearcheo] Although he welcomes the news.
[Jenniearcheo] Even though he can tell they’re holding back
[Demosthenes] And Quickbeam is the same.
[Demosthenes] We haven’t spoken much about QB yet
[Darkover] Well, at one point Treebeard admonished the hobbits for telling him too much about themselves, too soon, so he can hardly be upset if they do hold something back.
[Demosthenes] He didn’t want to reveal his true name
[Demosthenes] names and power.
[Jenniearcheo] Quickbeam’s story about the rowan trees was sad, but indicated that the entwives may have been a trifle ungrateful for their efforts to please them.
[Jenniearcheo] “meh.”
[miriel] that poem is one of my favourites
[miriel] Oh Orofarne Lassemissa Carnimirie
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, is there any more said about that, at all? Does someone’s true name become a vulnerability at some point? Is there an old example?
[miriel] Oh rowan fair
[sunshower] the song between ent/entwife?
[Jenniearcheo] No, later
[Demosthenes] jennie: not that i recall. but puma might know of one.
[Jenniearcheo] When Bregalad (Quickbeam) is singing them to sleep
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] the other one I know and love
[Jenniearcheo] A lament for the fallen rowan trees
[Pete_R] The poem is one f the saddest moments in the book, fpr me. Separate question: Would the Ents have the same eventual after-death destination as men and hobbits? Or some place similar of their own, since they are not just plant-life.
[LuthienXBeren] what about the ‘old forest’? does any one believe tolkien was insinuating something there, with the entwives?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, that is a nice one. The seasonal thing. But it underscores my point about their divergent habitats
[Darkover] indeed, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] They sort of seemed to think so, Pete. West was mentioned, and reunions
[Demosthenes] The rollingness of those entwords is really neat.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, that’s what got me thinking bout this
[Pete_R] yes, rolly words are boss.
[Darkover] I’m not sure the Ents would like the Undying Lands, though, assuming they would go there. If nothing ever changes, what would the Ents/Entwives have to tend and to cultivate?
[Erestel] The only instance I can think of that would imply vulnerability in revealing true names is Turin, who took different names to avoid his doomed fate. But as it was said to him (I can’t remember who said it. Finduilas?) “Your doom lies in yourself, not in your name.”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, so . . . moot in the end
[Jenniearcheo] Although lots of folks take multiple names in ME. Elves in particular. And a few Men
[sunshower] folks, weapons, places…
[Demosthenes] They seem long-lived but not immortal? I don’t know. that’s a curly one.
[Pete_R] true, Jennie but I think that Turin was the champeen of fake names
[Jenniearcheo] mm yes. Of course, some of that is underscoring the fact that time passes and people pass and the same place gets a new name
[Jenniearcheo] lol champeen
[Jenniearcheo] How would they get across the ocean? Strap themselves together into rafts??
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[Demosthenes] wood floats
[Erestel] Sea turtles.
[Pete_R] We never heard pf an ent dying of old age. Does that mean they are like elves, that they only die if killed, or if they allow themselves to die willfully, from a sorrow?
[Darkover] “Mom, she’s touching me!”
[Jenniearcheo] Driftwood. Great.
[Darkover] That’s something I hadn’t considered, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yeah i dunno. they seem effectively immortal.
[Pete_R] Jennie, they are walking trees. Wood floats.
[Demosthenes] is treeishness like the fading of the elves?
[michael336] Ah, the power of names….the Childlike Empress to Bastian: “Say my name!” And Fantasia was recreated. (Sorry for The Neverending Story reference….)
[Darkover] Maybe becoming tree-ish is the Entish equivalent of “fading.”
[Jenniearcheo] I think it’s akin to it
[Pete_R] Yeah, Treebeard is “Eldest, which makes him thousands of years old.
[Jenniearcheo] In that we don’t see many walking trees any more, nor yet elves
[Demosthenes] But the fading wasn’t a death, more of a exhausting weariness.
[sunshower] treebeard names an elder ent?
[Darkover] Have we just about finished our discussion? Because it is getting late here, and I am hungry.
[Demosthenes] “can’t cope, off to valinor”
[Jenniearcheo] He says there were three of them left from long ago
[Jenniearcheo] But one probably got cut down by Saruman, off west aways towards (or beyond?) Isengard
[sunshower] right Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we are nearly done. did we cover the outcome of the entmoot?
[Jenniearcheo] Have some entdraught, Darkover
[Pete_R] Nuh-uh, Jennie. Once when I was driving, a tree walked right in front of my car! It wasnt a Budweiser-induced hallucination, no matter what the judge said.
[Darkover] ha, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I see . . .
[sunshower] mmm hmm
[Darkover] OMW is out to get you, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] I believe they end at the first sight of Isenard, Dems
[Pete_R] Thank you, Darkover
[Demosthenes] We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
[Jenniearcheo] So yes, they march
[sunshower] (pretty good movie scene)
[Jenniearcheo] With doom we come! With doom we come!
[Demosthenes] key:
[Demosthenes] ‘Quickly?’ said Treebeard. ‘Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected. Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea.
[Erestel] “Night lies over Isengard.”
[Demosthenes] this has not happened in this forest since the wars of sauron and the men of the sea.
[Demosthenes] Also, “wizards ought to know better”
[sunshower] were the Ents involved in that????
[Pete_R] I recently met a couple in a cafe, He noticed my copy of UT, and asked about it. We talked about the books and films, and he said he was disappointed that the trees and ents didnt show up at Helm’s Deep in the movie. I told him about the EEs, and his eyes bugged out.
[Jenniearcheo] Did the forest once stretch all the way out over those mountains?
[Darkover] Well, Treebeard was right about that. The Istari were sent to make things better, not worse.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Aw, Pete. I hope he bought a copy
[Pete_R] The guy read Tolkien, his date reads Twiilight.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Treebeard may have known more about the Istari than he let on.
[Pete_R] me too, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I read both, Pete. Nyah
[Darkover] He was probably there when they arrived, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Also Gabaldon, Pratchett, and Patrick O’Brian
[sunshower] I think this chapter says he was, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Though switching around can strip your mental gears
[Pete_R] sunshower, I would guess that theor involvement was tp flee from it. fpr their lives
[Demosthenes] Oh, isn’t there a parallel with macbeth here too?
[Demosthenes] or am i mistaken?
[Erestel] How so?
[Pete_R] I’m sure, Dem’s, re: Istari
[Darkover] Yeah, it doesn’t immediately leap to mind
[Demosthenes] trees marching on … something?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, M&P weren’t the only ones holding some stuff back
[Pete_R] Jennie, you’re an under-nerd :-p
[Jenniearcheo] An under nerd?
[sunshower] narnia trees marched!
[sunshower]
[Darkover] Oh, yes, macbeth couldn’t fall until a certain forest moved
[Demosthenes] birnam wood
[Pete_R] Yes, Darkover, Treebeard would have been in ME fr many many many years before the wizards came
[Darkover] and the enemy’s men used the trees of that forest as camoflauge (sp?) so it looked as if the forest was moving
[michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Darkover] well, a marching forest would be really cool, provided it wasn’t marching on *you*
[Pete_R] uber-nerd for reading Tolkien and Twilight
[Demosthenes] Macbeth shall never vanquished be until
[Demosthenes] Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill
[Demosthenes] Shall come against him.
[Erestel] I remember something like that. Tolkien saw Macbeth, and he was disappointed when it turned out the walking forest was men with leaves in their hats, or something like that. I’m probably getting some details wrong.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, Uber. I see.
[Jenniearcheo] I’ve heard that too, about the wood
[Demosthenes] michael336: i read that also. and here we literally have a forest marching against its opressor. Don’t mess with nature is the lesson.
[Pete_R] By Macbeth, Dems, are you referring to the Burnham (sp?) Wood?
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . don’t mess with wild untouched still strong nature. Cultivated nature is more vulnerable
[michael336] There
[Demosthenes] Yes pete.
[michael336] There’s a doctoral thesis for you: The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien’s rewriting of Shakespeare.
[Jenniearcheo] Seek ye out Mythgard Institute, michael336. They offer a Masters
[Demosthenes] Interesting little parallel.
[Demosthenes] Hooom, any final points?
[Pete_R] Did I read the Tolkien was disappointed that he never got to see the woods move in the play, so he wrote bout the Ents? Or was it about PJ, making the films?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Hooom
[Darkover] No, I think that’s about it
[Darkover] This has been interesting, as usual
[michael336] Jennie, I would LOVE to get a master’s from there! I’m waiting until they have accreditation.
[Demosthenes] pete: no, that is the story i’ve heard too. michael336 mentioned hearing it also.
[Erestel] I only remembered the parallel between the Witch-king and Macbeth where no living man and no man of woman born could slay them, respectively, and both were slain by loopholes (a woman and a man birthed via C-section).
[Pete_R] So, we’re at The Ent…The End, I mean?
[Demosthenes] Sorry it was a bit choppy at the start. I took a little while to wake up.
[Jenniearcheo] They say that by the time anyone has the requirements met, they’ll have accreditation. I’m only sorry I can’t afford the pittance yet
[Pete_R] okay, Demz. I am such a lousy typist that I miss a lot of posts, with my eyes glued to the keyboard
[Demosthenes] humph
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: [09:27] [michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Pete_R] K, thx.
[Demosthenes] Okay, next weekend. Earendil and Elwing?
[Darkover] Sounds good. See you all then.
[Jenniearcheo] Byee
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Demosthenes] thanks to everyone for a great chat.
Session Close: Sun Apr 21 09:43:08 2013

In celebration of Earth Day, here is a collection of Middle-earth moments in a special BS (Book Spoiler) post in the Main Discussion Board… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

[TIME and BS entries are maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and are in no way affiliated with <a href="http://www.tolkien-ent.com/">Tolkien Enterprises</a> or the Tolkien Estate. Copyrights and trademarks for the books from which dates and short quotes are taken are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html">fair use</a> clause of the <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/">Copyright Law.</a>]

“…the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.” Appendix B, Lord of the Rings.

That last sentence has often puzzled; people wonder exactly how Galadriel might have accomplished such a task. More, why is she doing now what ought to have been accomplished when the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur years before?

The parallels with Luthien’s destruction of Tol-in-Gaurhoth

Conveniently, the tale of Beren and Lúthien offers some guidance: after Lúthien rescues Beren from the captivity of Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, she puts forth her power to accomplish exactly the same feat.

“Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moon light, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron.” Of Beren and Lúthien, The Silmarillion.

The trick is that in this instance Lúthien’s power derives from the mastery of the tower that she had just wrenched from the defeated Sauron.

Christopher Tolkien confirms as much in his commentary on the Tale of Tinúviel in the second Book of Lost Tales. CJRT draws a clear thread from the Silmarillion version back to the proto-tale which describes how Tinúviel and Huan, the Captain of Dogs, extract from Tevildo the Lord of Cats (a kind of proto-Sauron) the words of magic that bind the stones of Tevildo’s tower together. Tinúviel then uses these words to reduce the fortress to rubble.

“So it was that in the end that weariness and hunger and fear prevailed upon that proud cat, a prince in the service of Melko, to reveal … the spell that Melko had entrusted to him; and those were the words of magic whereby the stones of his evil house were held together.” The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, The Tale of Tinúviel.

CJRT also adds:

“…since my father did not actually say there (in the Silmarillion) that Sauron told Lúthien what the words were, only that he ‘yielded himself’, one may miss the significance of what happened”. The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, The Tale of Tinúviel.

Following this line of logic, I believe it’s not entirely out of the question that in defeating the forces of Dol Guldur, Galadriel compelled a similar mastery from Sauron’s chosen lieutenant. Then, with the secrets of Dol Guldur in hand, she was able to destroy it in a way that the White council was unable to accomplish in TA 2941.

Next weekend, we’ll be discussing the second of the three great unions of elves and humans: Idril and Tuor.

Session Start: Sun Apr 07 07:17:43 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire

[Demosthenes] okay. let’s begin? others can catch up.
[Puma] well….to start with.in general i consider this to be pippins chapter….but also a good look at orc culture
[Demosthenes] I’ve always thought that as much as the chapter is about Merry and Pippin, it’s the orcs who are kinda the stars here?
[Demosthenes] puma: i guess those two points are related
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] I wonder why the orcs really come through
[Susanita] hey pete
[Demosthenes] . ‘Lie quiet, or I’ll tickle you with this,’ he hissed. ‘Don’t draw attention to yourself, or I may forget my orders. Curse the Isengarders! Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai’:
[Puma] the 3 groups of orcs came for various reasons
[lini_b] pippin shows himself to be a lot more than just a frivolous kid on a lark
[Pete_away] Hoy, Susanita, how are you?
[Susanita] easy for you to say
[Demosthenes] There’s a real … life to them?
[Jenniearcheo] How much orc speech do we get? Is this it in the book?
[Demosthenes] not a lot jennie
[miriel] love the use of untranslated black speech
[Puma] this was jrr’s 1st real attemp to show orc culture
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from what’s on the ring, of course
[Demosthenes] there’s also “snaga” meaning slave
[Demosthenes] that’s later in ROTK
[Jenniearcheo] The fact that the apparent tribes couldn’t speak each other’s language was interesting
[Erestel] Gandalf reveals that “Ghash” is “fire” in the Black Speech, but that’s all I know.
[miriel] it is used in several places, dems
[Puma] no.snaga is in this chapter also
[miriel] snaga
[Darkover] Greetings, all! Sorry to be late.
[Demosthenes] oh, it is?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] skai is, i think, a name.
[miriel] I know, because I listed it as a name by mistake
[Darkover] Hiya, Jennie!
[miriel] Darkover
[Demosthenes] this is the final translation of that phrase: “Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth.
[Demosthenes] Dung-heap. Skai!”.
[miriel] puma
[miriel] Skai! might be a curse
[Demosthenes] (from parma eldalamberon 17)
[Puma] and jrr said he cleaned up the translation
[Darkover] “Snaga” isn’t exactly a name, as I recall, I think it meant “slave,” and was a form of address from a more powerful orc to a weaker.
[Puma] correct
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think i read that via AFT/RABT too
[miriel] indeed, I lost two “named” characteres when I discovered it
[Demosthenes] probably in their FAQ
[Puma] also.in lotr jrr gives many orcs names….and they interact….he had never done that be4
[Jenniearcheo] Orcs have an FAQ?
[Elemmire]
[Erestel] “I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ‘ghash’: that is ‘fire’.” Spoken by Gandalf after he left the Chamber of Mazarbul before the Balrog arrived.
[Elemmire] there isn’t really that much Black Speech in lotr
[Elemmire] translated
[Darkover] Saruman also apparently got his nickname “Sharkey,” from the Orcish “sharku,” “old man.”
[Demosthenes] jennie is right. orcs are really tribal, and this shows through in the language. I guess Tolkien would have thought that a very natural way that such tribalness would have exhibited itself.
[Demosthenes] slang … dialest variations
[Demosthenes] dialect*
[Demosthenes] and having to converse through common
[Puma] yes.they needed westron to talk tribe to tribe
[Demosthenes] to understand each other
[Demosthenes] a kind of lingua franca
[Elemmire] hmm, id forgotten that. its an interesting point
[Susanita] that was interesting to me
[Darkover] Well, also, Sam had to be able to understand them–in a later chapter–and he was able to do so because the orcs were speaking a form of the Common Tongue
[Darkover] because so many different tribes were present
[Puma] well……sam had the ring then
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! it makes it easier for both tolkien and us too. at a mechanical level.
[Puma] so different case
[Darkover] Right, the reader needed to understand them, too!
[miriel] tolkien never clearly states it, though, that it is just the ring, and not common
[Puma] jrr at times did not care if we understood
[Demosthenes] Do you guys agree that Tolkien’s uruks — as we see them here — are very lively and vivid?
[Jenniearcheo] The ring is why Bilbo can understand the spiders, yes?
[Darkover] I certainly agree, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] They’re certainly tough. Tougher than the smaller orcs they see as “maggots”
[Darkover] In this chapter, for the first time IMO, they seem like people–ugly, mean, vicious, debased people, but still people
[Puma] only the isengard uruks…although grishnakh was likely a mordor uruk
[miriel] I guess so, Jenniearcheo. But then, what about Shelob?
[Jenniearcheo] they do value the Moria orcs’ being able to see in the dark, though
[Susanita] and the bit about running in daylight
[Jenniearcheo] She wasn’t chatty
[Demosthenes] Why? Is it something in the prose? is it because the whole chapter is a power-play between the orc factions? is it something else?
[miriel] lol jennie
[Susanita] it sinks in how much Saruman means to be a usurper
[Puma] it is that….and we see pippin is clever….and smart…b4 that he had not been much use
[Darkover] Maybe it is because they *do* seem to be part of tribes, to have some sense–at least, among the Uruks–of duty, and they show a lot of emotion
[miriel] I think he does a great work of shoving how split and divided and unloyal the “dark side” is
[Darkover] all that seems to make them more like people, rather than cardboard villains
[Darkover] That too, Miriel, you’re quite right
[Demosthenes] miriel: it is very different to the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Underscored, miriel, by the two in Mordor who were going to “go someplace quiet and set up” something, but then fell to fighting
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. These Orcs may seem like people, but that doesn’t mean they are decent or nice people.
[Demosthenes] it reminds me of a line from one of Mel Brooks’ movies “all for one, and each man for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] Not very nice, at all, precious
[Puma] orc culture is a debased one
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes, very true
[Demosthenes] (that’s pretty much orcs to a T)
[Elemmire] yep
[Darkover] Quite so, Puma–and indeed, they only exist because long ago, they were debased Elves–and maybe Men
[Demosthenes] puma: on the other hand, it also makes me think of Gandalf’s line: “for myself, i pity even his [Sauron's] slaves”
[Demosthenes] and i think Gandalf meant orcs as well there
[Puma] but aragorn was wrong on 1 guess….he did not think orcs would be told of ring….but it seems ugluk and grishnakh knew of it
[Darkover] I can kind of understand Gandalf’s attitude, Demosthenes. Orcs never had much choice to be other than what they were.
[Elemmire] yep. you do kinda feel sorry for the orcs being bulllied
[Demosthenes] Because I think here we see simultaneously that the orcs have something .. .and yet nothing at the same time.
[Asmodean] they did not know of the ring i think
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be defeated.
[Susanita] they knew of SOMETHING
[Asmodean] yeah
[Susanita] not necessarily the Ring
[Darkover] Interesting observation, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yep
[Puma] the war is won with pity….gandalf is the embodiment of that
[Darkover] I don’t feel too sorry for the bullied orcs, Elemmire, because they would unhesitatingly bully others if they could.
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin tests Grishnakh and it does seem he recognizes “Gollum” and “precious”
[Demosthenes] They have energy … they have a great lust for life … you see it in how they interact .. yet they are unable to do anything positive with it.
[Demosthenes] maybe
[miriel] indeed, so he must have had info
[Darkover] The war is won with courage, determination, and a certain amount of fighting and killing, too, Puma. Let’s not forget *that.*
[Elemmire] fair enough. but we dont like being bullied
[Puma] but pity was the key
[Jessy] I heard somewhere, though haven’t read the original, that in one of his letters, Tolkien expressed an interest in making the orcs less doomed to evil
[Elemmire] it isn’t really the orcs fault
[Puma] well…..he wrote many versions of orc origins
[Jenniearcheo] It seems that the orcs have little in the way of culture. In social rules, beyond what the boss orders
[Darkover] That sounds like Tolkien, Jessy, because as a devout Catholic, he would have had problems believing anyone was bad from the very beginning
[Darkover] That sounds about right, jennie
[Puma] and they were an example of morgoths power….jrr said maybe the worst of morgoths perversions
[Erestel] That belief is specifically stated by Elrond as well, Darkover. Something along the lines of “Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think i’d agree with that. they make food and drink of a sort. they make crude weapons. do they make songs? do they write? what is orc downtime?
[Darkover] Right, Erestel
[Elemmire] yep jennie. except when there are too msny bosses
[Puma] i doubt that they write
[Puma] but they do sing
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the orcs write, or make any songs worth listening to
[Darkover] People that debased don’t usually have a lot of creativity
[Elemmire] the orcs are less complex than the goblins. we know that they are good at making things
[Erestel] Down, down, to Goblin Town! You go, my lad!
[Demosthenes] maybe they make dubstep
[miriel] they could write curses and stuff
[Darkover] unless it comes to different methods of killing and torture
[miriel] but books, unlikely
[Puma] orcs=goblins….they are the same thing
[Jenniearcheo] Well, the goblins in The Hobbit can, on occasion, be persuaded to sing
[Susanita] orc singing like vogon poetry?
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] But it’s all “Crack snap the black crack” sort of thing
[Darkover] Not quite, I think, Puma. I could be wrong, but
[Jessy] Susanita: love it!
[Jenniearcheo] Singing about how nice it’ll be to torture their victims
[Puma] quite Darkover
[miriel] LoL Susanita
[Elemmire] lots of people do that jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh true. that had a kind of charm … but i maintain that the writer of the hobbit is an unreliable narrator prone to exaggeration.
[Darkover] I always got the impression goblins were weaker, more inclined to fear daylight, less hardy and not as good at fighting, as orcs.
[Puma] goblin is the hobbit word for orc
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Darkover] Maybe goblins are descended from Men, and orcs from Elves. Just a thought
[Puma] noooooooo
[Elemmire] well, the goblins in the hobbit are different
[Demosthenes] and the account of the hobbit is not entirely to be trusted as a result
[Puma] no they are not
[Elemmire] cos they are skilled
[Elemmire] and can make stuff
[Jenniearcheo] I think goblins are basically orcs, but the ones from “the north” were from caverns and better at seeing in the dark.
[Erestel] Goblins and orcs are the same. Azog is called a goblin in The Hobbit and a great orc in The Lord of the Rings. Orcs come in many shapes and sizes, though.
[Puma] but i am just going by what jrr himself said….you dont have to believe jrr if you dont want to
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Elemmire] a kind of orc then
[Jenniearcheo] He contradicts himself from time to time. Humans are allowed this luxury
[Elfriend] I always thought that Goblins were a weaker, perhaps younger form of Orc.
[Elemmire] ?
[lini_b] me too Elfriend
[miriel] weaker, yes, but younger? I do not know
[Susanita] oh hey Elfriend
[Puma] the only truely superior orcs in jrr were baldogs
[Elfriend] Hello
[Demosthenes] I also wonder at the great endurance of the orcs. The Three Hunters as we saw travelled 130 miles in four days. That’s an effort worthy of a roman legionary. These orcs go farther — much farther in the same time.
[Elemmire] baldogs?
[Jessy] Jenniearcheo: in Tolkien, aren’t contradictions just another word for re-write?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did a deal of ret-conning
[Darkover] If you mean “balrogs,” Puma, they weren’t orcs at all, but some kind of demon
[Erestel] I dunno about baldogs. Balrogs were corrupt Maia (lesser gods), not orcs.
[Elemmire] werent balrogs maia?
[Puma] baldogs….minor maia in orc form
[Elfriend] Food chain Goblins-Orcs-Uruk Hai
[Puma] balrogs are not baldogs
[Jenniearcheo] I wouldn’t get a bald dog. Unless I hated pet hair
[Darkover] Well, as detailed as Tolkien’s writings were, it seems improbable he wouldn’t make the occasional error
[Elemmire] what are baldongs
[Elemmire] baldogs
[Susanita] chihuahuas are bald
[Elemmire] even
[Elemmire] lol susa
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, but they just yap
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway.
[Susanita] they want Taco Bell
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . Goblins
[Puma] and orcs were all orcs….they varied in size and strenght
[Puma] uruk-hai is translated orc people
[Jenniearcheo] So the Uruks overtake the Mordor orcs on the run
[Elemmire] theyre stronger
[Elemmire] and can run in daylight
[Darkover] and don’t fear daylight
[Jenniearcheo] What was I reading? Some of the Mordor orcs run off and then come back?
[Puma] the mordor orc did not do well in the sun.as with many orcs
[Susanita] and there were Orcs from Moria too?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[Demosthenes] Three groups of orcs
[Susanita] Orcapalooza
[Demosthenes] three factions
[Puma] i meant the moria orcs
[Jenniearcheo] It sounded like the Moria orcs didn’t like the idea of running in the daylight, but Ugluk wasn’t taking a vote
[Elemmire] nope
[Demosthenes] they wilt
[Puma] the uruks did not like the sun either….but they could tolerate it
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin really comes into his own in this chapter. For the first time.
[Demosthenes] a bit like sunflowers
[Susanita] hi Baumbart
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[Darkover] Hello, Baumbart
[Elemmire] hmm. this is where i start to like Pippin
[Jenniearcheo] hello Baumbart
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah … which is interesting considering he has his own self-doubt at the start of the chapter
[Demosthenes] let me find the quote
[Darkover] Pippin does seem to become a real member of the Fellowship in this chapter
[Demosthenes] He could not answer the questions. He felt cold and sick. ‘I wish Gandalf had never persuaded Elrond to let us come,’ he thought. ‘What good have I been? Just a nuisance: a passenger, a piece of luggage. And now I have been stolen and I am just a piece of luggage for the Orcs.
[Demosthenes] Bold hard halfling, or piece of luggage?
[Puma] other than pippins affability we have not seen his talents b4
[Elemmire] yeah. but he’s more useful that merry
[miriel] maybe that very insight is what makes him likeable
[Demosthenes] then this:
[Darkover] I think Pippin himself didn’t know he had talents, until this quest
[Demosthenes] I hope Strider or someone will come and claim us! But ought I to hope for it? Won’t that throw out all the plans? I wish I could get free!’
[Elemmire] merry is probably the least develpoed hobbit
[miriel] before it, he is just annoying
[Demosthenes]  But ought I to hope for it?
[Darkover] That is a very mature thought on Pippin’s part
[Elemmire] he appreciates how important the ring quest is
[miriel] indeed, very self-sacrificing there
[Puma] merry was out cold….he had been injured fighting…pippin had not fought orcs at amon hen
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. He also takes the initiative a couple of times
[Jenniearcheo] With the pin, the hand binding, the fleeing
[lini_b] it’s no longer just a silly adventure – he starts to grow up
[Jenniearcheo] And, of course, the lembas
[Elemmire] yep
[Demosthenes] jennie: is that why he takes the initiative do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] I think for the first time he had no leader
[Demosthenes] this realisation about the importance of the quest?
[Jenniearcheo] And even Merry was out cold. He was forced to think on his feet, on his own, perhaps for the first time ever
[Jessy] When Pippin runs out to drop his leaf broach, it was brave, but do you think it useful?
[Elemmire] he realises that he probably has to get out of this himself
[Jenniearcheo] He was a rich kid, a bit spoilt. Probably with servants his whole life
[Pete_away] Pippin? This was the first time that he wasn’t subservient to everyone else
[Darkover] It turned out that it was, Jessy, and it was something to do, so he did it
[Puma] at teh beginning of the chapter….we get out last live glimpse of boromir….in his finest moment….and the orcs say…they were told to kill all but halflings….but due to boromir….they fled b4 other help arrived…not giving orcs chance to search out more
[Darkover] I think “subservient” is a bit harsh, Pete. Maybe as the youngest, Pip was just used to letting others lead the way.
[Darkover] And now Pippin had to rely on himself, so he showed some initiative
[Jessy] But it only shows that the hobbits were still alive. Aragorn would have followed them either way.
[Puma] so we saw for the last time….how important boromir was
[Demosthenes] Or as Aragorn speculated, do they think they have their prey?
[Demosthenes] oh .. it’s hobbits. let’s went.
* Pete_away is now known as Pete-DOH
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin could tell that their footprints were being trampled by . . . iron? shoes
[Puma] yes.iron shoes
[Darkover] That probably had a lot to do with it, Demosthenes. Apparently no one told them how *many* halflings there were.
[Jenniearcheo] ty
[Puma] oh.i think they knew
[Demosthenes] ‘Orders.’ said a third voice in a deep growl. ‘Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That’s my orders.’
[Puma] there were orc spies all along the anduin
[miriel] the orcs must be extremely well trained if they can run with iron shoes
[Jenniearcheo] These were the only hobbits they found
[Darkover] If they knew, puma, why wasn’t anyone saying; “We only have two, better find where the other two went”
[Puma] the orcs knew how many were in the fellowship
[miriel] very simple orders, do you think it is due to lack of language-knowledge, or lack of IQ?
[lini_b] they’re strong not bright
[Puma] because they had paid such a great price in death from boromir
[Asmodean] they couldn’t have known
[Puma] boromir killed more than 20
[Darkover] Again, did they? And even if they knew how many people were in the fellowship, that doesn’t mean the orcs knew how many were hobbits.
* Asmodean is now known as lasak
[Demosthenes] They have street-smarts at least
[Elemmire] Piipin is so worried that the men of Rohan won’t know they are hobbits. So, how do the orcs/uruk-hai know?
[Puma] so after they paid the death price.they assumed!!!!!!
[Puma] and we all know what happens when you assume
[Pete-DOH] The must have hear from Saruman, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] If they knew there were two missing hobbits, wouldn’t they have sent a squad to search for them?
[Darkover] The orcs knew halflings when they saw them, and indeed had specific orders about them.
* lorienslady is now known as lori_dinner
[Elfriend] Being an Orc, I’d imagine one would learn quickly
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] I didn’t think the Rohirrim even saw the halflings.
[Puma] its a complex point
[Darkover] The Rohirrim were killing right and left, and didn’t know about the prisoners. It would have been easy for the hobbits to be killed by mistake, Elmmire
[Pete-DOH] No, Dems, it was dark, rght?
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire
[Puma] well.not so easy………the cloaks
[Demosthenes] dark, and they had those lorien cloaks to boot.
[lini_b] the rohirrim didnt believe the legends of halflings
[Jenniearcheo] The hobbits were in the woods by the time the rohirrim attacked
[Puma] m and p ran right up to the orcs b4 they were seen
[Pete-DOH] By a horse with great eyesight avoided pippin
[Jenniearcheo] or some sense
[Pete-DOH] Remember Jennie that Pippin almost got stomped on
[Demosthenes] Horses will try to avoid running over ppl iirc.
[Demosthenes] So that makes sense.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, but the rider didn’t see him
[Puma] this was something the movies never showed….how many times the cloaks worked for the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Horses, perhaps, have an innate sense
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the black gate
[Pete-DOH] Right, Puma, just once in the ee of ROTK
[Demosthenes] i like this:
[Puma] that 1 time
[Demosthenes] ‘Hullo, Pippin!’ he said. ‘So you’ve come on this little expedition, too? Where do we get bed and breakfast?’
[Pete-DOH] Merry was great
[Darkover] Pippin himself was thinking that he and Merry might be killed, before the attackers of the orcs knew they were there.
[Puma] shows even in the worst conditions….merry has a good attitude
[Jenniearcheo] Merry with a brown scar all his days
[Demosthenes] very droll; very dry humour.
[Pete-DOH] movie aside–Dom and Billy were casting genius
[Jessy] Demosthenes: That’s one of my favorite lines in the whole book!
[Susanita] they didn’t have their guide book to B&Bs in Middle Earth
[Puma] now.dom and billy look nothing like hobbits
[Jenniearcheo] They used peach juice and cola syrup for the orc draught. It made Dom gag
[Darkover] And Pippin wished he had paid better attention at Rivendell, but business had always seemed to be in more capable hands. Another sign that he is growing up, coming into his own.
[Pete-DOH] yummy
[Darkover] Wouldn’t it make *you* gag, Jennie?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Darkover
[Puma] but merry had studied the maps
[lini_b] but merry was paying attention
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Very likely
[Jenniearcheo] But Merry was inconveniently unconscious
[Puma] so point is.they are better together than separate….
[Elemmire] pippin really does start to grow up in this chapter
[Puma] only later when they have grown can they operate apart
[Jenniearcheo] Generally true
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gotta look out for himself now. no-one’s going to hold his hand for him.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s almost as if Pippin wakes up in this chapter. As though he’s been dozing until now
[Demosthenes] well, the orcs kinda do for a bit, but that’s not at all pleasant.
[PippinForTheWin] like he realizes now what hes gotten himself in to
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well phrased
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: it’s not a hobbit walking party.
[Elfriend] Again I hear Elronds words “we will trust to a friendship rather than great wisdom.”
[Elemmire] hmm-merry and pip need their frienship
[Elemmire] friendship
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: that’s a good thought.
[Elemmire] even
[Darkover] Friendship is a big part of LotR
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] it is
[PippinForTheWin] its what lotr is all about
[Demosthenes] notice that pippin feels reassured when he sees merry is with him.
[Demosthenes] in a “we’re all in this together” kind of way
[PippinForTheWin] if frodo and sam werent friends, what ould happen?
[Elemmire] they are better together
[Elemmire] both pairs of them
[Puma] sam was frodos servant
[Jenniearcheo] Better together, and definitely better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] better than orc drink?
[PippinForTheWin] when in the movie pippin leaves with gandalf to go to minas tirith you feel the pain
[Elemmire] anyone’s better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] i wonder what the orc drink was
[Jenniearcheo] More whoelsome
[Jenniearcheo] Best not to know
[Demosthenes] cheap gin? fosters?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[lini_b] lol Demosthenes
[Elemmire] something unpleasant
[Pete-DOH] dirty water, alcohol, and prune juice
[Demosthenes] some sort of moonshine i guess
[Puma] an energy drink….they sell them all over now
[Elemmire] lol
[Demosthenes] lol
[Darkover] but effective, whatever it was
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that Merry was going to try to drink from the River but Pippin was in charge and said, “Not here, the banks are too steep. Forward now!”
[Elfriend] All this time they have been selling the UK Orc beer.. how very clever of them.
[Pete-DOH] yes, Jennie, role reversal
[lini_b] i wouldn’t mind a bit – my house is a mess i need energy
[Jenniearcheo] At least for now
[Demosthenes] Seizing him roughly Uglúk pulled him into a sitting position, and tore the bandage off his head. Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box. Merry cried out and struggled wildly.
[Demosthenes] The Orcs clapped and hooted. ‘Can’t take his medicine,’ they jeered. ‘Doesn’t know what’s good for him. Ai! We shall have some fun later.’
[Elemmire] isn’t pip the youngest of all the hobbits?
[Puma] but then they will switch and merry will be in charge
[Demosthenes] same with the orc medicine.
[Darkover] He is, Elemmire
[Puma] yes.pip is youngest
[PippinForTheWin] yeah hes the youngest
[Darkover] Hardly more than a boy by hobbit standards
[PippinForTheWin] the most innocent
[Elemmire] so he really is doing well
[Erestel] Yup, the youngest of the four. He hadn’t come of age when he joined the group.
[Darkover] I would say so. He’s not quite the foolish hobbit he was portrayed as in the movies.
[Elemmire] nope
[Puma] but remember…….merry and pippin were form the 2 great power wielding shire families….as close to royalty as shire has
[Puma] so not ordinary hobbits
[Pete-DOH] Pippin has only one real bonehead move left, right? The palantir
[Jenniearcheo] Billy said he felt Pippin didn’t feel “part of the story” until the Palantir incident
[Demosthenes] I noted that even Pippin didn’t really know why he and merry had run off at Parth Galen.
[Elemmire] yep, i can see that
[Darkover] Doesn’t mean they would necessarily have risen to the occasion, Puma. Birth isn’t everything, even in M-E
[Puma] billie was wrong as usual
[Demosthenes] they just … did.
[Jenniearcheo] I noticed that, Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting
[Demosthenes] a bit like Boromir’s madness
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think he was wrong, Puma
[Elemmire] no me neither puma
[Demosthenes] is there a link?
[Demosthenes] or maybe not?
[Jenniearcheo] Do you attribute that to . . . Illuvatar?
[Demosthenes] Of course: he and Merry had run off into the woods. What had come over them? Why had they dashed off like that, taking no notice of old Strider?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed to be off by themselves, because they needed to be captured to get the Ents moving
[Puma] they were better educated and more worldly than most hobits…they had a better chance
[Erestel] It was the will of the Force.
[PippinForTheWin] illuvatar? we’re entering silmarillion territory now
[Puma] of course there is free will
[Elemmire] or panic
[Jenniearcheo] If we’re supposing that there’s an unseen hand at work, it’s either Illuvatar or Sauron. I’d rather hope it were the former
[Demosthenes] panicatthedisc…errr..greensward
[Darkover] Erestel, I think JRR would wince at providence/God being referred to as “the Force”
[Pete-DOH] Iluvatar, or the Valar, maybe
[laughing_gull] I was gonna say, I think irrational reasons, but also for plot reasons
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr……but not in this instance
[Jenniearcheo] Same force that led Frodo to the chair
[Pete-DOH] Darkover, you don’t think the professor would like Star Wars?
[Elemmire] where are the valar active in lotr ouma?
[Elemmire] puma
[Elemmire] even
[Demosthenes] More seriously, Aragorn said that a force was slowing them and implied it was Saruman. Maybe a similar influence was working on the Fellowship at Parth Galen?
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s reaching.
[PippinForTheWin] not the valar, but the Maiar maybe?
[Puma] that is another convo.but many times
[Erestel] Yeah, he probably would. At least Iluvatar isn’t associated with medichlorians.
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t, Pete. I think Tolkien would find good and evil too muddled in Star Wars for his beliefs.
[Elemmire] midi
[Darkover] Just my opinion.
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn assumed that things were “ill” because he didn’t realize their neccessity
[Pete-DOH] Areed, Darkover. Don’t think he would even consider atching it
[Puma] good and evil were very muddled in jrr
[Elemmire] really puma
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Puma?
[Puma] elves had done great evils
[Darkover] It doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
[PippinForTheWin] and great goods
[laughing_gull] I don’t think that makes good and evil muddles
[laughing_gull] *muddled
[Jenniearcheo] elficide
[PippinForTheWin] every race has had some instance of good and evil
[laughing_gull] Humans do good and evil too, in all the great stories
[Elemmire] that was silmarillion though.
[Darkover] Elves made big mistakes, Puma, as did other races, but that isn’t the same as good and evil being muddled.
[Puma] good and evil are not black and white in lotr….it is way deeper than that
[Elemmire] good and evil are always grey
[Darkover] And in LotR, Aragorn points out that good and evil are not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves.
[PippinForTheWin] sometimes its obvious, but the reasons why go very deep
[Pete-DOH] Very little signs of good in the orcs, PippinForTheWin, but there is a trace
[Jenniearcheo] Good and evil are cultural constructs, but . . ./anthropologist
[Elemmire] like? pete
[Puma] i am well aware of what aragorn said
[lini_b] like tryig to heal merrys wound Elemmire
[Darkover] Indeed, a lot of readers complain that Tolkien’s writings show right and wrong, good and evil, as being too black and white.
[Puma] maybe a better word would have been morality
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I’m not sure that was a charitable act
[Elemmire] wasnt that just practicality though pete
[Darkover] Well, don’t be offended. You didn’t act like it, Puma
[Demosthenes] Pete-DOH: is that act derived from utility?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed Merry running
[Pete-DOH] The two orcs in ordor who talked about going off together to set up their own operation. A tiny bit of camaraderie, Elemmire, but it didn’t last long.
[laughing_gull] I agree with Jennie
[PippinForTheWin] the instances themselves are black and white. but the real reasons, the real meanings behind some actions go really deep
[Puma] readers who say good and evil are black and white in jrr….have only seen the surface….and have not looked at the words
[Pete-DOH] Dems, yu talkong about the two orcs? Yes, to a large degree
[Erestel] The Silmarillion has many more grey characters. Turin, Maedhros, Maeglin, etc.
[Demosthenes] pete: yah. they do things to gain something … not through selflessness.
[Elemmire] feanor erestel
[Elemmire] v grey
[Puma] all members of the fellowship have grey areas….
[Puma] and if that were topic we could discuss it
[Demosthenes] Which kinda relates to my earlier point that the orcs have a great lust for life … and never do much that’s positive with it.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, not much of a culture
[Darkover] In this chapter, Grishnakh threatened to rat out his fellow orcs. Typical bad behavior.
[Puma] morgoth designed orcs that way
[Pete-DOH] True, Dems, that’s why I said a very little example–just of two orcs, actually talking about working together. That’s all I got.
[Darkover] Not much of a culture, Jennie, because orcs belong to a dog-eat-dog society
[PippinForTheWin] and i guess orcs are pretty loyal to sauron?
[Elemmire] v true Demosthenes
[Puma] not really
[Jenniearcheo] However, it’s possible that they simply felt that they’d prefer a nice boss-free life, and it would be mutually beneficial
[laughing_gull] I think they are enslaved to sauron?
[Darkover] out of fear, I imagine, PippinFTW
[Puma] orcs only have 1 master.morgoth
[PippinForTheWin] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] So we have a contrast: the orcs scarmbling over each other to get to the top of the pile … and merry and pippin working together to achieve more than their individual sum.
[Elemmire] teamwork!
[Elemmire] yay
[Darkover] Who at the time of LotR, is in the Void, puma. Some orcs reported to Saruman, some to Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting. Yes
[Demosthenes] together they are greater than the sum of their individual parts
[Jenniearcheo] And end up winning
[Elemmire] you get that a lot Demosthenes
[Puma] but none were totally loyal to either darkover
[Darkover] Right, demosthenes. Orcs, being bad, are incapable of cooperating with each other for selfless reasons.
[PippinForTheWin] once again shows how friendship prevails
[Jenniearcheo] The Rohirrim are better at teamwork, too
[Elemmire] most people are
[Jenniearcheo] the only time the orcs rally is at the end, with a wedge. But they get run down because there are now too few
[Darkover] I’m not sure orcs were ever *totally* loyal to anyone, Puma–and being punished if they weren’t had a lot to do with their loyalty
[Demosthenes] Orc teamwork occurs only vias a leader ruling through fear
[Elemmire] yup
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “subservient” rather than “loyal”
[Demosthenes] cf: ugluk removing heads
[Elfriend] I think there is an innocence to Hobbits, especially in the fellowship that helps them make it through nigh insurmountable hurdles.
[Demosthenes] and it seems a temporary alliance at best.
[Darkover] Although you must admit, Ugluk’s form of discipline is effective!
[Elemmire] yep darkover but it wont last
[Jenniearcheo] To a point
[Demosthenes] reminds me of the orc babysitter demotivator
[Darkover] Elfriend, I agree. IMO, Hobbits are the most cooperative of all the peoples of M-e
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] That was a great photo
[Pete-DOH] eliminate your enemies, so you wont have enemies
[Darkover] But then, I believe, Pete, the orcs would just fall on each other.
[Demosthenes] i have a different question that we probably ought to consider:
[Elemmire] ok
[Demosthenes] How much does Grishnakh know exactly?
[Pete-DOH] or high-tail it out of there as soon as they can, like they did when Sauron fell, darkover
[Elemmire] lots. nothing.
[Elfriend] Orc Cheiftains use lash and force to achieve goals, Hobbits use friendship.
[Darkover] Hmm, never thought about that before, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (about the fellowship and the in particular the Ring)
[lini_b] mote than ugluk imo
[PippinForTheWin] i think that hobbits are so cooperative because they havent really been exposed to much of middle earth besides the shire
[Elemmire] its hard to know
[Pete-DOH] we don’t know, Dems–the “gollum, gollum” incident is confusing
[PippinForTheWin] they have no enemies
[Jenniearcheo] wb ll
[Elemmire] he seems to get pippins hints about gollum and precious
[Elfriend] That’s an interesting point.
[Demosthenes] i mean, what merry and pippin do is inspired, but is Grishnakh just guessing?
[Pete-DOH] wb lorienslady. Did you have a green smoothie with dinner?
[Jenniearcheo] He does seem to be groping them to see if they have something
[Elfriend] Not being exposed to the world of the big folk, not exposed to corruption etc.
[Jenniearcheo] And the words “Gollum” and “precious” bring him up short
[Darkover] I think he probably had a lot of info, but was unsure about what it all meant. Grishnakh struck me as the type who listens at keyholes.
[Susanita] yes, Darkover
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[lini_b] yes Darkover
[Demosthenes] The thought came suddenly into Pippin’s mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: ‘Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He’s looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.’
[Darkover] Thanks, Susanita and Elemmire, and lini_b
[Demosthenes] pippin thinks he knows about the ring
[Pete-DOH] The orcs were told to bring the hobbits back aive, without spoiling them. So Grishnakh knew they might have been holding *something* big
[Jenniearcheo] Made his fingers twitch and he said, “Oh, ho!”
[Darkover] Right, Pete and Demosthenes. He just probably didn’t know specifically what it was, i.e., a Ring
[lorienslady] no Pete not today lol
[PippinForTheWin] right
[Pete-DOH] awwww, too bad
[Jenniearcheo] But he’s a mordor orc, so he may have heard that Gollum had whatever it was.
[Demosthenes] If the Ring wasn’t common knowledge among even the Wise, then why would an orc know?
[Elemmire] maybe, the words gollum and precious only stop him because he doesn’t want the hobbits to realise what he is up to. hes lookking for something but doesn’t know what.
[Demosthenes] that being said, grishnakh is a mordor orc as you point out jennie
[Puma] he knew
[Jenniearcheo] He may not have known “ring”, but that there was “something” that Gollum had been tortured over
[Demosthenes] maybe he’s one of lugburz’s special spies.
[Pete-DOH] So tht “Gollum Gollum” incident was a red herring, or something that Tolkien put there without fleshing it out?
[lini_b] gollum had been hanging around mordor lots and they may have run across each other
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’s a leader amongst the mordor orc team
[Elemmire] yes lini_b
[Darkover] Is it possible Pippin’s lines about “gollum” and “my precious,” meant something to Grishnakh, because he was one of the orcs who tortured Gollum in Mordor?
[Demosthenes] lini: possible! maybe groshnakh came from the tower itself even?
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[Pete_R] hmmm, maybe Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yeah i wonder
[Puma] grishnakh had reported to a nazgul at river….then ran with group to rejoin
[Demosthenes] “four fingers only has the black hand but they are enough”
[Puma] he knew about the ring
[Elemmire] this is interesting
[Jenniearcheo] True. He held the nazgul in more awe than the Uruks did
[Demosthenes] if so, Grishnakh would have seen Sauron.
[Demosthenes] met? cowered before?
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, he had been forced to report to one. He knew how fearsome they could be.
[Elemmire] or heard about him Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] What was the line? When he was repeating “Nazgul”
[Puma] and the nazgul knew a hobbit had the ring
[Pete_R] Not neccessaroly, Demz–word about Sauron’s apearance would be spread throughout th Mordor crew, I’d think
[Jenniearcheo] “Nazgul, Nazgul” said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savored painfully.
[Demosthenes] You’ll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan’t hurry the enquiry. Oh dear no!
[Demosthenes] and who’s the Questioner?
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean the Nazgul would necessarily have told Grishnakh about the Ring, Puma. The bad guys of M-E aren’t big on explaining themselves or their decisions to the lower ranks.
[Darkover] Probably a Nazgul, Demosthenes.
[Elemmire] good question Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] i thought they called them Shriekers?
[Puma] anyway….i have to head out.fun convo people….and if you want to speak about the active valar in lotr….speak tome of it sometime…there are many examples
[lini_b] i figured Sauron, because of the capitol Q
[Jenniearcheo] To the Uruks, it’d be Saruman
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Puma] good convo people
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Puma, see you next time.
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[Elemmire] bye puma
[Pete_R] bye Puma
[lini_b] bye Puma
[Elemmire] yeah, maybe sauron?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting to wonder what would have happened if they had managed to get Merry and Pippin to Isengard
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: if … and a definiter if … Grishnakh had been present at the torture of Gollum … then you’d think Grishnakh would mean Sauron.
[Darkover] For something as important as the Ring, the Questioner might have been Sauron himself, but I’m betting it was a Nazgul.
[Jenniearcheo] Would Saruman have turned them over to a Nazgul?
[Darkover] More painful than interesting for Merry and Pippin, Jennie
[Demosthenes] For i have always inferred that Sauron dealt with Gollum personally.
[lini_b] heck no
[Elemmire] hmm not sure
[Elemmire] i guess
[Susanita] shirrrrrrrrre
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie–would Saruman have sent a buch of Uruk-hai after Frodo?
[Susanita] bagginssssssssss
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting for me sitting here on my nice king-size quilt
[Demosthenes] But .. it’s a string of logic i know
[Jenniearcheo] Seemingly he did
[Demosthenes] with a few ifs
[Elemmire] Demosthenes it makes sense
[lini_b] gollum hates the great eye
[Jenniearcheo] When the Uruks were sent, was it on Sauron’s behalf?
[Demosthenes] jennie: Saruman would have kept the hobbits
[Mino] Mae govannen! How amazing to be able to chat with other Tolkien and LoTR fans
[Darkover] You are probably right that Sauron was present at Gollum’s torture. Tolkien wrote that gollum feared the Dark Lord, but hated him even more
[Demosthenes] at least until he got all the information he could
[Jenniearcheo] Were the three bands of orcs working together because Sauron told them to?
[Darkover] Hello, Mino
[Elemmire] hi mino
[lini_b] he doesn’t like the nazgul but “Don’t take it to him”
[Pete_R] Didn’t Saruman have Uruks as well, or ifd the movie fogging my memory?
[Elemmire] the uruks were sarumans
[Jenniearcheo] Would there have been a terrific showdown between the Two Towers if they had managed to Take the Hobbits to Isengard, is myquestion
[Darkover] And if Gollum had been questioned by a Nazgul, say, wouldn’t he have hated the nazgul?
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yes, Ugluk is one of saruman’s uruks
[Elemmire] possibly jennie
[Darkover] He did, Pete_R. Remember the symbol of the White Hand?
[Susanita] Orcs with the filthy white mark
[Darkover] That was in both the books and the movies.
[Mino] Aye, the mark of Saruman
[Pete_R] k, thx, Demz and Elemmire Hi, Mino
[Demosthenes] he gives them man-flesh
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, they didn’t have the ring. If Frodo’d been one of those captured, and Saruman had got the ring, then we’d see what we’d see . . .
[Mino] I bred them down in the depths of Isengard
[Darkover] Then this would have been a much shorter and less happier book, Jennie
[Pete_R] I remembered the white hand, Darkover, but Jennie confused me.
[Jenniearcheo] I do that from time to time.
* Elemmire can feel my brain working overtime
[Pete_R] ysp
[Jenniearcheo] Feeds them on Fell Meats, no doubt
[Mino] I haven’t read the books in a few years, but I’ve seen the movies a million times so most of my memores are from them
[Elemmire] great diet
[Demosthenes] related to the how-much-does-grishnakh-know question:
[Demosthenes] ‘You seem to know a lot,’ said Uglúk. ‘More than is good for you, I guess. Perhaps those in Lugbúrz might wonder how, and why.
[Susanita] I’m reading the chapters as we go
[Jenniearcheo] Always insist on kosher Fell Meats
[Darkover] Orcs aren’t above a bit of cannibalism, so I wonder how much more fell the meats could get!
[Susanita] it’s a treat
[Mino] haha
[Jenniearcheo] Is Lugburz an orc city in Mordor?
[Elemmire] maybe the whole listening at doors poin that darkover? made Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] lugburz is the orc word for the dark tower
[Jenniearcheo] Ahhh
[Jenniearcheo] kay
[Elfriend] When I see the name ‘Lugburz’ I think of some part of Germany in the first or second world war.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. lol
[Darkover] lol, Elfriend
[lini_b] i figured because sauron knew what was in saurumans mind, that he sent his orcs to run into the isengatd group
[Demosthenes] Barad-dûr (Sindarin “Dark Tower”, sometimes given as The Barad-dûr (Lugbúrz in Black Speech))
[Elfriend] I never knew that
[Elfriend] IN all my time as a Tolkien fan
[Darkover] These discussions are educational, as well as interesting
[Demosthenes] i figured orcs would not use black speech .. but they do. kinda.
[Elemmire] why does my chat not like the accents?
[Jenniearcheo] I loved Pippin’s refusal to eat the strip of dried meat.lol
[Pete_R] same here, Elemmire
[lini_b] mine either Elemmire
[Demosthenes] mibbit does not do accents very well. :/
[Jenniearcheo] WE’re using the mibbit chat. It doesn’t like his pasted diacritical marks
[Elfriend] But I’m going to leave here wanting to read the books again – as always
[Elemmire] i get a little question mark. its confusing
[Pete_R] Pippin was all, “Ewww, I don’t *think* so…”
[Elemmire] this is a really good conversation!
[Darkover] He wasn’t that hungry yet, and I don’t blame him.
[Darkover] We try, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] The Nazgul are “the apple of the Great Eye.” lol Apple
[Elemmire] woah. fruit?
[Darkover] and his enforcers, it seems
[Elemmire] mordor doeant do fruit
[Demosthenes] the fruit would come from Nurnen, i guess.
[Elfriend] How about ‘the apple of the great evil eye’
[Demosthenes] or from further east
[Darkover] If mordor doesn’t do fruit, maybe that’s Sauron’s problem. He’s not regular.
[lini_b] but they do wine don’t they?
[Jenniearcheo] “He was famished but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him by an Orc, the flesh of he dared not guess what creature.”
[Susanita] oooh, Darkover, that’s the pits
[Elemmire] yuck
[Darkover] Sorry, I thought it was funny
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] oh dear
[Jenniearcheo] Now I have a vision of SAuron on the john
[Elemmire] we’re slowly going downhill
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for that
[Susanita] rofl
[Elemmire] scrap slowly
[Demosthenes] lots of orc names in this chapter. skai, grishnakh, lugdush, mahur, ugluk
[Pete_R] The REALLY Dark Throne
[Elfriend] Oh no
[Darkover] How else do you think Mordor tortures people, jennie?
[Susanita] Dem did write that post about Middle Earth … elimination
[Jenniearcheo] True, the One Loo to Rule Them All
[Elemmire] i like grishnakh as a name. it sounds good when you say it
[Pete_R] haha–true, Susanita
[Darkover] And it was funny, but true, Susanita
[Elfriend] Stop it x D
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the Uruks’ eyes are described as angular or slanted or something.
[Elemmire] like an elfs
[Jenniearcheo] Something . . . perhaps not 21st-century PC
[Darkover] Tolkien didn’t bother to be PC, and I thank the Valar for it
[Demosthenes] one guesses an orc might be attractive to another orc
[Elemmire] hmm
[Elfriend] Ugluck and Grishnakh sound much better than ‘Gorbag’ and ‘Shagrat’
[Elemmire] there are never any mentions of femal orcs
[Susanita] let’s not go there, Dem!
[Darkover] no wonder they live their lives in the dark. If they saw each other in daylight, there would be no little orcs
[Elemmire] lol
[Mino] lol
[Susanita] orclettes
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it was half a century ago . . .
[lini_b] are there lady orcs?
[Elfriend] Dems, that would take many pints of Fosters
[Pete_R] Female orcs hang out with female dwarves, Elemmire
[Susanita] orclings?
[Elemmire] ok pete
[lini_b] lol Pete_R
[Darkover] Actually, in a more serious vein, I have always suspected that we never see or hear about female orcs, because orcs reproduce by rape.
[Jenniearcheo] I suspect lady orcs are kept in the depths of caverns, in a constant state of pregnancy
[Jenniearcheo] pretty much
[Elfriend] I could have gone the rest of this HOF without that one Darkover.
[Elemmire] oh great. lovely
[Elfriend] But, okay.
[lini_b] and uruks are test tube babies
[Darkover] Sorry. I seem to be in offensive mode tonight
[Demosthenes] Tolkien also described the Druedain as having “unlovely faces”
[Demosthenes] So the lack of looks gets shared around
[Jenniearcheo] Except the uruk-hai are a perversion of orcs and men . . . which was prettied up for the film with his weird sac. But probably resulted from human captive women
[Elemmire] druedain?
[Pete_R] Darkover, I doubt that, becuse I’d think there would be more examples of halfbreeds, like in Bree
[Demosthenes] Aragorn is a bit weatherbeaten too
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: the pukel men. wildmen of the woods. woses.
[Elfriend] A tactical advantage.
[Darkover] Well, Pete, how do we know there aren’t? and where do you think such halfbreeds come from?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the weirdo in Bree was an early uruk experiment
[miriel] Night all
[Jenniearcheo] night miriel
[Demosthenes] the swarthy man?
[Mithrandir] Miriel!
[Darkover] Goodnight, Miriel
[Elemmire] bye miriel
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Darkover] See you next time
[lini_b] bye miriel
[Elfriend] Dems- one would not seek Isildurs heir in unlovely faces, one might be looking for Orli or some such : )
[Demosthenes] i dunno. pippin (or merry?) says later that he looked orcish?
[Jenniearcheo] Bill Ferny’s funny looking friend
[Mithrandir] Ok, talk to you later Miriel!
[Mithrandir] Good night!
[Mithrandir] and im goin out too guys!
[Mithrandir] night all
[Demosthenes] night Mithrandir!
[Elemmire] bye
[Pete_R] Bt what I’m saying is that if all orc babies come from forced relations with humans, then the race of orcs would be watered down, and all the orc would be “half-breeds,” for lack of a better term.
[lini_b] bye Mithrandir
[Darkover] Aragorn was weatherbeaten from leading a hard life, but no one ever said he was ugly. On the contrary, when he was cleaned and dressed up at Lorien, Arwen thought he looked like an elf-lord
[Pete_R] bye miriel and mithrandir
[Elemmire] do we have to discuss orc breeding habits?
[Darkover] Bye, Mithrandir
[Jenniearcheo] Not all orc babies. Just the Uruk-hai, Pete
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire’s right, there are better things to discuss.
[lini_b] how could sauruman have created 10,000 uruks in such a short time?
[Elfriend] We are now in a Pg-13 chat
[Elemmire]
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Demosthenes] there’s some indication that orcs might be immortal too
[Jenniearcheo] But, he’d been doing so for a while
[Demosthenes] though that doesn’t come up until ROTK
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Demosthenes?
[Elemmire] really?
[Jenniearcheo] They are perverted elves, aren’t they?
[Susanita] Uruk-hai were Saruman’s clone army
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Pete_R] Okay, isstead of storks, do fell beasts bring orc babies/ But I digress…
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] No reason why perverted elves should suddenly acquire a life span is there?
[Demosthenes] http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcDeath
[Pete_R] interesting point, Dems
[Demosthenes] it’s circumstantial, like a lot of stuff in Tolkien.
[Elemmire] good point Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bolg and Azog were fairly long-lived. Good point
[Jenniearcheo] It surprises me that there would be a father-son relationship amongst orcs. That they paid attention to parentage
[Elemmire] hmm
[Pete_R] Jennie, I always got the impression the the elves were in the loop thousands of years ago, and the orc gene pool was probably horribly corrupted
[Jenniearcheo] Rather inbred, I’d think
[Pete_R] yah
[Jenniearcheo] Well, on that cheery note
[Elfriend] Susanita, interesting that.
[Jenniearcheo] I have a Thai green shrimp curry and jasmine rice waiting for me.
[Elemmire] bye jennie
[Jenniearcheo] with fresh Thai basil
[Darkover] Sounds great, Jennie! Enjoy, and we will see you next time
[Elemmire] yum
[Elemmire] see you
[lini_b] bye Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Are we done for this week?
[Jenniearcheo] Byee. Bye Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] seeya jennie!
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all aspects of Orcishness
[Pete_R] bye, Jennie
[Demosthenes] i recommend the slimy tolkien FAQ btw
[Demosthenes] great resource
[Elfriend] Saruman had the stronger breed of Orcs, Sauron did did not seem to care to have the same investment.
[Susanita] orcs were cannon fodder
[Demosthenes] sauron uses massive numberws to win
[Darkover] Maybe the Dark Lord figured there were more where they came from.
[Demosthenes] yah arrow fodder
[Demosthenes] ok, next week we’ll be discussing idril and tuor

Here is how Round 2 is shaping up right now…

The Shire Division

(8) Huan is being handed his walking papers by (1) Galadriel, while the most powerful of the Ainur (4) Morgoth has a solid lead over the eldest ent (5) Treebeard.  (6) Luthien seems poised to take down (3) Bilbo Baggins. But the closest story in this round appears to be the match between the Mirkwood Elvenking (7) Thranduil with a slim lead over the head of the White Council (2) Saruman.

The Erebor Division

The current Cinderella seed (16) Pippin is soundly beating ‘Hot Dwarf’ (9) Fili, can the Heir of Durin put in a late push? Last year’s champ (12) Samwise Gamgee is facing an uphill battle with (4) Beren. The owner of the Last Homely Home, (6) Elrond, is currently leading against (14) Eowyn, unless she can get some support from other Warrior Women. Can she make to the Sweet 16, possibly against Aragorn!? Speaking of (7) Aragorn, he is soundly trouncing the windlord (2) Gwaihir.

The Mordor Division

(9) Gil-galad, the high kind of Noldor, seems destined to lose to the number one seed (1) Smaug. The Dark Lord (4) Sauron is handily beating his dwarven opponent (5) Dain Ironfoot. (11) Fingolfin has a slim lead over (3) Thorin Oakenshield, where is his ARmy? (2) Beorn seems ready to send (7) Shelob packing. If things keep going this way, we could have Smaug and Sauron in the Sweet 16.

The Angmar Division

Not quite a fair battle, but (1) The One Ring seems ready to abandon (8) Frodo Baggins. The Eldar King (12) Manwe, has a very solid lead over a descendant of Girion in (4) Bard the Bowman. Some call him ‘creepy’  and ‘sneaky’ (3) Gollum, but he’s got a lead over the imposing dwarf (6) Dwalin. And last but not least, (10) Merry seems rather outranked and outclassed by (2) Gandalf the Grey.

Voting continues until tonight at 10pm ET. [Vote Now!]

THE NAME of the Shire in The Lord of the Rings is one of the most mis-understood names in Tolkien’s lexicon. Many readers have suggested that J.R.R. Tolkien was using “Shire” to denote some sort of special relationship to England — i.e., they believe that Tolkien was hinting that the Shire was supposed to be identified with modern England.

There is some truth to this proposal, but only in a limited sense. That is, the Shire is not intended to be geographically or politically associated with England in a literal sense. Rather, it is presented to the reader in terms that would have been familiar to someone who was native to England. While this intention might seem like the clenching proof one needs to show that the Shire must be England, Tolkien ruled out that possibility in the notes he prepared for translators of The Lord of the Rings.

In “Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings” Tolkien wrote:

It is desirable that the translator should read Appendix F in Volume III of The Lord of the Rings and follow the theory there set out. In the original text English represents the Common Speech of the supposed period. Names that are given in modern English therefore represent names in the Common Speech, often but not always being translations of older names in other languages, especially Sindarin (Grey-elven). The language of translation now replaces English as the equivalent of the Common Speech; the names in English form should therefore be translated into the other language according to their meaning (as closely as possible).

[Read More]

Bootnote: the link above should go to the full article on Martinenz’s website. Unfortunately the site appears down right now — hoping it will come back soon so you can read the article in full.

You will also see some very helpful tips on what types of activities can be done to celebrate Tolkien Reading Day, from discussions about common themes or settings, to fun games to engage children with. Tolkien Reading Day can be held at a home, a school, a library or a bookstore or you can even take it outside, maybe at a picnic and add a meal to the event. And while the Middle-earth stories tend to be the more popular at a Tolkien Reading Day event, his other works, such as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Letters from Father Christmas or Roverandam can be just as enchanting.

The theme for this year is Landscapes, a subject that Tolkien was particularly adept at envisioning and describing in wonderful detail. Middle-earth must have had very successful travel agents, how many times have you wondered what it would be like to visit some of the realms described?

Tolkien Forever, the Tolkien Smial in Southern California, will be hosting an event this Saturday, March 23. True, it is not the correct day, but a Saturday works better for drawing more people to the event in the ever busy Megalopolis that is So Cal. For those in the Los Angeles area, stop by their Facebook event page for details.

If you have a Tolkien Reading Day event happening in your area, please let us know the details so we can post it and let others know where they can go in an area near them. You can drop a line to Spymaster@TheOneRing.net.