Also, this coming weekend (Saturday August 17 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be focusing on a movie topic — Beorn. That’s right, the shapeshifter of the Vales of the Anduin and hero of the Battle of the Five Armies. What do you think of Mikael Persbrandt, what are your thoughts on Beorn’s demense and hall so far, and what do you think of the spy image that we revealed last Friday? Those are just a few of the questions we’ll touch on, so don’t miss it!

John Rhys-Davies is Welsh and a screen actor and voice actor. He is perhaps best known for playing the dwarf Gimli and Treebeard in The Lord of the Rings trilogy and the charismatic Arab excavator Sallah in the Indiana Jones films. He also played Agent Michael Malone in the 1993 remake of the 1950s television series The Untouchables, Pilot Vasco Rodrigues in the mini-series Shōgun, Professor Maximillian Arturo in Sliders, King Richard I in Robin of Sherwood, General Leonid Pushkin in the James Bond film The Living Daylights, and Macro in I, Claudius. Additionally, he provided the voices of Cassim in Disney’s Aladdin and the King of Thieves.

And a reminder, next weekend (Saturday August 3 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter in our read-through of The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter XI: The Palantir. It’s the final chapter of Book III, so don’t miss it!

And remember, tomorrow (July 20 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the Hero and the Heroic in The Lord of the Rings.

Yet there are a number of minor (some even without a name!) characters who either serve an important purpose, give us a great deal of food for thought, or even go against established yet hard-to-overcome stereotypes about the content of Tolkien’s writing.

In no particular order, here are my leading six.

1) Sam’s dead Southron warrior.

“…suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.”
Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, The Lord of the Rings.

A common criticism of Tolkien is that evil is evil and good is good and ne’er the twain shall meet. The bad guys only exist to be Othered… and then gloriously hacked to death. Yet Sam’s thoughts on the dead Southron are a direct repudiation of this view.

Sam wonders at the man’s name, where he came from. The questions run thick and fast. Was he was really a bad man? Was he deceived into serving Sauron to march far from his home to die fruitlessly in the woods of Ithilien? Would he really rather have stayed there in peace?

The narrator gives no answers, but the questions in themselves are a powerful reminder that conflict cannot be easily reduced to “us” and “enemy”.

“It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much.”

Considering Sam, of all the hobbits, is our perspective character — the “Everyman” — it’s more important than you might think. Pippin has similarly uneasy thoughts as he watches Saruman’s forces march away south to Helm’s Deep from Isengard.

2) Ghân-buri-Ghân

“There sat Théoden and Éomer, and before them on the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and the hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss. He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist.”
The Ride of the Rohirrim, The Lord of the Rings.

Another misunderstood criticism: evil is always ugly, and those on the side of good are strikingly handsome. Enter the Woses of Drúadan Forest. The descendents of the solitary and tribal Drúedain folk who fought in the First Age against Morgoth, and abandoned Numenor long before its destruction, there’s nothing pretty about the Wild Men of the Woods. Yet, they assist the Rohirrim to reach the Pelennor in time to save the folk of Gondor.

Of course there are other examples. Most prominently, Sauron assumed a fair form to deceive the elves of Eregion and start the chain of events that leads to the forging of the One Ring.

Icing on the cake, the Woses use poison arrows, and the Marshal of the Mark Elfhelm seems to imply that they’ve even been used on the Rohirrim. If the good folks never resort to foul means to win, the Woses don’t seem to have got the message.

3) Lúthien Tinúviel

“Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father.”
A Knife in the Dark, The Lord of the Rings.

Lúthien doesn’t even directly enter the events of The Lord of the Rings, yet her influence is felt throughout the tale.

Her example, and that of Beren, inspires Frodo to resist the commands of the Nazgúl at the Ford of Bruinen. Her arts of healing — more than once she saved Beren from death’s door — are in a smaller measure seen in her descendents Elrond and Aragorn. And as Sam observes just before he and Frodo enter Torech Ungol, the light of the Silmaril she helps Beren recapture is in the Phial of Galadriel that later proves so vital in keeping hope alive for the Quest.

And make no mistake, Beren could not have wrested the Silmaril from Morgoth alone. Lúthien plays an equal part — probably the key role in my opinion — in the success of that particular quest.

And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.

And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter: The Voice of Saruman.

Aragorn is the kind of character that demands a closer look. You must remember the speech that Shrek gives to Donkey about ogres being a lot like onions: “We have layers!” I would also like to use the onion metaphor for Strider. But wait — that’s just one layer. Peel away a bit and you’ll find the outcast orphan-lad who was taken in by the Elves; his mother desperate for some protection. Peel away more layers to find within a skillful fighter, a passionate lover, a delicate negotiator with a voice of great wisdom, a healer and master of herb-lore, and yes… in the very center of his heart, underneath it all, is a King.

It’s no small wonder readers and movie-goers are fascinated by Aragorn. Women of all ages swoon over Viggo Mortensen’s portrayal of this multi-faceted character. No one can possibly imagine Stuart Townsend taking the role, not at this point (sorry Stuart). Men have found themselves admiring a new hero on the silver screen: as cool a cat as Errol Flynn and as swashbuckling as Harrison Ford. “This guy is great, man, he can kick-ass and has all the ladies in Middle-earth after him!”

Yes, but I must remind you that that ‘matinee idol’ image of Aragorn is just the surface. This man has so much on his plate, is so burdened by worries and duty and the hardships of his life, that we can’t help but admire the TRUE Aragorn that’s underneath the rugged exterior. I say the true Aragorn is proven by his actions. Yes, he is truly the Ranger, leader, lover, and King that fills Tolkien’s pages and fills our daydreams.

But he is only able to succeed (for himself and for all us readers) because he proves himself. The verb “to prove” has several meanings. You could say the actual word prove is like an onion too. Proving a thing is true can be done by establishing it with facts and evidence. To prove the existence of the King, and his rightful claim to the throne, you have to show clear facts; real things in the physical world that show Aragorn is the heir. So Aragorn is given the Elessar by Galadriel:

“In this hour,” she said, “take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the Elendil.”

A beautiful eagle-shaped brooch, given with love but also with a sense of hanging doom. But the mere possession of this Elessar does not prove he’s the King — let us not overstate the obvious here. I can also find the passage in Appendix A where Elrond gives Aragorn the Ring of Barahir and the Shards of Narsil. There is also the stunning Sceptre of Annúminas, which Elrond refused to give to the young man at first.

Funny. The Elven Lord of Imladris refused to give Aragorn the great Sceptre. Let’s think about that. No matter what kinds of jewelry, crowns, baubles, or finery you have accumulated, you really aren’t the King just by possessing such items. Holding up the reforged Andúril to glimmer in the light does not a King make. Aragorn could have trotted off to Minas Tirith, entered the Citadel with all his fine raiment and his new sword, and walking right up to Denethor declared: “Here I am! Bow down to me!” Doesn’t take much imagination to guess the Steward’s response.

Speaking of inherited artifacts, that creepy little Palantír belongs to Aragorn too, I should note. It is an heirloom of his own house. None of the Stones belong to Saruman or Sauron or Denethor. When Aragorn reveals his true identity to the Dark Lord, using the Stone from Orthanc…. just think! It is a critical turning point in his life: and a turning point in the story. This Ranger from the North is no longer in hiding. He controls the Seeing Stone like a finely tuned instrument, and gives the Enemy a sucker-punch right in the gut. I can imagine the wild fear and hatred that Sauron must have felt! So Aragorn comes closer to proving himself.

Now this is the crux of the matter. This is the true meaning of the verb “to prove.” Peel off another layer of that onion. To prove something you have to test it. You have to put it out there. See how it stands up. That is the Kingly Proof we are looking for.

Aragorn had to prove himself, his worth, and his lineage throughout the War of the Ring. Every task put at Aragorn’s feet, all the difficult choices and furious events, every step forward where his credibility was on the line, was part of his ongoing test. He had to prove that everything hanging over him was indeed his own right to become King. And like Atlas destined to carry such a massive weight, Aragorn proves he is strong enough to hold himself up.

It’s a theme we see often in Tolkien’s world. Characters are pushed to their own personal limits. Sometimes they are given a moral dilemma that must be conquered. Sometimes an army of Orcs. Whatever the test, we are enthralled to read of Aragorn’s exploits. We sense that something inside of him is waking up. It’s something very strange indeed to know that you must prove yourself. I sometimes think it is easier on a person if they don’t know what is at stake. But throughout LOTR Aragorn is painfully aware.

He is not given the Scepter of his forefathers because Elrond doesn’t believe he is yet proven. He is not allowed the hand of Arwen either “….until the time comes and you are found worthy of it.” Going off into the Wild and becoming extremely close in friendship with Gandalf (some would say becoming an apprentice) is how Aragorn responds to this. He must survive many journeys and succeed at many challenges against the Enemy. What must it have felt like for him?

Using the name Strider (or any alias) the servants of the Enemy would not to find him. What a strange dilemma. He had to simultaneously hide himself from Sauron and fight against his encroaching evil as well. All the time thinking to himself that the might of ancient Númenor was flowing like blood in his veins. All the time wondering if he’d be strong enough to live through it. And certainly his own internal conflicts made it more difficult.

Aragorn had so many tests to prove himself it makes your head spin:

1) help the hobbits survive cross-country
2) fend off the Nazgûl attack
3) resist the power of the Ring
4) lead the Fellowship after Gandalf’s fall
5) track down Merry and Pippin’s captors
6) inspire Théoden King at Helm’s Deep
7) survive the Battle of the Hornburg
8) use the Palantír against the will of Sauron
9) traverse the Paths of the Dead and recruit the Oathbreakers
10) defeat the Corsairs of Umbar
11) come swooping in to save the day on the Pelennor Fields
12) heal many suffering and wounded with athelas
13) dismiss the faint-hearted with mercy
14) challenge the Mouth of Sauron and the armies of Mordor

And a dozen other things are thrown at this man that I haven’t even remembered! Does it seem to you that Aragorn was ever once given the easy way out? At what point could he reasonably raise up his hands and disavow himself from all of it? Shouting to the night in exasperation, “Enough already! How much more can I take?”

Yet he never does. And we learn something profound about this man from the fact that he endures so much.

So there you have the reality of “proof.” A lesser man would have been overwhelmed. Aragorn was not. He finds something in his soul that keeps him going. But what is it really? Can we find that final layer underneath it all? What makes Aragorn so strong from within?

The key, I think, is found when the Grey Company rides down from the North, finding Aragorn and the others on the fields of Rohan at night. Halbarad and the other Dúnedain bring him messages and a gift from Arwen. She spent many weeks making a great standard for him to unfurl at the appropriate time. The standard of the White Tree, the mark of Elendil’s house, “wrought in mithril and gold.” She is giving him, in essence, the final acknowledgment that he will become King. That she believes in him no matter what. Something inside Aragorn shifts into place. Tolkien is quietly showing us the point of no return for this character. It is such a revealing moment, yet handled with great subtlety, indeed there is danger the reader might miss it. Aragorn finds his greatest strength from Arwen’s love. He remembers the price she must pay to love him, becoming mortal herself. We must also realize she is paying the ultimate price to be at his side.

Aragorn will pass any test to honor Arwen’s heart — to justly respect and honor what she is giving up for him. He decides to make his heart equally as strong as hers. He is keenly aware of her sacrifice, and it weighs on everything he does. If need be, he will prove himself to the final end of ends. He will fly down the fury of all Sauron’s armies, all the treacherous paths of the world, conquering the Enemy from within and without to honor her. Aragorn’s choices and actions show the true measure of his worth, especially because he understands what others are giving up for him.

That is proof enough for me.

Much too hasty,
Quickbeam
@quickbeam2000

========================

This article was originally posted on October 3rd 2003 as part of our Green Books area. 

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. Plus, as a reminder: this weekend (Saturday June 29 at 6pm EDT) the Hall of Fire topic is the next chapter of The Two Towers: Book III Chapter IX – Flotsam and Jetsam. See you then!

Session Start: Sun Jun 16 07:15:44 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to “The HOF topic for today: Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard. | General TORn chat thataway! click ] #theonering.net”
[Demosthenes] Okay, let’s get this dog an pony show under way.
[Demosthenes] Other folks can catch up.
[miriel] I wonder, did they have nice maps?
[Jenniearcheo] Did who?
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to notice that — at a meta-level — this chapter is a lot of description bookended by two pieces of dialogue?
[miriel] for the road to isengard
[Turin] for middle earth
[sunshower] Gimil waxes poetic?
[Xanaseb] hmm Mithrandir, nope
[Jenniearcheo] They do go into rather a lot of geographical detail
[Mithrandir] you should get it
[Demosthenes] sunshower: that’s the frontispiece.
[Mithrandir] it’s an excellent help
[sunshower] yep
[Demosthenes] and the hobbits are the endpiece
[Jenniearcheo] But it seems mostly to illustrate the ruin of the place
[Jenniearcheo] Why wouldn’t they walk on the road down by the riverbed?
[ChristineGolden] I thought it went beyond geographical detail; much of it was used for effect.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Before and after
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what sort of effect? mood-setting?
[Demosthenes] Something else?
[sunshower] the…what’s next? effect
[dzeno] anyone played ROTK on PS2 or PC? the road to Isengard was amazing there
[Mithrandir] YES dzeno
[Raurenkili] I did
[Xanaseb] dzeno
[Mithrandir] :/
[Xanaseb] kind of off topic
[Gothmog] true was awesome
[Jenniearcheo] But kind of on
[ChristineGolden] Not just mood-setting
[Mithrandir] In fact i just re-finished the crack of doom level
[Demosthenes] I’d like to focus on the book chapter if we could please.
[Mithrandir] just a few minutes ago lol
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what else then?
[ChristineGolden] There’s almost a sense of claustrophobia and the sense of the trees closing in on them.
[Mithrandir] Ok! So we start. By all means! The first eve question is! Who do you think lead the army of Isengard to battle???
[Turin] sauman?
[Mithrandir] no
[ChristineGolden] As though, “this is the road you must take to your doom, whatever it may be.”
[Xanaseb] lol
[Xanaseb] *true
[Jenniearcheo] They seem to shun the road for a while
[Demosthenes] A sense of … horror?
[Demosthenes] like … lovecraft might do?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t mean “road” literally, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure. They get back on it the next day, for some reason
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they literally do
[ChristineGolden] No, not horror, “doom” in the sense that Tolkien so often uses it.
[Demosthenes] doom?
[Jenniearcheo] They do seem creeped out by the dry river bed
[ChristineGolden] fate, destiny
[Xanaseb] the topic is ‘Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard.’
[Xanaseb]
[ChristineGolden] “all roads lead to Isengard, whether they want to go there or not.”
[Xanaseb] hehe, quite symbolic that quote, I’d say
[Mith] and that means we cant discuss the aftermath of the battle at helms deep??
[sunshower] hmmm I more thought the detours were to avoid the group seeing some behind the scenes things
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. The road follows the river and then breaks straight towards Isengard
[Demosthenes] mithrandir: we’ll come to that soon.
[Susanita] hello Radagast
[Radagast] hello
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: a wyrd then?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, that’s a good way to describe it.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that they’re not already creeped out by the forest
[Demosthenes] like theoden says … ‘Nay!’ said Théoden. ‘In the dark hour before dawn I doubted, but we will not part now. I will come with you, if that is your counsel.’
[miriel] all roads lead there, it is both very nicely located geographically, but also.. had it not fallen, it would have changed the outcome of the war considerably
[Oakenshield] Good evening little masters
[Raurenkili] lol
[dzeno] did anyone besides Gandalf knew the true nature oh huorns on that road?
[Xanaseb] yes, very much so miri
[Demosthenes] There’s also a feeling of mythic in the descriptions that plays into that.
[Mithrandir] all roads lead there because it’s close to the gap of rohan and that’s the only plain pass through the misty mountains
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Mithrandir] my opinion
[Demosthenes] and even in gandalf’s riddling, I guess.
[Xanaseb] hey Lurtz
[sunshower] hi Darkover
[ChristineGolden] oh, definitely, even more than Tolkien’s usual religious symbolism.
[miriel] Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel!
[Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover:
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, running late today.
[Demosthenes] It;’s heroic symbolism though. Like the mound on the eyot at the Fords of the Isen.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris. I get here ASAP after work.
[Demosthenes] Not religious symbolism.
[ChristineGolden]
[Darkover] sorry, what is heroic symbolism?
[Jenniearcheo] Then there’s the hike through the forest
[Jenniearcheo] Symbolizing what?
[Darkover] or I should say, what is a symbol of being heroic?
[ChristineGolden] Like teutonic mythology, Darkover .
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the heavy description going on throughout the chapter. The burial mounds, the forest.
[Lasak] hmm?
[Darkover] Right, Demothenes, thank you.
[Turin] they just have to get to isengard. Tolkien love talking about travel
[sunshower] stone, water and wood
[Jenniearcheo] The description of Isengard and Orthanc, before and after
[Jenniearcheo] And the comparison of Orthanc to a wannabe Barad Dur
[Mithrandir] i never really understood what was that black mist that the company encountered on their way to isengard
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, a description of it as one
[Jenniearcheo] Wasn’t that the trees passing them on the way home?
[miriel] I grieved the loss of the trees, they sounded very nice in the early descriptions
[sunshower] I thought the same Jenniearcheo
[Mithrandir] not what i think.
[Demosthenes] Mithrandir: I believe the mist waqs the huorns returning to Fangorn in the night.
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien used geographic and natural descriptions, Turin, to underscore his themes.
[Mithrandir] actually in the morning they see that the bodies of the orcs are gone
[Mithrandir] and that happens after that mist
[Darkover] IMO, that was Tolkien’s idea of “magic,” Chris–the natural world
[Turin] yah i see
[Darkover] I’ve always wondered if the huorns snacked on the orcs.
[Jenniearcheo] I thought they buried them in a mass grave
[Xanaseb] poor trees
[Darkover] I mean, those bodies had to go *somewhere*
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and what Saruman does is a revolt against that natural “magic”.
[Jenniearcheo] On which no grass would later grow
[Mithrandir] no they buried only the men of rohan
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well put!
[ChristineGolden] I would mostly agree with that, Darkover, but he does also occasionally draw upon the supernatural, such as the Huorns.
[Mithrandir] the bodies of the orcs were too much for burial
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the people buried the men of rohan
[Xanaseb] Darkover, fangorn is =huge- and old
[miriel] it was unclear, no-one entered the possible mound to find out
[Xanaseb] bodies would have been dispersed
[Xanaseb] etc.
[miriel] no pun intended
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had the . . . hang on
[Darkover] and scary, Xanaseb
[Xanaseb] or maybe even swallowed up
[Demosthenes] miriel: but nothing would grow there.
[Xanaseb] hm, true
[Demosthenes] Which has some similarities to the place where the fell beast is burned after the pelennor.
[Mithrandir] they left the bodies of the orcs on the ground because gandalf told them to.
[Mithrandir] dont u remember?
[miriel] true, might have been that the decomposing stuff had some very bad levels of metal etc in them
[Xanaseb] I think it’s just the power of Fangorn
[ChristineGolden] Demosthenes is right, there was a dike/ditch where the orcs were supposedly disposed of.
[Turin] thats the best answer
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, and then the huorns walked by and suddenly a huge pit had been delved into the earth and over it stones were piled into a hill
[Jenniearcheo] Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there
[Xanaseb] huorns are nooot to be messed with, clearly
[Darkover] I wouldn’t care to meet a huorn in a dark forest.
[Darkover] agreed, Xanaseb
[Mithrandir] i dont really understand the difference between a huorn and a regular tree. we know what ents are.
[Mithrandir] but huorns.. :s
[miriel] tolkien plays with very common fears there really: moving trees, and half-aware trees
[Mithrandir] i’ve read 100s of times the descriptions but never understood
[sunshower] warrior-trees?
[Darkover] Huorns are very old trees, or tree-like beings, that tend to be bad-hearted
[Radagast] “Is there some mightier sage, of whom we have yet to learn?”-Theoden. Even though we know of course it wasn’t the work of Wizards was Theoden perhaps in the back of his mind beginning to think The Brown Wizard who he learned of maybe long ago as a child in song had a part in this deed of making the forest
[Jenniearcheo] After the battle at the ford, Gandalf gathered all the scattered folk and had them bury the dead of Rohan at the ford
[Darkover] because, as I understand it, they are sick of trees being abused and misused.
[Mithrandir] and here’s the quote by gandalf. “let the orcs lie” said gandalf. Morning might bring new counsel.
[Xanaseb] true. it’s one of those things that I can’t really understand tbh.. why fear trees?
[Jessy] Even if the Huorns had eaten the orc bodies, what of their armor and weapons? Something had to be buried.
[Lasak] Treas in the night is scary
[Lasak] trees
[Darkover] Walking trees who can tear you apart? I would fear them too, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] The trees were grey and menacing, and a shadow or a mist was about them. The ends of their long sweeping boughs hung down like searching fingers, their roots stood up from the ground like the limbs of strange monsters, and dark caverns opened beneath them.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Mithrandir. Because the Huorns took care of it later
[Xanaseb] yes, but I mean normal trees too.. they’re portrayed as quite angry
[Demosthenes] No, they’re not “normal” trees at all.
[ChristineGolden] Dark forests are almost a primal fear. Even Tacitus mentioned them in his writings about the Teutonic tribes.
[Darkover] poor Gimli almost freaked at one point, not that I blamed him.
[sunshower] even see what a tree broken tree branch can do to a house?
[sunshower] – that 1st tree!
[Xanaseb] still… fearing trees? that takes quite something… like.. Fangorn
[Lasak] Wasn’t this the chapter where gimli and legolas made the deal about visiting fangorn and the caves
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[sunshower] yes Lasak
[Mithrandir] Xana, have u seen snow white and the 7 dwarves by Disney?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: armies do very poorly in forests usually. The Romans were cut to pieces in Teutoburg Forest for example.
[Darkover] and either Pippin or Merry remarks later that the Ents can tear stone as if it is paper. That is an ent, not a huorn, but presumably huorns are very dangerous too.
[Xanaseb] Mith, nope
[ChristineGolden] Well, you can hardly blame Gimli, Darkover, the way everyone keeps lecturing him about his axe whenever they come near a tree.
[Mithrandir] remember when she escapes into the forest?
[Demosthenes] They couldn’t execute with their normal discipline.
[Jess10] So what’s going on?
[Mithrandir] ow u should watch it then!
[Mithrandir] there are scary trees there
[Darkover] Have you ever seen how tree roots can work their way even through stone? Imagine that speeded up, in a time-lapse photography sort of way.
[mib_2hse03] Tolkien based the huorns on the army in Macbeth that camouflaged themselves as a forest.
[mib_2hse03] trees with swords…
[Demosthenes] Yes he did, mib.
[Xanaseb] inspired by it at least mib
[Jess10] Is someone supposed to be talking or something?
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[Phil] night everyone
[ChristineGolden] We need to talk sometime, Demosthenes.
[Xanaseb] wouldn’t say ‘based’ but inspired definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Jess10: Demosthenes is moderating the chat
[Jenniearcheo] he poses Questions and we discuss it
[Jess10] Ok, I’m waiting
[Mithrandir] i wish Puma was here! We really need her! ))
[Susanita] we’re here
[sunshower] oh, we’ll be OK
[Jessy] Tolkien said that he was disappointed that the trees in Macbeth weren’t actually walking, just branches being carried.
[Demosthenes] Hi Jess10. We operate as an open, although moderated chat. You’re free to jump in and add your thoughts on the topic.
[Jenniearcheo] which is currently tree strength. or sommat
[Xanaseb] in any case
[sunshower] goodness gracious
[Xanaseb] where were we?
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the ents that we see at the beginning of the chapter had come to herd the huorns back to Fangorn?
[Demosthenes] Why are they there?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, probably
[Phil] i would say never underestimate the power of nature
[Xanaseb] Dems, maybe maybe
[Xanaseb] but I don’t think the Ents were *that* active
[Jenniearcheo] Going about their herding business
[Darkover] Probably. To take charge of them, at least.
[ChristineGolden] Probably, Demosthenes, although I never thought of that before.
[sunshower] I thought those came to clean up at Helms Deep Dems
[ChristineGolden] Good ideea.
[Xanaseb] they were getting slow and what not
[Lasak] Maybe
[Demosthenes] They must be there for /some/ reason
[Jenniearcheo] They only appear once our company has passed through
[Jess10] I think maybe so, it’s hard to say.
[Lasak] ents is treeherds
[Demosthenes] They clear up the orcs at least. And then disappear back to the north.
[miriel] I think the ents ensured that the hourns did not attack the wrong survivors
[mib_2hse03] I think the ents let the huorns do what they want, hence treebeard saying that they (the huorns) had business with the orcs
[Lasak] so that is their only important task in middle earth, so most likely they would follow the huorns
[Demosthenes] miriel: that could be another reason, yes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf didn’t seem worried
[Jenniearcheo] He led them right through
[Jess10] It makes sense to me!
[Demosthenes] jennie: he did. Maybe there were some ents there already?
[Jenniearcheo] Sneeeaking
[Xanaseb] lol
[ChristineGolden] Why would Gandalf be worried? He already knew what was going on, unlike the others.
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Huorns can differentiate.
[Xanaseb] and hi wanderer
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they didn’t make themselves known until the riders were through. Otherwise, . . . well, panicked horses in the woods . . . not so good
[Demosthenes] ‘It is hot in here,’ said Legolas to Gandalf. ‘I feel a great wrath about me. Do you not feel the air throb in your ears?’
[Demosthenes] ‘Yes,’ said Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] true that
[Xanaseb] as I said, extremely angry forest
[wanderer] hi!
[Xanaseb] more so than usual
[Lasak] Well if you think that if the huorns behaved like the ones in the old forrest there should be some reason for gandalf to be afraid
[Demosthenes] also:
[Darkover] Hello, wanderer
[Demosthenes] ‘Not of all that go on two legs,’ said Legolas. ‘There I think you are wrong. It is Orcs that they hate. For they do not belong here and know little of Elves and Men. Far away are the valleys where they sprang. From the deep dales of Fangorn, Gimli, that is whence they come, I guess.’
[Jenniearcheo] But specifically anti-orc
[ChristineGolden] It would have been an oppressive heat which would reinforce the sense of the forest closing in on/crowding around them.
[Darkover] At least the huorns would draw that distinction
[Jess10] Reminds me of Gimli in the extended scene from the movie lol
[Demosthenes] Yes, Jennie. Quickbeam did mention some sections of forest thyat had been hewed to the ground by orcs.
[Darkover] Orcs are not the greenest people in M-E, and I suspect the forest would remember that.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. I’m sure they don’t even recycle their beer cans
[Demosthenes] Also, I am minded — and this comes later in the next chapter — that the Ents at Isengard allow the (most of the) men inside the ring to escape.
[Darkover] jennie, lol
[ChristineGolden] And in a previous chapter, Fangorn speaks very harshly about the orcs, so no love lost there.
[Demosthenes] Neither the Huorns, nor the ents, engage in wanton retaliation?
[Demosthenes] Is that an important distinction?
[Xanaseb] maybe Dems, true.
[mib_2hse03] in the departure of boromir, the uruks are described as deliberately going out of there way to destroy trees etc
[ChristineGolden] Well, they’re supposed to be part of the good guys, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Treebeard was going to kill M&P if they turned out to be orcs
[Darkover] Probably. I would hate for either ents or huorns to hold a grudge.
[Demosthenes] jennie: how much do you think this extends to Huorns?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure they’re your thinking man, treewise
[Demosthenes] This ability to discrimminate/select.
[Jenniearcheo] Thus the need for herding
[Demosthenes] This is true!
[Demosthenes] They seem like … angsty teenagers?
[Jenniearcheo] More footsoldier than officer
[Lasak] I think huorns would go against everyone who do them wrong
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s a bit harsh.
[sunshower] not so much
[Jenniearcheo] I think huorns would go against anyone the ents pointed them at
[Jessy] The trees in the Old Forest seemed very huorn-ish, yet they went after hobbits as well.
[Jenniearcheo] Exactly
[Lasak] As seen in the old forrest when the hobbits disturbed them. That must be called huorns
[ChristineGolden] Well, they sat back for a long time watching the orcs desecrate the forests of ME before they did anything, so I don’t think they were too quick to anger.
[mib_2hse03] and old man willow as well
[sunshower] hmm Tom has alot to saw about the trees I think
[Darkover] they aren’t hasty, Chris
[Demosthenes] Is this chapter really about the outcome of trying to control/subjugate nature? What do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] Not without a moot and a decision
[Jenniearcheo] I think the Old Forest guys were freelance
[ChristineGolden] I think this chapter has several themes, Demosthenes, but that’s one of them.
[Demosthenes] lol @ freelance.
[Jessy] Demosthenes: but would the forest have retaliated without the Ents to guide it?
[Darkover] I think Tolkien believed that humans should work with nature, that is an underlying theme in all his work, but IMO this chapter is not devoted exclusively to that idea.
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that it is about controlling nature, more the reasons why we shouldn’t industrialises
[ChristineGolden] agreed
[Jess10] Very interesting notations…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there’s a lot of compare and contrast going on. The isen used to be bright and noisy but theoden says it is now sad and mournful. And then we have the before and after of the vale of isengard. the weedy plain.
[Jenniearcheo] I think that was automatic, Lasak
[mib_2hse03] the downside of industrialisation? why we shouldn’t have a mind of gears
[Jenniearcheo] Not to mention the pits and all
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, the slow decay and wilful destruction are both prominent in this chapter.
[Jenniearcheo] And the smoke
[Darkover] and Theoden blames Saruman in particular, the wizard whom Treebeard said had a mind of metal.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the creepy red-nailed hand
[Demosthenes] Yeah. That was strange. Why is the hand painted red suddenly?
[ChristineGolden] blood
[Demosthenes] I’m still puzzled at what that meant. and who might have done it.
[mib_2hse03] orcs of sauron?
[Lasak] I think saruman did it
[Demosthenes] The blood of orcs? Or was it done by the orcs?
[Jenniearcheo] Did it actually change color as Gandalf rode by, or was that a description of the way it always had been compared to now
[Lasak] he talked about how a white cloak could be colored
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of it as “blood dripping from the hands of the quilty,” aka Saruman.
[Darkover] I agree with Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s symbolic.
[Demosthenes] Now Gandalf rode to the great pillar of the Hand, and passed it: and as he did so the Riders saw to their wonder that the Hand appeared no longer white. It was stained as with dried blood; and looking closer they perceived that its nails were red.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s not clear whether it was white a moment ago or not
[Lasak] It’s dried
[Jenniearcheo] Or just that they’re noticing now
[Darkover] or how neatly, if neat at all, the nails were painted
[mib_2hse03] the idea of seeing what it once was, to what it is now?
[Jenniearcheo] Or if there’s a clear top coat
[Jess10] Hmm…I don’t remember this at all. How interesting.
[Darkover] maybe it got bloody in the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: when the ents threw down the walls?
[Jenniearcheo] It seems to be a sign pointing the way to Isengard. Was it always there?
[mib_2hse03] the ents don’t seem the type to use orc blood to paint hands…
[ChristineGolden] No, Jen, it was white as they approached.
[Jenniearcheo] What, just the nails on a sign?
[Darkover] Possibly, Demosthenes
[mib_2hse03] the huorns though
[Lasak] I still think saruman did, or made someone do it.
[Radagast] The True White Wizard using his power to turn the hand red to show he had at last come to deal with Saruman the fallen Wizard
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think saruman must have put it up when he started getting delusions.
[Darkover] why would he do that, Lasak?
[Demosthenes] That’s what i always felt.
[Darkover] Ok, maybe Radagast is right. Possible.
[Lasak] to show he wasn’t white anymore, that white could change
[sunshower] stained
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . why would it suddenly change as Gandalf rode by? Or is it . . . a “your staff is broken” sort of thing?
[Lasak] for Gandalf
[Demosthenes] A stain on white normally indicates corruption.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf riding by revealed it for the not-pure-white that it really was. Like Saruman himself
[Demosthenes] Symbolically, i mean.
[mib_2hse03] the white light may be broken etc,”many colours”?
[Darkover] Which could be how it is actually perceived, instead of what Saruman–if he put it there–had in mind.
[ChristineGolden] “Suddenly a tall pillar loomed up before them. It was black; and set upon it was a great stone, carved and painted in the likness of a long White Hand.”
[Darkover] or maybe it is orc blood, splattered in battle, after all.
[mib_2hse03] so surely a multi-coloured hand for Saruman of many colours
[Darkover] That is why I wondered how neat, if neat it was, the color/blood appeared on the hand.
[Jenniearcheo] I can’t remember, are Saruman’s robes dingy in the next chapter? No longer white?
[Demosthenes] It’s surely a sign that Saruman has fallen.
[Lasak] isn’t his clothes colored in the next chapter
[Jessy] The red nails show the blood on Saruman’s hands for the war he waged against Rohan?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Jessy. Perhaps that
[Susanita] works for me
[mib_2hse03] sarumans cloak is still changing colour in “the voice of saruman”
[Demosthenes] They looked up, astonished, for they had heard no sound of his coming; and they saw a figure standing at the rail, looking down upon them: an old man, swathed in a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Two chapters ahead. Not one
[Demosthenes] That’s from Voice of Saruman
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it’s broader than that. Saruman had the blood of more than the Rohirrim on his hands.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: of ents … of the dunlendings too. he deceived them.
[Jenniearcheo] Bloody mischief in general
[Demosthenes] And even of the orcs who he enslaved.
[Jenniearcheo] And anyone he sent the uruks after
[Demosthenes] Command responsibility and all that.
[mib_2hse03] I doesn’t look like sarumans cloak changes colour after his staff is broken so I don’t think the hand is changed red by gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I would, mib.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps it’s more revealed than actually changed
[Demosthenes] I think it was the Ents. But … i admit it’s ambiguous.
[Darkover] I very much doubt if Gandalf would bother with changing the color of the hand. He is too busy to engage in symbolism.
[Jenniearcheo] Ents with a bloody paint pot?
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that ents would do it, huorns maybe but not ents
[Demosthenes] jennie: they were really really angry.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Lasak] I don’t see who should have done it
[Fingolfin] He probably did it himself to show he was now ruthless and in league with the enemy
[ChristineGolden] No, as Gandalf the White passes, the false facade of Saruman is stripped away.
[Lasak] YEah, I agree with you fing
[Demosthenes] Especially after … beechbone? … got fried.
[Jenniearcheo] yes. I agree with Chris
[mib_2hse03] maybe the orcs of sauron before they ran away
[miriel] it sounds like the “pureness” got washed away, to me
[sunshower] M&P, tagging things?
[mib_2hse03] the orcs always hated the Uruk-Hai
[sunshower] O.O
[Jessy] Tolkien capitalized the name White Hand when he describes the pillar. That would seem to make it more than symbolic that the hand is no longer white…
[Jenniearcheo] tikatikatika shhhhh
[Demosthenes] A different tack: is Gimli’s monologue about Aglarond the longest one he makes in the entire book?
[mib_2hse03] if it was pureness washing away, wouldn’t sarumans cloak change?
[Lasak] yeah..
[sunshower] long , it certainly is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Demosthenes, but it was certainly one of his most poetic.
[Darkover] Certainly it is the most poetic speech gimli makes, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. I was sorry JRD didn’t get to describe it
[mib_2hse03] no, the poem in the fellowship of the ring on moria, 2 1/2 pages
[miriel] but his cloak was already not-white, at that point, right?
[miriel] saruman of the many colours
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, true. He does go into the Durin poem
[Lasak] It was i think
[Jenniearcheo] But this was something he was coming up with himself. From his own heart
[Lasak] That’s why i belive saruman changed the sign too
[Demosthenes] We see Tolkien write a lot about the beauty of nature … but … usually that’s forests. Here we see a different beauty … but still nature.
[mib_2hse03] it was multi-coloured, surely it would go dull
[Darkover] Gimli’s speech even impresses Legolas
[miriel] dems: the one about what he feared before starting the trip (in farewell to lorien) is loooong
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. So much that he agrees to a visit
[Jess10] Yes
[ChristineGolden] I think he described the beauties of the pastoral Shire pretty well, too, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.
[Demosthenes] (just a part of it)
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure the Rohan Tourism Board would be glad of this chapter. They should set up a dwarven resort
[sunshower] lol
[mib_2hse03] if I remember correctly, doesn’t he start a colony of dwarves there?
[Jess10] Funny
[Demosthenes] jennie: And there’s another comparison to the orcs (and Saruman) … Legolas says he fears that the dwarves would ruin all … but Gimli insists they would only work to enhance or bring forth the natural beauty of the caves.
[Demosthenes] mib: yes, he does.
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice that this is the chapter in which a new ‘fellowship’ is forged?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Dems
[Darkover] Allies are made, Chris, if that is what you mean.
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure there’s even gold or jewels there (or surely the Rohirrim would have mined it?)
[ChristineGolden] More than allies, Darkover.
[sunshower] he did mention jewels I think
[miriel] indeed, legolas was afraid the dwarves would mine the place for the precious gems
[mib_2hse03] gems, crystals and precious ores
[Jenniearcheo] And Gimli said they’d only dig to enhance the caves
[Jessy] Do the Rohirrim mine? I don’t remember anything that suggests that they do.
[Darkover] As if Legolas’ own dad, Thranduil, wasn’t a big believer in gems and gold.
[Jenniearcheo] And light them up for effect
[Lasak] I don’t think so
[Demosthenes] Maybe the men of this land are wise to say little: one family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they made.’
[Demosthenes] ‘No, you do not understand,’ said Gimli. ‘No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin’s race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there.
[miriel] lol, true Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Legolas has inherited his father’s acquisitiveness
[Demosthenes] jennie: i don’t think so either.
[Fingolfin] The people of Rohan were probably not skilled enough or had the best equipment for mining precious gems and metals
[miriel] I wonder if this means that the things that could be found were of little value?
[Demosthenes] Fingolfin: that is possible. Although they did repair the Hornburg.
[mib_2hse03] sounds like galadrial was right when she says that gold and riches will have no sway over gimli
[Darkover] and Dwarves were supposed to be the experts on mining, anyway.
[sunshower] oh, I had a question! —- is Legolas’s talk about paying to not go , or get out of, the caves one of the few (or only) times M-e folks talk about paying for things?
[sunshower] (besides the ponies in Bree)
[miriel] since he specifies that “not if” diamonds and gold could be gotten
[Demosthenes] sunshower: there is currency of a sort in Bree (silver pennies)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, it seems the dwarves were responsible for the mining and most of the metalwork of ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Presumably all the commerce in Esgaroth happens with some sort of coinage
[mib_2hse03] I assume that the rohirrim would use Anglo-Saxon style coinage
[miriel] I guess silver worked as a currency quite well
[Darkover] I’ve always gotten the impression such things were left mostly to them, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Smaug probably isn’t lying on bars
[Fingolfin] Or trading and bartering
[Jessy] Oh, this was lovely, but I have to go. Thanks all!
[miriel] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Jessy
[Darkover] bye, jessy, see you next time!
[Demosthenes] I think sunshower is right tho — it’s one of the few instances where the concept of paying is directly mentioned (as opposed to implied)
[sunshower] I was just a bit surprised to hear an Elf say something like that
[mib_2hse03] do elves use currency or do we think that they use a barter system? maybe similar to utopia
[Demosthenes] The other thing is that elf and dwarf now seem able to appreciate each other’s viewpoints — even if they find them confusing.
[miriel] (off topic, but I wonder if the recovery of the gold in Esgaroth led to inflation….)
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes, and IMO, one of the more important aspects of this chapter.
[mib_2hse03] although that could just be legolas and gimli
[miriel] very important point dems
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure if they’re at “appreciation” yet, Demosthenes, but they’ve reached the point of mutual respect for differing opinions.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that is well put
[Jenniearcheo] They do agree to see each other’s sights
[Jenniearcheo] After it’s all done
[miriel] i think it started in Lorien. but Fighting together for a common goal probably helped
[sunshower] enough appreciation to agree to a sight-seeing trip later, maybe
[Demosthenes] ‘You move me, Gimli,’ said Legolas. ‘I have never heard you speak like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves. Come! Let us make this bargain-if we both return safe out of the perils that await us, we will journey for a while together. You shall visit Fangorn with me, and then I will come with you to see Helm’s Deep.’
[ChristineGolden] Not a meeting of the minds, but an opening of them.
[Jenniearcheo] But they’re not quite at the point of going into the door-building business together
[Demosthenes] An offer.
[mib_2hse03] the two races never really got on, in the silmarillion there is something on the two races never working together
[Demosthenes] It is a bit like Celebrimbor and Narvi.
[Darkover] which is why the friendship of Legolas and Gimli was so remarkable, Mib
[miriel] an offer, that gimli accepts, albeit he might not have been too happy about the Fangorn part
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not be the way of return that I should choose,’ said Gimli. ‘But I will endure Fangorn, if I have your promise to come back to the caves and share their wonder with me.’
[mib_2hse03] imagine If gimli ever entered mirkwood….
[ChristineGolden] There was an estrangement, mib. At one time, many sects of the two were closely involved .
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor and Narvi seem an unusual exception too. The other is probably Eol and the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.
[Demosthenes] But Eol was strange for an elf.
[Jenniearcheo] By this time, wasn’t Mirkwood relatively Mirk-free?
[miriel] mib: he must have, since he travelled from the lonely mountain to rivendell
[ChristineGolden] Eol was strange, period.
[mib_2hse03] the black elf…
[sunshower] kidnapper
[Demosthenes] What /is/ unique is that Legolas was a Telerin (Sindarin) elf, not a Noldo.
[ChristineGolden] No, Jennie, that’s why Legolas went to Rivendell.
[Jenniearcheo] okay
[sunshower] I thought he went to report on Gollum
[mib_2hse03] both
[Fingolfin] Same here
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor was a Noldor … and a craftsman. Legolas isn’t anything like that. Yet here he is extending a hand of friendship.
[Darkover] that too, but Legolas had more than one thing to report.
[mib_2hse03] although with a war from dol guldor I think mirkwood would have got much worse
[sunshower] that Gimli and Legolas thing–may speak alot about Tolkien’s views (which is another conversation)
[Fingolfin] Especially since orcs were able to free gollum from the wood elves
[Demosthenes] Another thought, which brings us to the conversation at the end of the chapter, to what extent are the Hobbits responsible for this friendship?
[Demosthenes] In some ways, Merry and Pippin seem like catalysts to me.
[idril] Gollum was pretty eager to leave the elves… until the orcs took him to Barad-dur later on
[ChristineGolden] Directly? I’d say, not much, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And what about your companions? What about Legolas and me?’ cried Gimli, unable to contain himself longer. ‘You rascals, you woolly-footed and wool-pated truants! A fine hunt you have led us!
[sunshower] the capture of M and P, yes–brought people together
[Lasak] I think thhe hobbits ar very resposible, they are the ones who bring them together
[mib_2hse03] they helped forge the fellowship and lead (not in a good way) to the three hunters which brought legolas and gimli closer
[Demosthenes] ‘You speak for me, Gimli,’ laughed Legolas. ‘Though I would sooner learn how they came by the wine.’
[Darkover] the quest brought them together, Lasak
[miriel] I think the fact that they have friends in common certainly helped
[Jenniearcheo] Well, comparing the relationship now to the way it was the day they left Rivendell . .. they’ve all learned a lot about each other
[Darkover] That is another good thing–hobbits are good and finding and providing food and drink.
[idril] and they had a common goal/enemy
[Darkover] at, not and
[ChristineGolden] If you mean because the hobbits brought them together, yes. If you mean they personally contributed to the friendship, no.
[mib_2hse03] although neither mind that their fathers nearly fought each other in the hobbit….
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that would be a catalyst, i think. By definition.
[ChristineGolden] I think the friendship that formed between the two would be more like going on a long road trip with an acquaintance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps the way hobbits get along with nearly everybody helped Legolas and Gimli reevaluate their ancestral enmity
[ChristineGolden] By the time you get there, you’ll either really dislike or like each other.
[Darkover] True, Chris, hadn’t thought of it that way.
[Demosthenes] In some ways Merry and Pippin were the purpose of the roadtrip
[miriel] also, the hobbits have a very strong “we” feeling, which leads to the other half of the group being “the rest” …in combination with aragorn and boromir being men, the lone dwarf and lone elf must have felt some kind of companionship. Also remember they were both from east of the mountains
[ChristineGolden] Legolas and Gimli do travel together as a pair, esp since Gimli can’t ride a horse.
[sunshower] that particular part of the trip, yes
[sunshower] it was a bit of a detour
[Demosthenes] miriel: that’s a good point too.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, now I’m picturing Legolas riding the motorcycle on our hypothetical road trip, with Gimli in a side car, both with helmets and goggles.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but the hobbits didn’t do anything directly to encourage the friendship: that’s my point.
[sunshower] no, Jenniearcheo!
[idril] lol Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Fingolfin] Because of the ring that frodo received from bilbo legolas and gimli were able to spend months together and bond through dangers and time together even thoughth
[Darkover] and Merry and Pippin chanting, “Road trip! Road trip!”
[miriel] Jenniiiee (lol)
[Fingolfin] They were opposites
[ChristineGolden] and legolas telling gimli to watch that axe around the tires?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Demosthenes] And somehow, the Hobbits are able to charm everyone with just a few words.
[sunshower] and the promise of food
[Demosthenes] ‘Welcome, my lords, to Isengard!’ he said. ‘We are the doorwardens. Meriadoc, son of Saradoc is my name; and my companion, who, alas! is overcome with weariness’ – here he gave the other a dig with his foot – ‘is Peregrin, son of Paladin, of the house of Took.
[Demosthenes] Far in the North is our home. The Lord Saruman is within; but at the moment he is closeted with one Wormtongue, or doubtless he would be here to welcome such honourable guests.’
[Darkover] Maybe because hobbits so seldom have ulterior motives, Demosthenes. Hobbits generally get along with each other, and seem to want other people to get along.
[Fingolfin] I think it was because of the lightness of heart the hobbits possessed
[miriel] very clear that they speak in a more “proper” fashion than is natural to them, sounds a bit silly
[Jenniearcheo] Similar to Thorin’s parting words to Bilbo about appreciating hearth and home. Perhaps M and P cause people to see what’s really important
[Jenniearcheo] And that racial grudges ain’t it
[Xanaseb] proper fashion indeed
[Darkover] What amuses me is how they speak to King Theoden as if he is just an elder, or the Mayor of the Shire–someone they understand is important, but who they are not awed by.
[Demosthenes] Fancy words for a hobbit?
[sunshower] quite
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the quest itself does that, Jenny, stripping things down to their real value.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! they’re very polite, but not obsequieos.
[sunshower] though it sounds like Gandalf had done some coaching on this
[Demosthenes] I misspelled that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they have rather met a lot of important people by now.
[Demosthenes] Compare with the sliminess of Wormtongue.
[miriel] dems: you should have said naught, and I would never have noticed
[Demosthenes] seeya Raurenkili!
[Darkover] Yes, Jennie, but it seems to me that hobbits tend to a natural, if polite, equality with most everyone.
[ChristineGolden] Merry always sounded like he was putting on his “company manners” to me.
[Demosthenes] Merry bowed; and Pippin got up and bowed low. ‘You are gracious, lord; or I hope that I may so take your words,’ he said. ‘And here is another marvel! I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits.’
[Demosthenes] Merry is able to, I guess, elevate his speech a few notches.
[ChristineGolden] I like this particular scene because it plants the seeds for the later attachment formed between Merry and Theoden.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it does that very effectively.
[Demosthenes] And also provides a compare/contrast for Denethor.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[sunshower] oh yeah that is does
[Darkover] Agreed, Demosthenes, I was just thinking that.
[miriel] must be very nice to have encountered someone that knew at least a little about them, probably warmed them up a great deal
[miriel] towards the king
[Darkover] and Theoden *was* polite
[ChristineGolden] for both Denethor and his relationship with Merry’s counterpart, Pippin. A study in contrasts.
[Jenniearcheo] Including an invitation to tell his stories
[Darkover] he expressed an interest in them.
[Demosthenes] I wonder how much of Theoden’s attitude is natural personality, and how mcuh might be Gandalf’s influence?
[Demosthenes] ‘I will come with you,’ said Théoden. ‘Farewell, my hobbits! May we meet again in my house! There you shall sit beside me and tell me all that your hearts desire: the deeds of your grandsires, as far as you can reckon them; and we will speak also of Tobold the Old and his herb-lore. Farewell!’
[ChristineGolden] Theoden’s attitude toward Merry, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] Probably some of both. If Gandalf believes these small folk are important, then by now, Theoden probably realizes they are.
[idril] yes Denethor’s obvious disdain for Faramir (and his blame of him killing his wife) really shows how Theoden reacts to deaths in his life
[sunshower] Thoeden who took in his neice and nephew? probably the *real* him
[Demosthenes] It doesn’t seem “mere” politeness.
[Jenniearcheo] Some, I think, is mere fascination
[Darkover] Plus, I think the Rohirrim are less formal and full of themselves than are the nobility of Gondor.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Because of his knowledge of history?
[ChristineGolden] I think the two just naturally clicked, as people sometimes do.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yet in some ways their respect for the heroic outweighs that of Gondor.
[Darkover] Good point, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Because he’s a legendary Halfling. One of those weird things of ancient fairytales like the ents, but who is willing to chat
[mib_d3m6e1] hi all guys
[Demosthenes] Eorl the Young is a figure of … myth almost. Helm Hammerhand is larger than life.
[Lasak] hi mib
[Darkover] True, Jennie, who wouldn’t be interested under those circumstances.
[Demosthenes] You don’t get that sense so much from Gondor where history is just history?
[Demosthenes] “just”
[sunshower] arrogance vs. humilty?
[ChristineGolden] faded glory
[idril] good summary, sunshower
[Dwyna] growth vs stagnation
[Jenniearcheo] The confidence of stone walls vs. the practical knowledge that you have to keep your weapons sharp and your horses hale?
[Demosthenes] Something like that.
[Darkover] or maybe just that the Rohirrim are a younger culture than the Gondorians, and so manifest their beliefs and history in different ways.
[Jenniearcheo] Despite the Hornburg, they live in the exposed town on the hilltop
[Dwyna] Rohan still has a sense of change¦ Gondor is stagnant¦ dying?
[ChristineGolden] You have Theoden riding out to do battle; Denethor sends out others to do his fighting.
[Demosthenes] I think gondor is weighed down by its history. Rohan is buoyed up by theirs … and that accounts for Thoeden’s attitude to new things? Here, it’s hobbits and ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Edoras isn’t as impregnable as Minas Tirith. And certainly the outlying villages aren’t
[Demosthenes] It’s a theory anyhow.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, to be fair, remember Denethor’s “I can still wield a brand”?
[Lasak] Intresting
[Lasak] haven’t thought about this before
[sunshower] Gondor has to uphold tradition?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting, Dems
[sunshower] Rohan’s still in the making?
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, but not in battle, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: A bit like Mervyn Peake’s Gormenghast if you’ve ever read that.
[Darkover] That’s the idea behind this weekly discussion, Lasak–sometimes we learn other POVs
* sunshower says whosit’s what’sit?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Gondor’s decline is emblematic of its lack of a king and the decline of the stewards.
[Darkover] Most definitely, Chris
[Demosthenes] Denethor says something like “i would have things as they were in the days of my youth.” he doen’t want change.
[Dwyna] lack of humility and an insistence that no one is good enough to help?
[sunshower] maintain the status quo at all cost
[Darkover] Certainly, he doesn’t want to hand over power to his old rival, Thorongil
[Demosthenes] The hobbits bowed low. ‘So that is the King of Rohan!’ said Pippin in an undertone. ‘A fine old fellow. Very polite.’
[Darkover] “The Road to Isengard” chapter, Marco
[ChristineGolden] I also like the way Tolkien lays the foundation for the question, “what was longbottom leaf doing in Isengard and how did it get here?”
[Demosthenes] I like their summary of theoden
[Darkover] That turns out to be quite significant, at least to the future of the hobbits and the Shire, Chris
[sunshower] a fine old fellow, indeed
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Like he was some old gaffer
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: one could say … not essential to plot … yet it builds the sense of realness aobut the world.
[idril] i forgot about Thorongil! you wonder if Denethor when he heard of “the ranger from the north’s” coming and figured that it was him
[ChristineGolden] The exchange between the hobbits and Gimli was minor, but later turned out to be very significant.
[Jenniearcheo] smoking!!
[Darkover] I think it is a safe bet that he did, idril. The appendices seem to support that idea.
[sunshower] and feasting?
[ChristineGolden] But it was, Demosthenes, if you remember the Scouring of the Shire.
[Demosthenes] But the history of longbottom leaf?
[Darkover] Yes, I was really disappointed that PJ left out the Scouring of the Shire, even if it would have added another hour or two to the last movie.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, with the love of history
[ChristineGolden] No, I was referring to the hobbits discovering pipeweed in Isengard.
[Demosthenes] What is a world but its history?
[Darkover] As I recall, only Aragorn picked up on the significance of that, Chris. He realized it was not a sign of anything good.
[idril] Saruman’s connections with the Shire laid a foundation for him coming and making himself “the Boss”
[ChristineGolden] [looking at Darkover and biting my fingers.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: but we don’t really /need/ to know about tobold hornblower first planting pipeweed in 1070 SR.
[Demosthenes] It’s minutiae.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, at this point. I was just commenting on how Tolkien slips “little things” into a scene that later turn out to be game-changers.
[Darkover] No, but as Gandalf would observe, hobbits can talk about such minutiae for hours, Demosthenes.
[miriel] but it is a fun fact
[Susanita] good writing
[Demosthenes] And it builds the world for us.
[Darkover] Right, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn and Co. had spent a certain amount of time keeping The Shire sequestered away from the rest of the world. That Longbottom Leaf is out of the Shire, and in such a worrying place, is ominous
[Darkover] Quite so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I think the “history of pipeweed” bit was simply to create some dialogue between Theoden and Merry that would lead to their friendship. It’s the discovery of pipeweed in Isengard that’s important.
[Demosthenes] jennie: that is something that emerges later, yeah.
[Demosthenes] Yet the details create verisimiltude.
[Demosthenes] A lived-in universe.
[idril] its the little details and histories that create the “super-epic-legacy-full of-things-you-might-see-in-a-history book-in-Numenor’s-libraries” feel to his books
[ChristineGolden] I also thought it was sooooo typical for Merry to be the one on guard, watching for the visitors, while Pippin’s crashed out from ‘too much fun.’
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[idril]
[Demosthenes] Merry is the older more responsible one.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and that little moment highlights the difference between the two, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] I only have one last talking point. And that’s … Aragorn is really subdued in this chapter. He’s present but says extraordinarily little. It’s as though he’s gone back to being Strider.
[idril] if you call stealing vegetables from farmer maggot’s garden responsible, then yes
[Demosthenes] If only for a day or two.
[Darkover] “Look! Strider the Ranger is back!”
[Darkover] as Pippin said
[Susanita] trying not to step on Theoden’s toes?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes. that is next chapter.
[Demosthenes] suse: possibly?
[Jenniearcheo] Merry’s a little cheeky, telling Gandalf he hasn’t delivered the message because he’s been pestered by questions. From a King!
[Demosthenes] Letting Gandalf take the lead?
[Darkover] Aragorn isn’t in charge here at the moment, and I think he knows that, and is just lending a helping hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry, took me a minute to find that
[Jenniearcheo] He’s observing
[Jenniearcheo] As is his wont
[sunshower] costume change time
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh yes. he is rather pert there.
[ChristineGolden] He’s not ready to assume his kingship yet; he is still just the heir to Gondor. So, of course, he would defer to a crowned king.
[Darkover] Especially in that king’s own kingdom, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: and Gandalf is the chief counsellor of Theoden right now.
[Demosthenes] So maybe that’s why.
[Jenniearcheo] And with Gandalf back in charge, for now
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and Aragorn has always deferred to Gandalf’s judgment, so it makes sense to me.
[Demosthenes] A good leader knows when to stop managing?
[Demosthenes] Aragorn figures he can stop managing right now.
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had led the Fellowship until he fell. The period where Aragorn had to make all the decisions was a bit of a trial run for leading. Perhaps it’s with some relief he hands over the reins.
[ChristineGolden] Besides, it gives Tolkien the opportunity to deepen the bond between Aragorn and Eomer, which will be important later.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps Gandalf is seeing how easily he does hand them over. Or whether it sits well with him.
[Demosthenes] And we get legolas and gimli instead.
[Darkover] I think that is a bit much, Jennie. Aragorn has led plenty of people many times in other places. He is probably used to it, but he is not someone who would usurp another’s rightful authority, IMO.
[Jenniearcheo] oh, I’m sure he’s not chomping at the bit to lead here
[Darkover] Have we covered about everything in this chapter?
[sunshower] Strider needs a break!
[Jenniearcheo] But he was rather gnawing on his nails through the chase
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we’ve done pretty well.
[sunshower] did we leave out the 42 reference
[Darkover] As always, Demosthenes. And this has been enjoyable as usual, but it is late where I am, and I’m getting a bit hungry
[Darkover] So, anything more to discuss?
[Demosthenes] Okay, I think we’re done for the week.
[ChristineGolden] Bye, Darkover. See you next time.
[Esther] I’m glad I just ate
[Demosthenes] Next weekend … probably some trailer dissection.
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Susanita] good ideer dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Until then!
[idril] Bye guys!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone for coming along!
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems
[Jess10] This was neat, thanks guys!
[Demosthenes] You’re all v welcome.
[idril] Great discussion!
[sunshower] thanks dems
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic next week: Oh just some Hobbit trailer yano? | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Jun 16 09:43:50 2013

The House That Bilbo Built: Tolkien’s Literary Legacy
by Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway

Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien have a distinctly creative way of expressing what they like; and perhaps that is the very quality that makes them the greatest fandom to propagate a literary phenomenon. It has been said there’s Life within the words of a great book. The ultimate expression of that can be seen in the inspired individual who builds his Life from the words. Those are the types of fans who carry their love so strongly forward, into bookstores and cineplexes alike, that everyone gets swept up. Their friends and children inevitably receive the books from them when the time comes; each parent, with a knowing smile, handing the key to Middle-earth to their young ones. I sometimes wonder what Professor Tolkien would think of ‘The House That Bilbo Built:’ a wave of cultural influence and entertainment begotten by the high romantic world he invented, along with so many original languages and alphabets, such a long time ago.

Talk about longevity! THE HOBBIT just celebrated its 75th anniversary. First published in 1937, well before the first volume of THE LORD OF THE RINGS came out (1954), the whimsical adventure of the diminutive Bilbo Baggins stands as a giant among 20th century fiction. Certainly few other books sustain the same revolving fandom over decades. I don’t believe in the least that TWILIGHT or THE HUNGER GAMES will have this measure of adoration in 75 years (but POTTER damn well might). Don’t underestimate how beloved and emulated Tolkien’s books are to a surprisingly different quilt of nations, regions, and times. The world’s appetite for Tolkien’s uniquely rich fantasy storytelling caused the actual “Fantasy” section to appear in bookstores; a niche market broadened tremendously, a statement was made to the publishing industry, and there was certainly no going back. Elves, Hobbits, Wizards, Goblins and Dragons were here to stay.

So much of my own creative life has sprung from my love of Tolkien and willingly have I swam the subculture that embraces his work. Ringer fans are counted among the best of friends and talents I’ve had the pleasure to meet. They never cease to surprise me in their endless originality. Interviewing them for our documentary, RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS got me really up-close; and I take joy in exploring this never-ceasing question: why are these readers so deeply connected to Bilbo’s and Frodo’s story? Why does this phenomenon keep expressing itself in the desire for cosplay, spontaneous music, academic symposiums, boisterous conventions, movie adaptations, and profuse indulgence in second breakfasts? I keep asking through all my interviews and meetings and moots; yet the answer is mercurial.

And what humble, delicate beginnings for a behemoth like THE LORD OF THE RINGS! Let’s take a look at Tolkien’s remarkable publishing history, and thence pop cultural history, because it almost didn’t happen, for many reasons.

Tolkien started off developing the languages, and the foundational cosmological basis for his “secondary world,” while he was still a youngling in college, earning a degree in English Language & Literature. Then World War I arrived with death and disruption. Tolkien survived unwounded but his friends did not – he was medically discharged himself with trench fever. While on sick-leave in 1917 his wife Edith assisted him with hand-copying one of his earliest tales: “The Fall of Gondolin,” a fictional wandering that would ultimately become part of THE SILMARILLION (in fact, much of the content of THE SIL was created in Tolkien’s earlier years).

He was to become an Oxford philologist, dedicating his scholarly life to the study of languages. What better way to explore them than inventing your own! There’s a term for it: glossopoeia. As explained by TORn staff contributor Ostadan: “The word glossopoeia is a coinage derived from Greek, meaning ‘the making of tongues.’ As Tolkien explains, the creation of languages offers both intellectual and aesthetic satisfaction, but at the time he wrote, there were few such creations known to the public.”

By 1917 he was on his way to inventing Quenya and Sindarin – Elvish languages yet to be uttered by Orlando Bloom. Tolkien toyed with bits of poetry and his own slant on languages that he fancied (Finnish, Old Norse, Welsh), an effort which, oh-so-gradually over forty years, became an entire universe. He was also intent on creating a new mythology for England, which he felt lacked its own panorama of deities and “epicness” as Norway did. So THE HOBBIT was begun somewhere around 1930-31 (Tolkien recalls scribbling on a blank sheet of paper while marking examination papers, ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’).

In 1936 Sir Stanley Unwin of Allen & Unwin Publishers got his 10-year-old son Rayner on board as the first ‘early reviewer,’ believing a child was the best judge of children’s fiction. Rayner loved it and wrote a glowing report, describing it as ‘very exciting.’ So THE HOBBIT launched in September 1937, to considerable acclaim and boffo sales.

Sir Stanley quickly asked for a sequel; and the Professor sent them THE SILMARILLION, a woefully different ball of wax, with oddments of archaic manuscripts, a dense mine of data about Middle-earth’s pre-history, genealogies and somewhat biblical-style tracts that didn’t suit anyone’s taste at the publisher’s office. They wanted something with furry feet and gentle appeal.

Saying politely, “No thanks, but give us more material akin to THE HOBBIT,” they received in 1937 the first chapter Tolkien could manage – “A long expected party,” which reveled in much more hobbity sensibilities. The publishers loved what they read. But in so small an act can the hand of destiny be changed. The writing of the damn thing spiraled entirely out of control.

Tolkien felt endless pressure but wrote to Sir Stanley: “The work has escaped from my control and I have produced a monster.” This new epic was to take nearly 13 years, some say 17, during which time he held a chair at Oxford; and then, quick as you can say schnell, World War II arrived. THE LORD OF THE RINGS was finally finished in 1949. Tolkien was nigh 60 years old.

Over those years Tolkien had become quite miffed at Allen & Unwin for saying “no” to THE SILMARILLION. In 1949 he got entangled in a lengthy flirtation with Collins Publishers, hoping a new relationship would yield a home for his greatest effort.

He eventually went back to Allen & Unwin under terms of a new agreement: they would indeed publish THE LORD OF THE RINGS, even though there was a critical paper shortage during wartime. Sir Stanley did not take on THE SILMARILLION, either, another stroke against it (after Tolkien died it finally saw print in 1977, thanks to his son Christopher’s tireless efforts).

The decision to split LOTR into three volumes left the Professor rather unhappy. But he settled on the main title as THE LORD OF THE  RINGS, with sub-titles for three distinct volumes (containing two “Books” each)– THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, THE TWO TOWERS and THE RETURN OF THE KING. He would much rather it had been THE WAR OF THE RING, which he sensed would reveal much less of the actual plot, but that didn’t stick.

It was the High Summer of 1954 – Bill Haley and His Comets would rock around the clock, just as Frodo Baggins made the scene in Volume 1 of LOTR; then Volumes 2 and 3 would arrive later in 1955.

The first wave of fandom simply ate up copies regardless of its mixed reviews. Tolkien’s good friend (and fellow Inkling) C.S. Lewis came to the books’ spirited defense, declaring famously: “Here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron. Here is a book which will break your heart.” W.H. Auden also lauded: “No fiction I have read in the last five years has given me more joy.”

Steady sales and continued profits were nice, but when the American counterculture embraced THE LORD OF THE RINGS some ten years later it really skyrocketed. Over a few months time in 1966, THE LORD OF THE RINGS became a campus craze and books were seen everywhere through dormitory halls – even the University of Southern California Irvine Campus had a housing section renamed a lá Middle-earth. Causing admiration and titters alike (depending on your level of fandom) 1700 students to this day lounge in halls with such names as “Rivendell” or “Quenya.” The first and strongest wave of Western pop culture, the hippie movement, was staking its claim on how Tolkien was perceived and enjoyed by a broadly literate youth generation. Then there was the scandal of the “bootleg paperback version” of LOTR that were completely unauthorized (the guilty party being ACE Paperbacks) but that was resolved with the support of students/fans protesting booksellers who carried ACE and thus a new Ballentine edition was soon printed with Tolkien’s note on the back cover — much of this fuss we cover in greater detail in our documentary.

Then the Rock & Rollers picked up the books. An entire section of the RINGERS film covers that dynamic period where Tolkien unwittingly affected musicians of the time. Marc Bolan (of T-Rex) and David Bowie hit the underground “Middle-earth Club” on the seedy side of London. Connect the musical dots to Led Zeppelin; whose albums are rife with LOTR references and characters due to Robert Plant’s fertile affection for Tolkien’s books. I had a revealing chat with director Cameron Crowe who confessed: “Oh you’ve got to talk with my wife Nancy (Wilson of Heart), because she just loves it!” Then there was Geddy Lee (Rush), and nowadays we have Justin Timberlake – hardcore Ringers one and all.

Tolkien was uncomfortable with the explosion of attention. He was a tweedy Oxford don, after all, and wanted nothing to do with the drug-addled young people tramping across his rose garden and peeping into his windows while he worked. He once called them “my deplorable cultus.” After his death in 1973, and the posthumous publication of THE SILMARILLION, the wave of pop surrounding Bilbo and Frodo became a unique beast of another color.

The holiday animation company Rankin/Bass (yes, the folks who did stop-motion Rudolph and Frosty) brought us THE HOBBIT in less than 90 minutes of Japanese-produced 2D glory in 1977. Then Ralph Bakshi rotoscoped his drop-acid take on the first half of LOTR, but he never got to make his finale. Yet the fantasy explosion of the Eighties was off to a roaring start. Tolkien fueled all this, without dispute, and up sprang authors like David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Stephen R. Donaldson, and Marion Zimmer Bradley. Someone with a polyhedral die and several pages of Middle-earthy maps invented a pen & paper game that you might vaguely recall. And you can bet your Muggle face that J.K. Rowling was devouring the Professor’s books at the time, storing it all away for future inspiration.

Enter onto the 1990′s digital stage TheOneRing.net – an online fan community affectionately known as TORn – the largest, longest-running, all-volunteer web portal unique to a single fandom. As contributors to TORn, we spend our energy reporting news, presenting special panels coast-to-coast at massive Comic-Cons and Dragon*Cons, moderating forums, chat rooms, and Facebook timelines with an endless flow of fans who collide as much as confer. We produced three gobsmacking Oscar Parties just for Ringers, one event yearly for each of Peter Jackson’s sprawling films, which were attended by the trophy-bearing cast and crew. On the year of THE RETURN OF THE KING’s 11-Oscar sweep, the Kiwi filmmakers were especially eager to greet the grassroots fan audience that so avidly showed them three years of love (and repeat ticket sales). We also produced a hellzapoppin’ Oscar event for the HOBBIT: AUJ in 2013, providing a unique atmosphere for aficionados to celebrate a shared affection for Tolkien with creators from behind the camera.

Now the newest excursion into Tolkien’s legendarium is upon us with the late 2012 release of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY. Not to mention the attendant merchandising and collectibles now flooding the market. Jackson and his team of film artisans surmounted terrific odds to return all the familiar players to New Zealand. The anticipation has left most fans breathless; while many purists may bemoan the stretching of an episodic 280-page children’s story into 3 extra long films. The level of involvement among fans hasn’t lessened, instead reaching a new zenith by way of shared electronic media.

On our weekly live webcast aptly named “TORn Tuesday,” actors and artists ranging from Sean Astin to Peter S. Beagle join me for a merry discussion of how THE LORD OF THE RINGS has impacted their lives. They definitively illuminate how Tolkien remains so relevant. These artists have lived and breathed the magic of Middle-earth in myriad ways. Nearly 60 years later Tolkien’s masterworks have reached countless millions; and there’s a vibrant community online that supports many great events and causes, all sharing the same literary joy. I’ve never witnessed another phenomenon like it. A shared passion for the Professor’s 1200 page opus is the very liferoot of it all.

As I said, Ringer fans really do know what they like.

Much too hasty,

‘Quickbeam’

Clifford Broadway

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Clifford Broadway, longtime contributor and webhost for TheOneRing.net, is co-author of the bestseller “The People’s Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien” (2003) and co-writer/producer of the award-winning RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS (Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, 2005).

Follow us on Twitter:

TheOneRing.net @theoneringnet

Cliff Scott Broadway @Quickbeam2000

This thing went nuts with 200,000 views in 7 hours! With a busy Facebook timeline like ours at TheOneRing.net, it is always cool to see what stands out as a favorite popular post.  Today’s image of Aragorn having a fun soliloquy about the day we STOP loving The Lord of the Rings became our most widely-seen and mega shared post of the year!

So why are fans so quickly drawn to a declarative statement like: “Other Fandoms may ebb and flow, but Tolkien fans are committed to these stories for life?” Quickbeam has pondered that very thing: and here is his article from this week, above

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Okay, that’s a bit of hyperbole. But there is an underlying truth — they are irritating.

Why? Because anyone saying “X is the new Tolkien” or “Y is a masterpiece worthy of Tolkien” is, frankly, almost certainly full of it.

The problem is that — just like me at the start of this piece — they are indulging in hyperbole. And yes, I’m looking at you Time Magazine and Lee “George RR Martin is the American Tolkien” Grossman.

That’s not to say I believe that George RR Martin writes drivel. Far from it, I devoured all five A Song of Ice and Fire books in three weeks and found each book thoroughly engrossing. I really enjoyed the knife-edge politics, the interplay of competing agendas, and the unremitting, Hobbesian brutality of Westeros.

For me, the last is a great part of the appeal.

It’s refreshing to encounter an author who is unafraid to dispose of key characters. You viscerally fear for the continued existence of the protagonists as they lurch from crisis to crisis.

And it has an epic sweep of events that spans continents, while hinting at a larger and deeper history.

Yet Tolkien in depth it is not.

Not remotely Tolkienesque

Anne Hobson in her piece in The Spectator does an excellent job of demolishing this argument. I’ll re-quote what I feel is the key part:

Tolkien’s creation displays a sense of depth yet unrivaled in the fantasy genre. In this way, Lord of the Rings is to Game of Thrones as the Atlantic Ocean is to Lake Michigan. In contrast to the invention of Martin’s world, which is secondary to his plotline, Tolkien built his reality from the ground up starting with languages. A famed Oxford philologist, Tolkien created more than twenty unique languages. For Tolkien, language was the building blocks that made up the fabric of his mythology:

“What I think is a primary ‘fact’ about my work, that it is all of a piece, and fundamentally linguistic in inspiration [...] The invention of languages is the foundation. The ‘stories’ were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows.”

It’s worth reinforcing this point.

Although RR Martin’s world-building is excellent, it still lacks the ground-up solidity of Tolkien’s Legendarium. It’s missing Tolkien’s deep feeling of — for want of a better word — historicity (historical authenticity).

In the appendices to the Lord of the Rings alone, Tolkien gives us a historical timeline of the world, a precis of key historical events and figures — not a few of whom play any role whatsoever in the novel itself. There are two different language scripts and notes on pronunciation. There are notes on languages, on the fictitious translation of the original Red Book of Westmarch, and multiple calendars with extensive thoughts about how they inter-relate and overlap.

How is Shire Reckoning descended from the Numenorean calendar? You’ll find the answer in Appendix D. Does the existence of either affect the plot? Not in the slightest as far as I can tell (though I do understand the dates given throughout Rings do precisely correspond with the various phases of the moon that are mentioned in the book itself), but the investment of effort for Tolkien to derive each must have been enormous.

A couple of weekends ago, we dived into the big battle of The Two Towers as we discussed Helm’s Deep (Book III, Chapter VII) in Hall of Fire.

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 15 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be moving onto the next chapter as we examine the events of The Road to Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Jun 02 07:33:34 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for this weekend: Helm’s Deep | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay, we might as well get started. Latecomers can catch up.
[Puma] okie
[ChristineGolden] Okay, back.
[esther] ok
[Stozzi] ok boss man :3
[Eruanna] Okay
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to note that this chapter is much shorter than the preceding one?
[Puma] all battle chapters in lotr are short
[Demosthenes] Yeah. And that’s really rather interesting.
[esther] I have to be honest, I haven’t gotten to Two Towers yet, so I really only know the movie battle scene
[Puma] i dont think jrr wanted to dwell on the battle itself
[Demosthenes] You get some (pulp) fantasy novelists who base their entire works around battle and hack n slash. But not Tolkien.
[esther] probably not Puma
[Puma] also…..jrr did one battle in detail……the nirnaeth in the sil…i dont think he thought he could top that
[Ingie] nirnaeth is hardly toppable hello, by the way
[esther] that’s Silmarillion right Puma?
[Puma] and also as a vet….i am sure battles did not bring back good memories
[Demosthenes] Do you think we still get the feel of “war buddies” coming through though?
[Puma] yes esther
[Demosthenes] As in, friendship forged in the crucible of war.
[esther] I have to get some more Tolkien books
[Puma] i think we see that…jrr made that point.big friendships werwe forged in this chapter
[esther] I believe so Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt after his experiences in WWI, Tolkien was interested in guts and gore.
[esther] I agree
[Eruanna] I think so, like with Eomer and Aragorn they often say they want to ride into battle together
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i wonder at that also… and that might explain the conciseness of this chapter.
[Puma] yes Eruanna
[Puma] but also eomer and gimli
[Demosthenes] puma: Eomer and Aragorn … Legolas and Gimli?
[Erestel] And of course, Legolas and Gimli with their kill-count game.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] To some extent Theoden and Aragorn also.
[esther] Legolas and Gimli became fast friends during battle
[Puma] but legolas and gimli were not together in the battle
[Demosthenes] Though perhaps that is more a commander/chief advisor role?
[Puma] they were friends since lorien
[Demosthenes] s/role/relationship
[Ingie] the characters don’t really perceive the battles as bloody and gory mess, do they?
[Stozzi] i liked the challenge that legolas and gimli had through out that battle , counting how many orcs they’d killed
[Ingie] it’s more of a simple good/evil contest
[Eruanna] I think their friendship was strengthened in the battle
[Puma] not really.lots of greys
[Puma] legolas and gimli were not together during the battle!!
[esther] Ingie I don’t think they saw the battles as bloody messes, I think they saw it for what it was, saving their world
[Demosthenes] Ingie: no, you see that more from the perspective of the hobbits. Sam with the Easterling. And Merry and Pippin’s perspective at the Pelennor.
[Puma] i dont think they saw it as saving the world……just survive the battle
[esther] I agree with Demosthenes, Ingie
[Demosthenes] And that’s an interesting dualism too. Helm’s Deep gets very much a heroic, broad brush portrayal. Rather than a gritty, realistic one.
* Puma nods
[ChristineGolden] That had to have been a very bloody battle, ester, with axes and swords. I think Tolkien preferred to dwell on other aspects.
[Eruanna] Puma, from memory I think they say to people to tell the other how many they’ve killed and also ask if they have seen them
[Darkover] Mae govannen, Chris and everyone!
[Puma] but did you all notice…..when gandalf left the riders….he knew the ents were at isengard
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Demosthenes and Puma!
[Darkover] What are we discussing?
[esther] of course he wanted to concentrate on something other then the battles
[Puma] legolas saw the shadow coming to isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Stozzi] Yes cause gandalf spoke with the ents, when treebread had merry and pippen right?
[Demosthenes] Helm’s Deep. And … the heroic nature of the battle in its portrayal.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover!
[Puma] also the battles of the fords of isen contribute to this chapter…as the end parts of that in UT.took place at the same time
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[ChristineGolden] What do you mean by ‘heroic,’ Demosthenes?
[esther] Hi Baumbart
[Darkover] Hey, Baumbart
[Demosthenes] If i wanted to pick some elements that I think reinforce that feeling most, I’d pick the charge of Theoden at the end, and the horn of helm and its effect on the opposing host of orcs.
[esther] as the heroic part?
[Puma] i think of aragorn standing on the ramparts…and warning the uruks and dunlendings
[ChristineGolden] Okay, I agree with those ones, but I didn’t really think the chapter was ‘heroic’ in the traditional sense.
[esther] what is “heroic” in the traditional sense
[Puma] that is why jrr was so good.he is not traditional
[Demosthenes] puma: yes, that is an odd parley as well.
[Darkover] I personally like it when Aragorn and Eomer draw swords together–for the first time, I believe
[ChristineGolden] Medieval, ester, as in knights in shining armor, etc.
[esther] well I guess I’m more into non-traditional
[Ingie] also, there wasn’t the conflict of slaughtering the dunlendings (while the haradrim were shown to be real humans worth of pity)… so once again, balck/white heroism here. No ambiguity
[Puma] i know people always think of rohan as medieval.jrr said it was not
[Ingie] because the dunlendings weren’t really mentioned, at least not their deaths
[brennil] we don’t need knights in shining armer…Rangers in cloaks work better
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t sat that Rohan was medieval, Puma. I was speaking of the battle itself.
[Puma] well no Ingie.the dunlendings surrendered and were given terms and released
[Darkover] If we wanted shades of gray, Ingie, we would probably read modern novels. Personally, I like the fact that in a fairy tale, good and evil are pretty clear-cut
[esther] I agree Brennil I prefer rangers over knights
[Erestel] The Silmarillion had plenty of grey characters, but that’s another discussion.
[esther] I agree Darkover, I love fairy tales for being so clear
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover, with people having to take a stand for one or the other. And nothing does that more than a battle.
[Puma] lotr all the characters are grey
[Darkover] True, Chris and Esther
[Darkover] just the cloaks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Ingie] I love lotr and the good/evil contest simply saying that this is not the case of gritty realistic war
[Puma] nope.people
[Darkover] and the occasional wizard
[esther] lol true it is the cloaks that are grey
[brennil] gritty realistic war is more about greed than good/evil
[Puma] so do you all see the contest between legolas and gimli as to who killed the most…an enviable trait
[esther] I agree again Brennil, real war is about greed
[Demosthenes] puma: It has a sort of gallows humour about it.
[ChristineGolden] No, ester, all wars are about power at their roots. Even the one we’re supposed to be talking about.
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] Aragorn never counted
[brennil] nope, Puma. I see the pity and little bloodlust more enviable
[Darkover] Frankly, Puma, I don’t have a problem with it. When the enemy is knocking down your door, trying to kill innocent people, I frankly don’t blame someone who takes a bit of pride in how many he has killed
[Demosthenes] It’s the sort of things soldiers in the trenches might do to try and stop themselves going mad.
[Darkover] If that is bloodthirsty, then pass the Type O
[Puma] just making a point….no person in lotr is “perfect”
[Elemmire] lol
[Elemmire] its true though
[esther] well Chris at least there’s a clear line between good and evil in fantasy, the the real world its not so clear
[ChristineGolden] Patton’s men nailed the ears of German soldiers they had killed to posts.
[Xanaseb] ouch
[ChristineGolden] Really, ester? Because I can think of a list of wars that were between good and evil.
[Puma] and was that “good” Christine?
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking of fighter and bomber squadrons that would mark kills on the fuselages of their planes.
[brennil] they were already dead, Xanaseb
[ChristineGolden] I think so, Puma, but ymmv.
[Xanaseb] still brutal.
[Xanaseb] in anycase
[brennil] I think the lack of respect for enemies shown after death is not a good thing
[Xanaseb] indeed
[Darkover] And I’ve heard of soldiers, in many wars, who would put notches on their rifles for every enemy they killed. It doesn’t shock me.
[Puma] i think jrr was making the point that war is brutal…..and people do things that are normally not in character
[Elemmire] I agree with demosthenes, it does seen like a way of keeping focussed on something
[Xanaseb] indeed Puma.
[esther] in the real world, there aren’t any wars nowadays that have a fine line between good and evil, but that’s just my own opinion, no one has to agree with me
[Elemmire] agree, puma
[brennil] good point Puma and Elemmire
[Darkover] Probably, Elemmire
[Demosthenes] No, I’m not at all shocked. How do we know that Von Ritchofen was the best flying ace in WWI? Someone kept count.
[Eruanna] I think that on ships they used to put notches in cannons for how many battles they were in… or something similar
[Puma] oh.its not shocking.thats the point.was is brutal and people do things not really to be proud about
[Elemmire] So, we can conclude lots of people did it
[Puma] war is brutal
[Darkover] It seems to me that in war, people do what they have to do, and never having been in combat myself, I am not going to judge anyone who keeps a tally or the like, if it helps them get through it.
[Demosthenes] That being said, it is possibly more notable that Aragorn /does not/ keep count.
[Demosthenes] Why do you think?
[Darkover] Maybe he stopped counting long ago, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] and aragorn probaly killed more than legoalas and gimli
[brennil] he is quite old
[esther] that was interesting to me, that Aragorn never kept count
[brennil] and Legolas and Gimli were having “friendly” competition
[Puma] Aragorn is way younger than either legolas or gimli
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one possibility. he seems to have fought for both rohan and gondor in his youth.
[Darkover] And has fought many battles, for Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[brennil] :s oh. miscaculation.
[Darkover] Is Aragorn younger than Gimli?
[Elemmire] well, we don’t know that he never counted…he just didn’t make light of it as legolas and gimli did
[Puma] yes
[Puma] by many yrs
[esther] yes everyone in all the realms seem to know Aragorn way before the time of LOTR
[Elemmire] it is probable that legolas has been in many battles, given how old he is
[Erestel] Yes, Darkover. I think Gimli was around 160 years old during The Lord of the Rings.
[Puma] gimli was 62 in 2941 when aragorn was 10 in the hobit
[Xanaseb] I know this might sound silly, but maybe it is done in a more humorous way?.. that they are counting usually brings a smile to the reader’s face.. .. I think we might be thinking a little too much into this
[Xanaseb] IMO.
[Darkover] Possibly, Xanaseb
[Puma] agreed Xana
[Demosthenes] Aragorn also has more of a commander’s responsibilities here.
[Elemmire] Yeah, I think that it can be seen either way
[Erestel] My mistake, Gimli was 140.
[Demosthenes] He virtually acts as Theoden’s second in command
[Darkover] Also very true, Demosthenes
[Puma] well…..no.he was just a knight serving theoden
[Demosthenes] Eomer defers to him
[Darkover] And Aragorn props up Theoden’s morale, as I recall
[ChristineGolden] afk
[brennil] mutual respect?
[Puma] again aragorn and eomer were separated at the major part of the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he does seem to do that.
[Elemmire] A lot of that, of course being Aragorn being who he is
[Darkover] Agreed, Elemmire
[Elemmire] if anyone understood that…
[Eruanna] Perhaps Theoden sees him as a king or a rightful one and therefore respected him and saw him as an equal
[Elemmire] Aragorn does have tha bility to make people follow him but would they have, if they didn’t know who he was
[Darkover] I understand it to mean that Aragorn is a leader, and that is obvious in his conduct, although he never tries to overrule or overreach King Theoden
[Puma] this chapter also forges what will be a lifelong bond between aragorn and eomer
[Elemmire] *the ability
[Darkover] Right, puma
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] Darkover: he does defer to Theoden’s right to command his men. One wonders whether he doubted Theoden’s decision to ride out at the dawn.
[Puma] Aragorn understood the minds of the rohirrim.as he had been among them b4
[Elemmire] uh…I have a question
[Demosthenes] sure
[Darkover] If he did doubt it, he seems to have kept it to himself
[ChristineGolden] fussy baby – maybe I’ll have better luck next week. gotta go~ ~ ~
[Darkover] bye, Chris
[Darkover] ask away, Elemmire
[Xanaseb] go ahead Elemmire.
[Erestel] We’re all ears.
[Elemmire] The men of Rohan are referred to as many things, Rohirrim, Eorlingas etc. Is there any difference in these terms and, if so, can someone explain please?
[Puma] they all mean horse people
[Darkover] Didn’t rohirrim mean “horse lords,” and Eorlingas mean the people of Eorl the Young?
[Demosthenes] Eorlingas is something like sons of Eorl.
[esther] good question Elemmire, I’ve been wondering what each one meant
[Puma] yes.
[Erestel] Rohirrim is the general term for a man of Rohan. Eorlingas is a term used for men descended from Eorl the Young. There are also Helmlingas, men descended from Helm Hammerhand.
[Puma] but eo means horse
[Darkover] I think Rohan was the name of their kingdom that was given them by the people of Gondor–the name, that is
[Eruanna] I think they have different linguistic origins, but i may be wrong
[Darkover] and I think their name for themselves was Eorlingas
[Puma] in rohan their country was called the riddermark
[Stozzi] arent the people of rohan known as the horse people ? (cant think of correct name for this XD)
[esther] all I know is that Rohan is the realm of the horse-lords
[Stozzi] THERE we go thanks esther :’D
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, sorry I’m late. I was on an archaeological dig at a Late Woodland Indian village with the Fell Beasts
[Demosthenes] Helmlingas would probably be specifically used FOR and ABOUT the men of Westfold.
[esther] you’re welcome Stozzi
[Puma] roch is horse in sindarin
[Demosthenes] That’s my guess anyhow.
[Darkover] Hello, jennie! Hope you and the fell beasts had a good dig
[Elemmire] There’s so many different terms, thank you
[Puma] eo is horse in rohirric
[Elemmire] hey jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks!
[Elemmire] I’m less confused now
[Puma] gday jennie
[Jenniearcheo] gday
[Xanaseb] Jennie hey
[Jenniearcheo] Seb
[Xanaseb] Lasak hey
[Lasak] hello
[esther] I’m not confused anymore either about the different names of the horse-lords
[Jenniearcheo] I missed it. But I’ll live
[Demosthenes] Perhaps at this point it might be good to return to the chapter, and the intelligence that draws Gandalf away.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] And leads him to tell Theoden to head for Helm’s Deep
[Elemmire] hmm
[Lasak]
[Puma] Leolas saw the shadow decending towards isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] first this: ‘Many miles lie between,’ said Legolas, gazing thither and shading his eyes with his long hand. ‘I can see a darkness. There are shapes moving in it, great shapes far away upon the bank of the river; but what they are I cannot tell. It is not mist or cloud that defeats my eyes:
[Darkover] One of the men of the guard made a crack about Gandalf’s abrupt departure
[Demosthenes] there is a veiling shadow that some power lays upon the land, and it marches slowly down stream. It is as if the twilight under endless trees were flowing downwards from the hills.’
[Elemmire] How does he know?
[Darkover] elf-eyes
[Elemmire] I love the description in that part of the chapter btw. And of the sunset as well
[Puma] legolas could not see the ents.just the shadow they caused
[Elemmire] Sorry, how does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] That is a good question. How does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew merry and pippin were with the ents
[esther] I thought Elves could see anything
[Demosthenes] And for what degree of know?
[Lasak] So he kinda used the people of Rohan as a bait?
[Puma] and had also seen treebeard
[Puma] so knew that the ents would have to react
[Darkover] no, Lasak, he just got the Rohirrim–and Theoden–moving, which had to be done
[Elemmire] ah
[Demosthenes] Well, that’s not /know/, that’s an educated guess surely?
[Puma] and gandalf also knew that ents move in “shadows”
[jamie] just a question does anyone know if the nre Desolation of smaug trailers arriving soon? as it must be
[Elemmire] ok puma
[Elemmire] thanks
[Demosthenes] jamie: dunno.
[esther] I heard its arriving on June 14th Jamie
[Stozzi] ok one battle i really like was battle of pelenor (off topic but just saying :3)
[Puma] i dont think it was an educated guess…..gandalf knew
[Xanaseb] Greeny
[jamie] its arriving with the man of steel film I heard the same
[Demosthenes] Then how did he know?
[esther] I agree Stozzi, I loved that one too
[esther] right Jamie
[Darkover] Whether he knew for a fact or not, Gandalf realized this was something that needed his attention
[jamie] right anywaqy thanks bfn
[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the arrival of Ceorl seems to have tipped the balance
[Puma] gandalf knew what a bunch of ents and huorns looked like when on the move
[Darkover] Much of this book involves Gandalf encouraging people at one front, only to set off for another and do the same
[esther] who is Ceorl?
[Demosthenes] Things have gone evilly since Théodred fell. We were driven back yesterday over the Isen with great loss; many perished at the crossing. Then at night fresh forces came over the river against our camp. All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us.
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, LL
[Xanaseb] LL!
[Elemmire] Gandalf gets people to do stuff, they do it, he gets other people to do other stuff.Basically
[Demosthenes] then gandalf says:
[lorienslady] Hiya Jennie and Xana
[Demosthenes] ‘Ride, Théoden!’ he said. ‘Ride to Helm’s Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.’ Turning to Aragorn and Éomer and the men of the king’s household, he cried: ‘Keep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helm’s Gate! Farewell!’
[Elemmire] hey lady
[Darkover] Right, Elemmire
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[Puma] it was gandalfs job to unite all the parties
[Demosthenes] It’s more Ceorl’s new that prompts Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] *news
[Xanaseb]
[Stozzi] hmm most of the things gandalf has done has influenced a lot through out of the books if you thing about it
[Darkover] And it was also his job, had been from the beginning, to encourage people to resist Sauron–and in this context, Saruman, too
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[esther] I really need to get to reading the books lol
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[Puma] well.no….when ceorl arrived with the news.gandalf knew not to bother with the fords anymore
[Demosthenes] esther: one of Erkenbrand’s soldiers. A survivor of the battle of the fords of the isen.
[Darkover] You won’t regret it, Esther
[esther] oh thanks Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Yeah, I agree with puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Me, too
[Jenniearcheo] fwiw
[Puma] and then gandalf also knew..that he needed the ents help…….as b4 he had no idea of the numbers saruman was sending
[esther] Darkover, I’ve been trying to get through the first one
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[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Could the Rohirrim have defeated the orcs in a field battle?
[esther] I’ve watched the movies over 100 times just haven’t gotten through the books yet
[Darkover] The first starts out slow, Esther, give it time
[Puma] to few for a field battle
[Darkover] I doubt it, Demosthenes
[esther] what do u mean by that question Demosthenes
[Stozzi] yet the ents decided to sit and debate on it for ages , until merry and pippen convinced treebeard to pass isengard ?
[Elemmire] I think it depends how many
[Elemmire] Not the whole host
[Elemmire] there were waaaaaay to many
[esther] you are right Darkover, I need to be motivated to read it lol
[Demosthenes] esther: well, Helm’s Deep is essentially a seige battle.
[Puma] merry and pippin did no such thing
[Puma] that is just movie Stozzi
[Puma] which is wrong
[Lasak] helms deep is a strong castle
[Jenniearcheo] which is different
[Puma] the hornburg is the fortress
[Stozzi] Ah but they did have a meeting at the entmoot though right? (need to read book again)
[esther] ok well I think the rohirrim could defeat the orcs no matter where they are
[Puma] the entmoot itself decided to atack
[Darkover] They did. And Merry and Pippin did serve a purpose
[Elemmire] Yeah, but pip and merry werent there
[Eruanna] I don’t think they would have won, the uruk hai managed to break the deeping wall which had stood strong over many seiges
[Elemmire] they were off with the ;hasty’ ent
[Puma] actually after the entmoot began merry and pippin went off with brealad
[Darkover] Maybe, Esther, but I think that if the Rohirrim had fought the Orcs in the field, even if the Rohirrim won, I fear it would have been a Pyrric victory
[Puma] bregalad
[Jenniearcheo] Well, . . . at this point, it’s moot
[Jenniearcheo] ar ar
[Elemmire] him
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] lol, jennie
[esther] Darkover, Pyrrick?
[Puma] theoden only had 1000 men.not enough for an open field battle
[Puma] gamling had another 1000 at hornburg
[Darkover] Esther, that means that the price the Rohirrim would have had to pay in lives, in order to “win,” would have been so high that it wouldn’t have been worth it
[Demosthenes] Alexander the great often fought outnumbered
[Demosthenes] and won.
[Puma] so enough to defend.not to attack
[Eruanna] Pyrric is a victory when the cost of the victory makes it worthless ie the death of eveyone
[esther] oh ok yeah that is true I guess
[Demosthenes] Eruanna: “another such victory shall be the end of us”
[Darkover] Lots of leaders have fought outnumbered and won, Demosthenes, Just as lots have fought outnumbered and lost
[Lasak] well i think they could have met them in open fields
[Darkover] or had a Pyrrhic victory–thank you, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: true enough!
[Lasak] with archers on horses
[Xanaseb] hehe
[Lasak] running close and away again
[Puma] Theoden went to helms deep.cause he knew he had no chance in the open
[esther] I agree Darkover, there have been many victories no matter the count of men in the victor’s camp
[Elemmire] probab;y killled the horses with exhaustion though lasak…
[Demosthenes] Well, he went there cuz Gandalf told him to.
[Elemmire] yeah darkover
[Puma] and knew it was correct
[Lasak] damn.. i forgot about the horses couldn’t run forever
[Puma] gandalf is an advisor.not ruler
[Elemmire] and gandalf know everything…
[Demosthenes] Would Theoden have rejected bad advice?
[Lasak] even if it is the horses of the people of rohan
[Demosthenes] Interesting thought.
[Darkover] I think Theoden had learned by this time that Gandalf did not give bad advice.
[Elemmire] Uh…Theoden listened to Wormtongue for however long it was…not so good with distinguishing bad advice
[esther] well he didn’t reject Wormtongues advice, although yes he was under Saruman’s spell
[Lasak] and would have followed that advice no matter what it was
[Puma] yes true.they had ridden all day.it was nearing dusk….hardly good conditions for horses to fight
[esther] I agree Lasak
[Demosthenes] puma: yes. they did ride hard. they feared to be too late to help Erkenbrand.
[Puma] yes
[Lasak] at the end of the chapter you see how they follow Gandalfs advice even if it seems like stupidity
[Lasak] when they ride to isengard
[Puma] also besides the ents….gandalf was gathering the men of rohan who had scattered at the fords
[Puma] all would be needed
[Jenniearcheo] Which apparently takes 10 hours
[Darkover] Although in this chapter, the Rohirrim didn’t have a tremendous number of options
[Demosthenes] puma: i thought mostly that he went to find Erkenbrand tbh. And that the visit to Isengard was a secondary affair.
[Puma] at the fords of isen.isengard was delayed…..which was of major import
[Lasak] i’m going to sleep now, must playing a chess tournament now so have to sleep
[Jenniearcheo] Night Lasak
[Demosthenes] night lasak!
[Xanaseb] ciao Lasak
[Darkover] Goodnight, Lasak, and good luck with your tournament!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, good luck!
[Stozzi] bye lasak
[Lasak] thanks
[Stozzi] i best be off to actually work tomorrow yay =-= Enjoy the discussion =D bye
[Darkover] bye, Stozzi
[Demosthenes] The good thing for Theoden was that Erkenbrand’s forces had mostly been routed and scattered, not killed.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Stozzi
[Puma] when gandalf was out and about……he met both elfhelm and grimbold
[Darkover] Right, so they lived to assemble and fight again
[esther] by Lasak and Stozzi
[Puma] gandalf sent elfhelm back to edoras
[esther] I know Grimbold but not Elfhelm
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] many characters were left out of movies esther
[esther] which means I REALLY need to read the books lol
[Darkover] Or the movies would have been three times as long
[Puma] yes
[esther] I wouldn’t have minded if they were longer lol
[Demosthenes] The orcs are actually not terribly strategic if you think about it. although they do flank at the Isen in order to make Erekenbrand’s defence untenable.
[Puma] the actual lotr is too complex to be made a movie
[person] true story
[Demosthenes] But at Helm’s Deep they use only overwhelming numbers.
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yeah
[Darkover] well, the orcs seem to be vicious, but not stupid
[esther] I don’t know if i can agree with you on that Puma
[Darkover] Hi, person
[Demosthenes] Darkover: they are very … fierce … in their parley with Aragorn.
[person] Hi
[Demosthenes] what can we conclude from their words if anything?
[Elemmire] thats one way of putting it demos
[Demosthenes] The Orcs yelled and jeered. ‘Come down! Come down!’ they cried. ‘If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!’
[Darkover] Indeed, Demosthenes. And the Uruk-hai even have a sort of martial pride and courage, which would be admirable among other circumstances
[Demosthenes] ‘What of the dawn?’ they jeered. ‘We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?’
[Darkover] That is just what I mean. Unlike most Orcs, they don’t fear the sun. It is as if they are the orcs with true martial ardor.
[Darkover] I mean, they seem to take a sort of pride in themselves, like combat soldiers who take pride in their Company or Division
[Demosthenes] Yes, I’d agree with that.
[esther] yeah its interesting that there are different versions of the orcs, ones who don’t like the light and ones who don’t give a damn lol
[Demosthenes] They have a togetherness and a sense of … loyalty? … that is absent from other orcs we meet, both earlier and later.
[Darkover] Exactly!
[Puma] i think we see later that the orcs of minas morgul and cirith ungol have martial ardor
[Demosthenes] puma: but seem more likely to fall out with each other. they have less discipline i guess.
[Darkover] Maybe, Puma, but it seems to me there is a difference between bragging, “We are the fighting Uruk-hai!” and fighting because you will be whipped or otherwise punished if you don’t.
[Puma] i am not sure
[Jenniearcheo] And as you can see, it’s a pretty low threshhold
[Puma] but good point to ponder
[Jenniearcheo] Where there’s a whip, there’s a way? lol
[Darkover] Sick but funny, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it’s from Rankin/Bass. That’s the classic Mordor orc perspective
[Demosthenes] Orcs are not as cookie cutter as they appear. Is that because of Saruman? Treebeard described him as having a mind of metal and machines and wheels. And that goes very well with rigid order.
[Puma] rigid order is what sauron was all about Demz
[Elemmire] hi
[Demosthenes] Saruman seems more so.
[Elemmire] thats a goos point demos
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, it seems like Saruman would like them to be _more_ cookie cutter
[Demosthenes] I have a different question: what precisely is the devilry of saruman that allows the uruk-hai to destroy the wall?
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, if they had been more rigid and predictable, the fracas wouldn’t have happened when they were taking the hobbits to isengard
[esther] the bombs Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Good point jennie
[Jenniearcheo] It’s all about what’s on the list, esther. It’s just a program
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I always got the impression that the movie got that detail right–that it was probably gunpowder in some form that Saruman used.
[Elemmire] its a bomb/mine in the film
[Eruanna] I think the devilry is explosives, perhaps something similar to gunpowder
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it was gunpwder
[Puma] saruman sauron and gandalf all had gunpowder
[esther] all I’m saying is its wrong to hold people back that’s all
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, radagastthebrown. Near Washington, D.C.
[Puma] DC.my old college town
[Elemmire] well, unless wizards have magic exploding spells…
[Jenniearcheo]
[Jenniearcheo] Surely Saruman would have had to be there in person for that . . .
[Darkover] And since gunpowder hadn’t been used before in M-E, it probably did seem like magic to the Rohirrim
[Elemmire] yeah…true darkover
[Puma] sauron used blasting fire.gunpwder..gandalf did fireworks.gunpowder
[Demosthenes] That’s very Arthur C Clarke.
[Darkover] Oh, yes, Puma, you’re right–I forgot Gandalf’s fireworks
[Darkover] Much more delightful than weapons
[Puma] now gandalf also had rocketry
[Jenniearcheo] Which is interesting
[Puma] but he did not use gunpwder for war
[Demosthenes] Did Gandalf get the fireworks from
[Demosthenes] The fireworks of Gandalf came from Dale/Erebor.
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . the rings, magic, whatever, is neither good nor evil, and neither is gunpowder
[Jenniearcheo] It’s just the wielder?
[Elemmire] 3Smaug makes fireworks!lol
[esther] really? the fireworks came frome Erebor/Dale
[Puma] its an interesting concept how the various maiar.had gunpwder….but gandalf did not use his for war.he surely knew it could be
[Jenniearcheo] With the exception of the One Ring
[esther] lol true Elemmire
[Demosthenes] jennie: there is that magic/art dichotomy though.
[Demosthenes] Does gunpowder count here as a “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] It counts as power
[Puma] not to us….but to people there it would seem magic
[Darkover] Well, you mentioned Arthur C. Clark, Demosthenes, I assume alluding to his comment that once you reach a certain point, science is virtually indistinguishable from magic.
[Elemmire] 3gandalf’s fireworks-werent they described as magical at one point…
[Demosthenes] I mean in its effect.
[Puma] and gandalf had it and used it not for power
[Elemmire] 3?
[Darkover] and since gunpowder had never before been used as a weapon in M-E, the rohirrim probably didn’t know what it was, and it seemed like dark magic to them.
* Puma nods
* Elemmire agrees
[Puma] same for when sauron used it to blast holes in the rammas
[Jenniearcheo] Was The Shire the only place Gandalf ever set off his fireworks?
[esther] rammas?
[Darkover] Even in the movie “300,” there is a mention of how when weapons failed, “they used their magic,” i.e., gunpowder-based grenades
[Elemmire] theyre never mentioned anywhere else
[Demosthenes] jennie: the only place we know of.
[Puma] the outer wall around the pelennor.not in the movies.though of great import esther
[esther] oh ok thanks Puma
[Jenniearcheo] To the lobbers of the grenades, it might still be magic. If you didn’t know how they were made, but were just lobbin’ ‘em.
[Demosthenes] It’s interesting that the dwarves of Erebor don’t think to take the technology any further.
[Elemmire] nice argument youre building here, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm
[Darkover] But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Aragorn pointed out to one of the hobbits that Gandalf spent a lot of time in a lot of places, that hobbits didn’t know about
[Darkover] Thank you, Elemmire
[Puma] true Darkover
[Darkover] But I imagine Gandalf saved the best for hobbit parties
[Jenniearcheo] But presumably if he’d gone to Rohan and set off a fireworks display . . .
[esther] I agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, then again, perhaps Tolkien is implying that good people wouldn’t think of such a use
[Puma] to the hobbits the fireworks were magic
* Elemmire agrees with jennie
[Demosthenes] magia in Tolkien can be used for both good and bad. it’s not good or bad in itself.
[Darkover] Maybe so, Jennie. Tolkien tended to frown on technology, anyway, as he seemed to think it was frequently put to bad uses
[Puma] and its the same with middle earth magic.intent has a big part in if it is “good or bad”
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] In The Hobbit, he goes out of his way to describe orcs, and how they may be behind our weapons of mass destruction.
[Darkover] I was recalling the same thing, Jennie
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking that this is essentially a kind of magia.
[Puma] jrr said goetic
[Puma] as opposed to magia
[Puma] but even jrr had a hard time distinguishing the 2
[esther] doesn’t everyone have a hard time distinguishing what magic really is
[Puma] jrr makes it complex
[Darkover] He makes it seem like a natural force
[Demosthenes] “the enemy’s operations are by no meas all goetic deceits, but magic that produces real effects in the physical world. but his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goetia to terrify and subjugate.
[esther] u know what I’m still confused about, it sort of has to do with my personal life as well as Tolkien
[Puma] yes Demz.from letters
[Puma] and what is that esther
[Demosthenes] I had to find the reference and type it out. but … Saruman’s and Sauron’s explosive devices that breach walls, and Gandalf’s fireworks all seem to fall inside this magia category.
[Demosthenes] It’s letter 155.
[Jenniearcheo] So with magia you blow up walls and lob rocks. With goetic power you scare people into submission
[Jenniearcheo] Like the black breath
[Demosthenes] I guess so!
[Jenniearcheo] And, presumably . . . the Ring
[Puma] it was a bit more complex than what Demz quoted
[Demosthenes] Or deceive them, like Sauron does with Barahir’s companion.
[esther] I know my mom has her tastes but I really thought she’d want to read the books after I told her that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and my mom is a devout Christian
[Demosthenes] By imitating the dead.
[Puma] but in the end.both good and bad people use both.intent is the key
[Darkover] true, Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Well, esther, it is a matter of taste. Some people are uncomfortable with questioning reality at all. Even in fun.
[Demosthenes] It’s pretty clear that Saruman is into bulldozing here.
[Darkover] does your mom like fantasy, Esther?
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[esther] I dunno Darkover she watched a movie once that had fairies in it and didn’t seem to mind
[Puma] i think we have covered this chapter well
[Demosthenes] Yeah, lastly I’d like to flip to the conclusion, and touch on the Huorns. This is the Macbeth rewrite?
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all points
[Darkover] yes, the moving forest!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as I understand it.
[Puma] many scholars think so Demz
[Darkover] A moving, *angry* forest
[Puma] nature rising to protect itself
[esther] ah yes the forest that attacked the fleeing Uruk Hai
[Demosthenes] I always figured this was the moving shadow that Legolas perceived at the beginning of the chapter.
[Puma] it was
[Jenniearcheo] sure
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] And later we find out that the Huorns follow the orcs of their own accord? Not by any instruction from Treebeard.
[Darkover] Certainly, those who passed under that shadow never came out again. That implies huorns, or at least *really* angry Ents
[Puma] the movie esther did not show the import of the ents and huorns
[Puma] without them.helms deep would ahve been lost for all the valor of the defense
[Darkover] Although there is a part in the movie where Eomer shouts, “Stay away from the trees!” I assume that is meant to be this moment, that we are discussing.
[Demosthenes] So we see Saruman’s “devilry” and the counterpoint … the revenge of nature that destroys that which would destroy/change it.
[Darkover] yes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] it was the huorns that killed most of the uruks
[Jenniearcheo] crunchings and munchings
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] One brings about the other.
[esther] um ok Puma you’ll have to explain how they didn’t
[Puma] the huorns were the deciding factor in the battle
[Puma] nature.
[Demosthenes] Forces that are outflanked or surrounded usually lose. Badly.
[Puma] without nature on your side.all the valor will still fail
[esther] the huorns?
[Darkover] Plus, evil trees would be sort of freaky, IMO
[Puma] so treat nature with respect
[esther] I agree Darkover lol
[Jenniearcheo] or else
[Puma] the huorns were the moving trees esther
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure the huorns even after this are particularly on anyone’s side other than their own.
[Puma] agreed Demz
[esther] well I only know one thing, until I’ve read the books, I love the movies more. and I thought the moving trees were called Ents
[Darkover] Well, I doubt if the huorns were drawing many distinctions at that point
[Puma] no.ents were treebeard and ilk
[esther] oh ok
[Demosthenes] Wonder if the Rohirrim had anything to fear.
[Puma] the books are way more complex than movies esther
[Darkover] Ents were the “shepherds of the forest,” esther. Huorns are trees that have gone bad, so to speak, presumably from being mistreated by humans for so long.
[Darkover] Huorns weren’t mentioned in the movies.
[Puma] or also ents that had grown treeish
[Jenniearcheo] Not by name
[Jenniearcheo] But the forest does appear and chew up the Uruk Hai in the EE
[Demosthenes] An odd in-between thing.
[esther] I guess I just like seeing them visually rather than having to picture it in my head Puma
[Darkover] I bet the Rohirrim would have had plenty to fear, Demosthenes, if they had gone too near that “shadow”
[Puma] old man willow was probaly a huron
[Darkover] True, Puma
[Demosthenes] They did take wood from the forest to burn the orcs.
[Puma] huorn
[Darkover] Well, I think they were allowed to do that, so long as it was not living wood
[Puma] ents understand the use of woood.not the useless destruction saruman was doing
[Elemmire] yeah, aragorn legolas and gimli take wood earlier
[esther] I agree Puma
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it is one of jrr’s green themes
[Demosthenes] Like the Dead (later on) they perform one act to assist the free people’s and then disappear.
[Puma] respect nature
[esther] agreed Puma
[Jenniearcheo] The Grateful Dead do one act? Oh, the armies . . . never mind
[Puma] lol
[Puma] although the ents did more than one act
[Puma] they defeated a horde of orcs in the wold….
[Darkover] So, have we covered all the aspects of this chapter?
[Puma] that had failed to get into lorien
[Puma] i think so darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so. I can’t think of anything else.
[esther] I can’t say so cuz I haven’t actually read the chapter yet
[Puma] good job people
[Darkover] We’ve had a good discussion, as usual
[Puma] i would encourage you to read lotr esther
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks,Dems
[Demosthenes] thanks everyone!
Session Close: Sun Jun 02 09:49:36 2013