Session Start: Sun May 12 07:15:09 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin anyhow?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read about 20 pages…how many appendixes ae in total..cause my book has 6
[Demosthenes] frosaki_the_ringbearer: I think the last is E. But today we’re talking about Appendirx A mostly.
[sunshower] hi Galaril
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i have all the lotr in one book…it’s true…1150 pages..ahhaha
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ok just asking
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Pete-Slagheaps] Appendix B has most of the good stuff, I think
[ChristineGolden] The Numenorean section always reminds me of the “begats” in the Bible.
[Alatariel] Have we started?
[Puma] read ut for numenor
[Demosthenes] Alatariel: kinda yes. We’re defintiely ready to go.
[Pete-Slagheaps] me too, Christine. I don’t think that I’ve read appemdix A moe than twic, sonve 1969
[Demosthenes] Let’s start at the beginning:
[Demosthenes] ‘Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of D?ael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage D?ael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the D?in were accustomed to marry.
[Demosthenes] 1) It’s a rough world for the Dunedain of Arnor obviously.
[Puma] one thing left out….that is in peoples….they lived in a hidden fastness
[Demosthenes] Oh?
[Puma] yes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] my HoF too…so be kind to me finally people to talk to..
[Puma] so they did have armed towns
[Jenniearcheo] Gilraen was such a Debbie Downer.
[Alatariel] Whose Aranarth?
[Puma] well…..then come an instance of ivorwens forsight
[Adann412] my first hof as well but I’ve been in barlimans chat before
[Puma] the 1st chieftain
[Puma] ivorwens forsight was of great import
[Eowyn] My first HoF too
[Nik_Z] same here
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien had a lot of ‘kissing cousins’ marry in both LotR and TS.
[Puma] remember both she and dirhael were of the lone of isildur…just not the senior branch
[Puma] line
[sunshower] wait—how old was Gilraen?
[Puma] 22
[Puma] young for a dunedain woman to marry
[sunshower] hmmm
[Jenniearcheo] Since they normally lived a while
[Demosthenes] I guess that would be young for Dunedain.
[Jenniearcheo] Kinda like the dwarves who didn’t seem to marry and have kids (per family trees) until about 100
[Demosthenes] yeah jennie. like that.
[Puma] dunedain were a bit soooner than dwarves
[ChristineGolden] And Arathorn was a man, full-grown, so probably what we’d call middle-aged.
[Puma] not middle age
[Puma] he was in mid 50′s
[Evenstar25] how long was the average lifespan of the dunedan?
[Demosthenes] 40s or 50s?
[Jenniearcheo] and he was only 60 when he (Arathorn) died
[sunshower] oh, that’s a bit of an age difference then
[Puma] and at that time normal lifespan for chieftains was a bout 160
[Jenniearcheo] When Aragorn was 2
[Evenstar25] okay
[Jenniearcheo] hello
[Pete-Slagheaps] Hi, wanderer
[Demosthenes] Evenstar25: Aragorn lived to 215. That seems to be about the limit of Dunedain life *in Middle-earth*.
[Evenstar25] Okay, I knew he lived a long time I just couldn’t remember
[Demosthenes] So Aragorn was /really/ young when he met Arwen.
[Nik_Z] and also, Aragorn was said to be particularly long-lived for Dunedain at that time
[Demosthenes] still in the short shorts.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] All the Americans are now picturing Daisy Duke
[Pete-Slagheaps] haha, Jennie
[Adann412] wish I could stay but moms makin me stuff envelopes for my sisters wedding, bye everyone
[Demosthenes] Does that explain his … forwardness perhaps?
[Demosthenes] Though, Elrond had just given him a heap of stuff. Ring of Barahir and all that.
[sunshower] young and dumb?
[Phil] evening everyone
[Demosthenes] young and restless?
[Nik_Z] but at the same time, when he told her his lineage he became instantly aware that she was “better” than him
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it was more destiny, like lightning striking.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all excited about the future when he went for his stroll
[Nik_Z] so his pursuit of her was still more fate-driven
[Puma] and his father gave him the name Aragorn, a name used in in the house of the chieftains. But Ivorwen at his naming stood by and said.”Kingly Valor”that he shall have but i see on his breast a green stone and from that his true name shall come and his chief renown: for he shall be a healer and a renewer….and they did not know what she meant, for there was no green stone to be seen by other eyes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: To some extent I certainly see Tolkien replaying the Beren and Luthien story. But deliberately. There is an element of “this is not chance”.
[Puma] that passage is in peoples….but it is in fact true
[Jenniearcheo] and it’s directly referred to
[Jenniearcheo] She’s even wearing the same (or a very similar) dress
[ChristineGolden] Fate plays a big role in Tolkien, and I think the Arwen/Aragorn romance was ‘destiny.’
[Nik_Z] I’d agree
[Puma] when galadriel said to him take now the name forseen at your birth
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i agree
[Demosthenes] ?For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of L?n which tells of the meeting of L?n and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there L?n walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
[ChristineGolden] Especially since Galadriel who had foresight, cleaned him up before he met Arwen in the woods.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, in Lorien
[sunshower] aye, there’s that bound brow concept
[Jenniearcheo] yep
[Demosthenes] Oh you think that was Galadriel spinning webs? I had not thought of that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, anyone could see he was scruffy and travel worn
[Nik_Z] she probably foresaw their destiny
[Evenstar25] well, this has been fun guys, but I must go now, until another time!
[Puma] galadriel knew
[Nik_Z] and perhaps wanted to help a bit, as it were
[Jenniearcheo] And Tolkien specifies that it’s Galadriel who cleaned him up
[Phil] later Evenstar25
[Jenniearcheo] bye Evenstar25
[Demosthenes] After 30 years in the wilderness he probably looked a bit weatherbeaten.
[bld_th] When Arwen introduces to Aragorn she tells “Yet her name -Luthine- is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers” so what did she know about her destiny?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I definitely believe Galadriel encouraged the romance, and not because of personal reasons.
[Puma] well……he had just returned from confines of mordor
[Phil] a bit weatherbeaten i guess that is an understatement Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Strider does mention to Boromir something about “little do i resemble isildur and anarion etc etc”
[Jenniearcheo] good question, bld_th
[Demosthenes] I think he was being sarcastic.
[Demosthenes] bld_th: that is a good question.
[Puma] but aragorn did resemble elendil and elendur
[Nik_Z] yes
[Demosthenes] Or is she just referring to her Peredhil nature?
[Nik_Z] Aragorn is said to gretly resemble Elendil
[Demosthenes] I can see both possibilities.
[Nik_Z] I think she foresaw her foture
[ChristineGolden] But when he appears in his “raiment” before Arwen, he does appear kingly.
[Nik_Z] partially, anyway
[Eowyn] what motivation do you think galadriel had in “match making” then?
[Demosthenes] Does Arwen have foresight?
[Puma] aragorn appears as an elf would
[Phil] i think she does Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel had foresight and was always weaving schemes. She undoubtedly knew the prophecies, too.
[Puma] arwen does have forsight….its demonstrated
[Phil] i think most elves have foresight
[Nik_Z] and some men
[ChristineGolden] Yes, it’s mentioned in the appendix, I believe, Demosthenes.
[Puma] galadriel knew of ivorwens prophesy
[Puma] and galadriel had the mirror
[Demosthenes] I think the great standard she creates for Aragorn is driven by some sort of foresight.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] galadriel pretty much knew everything i think
[Puma] yes
[Puma] and also arwen had forsight as to what frodos fate would be
[Jenniearcheo] that he’d need it?
[bld_th] interesting
[Demosthenes] Yes jennie. It seems to be very imnportant in winning over the Dead.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think any of the elves clearly saw Frodo’s fate, Puma.
[Demosthenes] I don’t think it’s just adornment.
[Jenniearcheo] And announcing the Return . . .
[Puma] arwen did after the war
[ChristineGolden] Glimpses, perhaps, and premonitions, but not like watching a video play out.
[Darkover] Greetings, all, so sorry I’m late!
[Nik_Z] has anyone else ever been a bit puzzled by what Aragorn says before his death (I am the last of the Numenoreans)? personally, I think he says this to emphasise the beginning of a new era
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did have a son. And apparently some daughters
[Puma] Aragorn was the last numenorean.a new line had begun
[Darkover] Nik_Z, I think Aragorn also meant he was the last who could choose his own time of death, too
[Jenniearcheo] But they . . . aren’t the same?
[Nik_Z] aye
[ChristineGolden] The great standard was a major thing in the middle ages and in english mythology.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, I wondered where you were.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or like the Eagle aquila of the Roman legions. It signified their honour. and their lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, got here ASAP
[Jenniearcheo] The Eagle.
[ChristineGolden] No, Aragorn was the last of the Numenoreans because his son was part-elven like his mother.
[Puma] Aragorn had more names than any1 else in lotr
[Nik_Z] the Eagles, and their counterparts in the Napoleonic wars
[Puma] no.eldarion was not part elven
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did seem to have a number of them.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gandalf had quite a few names, as well
[Darkover] Well, technically, Chris, Aragorn was part-Elf too. And part Maia, through Luthien
[ChristineGolden] I’m not so sure about that, Demosthenes, Tolkien never alluded much to the Greeks or Romans.
[Puma] yes he did christine
[Darkover] Elvish blood, Eldarion had, Puma, not that he was of Elvish race
[Nik_Z] but banners do play their but in LotR
[Nik_Z] bit*
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ellhnas?uparxei k allos ellhnas edw?
[Jenniearcheo] The idea of a Standard is an old one, whatever the source.
[ChristineGolden] Not very often, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Ironically, the orcs make as much use of heraldry as men
[Puma] the entrance of the people into minas tirith.was always referred to by him as homeric
[Demosthenes] Sign and signifiers.
[Darkover] Well, standards had their purpose in battle, Jennie, regardless of what side or species an army was
[Puma] well….there are many many banners in jrr
[Jenniearcheo] Even Martin’s use of “bannermen” is a reflection of the idea.
[ChristineGolden] The standard was the sign of the king and his authority. When Aragorn unfurled it, he was claiming his crown.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Darkover] Right, Chris. More like “The King has returned” than “Lord Aragorn”
[Demosthenes] And that plays into his rodering the banner furled at Minas Tirith after the pelennor.
[ChristineGolden] When he rode with it to the gates of Mordor, he was announcing, “The King has returned.”
[Demosthenes] ordering*
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] tolkien had takenpart of greek and romian myhology ..moria for exaple is a village in island of lesvos…the collums of kazard dum are takem by dsign form there
[Puma] the columns were shaped as trees
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] no kazard dm sorry the great hall we see in the movie
[Jenniearcheo] I can see a parallel between the dwarves and classical architecture.
[Nik_Z] I always felt that the Silmarillion was a quite roman/greek feeling to it
[Puma] movie counts not
[Nik_Z] the great clashes of gods and men
[Demosthenes] So, to what extent does Aragorn’s …. drive … derive from all the things he’s forced to do in order “win” Arwen (or win over Elrond)?
[Puma] Elrond was on aragorns side
[Darkover] most of it, always seemed ot me, Demosthenes
[Puma] elrond was no thingol
[ChristineGolden] Well, according to Tolkien, most of his inspiration came from the middle ages and nordic myth.
[sunshower] I say less than most
[bld_th] the movie has a lot of infuence from Rome, specially Gondorian design
[Darkover] He wasn’t marrying the woman of his dreams unless he became king–and of the reunited Kingdom, no less
[Demosthenes] Was he? He seems a bit conflicted … though way less of an idiot than thingol.
[Puma] Arwen was above aragorn
[Nik_Z] Christine – true, but the great armies are more of a antiquity thing
[Darkover] Well, if we’re making Greek allusions, Thingol had hubris
[Nik_Z] since the middle ages saw a decline
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Aragorn had a destiny to fulfill and that his love of Arwen “was his light when all other lights had failed.”
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and in a way that “saves” the quest of the Ring too.
[Puma] little in middle earth resembles the middle ages
[Darkover] in terms of lineage, maybe, Puma, but it seems to me that Aragorn earned his position–eventually–whereas everything Arwen had was an accident of birth
[Demosthenes] Would Aragorn have been in Bree otherwise?
[Pete-Slagheaps] and Melian was above Thingol–higher than Arwen was above Aragorn
[Puma] there was no feudalism
[Demosthenes] It’s a weird thought.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Nik. You forget the War of the Roses, for example.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, Turgon was like, “My daughter? Suuure!”
[Demosthenes] turgon is an odd exception
[Puma] no quite jennie.turon knew of ulmos prophesy
[Jenniearcheo] But blew it off
[Demosthenes] And still ignored it. well done turgon.
[Puma] not completely
[ChristineGolden] There are many symbols, etc., to the Middle Ages, Puma.
[Darkover] Maybe Aragorn wouldn’t otherwise have been in Bree, Demosthenes, but one of the things I love about LotR is Tolkien’s insistence that everything happens for a purpose.
[Darkover] It is how he explained coincidence.
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris
[Puma] for aragorn to expect people to be rules by him….did he not have 1st to learn to be ruled
[Puma] Elrond was a father to aragorn
[Puma] elladan and elrohir bothers
[Nik_Z] Christine – the War of the Roses was more of an exception, the middle ages mostly saw small-scale warfare
[Demosthenes] Darkover: There’s all these odd little threads. Though … you can find signs of stuff everywhere when you start applying hindsight.
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes
[Nik_Z] armies of several thousand men, 10k at the most
[ChristineGolden] I’d think he would have learned that lesson quite well from Elrond, Puma. I don’t see Elrond taking much sass from a young boy.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] Or indeed anyone else, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sass
[bld_th] Yes, there´s a nice quote about destiny, can{t remember if it is told by gandalf or Tom bombadil
[Puma] but that is why aragorn honored elronds wish
[Darkover] Well, let’s face it, Puma, Aragorn didn’t have much choice in honoring Elrond’s wishes when it came to marrying Arwen. It was more like, this is the deal, take it or leave it.
[ChristineGolden] Those were large armies for the time, Nik. After all, Europe was still recovering from the Black Death.
[Goldberry] If Arwen had chosen to leave ME would Frodo have had to stay?
[bld_th] Oh yes: “Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine” its Tom Bombadil
[Puma] no.both arwen and aragorn did have a choice
[ChristineGolden] Do you think Arwen would have married Aragorn if Elrond had forbidden it?
[bld_th] I think yes Goldberry
[Puma] no.arwen did not give frodo her seat
[Darkover] No, I doubt that very much, Goldberry. Arwen offered Frodo her seat on the ships, so to speak, because she *knew* there would be at least one vacancy, but I don’t think one thing had anything to do with the other.
[Jenniearcheo] Would the war have been won if she’d refused him and gone West?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] she gave her place didn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a hobson’s choice?
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes.
[Nik_Z] my point exactly, antiquity saw warfare at a grander scale (take the Roman empire for example, or perhaps the battle of Platea), whereas the middle ages saw warfare as a smaller occurence, composed more of raids than battles
[Puma] no she did not give her place
[Demosthenes] You may take any horse in the barn, as long as it’s the one in the first stall.
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would still have had the West win the war, but then Gondor wouldn’t have risen to its full glory afterwards without Arwen.
[Darkover] Jennie, I think it would have depended on how early Arwen refused him, if indeed she had. Certainly it would have altered circumstances, but not if she changed her mind at the time of the war
[Darkover] If she’d done the latter, Gondor would have had a different Queen, I suspect, but that is all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Again this is somewhat reflective of Tolkien’s own courtship of Edith Bratt.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] Something we observed with Beren and Luthien.
[Nik_Z] Demosthenes: yes, quite so
[Darkover] Whereas if Arwen had refused early on to ever be engaged to Aragorn, things would have changed dramatically, and Aragorn and his circumstances would have been very different
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes, although the father-figure in Tolkien’s case who put forth the restrictions was his own, the priest who raised him.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s worth pondering … to what extent is this a “re-run” of Beren and Luthien?
[Puma] in a large part it is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t about the rest of you, but I didn’t really know about Arwen when I first read LotR. So, yes, I think events would have played out the same.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly there are parallels. But it’s referred to quite directly
[Demosthenes] And how that figues with Arwen being the “Evenstar”
[sunshower] a “reboot” with a better outcome?
[Jenniearcheo] In simile rather than just metaphor
[Puma] even reflected by araogrn singing some of beren and luthien to the hobbits
[Darkover] There are some similarities–Arwen’s choice is similar to Luthien’s–but Arwen had a much more understanding father
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was an internal motivation for Aragorn, not a driver of events.
[Darkover] who also raised Aragorn, unlike Thingol and Beren’s relationship
[Demosthenes] sunshower: oooh, do they get a happy ending?
[sunshower] I say they did
[Nik_Z] and Elrond was less haughty than Thingol
[ChristineGolden] Very little to me, Demosthenes. Arwen really plays a very small role in the war.
[Darkover] Oooh, very well put, Chris!
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read somewhere that at first tolkien thought aragorn marring ewoyn but he changed it later..why u thing?
[Puma] the evenstar refers to arwen being the last of the houses of finwe and elwe born in middle earth
[Darkover] And of course, there was the precedent of Luthien and Beren, by the time Arwen and Aragorn came along.
[ChristineGolden] Whereas Luthien was totally involved and committed to helping Beren achieve his quest.
[sunshower] isn’t there something in the Tale about A&A meeting again?
[sunshower] after they pass from M-e?
[Jenniearcheo] Which actually makes it even more dramatic. Elrond knew what would happen to Arwen because of Luthien
[Nik_Z] Tolkien married Aragorn to Arwen to signal the renewal of Gondor and Arnor
[Puma] only in 1 slight way
[Darkover] Frosaki, I heard the same, but from what I heard, when Tolkien created the character of Eowyn, he hadn’t yet created the character of Faramir, and for several different reasons, he changed things.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, they were both beautiful elven maids who looked very much alike. One was the morning star; the other, its evenstar. But as to their actual roles in the fight against evil, there is no comparison.
[Darkover] Right, Sunshower, Aragorn promises that he will see Arwen in the next world, because Arwen has chosen the “gift of Men,” which means she will be with Aragorn and his people, not with the Elves.
[Puma] arwen was aragorns inspiration.also she watched over him in thought
[Darkover] Right again, Chris. Luthien was much more proactive in fighting evil.
[ChristineGolden] Watching is a lot different than defying the gates of Angband, Puma.
[Puma] Aragorn used the word “behold!” which in jrr something that is true
[Nik_Z] Arwen was more to Aragorn what Edith was to JRR
[sunshower] pretty long life, raised the kids….see you on the other side! not a bad outcome, imo
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t Elwing have that same choice? And the same wistfulness?
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was a crucial part of that tale; Arwen was a note in the appendices.
[Demosthenes] Is Arwen a psychological bolster for Aragorn? I’m thinking of her “hope comes or hope fades…” line particularly.
[Darkover] Puma, what you say is true, but being “inspiration” is hardly the same as completing a quest against the dark lord
[Nik_Z] something to come home to, something worth fighting for
[Puma] i was not comparing arwen to luthien
[ChristineGolden] the little woman sitting home doing embroidery by the fire, Nik?
[Darkover] I’d say definitely, Demosthenes. I’m sure it was the thought of earning Arwen at first, and then the thought of her waiting for him, that helped Aragorn go on at times.
[Demosthenes] this too:
[Demosthenes] ‘And Arwen said: “Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it.”
[Nik_Z] in a sense, yes
[Nik_Z] but mostly a beacon of hope in dark times
[Darkover] Maybe that was an example of the foresight of her family line, Demosthenes
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[ChristineGolden] Yeah, that’s how she always struck me, too. Arwen is really the least heroic of the elven maids we’ve discussed.
[Nik_Z] definitely
[Puma] we know little of arwens story
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps because she was a bit of an afterthought?
[Puma] though you are correct
[Nik_Z] she watches things happen for her, but she herself does not make them happen
[ChristineGolden] While Middle Earth is on the edge of doom, she is safely in Rivendell, embroidering a banner for Aragorn.
[Darkover] Sunshower, Arwen’s deal seems pretty good to me, too, but that is because you and I are going to get old–if we live long enough–and die anyway. Arwen had to *choose* to give up youth, eternal beauty, and immortality for death and an uncertain future.
[Goldberry] Elrond probably didn’t let her do anything dangerous
[Darkover] Thingol didn’t want to “let” Luthien do things, either, Goldberry, but she did
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: Dunno about that. We see that travelling to and from Lorien is in itself dangerous.
[Goldberry] true
[ChristineGolden] But she never had to ACT, Darkover, against evil – be it Morgoth or Sauron – whereas Luthien, Idril, and Elwing put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] Not that I am critical of Arwen. She wasn’t a warrior, not practical to expect her to be.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh yeah. Poor Mrs. Elrond
[ChristineGolden] I’m sure she was heavily guarded, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there are some similarities to Melian, i think.
[bld_th] But Arwen exeplify the difficult of the choice between mortality and unmortality, may be the others had the same difficult, buy their stories are told from a more epic way
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I would agree with that, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I agree, Chris. She was much more passive than earlier elf-women. But my point to Sunshower was that, when examined in context, Arwen’s choice becomes more difficult.
[ChristineGolden] All of the characters faced difficult choices, though, Darkover; Frodo, the most difficult of all. I don’t see what makes hers so special, at least more so than Luthien’s.
[bld_th] Im agree Draover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that Arwen makes the greater sacrifice? while Aragorn gains a world?
[Darkover] And of course, Arwen gave up her Elvish family, too
[Nik_Z] exactly, Darkover: when Luthien makes her choice, it is in a time of war and dwindling hope, so she wants to enjoy, whereas Arwen finally chooses after the victory, therefore putting more on the line
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[sunshower] the bitter parting of Arwen and Elrond
[Jenniearcheo] Arwen has the loss of Luthien to consider. the effect it had on everyone.
[Darkover] That is a valid argument, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] The easier choice for Luthien would have been to sail off for Valinor, not storm the gates of Angband.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: maybe that is her battle? the one with self.
[Nik_Z] but then again, it was a ray of hope
[sunshower] mortal love–relatively short-term OR immortalilty?
[Jenniearcheo] An immortality filled with regret?
[Darkover] Chris, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Arwen. She was like Luthien only when it came to beauty and the choice she had to make, yes. And as you correctly observe, lots of people had to make potentially-lousy choices. But suffering isn’t a contest, and Arwen’s choice was nevertheless a difficult one. That is all I mean.
[Demosthenes] Would Valinor not … temper/heal … any regret?
[sunshower] I think I am more OK with the whole thing mostly because of the promise of their meeting again in the “afterlife”
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[sunshower] going along that line of thinking–their love is immortal
[sunshower] ymmv
[Darkover] Hmm, I hadn’t considered that, Demosthenes. Maybe, as Elrond suggested in the PJ movies, Arwen would have been happy with just a memory of her love, had she gone to Valinor. Maybe not, too.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] wel all i can say is things are more complicated once u read the books…so much to thig
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] +think
[Darkover] Maybe it is one of those things a person wouldnt’ know until after they made the choice.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that is why Frodo goes to Tol Eressea.
[Demosthenes] On the other hand, Valinor doesn’t help Miriel much.
[Demosthenes] she has to go to Mandos.
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[Darkover] True. The broad implication was that it would help heal, or at least soothe, his body and spirit.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] whatever choice u made u can always have second thoughts
[Darkover] lol, Chris. But to be fair, Arwen didn’t do that, at least.
[Demosthenes] Do you think that after Aragorn dies that Arwen suddenly … i guess … fades?
[Jenniearcheo] She seems to.
[Darkover] frosaki, that’s one reason why Tolkien fans usually read LotR more than once. There is indeed a lot to be gleaned.
[Demosthenes] ‘But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
[Jenniearcheo] Goes a little Gilraen-y
[ChristineGolden] I know, I was just trying to come up with an example, Darkover, and that one popped into my head. Not quite what I meant, but you get the idea.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the son and daughters aren’t enough to bring her joy
[bld_th] i think she dies too, thats the menaning for me of being forgotten
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Arwen might have faded Elf-fashion, and then died, but I got the impression she was doing the Elf equivalent of what Aragorn did
[ChristineGolden] Yes, like that quote about “I have hope to the Dunedain. I kept none for myself,” Jen.
[Puma] arwen died
[Darkover] said goodbye to all the people and things she’d known and loved, and then lay down to die.
[Puma] she chose to die
[Jenniearcheo] And apparently a bare skeleton?
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe that’s the way it was ‘supposed to happen.’ Luthien didn’t live long after Beren, either.
[Jenniearcheo] Without even the little flowers
[Jenniearcheo] And the mallorn leaves actually falling
[Puma] and where arwen chose to die is symbolic
[Demosthenes] In a way Aragorn truly seems to have been Arwen’s hope.
[Darkover] Jennie, her no longer wishing to stay on after Aragorn died might in part have been because she’d been born an Elf, and lived as one for so long
[Jenniearcheo] As an archeologist, I know that an exposed corpse is not the best way to keep a skeleton articulated, is all.
[Puma] arwen could have chosen to die when aragorn did
[Lendaris] Hi there
[ChristineGolden] Maybe when the man died, his elven wife died soon after. Doom of Mandos, perhaps?
[Darkover] I mean, don’t Elves in Tolkien’s world become spiritually attached to their spouses? It isn’t like a mortal widow just living on, and maybe marrying someone else.
[Demosthenes] We don’t know in what order Luthien and Beren died. But they must have been spaced closely i think?
[Darkover] I think it was more an elvish characteristic, Chris, as I indicated in my recent remarks to Jennie
[Demosthenes] As the Nauglamir was brought pretty much directly to Dior with the news.
[Darkover] Very closely spaced, I suspect, Demosthenes
[Puma] when arwen and luthien married they were no longer eldar
[Darkover] I don’t think that was something that changed completely just overnight, Puma
[Puma] but it was
[Demosthenes] Aragron seems to think she could still take a boat
[Puma] in luthiens case by decree of mandos
[Darkover] Arwen and Aragorn, Lendaris
[Demosthenes] ‘ “I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
[Darkover] Right. But then, she would also never see him again.
[Demosthenes] or is he telling fibs?
[Puma] arwen no longer had a right to go
[Darkover] And doesn’t she tell him that choice was made long ago, there’s no going back now?
[Demosthenes] Yet Aragorn thinks she could?
[Demosthenes] He’s wrong then?
[sunshower] “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Besides, as I think Arwen mentions, aren’t the last of the ships gone?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always wondered about that passage since the last ship had already sailed.
[sunshower] that’s the line that does it for me, I think
[Demosthenes] Maybe she could build a raft out of mallorns
[Puma] no.the last ships are not gone
[Darkover] I think he might have been mistaken, Demosthenes. I can’t imagine him lying to Arwen about something like that.
[sunshower]
[Jenniearcheo] Or Entwives
[Demosthenes] or entwives
[Puma] cirdan would be on the very last ship
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Demosthenes] It’s an odd one.
[Darkover] Well, he might have been on the last one, Puma, and it might have already sailed. As I recall, Arwen tells a dying Aragorn that there no longer is any ship that would bear her hence.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Legolas go?
[Demetria] Isn’t the last ship the one with Legolas & Gimli?
[ChristineGolden] Weren’t the appendices an add-on? So, it’s possible Tolkien wasn’t his usual OCD self about details?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] yes i thnk
[FloraWright] no he built one
[Puma] yes Darkover.because she had no right to sail…..not because the last ship had sailed
[Darkover] Maybe Legolas, Gimli, and Cirdan were all on the same one. I really don’t think this is as complicated as some of you are trying to make out.
[Puma] no.cirdan was not on ship with legolas and gimli
[Demetria] Cirdan was on the one with Gandolf and the ring bearers
[Darkover] Maybe that is what she meant, Puma. And maybe she meant that as far as she knew, there were no more ships. It could be interpreted either way.
[Demosthenes] But I say to you, King of the N?reans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”
[Demosthenes] That seems a long time to learn the lesson of mortality.
[Puma] no it could not be interprested either way
[ChristineGolden] “There is now no ship that will bear me hence (to Valinor).
[FloraWright] you have a piont
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, rationally, all human beings know we’re going to die, but how many of us actually understand and accept it, until it happens?
[ChristineGolden] That’s pretty clear.
[Darkover] And Arwen had been an immortal Elf for much of her life.
[sunshower] Elfkind were removed from that thought
[Puma] Arwen had made the choice of the half elven….the same as elros did
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] how old was she??Arwen
[sunshower] old
[Puma] and neither could go west
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “i’m going to live forever. so far so good”?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] older than aragorn?
[Puma] arwen was born 241 3rd age
[FloraWright] but she die’s in the end and she was like 2050
[Demosthenes] I guess we all do that.
[Jenniearcheo] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien the year Elessar died, and he and Gimli went down Anduin and over the sea
[Darkover] Something like that, Demosthenes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ooh nice…so aragorn liked older women..
[FloraWright] haha yea
[FloraWright] he was 87
[bld_th] like Edith to Tolkien
[Puma] arwen was 2901 yrs old when aragorn died
[bld_th] Edith was older
[Puma] and she died 1 yr later
[FloraWright] yea he live 100 years then gimli and legolas left and arwen died
[Darkover] I wonder if Arwen was the last Elf in M-E when she died.
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] Well, what a cheery turn we’ve taken
[Demosthenes] I think there would have been some Silvan elves still
[Puma] and arwen had never been an elf.ever
[Demosthenes] Some of the Moriquendi
[Demosthenes] Thranduil’s folk?
[Darkover] LoL, Jennie, but let’s face it, death is a big part of the Arwen-Aragorn tale
[Jenniearcheo] Dunno. Tale of Years ends with that entry
[Demosthenes] They didn’t seem much interested in boats.
[sunshower] Thranduil himself?
[Jenniearcheo] True
[ChristineGolden] No, Tolkien said that elves still lived in Middle Earth, but diminished.
[Puma] death is a big part of all jrr’s writtings
[ChristineGolden] Death and redemption
[Darkover] Probably a few elves here and there, then, some who just didn’t want to leave M-E for any reason.
[Puma] but its important to know arwen,,,,was not an elf
[FloraWright] she was
[Demosthenes] They wanted to have their own small realms? Away from Valinor?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] too attached maybe to leave
[Puma] no she was not
[sunshower] I wonder if JRRT considered any of his contemporaries to be the faded elves?
[Elrenia] Arwen wasn’t an elf?!
[Darkover] Arwen wasn’t a full-blooded Elf, Puma, but I would have called her an Elf.
[Demosthenes] If they were Moriquendi they might not know the way.
[Elrenia] :s
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Puma] arwen was half elven
[Demetria] Arwen was 3/4 elf
[Darkover] If it walks like an Elf, has undying beauty and virtual immortality like an elf…
[Puma] she had a different destiny than elves
[Demosthenes] Also, you have weird exceptions like Maglor.
[Jenniearcheo] Plus, they would have been to drunk on Dorwinion wine to make the effort.
[Puma] peredhil have a choice
[Darkover] Fine, her destiny was different, but that wouldn’t make her less of an Elf
[Demosthenes] presumably still out there somewhere. Singing his little heart out.
[ChristineGolden] But her blood and heritage was elven, Puma. Just because I marry someone from China doesn’t make me Asian.
[Darkover] As far as I know, Demosthenes, Maglor is still out there.
[Puma] arwen was half elven with life of the eldar….which she chose to give up..
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Darkover] Which makes her an Elf, or close enough, Puma
[Puma] Christine.you are missing the point of what half elven means
[ChristineGolden] She chose to give up her immortality and right to go to Valinor, Puma. That did not change her “DNA.”
[Puma] elves had a destiny with death.as did humankind….the peredhil could choose to which kindred their fates would be
[Jenniearcheo] Hang on. If the valar could Ping make Earendil not mortal . . . that changed him, didn’t it?
[Darkover] We get that. Which makes them a different kind of Elf, Puma, not a separate species.
[Jenniearcheo] Or am I getting my guys confused?
[FloraWright] in the book she was a elf in the movie’s she was an elf there is no changing that
[Puma] Christine.go back to sil and see what mandos said to earendil and elwing
[Demetria] she was still immortal and bound to Middle Earth until all the elves and all their works were nothing more than memory
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, they made Tuor “numbered among the elder race.”
[Darkover] Earendil and Elwing had a choice, too, Jennie. Elwing chose to belong to the Eldar, and her husband went along with her.
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover and Demetria.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant Tuor
[Puma] elros chose to be judged among humans
[Puma] elrond with the eldar
[Demetria] exactly and her choice was the same as her father’s and uncle’s
[Puma] but the choice of the children of elrond were bound to his…..when elrond left.they had to make a choice
[Demosthenes] I think that’s the point where you kinda just have to roll with the story. In the same way that there’s really no magic/art but we accept that too.
[Puma] no.just her uncles
[Demosthenes] Otherwise you’ll go bonkers.
[sunshower] [--brain explodes
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Darkover] Right. and from that day forward, Elros was a Man, regardless of who he married. Arwen was an Elf. If you want to argue that she became of the race of Men when she married Aragorn, that’s plausible, but until then, she was an Elf.
[Jenniearcheo] [--- shakes brains off
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my too much information….
[Puma] she was not an elf
[ChristineGolden] They chose to be judged, judgment which only comes after death.
[Demetria] no, she always was an elf
[Darkover] Although the implication, judging by their conversation on Aragorn’s deathbed, was that she could have chosen Valinor even then.
[Puma] she had the same lifespan as an elf at that time
[Puma] arwen was never an elf
[FloraWright] elrond had to make a choice he picked elf then his sons had to choose they picked elf and arwen picked elf untill she met aragorn the she gave up on elf so to speak
[Puma] elrond was never an elf
[Demetria] yes, and with her choice, she was still an elf, though bound to Middle Earth
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, but did she have wings, or just winglike shadows?
[Darkover] Again, as I said before, if someone has the youth, immortality, beauty, etc. of an Elf, then that makes them an Elf. But beleive what you want, Puma. Clearly we are never going to agree.
[Puma] the choice of elladan and elrohir is unknown
[Darkover] Right, as FloraWright said
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was technically 3/4 elf, Puma, with a dash of Maiar.
[Demosthenes] If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck?
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] Jennie
[ChristineGolden] lol, pretty much.
[Demosthenes] I get that
[Puma] half elven does not mean blood…its a state of being
[Puma] and what it means.relates to the 2 different destinies of elves and men
[ChristineGolden] Of course it’s about blood, Puma. If you didn’t have elven blood, you didn’t get that choice. Aragorn was never asked if he preferred to be an elf.
[Darkover] Right
[Puma] idril.upon marrying tuor.did not become human.she was an elf
[FloraWright] im part native american and i have dark skin and dark hair if i marry a white man that doesn’t make me white
[Demetria] no, he was bound to the choice of Elros
[ChristineGolden] Very good, Flora! I was going to make a similar comparison, but thought it may not be quite “PC.”
[Puma] its an improtant point jrr was trying to make.sorry if some of you dont see it
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2when u marry a mortal u do not stop being an elf..it is imposible
[ChristineGolden] Arwen and Aragorn, very loosely, Anameleth.
[Darkover] That’s right, Puma, Idril didn’t change. She didn’t have the luxury of choice. But thanks to the Valar, Tuor did change. But up until the point he became Immortal and Elvish, he was a Man. Up until the point she chose mortality, Arwen was a blasted Elf. We are never going to agree, so can we move on?
[Anameleth] Ahh..
[Puma] she was never an elf
[Anameleth] Are we using the book or movies?
[Jenniearcheo] I think they dinged Tuor not because he married Idril but because he was going to retire to Valinor or sommat, right?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2Darkover take the lead…
[sunshower] book
[ChristineGolden] book
[Demosthenes] Okay, maybe we ought to move on.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my
[FloraWright] yes but elrond is a elf he said it him self he’s like 4000 years old
[ChristineGolden] specifically, appendix 5.
[Darkover] Sorry, Demosthenes, if I got a bit heated. But it seems to me we are chasing our tails, here.
[Anameleth] Okay. And puma, she was never an elf?!
[Puma] jrr wrote of this
[Demosthenes] No, i think we’ve exhausted that particular avenue.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could talk about the wedding. That’s usually a cheerful topic.
[Darkover] Sounds good! Especially as Aragorn wasn’t 100% sure Arwen was going to marry him, after all.
[ChristineGolden] And it is only one of two times Arwen is actually in the book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2we will never agree people so why we still talk about this..
[Anameleth] I was surprised at how little arwen was mentioned in the books
[Puma] she was referred to many times
[sunshower] her first time to speak was in Many Partings?
[Puma] but in subtle ways
[Darkover] In that, I think PJ did a better job. We didn’t find ourselves in the last movie saying, “who’s she?”
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2she only talks as queen isn’t she?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: And that was about Frodo specifically. But then it’s a hobbitcentric book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2in the end
[Anameleth] darkover, I totally agree
[sunshower] yep
[ChristineGolden] I hated her inclusion in the movies, Darkover.
[sunshower] We initially encountered Arwen in Many Meetings, got a few second hand peeks at her in a couple of the many chapters since, maybe a glimpse of her in the previous chapter, and now she’s back in Many Partings. Only now does Tolkien allow us to *hear* Arwen speaking.
[sunshower] Why now?
[Puma] arwen was important in the book
[Puma] but its subtle
[Demetria] agreed Puma
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2to that agree
[Darkover] Well, be honest, Chris, you mostly hated all the movies, didn’t you? so Arwen wouldn’t have been an exception
[Anameleth] She was important but hardly mentioned until the end of ROTK
[bld_th] thats why this appendix is important
[Demosthenes] If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!?
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn would have fulfilled his destiny, with or without Arwen, and become king of Gondor. After all, that’s one of the main purposes of the book.
[Darkover] We don’t really find out how important, or specifically in what ways, until the appendices
[Demosthenes] And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo?s neck. ?When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,? she said, ?this will bring you aid.?
[Demosthenes] A placebo? A “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] Does it work?
[Demosthenes] kind of
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I fell in love with FotR. I disliked the inclusion of all the Arwen scenes because it meant ones I loved in the book had to be cut. According to PJ, that is.
[sunshower] not entirely
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but there is no denying that Arwen gave him incentive. And certainly, Gondor would have had a different queen
[Puma] the main purpose of lotr…is as the sequal to the sil….to finish that story
[Demosthenes] It’s not morphine
[Darkover] I see, Chris
[Pete-Slagheaps] He used it after he got back home, “It’s all dark, Sam”–one of those monemts
[sunshower] Frodo carried the Ring on a chain for much (all?) of his journey.
[sunshower] Any thoughts on what his thoughts may have been as Arwen places a silver chain with a white gem around his neck?
[Jenniearcheo] But it didn’t ward off the dark
[Demosthenes] Which is why Frodo eventually takes the boat. I suspect Arwen knew that would happen.
[Puma] it sure helped
[Pete-Slagheaps] nope
[ChristineGolden] Are you saying that Aragorn had no other incentive to reclaim his throne other than Arwen, Darkover?
[Darkover] maybe similar to what Galadriel gave him?
[Puma] that the gem helped frodo is right there in the book.he would clutch it
[FloraWright] the same effect
[Darkover] Of course he had incentive, Chris. But maybe the incentive of love kept him from becoming embittered and/or arrogant along the way, as a simple attitude of “it’s my birthright, I deserve it” might have done.
[Darkover] Just speculation.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2maybe…
[Demosthenes] It helped somewhat i think puma. if it had been wholly effective, frodo would have stayed in the shire.
[Pete-Slagheaps] my “nope” wasn;t to you, puma, it was to Jennie. Even if it did help some, he still spoke of the fact that the ring was gone forever.
[Demosthenes] In a way it’s a similar thing to the Elessar (which came to Aragorn through Arwen) and to the Three.
[FloraWright] he really didnt half to leave
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Darkover, Aragorn was raised to defeat Sauron and reclaim his throne. I think it ran a lot deeper than ‘for love of a maid.’
[Pete-Slagheaps] (On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. ‘It is gone for ever,’ he said, ‘and now all is dark and empty.’)
[Demosthenes] All of those are focused on healing/preserving the hurts of the world. And Frodo is hurt by malice/sting/sword/etc.
[Darkover] But Aragorn might have remained a chieftain, like his predecessors, instead of becoming the King returned, without the additional incentive of, if you want to marry the woman you love, become king
[Darkover] again, we can’t know for sure, Chris. Just my thoughts
[Demetria] yes that choice was Aragorn’s
[Darkover] That seems to be a characteristic of all Elvish jewels, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was one of the thoughts i had in writing the blurb, that one simple meeting ion the woods drives him to become greater than he might have otherwise been.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2as i see it ..everyonr in this books had a choice..
[Darkover] I think you are right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I know, and I hate speculating about fiction since what’s in the book is all that happened, Darkover. I just think that Aragorn had a ‘bigger set’ and a destiny to fulfill, Arwen or no Arwen.
[Demetria] yes they did
[ChristineGolden] Whoa, that got by Barliman. I’ll have to remember that. ;p
[Darkover] I agree, Chris, but the way he fulfilled it might have taken on a very different form without Arwen. Again, we will never know. that’s why people write AU fanfiction.
[Demosthenes] Teasing out the percentage effect of Arwen is kinda impossible. But it’s certainly not nil.
[ChristineGolden] What is the name of G.. is AU fanfiction?
[sunshower] always unwanted?
[Demosthenes] Similarly, would Beren have done the same sort of things without Luthien?
[Jenniearcheo] lol sunny
[Pete-Slagheaps] Don’t ask, ChrostineGolden, you will get ill
[Darkover] “AU” means “Alternate Universe,” Chris. For example, if a fan wrote a story in which Arwen sailed to Valinor and Eowyn became Queen instead, that would be AU LotR fan fiction.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Christine, not Chrostine
[ChristineGolden] That’s good enough for me, Pete, thanks.
[Anameleth] I believe Aragorn had a, almost duty to fulfill, so to speak. To regain the throne. Amidst all of the chaos that he was going through, i believe that arwen was always a thought in his mind, but not his main goal.
[Demetria] no, Beren did it for the love of Luthien
[Darkover] Hey, Pete, there is some very good fan fiction out there. It just isn’t for everyone.
[Jenniearcheo] He was just, correctly, guessing her reaction to the Alternative Universe idea
[Pete-Slagheaps] It’s defintely *not* for Christine, Darkover, that was my point.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2arwen was his beacon of hope
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think it’s very disrespectful, Darkover, but that’s another discussion.
[Demosthenes] Yet “fate” drove him. fate drives Aragorn too. It’s a messy, inexact concept.
[Darkover] lol, I’m inclined to agree, Pete
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2everyone needs one
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Anameleth: Aragorn would have reclaimed the throne of Gondor, with or without his love for Arwen. Totally different than the other elf-man pairs. And why are the elves always women?
[Jenniearcheo] “Mind yer fate!” “My fate?” “Yeah! Them thaings on the ends of yer laigs!”
[Darkover] but providence is not, Demosthenes.
[Pete-Slagheaps] rofl, Jennie
[Demosthenes] haha
[Darkover] Maybe because women are more inclined to give up things for men, Chris, than the other way around.
[Darkover] That was weirdly funny, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Beren gives up a hand?
[sunshower] Jennie! LOL
[Jenniearcheo] It’s Eddings
[Pete-Slagheaps] and his bachelorhood
[ChristineGolden] It’s always a human man and an elven woman – that had to be deliberate.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but not for Luthien’s sake, but because he was foolish enough to think that would make the wolf get out of his way.
[Jenniearcheo] well, not on purpose, Dems
[sunshower] hi Vince
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gues and elven man won’t lower his standards, an elven woman would.
[Jenniearcheo] He thought it would work like Galadriel’s phial or something
[Demosthenes] True! Are there any last points that we’ve missed?
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] No, I think we’ve covered everything Arwen and Aragorn-related
[Demosthenes] I think we may have run through everything on the topic.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2elen men are heartless snobs
[ChristineGolden] Not that I can think off, Demosthenes.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2*elven
[Pete-Slagheaps] Dunno, Demz–I haven’t been here today, ment’ly
[Darkover] So, shall we talk with each other next time?
[Demosthenes] Well, I think we’ll call that a wrap. Thanks everyone. Next weekend we’ll be off to the golden hall. I think that’s right?
Session Close: Sun May 12 09:49:48 2013

Q: Greetings masters of lore. My question deals with the Nazgul. I know of Khamul, but I have not found the names of the other Nazgul. If they had names, what were they as well as who were they prior to their transformation? Furthermore, is there any story about their creation and why Sauron decided to choose them specifically?

-Reginold

A: Khamul seems to be the only named Ringwraith. What we know of him is given in the section “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales (1980). He was second to the Chief, and his name is given as Khamul the Shadow of the East. Some more about the Nazgul, or the Ulairi, can be found in some of the volumes of the History of Middle-earth, particularly in the section “The Story of Frodo and Sam in Mordor” in Sauron Defeated (1992), and in the work on the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings as printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996). But, unfortunately, the histories of the men who became the Nazgul seems nowhere to be specifically illuminated.

-Turgon

Update!

Okay, we’ve had a number of people writing in and saying that all of the Nazgul are named in one of the Middle-earth games. Yup, we know about that. But the truth is that those names were made up by the people who created the game, not by Tolkien, so we don’t view them as authoritative. They’re simply not in Tolkien anywhere!

- Turgon

Update!

A few eagle-eyed readers have noted a discrepancy between my comment above and Anwyn’s comment an answer from 9/12/99. Technically, Gothmog is described as the “Lieutenant of Morgul,” and this doesn’t tell us whether Gothmog is a Nazgûl, an Orc, or even a Man. Anwyn has interpreted that Gothmog is a Nazgûl. She may be correct, but it is not certain. In any case, a Captain can have more than one Lieutenant, so if Gothmog is a Nazgûl, and Khamul is the second to the Chief, Gothmog could have been the name of another Nazgûl.

- Turgon

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Q: In The Hobbit, at the start of the quest, the dwarves believed that Gandalf was going along with them to Mount Doom [sic], 13 dwarves + 1 Gandalf = 14 in the Party; why were they worried about another member….. and if so surely they could’ve found another greedy dwarf?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: Actually, in The Hobbit the ultimate destination was not Mount Doom, but rather the Lonely Mountain, otherwise referred to as Erebor, once the seat of Thrór’s Kingdom in the North. The clearest answer regarding Bilbo’s inclusion with Thorin Oakenshield’s party is found in the pages of Unfinished Tales (1980). Look in Part Three: The Third Age, Section III: “The Quest of Erebor.” Here we learn of a conversation where Gandalf explains to Gimli, Frodo, Pippin & Merry how he had a chance meeting with Thorin many years earlier and learned of the dwarf’s burning desire for revenge. Originally, Gandalf was not impressed with Thorin’s poorly strategized plans of making armies and war against Smaug. He meant to convince him that stealth and secrecy was his best course of action. Gandalf also had other plans of getting rid of the dragon so that Sauron would not use him as an extension of his power. The wizard himself never intended to go along with Thorin’s Quest, but he knew of a certain Hobbit that he thought would be a valuable asset.

“Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world.”

The dwarves were very much against adding Bilbo to the party, especially after meeting him in person, and it took a LOT of convincing on Gandalf’s part to get Thorin to yield to his counsel.

“‘Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!’ I said. ‘If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.’”

In the end, a deal was struck where Thorin reluctantly took heed of Gandalf’s urging; allowing Bilbo to accompany them in exchange for Gandalf’s temporary inclusion in the party.

“‘Very well,’ Thorin said at last after a silence. ‘He shall set out with my company, if he dares (which I doubt). But if you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too and look after your darling.’

“‘Good!’ I answered. ‘I will come, and stay with you as long as I can: at least until you have discovered his worth.’”

And so the inspired number of 14 was created at the last possible second. The poor hobbit was “volunteered” because of Gandalf’s unswerving conviction that Bilbo was more important than anyone foresaw, and also because of his exceptional debating skills with Dwarves. Please see Unfinished Tales (1980) for the full account.

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

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Q: Why did Sauron never come forth himself to do war? Couldn’t he have flattened all of Minas Tirith with one outstretched hand?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: Perhaps. But perhaps not. Remember that without the Ring, Sauron was not at his full power. When he created the Ring, Tolkien tells us that he allowed “a great part of his own former power [to] pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.” This allotment of power to the Ring seems to have been permanent. This is evidenced by the fact that if he *could* have won the War without the Ring, he would have done so. *With* the Ring, he would have been terrifyingly unstoppable. Without it, he had perhaps half, perhaps as much as two-thirds the power he possessed in the end of the Second Age, when it took *all of the combined power of Elves and Men* to defeat him. I.E. the Last Alliance of Gil-Galad and Elendil, when both races brought out and sacrificed their best to defeat him. When at last he was defeated and the Ring stripped from him, he became crippled as regards the amount of his power. Tolkien seems to imply that he was able to nurse himself back to health somewhat when he states “always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes shape and grows again.” But it is clear that he could never return to full power without the Ring. So the conclusion is that if he could be attacked and defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, Elendil’s sons and the Hosts of Gil-Galad *with* the Ring, then perhaps the combined might of Gandalf, Aragorn, the Sons of Elrond, Theoden, Eomer & Eowyn, Denethor’s & Theoden’s armies, and Faramir… could have defeated him *without* it. I think it’s safe to say that if he could have captured Frodo and regained the Ring, we probably would have seen him make some attacks in a more personal way, but it’s as Denethor said: “He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?”

-Anwyn

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Q: The Istari are a council of wizards. They number 7 total but we only know about 3 of them, Saruman the White/Many colors, Gandalf the Grey/White, and Radagast the Brown. Each had their own particular abilities and interests. Who are the other 4 and what are their interests/abilities?

-Karl J. Jurek

A: This question has been asked by many visitors to the TheOneRing.Net. As to the Istari, only three seem to play any role in events related to The Lord of the Rings, Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, and Radagast the Brown. Saruman’s outburst at Orthanc, when he spoke of ‘the rods of the Five Wizards,’ seems to have been letting out some private information. Nowhere in The Lord of the Rings do we learn anything more about the two other wizards, though Tolkien seems to have considered the question on a few occasions, and come up with a few different theories. Some of Tolkien’s notes on the Istari appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). In one of these passages, apparently written around 1954, Tolkien named the other two as Ithryn Luin, ‘the Blue Wizards,’ who passed into the East and never returned. Some other notes indicate that they were named Alatar and Pallando. To complicate matters, some more notes are published in The Peoples of Middle-earth(1996), in a small section “The Five Wizards” in the section titled “Last Writings.” There Tolkien wrote:

“No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in the lands west of Mordor.” In a still further note, Tolkien wrote: “The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion…”

These various notes are very interesting, and certainly worth looking up. Plus they give as best an answer as we’ll ever know to questions about the Istari.

-Turgon

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Q: If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: First of all, your question lies more in the realm of subjective interpretation than it does in hard black & white facts. But my best interpretation is this: If you look closely at the text, Samwise does not actually refer to Bill Ferny as ‘Bill’… it seems he was using the Hobbit-ish practice of referring to an individual by the informal means of last-name-only, ‘Ferny.’ Perhaps because of his contempt for Bill Ferny we never hear Samwise give the courtesy of addressing him by first name. Several chapters later, before the Fellowship makes their departure from Rivendell, Samwise names the pony. Certainly not out of memory of Bill Ferny, but maybe because he was just fond of the name ‘Bill.’

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

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Q: Why do the Black Riders, though painted as so utterly terrifying, seem to have so little power for actual harm?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: My answer to this is in two parts: the answer that is indicated by the content, i.e., what is it about the characters that makes them this way, and secondly the fact that it constitutes a literary device that Tolkien used.

Part One: Yes, the Black Riders are terrifying. But what is the main strength of their image? Just that: an image. The tall, black shadow. (Please, don’t anybody jump on the George Lucas/Jar Jar Binks racism bandwagon. I am using “black” here not as a color of a person/creature, but as Darkness, or a Shadow. Evil images, not skin color.) The tall black shadow, towering over smaller creatures, intimidating. Tolkien tells us their weakness flat out. They do not see well, hardly at all, in daylight. Thus they are at the mercy of the black horses for direction and guidance much of the time. They can smell. Well and good, but it takes time to sniff out prey, and as we’ve seen, rescue or help can come in the time it takes to sniff somebody out. The five Black Riders, advancing over the lip of the dell… horrifying image. But what was the main fear? The knife. They had to rely on steel weapons just like the “good guys,” or at least until Frodo succumbed to the temptation of the Ring and became one of them, visible in their world, when they would then be able (presumably) to wrest the Ring from him by force. Again, in Return of the King, we see the Witch-King relying on a weapon, his mace, to kill Eowyn. So when it comes to actual physical combat, they are hampered by their limited daylight vision, and just as reliant upon weapons as any mortal. We’re not talking about Dungeons and Dragons dark mages or dark clerics here, who can cast spells with a single word. No. These are formerly mortal beings who have crossed into the spiritual realm, but are still able to wield a presence in the physical. Personally I think they’re fortunate to be able to wield the influence that they do! Now if Frodo were to put on the Ring, it would be another matter. They got him with the knife when he put it on at Weathertop, and they would have done more had not the others with their flaming brands driven them away. At that point they let them alone not because they couldn’t do more, but because they believed there was no need: the wound would overcome Frodo and all they had to do was follow, and he would fall into their hands. So spiritually, they are a horror to any rational being. Physically, they are hampered, and can be foiled with fire, rushing water, and even by broad daylight.

Part Two: I believe Tolkien deliberately used them this way to create a literary device by which Frodo would have no choice but to continue the journey. Everybody has to have some strong motive for leaving their home and pursuing a Quest. Desire to serve the Good is one motive, but Fear is usually stronger. With these creatures driving behind, Frodo and the gang had no choice but to continue to Rivendell or risk capture and wraith-making at the hands of the Black Riders and the Dark Lord. Since my other answer was so long, I’ll keep to that. I think it’s clear enough.

-Anwyn

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Q: Why do the Eagles never show up until the very last minute?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: I must confess I stole this question from a friend of mine who was frustrated with The Lord of the Rings because he felt Tolkien used too much of what is known as “deus ex machina.” Basically what this means is that just as soon as we see the hero getting into a situation that looks totally inextricable, something we never knew could be part of the equation swoops in to rescue them! As I understand it, it’s based on an old technique of Greek Theater–when the hero got into trouble, they raised him out of the action in a chair, signifying that the Gods had stepped in to rescue him. Thus, “deus ex machina” or “machine of the gods.” So the Eagles, in three instances, act very much like our chair of the gods. First in the Hobbit, rescuing the party from Wargs and goblins and coming in at the last minute in the Battle of Five Armies, then in The Lord of the Rings, helping to win the battle before the Black Gate, and most importantly, pulling Sam and Frodo out of the lava once their Quest was complete. Not to mention Gwaihir’s little “side trips,” rescuing Gandalf from the pinnacle of Orthanc and bearing him from the top of Silvertine.

Now why is this, that if they were such a force to be reckoned with, that they did not come south and join the armies to begin with? Why would they only offer help when it was dire? Doesn’t it say something about their character that they would hold back until things were desperate?

My answer is, I readily admit, not verifiable in print. I can only offer a hypothesis that fits the facts and let you take it as you will. My opinion is this: they are animals. Talking animals, yes, but animals nonetheless. As such they are not one of the Free Peoples. Now, Tolkien’s use of animals falls into two categories: much beloved servants, such as the horses of the Rohirrim, Shadowfax and Sam’s faithful Bill. Or, they fall into the villainous category, usually in the form of giant spiders (Mirkwood and Shelob) but also the horrible carrion beasts which carried the flying Riders. (Servitude again, but for the other side.) I think the Eagles fall into this category also, kind of an antithesis to the horrible carrion creatures of the Riders. We do not know about the intelligence of these creatures. They may have been speechless animals, but they retained enough intelligence to know a foe (recall the beast “screaming” at Eowyn after she defied the Witch-King). The Eagles retain that much intelligence and much more, so that they can put forth their strength for the use of the Good when they are most needed, but perhaps know they would not fit into the grand scheme of the war as a regular force. I guess they would fall into the category of Special Forces, used as a last resort! But that is my answer, that as animals they are not one of the free peoples and their primary role is service to the Good, *when* it becomes necessary. Even Shadowfax was not in use all the time, and when Gandalf wasn’t riding him, he did not go out to war as a soldier.

-Anwyn

Update!

Well, folks, some readers thought that I was not specific enough with my Eagles answers. There were several people who wrote in to tell me the following information, so I’m only posting a few versions. Thanks to all who wrote to clarify for me!

–Anwyn

The answer to the question of the Eagles lies in The Silmarillion. It is revealed there, that the Eagles and the Ents were both, in a sense, agents of the Valar (of one particular one, in fact, the one associated with nature-was it Yavanna? I’m at work and can’t look it up). They were created after she saw what had been done in the creation of the dwarves. So the Eagles only interfere when the Valar allow, so the deus ex machina is an appropriate analogy indeed. (There are also one or two instances where they interfere in The Silmarillion – one I recall was the rescue of Fingon-I think-from Thangorodrim.)

–Tim Frankovich

As an aside on the subject of the Eagles, and why they are usually late to the fray… Manwe‘ was the Lord and Master of the winds and the creatures of the winds, and so the appearance of the Eagles at the last minute is seen as a form of Divine intervention (the form being the Valar overriding their usual modus operandi and stepping in to influence events in Middle-earth).

–Tony Hillerson

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Q: Did Tolkien ever draw a detailed map of Numenor? If so does anyone out there know where its possible to find one?

-Aaron

A: Tolkien only ever drew one sketch-map of Numenor, and Christopher Tolkien redrew it to appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). It’s facing page one of the Introduction in the Houghton Mifflin hardcover edition.

-Turgon

Update!

Also: For an in-depth look at Numenor and many other fantastic maps of Middle-earth, grab yourself a copy of The Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. This book has been around for many years, but with Christopher Tolkien’s publication of The History of Middle-earth volumes, many changes were made and a new edition appeared. You’ve never seen anything so comprehensive in your life! Zillions of details from all Four Ages and across all the volumes of Tolkien’s masterworks are represented. Cartography, languages, battles, journeys, and amazing cross-sections of underground cities. I highly recommend it as a companion piece to anything you read by Tolkien, and you’ll never be lost in the woods again! The paperback edition is readily available on Amazon.com.

The main character is really Samwise Gamgee, though you may not know it. I’m telling you now, it’s all about Sam.

You can safely argue Frodo Baggins should be the centerpoint of the tale. In The Hobbit Bilbo had the limelight for an entire book, and no one came close to grandstanding him (except maybe Smaug). Seems like Tolkien intended to chronicle the history of the Baggins family; first through Bilbo’s adventures–then with Frodo inheriting more adventures than he bargained for.

The story takes Frodo’s point of view often enough. Throughout the trilogy we share his experiences though personal sensations, his internal thoughts, and even his dreams. Tolkien lets us inside his suffering. And through that suffering we understand the dynamic of true sacrifice. He’s the Ringbearer, after all.

But a character-driven story like LOTR is not strictly about sacrifice (or heroism, or the impermanence of beauty, or all those themes that are intrinsic). I must admit the novel is woven of many threads but the groundwork of the tale, the telling of it, spins on a single proviso: Who is transformed the most between the opening and the closing page, taking the reader through his transformation?

Aragorn is the most heroic character. But it’s not his story.

Gandalf is greatest manipulator of events. But it’s not his story.

Sauron is the ever-present antagonist. But it’s not his story.

Let me give you the clearest example from another fantasy, familiar to all but the most sheltered–Star Wars. You think the original Star Wars films are about some farmboy named Luke Skywalker? You think he’s the main character? BUZZZ! I’m so sorry… thanks for playing! If you had said Darth Vader, you’d be walking home with the grand prize.

The guy in the black helmet is pulling all the strings. Vader begins the first scene of the first episode by walking through that laser-blasted door looking for Leia. He is the first character the audience has a relationship with. More importantly, his choices put the plot in motion for all three films. Every facet of the story we experience is an after-effect of what Darth Vader is doing. When Return of the Jedi comes to its conclusion, it is only after Vader’s most difficult redemption and after we see his glowing form with his predecessors, that we know the story is over. He’s redeemed. Roll credits. The end.

When you write a 1,200-page novel, you have the luxury of branching off into other subplots and you can take time to work with various characters. But you still need one common thread that thematically brings your story full circle. The transformation of Sam is Tolkien’s central storytelling device, though not the most obvious one. There are many clues that reveal Sam, not Frodo, as the main element.

Sam goes an extreme route: from simple gardener to a participant in legend. He starts things off in The Fellowship of the Ring as the first new character we learn about, through a description offered by his father, the Gaffer:

Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo’s tales… Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you.

So you see, our dear Sam is the contact point that we immediately relate to. Just like him, we are daydreaming of fairies, elves, and elephants. That is why Tolkien introduces Sam at once. All the magnificent events of the War of the Ring, the journey, battles, treachery and triumph, are diluted down to this profound effect: Sam is transformed beyond what he recognizes in himself. In the end he becomes the subject of all his dreams. Even he acknowledges that his feats might someday be the subject of future stories and songs.

Sam’s conversation with Frodo in the pass of Cirith Ungol says it all:

‘But that’s not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually–their paths were laid that way, as you put it… I wonder what sort of a tale we’ve fallen into?’

‘I wonder,’ said Frodo. ‘But I don’t know. And that’s the way of a real tale… The people in it don’t know…’

And when Sam realizes the grand stories of the First Age, of Beren and the Silmarils, are indeed connected to the present unfolding events he says:

‘Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on. Don’t the great tales never end?’

‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them come, and go when their part’s ended.’

To this Sam replies, ‘…Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales.’ And with that strangely self-referential remark, the Professor quietly moves Sam into his greatest moments of peril and deliverance.

As final proof, I offer a closer look at the novel’s conclusion. The epic story does not end with the destruction of the Ring, not even with Frodo’s departure from the Grey Havens. The final moment we cling to as the story closes its doors, is of Sam coming back to his family, sitting at his table and declaring that his role in the formation of a myth is done. Three simple words, “Well, I’m back,” are his final admission that there is no more story for him to contribute to.

Sam’s perspective is that he can finally return to domestic life without any further adventures. An end has come to chronicling his tale. He is now back with his family, back to his private life; and the intrusive eyes of future generations can leave him in peace.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam
———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on March 1st 2001 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

Every week on the Main Discussion Board, poster Roheryn shares a game she creates from Tolkien’s works.  We’ve been having fun playing SAST (Short Attention Span Theatre) from The Hobbit.  Come join the fun here.

In the Reading Room, posters are still discussing The Silmarillion.  They’re well into Chapter 12, “Of Men”. If you’ve ever wanted to delve into The Sil, but you weren’t sure you wanted to tackle the enormity of this deep Middle-earth history, the Reading Room is the perfect way to start.  Join them with Chapter 12 Part 1 and Part 2.

In Lord of the Rings Movie Discussion Board, we never get tired of sharing our favourite quotes from J.R.R. Tolkien’s works.  Stop by and let us know what yours are.

   There was a thunderous round of applause on the Feedback Discussion Board when Admin and long-time poster dernwyn pointed out that there are now banner circle pictures from The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey mixed with the LotR pics!  For those who haven’t visited the Boards, you really must go take a peek.  When you read posts or visit the main pages of each Discussion Board, take a look in the upper left-hand corner of your screen.  Up until now, there have been pics from The Lord of the Rings.  Check out The Hobbit pics here.  For those of us who live on the Discussion Boards, this is Awesome!!

   Want Hobbit Movie News? Each week, TORN poster DanielLB ventures into the very rich and fast-moving Hobbit Discussion Board to collect the Hobbit Headlines of the Week.  Check out this week’s action here.

   We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!

Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

If you live in Seattle or will be visiting it in the near future, check their website for all the details on location, hours and entrance fees. The Iron Throne will be there for just the first 3 months of the exhibit, so if you wish to see either that or the Tolkien Manuscripts, plan carefully. EMP Museum.

May 17, 2013
July 19, 2013
September 13, 2013
November 15, 2013
January 17, 2014
March 7, 2014
May 16, 2014
July 11, 2014
September 12, 2014
November 21, 2014

The presentations will be held in the Prucha Archives Reading Room (3rd floor, Raynor Library) and will run approximately 45 minutes. For more information on the archive and presentation, you can visit the J.R.R. Tolkien Collection’s website.

Shows

We had a wonderful time in April, attending 3 shows in Melbourne and the Gold Coast of Australia, and our first visit to CalgaryExpo in Canada. It was exciting to meet some new and old Flamers in person for the first time. We were especially grateful for the kind donations of chocolate for the crew !
Most of us just got back to work on Monday, a bit tired, but ready to get going again. And of course, we are only 2 months away from the Big Show; San Diego Comic Con. Time flies, we can’t wait ! We will be in the same booth space (3513B) as last year. This has now become our own Weta booth, we are no longer sharing someone else’s space. We will have our largest ever team of Weta crew at Comic Con this year. We’ll be announcing names soon. Please come and say Hi We are shipping out a container full of goodies to San Diego at the end of May, full of confidential, new stuff. We still have lots of work to do, as there are always a handful of items packed in at the last minute.

The Hobbit – 1/6th scale polystone range

We have now launched the first seven pieces in the 1/6th scale range: Thorin, Gandalf, Bilbo, Dwalin, Balin, Bombur and Gollum. Thanks so much to all of you who have supported this range, we consider these to be the best quality sculptures we have created. This will be our signature line for The Hobbit trilogy of movies and we have several more outstanding pieces in production. A lot of thought has gone into the poses, and how the various characters could be displayed together. We expect this will become clearer over time. We will most likely unveil the next sculpture in the range in July.

Some of you have asked why there are no creatures launched yet ? The reason is that most of the creatures are created in digital form for the films, and the digital work is normally finalized very late in the film making process. So therefore we could not start work on these creatures until very late last year. But never fear, they are coming !

The Hobbit – Environments

We had hoped to have launched an environment by now. We were actually building a few pieces last year. But once the decision was made to change from 2 to 3 movies, we had to put them on hold until the second movie is released.

The good news is that we do have 2 new environments in production now, so you will be seeing them at some stage soon.

The Hobbit – New Polystone Product Ranges !

Over the next few months, we will be launching some new smaller scale pieces, priced under US$100, including a few special pre-releases from the upcoming movie The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. Look out for these at Comic Con!

The Hobbit – Prop Replicas

Our Staves have been extremely popular. The first production of both the Staff of Radagast the Brown and the Staff of Gandalf the Grey, sold out even before they arrived in our warehouses. The second and final production run will take place over the next few months and we hope to release these final pieces before the end of 2013. We strongly suggest pre-ordering to ensure you don’t miss out.

The Key to Erebor is our highest selling item. We have sold out our stocks twice and are struggling to keep up with production

Daniel Reeve has had a great time creating hand made Contracts and Maps.

Jewelry from Middle-earth

Our new range of Jewelry from Middle-earth has been a huge hit, especially The One Ring in gold plated tungsten carbide, created by Jens Hansen Gold and Silversmith. We continue to struggle to keep up with supply for this item, the Evenstar and the Elven Leaf Brooch

We have a new Stone Pendant launching in the next week. Keep an eye out for it

The Hobbit – Maps and Art Prints

We now have a room in our office dedicated to storing tubes with all the Maps and art prints created by the artists who worked on the movies. We will continue to expand this range and would be grateful for a poll to vote on the scenes you’d like to see from LOTR and The Hobbit.

If you are coming to Comic Con in July, this would be a great opportunity to get some of these art prints signed.

You can also expect to see something new from Daniel Reeve soon too

The Lord of the Rings

There are a couple of items in production from LOTR.

The Fellowship of the Ring – Set 2 starts arriving in our warehouses over the next month, and will be followed up by Set 3 in a few months time. All three sets look fantastic displayed together, with a mirror set behind them, as we have done in the Weta Cave

We will also be releasing a new sculpture of Arwen soon, as part of the range of smaller scale pieces; Gollum, Gandalf and Strider

Next shipment

Our next shipments arrive in our 3 warehouses in the US, UK and NZ over the next month, including new pieces such as:

• The Fellowship of the Ring – Set 2
• The Pipe of Fili the Dwarf
• The Staff of Gandalf the Grey (already sold out)
• Gollum Enraged

Changing Warehouses in the US

In late May / early June, we will be changing our warehouse in the US. So if you are planning to make any orders in the near future, we recommend making your order in the next 2 weeks.

And for customers in North America, we will be announcing a range of special offers early next week, to help us reduce our inventory before we move to the new warehouse. Watch out for this in our next newsletter !

Cheers

Tim

You know those finely crafted little moments you always remember from a movie or play? Even if you don’t see the performers again the brightest or funniest quips will linger on. The best movie dialogue has a way of becoming oft-heard bon mots relished among water cooler conversation.

The same goes for literature but often in broader measure. The most impressive wordplay remains within your psyche long after you put the book down. When the rubber meets the road, it’s how a great writer is elevated above the ordinary herds.

Indeed one of the first things you learn about J.R.R. Tolkien is that his work is ripe with just such powerful language. His wonderful ability to play with tone, color, and emotion made it easy for me to select the following from The Lord of the Rings. These are my favorite one-liners (or two-liners), that stand out as having a striking impact. Consider this collection a literary sampler akin to “Tolkien’s Greatest Hits.”

Lord knows that the Professor himself would frown upon the idea, yet I present them playfully and respectfully. Whenever I read and encounter these moments I am forever impressed with intensity, humor, or remembrance.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Most bittersweet line:

“I have quite finished, Sam,” said Frodo. “The last pages are for you.”

Best exclamation of joy:

“Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!”

Most perfect description of beauty:

Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

Most poetic description of the weather:

The weather was grey and overcast, with wind from the East, but as evening drew into night the sky away westward cleared, and pools of faint light, yellow and pale green, opened under the grey shores of cloud. There the white rind of the new Moon could be seen glimmering in the remote lakes.

Most shocking moment:

But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss.

Most gruesome encounter:

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.

Most colorful analogy:

“Troubles follow you like crows, and ever the oftener the worse.”

Best example of friendly competition:

“Forty-two, Master Legolas!” he cried.

Most powerful moment of rage:

Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.

Best invitation to dinner:

“You shall come home with me! The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter.”

Wittiest rejoinder:

Saruman- ”For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!”
Gandalf- ”I liked white better.”

Spookiest moment:

Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. “It is gone forever,” he said, “and now all is dark and empty.”

Most gothic description of evil:

Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.

Most shrewd political advice:

“He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling.”

Single best piece of advice:

“Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.”

Single funniest line:

“…What’s taters, precious, eh, what’s taters?”

Funniest exchange between two characters:

Éomer- ”…For there are certain rash words concerning the Lady in the Golden Wood that lie still between us. And now I have seen her with my eyes.”
Gimli- “Well, lord, and what say you now?”
Éomer- ”Alas! I will not say that she is the fairest lady that lives.”
Gimli- ”Then I must go for my axe.”

Most beautiful dream sequence:

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.

Most enigmatic historical allusion:

“Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!”

Strongest statement of gender equality:

“In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen.”

Most romantic kiss:

And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.

Most exciting call of alarm:

AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!

Most intimidating description of geography:

Ever and anon the furnaces far below its ashen cone would grow hot and with a great surging and throbbing pour forth rivers of molten rock from chasms in its sides. Some would flow blazing towards Barad-dûr down great channels; some would wind their way into the stony plain, until they cooled and lay like twisted dragon-shapes vomited from the tormented earth.

Most beautiful sunset:

But in front a thin veil of water was hung, so near that Frodo could have put an outstretched arm into it. It faced westward. The level shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled with an unconsuming fire.

Most insidious falsehood:

“Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world.”

Most spectacular moment of destruction:

Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land.

Most moving speech on the battlefield:

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.”

Most Shakespearean dialogue:

“Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,” said Denethor. “Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse lay yet in the dregs?”

Most wonderful hobbit irony:

Then there was Lobelia. …and there was such clapping and cheering when she appeared, leaning on Frodo’s arm but still clutching her umbrella, that she was quite touched, and drove away in tears. She had never in her life been popular before.

Two moments that surely inspired the 60’s hippie counter-culture:

1. “Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!” … The hobbits ran about for a while on the grass, as he told them.

and

2. All that day they walked about in the woods with him, singing, and laughing; for Quickbeam often laughed. … Whenever he saw a rowan-tree he halted a while with his arms stretched out, and sang, and swayed as he sang.

Passage of utmost triumphant rapture:

And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

Line that always, always makes me weep uncontrollably:

There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Many of you certainly have your own take on what qualifies as the “most humorous,” “most shocking,” etc., and that’s fine too. This pursuit is a matter of taste, perhaps, but you cannot deny the foundation: Professor Tolkien showed his passion on every page, with every turn of phrase. Of his labors he wrote in a 1950 letter to Milton Waldman:

… It was begun in 1936, and every part has been written many times. Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered. And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered.

No better insight can be given towards understanding the perfection of his tastes in authorship. Here is the major facet that most assuredly elevates him and his body of work. We, his eager readership, are indeed blessed with his remarkable and thoroughly romantic word craft.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam

———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on August 8th 2000 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!

This month we’re asking questions of director/producer/actress of Born of Hope, Kate Madison.

Kelvarhin: Thanks so much Kate for agreeing to take part this month. I thought we’d start with grammas old favourite…

What was your favourite cartoon to watch when you were growing up?

Kate: I think I probably had a number of favourites.  I’m not a morning person nowadays but I remember getting up very early at the weekend to watch cartoons.  I really enjoyed shows like The Mysterious Cities of Gold, Dogtanian, Pigeon Street, and Thundercats.

Kelvarhin: What is it about Arathorn’s (and Gilraen’s) story that interests you most, and was this the reason for you making the story?

Kate: I came across this story when reading through the appendices.  Tolkien gives us just a few intriguing tit bits and it made me want to know more. Aragorn is a hugely important character who goes on quite a journey from unknown Ranger to King yet we know nothing about him.  Somehow this strange guy sitting in the corner of a pub in Bree ends up King.  I wanted to know where he came from, what his life was like before he met the Hobbits and what his parents were like.  What made him the man he was?  I wanted to find a way to show qualities in his parents that would make him the man he became.

Kelvarhin: If you could, how would you incorporate Arathorn and Gilraen into The Hobbit and or the LOTR films (via flashback, perhaps in Rivendell etc.)?

Kate: Well I guess in LOTRs they would be flashbacks or ghostly memories.  However in the Hobbit you could always show Gilraen and Aragorn at Rivendell.  In a way I kind of hope that PJ doesn’t do that because it’s nice to have my actors unique to those roles.  It’s one of the things people like about BoH and why you can watch my film alongside PJ’s. Of course PJ could always cast us!

Kelvarhin: What is your favourite book, and would you consider making a movie out of that one?

Kate: If you’re referring to other books by Tolkien then I have to admit, shamefully, that I’ve not actually read many of Tolkien’s other books, although I do own a number. For someone who spent many years making a Tolkien fan film I’m not actually very well versed in all of Tolkien’s wonderful stories which I’m always ashamed to say in front of Tolkien fans.

Now if you are being more general than I would love to make a movie about Anne McCaffrey’s Dragon Riders of Pern. Also, one of my recent projects was to make a promo about Anne Bonny and Mary Read the two famous female pirates of the Golden Age and I think James L Nelson’s The Only Life That Mattered that explores their story would make a great movie.

Kelvarhin: You have been granted an infinite amount of money and time. Which Middle-earth story would you film/produce next, and why?

Kate: Well as I’ve just admitted I’m not well versed so I couldn’t really say.  Tolkien wrote so many great stories but I think I’d be interested in exploring things that he has only hinted at – kind of like I did with Born of Hope.  For example, Halbarad is a character featured in Return of the King and I briefly show him in BoH too.  It might be nice to learn more about him.  Maybe show his quest to gather the Grey Company and ride to Aragorn’s aid.

Kelvarhin: Wouldn’t mind seeing that too, I was always disappointed that Halbarad and the Grey Company were left out of the LOTR films.

Kelvarhin: If you could travel to anytime and anyplace in Middle-earth’s history, where would you go, and would you take Arathorn or Gilraen with you?

Kate: Gosh well there are so many great places and probably a huge amount I don’t know about.  The Shire would be a great place to kick back with a beer and good friends, whereas the Gray Havens are probably beautiful.  I’d love to visit Aragorn and Arwen and family in the fourth age.  If I could bring Arathorn and Gilraen to visit them too that would be amazing.  If I had the chance to make my own piece of Middle-earth then I have dreamed of building my own Edoras ever since I saw PJ’s version.

Kelvarhin: You’ve said that your next project will not be Tolkien related, and I am wondering what it will be….can you tell or give a hint? You did such a great job on BoH that I am wondering if the next film will be fantasy based or not?

Kate: I do really love fantasy. My next major project is a fantasy web series called Ren. It tells the story of Ren who is possessed and her face branded by a powerful ancient spirit, which leaves her feared by all who see her. Far from home and hunted by the powerful ruling order of the Kah’Nath she refuses to accept her fate and journeys across the land to discover what she is and if there are any others like her. Joined on her perilous quest by a small band of outcasts, led by the charismatic Hunter, she discovers that the truths she has been taught may all have been a lie.

Ren will tell a serious story with amazing fights, epic scenery, a strong female lead, a splash of humour and fantastic characters we will all fall in love with. I’m really excited about this new project and I hope that you guys will be too. I’m running a Kickstarter for the project, which will go live in a week or so and there’s also a FB page you can like https://www.facebook.com/rentheseries.

Kelvarhin: And, are you considering a future Tolkien influenced film?

Kate: I think any fantasy project I do will be influenced by Tolkien but as getting the rights to make films of Tolkien’s work is so difficult and expensive I doubt I will do an actual Tolkien film.

Kelvarhin: Could you give us some background about your company, what inspired you to start it, where do you find actors, etc.?

Kate: I started Actors at Work Productions back in 2003 when I wanted to start producing work. I came up with the name after an acting class. The teacher mentioned that he loves it when an actor suddenly does more than just what’s on the page and he’d say “Oh, actor at work!” I thought this would work well for me, as an actor wanting to do more. It’s actually not officially a limited company, more a name under which I work, and there’s no team, it’s just me. I have just set up an official company called Mythica Entertainment Limited for producing Ren.

Regarding finding actors. I have never yet worked with a casting director so there are a number of places in the UK that I use. Websites like shootingpeople.org, Casting Call Pro, and Mandy are places that I have advertised in the past. I do also use my mailing list and various FB pages to advertise castings.

Kelvarhin: Do you know if Christopher Tolkien watched BoH?  Or if  Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens have watched BoH and did you get any feedback from them?

Kate: Regarding both of these questions I’m afraid I have never heard from any of these people.  I would love to know and I’d be surprised if Peter Jackson has not at least heard about Born of Hope even if he’s not actually watched it.  I have a friend currently working on the Hobbit pickups and am very tempted to send her the film to hand it to PJ.

Kelvarhin: You wore many hats for Born of Hope, and according to your IMDb page you have worked behind and in front of the camera, in the thick of production, and in locations. (I’m sure you can guess where I’m going here.) What aspect of film making interests you most, and do you think you will ever settle into a specific role in the production process?

Kate: Lots of people, including close friends, have asked me this question and to be honest I still don’t know.  I really enjoy acting but it’s such a hard field to compete in plus it’s sometimes hard to turn my filmmaker head off when acting.   Producing and directing is hard work but it’s great to bring a project to life.  I must have a bit of a control freak nature as I can find it hard working on a production in a smaller role with no power to change things if I think it’s not going right   One area that I’ve not worked in much but I do feel I would enjoy is the art department.  I love sets and props and costumes.  I never studied art but I do enjoy it and I find that the visuals of a project I’m working on is a very high priority for me.

Kelvarhin: BoH was a noble effort. It is true that most professional film makers don’t often have the luxury of following their passion. Even GDT said recently that “your [film] career is what happens while you’re making other plans.” I’m wondering, has Born of Hope made breaking into a film career more difficult, or has it opened some doors for you that were not open before?

Kate: It’s hard to tell really.  It’s not like Hollywood has been calling since BoH has been online.  I think there are a number of people in the industry who know about BoH even if they’ve not seen it just because of all the publicity we had.  Even if people don’t know of the project, being able to say that I’ve made a film that has been seen over 20 million times is pretty amazing and should get some attention when used to promote me and my work.

Kelvarhin: A related question, how were the politics of doing what you guys did (ie an all volunteer feature length production)?

Kate: For BoH it wasn’t really a huge problem.  Obviously everyone deserves to be paid for their work but we had such a limited budget and as the film was not commercial and would never be making any money, everyone understood why it had to be non paid. Luckily making a fantasy film and a LOTRs one at that, attracts attention and most people just loved the idea of working on such an unusual and ambitious project.

Kelvarhin: It seems Born of Hope was inspired as much by Jackson’s films as it was by Tolkien’s writing. As far as production design goes, did you envision a film that fit seamlessly with Jackson’s films?

Kate: Absolutely that was exactly the point.  The genesis of Born of Hope was right around the time of the Return of the King and Jackson was the person to really introduce me to Middle-earth.  The story was chosen to be able to fit with the Trilogy and not overlap characters.

Kelvarhin: If you haven’t already, why not can check out Kate’s film at www.bornofhope.com and follow her on Twitter @ActorsatWork

As always thanks to all our message board regulars, DanielLB, SirDennisC, Glaurung63, Hun200kmh, grammaboodawg and Rosie-with-the-ribbons, for this months’ questions.

If you would like to ask any questions yourself, just head over to our Message Boards, the sign up process is pretty painless. A lead post for questions is made at the beginning of each month on the Main board.  Or you can just check Main for each months interviewee and email me your questions at kelvarhin@theonering.net.

Till next time from TORn’s resident Tiger.

Kelvarhin

The following event(s) took place in Middle-earth on May 1^st:

• Gandalf and Bilbo reach Rivendell (1342)
• Sarn Ford where Gandalf and Aragorn met (1418)
• Crowning of King Elessar (1419)
• Elrond and Arwen set out from Rivendell (1419)
• Samwise marries Rose (1420)

May 1, 2942 (S.R. 1342)

1. Gandalf and Bilbo reach Rivendell.

(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

“It was on May the First that the two came back at last to the brink of the valley of Rivendell, where stood the Last (or the First) Homely House. “

(Tolkien, 1965 Ballantine, p. 279 Hobbit)

 May 1, 3018 (S.R. 1418)

1. Sarn Ford where Gandalf and Aragorn met

(not from the appendices)

“Strider looked grave. ‘I do not know,’ he said. ‘I came west with him in the spring. I have often kept watch on the borders of the Shire in the last few years, when he was busy elsewhere.”

(Tolkien, 1965 Ballantine, p. 234 FotR)

 May 1, 3019 (S.R. 1419)

1. Crowning of King Elessar.

(from the appendices)

“…upon the White Tower of the citadel the standard of the Stewards, bright argent like snow in the sun, bearing no charge nor device, was raised over Gondor for the last time.”

(Tolkien, 1965 Ballantine, p. 302-304 RotK)

2. Elrond and Arwen set out from Rivendell.

(from the appendices-no text)

On the day Aragorn entered the City to claim his kingship, a great Company departed from Rivendell to journey to the south.

May 1, 3020 (S.R. 1420)

1. Samwise marries Rose.

(from the appendices)

“‘It’s Rosie, Rose Cotton,’ said Sam. ‘It seems she didn’t like my going abroad at all, poor lass….”

(Tolkien, 1965 Ballantine, p. 376 RotK)

Welcome to our collection of TORn’s hottest topics for the past week. If you’ve fallen behind on what’s happening on the Message Boards, here’s a great way to catch the highlights. Or if you’re new to TORn and want to enjoy some great conversations, just follow the links to some of our most popular discussions. Watch this space as every weekend we will spotlight the most popular buzz on TORn’s Message Boards. Everyone is welcome, so come on in and join in the fun!

The Main and Off Topic Discussion Boards have been hosting TORn’s very own holiday.  Read all about it and join in the games here at the 2013 Founders Day and TORn’s 14th Anniversary Party Links.

On The Hobbit Discussion Board, posters are already anticipating the next 2 films as they anticipate the Epic Scenes that could be shown.  Check out the dreaming here.

Over in the Reading Room, poster Arannir shared a fascinating thought of the Things Tolkien never stated but that you always assumed.  Join in with your assumptions here   OR share your Favourite Tolkien quotations here.

We’ll share more topics next week and hope you can join in on the conversation!  Don’t forget, TheOneRing.net’s Message Boards have over 9,600 registered Tolkien fans, just like you.  Let your voice be heard!