…The boy nodded his understanding. “Can I ask you something?” The Jedi Master nodded. “What are midi-chlorians?” Wind whipped at Qui-Gon’s long hair, blowing strands of it across his strong face. “Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.”…

…”Use the Force, Luke.”…

…Raistlin lifted his thin, frail hand and allowed the spell component he had taken from his pouch to fall slowly from between his fingers onto the deck of the boat. Sand, Tanis realized. “Ast tasarak sinuralan krynawi,” Raistlin murmured, and then moved his right hand slowly in an arc parallel to the shore….

…”The One Power,” Moiraine was saying, “comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time.”…

Bibbidi, bobbidi, boo.

There seem to be almost as many ways of representing magic as there are fantasy writers. Role-players know the whole system with mages, spell components, spellbooks, the language of magic, etc. Jordan fans can tell you the ins and outs of the One Power, complete with a discourse on the varying characteristics of saidar and saidin, and the innumerable levels of strength among Aes Sedai. And Star Wars geeks (a word I use with love, considering that I myself am a dyed-in-the-wool geek!) were stunned when Lucas started explaining the universe-balancing Force with microscopic middlemen, instead of with the innate power of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. What ties them in common is that they each have a system, a framework with rules and laws almost more complicated than those of physics. Mages lose their spells after one casting, and must rest and recommit the words to memory before casting again. Aes Sedai spend years in training, because abuse of the One Power can too easily lead to death… and evidently you’ve got to be well-stocked on single-celled symbionts (is that even a word? My spellchecker sure doesn’t like it) to even make a dent in the Force. Fantasy writers delight in coming up with their own, hopefully brand-new systems, to give their books that added twist, that spark that no other sword-swinging Elf-hopping kender-singing dragon-flying books have. But what about Tolkien? Where is the system? What are the rules which govern the making of Rings of Power, which delineate the powers and limits of Istari, of Maiar, of Valar? He never talks about a framework or physical laws; we only see the results of the power’s use. Where does the power come from?

“It’s wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there’s any magic about, it’s right down deep, where I can’t lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.’

‘You can see and feel it everywhere,’ said Frodo.

‘Well,’ said Sam, ‘you can’t see nobody working it…I would dearly love to see some Elf-magic, Mr. Frodo!”

These passages between Sam and Frodo in Lórien are just about the only overt use of the word ‘magic’ in all of Lord of the Rings. Sam’s feeling, as it usually is for most of us, is that if ‘you can’t see nobody working it,’ then it must not be the real stuff. But I think Tolkien had another image in mind. He seems to have taken his love of nature and the natural order of things to such an extent that he would rather not impose an unnatural system of rules governing a supernatural power–what we term magic. Instead, it seems clear that Tolkien regarded extraordinary power as part of the natural birthright of individual beings, and as such, therefore, the exercise of that power was simply part of the settled order of events. Not magic, but just the use by each individual of the power vested in him or her–to the best and highest of his or her own abilities, be they the greatest of the great or the smallest of the small. And in fact, he regarded the traditional definitions of the word “magic” as tantamount to the evil Machine that tears up the normal fabric of nature.

Beorn by Lelia

Think about it. We at Green Books are constantly getting questions from readers so accustomed to other systems that they almost demand a system in Tolkien. “What were the exact powers of the One Ring?” “Does the magic in Lothlórien come from the Elves or vice-versa?” “What can Elrond do with his Elven-ring?” “How does Gandalf do magic?” We do the best we can to elucidate, but the plain truth of the matter is, Tolkien just doesn’t make rules. He expects us to accept at face value that Celebrimbor and his cohorts “forged” the Three Rings, that Fëanor “wrought” the Silmarils and contained within them the light of the stars of Varda, that Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel “use” their rings in some vague way for the protection and enhancement of their lands (in the cases of Elrond and Galadriel) and for the furtherance of their tasks (in the case of Gandalf). Even “What are the powers of Beorn? Why is he the only being in Middle-earth who can shape-change?” Well… because he just was. That was his individual power. Tolkien didn’t set out to create magicians who could manipulate a supernatural force. He created individuals who knew how to use their naturalpowers–and he delineated the difference between those who use their power for the sake of creation and those who use it merely for the sake of control.

Tolkien believed that human beings are endowed with creativity in order to share in God’s power of creation. He called this “sub-creation” and felt that he was making the most of his abilities in this line through his writing. It follows that the characters in his books would do the same. So everyone is endowed with his or her own abilities, and since he’s not limited to real human beings, but is free to imagine beings with greater powers of creation, the result is powers that to us are supernatural, but to him are merely the result of that being’s art. I am speaking, of course, of the wise and wonderful Elves. The forging of the Elven-rings is the best example, but their spellbound swords and beautiful works of cooperation with Dwarves also come to mind. A reader (thanks, Andróg!) sent me the exact quotation that details the nature of the Elves’ power, and, indeed, the difference between this power and “magic.” Letter 131 states: “Their ‘magic’ is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations; more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.” There you have it. Art for Art’s sake, and my favorite part–”product and vision in unflawed correspondence.” In other words, if they could think it (vision), then they could do it (product). No tiresome mechanics, no industrialized machines–just pure, unadulterated Art: sub-creation. Ultimately, what we would call magic is not, in Middle-earth, any such thing. It is simply the natural powers of created beings proceeding from them in yet another spiral of creation. And we know this power is inherent because Tolkien stated as much. The same Letter tells us: “By [the use of the word ‘magic’] I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents–or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of domination; bulldozing the real world, or coercing other will.”

So Tolkien divides power into two headings: The natural kind, proceeding from the desire of the being to sub-create, and ‘magic:’ a deliberate use of devices or machines with a corrupted motive. And in the use of the former, he stands alone in his system of creation. No other fantasy writer that I know has gone so far as he has with the Elves, given beings power that emanates as naturally as a flowing spring. True, there are other authors whose magic-users have innate talent, abilities, or senses not available to “ordinary” folks–but these special abilities are usually in existence in order to take advantage of an outside power: the Force, the One Power, or the generic, vague mysticism of “magic.” Tolkien’s Elves have no need of even the appearance of such supernatural forces, because the force of sub-creation is in them already, without any augmentation.

A pet musing of mine is to wonder how this “sub-creation” applies to beings besides Elves, Valar, and Maiar. Don’t bombard me with letters about Gandalf’s magic words, either, because he was a Maiar, and a badass, to boot, and could do whatever he wanted, with words or without ‘em, in any language he pleased. I’m talking about mortals, now. Aragorn son of Arathorn. Faramir of Ithilien. Samwise Gamgee. I believe very deeply that this power of sub-creation extended very thoroughly to mortals of ‘uncorrupted motive,’ even if the results weren’t always what we would call ‘magical.’

“Now he is a marvel, the Lord Elfstone: not too soft in his speech, mind you, but he has a golden heart, as the saying is; and he has the healing hands. ‘The hands of the king are the hands of a healer,’ I said; and that was how it was all discovered. And Mithrandir, he said to me: ‘Ioreth, men will long remember your words,’ and…”

So spake Ioreth, wise woman of Gondor, and we know it to be true. Aragorn showed his healing powers many times, but never to greater effect than when he healed Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry of the Black Breath during the last days of the war.

“At last, less than a mile from the City, a more ordered mass of men came into view, marching not running, still holding together.

The watchers held their breath. ‘Faramir must be there,’ they said. ‘He can govern man and beast. He will make it yet.’”

Our darling Faramir, a man of lore, yet scarcely less doughty in arms than his brother, and with a stern yet merciful attitude towards those under his command and in his power, had a gift for governance.

“Inside [the box] was filled with a grey dust, soft and fine, in the middle of which was a seed, like a small nut with a silver shale.

‘What can I do with this?’ said Sam.

‘Throw it into the air on a breezy day and let it do its work!’ said Pippin.

‘On what?’ said Sam.

‘Choose one spot as a nursery, and see what happens to the plants there,’ said Merry.

‘But I’m sure the Lady would not like me to keep it all for my own garden, now so many folks have suffered,’ said Sam.

‘Use all the wits and knowledge you have of your own, Sam,’ said Frodo, ‘and then use the gift to help your work and better it.’”

That last line sums up my entire feelings on the subject of mortals and sub-creation. Aragorn used athelas to help him in his healing, but undoubtedly part of the virtue of it sprang from his own hands. Faramir was versed in the lore and history of men, but he used his knowledge wisely and to good effect, being a good captain of his men and, in time, a steward and prince of his people. And our sweet Sam had a positive gift for growing things, no matter how much he was helped at that juncture by the gift of the Lady Galadriel.

Here’s the stickler: Just because the results aren’t conventionally ‘magical,’ doesn’t mean that a talent isn’t a gift of sub-creation. Any being, immortal or no, Elven or Human or Holbytla, who uses his or her inclinations and abilities to the fullest, and never forgetting that uncorrupted motive, is exercising his “inherent inner powers or talents”–a very personal form of magic that cannot be discounted. So many times in this dreary world we fall short of what we would like to accomplish with our abilities, through sloth or other impediments. Tolkien showed us not only otherworldly Elves whose gifts run to what we would consider outside the settled order of nature, but also very mortal characters who simply used their ordinary powers to the best and fullest extent. And the result, when compared with the many shortcomings and failings of human beings in this world, is very magical indeed.

- Anwyn

Red Carpet’s Premiere Tour group dressed up for their Hobbiton visit

Red Carpet is steadily adding new locations into its tours in the light of the new Hobbit movie, says director Vic James.

“We’re pretty excited because since the Unexpected Journey came out, we’ve been able to add new sites and new people,” James says. “We visit landowners and check out new locations on a regular basis, as information and invitations come to hand.

“The Premiere Tour last November was the first to visit some of the new places and when the time is right for further landowners to allow visits, we will add them in.”

The north island leg of the tour includes, as before, Hobbiton and the central volcanic plateau that served as Mt Doom. A new feature are some rapids where the dwarves’ more hair-raising barrel-riding scenes were filmed.

The ‘top’ of the South Island is a beautiful addition to the tour, James says.  Nelson, with its sunny bay ringed by mountains,  is reached by a ferry cruise through the beautiful fjords of Marlborough Sounds. There’s a stop along the way at Pelorus Bridge, scene of Bilbo and the dwarves’ barrel-riding adventures.

Red Carpet’s LOTR tours always include visits to extras, artisans, actors and crew members for the films. Halfdan Hansen, son of the real-life Ringmaker for LOTR, has  his studio in Nelson and has created a new version of the Ring, invisibly weighted with some denser metal so that it lies strangely heavy on the palm of the hand.

In Nelson there is also the option to take a two-and-a-half hour helicopter flight to Dimrill Dale and South of Rivendell.  The flights have been a huge success with tour guests.

Olympus Rocks – a place to hide from the spies of Saruman

To accommodate the extra locations, tours are now 14 days duration. People can also choose to join the North Island 6 day or the South Island 10 day options. “It’s a long way to come to not see it all,” James says.

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The (Biblical) Beacons of Gondor

By Tedoras — special to TheOneRing.net

This past April 28th happened to be the Jewish holiday of Lag B’Omer (the 33rd day of the Counting of the Sheaves, to be more precise). Now, you are probably wondering how this little-known holiday relates to The Lord of the Rings (and, if you’re like me, you’d like to know what a “sheaf” is, too). It turns out a sheaf is a bundle for cereal plants—fortunately for us all, though, my story has nothing to do with Biblical agriculture. Rather, it begins with The Return of the King.

If you are like me, you love those amazing fly-by shots from The Lord of the Rings films. One of the most epic sequences of such shots is the lighting of the beacons in ROTK (refresh your memory here). Whether your first encounter with these mountaintop fires was in literature or film, you probably thought it was an ingenious mode of communication. Certainly, they are by far the best means for sending urgent messages across long distances (and I hope the Gondorian who urged their construction was handsomely rewarded). In order to see the connection between these beacons and the aforementioned holiday, it is important to know the story of Lag B’Omer.

In short, Lag B’Omer commemorates a revolt in the year 131 CE. The Israelites, under the leadership of Bar Kochba, rose up against the Romans, who ruled the land at that time. Years before the Romans came, the Israelites had built a series of m’durot, or bonfires, upon the surrounding mountains. So, when the revolt began, (you guessed it) Bar Kochba ordered a beacon lit. A soldier took a torch to the top of a mountain, lit one the beacons, and thus sent word around the land that war had begun.

Certainly, the use of the beacons of Gondor to call for Rohan’s aid is reminiscent of this episode. Yet, was Tolkien inspired by this Biblical tale in his creation of the beacons? On the one hand, we know Tolkien was well-versed in the Bible; his contemporaneous English education saw to that. Furthermore, Tolkien was a lifelong scholar—thus, if not in school, it is likely he would have encountered this story on his own. Assuming Tolkien was acquainted with this tale, the unanswerable question here, of course, is whether or not he consciously recognized the Bible as their source.

However, on the other hand, a case can certainly be made that Tolkien knew not of the story of Bar Kochba’s revolt. For a realm the size of Gondor, it would make sense to have a system for mass-communication in the event of any important occurrence. And, while these beacons also housed fresh horses on stand-by for couriers, it is clear that signal fires would be a much faster means. The independent invention of the beacons is not only possible in terms of the technology available to Gondor at the time, but it is also becoming of the prudence and wisdom of the Gondorian kings of Old.

This is one of many familiar situations to us Tolkien fans: is there a “right” answer here? Personally, I do not think it really matters; I intended only to present a surprising and uncanny resemblance upon which I happened to stumble. But, of course, such a topic is up for interpretation—so I will let you decide for yourself.

Check out the Full article on Weta’s appearance: WETA TO ATTEND SUPANOVA SYDNEY AND PERTH IN JUNE

List of Middle-earth celebs making an apperance:

• John Callen – Oin the Dwarf
• Adam Brown – Ori the Dwarf
• Jed Brophy – Nori the Dwarf
• Karl Urban – Éomer
• Mark Ferguson – Gil-galad

Join us for TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “I Haven’t Read The Books Yet” Sewell — as we discuss the unique characteristics of each Dwarf. We shall learn how they fit into the larger history of Tolkien’s legends — and what Peter Jackson & WETA did to help us distinguish these rough and tumble travelers from each other (using more than just colored hoods). Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

NEXT WEEK:  Bifur, Bofur…..  and Bombur, for real this time!

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Follow Cliff ‘Quickbeam’ Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

Back in September 1999, these were the questions on the minds of fans…

Q:What role did Glorfindel play after the incident at the Fords of Bruinen? I don’t remember any further mention of him and it seems strange that such a noble Elven Lord would not be involved at all in the War of the Ring.

- Quinton Carr

A: He wasn’t. But if you think about it, many “noble Elven lords” did not do anything *active* in the War after the Fellowship left Rivendell or Lorien. Elrond, Celeborn, noble Elven ladies like Galadriel, Arwen . . . their roles were peripheral. Not to mention the fact that I’m sure both Elrond and Celeborn had a goodly number of strong, well-armed Elves at their disposal, who didn’t go with the Fellowship *or* down to the battles in Gondor. But the answer is actually pretty simple, and Elrond gives it to us in “Fellowship:” “The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.” So that explains why none of them went with the Fellowship. Why did none of these mighty Elves save Elrohir and Elladan ride down to Gondor once it was clear that there would be battle? My answer has a couple of parts. Firstly, Elrohir and Elladan, according to the Tale of Years, were born after the wars at the end of the Second Age when Sauron was thrown down, and were not a party to them as their father was. They’d never gotten their “chance,” so to speak. As for the rest of them, they had all gone to war against Sauron at the end of the Second Age. They felt their time had passed, and moreover that the hour of the Secondborn was striking. They knew that the power of their Rings would fade if Frodo was successful, and that Men would rise and Elves would dwindle. They must have felt it was right for the men, i.e. the armies of Gondor and Rohan, to earn for themselves the privilege of ushering in the Fourth Age.

Now, I don’t know how long Glorfindel had been alive at this point. Whether he was around at the first overthrow of Sauron, I can’t say. All I know is that he, like Elrond and Celeborn and Erestor and Cirdan and all, elected not to go down to the war this time. Turgon says that there is some speculation about an earlier elf, also named Glorfindel, who had been killed in battle. The question revolves around whether or not this is the same guy, somehow returned to life and to Middle-earth, or is it a namesake? I haven’t delved into the History of Middle-earth volumes, but Turgon tells me more Glorfindel information can be found in the Peoples of Middle-earth, volume 12 of the History, on pages 377-384.

-Anwyn

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Q: I want to know if Bilbo was Frodo’s cousin or uncle.

- Heather Mackie

A: Chestnuts, chestnuts! The answer to this is in The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 1, page 1:

“Mr. [Bilbo] Baggins was generous with is money, … But he had no close friends, until some of his younger cousins began to grow up.The eldest of these, and Bilbo’s favourite, was young Frodo Baggins.”

If you take a look at Appendix C, “Family Trees” at the end of The Return of the King, you’ll see that Frodo was the Great-grandson of one Largo Baggins, whom Bilbo saw only as a Granduncle, if you can imagine such a thing. Now, according to modern American standards this familial relationship might seem quite thin, but in the Shire cousins are held very close to the heart, no matter how distantly related (unless of course you’re a Sackville-Baggins). Hobbits held great interest in their own genealogy, as Tolkien wrote, and the operative term “cousin” would probably be liberally applied to any of a number of different relatives.

- Quickbeam

Update!

Your answer about Bilbo and Frodo being “cousins” is accurate, as far as it goes. But their relation is slightly more complex than that, since they are related not only on the Baggins side, but on the Took side as well. But to explain it properly I have to refer to the technical names of different types of cousins, which most Americans, at least, do not understand.

A quick refresher course for those who do not share a Hobbitish interest in genealogy: the ordinal number before “cousin” (as in “first cousin”, “second cousin”, “third cousin”) refers to how many generations back you have to go before you reach siblings. If I had a son, he would be a first cousin with my sisters’ children. His children would be second cousins with my sisters’ grandchildren, and so on. Another way of looking at it is that first cousins share grandparents, second cousins share great-grandparents, and so on.

“Removed” refers to a difference in generation. Suppose I have a first cousin, and she has a daughter. That child is my first cousin once removed, the “removed” signifying that she and I are one generation apart. If she then had a son, that child would be my first cousin twice removed, and so on. If you think of a genealogical chart, you will notice that all first, second, third, etc. cousins will be on the same level horizontally; if you go one step down, you will get a “remove.”

All right: let’s apply this to Frodo and Bilbo. Looking at the chart in Appendix C, we find the common ancestor, Balbo Baggins. Among his children are Mungo and Largo; they are siblings. Mungo begat Bungo, and Largo begat Fosco; Bungo and Fosco are therefore first cousins. Bungo begat Bilbo, and Fosco begat Drogo; Bilbo and Drogo are second cousins. Finally, Drogo begat Frodo; therefore, Frodo and Bilbo are second cousins once removed — on the Baggins side.

But they’re also related on the Took side. Look at the Took family tree on the next page. You’ll see that Bilbo’s mother Belladonna Took was the sister of Mirabella Took, Frodo’s maternal grandmother. So (are you following this?) on the Took side, Frodo and Bilbo are *first* cousins once removed.

So while the short and easy answer is that Frodo and Bilbo are just cousins, the long answer is that, as the Gaffer explains on the third page of A Long-Expected Party:

“Mr. Frodo is his first *and* second cousin, once removed either way, as the saying is, if you follow me.”

I have no idea whether the readers of the Green Books would have any interest in this… but here it is, all the same.

–Si Rowe

Yes, indeed we ARE interested, and I appreciate the clarification! You’ve made easy work of this complicated family tree! And I really have no excuse for not knowing my trees.

–Quickbeam

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Q: Does Saruman survive after he is killed? Sauron was killed three times before he actually died. They were both Maia and they both had the same master Aulë the smith. So is it possible that Saruman lived?

–Saruman19

A: Very, very good question. Let me start by quoting you the passage that is also in my second “Counterpoint;” it is Saruman’s death scene.

“To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.” [Excerpted from Return.]

To me, this seems final as regards Saruman’s demise, but let me first interject an interesting thought: Was Sauron ever actually killed before the War of the Ring? When was the last time he had a corporeal body? He “perished” once in the drowning of Númenor, and beyond that, I don’t know to which other two times you are referring, unless you refer to him fleeing Angband for Mordor, then at the end of the Second Age when the Ring was taken from him. As far as that last time, does it say he was killed, or merely that the Ring was taken and he was defeated? Sauron had long ago lost the ability to keep a corporeal body, but it seems obvious to me that his spirit was never dissolved before the Ring was destroyed. His own folly in putting the majority of his original power into an object outside himself was his undoing, in that when *that* “corporeal body,” the Ring, perished, the part of his spirit/power that was in it was dissolved, and the rest of his spirit could no longer survive. And on a final note about Sauron, he had long ceased to acknowledge Aulë as his master, and had been Melkor’s servant for as long as anybody could remember.

So, the point I’m making is that Maiar, good or evil, do not “die,” no matter what the state of their corporeal bodies, until their spirits are dissolved. I think it’s safe to say that Gandalf’s original corporeal form was killed in the battle with the Balrog. But at the end of the day, it was the spirit of the Balrog that was dissipated, not Gandalf’s, and those in charge (i.e., Valar) saw fit to allow him to take on another body. Sauron did not have the power, after the theft of the Ring, to take a body any more, and Saruman still had his own body. Well and good. Well, when Saruman’s body was destroyed, then what was left was the spirit, and the hobbits witnessed this being blown away on the West Wind. I feel that this was the final destruction of the Maiar spirit that had been Saruman, and that he would not have survived this. On a final note, my fellow Green Books staffperson Turgon mentioned that he had always thought of the breeze that blew away the mist as the Breath of Manwë. Talk about your poetic justice!

–Anwyn

Update!

A reader has written in to direct me to be more specific about the “death,” before the return, of Gandalf…

–Anwyn

In your answer to the question about Saruman’s death, you make a reference to Gandalf being returned after death by the Valar. That’s not exactly correct.

Gandalf’s words and a couple of letters by Tolkien (I can look up the exact references if you’re interested) indicate that when he was killed in his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf’s spirit left this world entirely, going beyond even the Valar’s ability to interfere. He was returned and imbued with new power by none other than Eru Ilœvatar Himself, the One.

–Tim Frankovich

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Q: Do Tolkien’s Elves have pointed ears? (I’ve never found any reference to this in any of his writings, and many artists portray them without pointed ears…)

–Quinton Carr

A: This is a tough question that has baffled many Tolkien-readers for years and years. The only evidence there is, and it can be interpreted in several ways, comes from a letter Tolkien wrote to the American publishers of The Hobbit, sometime around March 1938. This letter, a response to a request for some drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, is published in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter no. 27, p. 35). Part of the description reads as follows: “A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’.” The quotes around “elvish” are Tolkien’s own, so what does he mean? Elvish, as in his own Elves? Or “elvish” as in what the recipient of the letter might think of as “elvish”–i.e., a more public idea of “elvish”? I suspect Tolkien meant the latter, but the remarkable thing here is that Tolkien does imply that Hobbits have ears which are “slightly pointed”.

–Turgon

Update!

Carl F. Hostetter pointed (no pun intended) us to another consideration that really makes a much stronger case that Tolkien intended his elves to have pointed ears. In “The Etymologies”, a very important work for the study of Tolkien’s Elvish languages, first published in The Lost Road (1987), the two entries given for the elvish element “las” show that “las”, as in the Quenya *lasse, meaning “leaf”, is possibly related to “las” meaning “listen”, and *lasse meaning “ear”. Tolkien wrote: “The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]” (The reading of the last word is uncertain in the lightly pencilled manuscript.) Fascinating!

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Q: What’s the deal with the “stone giants” that are mentioned in The Hobbit? Are they chronicled anywhere in the history of Middle Earth? Are they allied with good or evil? Did they have any part in the War of the Ring?

–Quinton Carr

A: To answer you in order: No, neither, and no. The singular mention of them anywhere seems to be only in The Hobbit, during that thunderstorm as the travelers attempted to cross the high pass through the Misty Mountains. They were given neither names nor station in the vast Tolkien legendarium, though most beasts and creatures were. Then again, not every single denizen of Middle-earth is revealed plainly. There was the slimy, tentacled Watcher in the Lake that assaulted Frodo and the Fellowship as they stood just outside Moria’s East Gate. Consider it one of those occurrences where the mystery of the thing is an important storytelling device. Gandalf gives no details, no history, to the frightened and inquisitive Hobbits, and that leaves the reader’s mind to wander. What on earth could it be? Who set it there to guard the Gate? And why did it attack the Ringbearer first? By keeping some of these monsters/creatures more obscure, Tolkien makes them more fantastical, and thus they carry more of a wallop to the imagination.

Also, it has been suggested throughout the years that Professor Tolkien wrote The Hobbit directly for his children. My guess is that the inclusion of these Stone Giants could have been to add fairy-tale flavor to the proceedings, as you will find throughout The Father Christmas Letters.

–Quickbeam

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Q: You mentioned Glorfindel, what race was he, how awesome was he and what was he to do to help Elrond?

–Tim

A: Well, I think this question (or questions) is best answered with the words of the Professor:

“‘This is Glorfindel, who dwells in the house of Elrond,’ said Strider.

‘Hail, and well met at last!’ said the Elf-lord to Frodo. ‘I was sent from Rivendell to look for you. We feared that you were in danger upon the road.’” [Excerpted from Fellowship.]

So far so good. His race is Elven, and he dwells in the house of Elrond. Moving on:

“‘There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. … It was my lot to take the Road … three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward.’ …

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; …

‘I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?’

‘Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the First-born. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.’” [Ibid.]

As for how “awesome” he was, there you have it. He is a mighty Elf-lord with power to intimidate even Black Riders. Gandalf also says of him:

“Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed…”[Ibid.]

What was he to do to help Elrond? It seems clear that he obeyed Elrond’s orders, since it was Elrond who ordered riders into the wilderness to search for Frodo. It seems likely that whatever Elrond needed him to do, he would undertake.

–Anwyn

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Q: Who is Tom Bombadil anyway? Is he a Valar, Maia, or something else entirely? Does anyone even really know?

–Namuras

Also:

We have had a few major discussions in Barliman’s about this… Who was eldest–Fangorn or Tom Bombadil? Fangorn is said to be “eldest” in one spot, and Bombadil is known as “oldest” and “fatherless”. The folks at Barliman’s would love your insight on this matter!

–Jincey

A: Tom Bombadil is another really tough person to place and define in the whole scheme of Tolkien’s legendarium. This topic also has been debated for many years. About the best answer one can give, and it is still only a speculation, is that Tom Bombadil was some lesser form of Maia. After all, Tom refers to having been around Arda from very early on– “He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless–before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” And the reference to the Dark Lord must to refer to Morgoth, rather than Sauron. Treebeard’s title as “Eldest” must be some sort of honorific, for he and the Ents as a race seem likely to be slightly younger than Tom Bombadil.

–Turgon

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Q: Who was Aragorn I destroyed by?

–JacenS010

A: Aragorn I was a mighty chieftain of the Dúnedain and a direct descendant of Isildur. He was the Great-great-great-great-great-great- great-great-great-grandfather of Aragorn II (a.k.a. Strider, and later crowned King Elessar in The Return of the King). According to Tolkien’s record, Aragorn I was killed not by a whom but by a what:

“Aragorn I, it is said, was slain by wolves, which ever after remained a peril in Eriador, and are not yet ended.”

Please see his notes in Appendix A; “Annals of the Kings and Rulers” at the very end of the trilogy.

–Quickbeam

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Q: Maybe I misread the Fellowship, but in the scene at the Barrow-Down was Frodo actually wearing the princely white outfit like Merry and Pippin? When he was captured, he immediately looked in his pocket for the Ring. Now why would he search in his pockets for the Ring if he was wearing a different outfit? Also, Frodo said to the other Hobbits that their clothes were probably lost forever. So if Frodo was wearing something else, and the missing clothes were gone for good, wouldn’t the ring be in his old Shire pants and not in his new white outfit? Was Frodo in his normal outfit while the others were dressed up?

–CASH219767

A: I won’t try to quote directly from Fellowship on this, as the passages involved are rather lengthy, so I’ll just paraphrase. The short answer is yes, you did misread just a bit. Here’s the sequence of events:

1. Frodo becomes separated from Sam, Merry, and Pippin in the darkness and fog at the end of the day. He hears cries, his friends calling out for him in distress and alarm, but he cannot find his companions in the dark. So Merry, Sam, and Pippin were captured first.
2. Frodo hears a deep voice coming out of the ground, feels a freezing touch, and falls unconscious.
3. Frodo wakes up in the barrow. He is lying on his back and his hands are on his chest, but this seems to be the only thing the Wight has done with him. There is no mention of his clothes being different.
4. Frodo looks around and sees Sam, Merry, and Pippin all laid together, dressed in white with gold jewelry, with weapons laid at their sides, and across their three necks, “one long naked sword.” [Shiver!]
5. It’s obvious at this point that the other three were captured together in a bunch and dressed up like this, and laid there with spells on them. It becomes apparent later that the spells laid on them to keep them unconscious also gave them dreams in which they were forced to re-enact some of the battles that took place in those lands during the rule of Angmar. You remember that Merry speaks of the attack of the men of Carn Dûm, etc., once they wake up. Frodo was captured later, and laid down with lesser spells upon him and his clothes were not touched. The conclusion that he had fewer or even *no* spells laid upon him is evidenced by the fact that he woke up before the other three, had not been touched except to be brought into the Barrow and laid down, and did not have these dreams about battles.
6. He at first thought of putting on the Ring and trying to escape the Barrow, but decided he could not leave his friends. He hacked off the hand of the Barrow Wight, pitch black instantly fell, and he called for Tom Bombadil, who almost immediately appeared, bringing the walls and ceiling of the Barrow crumbling in, dissipating the Wight, and releasing Merry, Sam, and Pippin from the spell. Merry, Pippin and Sam wake up, look in amazement at the clothes and gold they are wearing, and wonder where their clothes are. Tom tells them that clothes are a small loss for people who escape drowning. JRRT goes on to tell us that Sam, Pippin, and Merry were soon too warm, for they had to put on in place of their clothes some of the heavier garments they’d brought with them to prepare for the winter. It says nothing about Frodo needing to change his clothes.

So there you have it, I hope that helps. The only other question that this brings up for me is: Why didn’t the Barrow-Wight take the Ring?

My only guess is that he was too weak a spirit to use it–he was bound in his Barrow and had no influence outside of it. This is clear from the fact that Tom is easily able to dissipate him as soon as the Barrow is demolished. I think he was too bound to the Barrow to be able to make any use of the Ring, but that’s just speculation for fun on my part.

–Anwyn

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Q: In The Two Towers, Aragorn states that Sauron does not allow his name to be spelt or spoken. So why in The Return of the King does Sauron’s Lieutenant clearly state “I am the Mouth of Sauron?”

–Namuras

Also: Aragorn states (Two Towers, p. 18 hardback) that Sauron never uses the name “Sauron”, nor does he “permit it to be spelt or spoken”. Reconcile this text with the text of Return of the King, p. 164 hardback, where the Lieutenant of Barad-Dûr clearly states, “I am the Mouth of Sauron.”

–Chris Nicholson

A: The passage on p. 18 of The Two Towers (hardcover), after Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas have seen some goblin-soldiers with S-runes on their shields, reads as follows:

‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’

‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.’

‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn.

By implication, it appears that Aragorn is referring to the name ‘Sauron’ as his ‘right name’, but that might not necessarily be the case (Who in fact knows what Sauron’s true name was?). But it may be that Aragorn misstated the case, or misunderstood it slightly. Certainly the lowest of the hierarchy of Mordor were not allowed to speak Sauron’s name, but perhaps those higher-ups in fact were. Or it could be, too, that the “Mouth of Sauron” was speaking his master’s name in a way which the gathered hosts would recognize, or he might have used the name even as a show of pride in his own position as the “Mouth of Sauron.”

–Turgon

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Q: This is in response to your answer concerning the names of the Nazgûl. At the siege of Gondor, after the death of the Witch King, Gothmog leads the army of Sauron. He is described as “the lieutenant of Morgul.” I had always assumed he was a Nazgûl. My question, therefore, is: Of what race was Gothmog if he was not a Nazgûl?

–Balin

A: Sharp eyes and quick wits! My first answer was going to be very short: He was a Balrog. There is ample evidence for this, as it is stated in Lord of the Rings encyclopedias and in excerpts from The Silmarillion that he is a Balrog. But, like any good researcher, I checked another source, and in the index to Sil, it states the following: “Gothmog: Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, slayer of Feanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion.” Quite a résumé for one very long-lived Balrog, wouldn’t you say? But, reading on in the same source: “(The same name was borne in the Third Age by the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul; The Return of the King V 6.)” Oops! So while my answer was correct, that the *original* Gothmog was a Balrog, the question now becomes: is the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, who would not seem to be the same spirit, since it makes a point of saying the name was ALSO borne, etc., a Balrog or a Nazgûl? I have to say I’m with you on this one, Balin, that all my reading leads me to believe that Minas Morgul was the Nazzie headquarters, so to speak, and that the Lieutenant would naturally be the second head-honcho Black Rider. So the conclusion is that the name Gothmog applied first to the leader of the Balrogs in the time of the power of Angband, and later to the second-in-command of the Nazgûl, during the War of the Ring.

–Anwyn

Update!

A few eagle-eyed readers have noted a discrepancy between Anwyn’s comment about Gothmog, and my (Turgon’s) comment in an answer from 9/5/99. Technically, Gothmog is described as the “Lieutenant of Morgul,” and this doesn’t tell us whether Gothmog is a Nazgûl, an Orc, or even a Man. Anwyn has interpreted that Gothmog is a Nazgûl. She may be correct, but it is not certain. In any case, a Captain can have more than one Lieutenant, so if Gothmog is a Nazgûl, and Khamul is the second to the Chief, Gothmog could have been the name of another Nazgûl.

- Turgon

Update!

Update! In a question from LONG LONG AGO, in September 1999, I got myself in trouble with the wording of my answer to a question about Gothmog. Because he was called “the Lieutenant of Morgul,” I referred to him as “second in command of the Nazgûl,” and not only got into hot water with lots of readers but into discrepancy with another answer given by Turgon. I wish to set the record straight–I have no clue what his place was within the Nine. I simply mean to say that I believe–and I could be wrong, of course–that Gothmog during the War of the Ring was the Nazgûl who was in charge at the tower of Minas Morgul. Thus he was the “Lieutenant” of that tower–he held it at the pleasure of the boss Nazgûl. I do not mean to imply I believe he is above Khamul in the ranks of the Nine or whatever. Thanks for all those who wrote in, anxious to be sure Khamul got his rightful place! J

- Anwyn

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Q: I was just wondering did they ever explain the origin of hobbits in Middle-earth?

–ThelookATP

A: The records do not seem to say much on this point, other than that the hobbits were more nearly akin to Men than any of the other races of Middle-earth. Though obviously their origins were earlier, they seem to have lived quite unobtrusively in the Vales of the Anduin until early in the Third Age.

–Turgon

Session Start: Sun May 12 07:15:09 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin anyhow?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read about 20 pages…how many appendixes ae in total..cause my book has 6
[Demosthenes] frosaki_the_ringbearer: I think the last is E. But today we’re talking about Appendirx A mostly.
[sunshower] hi Galaril
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i have all the lotr in one book…it’s true…1150 pages..ahhaha
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ok just asking
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Pete-Slagheaps] Appendix B has most of the good stuff, I think
[ChristineGolden] The Numenorean section always reminds me of the “begats” in the Bible.
[Alatariel] Have we started?
[Puma] read ut for numenor
[Demosthenes] Alatariel: kinda yes. We’re defintiely ready to go.
[Pete-Slagheaps] me too, Christine. I don’t think that I’ve read appemdix A moe than twic, sonve 1969
[Demosthenes] Let’s start at the beginning:
[Demosthenes] ‘Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of D?ael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage D?ael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the D?in were accustomed to marry.
[Demosthenes] 1) It’s a rough world for the Dunedain of Arnor obviously.
[Puma] one thing left out….that is in peoples….they lived in a hidden fastness
[Demosthenes] Oh?
[Puma] yes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] my HoF too…so be kind to me finally people to talk to..
[Puma] so they did have armed towns
[Jenniearcheo] Gilraen was such a Debbie Downer.
[Alatariel] Whose Aranarth?
[Puma] well…..then come an instance of ivorwens forsight
[Adann412] my first hof as well but I’ve been in barlimans chat before
[Puma] the 1st chieftain
[Puma] ivorwens forsight was of great import
[Eowyn] My first HoF too
[Nik_Z] same here
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien had a lot of ‘kissing cousins’ marry in both LotR and TS.
[Puma] remember both she and dirhael were of the lone of isildur…just not the senior branch
[Puma] line
[sunshower] wait—how old was Gilraen?
[Puma] 22
[Puma] young for a dunedain woman to marry
[sunshower] hmmm
[Jenniearcheo] Since they normally lived a while
[Demosthenes] I guess that would be young for Dunedain.
[Jenniearcheo] Kinda like the dwarves who didn’t seem to marry and have kids (per family trees) until about 100
[Demosthenes] yeah jennie. like that.
[Puma] dunedain were a bit soooner than dwarves
[ChristineGolden] And Arathorn was a man, full-grown, so probably what we’d call middle-aged.
[Puma] not middle age
[Puma] he was in mid 50′s
[Evenstar25] how long was the average lifespan of the dunedan?
[Demosthenes] 40s or 50s?
[Jenniearcheo] and he was only 60 when he (Arathorn) died
[sunshower] oh, that’s a bit of an age difference then
[Puma] and at that time normal lifespan for chieftains was a bout 160
[Jenniearcheo] When Aragorn was 2
[Evenstar25] okay
[Jenniearcheo] hello
[Pete-Slagheaps] Hi, wanderer
[Demosthenes] Evenstar25: Aragorn lived to 215. That seems to be about the limit of Dunedain life *in Middle-earth*.
[Evenstar25] Okay, I knew he lived a long time I just couldn’t remember
[Demosthenes] So Aragorn was /really/ young when he met Arwen.
[Nik_Z] and also, Aragorn was said to be particularly long-lived for Dunedain at that time
[Demosthenes] still in the short shorts.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] All the Americans are now picturing Daisy Duke
[Pete-Slagheaps] haha, Jennie
[Adann412] wish I could stay but moms makin me stuff envelopes for my sisters wedding, bye everyone
[Demosthenes] Does that explain his … forwardness perhaps?
[Demosthenes] Though, Elrond had just given him a heap of stuff. Ring of Barahir and all that.
[sunshower] young and dumb?
[Phil] evening everyone
[Demosthenes] young and restless?
[Nik_Z] but at the same time, when he told her his lineage he became instantly aware that she was “better” than him
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it was more destiny, like lightning striking.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all excited about the future when he went for his stroll
[Nik_Z] so his pursuit of her was still more fate-driven
[Puma] and his father gave him the name Aragorn, a name used in in the house of the chieftains. But Ivorwen at his naming stood by and said.”Kingly Valor”that he shall have but i see on his breast a green stone and from that his true name shall come and his chief renown: for he shall be a healer and a renewer….and they did not know what she meant, for there was no green stone to be seen by other eyes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: To some extent I certainly see Tolkien replaying the Beren and Luthien story. But deliberately. There is an element of “this is not chance”.
[Puma] that passage is in peoples….but it is in fact true
[Jenniearcheo] and it’s directly referred to
[Jenniearcheo] She’s even wearing the same (or a very similar) dress
[ChristineGolden] Fate plays a big role in Tolkien, and I think the Arwen/Aragorn romance was ‘destiny.’
[Nik_Z] I’d agree
[Puma] when galadriel said to him take now the name forseen at your birth
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i agree
[Demosthenes] ?For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of L?n which tells of the meeting of L?n and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there L?n walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
[ChristineGolden] Especially since Galadriel who had foresight, cleaned him up before he met Arwen in the woods.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, in Lorien
[sunshower] aye, there’s that bound brow concept
[Jenniearcheo] yep
[Demosthenes] Oh you think that was Galadriel spinning webs? I had not thought of that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, anyone could see he was scruffy and travel worn
[Nik_Z] she probably foresaw their destiny
[Evenstar25] well, this has been fun guys, but I must go now, until another time!
[Puma] galadriel knew
[Nik_Z] and perhaps wanted to help a bit, as it were
[Jenniearcheo] And Tolkien specifies that it’s Galadriel who cleaned him up
[Phil] later Evenstar25
[Jenniearcheo] bye Evenstar25
[Demosthenes] After 30 years in the wilderness he probably looked a bit weatherbeaten.
[bld_th] When Arwen introduces to Aragorn she tells “Yet her name -Luthine- is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers” so what did she know about her destiny?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I definitely believe Galadriel encouraged the romance, and not because of personal reasons.
[Puma] well……he had just returned from confines of mordor
[Phil] a bit weatherbeaten i guess that is an understatement Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Strider does mention to Boromir something about “little do i resemble isildur and anarion etc etc”
[Jenniearcheo] good question, bld_th
[Demosthenes] I think he was being sarcastic.
[Demosthenes] bld_th: that is a good question.
[Puma] but aragorn did resemble elendil and elendur
[Nik_Z] yes
[Demosthenes] Or is she just referring to her Peredhil nature?
[Nik_Z] Aragorn is said to gretly resemble Elendil
[Demosthenes] I can see both possibilities.
[Nik_Z] I think she foresaw her foture
[ChristineGolden] But when he appears in his “raiment” before Arwen, he does appear kingly.
[Nik_Z] partially, anyway
[Eowyn] what motivation do you think galadriel had in “match making” then?
[Demosthenes] Does Arwen have foresight?
[Puma] aragorn appears as an elf would
[Phil] i think she does Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel had foresight and was always weaving schemes. She undoubtedly knew the prophecies, too.
[Puma] arwen does have forsight….its demonstrated
[Phil] i think most elves have foresight
[Nik_Z] and some men
[ChristineGolden] Yes, it’s mentioned in the appendix, I believe, Demosthenes.
[Puma] galadriel knew of ivorwens prophesy
[Puma] and galadriel had the mirror
[Demosthenes] I think the great standard she creates for Aragorn is driven by some sort of foresight.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] galadriel pretty much knew everything i think
[Puma] yes
[Puma] and also arwen had forsight as to what frodos fate would be
[Jenniearcheo] that he’d need it?
[bld_th] interesting
[Demosthenes] Yes jennie. It seems to be very imnportant in winning over the Dead.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think any of the elves clearly saw Frodo’s fate, Puma.
[Demosthenes] I don’t think it’s just adornment.
[Jenniearcheo] And announcing the Return . . .
[Puma] arwen did after the war
[ChristineGolden] Glimpses, perhaps, and premonitions, but not like watching a video play out.
[Darkover] Greetings, all, so sorry I’m late!
[Nik_Z] has anyone else ever been a bit puzzled by what Aragorn says before his death (I am the last of the Numenoreans)? personally, I think he says this to emphasise the beginning of a new era
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did have a son. And apparently some daughters
[Puma] Aragorn was the last numenorean.a new line had begun
[Darkover] Nik_Z, I think Aragorn also meant he was the last who could choose his own time of death, too
[Jenniearcheo] But they . . . aren’t the same?
[Nik_Z] aye
[ChristineGolden] The great standard was a major thing in the middle ages and in english mythology.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, I wondered where you were.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or like the Eagle aquila of the Roman legions. It signified their honour. and their lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, got here ASAP
[Jenniearcheo] The Eagle.
[ChristineGolden] No, Aragorn was the last of the Numenoreans because his son was part-elven like his mother.
[Puma] Aragorn had more names than any1 else in lotr
[Nik_Z] the Eagles, and their counterparts in the Napoleonic wars
[Puma] no.eldarion was not part elven
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did seem to have a number of them.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gandalf had quite a few names, as well
[Darkover] Well, technically, Chris, Aragorn was part-Elf too. And part Maia, through Luthien
[ChristineGolden] I’m not so sure about that, Demosthenes, Tolkien never alluded much to the Greeks or Romans.
[Puma] yes he did christine
[Darkover] Elvish blood, Eldarion had, Puma, not that he was of Elvish race
[Nik_Z] but banners do play their but in LotR
[Nik_Z] bit*
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ellhnas?uparxei k allos ellhnas edw?
[Jenniearcheo] The idea of a Standard is an old one, whatever the source.
[ChristineGolden] Not very often, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Ironically, the orcs make as much use of heraldry as men
[Puma] the entrance of the people into minas tirith.was always referred to by him as homeric
[Demosthenes] Sign and signifiers.
[Darkover] Well, standards had their purpose in battle, Jennie, regardless of what side or species an army was
[Puma] well….there are many many banners in jrr
[Jenniearcheo] Even Martin’s use of “bannermen” is a reflection of the idea.
[ChristineGolden] The standard was the sign of the king and his authority. When Aragorn unfurled it, he was claiming his crown.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Darkover] Right, Chris. More like “The King has returned” than “Lord Aragorn”
[Demosthenes] And that plays into his rodering the banner furled at Minas Tirith after the pelennor.
[ChristineGolden] When he rode with it to the gates of Mordor, he was announcing, “The King has returned.”
[Demosthenes] ordering*
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] tolkien had takenpart of greek and romian myhology ..moria for exaple is a village in island of lesvos…the collums of kazard dum are takem by dsign form there
[Puma] the columns were shaped as trees
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] no kazard dm sorry the great hall we see in the movie
[Jenniearcheo] I can see a parallel between the dwarves and classical architecture.
[Nik_Z] I always felt that the Silmarillion was a quite roman/greek feeling to it
[Puma] movie counts not
[Nik_Z] the great clashes of gods and men
[Demosthenes] So, to what extent does Aragorn’s …. drive … derive from all the things he’s forced to do in order “win” Arwen (or win over Elrond)?
[Puma] Elrond was on aragorns side
[Darkover] most of it, always seemed ot me, Demosthenes
[Puma] elrond was no thingol
[ChristineGolden] Well, according to Tolkien, most of his inspiration came from the middle ages and nordic myth.
[sunshower] I say less than most
[bld_th] the movie has a lot of infuence from Rome, specially Gondorian design
[Darkover] He wasn’t marrying the woman of his dreams unless he became king–and of the reunited Kingdom, no less
[Demosthenes] Was he? He seems a bit conflicted … though way less of an idiot than thingol.
[Puma] Arwen was above aragorn
[Nik_Z] Christine – true, but the great armies are more of a antiquity thing
[Darkover] Well, if we’re making Greek allusions, Thingol had hubris
[Nik_Z] since the middle ages saw a decline
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Aragorn had a destiny to fulfill and that his love of Arwen “was his light when all other lights had failed.”
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and in a way that “saves” the quest of the Ring too.
[Puma] little in middle earth resembles the middle ages
[Darkover] in terms of lineage, maybe, Puma, but it seems to me that Aragorn earned his position–eventually–whereas everything Arwen had was an accident of birth
[Demosthenes] Would Aragorn have been in Bree otherwise?
[Pete-Slagheaps] and Melian was above Thingol–higher than Arwen was above Aragorn
[Puma] there was no feudalism
[Demosthenes] It’s a weird thought.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Nik. You forget the War of the Roses, for example.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, Turgon was like, “My daughter? Suuure!”
[Demosthenes] turgon is an odd exception
[Puma] no quite jennie.turon knew of ulmos prophesy
[Jenniearcheo] But blew it off
[Demosthenes] And still ignored it. well done turgon.
[Puma] not completely
[ChristineGolden] There are many symbols, etc., to the Middle Ages, Puma.
[Darkover] Maybe Aragorn wouldn’t otherwise have been in Bree, Demosthenes, but one of the things I love about LotR is Tolkien’s insistence that everything happens for a purpose.
[Darkover] It is how he explained coincidence.
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris
[Puma] for aragorn to expect people to be rules by him….did he not have 1st to learn to be ruled
[Puma] Elrond was a father to aragorn
[Puma] elladan and elrohir bothers
[Nik_Z] Christine – the War of the Roses was more of an exception, the middle ages mostly saw small-scale warfare
[Demosthenes] Darkover: There’s all these odd little threads. Though … you can find signs of stuff everywhere when you start applying hindsight.
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes
[Nik_Z] armies of several thousand men, 10k at the most
[ChristineGolden] I’d think he would have learned that lesson quite well from Elrond, Puma. I don’t see Elrond taking much sass from a young boy.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] Or indeed anyone else, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sass
[bld_th] Yes, there´s a nice quote about destiny, can{t remember if it is told by gandalf or Tom bombadil
[Puma] but that is why aragorn honored elronds wish
[Darkover] Well, let’s face it, Puma, Aragorn didn’t have much choice in honoring Elrond’s wishes when it came to marrying Arwen. It was more like, this is the deal, take it or leave it.
[ChristineGolden] Those were large armies for the time, Nik. After all, Europe was still recovering from the Black Death.
[Goldberry] If Arwen had chosen to leave ME would Frodo have had to stay?
[bld_th] Oh yes: “Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine” its Tom Bombadil
[Puma] no.both arwen and aragorn did have a choice
[ChristineGolden] Do you think Arwen would have married Aragorn if Elrond had forbidden it?
[bld_th] I think yes Goldberry
[Puma] no.arwen did not give frodo her seat
[Darkover] No, I doubt that very much, Goldberry. Arwen offered Frodo her seat on the ships, so to speak, because she *knew* there would be at least one vacancy, but I don’t think one thing had anything to do with the other.
[Jenniearcheo] Would the war have been won if she’d refused him and gone West?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] she gave her place didn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a hobson’s choice?
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes.
[Nik_Z] my point exactly, antiquity saw warfare at a grander scale (take the Roman empire for example, or perhaps the battle of Platea), whereas the middle ages saw warfare as a smaller occurence, composed more of raids than battles
[Puma] no she did not give her place
[Demosthenes] You may take any horse in the barn, as long as it’s the one in the first stall.
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would still have had the West win the war, but then Gondor wouldn’t have risen to its full glory afterwards without Arwen.
[Darkover] Jennie, I think it would have depended on how early Arwen refused him, if indeed she had. Certainly it would have altered circumstances, but not if she changed her mind at the time of the war
[Darkover] If she’d done the latter, Gondor would have had a different Queen, I suspect, but that is all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Again this is somewhat reflective of Tolkien’s own courtship of Edith Bratt.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] Something we observed with Beren and Luthien.
[Nik_Z] Demosthenes: yes, quite so
[Darkover] Whereas if Arwen had refused early on to ever be engaged to Aragorn, things would have changed dramatically, and Aragorn and his circumstances would have been very different
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes, although the father-figure in Tolkien’s case who put forth the restrictions was his own, the priest who raised him.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s worth pondering … to what extent is this a “re-run” of Beren and Luthien?
[Puma] in a large part it is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t about the rest of you, but I didn’t really know about Arwen when I first read LotR. So, yes, I think events would have played out the same.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly there are parallels. But it’s referred to quite directly
[Demosthenes] And how that figues with Arwen being the “Evenstar”
[sunshower] a “reboot” with a better outcome?
[Jenniearcheo] In simile rather than just metaphor
[Puma] even reflected by araogrn singing some of beren and luthien to the hobbits
[Darkover] There are some similarities–Arwen’s choice is similar to Luthien’s–but Arwen had a much more understanding father
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was an internal motivation for Aragorn, not a driver of events.
[Darkover] who also raised Aragorn, unlike Thingol and Beren’s relationship
[Demosthenes] sunshower: oooh, do they get a happy ending?
[sunshower] I say they did
[Nik_Z] and Elrond was less haughty than Thingol
[ChristineGolden] Very little to me, Demosthenes. Arwen really plays a very small role in the war.
[Darkover] Oooh, very well put, Chris!
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read somewhere that at first tolkien thought aragorn marring ewoyn but he changed it later..why u thing?
[Puma] the evenstar refers to arwen being the last of the houses of finwe and elwe born in middle earth
[Darkover] And of course, there was the precedent of Luthien and Beren, by the time Arwen and Aragorn came along.
[ChristineGolden] Whereas Luthien was totally involved and committed to helping Beren achieve his quest.
[sunshower] isn’t there something in the Tale about A&A meeting again?
[sunshower] after they pass from M-e?
[Jenniearcheo] Which actually makes it even more dramatic. Elrond knew what would happen to Arwen because of Luthien
[Nik_Z] Tolkien married Aragorn to Arwen to signal the renewal of Gondor and Arnor
[Puma] only in 1 slight way
[Darkover] Frosaki, I heard the same, but from what I heard, when Tolkien created the character of Eowyn, he hadn’t yet created the character of Faramir, and for several different reasons, he changed things.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, they were both beautiful elven maids who looked very much alike. One was the morning star; the other, its evenstar. But as to their actual roles in the fight against evil, there is no comparison.
[Darkover] Right, Sunshower, Aragorn promises that he will see Arwen in the next world, because Arwen has chosen the “gift of Men,” which means she will be with Aragorn and his people, not with the Elves.
[Puma] arwen was aragorns inspiration.also she watched over him in thought
[Darkover] Right again, Chris. Luthien was much more proactive in fighting evil.
[ChristineGolden] Watching is a lot different than defying the gates of Angband, Puma.
[Puma] Aragorn used the word “behold!” which in jrr something that is true
[Nik_Z] Arwen was more to Aragorn what Edith was to JRR
[sunshower] pretty long life, raised the kids….see you on the other side! not a bad outcome, imo
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t Elwing have that same choice? And the same wistfulness?
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was a crucial part of that tale; Arwen was a note in the appendices.
[Demosthenes] Is Arwen a psychological bolster for Aragorn? I’m thinking of her “hope comes or hope fades…” line particularly.
[Darkover] Puma, what you say is true, but being “inspiration” is hardly the same as completing a quest against the dark lord
[Nik_Z] something to come home to, something worth fighting for
[Puma] i was not comparing arwen to luthien
[ChristineGolden] the little woman sitting home doing embroidery by the fire, Nik?
[Darkover] I’d say definitely, Demosthenes. I’m sure it was the thought of earning Arwen at first, and then the thought of her waiting for him, that helped Aragorn go on at times.
[Demosthenes] this too:
[Demosthenes] ‘And Arwen said: “Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it.”
[Nik_Z] in a sense, yes
[Nik_Z] but mostly a beacon of hope in dark times
[Darkover] Maybe that was an example of the foresight of her family line, Demosthenes
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[ChristineGolden] Yeah, that’s how she always struck me, too. Arwen is really the least heroic of the elven maids we’ve discussed.
[Nik_Z] definitely
[Puma] we know little of arwens story
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps because she was a bit of an afterthought?
[Puma] though you are correct
[Nik_Z] she watches things happen for her, but she herself does not make them happen
[ChristineGolden] While Middle Earth is on the edge of doom, she is safely in Rivendell, embroidering a banner for Aragorn.
[Darkover] Sunshower, Arwen’s deal seems pretty good to me, too, but that is because you and I are going to get old–if we live long enough–and die anyway. Arwen had to *choose* to give up youth, eternal beauty, and immortality for death and an uncertain future.
[Goldberry] Elrond probably didn’t let her do anything dangerous
[Darkover] Thingol didn’t want to “let” Luthien do things, either, Goldberry, but she did
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: Dunno about that. We see that travelling to and from Lorien is in itself dangerous.
[Goldberry] true
[ChristineGolden] But she never had to ACT, Darkover, against evil – be it Morgoth or Sauron – whereas Luthien, Idril, and Elwing put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] Not that I am critical of Arwen. She wasn’t a warrior, not practical to expect her to be.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh yeah. Poor Mrs. Elrond
[ChristineGolden] I’m sure she was heavily guarded, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there are some similarities to Melian, i think.
[bld_th] But Arwen exeplify the difficult of the choice between mortality and unmortality, may be the others had the same difficult, buy their stories are told from a more epic way
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I would agree with that, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I agree, Chris. She was much more passive than earlier elf-women. But my point to Sunshower was that, when examined in context, Arwen’s choice becomes more difficult.
[ChristineGolden] All of the characters faced difficult choices, though, Darkover; Frodo, the most difficult of all. I don’t see what makes hers so special, at least more so than Luthien’s.
[bld_th] Im agree Draover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that Arwen makes the greater sacrifice? while Aragorn gains a world?
[Darkover] And of course, Arwen gave up her Elvish family, too
[Nik_Z] exactly, Darkover: when Luthien makes her choice, it is in a time of war and dwindling hope, so she wants to enjoy, whereas Arwen finally chooses after the victory, therefore putting more on the line
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[sunshower] the bitter parting of Arwen and Elrond
[Jenniearcheo] Arwen has the loss of Luthien to consider. the effect it had on everyone.
[Darkover] That is a valid argument, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] The easier choice for Luthien would have been to sail off for Valinor, not storm the gates of Angband.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: maybe that is her battle? the one with self.
[Nik_Z] but then again, it was a ray of hope
[sunshower] mortal love–relatively short-term OR immortalilty?
[Jenniearcheo] An immortality filled with regret?
[Darkover] Chris, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Arwen. She was like Luthien only when it came to beauty and the choice she had to make, yes. And as you correctly observe, lots of people had to make potentially-lousy choices. But suffering isn’t a contest, and Arwen’s choice was nevertheless a difficult one. That is all I mean.
[Demosthenes] Would Valinor not … temper/heal … any regret?
[sunshower] I think I am more OK with the whole thing mostly because of the promise of their meeting again in the “afterlife”
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[sunshower] going along that line of thinking–their love is immortal
[sunshower] ymmv
[Darkover] Hmm, I hadn’t considered that, Demosthenes. Maybe, as Elrond suggested in the PJ movies, Arwen would have been happy with just a memory of her love, had she gone to Valinor. Maybe not, too.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] wel all i can say is things are more complicated once u read the books…so much to thig
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] +think
[Darkover] Maybe it is one of those things a person wouldnt’ know until after they made the choice.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that is why Frodo goes to Tol Eressea.
[Demosthenes] On the other hand, Valinor doesn’t help Miriel much.
[Demosthenes] she has to go to Mandos.
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[Darkover] True. The broad implication was that it would help heal, or at least soothe, his body and spirit.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] whatever choice u made u can always have second thoughts
[Darkover] lol, Chris. But to be fair, Arwen didn’t do that, at least.
[Demosthenes] Do you think that after Aragorn dies that Arwen suddenly … i guess … fades?
[Jenniearcheo] She seems to.
[Darkover] frosaki, that’s one reason why Tolkien fans usually read LotR more than once. There is indeed a lot to be gleaned.
[Demosthenes] ‘But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
[Jenniearcheo] Goes a little Gilraen-y
[ChristineGolden] I know, I was just trying to come up with an example, Darkover, and that one popped into my head. Not quite what I meant, but you get the idea.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the son and daughters aren’t enough to bring her joy
[bld_th] i think she dies too, thats the menaning for me of being forgotten
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Arwen might have faded Elf-fashion, and then died, but I got the impression she was doing the Elf equivalent of what Aragorn did
[ChristineGolden] Yes, like that quote about “I have hope to the Dunedain. I kept none for myself,” Jen.
[Puma] arwen died
[Darkover] said goodbye to all the people and things she’d known and loved, and then lay down to die.
[Puma] she chose to die
[Jenniearcheo] And apparently a bare skeleton?
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe that’s the way it was ‘supposed to happen.’ Luthien didn’t live long after Beren, either.
[Jenniearcheo] Without even the little flowers
[Jenniearcheo] And the mallorn leaves actually falling
[Puma] and where arwen chose to die is symbolic
[Demosthenes] In a way Aragorn truly seems to have been Arwen’s hope.
[Darkover] Jennie, her no longer wishing to stay on after Aragorn died might in part have been because she’d been born an Elf, and lived as one for so long
[Jenniearcheo] As an archeologist, I know that an exposed corpse is not the best way to keep a skeleton articulated, is all.
[Puma] arwen could have chosen to die when aragorn did
[Lendaris] Hi there
[ChristineGolden] Maybe when the man died, his elven wife died soon after. Doom of Mandos, perhaps?
[Darkover] I mean, don’t Elves in Tolkien’s world become spiritually attached to their spouses? It isn’t like a mortal widow just living on, and maybe marrying someone else.
[Demosthenes] We don’t know in what order Luthien and Beren died. But they must have been spaced closely i think?
[Darkover] I think it was more an elvish characteristic, Chris, as I indicated in my recent remarks to Jennie
[Demosthenes] As the Nauglamir was brought pretty much directly to Dior with the news.
[Darkover] Very closely spaced, I suspect, Demosthenes
[Puma] when arwen and luthien married they were no longer eldar
[Darkover] I don’t think that was something that changed completely just overnight, Puma
[Puma] but it was
[Demosthenes] Aragron seems to think she could still take a boat
[Puma] in luthiens case by decree of mandos
[Darkover] Arwen and Aragorn, Lendaris
[Demosthenes] ‘ “I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
[Darkover] Right. But then, she would also never see him again.
[Demosthenes] or is he telling fibs?
[Puma] arwen no longer had a right to go
[Darkover] And doesn’t she tell him that choice was made long ago, there’s no going back now?
[Demosthenes] Yet Aragorn thinks she could?
[Demosthenes] He’s wrong then?
[sunshower] “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Besides, as I think Arwen mentions, aren’t the last of the ships gone?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always wondered about that passage since the last ship had already sailed.
[sunshower] that’s the line that does it for me, I think
[Demosthenes] Maybe she could build a raft out of mallorns
[Puma] no.the last ships are not gone
[Darkover] I think he might have been mistaken, Demosthenes. I can’t imagine him lying to Arwen about something like that.
[sunshower]
[Jenniearcheo] Or Entwives
[Demosthenes] or entwives
[Puma] cirdan would be on the very last ship
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Demosthenes] It’s an odd one.
[Darkover] Well, he might have been on the last one, Puma, and it might have already sailed. As I recall, Arwen tells a dying Aragorn that there no longer is any ship that would bear her hence.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Legolas go?
[Demetria] Isn’t the last ship the one with Legolas & Gimli?
[ChristineGolden] Weren’t the appendices an add-on? So, it’s possible Tolkien wasn’t his usual OCD self about details?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] yes i thnk
[FloraWright] no he built one
[Puma] yes Darkover.because she had no right to sail…..not because the last ship had sailed
[Darkover] Maybe Legolas, Gimli, and Cirdan were all on the same one. I really don’t think this is as complicated as some of you are trying to make out.
[Puma] no.cirdan was not on ship with legolas and gimli
[Demetria] Cirdan was on the one with Gandolf and the ring bearers
[Darkover] Maybe that is what she meant, Puma. And maybe she meant that as far as she knew, there were no more ships. It could be interpreted either way.
[Demosthenes] But I say to you, King of the N?reans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”
[Demosthenes] That seems a long time to learn the lesson of mortality.
[Puma] no it could not be interprested either way
[ChristineGolden] “There is now no ship that will bear me hence (to Valinor).
[FloraWright] you have a piont
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, rationally, all human beings know we’re going to die, but how many of us actually understand and accept it, until it happens?
[ChristineGolden] That’s pretty clear.
[Darkover] And Arwen had been an immortal Elf for much of her life.
[sunshower] Elfkind were removed from that thought
[Puma] Arwen had made the choice of the half elven….the same as elros did
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] how old was she??Arwen
[sunshower] old
[Puma] and neither could go west
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “i’m going to live forever. so far so good”?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] older than aragorn?
[Puma] arwen was born 241 3rd age
[FloraWright] but she die’s in the end and she was like 2050
[Demosthenes] I guess we all do that.
[Jenniearcheo] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien the year Elessar died, and he and Gimli went down Anduin and over the sea
[Darkover] Something like that, Demosthenes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ooh nice…so aragorn liked older women..
[FloraWright] haha yea
[FloraWright] he was 87
[bld_th] like Edith to Tolkien
[Puma] arwen was 2901 yrs old when aragorn died
[bld_th] Edith was older
[Puma] and she died 1 yr later
[FloraWright] yea he live 100 years then gimli and legolas left and arwen died
[Darkover] I wonder if Arwen was the last Elf in M-E when she died.
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] Well, what a cheery turn we’ve taken
[Demosthenes] I think there would have been some Silvan elves still
[Puma] and arwen had never been an elf.ever
[Demosthenes] Some of the Moriquendi
[Demosthenes] Thranduil’s folk?
[Darkover] LoL, Jennie, but let’s face it, death is a big part of the Arwen-Aragorn tale
[Jenniearcheo] Dunno. Tale of Years ends with that entry
[Demosthenes] They didn’t seem much interested in boats.
[sunshower] Thranduil himself?
[Jenniearcheo] True
[ChristineGolden] No, Tolkien said that elves still lived in Middle Earth, but diminished.
[Puma] death is a big part of all jrr’s writtings
[ChristineGolden] Death and redemption
[Darkover] Probably a few elves here and there, then, some who just didn’t want to leave M-E for any reason.
[Puma] but its important to know arwen,,,,was not an elf
[FloraWright] she was
[Demosthenes] They wanted to have their own small realms? Away from Valinor?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] too attached maybe to leave
[Puma] no she was not
[sunshower] I wonder if JRRT considered any of his contemporaries to be the faded elves?
[Elrenia] Arwen wasn’t an elf?!
[Darkover] Arwen wasn’t a full-blooded Elf, Puma, but I would have called her an Elf.
[Demosthenes] If they were Moriquendi they might not know the way.
[Elrenia] :s
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Puma] arwen was half elven
[Demetria] Arwen was 3/4 elf
[Darkover] If it walks like an Elf, has undying beauty and virtual immortality like an elf…
[Puma] she had a different destiny than elves
[Demosthenes] Also, you have weird exceptions like Maglor.
[Jenniearcheo] Plus, they would have been to drunk on Dorwinion wine to make the effort.
[Puma] peredhil have a choice
[Darkover] Fine, her destiny was different, but that wouldn’t make her less of an Elf
[Demosthenes] presumably still out there somewhere. Singing his little heart out.
[ChristineGolden] But her blood and heritage was elven, Puma. Just because I marry someone from China doesn’t make me Asian.
[Darkover] As far as I know, Demosthenes, Maglor is still out there.
[Puma] arwen was half elven with life of the eldar….which she chose to give up..
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Darkover] Which makes her an Elf, or close enough, Puma
[Puma] Christine.you are missing the point of what half elven means
[ChristineGolden] She chose to give up her immortality and right to go to Valinor, Puma. That did not change her “DNA.”
[Puma] elves had a destiny with death.as did humankind….the peredhil could choose to which kindred their fates would be
[Jenniearcheo] Hang on. If the valar could Ping make Earendil not mortal . . . that changed him, didn’t it?
[Darkover] We get that. Which makes them a different kind of Elf, Puma, not a separate species.
[Jenniearcheo] Or am I getting my guys confused?
[FloraWright] in the book she was a elf in the movie’s she was an elf there is no changing that
[Puma] Christine.go back to sil and see what mandos said to earendil and elwing
[Demetria] she was still immortal and bound to Middle Earth until all the elves and all their works were nothing more than memory
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, they made Tuor “numbered among the elder race.”
[Darkover] Earendil and Elwing had a choice, too, Jennie. Elwing chose to belong to the Eldar, and her husband went along with her.
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover and Demetria.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant Tuor
[Puma] elros chose to be judged among humans
[Puma] elrond with the eldar
[Demetria] exactly and her choice was the same as her father’s and uncle’s
[Puma] but the choice of the children of elrond were bound to his…..when elrond left.they had to make a choice
[Demosthenes] I think that’s the point where you kinda just have to roll with the story. In the same way that there’s really no magic/art but we accept that too.
[Puma] no.just her uncles
[Demosthenes] Otherwise you’ll go bonkers.
[sunshower] [--brain explodes
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Darkover] Right. and from that day forward, Elros was a Man, regardless of who he married. Arwen was an Elf. If you want to argue that she became of the race of Men when she married Aragorn, that’s plausible, but until then, she was an Elf.
[Jenniearcheo] [--- shakes brains off
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my too much information….
[Puma] she was not an elf
[ChristineGolden] They chose to be judged, judgment which only comes after death.
[Demetria] no, she always was an elf
[Darkover] Although the implication, judging by their conversation on Aragorn’s deathbed, was that she could have chosen Valinor even then.
[Puma] she had the same lifespan as an elf at that time
[Puma] arwen was never an elf
[FloraWright] elrond had to make a choice he picked elf then his sons had to choose they picked elf and arwen picked elf untill she met aragorn the she gave up on elf so to speak
[Puma] elrond was never an elf
[Demetria] yes, and with her choice, she was still an elf, though bound to Middle Earth
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, but did she have wings, or just winglike shadows?
[Darkover] Again, as I said before, if someone has the youth, immortality, beauty, etc. of an Elf, then that makes them an Elf. But beleive what you want, Puma. Clearly we are never going to agree.
[Puma] the choice of elladan and elrohir is unknown
[Darkover] Right, as FloraWright said
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was technically 3/4 elf, Puma, with a dash of Maiar.
[Demosthenes] If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck?
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] Jennie
[ChristineGolden] lol, pretty much.
[Demosthenes] I get that
[Puma] half elven does not mean blood…its a state of being
[Puma] and what it means.relates to the 2 different destinies of elves and men
[ChristineGolden] Of course it’s about blood, Puma. If you didn’t have elven blood, you didn’t get that choice. Aragorn was never asked if he preferred to be an elf.
[Darkover] Right
[Puma] idril.upon marrying tuor.did not become human.she was an elf
[FloraWright] im part native american and i have dark skin and dark hair if i marry a white man that doesn’t make me white
[Demetria] no, he was bound to the choice of Elros
[ChristineGolden] Very good, Flora! I was going to make a similar comparison, but thought it may not be quite “PC.”
[Puma] its an improtant point jrr was trying to make.sorry if some of you dont see it
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2when u marry a mortal u do not stop being an elf..it is imposible
[ChristineGolden] Arwen and Aragorn, very loosely, Anameleth.
[Darkover] That’s right, Puma, Idril didn’t change. She didn’t have the luxury of choice. But thanks to the Valar, Tuor did change. But up until the point he became Immortal and Elvish, he was a Man. Up until the point she chose mortality, Arwen was a blasted Elf. We are never going to agree, so can we move on?
[Anameleth] Ahh..
[Puma] she was never an elf
[Anameleth] Are we using the book or movies?
[Jenniearcheo] I think they dinged Tuor not because he married Idril but because he was going to retire to Valinor or sommat, right?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2Darkover take the lead…
[sunshower] book
[ChristineGolden] book
[Demosthenes] Okay, maybe we ought to move on.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my
[FloraWright] yes but elrond is a elf he said it him self he’s like 4000 years old
[ChristineGolden] specifically, appendix 5.
[Darkover] Sorry, Demosthenes, if I got a bit heated. But it seems to me we are chasing our tails, here.
[Anameleth] Okay. And puma, she was never an elf?!
[Puma] jrr wrote of this
[Demosthenes] No, i think we’ve exhausted that particular avenue.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could talk about the wedding. That’s usually a cheerful topic.
[Darkover] Sounds good! Especially as Aragorn wasn’t 100% sure Arwen was going to marry him, after all.
[ChristineGolden] And it is only one of two times Arwen is actually in the book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2we will never agree people so why we still talk about this..
[Anameleth] I was surprised at how little arwen was mentioned in the books
[Puma] she was referred to many times
[sunshower] her first time to speak was in Many Partings?
[Puma] but in subtle ways
[Darkover] In that, I think PJ did a better job. We didn’t find ourselves in the last movie saying, “who’s she?”
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2she only talks as queen isn’t she?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: And that was about Frodo specifically. But then it’s a hobbitcentric book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2in the end
[Anameleth] darkover, I totally agree
[sunshower] yep
[ChristineGolden] I hated her inclusion in the movies, Darkover.
[sunshower] We initially encountered Arwen in Many Meetings, got a few second hand peeks at her in a couple of the many chapters since, maybe a glimpse of her in the previous chapter, and now she’s back in Many Partings. Only now does Tolkien allow us to *hear* Arwen speaking.
[sunshower] Why now?
[Puma] arwen was important in the book
[Puma] but its subtle
[Demetria] agreed Puma
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2to that agree
[Darkover] Well, be honest, Chris, you mostly hated all the movies, didn’t you? so Arwen wouldn’t have been an exception
[Anameleth] She was important but hardly mentioned until the end of ROTK
[bld_th] thats why this appendix is important
[Demosthenes] If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!?
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn would have fulfilled his destiny, with or without Arwen, and become king of Gondor. After all, that’s one of the main purposes of the book.
[Darkover] We don’t really find out how important, or specifically in what ways, until the appendices
[Demosthenes] And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo?s neck. ?When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,? she said, ?this will bring you aid.?
[Demosthenes] A placebo? A “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] Does it work?
[Demosthenes] kind of
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I fell in love with FotR. I disliked the inclusion of all the Arwen scenes because it meant ones I loved in the book had to be cut. According to PJ, that is.
[sunshower] not entirely
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but there is no denying that Arwen gave him incentive. And certainly, Gondor would have had a different queen
[Puma] the main purpose of lotr…is as the sequal to the sil….to finish that story
[Demosthenes] It’s not morphine
[Darkover] I see, Chris
[Pete-Slagheaps] He used it after he got back home, “It’s all dark, Sam”–one of those monemts
[sunshower] Frodo carried the Ring on a chain for much (all?) of his journey.
[sunshower] Any thoughts on what his thoughts may have been as Arwen places a silver chain with a white gem around his neck?
[Jenniearcheo] But it didn’t ward off the dark
[Demosthenes] Which is why Frodo eventually takes the boat. I suspect Arwen knew that would happen.
[Puma] it sure helped
[Pete-Slagheaps] nope
[ChristineGolden] Are you saying that Aragorn had no other incentive to reclaim his throne other than Arwen, Darkover?
[Darkover] maybe similar to what Galadriel gave him?
[Puma] that the gem helped frodo is right there in the book.he would clutch it
[FloraWright] the same effect
[Darkover] Of course he had incentive, Chris. But maybe the incentive of love kept him from becoming embittered and/or arrogant along the way, as a simple attitude of “it’s my birthright, I deserve it” might have done.
[Darkover] Just speculation.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2maybe…
[Demosthenes] It helped somewhat i think puma. if it had been wholly effective, frodo would have stayed in the shire.
[Pete-Slagheaps] my “nope” wasn;t to you, puma, it was to Jennie. Even if it did help some, he still spoke of the fact that the ring was gone forever.
[Demosthenes] In a way it’s a similar thing to the Elessar (which came to Aragorn through Arwen) and to the Three.
[FloraWright] he really didnt half to leave
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Darkover, Aragorn was raised to defeat Sauron and reclaim his throne. I think it ran a lot deeper than ‘for love of a maid.’
[Pete-Slagheaps] (On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. ‘It is gone for ever,’ he said, ‘and now all is dark and empty.’)
[Demosthenes] All of those are focused on healing/preserving the hurts of the world. And Frodo is hurt by malice/sting/sword/etc.
[Darkover] But Aragorn might have remained a chieftain, like his predecessors, instead of becoming the King returned, without the additional incentive of, if you want to marry the woman you love, become king
[Darkover] again, we can’t know for sure, Chris. Just my thoughts
[Demetria] yes that choice was Aragorn’s
[Darkover] That seems to be a characteristic of all Elvish jewels, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was one of the thoughts i had in writing the blurb, that one simple meeting ion the woods drives him to become greater than he might have otherwise been.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2as i see it ..everyonr in this books had a choice..
[Darkover] I think you are right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I know, and I hate speculating about fiction since what’s in the book is all that happened, Darkover. I just think that Aragorn had a ‘bigger set’ and a destiny to fulfill, Arwen or no Arwen.
[Demetria] yes they did
[ChristineGolden] Whoa, that got by Barliman. I’ll have to remember that. ;p
[Darkover] I agree, Chris, but the way he fulfilled it might have taken on a very different form without Arwen. Again, we will never know. that’s why people write AU fanfiction.
[Demosthenes] Teasing out the percentage effect of Arwen is kinda impossible. But it’s certainly not nil.
[ChristineGolden] What is the name of G.. is AU fanfiction?
[sunshower] always unwanted?
[Demosthenes] Similarly, would Beren have done the same sort of things without Luthien?
[Jenniearcheo] lol sunny
[Pete-Slagheaps] Don’t ask, ChrostineGolden, you will get ill
[Darkover] “AU” means “Alternate Universe,” Chris. For example, if a fan wrote a story in which Arwen sailed to Valinor and Eowyn became Queen instead, that would be AU LotR fan fiction.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Christine, not Chrostine
[ChristineGolden] That’s good enough for me, Pete, thanks.
[Anameleth] I believe Aragorn had a, almost duty to fulfill, so to speak. To regain the throne. Amidst all of the chaos that he was going through, i believe that arwen was always a thought in his mind, but not his main goal.
[Demetria] no, Beren did it for the love of Luthien
[Darkover] Hey, Pete, there is some very good fan fiction out there. It just isn’t for everyone.
[Jenniearcheo] He was just, correctly, guessing her reaction to the Alternative Universe idea
[Pete-Slagheaps] It’s defintely *not* for Christine, Darkover, that was my point.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2arwen was his beacon of hope
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think it’s very disrespectful, Darkover, but that’s another discussion.
[Demosthenes] Yet “fate” drove him. fate drives Aragorn too. It’s a messy, inexact concept.
[Darkover] lol, I’m inclined to agree, Pete
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2everyone needs one
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Anameleth: Aragorn would have reclaimed the throne of Gondor, with or without his love for Arwen. Totally different than the other elf-man pairs. And why are the elves always women?
[Jenniearcheo] “Mind yer fate!” “My fate?” “Yeah! Them thaings on the ends of yer laigs!”
[Darkover] but providence is not, Demosthenes.
[Pete-Slagheaps] rofl, Jennie
[Demosthenes] haha
[Darkover] Maybe because women are more inclined to give up things for men, Chris, than the other way around.
[Darkover] That was weirdly funny, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Beren gives up a hand?
[sunshower] Jennie! LOL
[Jenniearcheo] It’s Eddings
[Pete-Slagheaps] and his bachelorhood
[ChristineGolden] It’s always a human man and an elven woman – that had to be deliberate.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but not for Luthien’s sake, but because he was foolish enough to think that would make the wolf get out of his way.
[Jenniearcheo] well, not on purpose, Dems
[sunshower] hi Vince
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gues and elven man won’t lower his standards, an elven woman would.
[Jenniearcheo] He thought it would work like Galadriel’s phial or something
[Demosthenes] True! Are there any last points that we’ve missed?
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] No, I think we’ve covered everything Arwen and Aragorn-related
[Demosthenes] I think we may have run through everything on the topic.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2elen men are heartless snobs
[ChristineGolden] Not that I can think off, Demosthenes.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2*elven
[Pete-Slagheaps] Dunno, Demz–I haven’t been here today, ment’ly
[Darkover] So, shall we talk with each other next time?
[Demosthenes] Well, I think we’ll call that a wrap. Thanks everyone. Next weekend we’ll be off to the golden hall. I think that’s right?
Session Close: Sun May 12 09:49:48 2013

Q: Greetings masters of lore. My question deals with the Nazgul. I know of Khamul, but I have not found the names of the other Nazgul. If they had names, what were they as well as who were they prior to their transformation? Furthermore, is there any story about their creation and why Sauron decided to choose them specifically?

-Reginold

A: Khamul seems to be the only named Ringwraith. What we know of him is given in the section “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales (1980). He was second to the Chief, and his name is given as Khamul the Shadow of the East. Some more about the Nazgul, or the Ulairi, can be found in some of the volumes of the History of Middle-earth, particularly in the section “The Story of Frodo and Sam in Mordor” in Sauron Defeated (1992), and in the work on the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings as printed in The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996). But, unfortunately, the histories of the men who became the Nazgul seems nowhere to be specifically illuminated.

-Turgon

Update!

Okay, we’ve had a number of people writing in and saying that all of the Nazgul are named in one of the Middle-earth games. Yup, we know about that. But the truth is that those names were made up by the people who created the game, not by Tolkien, so we don’t view them as authoritative. They’re simply not in Tolkien anywhere!

- Turgon

Update!

A few eagle-eyed readers have noted a discrepancy between my comment above and Anwyn’s comment an answer from 9/12/99. Technically, Gothmog is described as the “Lieutenant of Morgul,” and this doesn’t tell us whether Gothmog is a Nazgûl, an Orc, or even a Man. Anwyn has interpreted that Gothmog is a Nazgûl. She may be correct, but it is not certain. In any case, a Captain can have more than one Lieutenant, so if Gothmog is a Nazgûl, and Khamul is the second to the Chief, Gothmog could have been the name of another Nazgûl.

- Turgon

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Q: In The Hobbit, at the start of the quest, the dwarves believed that Gandalf was going along with them to Mount Doom [sic], 13 dwarves + 1 Gandalf = 14 in the Party; why were they worried about another member….. and if so surely they could’ve found another greedy dwarf?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: Actually, in The Hobbit the ultimate destination was not Mount Doom, but rather the Lonely Mountain, otherwise referred to as Erebor, once the seat of Thrór’s Kingdom in the North. The clearest answer regarding Bilbo’s inclusion with Thorin Oakenshield’s party is found in the pages of Unfinished Tales (1980). Look in Part Three: The Third Age, Section III: “The Quest of Erebor.” Here we learn of a conversation where Gandalf explains to Gimli, Frodo, Pippin & Merry how he had a chance meeting with Thorin many years earlier and learned of the dwarf’s burning desire for revenge. Originally, Gandalf was not impressed with Thorin’s poorly strategized plans of making armies and war against Smaug. He meant to convince him that stealth and secrecy was his best course of action. Gandalf also had other plans of getting rid of the dragon so that Sauron would not use him as an extension of his power. The wizard himself never intended to go along with Thorin’s Quest, but he knew of a certain Hobbit that he thought would be a valuable asset.

“Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world.”

The dwarves were very much against adding Bilbo to the party, especially after meeting him in person, and it took a LOT of convincing on Gandalf’s part to get Thorin to yield to his counsel.

“‘Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!’ I said. ‘If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.’”

In the end, a deal was struck where Thorin reluctantly took heed of Gandalf’s urging; allowing Bilbo to accompany them in exchange for Gandalf’s temporary inclusion in the party.

“‘Very well,’ Thorin said at last after a silence. ‘He shall set out with my company, if he dares (which I doubt). But if you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too and look after your darling.’

“‘Good!’ I answered. ‘I will come, and stay with you as long as I can: at least until you have discovered his worth.’”

And so the inspired number of 14 was created at the last possible second. The poor hobbit was “volunteered” because of Gandalf’s unswerving conviction that Bilbo was more important than anyone foresaw, and also because of his exceptional debating skills with Dwarves. Please see Unfinished Tales (1980) for the full account.

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

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Q: Why did Sauron never come forth himself to do war? Couldn’t he have flattened all of Minas Tirith with one outstretched hand?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: Perhaps. But perhaps not. Remember that without the Ring, Sauron was not at his full power. When he created the Ring, Tolkien tells us that he allowed “a great part of his own former power [to] pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.” This allotment of power to the Ring seems to have been permanent. This is evidenced by the fact that if he *could* have won the War without the Ring, he would have done so. *With* the Ring, he would have been terrifyingly unstoppable. Without it, he had perhaps half, perhaps as much as two-thirds the power he possessed in the end of the Second Age, when it took *all of the combined power of Elves and Men* to defeat him. I.E. the Last Alliance of Gil-Galad and Elendil, when both races brought out and sacrificed their best to defeat him. When at last he was defeated and the Ring stripped from him, he became crippled as regards the amount of his power. Tolkien seems to imply that he was able to nurse himself back to health somewhat when he states “always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes shape and grows again.” But it is clear that he could never return to full power without the Ring. So the conclusion is that if he could be attacked and defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, Elendil’s sons and the Hosts of Gil-Galad *with* the Ring, then perhaps the combined might of Gandalf, Aragorn, the Sons of Elrond, Theoden, Eomer & Eowyn, Denethor’s & Theoden’s armies, and Faramir… could have defeated him *without* it. I think it’s safe to say that if he could have captured Frodo and regained the Ring, we probably would have seen him make some attacks in a more personal way, but it’s as Denethor said: “He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?”

-Anwyn

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Q: The Istari are a council of wizards. They number 7 total but we only know about 3 of them, Saruman the White/Many colors, Gandalf the Grey/White, and Radagast the Brown. Each had their own particular abilities and interests. Who are the other 4 and what are their interests/abilities?

-Karl J. Jurek

A: This question has been asked by many visitors to the TheOneRing.Net. As to the Istari, only three seem to play any role in events related to The Lord of the Rings, Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, and Radagast the Brown. Saruman’s outburst at Orthanc, when he spoke of ‘the rods of the Five Wizards,’ seems to have been letting out some private information. Nowhere in The Lord of the Rings do we learn anything more about the two other wizards, though Tolkien seems to have considered the question on a few occasions, and come up with a few different theories. Some of Tolkien’s notes on the Istari appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). In one of these passages, apparently written around 1954, Tolkien named the other two as Ithryn Luin, ‘the Blue Wizards,’ who passed into the East and never returned. Some other notes indicate that they were named Alatar and Pallando. To complicate matters, some more notes are published in The Peoples of Middle-earth(1996), in a small section “The Five Wizards” in the section titled “Last Writings.” There Tolkien wrote:

“No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in the lands west of Mordor.” In a still further note, Tolkien wrote: “The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion…”

These various notes are very interesting, and certainly worth looking up. Plus they give as best an answer as we’ll ever know to questions about the Istari.

-Turgon

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Q: If Samwise hated Bill Ferny so much, (bad enough to waste an apple, by throwing it at him) why then did he name the pony that he bought from Ferny, (the one he loved so much) Bill?

-John & Tasha Miller

A: First of all, your question lies more in the realm of subjective interpretation than it does in hard black & white facts. But my best interpretation is this: If you look closely at the text, Samwise does not actually refer to Bill Ferny as ‘Bill’… it seems he was using the Hobbit-ish practice of referring to an individual by the informal means of last-name-only, ‘Ferny.’ Perhaps because of his contempt for Bill Ferny we never hear Samwise give the courtesy of addressing him by first name. Several chapters later, before the Fellowship makes their departure from Rivendell, Samwise names the pony. Certainly not out of memory of Bill Ferny, but maybe because he was just fond of the name ‘Bill.’

-Quickbeam (@quickbeam2000)

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Q: Why do the Black Riders, though painted as so utterly terrifying, seem to have so little power for actual harm?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: My answer to this is in two parts: the answer that is indicated by the content, i.e., what is it about the characters that makes them this way, and secondly the fact that it constitutes a literary device that Tolkien used.

Part One: Yes, the Black Riders are terrifying. But what is the main strength of their image? Just that: an image. The tall, black shadow. (Please, don’t anybody jump on the George Lucas/Jar Jar Binks racism bandwagon. I am using “black” here not as a color of a person/creature, but as Darkness, or a Shadow. Evil images, not skin color.) The tall black shadow, towering over smaller creatures, intimidating. Tolkien tells us their weakness flat out. They do not see well, hardly at all, in daylight. Thus they are at the mercy of the black horses for direction and guidance much of the time. They can smell. Well and good, but it takes time to sniff out prey, and as we’ve seen, rescue or help can come in the time it takes to sniff somebody out. The five Black Riders, advancing over the lip of the dell… horrifying image. But what was the main fear? The knife. They had to rely on steel weapons just like the “good guys,” or at least until Frodo succumbed to the temptation of the Ring and became one of them, visible in their world, when they would then be able (presumably) to wrest the Ring from him by force. Again, in Return of the King, we see the Witch-King relying on a weapon, his mace, to kill Eowyn. So when it comes to actual physical combat, they are hampered by their limited daylight vision, and just as reliant upon weapons as any mortal. We’re not talking about Dungeons and Dragons dark mages or dark clerics here, who can cast spells with a single word. No. These are formerly mortal beings who have crossed into the spiritual realm, but are still able to wield a presence in the physical. Personally I think they’re fortunate to be able to wield the influence that they do! Now if Frodo were to put on the Ring, it would be another matter. They got him with the knife when he put it on at Weathertop, and they would have done more had not the others with their flaming brands driven them away. At that point they let them alone not because they couldn’t do more, but because they believed there was no need: the wound would overcome Frodo and all they had to do was follow, and he would fall into their hands. So spiritually, they are a horror to any rational being. Physically, they are hampered, and can be foiled with fire, rushing water, and even by broad daylight.

Part Two: I believe Tolkien deliberately used them this way to create a literary device by which Frodo would have no choice but to continue the journey. Everybody has to have some strong motive for leaving their home and pursuing a Quest. Desire to serve the Good is one motive, but Fear is usually stronger. With these creatures driving behind, Frodo and the gang had no choice but to continue to Rivendell or risk capture and wraith-making at the hands of the Black Riders and the Dark Lord. Since my other answer was so long, I’ll keep to that. I think it’s clear enough.

-Anwyn

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Q: Why do the Eagles never show up until the very last minute?

-from the Q & A Introduction

A: I must confess I stole this question from a friend of mine who was frustrated with The Lord of the Rings because he felt Tolkien used too much of what is known as “deus ex machina.” Basically what this means is that just as soon as we see the hero getting into a situation that looks totally inextricable, something we never knew could be part of the equation swoops in to rescue them! As I understand it, it’s based on an old technique of Greek Theater–when the hero got into trouble, they raised him out of the action in a chair, signifying that the Gods had stepped in to rescue him. Thus, “deus ex machina” or “machine of the gods.” So the Eagles, in three instances, act very much like our chair of the gods. First in the Hobbit, rescuing the party from Wargs and goblins and coming in at the last minute in the Battle of Five Armies, then in The Lord of the Rings, helping to win the battle before the Black Gate, and most importantly, pulling Sam and Frodo out of the lava once their Quest was complete. Not to mention Gwaihir’s little “side trips,” rescuing Gandalf from the pinnacle of Orthanc and bearing him from the top of Silvertine.

Now why is this, that if they were such a force to be reckoned with, that they did not come south and join the armies to begin with? Why would they only offer help when it was dire? Doesn’t it say something about their character that they would hold back until things were desperate?

My answer is, I readily admit, not verifiable in print. I can only offer a hypothesis that fits the facts and let you take it as you will. My opinion is this: they are animals. Talking animals, yes, but animals nonetheless. As such they are not one of the Free Peoples. Now, Tolkien’s use of animals falls into two categories: much beloved servants, such as the horses of the Rohirrim, Shadowfax and Sam’s faithful Bill. Or, they fall into the villainous category, usually in the form of giant spiders (Mirkwood and Shelob) but also the horrible carrion beasts which carried the flying Riders. (Servitude again, but for the other side.) I think the Eagles fall into this category also, kind of an antithesis to the horrible carrion creatures of the Riders. We do not know about the intelligence of these creatures. They may have been speechless animals, but they retained enough intelligence to know a foe (recall the beast “screaming” at Eowyn after she defied the Witch-King). The Eagles retain that much intelligence and much more, so that they can put forth their strength for the use of the Good when they are most needed, but perhaps know they would not fit into the grand scheme of the war as a regular force. I guess they would fall into the category of Special Forces, used as a last resort! But that is my answer, that as animals they are not one of the free peoples and their primary role is service to the Good, *when* it becomes necessary. Even Shadowfax was not in use all the time, and when Gandalf wasn’t riding him, he did not go out to war as a soldier.

-Anwyn

Update!

Well, folks, some readers thought that I was not specific enough with my Eagles answers. There were several people who wrote in to tell me the following information, so I’m only posting a few versions. Thanks to all who wrote to clarify for me!

–Anwyn

The answer to the question of the Eagles lies in The Silmarillion. It is revealed there, that the Eagles and the Ents were both, in a sense, agents of the Valar (of one particular one, in fact, the one associated with nature-was it Yavanna? I’m at work and can’t look it up). They were created after she saw what had been done in the creation of the dwarves. So the Eagles only interfere when the Valar allow, so the deus ex machina is an appropriate analogy indeed. (There are also one or two instances where they interfere in The Silmarillion – one I recall was the rescue of Fingon-I think-from Thangorodrim.)

–Tim Frankovich

As an aside on the subject of the Eagles, and why they are usually late to the fray… Manwe‘ was the Lord and Master of the winds and the creatures of the winds, and so the appearance of the Eagles at the last minute is seen as a form of Divine intervention (the form being the Valar overriding their usual modus operandi and stepping in to influence events in Middle-earth).

–Tony Hillerson

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Q: Did Tolkien ever draw a detailed map of Numenor? If so does anyone out there know where its possible to find one?

-Aaron

A: Tolkien only ever drew one sketch-map of Numenor, and Christopher Tolkien redrew it to appear in Unfinished Tales (1980). It’s facing page one of the Introduction in the Houghton Mifflin hardcover edition.

-Turgon

Update!

Also: For an in-depth look at Numenor and many other fantastic maps of Middle-earth, grab yourself a copy of The Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. This book has been around for many years, but with Christopher Tolkien’s publication of The History of Middle-earth volumes, many changes were made and a new edition appeared. You’ve never seen anything so comprehensive in your life! Zillions of details from all Four Ages and across all the volumes of Tolkien’s masterworks are represented. Cartography, languages, battles, journeys, and amazing cross-sections of underground cities. I highly recommend it as a companion piece to anything you read by Tolkien, and you’ll never be lost in the woods again! The paperback edition is readily available on Amazon.com.

The main character is really Samwise Gamgee, though you may not know it. I’m telling you now, it’s all about Sam.

You can safely argue Frodo Baggins should be the centerpoint of the tale. In The Hobbit Bilbo had the limelight for an entire book, and no one came close to grandstanding him (except maybe Smaug). Seems like Tolkien intended to chronicle the history of the Baggins family; first through Bilbo’s adventures–then with Frodo inheriting more adventures than he bargained for.

The story takes Frodo’s point of view often enough. Throughout the trilogy we share his experiences though personal sensations, his internal thoughts, and even his dreams. Tolkien lets us inside his suffering. And through that suffering we understand the dynamic of true sacrifice. He’s the Ringbearer, after all.

But a character-driven story like LOTR is not strictly about sacrifice (or heroism, or the impermanence of beauty, or all those themes that are intrinsic). I must admit the novel is woven of many threads but the groundwork of the tale, the telling of it, spins on a single proviso: Who is transformed the most between the opening and the closing page, taking the reader through his transformation?

Aragorn is the most heroic character. But it’s not his story.

Gandalf is greatest manipulator of events. But it’s not his story.

Sauron is the ever-present antagonist. But it’s not his story.

Let me give you the clearest example from another fantasy, familiar to all but the most sheltered–Star Wars. You think the original Star Wars films are about some farmboy named Luke Skywalker? You think he’s the main character? BUZZZ! I’m so sorry… thanks for playing! If you had said Darth Vader, you’d be walking home with the grand prize.

The guy in the black helmet is pulling all the strings. Vader begins the first scene of the first episode by walking through that laser-blasted door looking for Leia. He is the first character the audience has a relationship with. More importantly, his choices put the plot in motion for all three films. Every facet of the story we experience is an after-effect of what Darth Vader is doing. When Return of the Jedi comes to its conclusion, it is only after Vader’s most difficult redemption and after we see his glowing form with his predecessors, that we know the story is over. He’s redeemed. Roll credits. The end.

When you write a 1,200-page novel, you have the luxury of branching off into other subplots and you can take time to work with various characters. But you still need one common thread that thematically brings your story full circle. The transformation of Sam is Tolkien’s central storytelling device, though not the most obvious one. There are many clues that reveal Sam, not Frodo, as the main element.

Sam goes an extreme route: from simple gardener to a participant in legend. He starts things off in The Fellowship of the Ring as the first new character we learn about, through a description offered by his father, the Gaffer:

Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo’s tales… Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you.

So you see, our dear Sam is the contact point that we immediately relate to. Just like him, we are daydreaming of fairies, elves, and elephants. That is why Tolkien introduces Sam at once. All the magnificent events of the War of the Ring, the journey, battles, treachery and triumph, are diluted down to this profound effect: Sam is transformed beyond what he recognizes in himself. In the end he becomes the subject of all his dreams. Even he acknowledges that his feats might someday be the subject of future stories and songs.

Sam’s conversation with Frodo in the pass of Cirith Ungol says it all:

‘But that’s not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually–their paths were laid that way, as you put it… I wonder what sort of a tale we’ve fallen into?’

‘I wonder,’ said Frodo. ‘But I don’t know. And that’s the way of a real tale… The people in it don’t know…’

And when Sam realizes the grand stories of the First Age, of Beren and the Silmarils, are indeed connected to the present unfolding events he says:

‘Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on. Don’t the great tales never end?’

‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them come, and go when their part’s ended.’

To this Sam replies, ‘…Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales.’ And with that strangely self-referential remark, the Professor quietly moves Sam into his greatest moments of peril and deliverance.

As final proof, I offer a closer look at the novel’s conclusion. The epic story does not end with the destruction of the Ring, not even with Frodo’s departure from the Grey Havens. The final moment we cling to as the story closes its doors, is of Sam coming back to his family, sitting at his table and declaring that his role in the formation of a myth is done. Three simple words, “Well, I’m back,” are his final admission that there is no more story for him to contribute to.

Sam’s perspective is that he can finally return to domestic life without any further adventures. An end has come to chronicling his tale. He is now back with his family, back to his private life; and the intrusive eyes of future generations can leave him in peace.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam
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Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

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This article was first published on March 1st 2001 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!

Of course, the question we’re all pondering is: what scenes will be slated for this period of filming?  We already know that 3 foot 7 were looking to cast extras with ‘character faces’, as described in their ad, here.   Spanish Tolkien site elanillounico.com and French site Tolkiendrim.com both report that, apparently, these extras are sought for scenes which will take place in Bree; which of course does seem to fit with a need for character faces.

And this is where the wild speculation begins – get ready, because we’re guessing outside the box here!  What scenes for The Hobbit movies might be set in Bree?   Surely there is no need for An Unexpected Journey Extended Edition material to take us back to Bree on the journey of Bilbo and the dwarves? More interestingly, perhaps it could be a flashback to Gandalf and Thorin’s first meeting on the road, when they passed a night at Bree, as described in The Quest for Erebor? What important information  might the film makers wish to disclose in such a scene – more about the back story of Azanulbizar and the disappearance of Thorin’s father, Thrain?

In their article, our French friends go even further and speculate that this may be a chance for some of the oft discussed ’bridge’ material between the stories of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.  Perhaps we will get to see Aragorn and Gandalf meeting in Bree, during Aragorn’s ranging days in the North, before the beginning of the hunt for Gollum.  Viggo Mortensen only recently stated again, this time to Total Film magazine, that he would be keen to play a role in The Hobbit trilogy.  He is reported here as having said, ‘Would I play Aragorn again? Sure, if it seemed sensible to do so.  He’s not in the book of The Hobbit, but if they’re working with the appendices they may be intending to bridge the 60-year Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings gap.’  Mortensen went on to say, ‘I think I would have heard by now so I have to assume [not]… But Peter Jackson is famous for his reshoots, so you never know!’

Now that is something exciting to think about.  Total idle speculation of course; we don’t even know for sure that scenes ARE being filmed in Bree. But it’s fun to dream of a little glimpse of Strider….

Thanks to our friends at Tolkiendrim.com for their report!

What a fun movie! Dominic Monaghan (Meriadoc Brandybuck) came on board to be our wonderful narrator! Actually this film is a time capsule of many decades of pop culture history — giving us the full story on how the world has embraced Tolkien’s masterpiece THE LORD OF THE RINGS over 50 years and more!

Winner of the Outstanding Achievement Award at the Newport Beach Film Festival, RINGERS was produced in association with TheOneRing.net — this remarkable little film was forged BY fans and FOR fans, just like our website, with the production/writing talent of Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway (who hosts TORn TUESDAY every week), Jeff Marchelletta, and supercool director Carlene Cordova. It was executive produced by X-Men/Transformers guru Tom DeSanto.

With a wonderful rock-driven score and detailing all the outpouring of love bestowed on Tolkien over many generations, this film is a must-have for your digital collection! Get it on iTunes now for only $9.99!

From the original Sony Press Release:

“RINGERS is comprehensive, entertaining and informative pop culture history.”
– The Toronto Star

“…Will always be a salient part of ‘LORD OF THE RINGS’ history…
See it, absorb it, love it.” – FilmThreat

Winner of “Outstanding Achievement” Award at the
Newport Beach Film Festival

RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS

FASCINATING DOCUMENTARY CAPTURES THE HISTORY, INFLUENCE AND PHENOMENON THAT IS LORD OF THE RINGS

CULVER CITY, Calif. (September 12, 2005) – Sony invites you to return to the Shire with the release of the feature-length documentary RINGERS: LORD OF THE FANS, direct to DVD.  In association with the popular fan-site TheOneRing.net, Carlene Cordova produced, directed and wrote this award-winning film with executive producer Tom DeSanto(X-Men, X2: X-Men United and Transformers), which charts the incredible influence and ripple-effect that Lord of the Rings has had on worldwide pop culture over the past five decades.  Whether you are a fan or first timer, critics agree, RINGERS, stands as the most comprehensive film documenting the ongoing impact of J.R.R. Tolkien’s literary achievement.

Dominic Monaghan (star of ABC’s Lost and the Academy Award^® winning Lord of the Rings trilogy) narrates the documentary as it looks behind the curtain between Lord of the Rings and how it inspired so many artists of different mediums.  The film moves beyond “cult classic” and through different generations unearthing the way legendary rock musicians, filmmakers, professors, actors and authors all unite under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  Interviewees included in the film are Lord of the Rings trilogy filmmaker Peter Jackson as well as Elijah Wood, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Sean Astin and David Carradine.  Infused with a dynamic rock-driven score, irreverent cut-out animation (á la Terry Gilliam), and a centerpiece audience sing-a-long, RINGERS is a genre-busting documentary that shows how a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions.

RINGERS continues the momentum of the motion picture trilogy Lord of the Rings, a winner of 17 Academy Awards including Best Picture and Best Director for Peter Jackson, who made history as the first person to direct three major feature films simultaneously. 

From the official synopsis:

Ringers: Lord of the Fans is a feature-length documentary that reveals the ongoing cultural phenomenon created by The Lord of the Rings.  Very funny and often moving, Ringers shows the hidden power behind Tolkien’s books — and how after 50 years a single literary work continues to spark the minds and hearts of millions, across cultures and across time.

Shot with groundbreaking new digital technology in 24P, Ringers explores the real foundations of Middle-earth; a community of true fans who share a common bond.  Moving beyond “cult classic” and over several different generations, the film unearths academics, musicians, authors, filmmakers, and a plethora of pop junkies — the people gathered under the banner of ‘Ringer.’  From the hippie counter-culture to the electronic age; from the Bakshi animated film to Jackson’s epic trilogy; this documentary brings together extensive footage from across the globe.  With units in Los Angeles, San Diego, Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Bonn, Germany, Wellington, New Zealand, and Oxford, England, our cameras capture the most fascinating “Ringers” and Lord of the Rings events.

What began as the private amusement of a tweedy Oxford professor has now become a new mythology for the 21^st century. Ringers: Lord of the Fans shows how an adventure story published in 1954 has had dynamic ripple-effects through Western pop-culture.  Ringers carefully pulls away the veil between Tolkien’s book and the creations of art, music, and community that have been inspired by it.

Check out the official trailer here: