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	<title>Hobbit Movie News and Rumors &#124; TheOneRing.net™ &#187; Green Books</title>
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		<title>The Hobbit: too little butter over too much bread?</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/10/76789-the-hobbit-too-little-butter-over-too-much-bread/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2013 12:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[Ringer Tajik tells us of this fascinating analysis of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, and its two follow-ups by Mark Lee at Overthinking It that adds more fuel &#8212; and some hard numbers &#8212; to the gently simmering debate over the three-film decision that Jackson and the studios made in mid-2012. The image at right, [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?attachment_id=76790" rel="attachment wp-att-76790"><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/hobbit-lotr2-words-per-second-300x198.jpg" alt="hobbit-lotr2-words-per-second" width="300" height="198" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-76790" /></a> Ringer Tajik tells us of this fascinating analysis of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, and its two follow-ups by Mark Lee at <i>Overthinking It</i> that adds more fuel &#8212; and some hard numbers &#8212; to the gently simmering debate over the three-film decision that Jackson and the studios made in mid-2012. </p>
<p>The image at right, part of Lee&#8217;s analysis, is certainly food for thought.<span id="more-76789"></span></p>
<hr />
<p>I know I’m late to this party, but I finally got around to seeing The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey after hearing much belly-aching over how the story of a single book is split into three separate movies: it seems like a blatant cash grab by the studios, a cynical move that put franchise movie economics ahead of things like storytelling and pacing.</p>
<p>After seeing the movie, I can definitely sympathize with these complaints. It felt slow at times, particularly during the multiple expository scenes in the first half and the interminably long action sequence in the second half. Most importantly, I felt like the story didn’t advance far enough to justify taking up an entire movie on its own, especially compared to the Lord of the Rings movies.</p>
<p>So me being me, I decided to put this issue into quantitative terms. Specifically, I wanted to compare the length of the Hobbit movie to that of the source text, and run the same analysis for the three Lord of the Rings movies.</p>
<p>[<a href="http://www.overthinkingit.com/2013/08/07/book-length-vs-movie-length/?utm_source=feedburner">Read More</a>]</p>
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		<title>Tom Bombadil &#8211; Master and Mystery</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/07/76589-featured-article-tom-bombadil-master-and-mystery/</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Aug 2013 05:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Cliff Quickbeam Broadway</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[&#160; Continuing a series of articles from our international fan-base, contributor and TORn TUESDAY friend Tedoras brings us a thorough look at the most bemusing/amusing character in all of Tolkiens&#8217; legendarium: the master of the Old Forest himself, Tom Bombadil. Tom Bombadil &#8211; Master and Mystery By Tedoras             Mention the name of Tom Bombadil [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tom-bombadil-297x300.jpg" alt="Tom Bombadil by Alan Lee" width="297" height="300" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-75565" /> <br /> &nbsp; Continuing a series of articles from our international fan-base, contributor and TORn TUESDAY friend Tedoras brings us a thorough look at the most bemusing/amusing character in all of Tolkiens&#8217; legendarium: the master of the Old Forest himself, Tom Bombadil.</p>
<p><span id="more-76589"></span></p>
<hr />
<h3>Tom Bombadil &#8211; Master and Mystery</h3>
<p style="text-align: left;" align="center">By Tedoras</p>
<p>            Mention the name of Tom Bombadil around Tolkien fans and you are likely to spark a debate: a debate which, in Tolkien fandom, remains one of the most controversial and longest-argued of them all. This is perhaps because even the most fundamental questions surrounding Tom Bombadil are hard to answer; certainly, he is the most enigmatic character in <i>The Lord of the Rings</i>. Because of his uncanny nature, Tom Bombadil remains unique among all of Tolkien’s characters: as readers, we have the same understanding of him today as readers did when they first discovered him—that is to say, while scholarly works on Aragorn and Frodo abound, we are no closer to uncovering the <i>true</i> Tom Bombadil today than we were almost sixty years ago. In writing this article, I hope to accomplish a few goals: first, to present a thorough character study of Tom Bombadil (i.e. to lay out what we <i>know</i>); second, to discuss the main or popular theories in the debate (i.e. to lay out what we <i>think</i>); and third, to draw a conclusion (or, rather, an inference) as to the true nature of Tom Bombadil. Whether you are a veteran of this debate or are just now being exposed to it, I hope you will join me on a journey of herculean proportions to answer the most testing of all questions: who (or what) is Tom Bombadil?</p>
<p>As Saruman coldly says in <i>The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey</i>: “Let us examine what we know.” Well, in this instance, that is very apt advice, indeed. Tom Bombadil, as many of you already know, stumbles upon the hobbits in the Old Forest in September of the Third Age 3018; he proceeds to rescue them from Old Man Willow, and then brings them along to his home deep in the Forest where he lives with his (also rather enigmatic) wife Goldberry. Tom is marked throughout these episodes with a light and cheery tone: from his colorful attire to his seemingly continual singing (and his <i>ring a dong dillo</i>’s). Yet Tom’s light-hearted nature—while ostensibly unwarranted, considering where he lives—is, in fact, well-attributed: he is a very, very old and wise man (or rather, being that looks like a man). We will, in time, return to look more closely at the importance and uniqueness of Tom’s personality, but for now, let us focus on his age.</p>
<p>Readers quickly become aware that Tom is a special character, even from our very first meeting with him. One of the reasons for this is his fantastic age. And while it may not surprise us that Tom is indeed old, just <i>how</i> old may. Frodo, who appears just as confused about Tom as we are as readers, asks him repeatedly, “Who are you?” (Tolkien 129). Tom replies that he is “eldest,” and then he proceeds to explain:</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?attachment_id=76591" rel="attachment wp-att-76591"><img class="alignleft  wp-image-76591" alt="TomOldManWillow" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/TomOldManWillow.jpg" width="480" height="386" /></a>“Tom was here before the river and the trees&#8230;He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving&#8230;When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already here, before the seas were bent&#8230;before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” (129)</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Since Tom’s own information is arguably the most accurate about him, let us use the above quotation to determine just how old he is. First, we know Tom has lived in Arda since “before the river and the trees,” a reference to the Spring of Arda. The Spring of Arda is the period from 1900 to 3450 (in Valian Years, not solar years, mind you—though we will return to this soon) of the Years of the Lamps, in which the world was populated with living things. Secondly, he has been in Middle-earth since year 1 of the First Age, when Men awoke; additionally, he saw the hobbits migrating west around T.A. 1300. Tom also saw the Elves pass west: this refers to the Sundering of the Elves and, more precisely, to the First and Second Sunderings in the Years of the Trees 1105 and 1115, respectively. The “seas were bent” in F.A. 587 following the War of Wrath. Most interestingly, though, is that Tom was in Arda <i>before</i> Morgoth (and, in turn, all the Valar) came there during the First War, from year 1 to about 1499 of the Years of the Lamps. Thus, we know that Tom Bombadil was one of the first—if not the very first—inhabitants of Arda following the Music of the Ainur and the creation of Eä.</p>
<p>Now, knowing that Tom has existed (it is, as yet, impossible to say that he was <i>born</i> or <i>created</i>, or even that he <i>entered</i> Arda) since year 1 of the Years of the Lamps, we can calculate his exact age. We must note, however, the sort of ripple that exists in time in Tolkien’s works: each year in the Years of the Lamps and Years of the Trees is a <i>Valian year</i> (about 9.582 <i>solar years</i>). The First Age, with the rising of the Sun, marks the use of <i>solar years</i> in counting. So, we can use the range from 1 Years of the Lamps to T.A. 3018 (when Tom meets the hobbits) to calculate his age. We simply multiply 3500 (the number of Valian years in the Years of the Lamps) by 9.582 (3500 x 9.582 = 33,537), repeat this process for the Years of the Trees (~1500 x 9.582 = 14,373), and add the total number of solar years from all the Ages up until T.A. 3018 (590 + 3,441 + 3018 = 7049). <i>So, by T.A. 3018 Tom Bombadil is already some 54,959 (solar) years old! </i></p>
<p>Beyond his age, Tom is characterized by a few other unique traits. First is his reaction (or lack thereof) to the Ring. “Show me the Ring!” he says to Frodo, who, surprisingly, hands it right over without any qualms (much in contrast to the very protective, hesitant Frodo we see later on). Tom proceeds to “put it to his eye and laugh[s]” (130). Yes, the reaction of Tom Bombadil to the One Ring, the most powerful and dangerous object in the world, is laughter—not worry nor despair, and certainly not fear. Then, when Tom puts the Ring on his finger, there is “no sign of [him] disappearing” (130). And how does Tom react to this instance? You’ve got it right: he laughs and, to further show how little he cares for the Ring, he does what appears to be a little sleight of hand with it before returning it to Frodo “with a smile” (130).</p>
<p>Not only is Tom unaffected by the Ring himself, but he notices its effects on others. When Frodo slips on the Ring (to check that is, in fact <i>the</i> Ring after lending it to Tom), Tom immediately notices the invisible hobbit sneaking off:</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>“‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards [Frodo] with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. ‘Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring!” (131)</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Clearly, Tom is unaffected, personally or otherwise, by the Ring. And he is the only character in the whole of the novel to have this ostensible immunity to the Ring. It is certainly a powerful being that holds this trait.</p>
<p>Yet what do we typically associate with power and wisdom? Perhaps visions of age-worn, rather tough and callous individuals spring to mind—yet this is not the case with Tom Bombadil. As I noted before, Tom has a rather affable, light-hearted personality. He is certainly not a man of affectation: no matter the circumstance nor the people involved, Tom is always in a joyous mood, singing and bouncing around (or at least disposed to do so). Tom is so happy-go-lucky because <i>he has no concept of fear</i>. Take the following examples: (1) he rescues the hobbits from the clutches of Old Man Willow as if he were reprimanding a child, not challenging a great evil; (2) he lives in the Old Forest, a place ripe with fearful beasts and about which tales of fright abound; (3) he saves the hobbits from a barrow-wight, coming with song and a spring in his step to one of the most dreadful and dangerous mishaps in the story. Take this quotation from “Fog on the Barrow-Downs,” for example:</p>
<p>“’You won’t find your clothes again,’ said Tom, bounding down from the mound, and laughing as he danced round them in the sunlight. One would have thought that nothing dangerous or dreadful had happened; and indeed the horror faded out of their hearts as they looked at him, and saw the merry glint in his eyes.” (140)</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?attachment_id=76592" rel="attachment wp-att-76592"><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-76592" alt="Bombadilbookcover" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Bombadilbookcover.jpg" width="320" height="500" /></a>It is plain to note: where others would fear, Tom Bombadil does not. It is not even that Tom is simply not afraid, nor that he has overcome his fear; rather, he has no concept, no idea whatsoever, of fear. He is entirely composed of the good-natured, light-hearted fibers that render him capable of laughing in the very face of the One Ring.</p>
<p>And this lack of fear (especially with regards to the Ring) is unique. Gandalf certainly shows a sense of fear on many occasions: from his fear of entering Moria, to his fear of the Ring and the Enemy. Galadriel and Elrond both fear the Ring, for in either using it or keeping it hidden they know it will bring about their ruin. Even the Enemy is not free from the grasp of fear: when he learns of Aragorn’s return and the possibility of united opposition to him, Sauron begins to feel afraid. While the fear that all of these characters experience may differ in many ways, fear it is nonetheless. And it is exactly this sense of fear that Tom Bombadil does not possess.</p>
<p>There remains now just one last point regarding Tom’s character that I believe is worth noting: his repeated association with the earth. Frodo, the night the hobbits spend in Tom Bombadil’s house, has a vivid dream of</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>“a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.” (132)</p>
<p>This dream—a clear reference to Valinor—is interrupted: Frodo awakens to see “Tom whistling like a tree-full of birds” and he notes “the sun was already slanting down the hill&#8230;Outside everything was green and pale gold” (132). Here, we note Tom’s stark association with the earth or, perhaps more prominently, his dissociation from Valinor. Tom interrupts this dream (in essence, the thought that he may be associated with Valinor), and he immediately brings Frodo back to the earth: to the birds, trees, and green of the living, mortal earth. The notion that Tom is more an earthly, temporal being is quite important: it is vindicated by what we have learned of his age, and it will greatly help us in deciding what Tom is and isn’t.</p>
<p>Knowing what we do about Tom Bombadil now, we can move on to the second half of this task: discovering who Tom truly is. We will be looking at the main and other popular theories of this debate, and one by one, we will see which, if any of the pre-proposed categories, Tom fits. After thoroughly examining all options, then—and only then—will we be able to make a final conclusion. (And, if we are lucky, such a conclusion may not be that we will simply never know the answer.)</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Is Tom&#8230;</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">A Man, Elf, Hobbit, Dwarf, etc?</span></strong></p>
<p>Tom is decidedly <i>not</i> a member of any of the races or kindreds of Middle-earth. We can most certainly eliminate him from all such groups (especially from Men and Elves, which would be the two most likely groups) by noting his age (i.e. he was around <i>before</i> them), his physical characteristics (size, beard, etc.), and how the Ring does not affect him.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">A Vala?</span></strong></p>
<p>It is certainly difficult to claim that Tom is one of the great Powers of the World for many reasons. First, all fourteen of the Valar are accounted for, and Tom is not named among them. Second, as we noted before, Tom was living in Arda <i>before </i>the Valar (led by Morgoth) entered the world. Third, Tom refers to himself as “Eldest,” a title to which all the Valar are beholding, not just he (if indeed he were a Vala). Lastly, we know that Tom calls Morgoth “the Dark Lord” (as quoted above). It is hard to imagine any of the Valar referring to their greatest rival, the embodiment of Evil, by this name: certainly, the Valar reserved such reverence in the title “Lord” for Manwe alone. Additionally, fans over at The Encyclopedia of Arda have noted that characterize we would expect to note that Tom is a Vala (such as Gandalf, one of the Maiar), do not.</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">A Maiar?</span></strong></p>
<p>This theory is, in some ways, a rather attractive one. We know, first of all, that not all of the Maiar were named by Tolkien—this, of course, allows for hypothesizing that Tom is indeed one of them. However, some good counterpoints contest this argument. First, Tom is unaffected by the Ring. We know for certain that other Maiar, from Gandalf to Sauron, were affected by the power and draw of the One Ring. Additionally, remember the total lack of a sense of fear we discussed before? Well, a sense of fear regarding the Ring (or its fate, for the Enemy) pervades the Maiar involved with this struggle. Yet such is not the case with Tom. Also, it is interesting to note how these Maiar are all allied, with one side or another, while Tom remains independent from the conflict.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">The One?</span></strong></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Some have even pushed the idea that Tom is The One, Eru Ilúvatar. Yet for all the auspicious remarks made about Tom (how he is “eldest,” etc.), this theory does not hold water either. At the Council of Elrond, we learn many of the reasons why this theory is false. Gandalf states that “he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others,” a trait that we would assume the mightiest being of them all, the creator himself, would possess (259). Glorfindel also comments on the idea of giving Tom the Ring to keep safe: “in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First” (259). The notion that Sauron and his folk could defeat Eru (indeed, the notion that Eru is even capable of being killed, defeated, or otherwise harmed) seems rather ridiculous. Furthermore, evidence from Tolkien himself puts a final end to this theory: in Letter 181, Tolkien explicitly states that there is no embodiment of Eru, who exists apart from the World entirely.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">A Spirit?</span></strong></p>
<p>In many of his earlier writings on what would become <i>The Silmarillion</i> (as collected by Christopher Tolkien in <i>The Book of Lost Tales</i>), Tolkien had a concept of Middle-earth as much more similar to his idea of Faerie. Originally, many spirits and sprites (of all kinds and names) entered the World just as the Ainur did—and this notion was not entirely lost in the final published form of <i>The Silmarillion</i>. It is an attractive theory (for many reasons) to say that Tom is a sort of spirit.</p>
<p>The best route to take within this theory is to propose that Tom is a “nature spirit” (perhaps even a “Father Nature,” if you like). First, it makes sense that Tom would come from the Music of the Ainur—this is in accord with his inhabiting Arda from the very beginning. Second, the notion that spirits exist in nature is evident in Middle-earth: from Ents to Old Man Willow to the great prevalence of personification, nature is much more “alive” in Middle-earth than we take it to be. As noted before, Tom is starkly associated with nature and the earth. The way he lives so harmoniously with bird and beast (and how he seems to command nature in his dealings with Old Man Willow) certainly supports this theory. Additionally, we know that Tom is not concerned with the Ring (Gandalf notes that “he would not have come” to the Council of Elrond, and we noted before how remains “unallied” despite the times). He, actually, shows a total disconnect from the affairs of all other human-like beings; he is, rather, concerned only with the natural world. Tom’s neutrality greatly parallels the neutrality that we prescribe to nature. Since we, as fans, do accept the existence and the role of Ents such as Treebeard, I believe making the jump from a natural “spirit of nature” to a man <i>embodying</i> the “spirit of nature” is not so difficult nor controversial. Yet still, we must ask ourselves why, then, does the Ring not affect Tom, when it can certainly affect other aspects of the natural order?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">An Incarnation of the Music of Ainur?</span></strong></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>This theory is rather unique, and more recently developed than the others. Basically, we know that of all the above theories, only the notion that Tom is a “nature spirit” is relatively sound; branching from that theory, a fan known only as “Ranger from the North” developed a theory in which he posits Tom is “the incarnated spirit of the Music of the Ainur.” The “Ranger” notes two flaws with the basic “nature spirit” argument: first, Tom is not most closely associated with nature (he, personally, shows this discord by fighting against Old Man Willow and the darkness of the Forest); second, Tom is, however, associated with song and music <i>throughout</i> (the way in which he fights nature, for example, is with song). So, it is agreed upon by many (and I am of the same opinion) that Tom is, in fact, a spirit (an incarnate/embodiment) of sorts (i.e. that he has some relation to the Music). The question now becomes whether or not you believe he is more closely related to nature or to the Music itself.</p>
<p>“Ranger from the North” makes a stellar case for the latter. First, he works with the evidence from the “nature spirit” theory, showing how entirely probable the existence of other, extraneous spirits/beings is in Tolkien’s cosmology. Second, he shows how Arda itself is not the incarnation of the Music, distinguishing Middle-earth from the means by which it was created. Then, the “Ranger” makes a very clever comparison between Ungoliant and Bombadil: he notes how, since Ungoliant exists in many ways as an incarnation of the discord of the Music, she parallels Tom; these two are, he says, antitheses, and should be considered in the same way. Just as Ungoliant embodies the evil and darkness with which she was made, so too does Tom embody the light and happiness of the source of his creation. The “Ranger,” additionally, notes a detail of paramount importance: Tom’s name is not all it appears. Certainly, we hear “Tom” and think of our odd uncle or younger brother—yet such is not the case, says the “Ranger.” He notes the story of the great gong Tombo in the <i>Unfinished Tales</i>—coincidence that “t-o-m-b-o” are the first six letters of Tom Bombadil? Is it also coincidental that we find yet another association between Tom and music here? I think not.</p>
<p>The “Ranger from the North” has written extensively on his theory, and I seek not to describe all of his arguments. If you would like a much more detailed and thorough examination of the Music of the Ainur theory, I highly recommend reading what the “Ranger” himself has written here: <a href="http://www.whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/">http://www.whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>So, we have reached the end of our journey through the “Bombadil Problem.” We have examined the arguments, waded through confusion, sorted out messes, and procured evidence. It is, in my opinion, certain that we must continue to think of Tom as unique, that we must give credit to the enigma that he (intentionally) is. The true “Master” here is perhaps the Professor himself: the truly contradictory nature of this enigma—his simplicity in character and simultaneous complexity in literature—was well crafted. The mystery of Tom reaches far back into the deeps of Tolkien’s mythology, and roots may be found stretching back to the Professor’s first tales of Faerie. While the “riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma” that we call Tom Bombadil will continue to challenge us, so too will it excite us. For through continued debate and discussion, we return time and again to the tales and stories we hold so dear, pouring of pages for hours, scouring word-by-word for some secret hint, trying to piece the puzzle back together. We know that the mystery about Tom was intentionally crafted, and that the Professor may have taken the truth about this character and his own motives in designing him to the grave, yet our drive to uncover more about this most enigmatic of beings is not diminished—why? Perhaps it is precisely because of Tom’s nature that we are fascinated by him: in a Middle-earth so divided by light and dark, good and evil (i.e. clear answers to the “who” and “what”), Tom exists as an uncommitted, uncategorized blank slate. He is the one being so open to interpretation, so predisposed to our imagination, so designed for our wondering. It is not surprising that we love Tom so much, that we pursue this debate so tirelessly, because we each craft our very own Tom Bombadil in our minds—and it is the Professor who intentionally left Tom open to such interpretation. Perhaps we can accept that Tom is simply a mystery—though, no doubt, we will continue discussing and searching for the “truth.”</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>All references to the text from:</p>
<p><i>The Lord of the Rings</i> by JRR Tolkien, single-volume edition, Houghton Mifflin (HarperCollins), 2001 (1994 edition of the text)</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>More information about Tom Bombadil, as well as links to other arguments, can be found below:</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>1)      <a href="http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature">http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tom_Bombadil/Nature</a></p>
<p>2)      <a href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html</a></p>
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		<title>The literary legacy that members of the Tolkien Estate want to protect</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/04/76401-the-literary-legacy-that-members-of-the-tolkien-estate-want-to-protect/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Aug 2013 04:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Kelvarhin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Christopher Tolkien]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TORn friend,  Brian Tither, who has studied Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at Victoria University NZ, has sent this response to our post on Making Sense of the latest Tolkien Lawsuit. The literary legacy that members of the Tolkien Estate want to protect By:  Brian Tither Introduction I think that the reason why some [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-74383" alt="JRR Tolkien" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/JRR-Tolkien.jpg" width="181" height="185" />TORn friend,  Brian Tither, who has studied Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at Victoria University NZ, has sent this response to our post on <a title="Making Sense of the latest Tolkien Lawsuit" href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/16/75725-making-sense-of-the-latest-tolkien-lawsuit/" target="_blank">Making Sense of the latest Tolkien Lawsuit</a>.</p>
<p><span id="more-76401"></span></p>
<p><strong>The literary legacy that members of the Tolkien Estate want to protect</strong></p>
<p>By:  Brian Tither</p>
<p><strong>Introduction</strong></p>
<p>I think that the reason why some members of the Tolkien Estate have sued Saul Zaentz and its subsidiaries over JRR Tolkien’s literary legacy is because of their overriding concern for protecting that legacy above all else. In particular I think that this is the intention of Christopher and Priscilla Tolkien, the surviving children of Tolkien. And as a former student of Tolkien’s academic speciality in Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic in New Zealand I personally support this intention after being frustrated at The Hobbit production being only valued for the other Hollywood productions and tourist dollars that it may bring into New Zealand. I am also frustrated at the way a lot of the people involved in the production seem to only value it for its enhancement of their individual film projects.</p>
<p><strong>The literary legacy of JRR Tolkien</strong></p>
<p>Tolkien was the Professor of Anglo Saxon at Oxford University in the years that Christopher and Priscilla and their deceased brothers John and Michael were children and Tolkien would come home and tell them stories based on the literature that he was teaching at Oxford. This came from Old Icelandic texts like Voluspa, which describes the rise and fall of Midgard, the Old Icelandic Middle-earth, where Tolkien got his names for his Dwarves, and The Saga of the Volsungs, where Tolkien got his ideas for Bilbo’s encounters with Gollum and Smaug from the God Loki taking off Andvari the Dwarf a ring which causes problems for its bearers and Sigurd’s slaying of Fafnir the dragon, which are supplemented by similar things in the Old English poem Beowulf. This was also supplemented by Tolkien getting his ideas for Beorn, which translates as ‘warrior’ from Old English and as ‘bear’ from Old Icelandic, and Bilbo Baggins, which translates as ‘dweller in a dwelling in a bag’ from Middle English and ‘dweller with a sword from ones in a bag’ from Old English, from characters such as Bodvar Bjarki, which translates as ‘the bear warrior’, and Hott Hjalti, which translates as ‘the small sword hilt’, from The Saga of King Hrolf Kraki, where Hott’s parents are described as living in what appears to be a house built in a hole in the ground.</p>
<p>Given that the name Hott and the Old English word holbytla for ‘hole-builder’ conflate together as hobbit, which means ‘small hole-builder’, and given the oral tradition that developed between Tolkien and his children, it is easy to see how Tolkien took it a step further with his children and got them to help him with creating a story from him one day writing down the words: ‘In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit’. And from there the story developed as an oral tradition between them until Tolkien decided to write it down in a manuscript and this was published as The Hobbit some years later after he happened to show it to someone who recommended that he got it published. Then he wrote The Lord of the Rings, in which he referred to the mythology, later published as The Silmarillion, that he had been creating since before his children were born, while incorporating a character that he and his children devised from a doll that they owned, which they named Tom Bombadil.</p>
<p><strong>The legacy of the Tolkien Estate</strong></p>
<p>But the story of his children’s involvement did not stop there because Tolkien consulted Christopher on virtually every turn of The Lord of the Rings as he wrote it, while Christopher went on to become a university lecturer in Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic as well. Then when Tolkien passed away he had Christopher appointed as his literary executor and charged him to complete The Silmarillion, which Christopher did. And he also appointed him with John, Michael and Priscilla to take care of other estate matters as well.</p>
<p>This included taking care of matters regarding his selling off the film rights to the books to Saul Zaentz, which Tolkien did to cover the high inheritance taxes that the books accrued upon his death, all which grew out of his experiences with being swamped by the royalty taxes that he had to pay due to the sale of the books from the popularity that he did not anticipate for them. And this included the estate ensuring that Saul Zaentz and its subsidiaries did not step out of parameters that were set by Tolkien to protect the literary legacy of his works, which by implication stretched into his academic speciality to the original texts where he got his ideas from that have no copyright on them. And this experience grew out of seeing what Walt Disney did to the works of the Grimm’s Brothers the latter who Tolkien had a particular affinity for because the Grimm’s brothers also created philological principles, which Tolkien applied in his academia and works. Hence Tolkien did not want to see tangible things like this in his works being turned into intangible things like theme parks, which by implication extends into things like video games and gambling outlets such as slot machines.</p>
<p>And there is a need to protect this literary legacy if this literature is not to become something only valued by the money that people might make out of it at the expense of accessing that literature to many. And one of the things that I have been perturbed about as a student of Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic is experiencing both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit productions consulting linguistic and Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic experts for the purpose of developing the movies without considering how such expertise comes from the collective intellectual property of teachers and students in these specialities, even though such intellectual property was strangely fused with Hollywood action movie conventions in the films. And possibly this is why The Hobbit movies have so far not had such experts promoting them like The Lord of the Rings movies had, which probably made it expedient for the first trilogy of movies to be nominated for Oscars in categories like Best Director and Best Film, which they won on the third movie, while the second trilogy so far has not received any such nominations.</p>
<p><strong>The valuation of the legacy in New Zealand</strong></p>
<p>Meanwhile, as I said above, The Hobbit movies have been only valued as a means to bring more Hollywood productions and tourist dollars into New Zealand and it has been seen by people involved in the production as only a means to develop their individual film projects. The latter was made clear to me in October 2010 when allegedly there was industrial action going on which was allegedly having Warner Brothers considering moving the production elsewhere. The impression I got then from such individuals was that if the production went offshore it would severely jeopardise their projects, which was enhanced to me by someone who spoke at The Hobbit rally, which occurred a few days before Warner Brothers decided to keep the production in New Zealand. This person referred to how The Lord of the Rings production created a community of filmmakers, which has left me the impression that this community has been dependent on both that and The Hobbit production for its existence.</p>
<p>Consequently I have decided that I will only support the film projects of individuals involved in these productions if they demonstrate to me sufficient appreciation for the intellectual property that was drawn on for these productions. And for me the benchmark that has been set for that is that shown to me by a prominent New Zealand Maori writer, some of whose works have been turned into films, who supported the teaching of Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at the New Zealand university that he used to work for. He also left me with the impression that the term ‘Middle-earth’ should not be used as a means for cultural groups to promote their culture to gain tourist dollars without acknowledging the culture that Middle-earth comes from as Tolkien acknowledged and intended it, who said Middle-earth was a use of the Middle English middel-erde, which derived from the Old English Middangeard and is thus related to the Old Icelandic Midgard.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, universities have had to cut their Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic courses even when they have had a reasonable number of students doing them due to a reallocation of university funding from a government who has used The Hobbit production so far for political gain. And I think that this is abysmal given the free promotion that The Lord of the Rings movies got from the New Zealand experts in these specialities through public lectures that they delivered like other experts in the specialities in other places in the world on the release of each movie, which if it had of been picked up on by The Hobbit production might have meant that the media surrounding the movies would have been less focussed on the apparent lack of material in the first Hobbit movie and the technology used, which not all the movie viewers were happy with.</p>
<p><strong>The actual legacy in New Zealand</strong></p>
<p>Also, for the New Zealand world premiere of the first Hobbit movie such experts could have highlighted how it was part of New Zealand’s culture and heritage that our education system produced Kenneth Sisam, a graduate of both Auckland and Oxford Universities, who was Tolkien’s New Zealand born tutor when Tolkien first started learning these specialities. Sisam introduced texts to Tolkien that Tolkien said that he had previously never heard of before, which included the Old English poem Crist, which had words in it translated as: ‘Hail Earendil, brightest of angels/ above the middle-earth sent unto men’. This led to the first draft of the poem of Earendil the mariner that Bilbo sings in Rivendell the night before the Council of Elrond in The Lord of the Rings, which, in turn, Tolkien wrote after his first year of having Sisam as his first tutor, which was the beginning point of his legendarium.</p>
<p>In addition, these New Zealand specialists could have also highlighted how Tolkien alluded in his valedictory address, when retiring from being Professor of English language and literature, to the contribution that New Zealanders (and Australians) made to the Oxford School of English and the close contest which he had with Sisam for Professor of Anglo Saxon. The latter was also referred to in an interview just before the first Lord of the Rings movie’s release with an English born former lecturer in the speciality at a New Zealand university who was at Oxford when Tolkien was Professor there at the time the book was published who said that most undergraduates thought that Sisam should have been Professor.</p>
<p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p>
<p>This lecturer also told my classmates and me that the undergraduates at Oxford formed the basis for the Hobbits in Tolkien’s legendarium, them being derived from the undergraduates living in study groups with a tutor and a servant called a scout who looked after their personal needs assigned to each group. That is, Frodo Baggins and his cousins were based on the undergraduates, Bilbo Baggins on the tutor and Samwise Gamgee on the scout. And hence, whereas The Hobbit was something derived by Tolkien from his telling of stories to his children based on his academia, The Lord of the Rings was derived from his actual teaching of that academia. And I experienced an evolved version of that at university from a former PhD graduate of Oxford who got some of her Bilbos to teach Sams like me our letters like Bilbo does for Sam in the book. And according to one of those Bilbos my classmates and I are the envy of many who learn these letters around the world for having had this lecturer as a teacher, which is a sure foot in the door for any of her Frodos into universities such as Oxford and Cambridge. And it is such legacies that Christopher and Priscilla Tolkien are concerned with protecting knowing full well that without it their father’s legendarium would not even exist.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong>Brian lives in Wellington New Zealand on the main drag to both Victoria University where he was he was taught Old and Middle English and Old Icelandic at undergraduate level by an Oxford University PhD graduate and the Embassy Theatre where the red carpet rolled out for all New Zealand premieres for The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit movies. He goes under the pen name of Brian Boru, which refers to his family descent from a famous Gaelic warrior-king of a millenium ago called Brian Boroimhe who is part of a Gaelic literary canon that he also wants to study.</strong></p>
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		<title>Why Tauriel?</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/30/76128-why-tauriel/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/30/76128-why-tauriel/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>newsfrombree</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Characters]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[tauriel]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In this thought piece, our newest feature writer Noah Smith outlines some of his hopes and concerns regarding the character Tauriel, and how in her best moments he hopes she&#8217;ll prove a tribute to some of most Tolkien&#8217;s vibrant heroines. NO two Tolkien fans are the same. Yes, we harbor a deep and abiding love [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/FL-The-Hobbit-Desolation-of-Smaug_1224x760-300x186.jpg" alt="Tauriel" width="300" height="186" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-72696" /> In this thought piece, our newest feature writer Noah Smith outlines some of his hopes and concerns regarding the character Tauriel, and how in her best moments he hopes she&#8217;ll prove a tribute to some of most Tolkien&#8217;s vibrant heroines.</p>
<hr />
<p>NO two Tolkien fans are the same. Yes, we harbor a deep and abiding love for all things Middle-earth, but (I like to believe) our tastes differ, even if only in the minutia. Some may enjoy the philological phantasmagoria that permeates Tolkien&#8217;s works, while others draw inspiration from the detailed locations and their histories. Personally, I have a thing for maps. However with the recent addition of Tauriel to the Middle-earth mythos, my thoughts have been drawn to the characters that inhabit our collective imagination and, more specifically, those of the female gender. </p>
<p>Tolkien, unlike many other fantasy writers of the twentieth century, was entirely willing to create strong, vividly imagined female characters. One that immediately comes to mind is Lúthien Tinúviel, who was so prominent in Tolkien&#8217;s world that she is not only mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, but is also a major character in The Silmarillion and even features in the epic poem The Lay of Leithian. </p>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/luthien-by-alan-lee-188x300.jpg" alt="Luthien Tinuviel by Alan Lee." width="188" height="300" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-70938" /> The latter work, which Tolkien never completed, chronicles the love between Beren and Lúthien. Another well-known character from the Legendarium is Elwing the White*, mother of Elrond and Elros. How prominent was she? After several unsuccessful attempts by Eärendil the Mariner to try and sail to Valinor, Middle-earth’s most-renowned seaman was only successful after Elwing joined him on Vingilot.</p>
<p>The two most well-known heroines, thanks in no part to the films, are of course Arwen and Éowyn. Yes, Arwen&#8217;s romance with Aragorn did seem a tad campy on the big screen (in a beautiful, melancholic fashion that truly added to the story), but let&#8217;s not forget: this is the same elf who faced down the Nine (even if it didn&#8217;t happen in the books) and single-handedly saved Frodo from certain death. And Éowyn&#8217;s fantastic line, &#8220;I am no man!&#8221; when taunted by the Witch-king? It still raises the hairs on the back of my neck. So good. Also, I would be remiss to neglect Galadriel, of Lothlórien. Not only is she a Ring-bearer of immense power, but she also sits upon the predominantly male (even if the Mair aren&#8217;t technically Men) White Council. </p>
<p>So, where does this leave us? Ah, yes: Tauriel. As a Tolkien fan, I&#8217;m ecstatic to see a fresh addition to the lore. As someone who considers himself to be rather versed in the ways of the entertainment industry, I see it as a shameless attempt to attract the ever-elusive demographic of young women (insert Orlando Bloom joke here) and adolescent males (insert scantily clad bikini picture here). Honestly? If she&#8217;s anything more than a Disney princess in elf ears, I&#8217;ll be satisfied. </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m trying to say, in a less cynical fashion, is that I trust Peter and Fran, I really do. But I&#8217;m also aware of the climate in which they have to operate. Big money means a big emphasis on making a big profit, and a necessary part of show business is trying to target as many demographics as possible. Time and time again, we see corporations put pressure on directors and writers to change their movies in ways that reach a larger audience, but harm the overarching narrative. </p>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Leggy-Tauriel-300x126.jpg" alt="Leggy Tauriel" width="300" height="126" class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-73941" /> Will Evangeline Lilly be fantastic? I&#8217;m sure she will. Will her and Orlando&#8217;s on-screen chemistry, and indeed their very presence, contribute to the overall narrative of the trilogy? I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;ll make it work. Is it necessary? I remain to be convinced, largely because I&#8217;ve seen how sterile and bureaucratic the industry can be. </p>
<p>In the best of all possible worlds, I see Tauriel as the embodiment of the inner strength and outward beauty of all the aforementioned characters. Why Tauriel? Because The Lord of Rings trilogy had its strong female protagonists, as did the Silmarillion and the Legendarium before it. Therefore, in the spirit of a more diverse, modern telling of The Hobbit, I see it as only natural that Jackson and company would want to introduce a fresh female character. In truth, the only part of me that is uneasy is the fervently cynical, text-obsessed fanboy who&#8217;s shaking the bars of his cage and muttering, &#8220;but she&#8217;s not in the book!&#8221; </p>
<p>Until more elements of the plot are revealed, Tauriel remains a positive yet potentially unnecessary addition to Peter Jackson&#8217;s cinematic vision. In the end it all boils down to the spirit in which these changes are made to the source material. Who knows? I could be completely off the mark. When it comes to the Hobbit films I&#8217;ve yet to be disappointed. </p>
<p>In Jackson we trust.</p>
<p><b>* Bootnote.</b> Most would automatically think of Aredhel with the appellation “the White”. However, there is one single reference that seems to indicate that the label also applied to Elwing. It’s from The Fellowship of the Ring where Aragorn is speaking to the four hobbits of Beren and Lúthien. As it’s direct speech, it does seem to be part of an oral tradition of either the Dunedain, or of the Noldor (or both). The quote in full: &#8220;For of Beren and Lúthien was born Dior Thingol&#8217;s heir; and of him Elwing the White whom Eärendil wedded, he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of Eärendil came the Kings of Númenor, that is Westernesse.&#8221; A Knife in the Dark, The Fellowship of the Ring.</p>
<p><b>Noah Smith is a freelance writer operating out of the woods of Pennsylvania, though he leaves often and for great lengths of time. The proud owner of more pet projects than any sane person deserves, he peddles his craft in various portions of the internet and local collegiate magazines, writing poetry, commentary, speculative fiction and erroneous remarks in the comment sections of videos. He writes on a blog called <a href="http://www.utumbria.blogspot.com.au/">Utumbria</a> and can also be found on <a href="https://twitter.com/NoahJAS">Twitter</a>. His opinions do not necessarily reflect those of TheOneRing.net or its staff.</b> </p>
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		<title>The AUJ SEE: Stop version madness and menu cheapness!</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/28/76118-the-auj-see-stop-version-madness-and-menu-cheapness/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/28/76118-the-auj-see-stop-version-madness-and-menu-cheapness/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>newsfrombree</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blu-Ray]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The extended edition for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is, by now, well on the way. In this opinion piece, Ringer TheHutt offers his thoughts on how why the designers and creators at Warner Bros. should be taking their cues from the acclaimed success of The Lord of the Rings EEs, and not from the [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/33d40fa36c15-300x168.jpg" alt="The Hobbit AUJ disc menu (non-US)" width="300" height="168" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-76121" /> The extended edition for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is, by now, well on the way. In this opinion piece, Ringer TheHutt offers his thoughts on how why the designers and creators at Warner Bros. should be taking their cues from the acclaimed success of The Lord of the Rings EEs, and not from the styling applied to AUJ&#8217;s theatrical edition.</p>
<hr />
<p>WITH the theatrical home video release of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey the audiences witnessed something unique. Whereas usually a title gets released with a similar cover design throughout the world, the amount of different cover artworks, package types and release dates for TH:AUJ was overwhelming and distracting. The release date was somewhere between March (USA) and May (Australia, NZ) &#8212; more than a month&#8217;s span! Also, almost each country had its own cover artwork as well as additional editions (four steelbook editions in France alone!). <span id="more-76118"></span></p>
<p>Despite this diversity of packaging, the release per-se made a rather cheap impression. The menu was just some uninspired collage with static subscreens, as opposed to the excellent LOTR TE DVD menus. Menus on non-US-releases were even worse: they had purple all-purpose buttons and Arial font on the menu points overlayed. The disc labels were simple black for the most countries AUJ was released in. </p>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/a10ad4081453-300x168.jpg" alt="The FOTR TE DVD menu" width="300" height="168" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-76122" />  As far as the SEE is concerned, we already have an announcement for a UK steelbook box, which for me is a clear hint that Warner Bros. still has no idea how to market this film, and is likely to continue the same approach with a multitude of different editions, packagings etc. </p>
<p>If you remember the theatrical DVDs for The Lord of the Rings, they all were quite similar in design. Also, they were released on a single day worldwide, even though the release was handled by many small release independent companies (as opposed to Warner Bros. who owns The Hobbit almost worldwide). They also had all the same menu designs. </p>
<p>As I think, the basic idea behind the menu and package design of LOTR TE / LOTR SEE on DVD was to give the audience a feeling of an &#8220;exquisite framing&#8221; for the content by assessing what the makers of the discs would like to see themselves. For instance, animated menus can be very annoying if you have to navigate through several screens of them, and have overlong transitions between these screens. On LOTR the transitions are still there but they are meticulously timed to be not intrusive. And the menus are done in such a stylish and elegant way that it is a joy just watching them. </p>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/8aadf7159f70-300x168.jpg" alt="LOTR SEE menu" width="300" height="168" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-76120" /> Also, considering the package design: if anyone still owns the LOTR SEE DVD (as I do) &#8212; they are still a pleasure to hold in the hand, a truly elegant design made for collectors. (There was some difference between the normal SEE editions and giftset SEE editions in Europe where the normal SEE was made of thinner cardboard &#8212; however, the design and the gold lettering were still the same). And the SEE is, in fact, targeted at collectors as opposed to the majority who is just happy with the TE. </p>
<p>What I suggest: </p>
<p>There should be just one great design for the SEE, like it was the case with the LOTR SEE DVD editions. Or two variations of this design &#8212; for there should be a LOTR-like giftset as well. One which would deserve this name. </p>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/f21cd1388762-300x168.jpg" alt="LOTR SEE DVD menu design" width="300" height="168" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-76123" /> This package design should mirror the design of the available LOTR SEE DVDs (not the BluRays, mind you &#8211; they suck in comparison). </p>
<p>The menus should reflect the same approach the LOTR SEEs used to have. Michael Pellerin is already involved in the documentaries &#8212; let him do the production for the SEE as well! The menus of the LOTR SEE DVDs were state of the art in terms of elegance, the amount of thought put into programming and the structuring of the bonus features. Although animated, the menus were never annoying. </p>
<p>Also, there should be no qualitative difference between English-language menus and non-English menus &#8212; that&#8217;s cheap. </p>
<p>By doing this, Warner Bros. would show:<br />
* That the label actually knows what it does when it tries to market The Hobbit;<br />
* That it recognizes that the target area for the SEE are collectors who mind such aspects;<br />
* That it cares about giving the target audience what it wants: excellent content put into an exquisite framing;<br />
* That the label releasing the SEE is not cheap. </p>
<p><b>TheHutt runs the Russian language LOTR and Hobbit site <a href="http://Henneth-Annun.ru">Henneth-Annun.ru</a>. His opinions do not necessarily constitute those of TheOneRing.net or its staff.</b></p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: the hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/28/76140-hall-of-fire-chat-log-the-hero-and-the-heroic-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jul 2013 13:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Fellowship of the Ring]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[pippin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sam]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Saruman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theoden]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend in The Hall of Fire, we discussed sources of heroism in The Lord of the Rings. Who acts heroically, and what is it that makes them heroic anyway? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder, next weekend (Saturday August 3 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">The Hall of Fire</a>, we discussed sources of heroism in The Lord of the  Rings. Who acts heroically, and what is it that makes them heroic anyway? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.</p>
<p>And a reminder, next weekend (Saturday August 3 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter in our read-through of The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter XI: The Palantir.  It&#8217;s the final chapter of Book III, so don&#8217;t miss it!<span id="more-76140"></span></p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: the Voice of Saruman</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/20/75788-hall-of-fire-chat-log-the-voice-of-saruman/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jul 2013 11:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Two Towers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gandalf]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[library]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=75788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend in The Hall of Fire, we delved into the events of The Voice of Saruman the second last chapter of Book III of The Lord of the Rings. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And remember, tomorrow (July 20 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the Hero and [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend in The Hall of Fire, we delved into the events of The Voice of Saruman the second last chapter of Book III of The Lord of the Rings. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.</p>
<p>And remember, tomorrow (July 20 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the Hero and the Heroic in The Lord of the Rings.<span id="more-75788"></span></p>
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		<title>Six overlooked yet important characters from The Lord of the Rings</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/13/75554-six-overlooked-yet-important-characters-from-the-lord-of-the-rings/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Fellowship of the Ring]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[J.R.R. Tolkien]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[The key players in The Lord of the Rings are probably some of the most-written about characters in literature. Everyone loves the leading lights such as Frodo, Aragorn, Sam and Gandalf. Yet there are a number of minor (some even without a name!) characters who either serve an important purpose, give us a great deal [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key players in The Lord of the Rings are probably some of the most-written about characters in literature. Everyone loves the leading lights such as Frodo, Aragorn, Sam and Gandalf. </p>
<p>Yet there are a number of minor (some even without a name!) characters who either serve an important purpose, give us a great deal of food for thought, or even go against established yet hard-to-overcome stereotypes about the content of Tolkien&#8217;s writing.</p>
<p>In no particular order, here are my leading six.<span id="more-75554"></span></p>
<h3>1) Sam&#8217;s dead Southron warrior.</h3>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/oliphaunt-300x210.jpg" alt="Oliphaunt by Ted Nasmith" width="300" height="210" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-75563" /><br />
<blockquote>&#8220;&#8230;suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.&#8221; <br /><i>Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, The Lord of the Rings.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>A common criticism of Tolkien is that evil is evil and good is good and ne&#8217;er the twain shall meet. The bad guys only exist to be Othered&#8230; and then gloriously hacked to death. Yet Sam&#8217;s thoughts on the dead Southron are a direct repudiation of this view. </p>
<p>Sam wonders at the man&#8217;s name, where he came from. The questions run thick and fast. Was he was really a bad man? Was he deceived into serving Sauron to march far from his home to die fruitlessly in the woods of Ithilien? Would he really rather have stayed there in peace? </p>
<p>The narrator gives no answers, but the questions in themselves are a powerful reminder that conflict cannot be easily reduced to &#8220;us&#8221; and &#8220;enemy&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was Sam&#8217;s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much.&#8221; </p>
<p>Considering Sam, of all the hobbits, is our perspective character &#8212; the &#8220;Everyman&#8221; &#8212; it&#8217;s more important than you might think. Pippin has similarly uneasy thoughts as he watches Saruman&#8217;s forces march away south to Helm&#8217;s Deep from Isengard.</p>
<h3>2) Ghân-buri-Ghân</h3>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ghan-300x227.jpg" alt="ghan-buri-ghan" width="300" height="227" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-75560" /><br />
<blockquote>&#8220;There sat Théoden and Éomer, and before them on the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and the hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss. He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist.&#8221; <br /><i>The Ride of the Rohirrim, The Lord of the Rings.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Another misunderstood criticism: evil is always ugly, and those on the side of good are strikingly handsome. Enter the Woses of Drúadan Forest. The descendents of the solitary and tribal Drúedain folk who fought in the First Age against Morgoth, and abandoned Numenor long before its destruction, there&#8217;s nothing pretty about the Wild Men of the Woods. Yet, they assist the Rohirrim to reach the Pelennor in time to save the folk of Gondor.</p>
<p>Of course there are other examples. Most prominently, Sauron assumed a fair form to deceive the elves of Eregion and start the chain of events that leads to the forging of the One Ring. </p>
<p>Icing on the cake, the Woses use poison arrows, and the Marshal of the Mark Elfhelm seems to imply that they&#8217;ve even been used on the Rohirrim. If the good folks never resort to foul means to win, the Woses don&#8217;t seem to have got the message.</p>
<h3>3) Lúthien Tinúviel</h3>
<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/luthien-by-alan-lee-188x300.jpg" alt="Luthien Tinuviel by Alan Lee." width="188" height="300" class="alignright size-medium wp-image-70938" /><br />
<blockquote>&#8220;Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father.&#8221; <br /><i>A Knife in the Dark, The Lord of the Rings.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Lúthien doesn&#8217;t even directly enter the events of The Lord of the Rings, yet her influence is felt throughout the tale.</p>
<p>Her example, and that of Beren, inspires Frodo to resist the commands of the Nazgúl at the Ford of Bruinen. Her arts of healing &#8212; more than once she saved Beren from death&#8217;s door &#8212; are in a smaller measure seen in her descendents Elrond and Aragorn. And as Sam observes just before he and Frodo enter Torech Ungol, the light of the Silmaril she helps Beren recapture is in the Phial of Galadriel that later proves so vital in keeping hope alive for the Quest.</p>
<p>And make no mistake, Beren could not have wrested the Silmaril from Morgoth alone. Lúthien plays an equal part &#8212; probably the key role in my opinion &#8212; in the success of that particular quest.</p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: the stewards of Middle-earth</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/13/75595-hall-of-fire-chat-log-the-stewards-of-middle-earth/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Book]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Two Towers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Denethor]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[tom bombadil]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[treebeard]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=75595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf&#8217;s famous &#8220;For I also am a steward&#8221; rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter of [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf&#8217;s famous &#8220;For I also am a steward&#8221; rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. </p>
<p>And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.<span id="more-75595"></span></p>
<hr />
<b>Session Start: Sun Jul 07 07:24:00 2013</b><br />
<b>Session Ident: #thehalloffire</b><br />
 * Demosthenes changes topic to &#8216;The HOF topic today: the stewards of middle-earth. | General TORn chat thataway! click &#8211;] #theonering.net&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Okay. Let&#8217;s maybe get this show on the road?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] But that doesn&#8217;t make them stewards, Erkenbrand.<br />
 [Puma] the valar and even eru are very present in lotr&#8230;.and sil of course<br />
 [Erkenbrand] the ainur are more detached and influence middle earth indirectly<br />
 [Gondhir] also&#8230; Frodo didn&#8217;t have a direct influence for good?<br />
 [Puma] no they dont<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. You know the Istari ARE Ainur, right?<br />
 [Puma] for instance&#8230;..how did faramir many times.and bormoir once get the dream<br />
 [Demosthenes] Stewards of Middle-earth. Who? What? Why?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Many characters seem to fill the role of stewards in Tolkien&#8217;s Middle-earth. Some are obvious: rulers such as Denethor and Theoden, members of the council of the wise like Elrond and Garadriel, the Istari and the Valar.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Treebeard, and even Tom Bombadil and the Entwives can also be examined in the same light. Others such as Samwise and Eowyn are more subtly portrayed.<br />
 [Demosthenes] But what are the defining traits of a steward in Tolkien&#8217;s milieu?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] the istari are maiar<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, I think we should first define &#8220;steward.&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] Sam is an ACTUAL steward, I&#8217;d stay<br />
 [Erkenbrand] and I am classing the istari separately<br />
 [Demosthenes] I agree.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. Yes. And the Valar and the Maiar together are the Ainur..<br />
 [Gondhir] like&#8230; he serves food etc.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Frodo didn&#8217;t steward much apart from the Ring. And perhaps the Shire, indirectly.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And Gollum, one could argue<br />
 [Demosthenes] What is a steward, here?<br />
 [Puma] the dreams came from ulmo who has a history of sending dreams.that is direct influence<br />
 [ChristineGolden] A steward is someone entrusted by a higher power to carry out their orders.<br />
 [Gondhir] right<br />
 [Gondhir] a vicar, as it were<br />
 [Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. So practically the Istari?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I would say a steward was someone entrusted to protect or oversee something.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Can a steward be self-appointed?<br />
 [Puma] and ulmo of all the valar.always did his best to look after middle earth<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think anyone appointed Treebeard to anything<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t think so, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] He sort of took on that role because he was him<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Who do you think would be the steward of Gondor in the forth age?<br />
 [sauronswife] Faramir&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes]  &#8220;But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish,<br />
 [Puma] faramir at the start<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] One could argue Tom Bombadil was the steward of his little bit of earth. Certainly nobody appointed him<br />
 [Ringlordsander] But, if you define a steward as someone &#8216;entrusted by a highter power to carry out their orders&#8217;. You could argue that almost everyone in ME is a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit<br />
 [Puma] then his son elboron<br />
 [Demosthenes] and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know??<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Would there be any more kings after aragorn?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gandalf doesn&#8217;t mention anything about being appointed to be one.<br />
 [Gondhir] I think a steward has to be working FOR SOMEONE<br />
 [miriel] good point jennie<br />
 [ChristineGolden] We don&#8217;t know that, Jennie, mainly because we don&#8217;t know who or what Bombadil really was.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Even if that someone is oneself?<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: Gandalf doesn&#8217;t mention it, but he was, in fact, appointed by the Valar<br />
 [Puma] well.the ainur work for eru<br />
 [miriel] would we find a steward in the Shire, do you say?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I suppose. He didn&#8217;t seem to feel very subservient to anyone<br />
 [Demosthenes] miriel: the mayor? the thain?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sam is a steward in the shire<br />
 [Gondhir] the Thain is arguably the &#8220;steward&#8221; of the King of Arnor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Several people steward the Shire<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Even the rangers<br />
 [Puma] sam became a steward of the shire after the war<br />
 [Gondhir] the King then&#8230; disappeared<br />
 [Gondhir] just as there ceased to be a King of Gondor<br />
 [Gondhir] but the Stewards of Gondor continued on<br />
 [Darkover] mae govannen, all!<br />
 [Demosthenes] gond: but &#8230; positions of feudal power are usually initially acquired by force.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover<br />
 [Puma] gday Darkover<br />
 [sauronswife] Evening Darkover.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which is &#8230; well &#8230; self-appointment.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] yes<br />
 [Goldberry] hey darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Grima Wormtongue was a steward.<br />
 [Puma] jrr specifically said middle earth was not feudal<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Grima was a steward<br />
 [miriel] the thain dies sound more like a steward than the mayor. Was there not a point where there was talk that if there was a rightful leader of the shire, it would be him?<br />
 [Darkover] Was Wormtongue a steward, or an advisor, Chris?<br />
 [Ringlordsander] But almost everyone is someone appointed by someone else&#8230; So could we argue that basically everyone in Middle-Earth is a steward?<br />
 [Demosthenes] puma: heredirtary (and classist) power structures then.<br />
 [Goldberry] where did he say that Puma?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] can a steward be a steward if they are working for an evil power?<br />
 [Darkover] There was, Miriel, when the &#8220;Chief&#8221; Lotho began challenging the Tooks<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He ran Rohan in Theoden&#8217;s name until Gandalf did his exorcism thing.<br />
 [Gondhir] actually&#8230; Grima may have been acting as Theoden&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not a very responsible steward<br />
 [Gondhir] depends on to what extent he was actually &#8220;running&#8217; Rohan<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Saruman was arguably a very irresponsible steward of Isengard<br />
 [Gondhir] in the movie, he clearly IS directly running it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Btw, hi, Darkover, didn&#8217;t see ya slip in.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Gondhir] not so clear in the book<br />
 [Puma] from 3014 on grima was a steward of theoden<br />
 [miriel] thanks Darkover, that was the thing I was remembering<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What became of Orthanc after the Fall of saruman?<br />
 [Darkover] I doubt if evil Stewards can exist, Erkenbrand, because Sauron and other baddies don&#8217;t trust underlings enough to give them any great power in their own right.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Duno<br />
 [Puma] aragorn reclaimed it<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Of course &#8220;evil&#8221; steward exist<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] did anyone settle in it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Denethor was hardly a force for good, and he was definitely a steward.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Presumably the pits were filled in<br />
 [Gondhir] you don&#8217;t think Sauron entrusted anything to underlings?<br />
 [sauronswife] I&#8217;m iffy on &#8220;evil stewards&#8230;&#8221; I need a LONG think on that.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] So Frodo was a steward as well? He did lord Elrond&#8217;s will by taking the Ring to Mordor&#8230;<br />
 [Gondhir] he didn&#8217;t DIRECTLY control everything<br />
 [Puma] Denethor was a force for good!!!!!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] How could Frodo be a steward?<br />
 [lunarising] could the witch king be considered a &#8216;steward&#8217; of Minas Morgul?<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Was he given the keys and it was left empty?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] saruman has some trust in grima and sauron has trust in gothmog and the witchking (who in turn trust kahmul)<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Frodo was a steward<br />
 [Gondhir] he wasn&#8217;t &#8220;working for&#8221; anyone in particular<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;d say he did the Council of Elrond&#8217;s will, but yeah, he stewarded the Ring on its way to Mt. Doom<br />
 [Gondhir] he certainly wasn&#8217;t Elrond&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Darkover] Chris, I don&#8217;t believe that is fair. Denethor protected Gondor for a long time. He may not have been charming about it, but that doesn&#8217;t lessen the rightness of his cause.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Or carrying out the commands of a higher being.<br />
 [Gondhir] &#8220;doing a good thing&#8221; does not mean that one is a steward<br />
 [Puma] frodo volunteered&#8230;.elrond said he thought the choice was right<br />
 [Gondhir] any more than &#8220;doing a bad thing&#8221; means that one is not<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He became corrupted, Darkover, like Boromir.<br />
 [Darkover] Gondhir, I didn&#8217;t say Sauron didn&#8217;t trust *anything* to underlings&#8211;clearly he did&#8211;but he would not have allowed one so powerful as a &#8220;steward&#8221; to exist, else that steward might become a rival someday.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Depends on what he did, lunarising. Sitting in a chair twirling an imaginary moustache isn&#8217;t really stewarding<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Puma. But it was lord Elrond&#8217;s will. And Frodo carried it out.. So that&#8217;d make Frodo a sterward by the definition we just made up..<br />
 [Demosthenes] Must a steward be powerful, darkover?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] denathor did both protect gondor and try to repel sauron but is was more for selfish motives<br />
 [Darkover] At the end, Chris, maybe so. But that was a personal failing on his part, it didn&#8217;t diminish the rightness of Denethor&#8217;s cause.<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Well what would saruman do with the ring if he attained it before sauron?<br />
 [Puma] i dont see Denethor as selfish<br />
 [Demosthenes] There has to be some element of responsibility. Otherwise there is no stewarding,<br />
 [Darkover] Demosthenes, yes, a Steward must have some power, else he is just a Steward in his own mind only.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Then I disagree with the made-up definition, Ringlordsander.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;m sure Denethor had many other duties in which he protected the welfare of Gondor.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] We just don&#8217;t hear of the day-to-day<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, what you just said. Sorry, I can&#8217;t reply to all these threads fast enough1<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sam does not have lots of power, just respect yet almost all of us agree that he was a steward<br />
 [Darkover] !<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Dol Guldor was being run by Khamul, one of the Nazgul<br />
 [Demosthenes] darkover: No that&#8217;s ok!<br />
 [Puma] Denethor had minas tirith very well prepared for the war.or at least as much as he could have<br />
 [Darkover] Thank  you, Demosthenes<br />
 [Demetria] Denethor was steward by birthright, and did his best to protect Gondor, however it did go to his head<br />
 [Darkover] Right, I agree with Puma&#8217;s comment about Denethor<br />
 [Gondhir] the WK ran Angmar and most (or at least a great deal) of Eregion<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I believe Sam was a steward only when he became mayor (?) of the Shire.<br />
 [Darkover] Erkenbrand, how was Sam a steward, unless you&#8217;re talking about his years as Mayor of the Shire?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think the corruption by Sauron was subtle and slow, but that he otherwise was a responsible Steward. Until the end.<br />
 [Xanaseb] hi hi people<br />
 [Gondhir] the book implies that the Mouth of Sauron is going to be appointed Warden of the West (or somesuch) in the event that the Gondorians et al surrender (or are crushed)<br />
 [Puma] i agree jennie.but b4 that also.when he spread the dust from the box.and planted the mallorn<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he practicaly rebuilt the shire<br />
 [Demetria] Sam became steward of the books given to him by Frodo, which was the history of the ring<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was a steward for good but after Boromir&#8217;s death he was really hit emotionally and could not act to his fullest<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: Aragorn did say (and we discussed this last week) that Saruman was &#8220;once wise and subtle&#8221;<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he also allowed Frodo to finish his task<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The only Denethor I &#8220;know&#8221; is the one revealed in the book and he wasn&#8217;t what I&#8217;d call a good person, let alone good steward.<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was not an evil steward<br />
 [Darkover] Ok, Sam became Steward of the books, and he became mayor, but that was all post-Ring War<br />
 [Gondhir] being a BAD steward also doesn&#8217;t mean that one is not a steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Right. Once upon a time, he was a friend to the trees, according to Fangorn<br />
 [Puma] Denethor did act to his fullest&#8230;..but gave in to despair when he saw what was in cirith ungol<br />
 [Darkover] Chris, IMO Denethor was a good person&#8211;until his bizarre, self-inflicted end&#8211;he just wasn&#8217;t a very *nice* person. There is a difference.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] are we talking stewards during, before or after the war of the ring? or just stewards throughout?<br />
 [Puma] i agree Darkover<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I think Sauron made him despair, but yeah.<br />
 [Darkover] Thanks, Puma<br />
 [Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: in general, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think throughout, Erkenbrand<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If so, Darkover, then why did Gandalf warn Pippin before they first appeared before Denethor in Minas Tirith?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] So<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sam counts<br />
 [Gondhir] I think Denethor didn&#8217;t really &#8220;give up&#8221; until after Faramir died and he saw the massive forces marshaling against Gondor<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, knowing this discussion, Erkenbrand, probably all of them.<br />
 [Gondhir] and decided that at best, he could prolong Gondor&#8217;s demise<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It was a slow self-inflicted end, which Gandalf had seen coming<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What about Rohan?<br />
 [Gondhir] and that he might as well get it over with<br />
 [Puma] as for stewards of gondor&#8230;&#8230;.i would consider Cirion a steward of middle earth also&#8230;.by giving calenardhon to the eotheod&#8230;he strengthened the world he knew<br />
 [Demosthenes] It is arguable that, in the end, Denethor surrendered his stewardship (if not his Stewardship).<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Rohan after the WOTR<br />
 [Erkenbrand] my opinion is that denethor gave up after boromir died? does anyone know roughly when he started looking into the palanti?<br />
 [Darkover] Because Denethor tended to assume people were trying to keep things from him, plus he had never much trusted Gandalf anyway, and yet here was this hobbit being brought to Minas Tirith by the very wizard Denethor regarded as an untrustworthy busybody. Gandalf was essentially telling Pippin to watch his mouth, and not talk too much about Aragorn.<br />
 [Gondhir] Erkenbrand: Denethor started looking in the palantir long before that.<br />
 [Puma] he looked into the palantiri soon ofater ecthelion died<br />
 [Erkenbrand] any idea when?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which is actually different to What Saruman (and Sauron) do as powers in the world.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think he&#8217;d been looking for a long while. Sauron was only gradually infecting him with darkness and despair<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, Denethor was not to be trusted.<br />
 [Demosthenes] They take different paths.<br />
 [Darkover] I think Denethor had begun palantir-gazing before that, but the death of Boromir sapped a lot of his spirit.<br />
 [Demetria] yes it did<br />
 [Puma] notice.denethor did not give into sauron as saruman did<br />
 [Erkenbrand] would anyone class faramir as a steward?<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Yes<br />
 [Darkover] I would&#8211;Faramir was the last ruling steward.<br />
 [lunarising] I would<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He was a steward, small and large S.<br />
 [Gondhir] Faramir was an actual Steward of Gondor<br />
 [Puma] faramir became one.to rebuild ithilien<br />
 [Darkover] Ooh, I like that, Chris <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Puma: If he had, he would have become more like Saruman. More authoritarian. And that&#8217;s the nasty flipside of a stewarship.<br />
 [Demetria] yes he was, and give a relm of his own as well<br />
 [Demosthenes] Great power can turn you into an authoritarian lunatic.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] His father gave him Ithilien to safeguard, and then he became Steward of Gondor until Aragorn was crowned.<br />
 [Puma] Denethor was a politician at heart.that was his weakness<br />
 [Darkover] And he was still Steward after Aragorn was crowned, by Aragorn&#8217;s decree, only he was no longer full ruler of Gondor&#8211;the King was<br />
 [Demetria] Aragorn gave him Ithilien after he was crowned<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Somebody&#8217;s got to arrange for garbage pickup<br />
 [Erkenbrand] can anyone think of a dwarf who could be a &#8220;Steward&#8221;?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, not offhand.<br />
 [Darkover] It strikes me that a lot of you people are really harsh towards Denethor. As Jennie just said, someone has to arrange for garbage pickup, so to speak.<br />
 [Demetria] Thorin<br />
 [sauronswife] Not sure Gimli would count but beyond him no other Dwarves come to mind.<br />
 [Darkover] I wouldn&#8217;t consider Gimli a steward.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I have a question: How does this contrast with the attitude that the Valar show over the millenia toward Middle-earth. Ultimately they are THE stewards. But their stewardship seems to become lighter and lighter as time goes on.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Darkover, I believe that a person must have a &#8220;bad seed,<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t mean Denethor, Darkover. I meant somebody&#8217;s got to deal with the day-to-day running of things, even after there&#8217;s a king on the throne.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] To make the big decisions<br />
 [ChristineGolden] oops, the ability to be corrupted inside them or they won&#8217;t be.<br />
 [sauronswife] There&#8217;s a GOOD reason the Valar have stepped back, and even stepped back even more. I wish it wasn&#8217;t so&#8230;. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Maybe, Demosthenes, because the Valar began to notice that while their intentions were always good, the results of their interference seldom were.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] One could argue Thror had stewarded Erebor. Until Smaug came.<br />
 [lunarising] weren&#8217;t they appointed &#8216;stewards&#8217; until the Children came?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But, not as anyone&#8217;s subordinate<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I think that the valar tried to get the people of middle earth to &#8220;Steward&#8221; themselves with only a little help, (the Istari) and so slowly pulled out over the centuaries<br />
 [Demosthenes] darkover: As stewards they have to face the consequences of their interference.<br />
 [Puma] take a questionable steward&#8230;pelendur..his advice stopped arvedui from becoming king&#8230;&#8230;much evil might ahve been averted but for him<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think, after the War of Wrath, the Valar became hesitant to interfere directly in the affairs of ME, and so they sent the Istari.<br />
 [Darkover] Jennie, whether it is Denethor or Faramir, someone has to keep things going on a daily basis. That means you can&#8217;t always be nice and polite, especially during the years prior to the Ring War, when Gondor and Mordor were in a sort of Cold War.<br />
 [Puma] but the valar directly took part in the war of the ring<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Okay<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: does that make them good stewards, or poor ones?<br />
 [Demetria] how?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, the Valar did, but I suspect that was why their hand on M-E became lighter with time. They decided to let the younger race, Men, take over<br />
 [Erkenbrand] good stewards<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say good ones because they were able to delegate their power.<br />
 [Demosthenes] If Sauron is the example of too much control, are the Valar the example of too little?<br />
 [Darkover] Directly, Puma?<br />
 [Puma] sam called to varda&#8230;..his prayer was answered<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe. You could argue that Men could use some help. Of course, the Valar sent the Istari.<br />
 [Puma] ulmo sent dreams to faramir and boromir<br />
 [Erkenbrand] they achieved the same results but allowed the people of middle earth to come to them by themselves<br />
 [Puma] manwe sent wind at several strategic times<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If you notice in Tolkien, it&#8217;s the people who have a problem with letting go of power who end up becoming evil or corrupted.<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe the Valar continued to help, but in a more subtle way, such as dreams, eagles, etc.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Oh, yeah. Forgot about the dreams<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that&#8217;s quite true.<br />
 [Demetria] the dreams were the most influence at the time of men<br />
 [Puma] so the valar sent aid .but the people had to still help themselves<br />
 [Darkover] That isn&#8217;t necessarily a bad thing, that people help themselves.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Which is how it should be when dealing with free people, Puma.<br />
 [Puma] correct<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Free will = free choice, good or bad.<br />
 [Puma] but the valar are not absent in taking action.they did<br />
 [Darkover] Only when the odds were overwhelming, such as fighting against Morgoth or Sauron, should the Valar get involved on a large scale, IMO<br />
 [sauronswife] I have such a love/hate relationship with the free-ch9oice concept. :S<br />
 [Erkenbrand] if sa<br />
 * Baumbart (Mibbit@torn-C7CD8565.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)<br />
 [Goldberry] the valar didn&#8217;t get too involved with morgoth though<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, Sauron&#8217;s Wife woul,d<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which brings me to another thought &#8230; are the elves in a way early stewards for men? And is it their inability to surrender what is entrusted that creates a lot of problems later? (celbrimbor + rings = big mess)<br />
 [Demetria] Elrond was also a steward, he made sure the line of kings was protected in the north<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I think that people need to have free choice, even if thee choice they make is bad<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d agree on Moroth, Darkover, because he was a Vala and the people of ME could not destroy him themselves.<br />
 [Darkover] They did eventually dispatch Morgoth into the Void, Goldberry<br />
 [Puma] elrond was a steward&#8230;..of knowledge&#8230;.he kept records of the past.so other people could learn&#8230;..that had import<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Chris, that was my point<br />
 [Darkover] only you said it more succinctly<br />
 [Goldberry] eventually<br />
 [ChristineGolden] However, Sauron (who was once Morgoth&#8217;s steward) was a different matter.<br />
 [Puma] sauron was never a steward to morgoth<br />
 [Demetria] yes, and he watched over the succession in the north, for example the sword<br />
 [sauronswife] Finrod = Steward for Men. Not sure about other elves (esp Noldor) save Elrond..<br />
 [Puma] at best sauron was a top aid.morgoth shared power with none<br />
 [Darkover] Sauron wasn&#8217;t as strong, but he was still a Maia or the like. That is why the Valar still showed their concern by sending the Istari to help<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Wasn&#8217;t he Morgoth&#8217;s underling, Puma?  I seem to recall he was Morgoth&#8217;s Lieutenant.<br />
 [sauronswife] he was.<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Puma! That was the point I was trying to make earlier, about why there are no &#8220;evil&#8221; stewards as such&#8211;evildoers don&#8217;t trust their underlings, with good reason.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] most of the elves do act as Stewards to the men, that may be because they are wise enough to know that they (the elves) will not be as influential in saurons downfall<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Ok, I see what you mean, Puma: I agree<br />
 [Puma] yes.jennie.quite correct&#8230;but not a steward<br />
 [Demetria] Elrond was the only elf entrusted with the ring and sword for Gondor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sorry? Who&#8217;s not a steward?<br />
 [Darkover] Would anyone call Cirdan a steward? I would.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] does a Steward have to have power?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t consider the elves to be stewards.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t remember what I&#8217;d said. lol<br />
 [Puma] i would also Darkover.excellent point<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Erkenbrand, otherwise, what is he steward of?<br />
 [sauronswife] The evil powers do have to entrust /something/ to their underlings otherwise they&#8217;d have to do it all themselves.<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Puma<br />
 [ChristineGolden] lol, I do that, too, Jennie.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: i think we agreed that generally this is the case. There must be a resposibility over something.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I&#8217;d call Cirdan a ruler, Darkover.<br />
 [Puma] cirdan.gave narya to gandalf.as he.being the most foresighted of all in middle earth.knew gandalf would take care of middle earth<br />
 [sauronswife] A resposniblity the steward agrees to take up or one they end up with?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Sauronswife, but that doesn&#8217;t mean the main baddies are going to let their underlings have very much power. Why do you think Saruman wanted the Ring? and why do you think Sauron didn&#8217;t want him to have it?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] cirdan was given one of the elvish rings and so was sort of entrusted with stewardship&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Whether this responsibility has to be explicit or can be left implied is probably what we&#8217;re really mulling over.<br />
 [Demetria] because Sauron knew what he did do his boss<br />
 [Goldberry] was melian a steward of doriath?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially, the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one&#8217;s care<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron never betrayed Morgoth that I know<br />
 [Puma] yes<br />
 [Goldberry] she protected it<br />
 [Darkover] I don&#8217;t see why it necessarily has to be explicit, just that they have power<br />
 [Puma] good one goldberry<br />
 [Gondhir] also, I would say that no, she was not<br />
 [Darkover] No, Goldberry, I think Melian was co-ruler<br />
 [Goldberry] thanks, puma<br />
 [Gondhir] any more than Galadriel was Steward of Lothlorien<br />
 [Darkover] not the same as a steward<br />
 [sauronswife] lol Haha Demetria. I still consider Sauron has always been a steward of Morgoth&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: I tend to agree. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck &#8230; well, we can argue &#8230; but really it&#8217;s a duck.<br />
 [Demetria] no, but he had enough power and knowledge to take over where Morgoth left off<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, a steward must be delegated power by someone above him/her.<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes<br />
 [Gondhir] (I do think that Galadriel is mostly a powered-down literary clone of Melian)<br />
 * sauronswife nods to Demosthenes.<br />
 [Demosthenes] And we should just admit it.<br />
 [Puma] sauron was a piker compared to morgoth<br />
 [Puma] he never had a fraction of the power<br />
 [sauronswife] He did continue Morgoth&#8217;s destructive designs though&#8230;<br />
 [Darkover] he was still formidable enough, though, Puma<br />
 [Puma] not in the same way.sauron wanted to rule the people<br />
 [Puma] morgoth wanted them all dead<br />
 [Demetria] Sauron wanted to rule them<br />
 [Gondhir] indeed<br />
 [marco] saurons evil was more direct than morgoths, morgoths was more spreaded out<br />
 [Goldberry] morgoth wanted to corrupt and destroy ME<br />
 [Goldberry] destroy the goodness<br />
 [Gondhir] I think Morgoth originallly wanted to rule everything<br />
 [Demosthenes] To enslave them all. That&#8217;s what Gandalf says about hobbits and the shire at the beginning of LOTR.<br />
 [Puma] morgoths ring was all of arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And he liked sparklies<br />
 [Gondhir] but when he couldn&#8217;t<br />
 [Gondhir] he settled for just destroying everything<br />
 [Gondhir] &#8220;If I can&#8217;t have it, no one can&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] and by &#8220;it&#8221;, I mean EVERYTHING<br />
 [Darkover] I think both Morgoth and Sauron wanted to corrupt and destroy M-E and everything in it. The difference in them lies only in scale, not in malice.<br />
 [sauronswife] Good piont there Gondhir.<br />
 [Demosthenes] He does not need you &#8211; he has many more useful servants &#8211; but he won?t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.?<br />
 [marco] sauron was kinda or smart than morgoth in a way<br />
 [Goldberry] lol gondhir<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron didn&#8217;t want to DESTROY things<br />
 [Gondhir] he wanted to CONTROL them<br />
 [Puma] sauron&#8217;s thoughts were not all evil at 1st.they only became so later<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Gondhir, he gladly would have destroyed anyone or anything in his way<br />
 [Gondhir] well, yes<br />
 [Gondhir] he didn&#8217;t MIND destroying things<br />
 [Gondhir] but it was a means to an end<br />
 [Gondhir] for Morgoth, the destruction WAS the end<br />
 [Puma] yes Gond!!!!<br />
 [Darkover] and if the control is crushing, is there such a big difference between destruction and utter enslavement?<br />
 [Darkover] Seems to me we&#8217;re splitting hairs. Both were terrible villains.<br />
 [sauronswife] I need to reread Silm and look at this whole Morgoth-destroying-everything idea. ANd yes huge differnce between destruction and enslavement.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: you can&#8217;t rule something you&#8217;ve destroyed?<br />
 [Gondhir] no one&#8217;s saying that Sauron was GOOD<br />
 [Goldberry] true darkover<br />
 [TolkienGirl] Sauron is the Illusive Man of Middle Earth.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I wouldn&#8217;t invite either of them to a party twice.<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Jennie.<br />
 [Goldberry] lol jennie<br />
 [Gondhir] although his motives may have been good-ish in the beginning<br />
 [Erkenbrand] would anyone say that whilst theoden was unable to rule, eomer and theodred acted as stewards of rohan<br />
 [Demosthenes] You can rule an orc &#8230; but if you lop the head off an elf, it doesn&#8217;t do what you want anymore.<br />
 [Gondhir] lots of people have felt that a &#8220;strong man&#8221; in control is preferable to chaos<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sssure, Erkenbrand.<br />
 [Darkover] Not sure I would agree, Sauronswife. Anyway, both destruction and enslavement are miserable fates.<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: Yes, but a dead elf is better than a rebellious elf. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Puma] think of morgoths power.by being in the body of arda&#8230;and both elves and mens bodies came from arda&#8230;..he tainted tham all<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I&#8217;d say that Grima was Theoden&#8217;s steward, Gondhir.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] lol dems<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He had the power to issue orders; he was in charge of the King&#8217;s possessions (e.g., his sword), etc.<br />
 [Puma] grima was only theodens steward from 3014 on.when he sort of gave the orders<br />
 [marco] morgoth risked too much of his power in trying to be so powerful<br />
 [Darkover] Actually, to get back to your question, Demosthenes, I think both Morgoth and Sauron&#8211;and all their ilk&#8211;wanted to rule/dominate all life, everything, completely. But if they couldn&#8217;t do that, then they wanted it destroyed.<br />
 [Puma] b4 that just an advisor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But arguably Theodred and Eomer went riding around taking care of Rohan when nobody else was.<br />
 [Darkover] as Frodo once said, speaking of Sauron; &#8220;What does he not hate?&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Sauron ever got to the level of nihilism that Morgoth did<br />
 [Gondhir] hey may have gotten to that point in time<br />
 [Puma] yes jennie.both did it against orders<br />
 [Demosthenes] He ordered Eomer imprisoned. He was the voice of the king. Very like Mouth of Sauron, in fact.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] grima may have been a steward of Théoden, just not a steward of rohan<br />
 [Darkover] Again, Gondhir, just a matter of scale or degree, not intent.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] True, Puma, but we&#8217;re not given any details of Theoden and Theodred&#8217;s relationship and Eomer didn&#8217;t have any real power as I recall.<br />
 [Gondhir] I think it IS a matter of intent<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron intended to rule.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Was he also Saruman&#8217;s steward? Now, that&#8217;s more debatable.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] marshall of the mark?<br />
 [Gondhir] Morgoth intended to destroy<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] The question is whether Grima Wormtongue&#8217;s orders were legit, or whether Théoden&#8217;s were when he was in his depressive state<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Theoden was king; that made Grima steward of Rohan.<br />
 [Puma] the battles of the fords of isen in UT give a good account of events in rohan jennie<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he didn&#8217;t act like a steward should though<br />
 [Gondhir] being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward<br />
 [Demetria] Theoden&#8217;s mind was taken over by Sauruman, therefore Grima was actually his steward<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Like we said earlier, Erkenbrand, there&#8217;s good stewards and bad ones.<br />
 [Gondhir] Theoden&#8217;s mind was NOT taken over by Saruman in the book<br />
 [Darkover] I seem not to be making myself clear, Gondhir. My point that I&#8217;m trying to make, in my rambling way, is that both Morgoth and Sauron would have loved to dominate everything in M-E, and probably the universe.<br />
 [Puma] pelendur of gondor can be conceived of as a bad steward<br />
 [Darkover] Morgoth was stronger, but in terms of what they both wished to do, both Morgoth and Sauron were intensely evil.<br />
 [Goldberry] grima was seeing to sarumans orders, so maybe that makes him saruman&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I would say that Grima was Théoden&#8217;s steward. Eomer and Theodred were Rohan&#8217;s.<br />
 [Demetria] thank you Goldberry<br />
 [Puma] saruman did not share power either<br />
 [Gondhir] following someone&#8217;s orders does not make one a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: the wanted ultimate control. boss-ship, not stewardship.<br />
 [Gondhir] otherwise everyone in Gondor would be a steward of Gondor<br />
 [Darkover] I would call Grima Saruman&#8217;s spy, and Theoden&#8217;s advisor, but not a steward.<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Demosthenes<br />
 [ChristineGolden] That would make him a double agent, but he wasn&#8217;t Saruman&#8217;s steward because Grima had nothing to do with the operations of Isengard.<br />
 [Goldberry] demetria: <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Good observation, Chris<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, again, we probably don&#8217;t know about the day-to-day<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Oh, sorry. Isengard. No<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I thought you meant Rohan<br />
 [Erkenbrand] but grima did have a hand in some of srumans overall plans (shire)<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] perhaps as an agent. Doesn&#8217;t make him a steward<br />
 [Darkover] In a very slave-like way, Erkenbrand. Hardly a steward.<br />
 [Demosthenes] An automaton?<br />
 [selinah] hi<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Hi selinah<br />
 [Darkover] Hi, Selinah<br />
 [Demosthenes] heya selinah<br />
 [Gondhir] movieTheoden was arguably an automaton of Saruman <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demetria] hello selinah<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I am not suggesting that he is a steward, he was bullied into what he did<br />
 [Gondhir] can&#8217;t think of any automatons in the book, though<br />
 [Erkenbrand] hi selinah<br />
 [Puma] isildur can be seen as a flawed steward of middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: the Nazgul.<br />
 [Gondhir] the Nazgul took orders<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Puma<br />
 [Gondhir] probably the closest to an automaton<br />
 [Erkenbrand] isildur tried to stop saruman<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sauron<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I disagree, Puma, because Isildur&#8217;s power was limited to Gondor.<br />
 [Gondhir] but they do seem to have had to &#8220;report in&#8221; from time to time<br />
 [Puma] no<br />
 [Puma] isildur also ruled arnor<br />
 [Demetria] Isildur was a king in his own right<br />
 [Gondhir] Isildur&#8217;s &#8220;power&#8221; extended beyond Gondor but I think including all of ME is stretching it<br />
 [Gondhir] there&#8217;s a lot more to ME than Gondor and Arnor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Still. He was arguably flawed<br />
 [Gondhir] and he doesn&#8217;t seem to have been anyone&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Wherever he was in charge<br />
 [Puma] yes&#8230;..but by taking the ring.that involved all of middle earth<br />
 [Erkenbrand] It may have been limited to gondor but he did try to act as a steward to most of ME<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Is a king a steward?<br />
 [Gondhir] although it&#8217;s possible that his father Elendil entrusted some things to him in a steward-like way<br />
 [Gondhir] but I dont&#8217; think we&#8217;re told that<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oops, sorry, yes Isildur also ruled Arnor, but he certainly didn&#8217;t control the elven or dwarf kingdoms.<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: if you want to get into divine mandates and such &#8230; yes?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] That was my thought<br />
 [Puma] we are talking stewards&#8230;not Stewards<br />
 [Demosthenes] If not, probably not?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think that&#8217;s stretching it.<br />
 * sauronswife needs Merlin to tell her when the capital S is used&#8230; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [TolkienGirl] Merlin?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think when it&#8217;s a title<br />
 [sauronswife] Chat screen-reader&#8230;.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] When you are formally appointed the Steward of Gondor &#8482;<br />
 [Puma] isildur took the ring&#8230;..to be a steward of it.with good intent&#8230;.but we all saw how it turned out<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think a steward must have specific duties/responsibilities and be answerable to a higher authority.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Isildur does seem to have been the especial guardian of the white tree though.<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Isildur even realized it had &#8220;power&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] A very specific sort of stewardship.<br />
 [Puma] very true Demz!!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] What if that higher authority is the will of the people?<br />
 [Gondhir] he seems to have thought it was just a pretty ring that he took from Sauron<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not that you vote for kings . . .<br />
 [Darkover] But can&#8217;t that responsibility be implied, Chris?<br />
 [Gondhir] as &#8220;wereguild&#8221;<br />
 [Erkenbrand] if isildur tried to be a steward of the ring, could you not suggest that Gollum also tried to be a steward of the ring<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;m not sure what you mean, Darkover &#8211; in what context?<br />
 [Darkover] No way, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Puma] isildur when he took the ring.knew what it was<br />
 [Goldberry] no<br />
 [sauronswife] Yeah&#8230; He promised not to let Sauron have it.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think Gollum really knew what it was.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] yeah<br />
 [sauronswife] At that POINT anyway&#8230; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] At least while he had it<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he still tried to care for it and protect it<br />
 [Gondhir] Puma: Maybe, but his letter (that Gandalf later found) makes no mention of any power it may have had. He doesn&#8217;t seem to have wanted to dominate the other bearers of Rings of Power (the primary purpose of the One Ring).<br />
 [sauronswife] See this whole Steward thing seems to be time-limited.. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Well, Denethor&#8211;we&#8217;re back to him&#8211;for example, Chris. He was the umpteenth in a line or ruling stewards. By then, his power and authority were pretty clear, but it was assumed, until Aragorn&#8217;s return, that the King was long gone.<br />
 [Goldberry] gollum wanted it for himself<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Was Morgoth the steward of the silmarils in his crown? Nah<br />
 [Darkover] Thus, implied power, but definitely power<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Hmmm &#8230; the fate of Numenor might imply that the kings of Numenor, Arnor and Gondor had some sort of answerability to the lord of the west.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] He sure tried to keep &#8216;em, but that doesn&#8217;t make him a steward, does it?<br />
 [Demosthenes] And thus in a sense power IS delegated to them.<br />
 [sauronswife] But the Silmarils weren&#8217;t an evil object. Melkor wasn&#8217;t trying to keep them from a being who would when having them back use them to take over the world.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, ok.  No, because the original power was bestowed on Denethor&#8217;s ancestors.  Time may have expanded those powers, but it was a formal transfer of power.<br />
 [Gondhir] this can arguably all go back to Divine Right of Kings<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: yes. it&#8217;s all very wrapped up in that.<br />
 [sauronswife] Why I feel Gollum is a cap-Steward, Melkor with the SIlm would not be.<br />
 [Gondhir] where all kings are divinely appointed by God to rule in His name<br />
 [Goldberry] we&#8217;re getting into the difference between stewarding &#038; ruling over I think<br />
 [sauronswife] Elros&#8230;.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Being held accountable for your actions and choices isn&#8217;t the same thing as being given specific duties, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Darkover] But you said that a true steward had to answer to somebody. I hope I&#8217;m not nitpicking, but with the King long gone, as everyone assumed, who would Denethor and his predecessors have to answer to, Chris?<br />
 [Gondhir] God is the Ultimate King of the World<br />
 [Goldberry] what is the difference?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a firm answer to any of this<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but any ruler or leader of any kind who claimed to answer only to God, would make me very nervous.<br />
 [Gondhir] especially since everyone here seems to be using a different definition of &#8220;steward&#8221; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] right<br />
 [Goldberry] lol gondhir<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Maybe, but that&#8217;s because you don&#8217;t buy the theory.<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: i do think it&#8217;s quite shaded and not you&#8217;re in, or you&#8217;re out.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] as anyone actually got a dictionary definition of steward?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No one, which is one of the reasons Denethor fell from reason into power-madness, Darkover.  I believe there&#8217;s a quote on that between him and Gandalf.<br />
 [Gondhir] there have historically been lots of people who DID<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Someone already posted one high above, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Gondhir] most of the major kingdoms of Europe were based around the concept, at least for a while<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Something about Denethor wanting things to stay as they had and he didn&#8217;t need no stinkin&#8217; king to return.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Chris, was that you? Still have it?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but we&#8217;re talking about Tolkien&#8217;s M-E<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I do, Jen.<br />
 [Gondhir] yes, that&#8217;s true<br />
 [Puma] i dont think denethor had power madness&#8230;.he went mad.but did not abuse power&#8230;.he just decided to kill himself etc<br />
 [Gondhir] and the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor seem to have been operating under that theory<br />
 [Gondhir] and in their case, it seems to have been TRUE<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who manages another&#8217;s property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.<br />
 [Demosthenes] 2.<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Chris, yes, I remember that<br />
 [Demosthenes] an employee who has charge of the table, wine, servants, etc., in a club, restaurant, or the like.<br />
 [Demosthenes] 4.<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who attends to the domestic concerns of persons on board a vessel, as in overseeing maids and waiters.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one&#8217;s care/<br />
 [Demosthenes] stolen from dictionary.com<br />
 [Goldberry] so caring for, not ruling over<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Puma, arguably Denethor was abusing his power when he tried to immolate Faramir as well as himself.<br />
 [Puma] but you can both care for and rule in certain instances<br />
 [Gondhir] the position of Steward of Gondor seems to have originally begun as simply the manager of the king&#8217;s household<br />
 [Goldberry] true, puma<br />
 [Gondhir] like, historically, a lot of other important roles<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: seems like that to me, too.<br />
 [Gondhir] chamberlain&#8217;s originally actually dressed the ruler<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] So, by Chris&#8217;s definition, you have the responsibility to manage something &#8220;entrusted to one&#8217;s care.&#8221; It implies you are answerable to someone. But doesn&#8217;t specify that<br />
 [Gondhir] chamberlains<br />
 [Darkover] Until Mardil the Good Steward, anyway, Gondhir<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It could simply be that you are answerable to the people<br />
 [Gondhir] marshals and constables took care of the horses<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And so Kings could be Stewards<br />
 [Gondhir] etc.<br />
 [marco] back<br />
 [Goldberry] wb marco<br />
 [Erkenbrand] since Grima didn&#8217;t responsibly manage anything, he is still a &#8220;Steward&#8221;<br />
 [marco] thanks<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, except for the Shire, I don&#8217;t believe they held elections in ME, Jennie.  Not trying to be a smart ass-et, just saying that democracy wasn&#8217;t a big thing in ME.<br />
 [Gondhir] again, being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward<br />
 [Darkover] True, Jennie. &#8220;The people&#8221; didn&#8217;t vote.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Nnnno . . . . as I said, you don&#8217;t vote for kings. I agree.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But you are responsible to them<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] With great power, and all that<br />
 [Puma] well&#8230;the people sort of did vote for aragorn<br />
 [Darkover] And Faramir, as last ruling Steward, did ask the people of Minas Tirith if Aragorn/Elessar should enter and rule there.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Without support of the people, kings can be deposed<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say a king is responsible for his people, but not to them.<br />
 [Darkover] Everyone cheered, and he went on in.<br />
 [lunarising] wait what? how did they vote for Aragorn?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think that was part of the ceremony, Darkover<br />
 [Goldberry] well, it&#8217;s getting late, but it&#8217;s been great <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Gondhir] you could argue that the (or a) purpose of the President of the United states is to responsibly manage the government of the United States. And, regardless of your politics, there have undoubtedly been some Presidents who you would think failed to do that. But that doesn&#8217;t mean they weren&#8217;t President.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Bye Goldberry<br />
 [ChristineGolden] they cheered, luna.<br />
 [Goldberry] cya<br />
 [Darkover] Sure, but in principle, an important part.<br />
 [Puma] no official vote..but by acclaimation<br />
 [Demosthenes] lunarising: there was a popular acclaim thing after the Cormallen. A bit like ayes and nays in Parliament.<br />
 [Darkover] bye, Goldberry<br />
 [lunarising] ah thanks Chris<br />
 [ChristineGolden] np<br />
 [lunarising] forgot that part, thanks too Dem<br />
 [Demosthenes] In the Westminster system you can actually have a vote (and bills passing) without a formal Division.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Kings can be deposed; Presidents impeached. It happens<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not often in ME, of course<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Does anyone really think Aragorn would have just rode away if they people hadn&#8217;t cheered?  &#8220;Okay, I&#8217;m outta here.&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: the master of lake-town.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Saruman was kicked out of Isengard, but not by subjects<br />
 [Puma] yes.laketown did vote!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Maybe<br />
 [Puma] good one Demz!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Dems<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: he might have.<br />
 [Gondhir] Laketown seems to have operated a lot like a medieval German township<br />
 [lunarising] so could he be considered a steward?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Of course, he seems to be the quintessential politician.<br />
 [lunarising] he was elected like Sam as mayor of the shire<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yes, he was a really sucky steward of Laketown<br />
 [Darkover] Happily, the people did welcome him. Under the circumstances, no reason why they shouldn&#8217;t have.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But people probably didn&#8217;t realize how bad until Smaug came<br />
 [Darkover] Aragorn at Minas Tirith, I mean<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think the master of lake-town is a steward. A bad one, or a corrupt one, but still a steward.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Do we know that the Master of Laketown was elected by the people?<br />
 [Gondhir] People probably didn&#8217;t realize how bad until he absconded with the treasury&#8230;<br />
 [Gondhir] ChristineGolden: Probably by a subset of the people<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It doesn&#8217;t appear to have been a hereditary position<br />
 [Gondhir] I doubt &#8220;voter&#8221; included all adult persons<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, there&#8217;s that, Gondhir. (re: treasury)<br />
 [Demosthenes] If i recall correctly, it does mention that the master was elected.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Whether that means universal suffragacy &#8230; who knows?<br />
 [Puma] it does Demz<br />
 [ChristineGolden] More likely, the town leaders were a council and the Master chosen from among them.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] the town leaders formed a council&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] puma: it could have been limited to property owners.<br />
 [Puma] at times the steward of gondor was chosen by a council.not all stewards had sons<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] On a pier-built lake, what constitutes &#8220;property&#8221;?<br />
 [Gondhir] a house?<br />
 [Gondhir] business?<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: anything that floats. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] shops, homes, businesses.<br />
 [Gondhir] gold?<br />
 [Darkover] your own boat, probably<br />
 [Gondhir] (people?)<br />
 [ChristineGolden] boats, money, assets.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Gold doesn&#8217;t float<br />
 [Puma] bard has his arrow<br />
 [Darkover] we seem to have drifted a bit, no pun intended, from stewardship<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] very small rocks<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] churches<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Does anyone think the Noldor were stewards?  Because I don&#8217;t.<br />
 [Darkover] I don&#8217;t, either.<br />
 [lunarising] no but I think Galadriel sort of became one when she got to Lorien<br />
 [Puma] no.the noldor were not stewards<br />
 [sauronswife] If they were (still trying to decide on the definition of steward or cap-Steward) they would have been horrendous ones.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think they had an implied obligation to care for middle-earth for their successors.<br />
 [Darkover] I think Galadriel was the ruler of Lorien, not a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] Arguably, they were pretty bad at it.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] From whom, Demosthenes?  They revolted against the Valar, so who did they represent?<br />
 [Puma] galadriel was specifically not a queen.nor celeborn king<br />
 [Darkover] If you want to look at it that way, Demosthenes, probably everyone who lives in M-E does. Doesn&#8217;t make us all stewards, though.<br />
 [Demosthenes] From Eru. Or from the Music of the Ainur&#8230;<br />
 [Puma] they  both took over a stewardship of lorien&#8230;..after amroth left<br />
 [Puma] to preserve it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think they ruled it, Puma.  Didn&#8217;t the Fellowship have to be taken before Galadriel and Celeborn when they were captured to have their fate determined?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, they did. Chris is right.<br />
 [Puma] not for their fate<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Lord and Lady the same as King and Queen?<br />
 [Gondhir] Celeborn &#038; Galadriel were still not Amroth&#8217;s Stewards<br />
 [Demetria] well supper time for me, it was lovely meeting you all, and enjoyed the discussion<br />
 [Puma] not amroths steward<br />
 [Gondhir] there was no fiction that he was going to ever come back<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Bye Demetria<br />
 [Darkover] Galadriel and Celeborn may not have used the title of Queen and King, but they had as much power<br />
 [Puma] but steward imo can mean to preserve<br />
 [Gondhir] or that there was anyone they were answerable to<br />
 [Darkover] and as Gondhir said, Amroth was never coming back<br />
 [Demosthenes] If the elves must inevitably depart to Aman, then &#8230; Middle-earth isn&#8217;t theirs forever. Thus they have a (moral) obligation to take care of things in the meantime. A stewardship of sorts.<br />
 [Gondhir] unless you go back tot he whole &#8220;Divine Right&#8221; thing<br />
 [Darkover] and that was something in canon that Tolkien never really cleared up, anyway<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say the difference isn&#8217;t worth arguing, Jennie.  They held the power of life and death over the Fellowship, whether you call them lord an lady or king and queen.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I agree<br />
 [Puma] elves dont have to go to aman.they can remain.they have free choice<br />
 [Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO, that makes the definition of stewardship so broad as to be almost meaningless<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Also the power to protect or neglect Lothlorien<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, there has to be limits on a word&#8217;s definition or it has no value.<br />
 [Puma] in one way the noldor can be considered stewards&#8230;by keeping morgoth bottled up in the north&#8230;&#8230;they saved much of arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] They can be fuzzy limits<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: sometimes I think that&#8217;s the implication of Gandalf&#8217;s line to Denethor.<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think the Noldor were doing that for that reason<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Chris<br />
 [marco] noldor were selfish<br />
 [Puma] i dont either.but it was the result<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: I think that Gandalf was ACTUALLY APPOINTED to be the Valar&#8217;s Vicar in Middle Earth<br />
 [Gondhir] and the Valar were actually appointed to be Eru&#8217;s Vicar in Arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] vicar. lol<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Results can be accidental.  I think the Noldor were trying to protect their own kingdoms, their own lands.<br />
 [Darkover] And Demosthenes, Gandalf was indeed a steward, but he was given a specific assignment by the Valar, which he willingly accepted. He was not just a person born in M-E<br />
 [Demosthenes] gond: yah, but &#8230; his statement feels much broader than &#8220;i was sent by blah blah blah&#8221;<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe. Again, we seem to be splitting hairs.<br />
 [Puma] splitting hairs is what we do here.lol<br />
 [Gondhir] Jenniearcheo: &#8220;Vicar&#8221; doesn&#8217;t just (or originally) mean something like &#8220;priest or preacher&#8221;<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Still conjures Dawn French in my mind. Sorry<br />
 [Gondhir] it&#8217;s related to VICARious<br />
 [ChristineGolden] me, too, Jen.<br />
 [Gondhir] religious vicars were originally &#8220;bishop&#8217;s vicars&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] who took care of the religious duties the bishop couldn&#8217;t be bothered to do<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;m not arguing with you. Just snickering at the same time.<br />
 [Gondhir] well, I&#8217;m just saying, in case other people didn&#8217;t realize <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Do we have any other examples we haven&#8217;t covered? Did we touch on Fangorn/Treebeard?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think you explained it pretty well<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Briefly. And Tom<br />
 [Darkover] We seem to have covered everything.<br />
 [Puma] treebeard was a guardian of the forests.or in 3rd age fangorn forest<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Okay, the Valar were Eru&#8217;s stewards and the Istari were the Valar&#8217;s stewards.  Denethor&#8217;s line was the stewards of Gondor &#8211; was the line of Eorl stewards for the kings of Gondor?<br />
 [lunarising] what about Ciridan and the grey havens?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Only to point out that neither seemed to have anyone obvious to answer to<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But who demonstrably took care of an area<br />
 [Darkover] I mentioned that, lunarising. I thought he might qualify as a steward, but no one here seemed to agree.<br />
 [Demosthenes] lunarising: cirdan seems to have had a responsiblity over the straight path.<br />
 [Puma] i agree Darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, I think the ents were stewards created by Yavanna to guard her forests against Aule&#8217;s dwarves, etc.<br />
 [lunarising] oh &#8211; ok that might have been when I fell offline<br />
 [Darkover] Okay, one person does, then. Thank you, puma <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Puma] cirdan gave narya to gandalf&#8230;..<br />
 [lunarising] but I&#8217;d agree with you<br />
 [Puma] by giving the ring.he was acting as a steward to middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] I guess you could say Cirdan is the Ferryman. He stewards folks across the ocean.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I would call Cirdan a guardian, Darkover.  I know, hair-splitting, but he assumes the responsibility himself.  He isn&#8217;t appointed to the task that we know of.<br />
 [Puma] cirdan was much more than that<br />
 [lunarising] he&#8217;s a small steward but still a steward<br />
 [Puma] he was apponted Christine.its in peoples of middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] Like Tom B stewards his tiny little patch.<br />
 [lunarising] yep<br />
 [Darkover] Actually, I don&#8217;t recall how Cirdan came to be in the position he occupied.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If you don&#8217;t mind, by whom, Puma?<br />
 [sauronswife] Visions from the Valar I believe&#8230;?<br />
 [Puma] jrr wore a late essay on cirdan.explaining his place<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: last man standing. Err, elf.<br />
 [Darkover] Hi, Alex, which is a lot easier to spell<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Demosthenes<br />
 [Puma] wrote<br />
 [Puma] by the valar<br />
 [Alex] lolz<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Thanks.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sorry, Alex.You&#8217;ve sort of come in at the end of a long conversation.<br />
 [Alex] lol<br />
 [Alex] dont i always<br />
 [Puma] its there&#8230;..i can get quote anytime you ask<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Be here next week an hour and a half earlier than now.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Final arguments then? Last chance. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] Then, yes, I&#8217;d say Cirdan was a steward, but I don&#8217;t know of anyone appointing Bombadil.<br />
 [Puma] okie<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, I&#8217;d call him a guardian, not a steward.<br />
 [sauronswife] I feel like I&#8217;m FORGETTING someone but meh.<br />
 [Alex] yes ma&#8217;am!<br />
 [Puma] great job Demz.this was a fun topic<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Thanks, Demosthenes<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;ll take you up on that, Puma.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [sauronswife] This topic has given me a headache. lol<br />
 [Darkover] I think we covered about everybody. And we all had a lot to say. Exceptionally good discussion!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yes, thanks all.<br />
 [lunarising] yes indeed<br />
 [ChristineGolden] old man willow<br />
 [lunarising] thanks as always Demosthenes<br />
<b>Session Close: Sun Jul 07 09:42:01 2013</b></p>
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		<title>An essay on Tolkien&#8217;s earliest mythology of Middle-earth</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/13/75599-an-essay-on-tolkiens-earliest-mythology-of-middle-earth/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[In this extract from his acclaimed book Tolkien and the Great War: the Threshold of Middle-earth, John Garth outlines some of the earliest antecedents of J.R.R. Tolkien&#8217;s Legendarium, in around March 1916, shortly before he left for the Somme. Even for someone who&#8217;s only read as far as, say, The Silmarillion, there are tantalising threads [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tolkien-and-the-great-war-01-196x300.jpg" alt="tolkien-and-the-great-war-" width="196" height="300" class="alignright size-full wp-image-75600" /> In this extract from his acclaimed book <i>Tolkien and the Great War: the Threshold of Middle-earth</i>, John Garth outlines some of the earliest antecedents of J.R.R. Tolkien&#8217;s Legendarium, in around March 1916, shortly before he left for the Somme. Even for someone who&#8217;s only read as far as, say, The Silmarillion, there are tantalising threads of familiar and semi-familiar names.</p>
<p><span id="more-75599"></span></p>
<hr />
<h3>Tolkien&#8217;s earliest mythology of Middle-earth, 1915–1916</h3>
<p><b>by John Garth</b></p>
<p>TOLKIEN’S Middle-earth did not spring fully-formed into what we see in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Its complex development is laid out in Christopher Tolkien’s History of Middle-earth, going back to The Book of Lost Tales begun in late 1916 in hospital after the Battle of the Somme.</p>
<p>But there is an even earlier phase of Tolkien’s work on Middle-earth: from 1915–16, glimpsed fragmentarily in poems and in a lexicon of Qenya, his first invented Elvish language.</p>
<p>Here, in a passage from Tolkien and the Great War, I tentatively piece together the way the mythology stood in about March 1916, shortly before embarkation for the Somme. For those interested, brief notes on how I did so may be found at the end. Some details (and spellings or diacritics) are quite familiar, many are not. Some details (and spellings or diacritics) are quite familiar, many are not. Beings and places which survive in the later legendarium appear here under earlier names: for example, Eru (God) is Enu, which Tolkien relates to a Qenya verb meaning ‘devise’. Some names eventually found an entirely different use: decades later, ‘Sangahyando’ was given to a rebel royal of Gondor in The Lord of the Rings. Some concepts, such as the Valar and Eldamar, were to undergo many further developments.</p>
<p>[<a href="http://www.johngarth.co.uk/php/tolkiens_earliest_mythology_of_middle-earth.php" target="_blank">Read More</a>]</p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: Flotsam and Jetsam</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/12/75575-hall-of-fire-chat-log-flotsam-and-jetsam/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/12/75575-hall-of-fire-chat-log-flotsam-and-jetsam/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 03:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[A couple of weekends back in the Hall of Fire, we discussed the events of the Two Towers chapter Flotsam and Jetsam, and the reunion of five of the Fellowship&#8217;s members. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /><br />
A couple of weekends back in the Hall of Fire, we discussed the events of the Two Towers chapter <i>Flotsam and Jetsam</i>, and the reunion of five of the Fellowship&#8217;s members. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. </p>
<p>And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter: The Voice of Saruman.<span id="more-75575"></span></p>
<hr />
<b>Session Start: Sun Jun 30 07:20:31 2013</b><br />
<b>Session Ident: #thehalloffire</b><br />
 * Now talking in #thehalloffire<br />
 * Demosthenes changes topic to &#8216;The HOF topic today: Two Towers Bk 3 Ch 9: flotsam and jetsam | General TORn chat thataway! click &#8211;] #theonering.net&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] All right. Shall we get this dog and pony show started?<br />
 [sunshower] let&#8217;s<br />
 [PippinFTW] sure<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;m ready when you are, Demosthenes.<br />
 [miriel] more like cat and bunny show <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Birdy] right on<br />
 [PippinFTW] hey Thorin!<br />
 [miriel] thanks PippinFTW <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Birdy] and birdy.. dog cat and birdy show&#8230;<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] this is confusing!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Title observation! Flotsam and jetsam is a really clever name at a couple of levels.<br />
 [Birdy] AND bunny<br />
 [Susanita] and a pony for Dem<br />
 [miriel] yup<br />
 [PippinFTW] I never really understood the chapter name. What does it mean?<br />
 [sunshower] and&#8230;Sam&#8217;s not even in this chapter<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I thought so, too, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Goldberry] Yes<br />
 [Anameleth] I dont recall this chapter<br />
 [Demosthenes] Because really, it&#8217;s a catch-up chapter on &#8230; well &#8230; bits and pieces we&#8217;ve missed out on.<br />
 [sunshower] odds and ends PippinFTW<br />
 [Birdsong] oh my goodness im double logged in here&#8230;<br />
 [miriel] the stuff&#8230; that gets left on a beach after ebb and flood?<br />
 [PippinFTW] oh ok<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] it means wreck.<br />
 [Susanita] flotsam and jetsam is what&#8217;s floating in the water after a shipwreck<br />
 [Demosthenes] And there&#8217;s the flood itself and the debris it brings<br />
 [ChristineGolden] It refers to the leftovers from a shipwreck.  They&#8217;re legal terms.<br />
 [miriel] oooh, after a wreck<br />
 [Demosthenes] And there&#8217;s lots of little stuff in the chapter too.<br />
 [miriel] now that was news for me<br />
 [PippinFTW] ok thanks for the clarification!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, that&#8217;s not flotsam.<br />
 [selinahh] moi<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] hi.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Flotsam is floating wreckage of a ship or its cargo.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Jetsam is part of a ship, its equipment, or its cargo that is purposefully cast overboard or jettisoned to lighten the load in time of distress and that sinks or is washed ashore.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I guess because it has been jettisoned.<br />
 [sunshower] flotsam, pipeweed<br />
 [Birdsong] awesome ive always heard of flotsam and jetsam but never knew them apart<br />
 [Demosthenes] What&#8217;s the jetsam? All the orcs Saruman abandons?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, that&#8217;s jetsam, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Susanita] they are often used together in the turn of phrase<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Flotsam is the ship and cargo in total; jetsam is what is deliberately cast overboard.<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] confusing.<br />
 [PippinFTW] The jetsam probably refers to all the supplies that Merry and Pippin find<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Hi everyone!<br />
 [miriel] ! ok, now I will interpret the meaning of that chaptername very differently<br />
 [miriel] thanks <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Birdsong] hello Rig<br />
 [Goldberry] Hi<br />
 [sunshower] so Grima is jetsam?<br />
 [PippinFTW] hi ringlordsander!<br />
 [Birdsong] Ring*<br />
 [Esther] hello<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] Hi alll!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Maybe Merry and Pippin are the jetsam?<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] no i don&#8217;t think so.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Merry&#038;Pippin aren&#8217;t cast overboard&#8230;<br />
 [PippinFTW] I was thinking of the palantir, but that&#8217;s a different chapter<br />
 [Birdsong] maybe they are simly both different types of Sam&#8230;<br />
 [Pete_R] Jetsam: 1. Cargo or equipment thrown overboard to lighten a ship in distress. 2. Discarded cargo or equipment found washed ashore. See Usage Note at flotsam. 3. Discarded odds and ends.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;And now that the great ones have gone to discuss high matters,&#8217; said Legolas, &#8216;the hunters can perhaps learn the answers to their own small riddles. We tracked you as far as the forest, but there are still many things that I should like to know the truth of.&#8217;<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] wooo!<br />
 [PippinFTW] Could it be the palantir?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Or maybe it&#8217;s all of the companions left behind as Theoden and Gandy go off to discuss things.<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] slow down!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Too early for that I think.<br />
 [Demosthenes] It&#8217;s not this chapter<br />
 [ChristineGolden] It must refer to the content of the chapter, which is mainly about the attack of the ents.<br />
 [Esther] I actually have never understood the name and the reason they use the name<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Wouldn&#8217;t it be the food that Saruman left in his storages when the Ents attacked Isengard?<br />
 [Ringlordsander] (the Jetsam)<br />
 [sunshower] odds and ends&#8230;.wrapping up the tidbits of info<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] yay.<br />
 [miriel] hi pete<br />
 [PippinFTW] But the food was left behind&#8230; not thrown out<br />
 [Demosthenes] I agree with sunshower. It&#8217;s mostly about tying up loose ends.<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] yeah Ringlordsander!<br />
 [selinahh] ..<br />
 [Demosthenes] the companions catching up.<br />
 [Pete_R] hi, miriel, how are you? Hi, Demosthenes, and all<br />
 [Birdsong] hi Pete<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;And there is a great deal, too, that we want to know about you &#8216; said Merry. &#8216;We have learnt a few things through Treebeard, the Old Ent, but that is not nearly enough.&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;All in good time,&#8217; said Legolas. &#8216;We were the hunters, and you should give an account of yourselves to us first.&#8217;<br />
 [PippinFTW] If it&#8217;s about tying up loose ends then the meaning is pretty clear<br />
 [Goldberry] Hi pete<br />
 [sunshower] I do like the way Legolas sort of separates *his* buddies from the rest for a minute<br />
 [PippinFTW] hi pete<br />
 [Pete_R] Hey, Goldberry and sunshower<br />
 [sunshower] hey Pete_R<br />
 [Esther] if this is about loose ends, what loose ends are they referring too<br />
 [sunshower] M&#038;P in Fanghorn<br />
 [sunshower] where&#8217;s Saruman<br />
 [Susanita] M&#038;P provide exposition<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Hmm. Thrown overboard.. Could it have something to do with the river Isen?<br />
 [PippinFTW] Esther the Company is just explaining what happened while they were separated<br />
 [Thorin_Oakenshield] bye all!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Esther: I think it&#8217;s how Merry and Pippin escaped from the orcs and got to Isengard.<br />
 [PippinFTW] leaving already thorin? bye!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Could the flotsam be the ent attack and the jetsam, the aftermath?<br />
 [Goldberry] Cya thorin <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Esther] oh ok, yeah I&#8217;ve never understood that part of the story<br />
 [Demosthenes] oh .. and this.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Once Aragorn returns the two sheathed knives and the brooch from Pippin&#8217;s Lothlórien cloak, the hobbits start their tale:<br />
 [selinahh] :s<br />
 [Demosthenes] the little items that M&#038;P lost along the way<br />
 [sunshower] important part: the returning of those knives<br />
 [Demosthenes] yes. seemingly tiny tho!<br />
 [sunshower] mm hmm<br />
 [PippinFTW] Dems so those are the jetsam?<br />
 [Pete_R] Flotsam and jetsam are also what&#8217;s left after a ship sinks, and the good ship Isengard sure did flounder.<br />
 [Demosthenes] PippinFTW: i reckon they could be.<br />
 [Anameleth] thats what I think<br />
 [Demosthenes] And a gesture of friendship too.<br />
 [Demosthenes] companionship.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t think Tolkien would title the entire chapter over the return of two knives.<br />
 [Goldberry] I find it interesting jrr tells it in a flashback<br />
 [sunshower] frankly  I was amazed that Pip still had his pipe! and a spare!!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Goldberry: that does slow the action down, don&#8217;t you think?<br />
 [Goldberry] yes<br />
 [Ringlordsander] sunshower Were you? He&#8217;s a Hobbit after all&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] It&#8217;s a more considered chapter after the pell mell pace of Helm&#8217;s Deep.<br />
 [PippinFTW] I do remember that one of the words were mentioned somewhere&#8230; but I forget where<br />
 [sunshower] it&#8217;s a breather chapter<br />
 [Esther] u guys are have more info from the book, I still have to read it so all I have for this scene is from the movie<br />
 [Demosthenes] sunshower: very much so!<br />
 [Susanita] everybody breathe!<br />
 [Pete_R] I think that because Isengard was flooded, Tolkien gave this a tongue-in-cheek nautical title.<br />
 [sunshower] yes Ringlordsander&#8211;they went thru Orc shakedown I think<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it&#8217;s a theory anyhow!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say using a flashback technique gives the chapter a reflective feeling, esp with the pipes.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Ah the pipes. Another gesture.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] sunshower. Why would the Orcs care if Pippin had a few pipes?<br />
 [PippinFTW] Tying up loose ends over teh pipes, I guess<br />
 [Demosthenes] And the hobbits serve lunch quite happily.<br />
 [PippinFTW] *the<br />
 [Demosthenes] Aragorn and his companions sat themselves down at one end of a long table, and the hobbits disappeared through one of the inner doors. &#8216;Store-room in there, and above the woods, luckily,&#8217; said Pippin, as they came back laden with dishes, bowls, cups, knives, and food of various sorts.<br />
 [Demosthenes] and:<br />
 [Demosthenes] The three were soon busy with their meal; and the two hobbits, unabashed, set to a second time. &#8216;We must keep our guests company,&#8217; they said.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;You are full of courtesy this morning,&#8217; laughed Legolas. &#8216;But maybe. if we had not arrived, you would already have been keeping one another company again.&#8217;<br />
 [sunshower] hobbity<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, but that&#8217;s just setting the scene.<br />
 [miriel] Ringlordsander they might not have known what they were: hobbits were the ones to start the tradition of smoking with pipes, so orcs might not have picked up the habit<br />
 [PippinFTW] I never understood how Pippin kept his pipes while in captivity. You&#8217;d think the Orcs would take their stuff, right?<br />
 [sunshower] I would think that, yes<br />
 [sunshower] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, they were undoubtedly told NOT to search the prisoners, only to disarm them.<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i found it interesting that the flashback is wrapped in a scene of homeliness. A very neat contrast.<br />
 [PippinFTW] But then again, the Orc didn&#8217;t know whether Pippin had the Ring<br />
 [Ringlordsander] I was more surprised the Orcs didn&#8217;t take the cloaks from Lothlorien..<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Saruman wouldn&#8217;t want them finding the ring.<br />
 [Esther] yeah that part was strange to me to PippinFTW how could they still have the pipes?<br />
 [Demosthenes] juxtaposition i guess.<br />
 [miriel] ChristineGolden good point<br />
 [Demosthenes] At a technical level.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Right, Christine. Good point<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, esp among such chaos and filth, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Pete_R] Chris is right&#8211;they had specific orders not to spoil th prisonres<br />
 [miriel] Darkover <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [sunshower] hi Darkover<br />
 [Darkover] Greetings, Miriel and sunshower!<br />
 [Darkover] Sorry I&#8217;m late, all.<br />
 [Demosthenes] heya Darkover<br />
 [PippinFTW] hi Darkover!<br />
 [Pete_R] Hi, Darkover<br />
 [Goldberry] Hi darkover<br />
 [Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes and PippinFTW<br />
 [Anameleth] hi darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] running later than usual today, Darkover; glad you made it.<br />
 [Darkover] Hi, Goldberry and Pete_R<br />
 [Goldberry] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] You&#8217;re right, Chris, very sorry, nice to be  here!<br />
 [sunshower] where/how did Aragorn get the knives?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, we have the description of a major battle told in flashback over the spoils of war.<br />
 [Demosthenes] the barrow blades? they were cast aside by the orcs at Amon Hen.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He found them, sunshower.<br />
 [PippinFTW] sunshower they were dropped when Merry and Pippin were taken by the Orcs, when Boromir died<br />
 [Demosthenes] Who evidently feared them.<br />
 [miriel] yup<br />
 [sunshower] ok, so those were not *taken* off the Hobbits<br />
 [Demosthenes] No<br />
 [sunshower] gotcha<br />
 [Demosthenes] With M&#038;P&#8217;s summary, what&#8217;s the important stuff we learn?<br />
 [miriel] also, they would not have carried the swords with them anyway &#8212; extra weight, and probably too small for an orc to wield<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Isengard is no longer a threat.<br />
 [sunshower] Saruman is there<br />
 [sunshower] Grima too<br />
 [PippinFTW] We learn all about how the Ents attacked Isengard<br />
 [Darkover] And what happened to Saruman<br />
 [miriel] ents are rather dangerous <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Susanita] don&#8217;t mess with Ents<br />
 [Goldberry] Lol<br />
 [Demosthenes] Is there one key thing?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Or just many things<br />
 [Darkover] an important lesson, Susanita<br />
 [PippinFTW] We learn about the Hourns<br />
 [Darkover] There is one thing, at the end of the chapter<br />
 [miriel] loads of important bits<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Gondor no longer has a knife at its back while facing Mordor.<br />
 [Darkover] no one understands the significance until later<br />
 [Darkover] the presence of Shire-grown pipeweed at Isengard<br />
 [Susanita] yep that&#8217;s it Darkover<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: yes that does become important later.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Again, a seemingly trivial detail.<br />
 [miriel] and indeed, Darkover, that is very intriguing<br />
 [ChristineGolden] It&#8217;s a hint, but not crucial to the chapter itself.<br />
 [Darkover] Of course, the most immediate consideration is Saruman<br />
 [Susanita] good wizard gone bad<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;No,&#8217; said Aragorn. &#8216;Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt.<br />
 [miriel] grima too is of importance, mostly as a start to the tie-up as to what happened to him (even if the end comes much much later)<br />
 [Anameleth] Yes, grima is key<br />
 [sunshower] Aragorn mentions that Gandalf hinted that the &#8220;old man&#8221; may have been Saruman<br />
 [Demosthenes] That&#8217;s an interesting thing that Aragorn says about Saruman<br />
 [Demosthenes] Perhaps he had met him personally?<br />
 [Darkover] Hadn&#8217;t thought of that, Demosthenes, but you&#8217;re probably right<br />
 [PippinFTW] Do we know for sure if they&#8217;ve met?<br />
 [Goldberry] Interesting thought&#8230;<br />
 [sunshower] think he heard about him from Elrond?<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe back when he was Thorongil?<br />
 [Ringlordsander] I don&#8217;t think Aragorn had met Saruman before. Why would he?<br />
 [PippinFTW] Until that point, at least<br />
 [PippinFTW] Maybe they were both in Rivendell at the same time<br />
 [Anameleth] Hmm<br />
 [Darkover] Surely Aragorn would have heard of Saruman, but I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s unreasonable to believe they met<br />
 [Demosthenes] Just the way that is phrased. it sounds like personal knowledge.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Not second-hand.<br />
 [Darkover] Aragorn has lived a long time for a Man, under many identities<br />
 [Darkover] Seems reasonable to me<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: that too. Thoringil, for example.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Aragorn was living there while the White Council was held<br />
 [miriel] did aragorn ever visit Isengard?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Does it make a difference if they met or not?<br />
 [Darkover] We don&#8217;t know for a fact that he did&#8211;or that he didn&#8217;t<br />
 [PippinFTW] I think so, miriel&#8230;<br />
 [miriel] did we not get a description of how people were seldom let in there<br />
 [Darkover] Not really, Chris, just intriguing<br />
 [Ringlordsander] PippinFTW Yes, but wasn&#8217;t Aragorn very young when the White Counsels were held?<br />
 [Anameleth] Would it have been possible he met saruman because of his connections to gondor?<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: probably not. Aragorn&#8217;s respect for the Saruman of old appears very genuine though.<br />
 [Goldberry] 10 years old<br />
 [Pete_R] But if Aragorn had met Saruman before seeing the old man in Fangorn Forest, wouldn&#8217;t he have known whether it was him or not? Wizards change a *lot* more slowly than mortal men do, so he wouldn&#8217;t have changed that much.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Yes, Ringlord, but he was there for a long time. Maybe at one point?<br />
 [Darkover] Hmmm<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I believe it was a fleeting sighting, pete.<br />
 [miriel] I dunno if his description &#8220;The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt&#8221; is all that nice<br />
 [Darkover] But it is accurate, Miriel<br />
 [miriel] yes, but not very flattering<br />
 [Darkover] I doubt if Aragorn was in the mood to be flattering about Saruman<br />
 [miriel] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  true<br />
 [Demosthenes] Present Saruman seems much less grand though. Yes?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] the truth often isn&#8217;t flattering, miriel.  It simply &#8216;is.&#8217;<br />
 [Darkover] Besides, it might be a warning as much as anything else<br />
 [Goldberry] Not after helms deep<br />
 [Darkover] Saruman is still dangerous, I mean<br />
 [Pete_R] Not sure how fleeting, tho, Chris. He was there long enough for them to speak to them. It&#8217;s not very clear, so who knows.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [miriel] indeed, he does dems<br />
 [Demosthenes] I don&#8217;t know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he has not much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Maybe while Aragorn was in Rivendell he heard so much about Saruman, he felt like he knew him<br />
 [Darkover] Saruman has lost a lot of his power, I think, Demosthenes, but he is like a wounded beast&#8211;dangerous<br />
 [miriel] I was trying to make a point, that even the *old* saruman did not sound all that nice<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Darkover. Yes. Dangerous as a man. But he could not let nations rise and fall anymore, so he wasn&#8217;t very powerful anymore&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] and: There was a pale figure hurrying away in and out of the shadows of the pillars, and it had nearly reached the stairs to the tower-door. But it was a near thing. Quickbeam was so hot after him, that he was within a step or two of being caught and strangled when he slipped in through the door.<br />
 [Darkover] Oh, sorry, Miriel, I thought you meant Aragorn wasn&#8217;t being nice!<br />
 [miriel] haha, nope<br />
 [ChristineGolden] me, too, miriel.<br />
 [Darkover] There is something in what you say, Ringlorsander<br />
 [Darkover] sorry, Ringlordsander<br />
 [Darkover] bye, anameleth<br />
 [sunshower] that sounds pretty weak&#8230;pale figuring hurrying<br />
 [Demosthenes] Yes it does<br />
 [sunshower] no power against the Ents?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Saruman is not simply retreating, he is in rout.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I liked the description of the huorns.  In the previous chapter, we only got glimpses and hints at what they were.<br />
 [Goldberry] Reminds me of descriptions of gollum<br />
 [PippinFTW] never thought of that, Goldberry<br />
 [Darkover] An ent might have been able to tear Saruman apart before the wizard could bewitch him.<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: And more about /what/ they are.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] and what they can do.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Goldberry. Who? Saruman? That kinda reminds me of Gollum as well. He was once a good wizard, just like Gollum was a good person. But because of the Ring, they both went evil&#8230;<br />
 [Goldberry] Yeah<br />
 [Pete_R] A number of people (including me) thought that OMW might be a huorn.<br />
 [selinahh] true<br />
 [Darkover] I think it is putting it too strongly to say that Gollum was ever a good person, Rindlordsander, there was just a time when he wasn&#8217;t a *bad* person.<br />
 [miriel] OMW?<br />
 [Darkover] But you are right, both turned to evil, although Saruman with less excuse, IMO<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I disagree.  I believe Saruman always had the seeds of his downfall within him: pride, hubris, arrogance &#8211; call it what you will.<br />
 [PippinFTW] old man willow?<br />
 [miriel] aah<br />
 [miriel] oki<br />
 [PippinFTW] i think<br />
 [Demosthenes] christine: They seem fearful things. half-wild. or maybe even 3/4 wild?<br />
 [Pete_R] yes, PippinFTW<br />
 [Demosthenes] Huorns. Not a pet.<br />
 [Goldberry] Lol<br />
 [Darkover] lol<br />
 [miriel] not a very nice pet at least <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [sunshower] I do like that we get some info on who all was &#8220;stationed&#8221; at Isengard<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, if they are in the process of changing from ents to trees, that would involve more than mere physical changes.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Not an active pet, I guess<br />
 [Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. I think those &#8216;seeds of his downfall&#8217; started to get within him at the moment he became obsessed with the Ring&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it seems to be a mental process too.<br />
 [miriel] I agree Ringlordsander<br />
 [Darkover] And Merry and Pippin were useful to the war effort&#8211;if not for those two hobbits, the Ents wouldn&#8217;t have joined the war, and taken Isengard<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which links with an overarching theme of LOTR &#8212; it&#8217;s about magic fading from the world.<br />
 [selinahh] yeah<br />
 [Demosthenes] In this way Huorns are less than Ents.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, or psychological &#8211; either works.  But they seem to be in the process of losing the moral values of the ents, replacing it with anger.<br />
 [brennil] the Huorns were changing the Ents into trees? Did I here that right?<br />
 [Demosthenes] (although they may be fiercer)<br />
 [miriel] tolkien did love to write about the ending of things<br />
 [PippinFTW] But he never had it, Ringlord. That&#8217;s probably the biggest difference. If Saruman had the Ring, would he become like Gollum?<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: gmta<br />
 [selinahh] &#8230;<br />
 [Goldberry] More like Sauron, pippin<br />
 [miriel] brennil: the hourns are ents, changing into trees<br />
 [Darkover] No, Gollum was too weak to wield the One Ring<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, replacing positive values with negative ones would mean a moral degradation, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Darkover] Saruman would have become like Sauron, I think<br />
 [brennil] thanks, miriel<br />
 [PippinFTW] Probably, Goldberry. Forgot about that option<br />
 [Ringlordsander] PippinFTW. With &#8216;because of the Ring&#8217; I mean with Saruman that he would&#8217;ve been prepared to do anything to get in possession of the Ring when he would&#8217;ve gotten the chance..<br />
 [Darkover] I always got the impression that the huorns weren&#8217;t big on rational thought&#8211;they were like Ents turned animalistic<br />
 [ChristineGolden] which would be symbolized by the huorns becoming &#8216;lesser beings.&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] it could do. Or amorality. Which is slightly different. and more appropriate to nature i think?<br />
 [selinahh] :syes he would<br />
 [PippinFTW] Oh, ok Ringlord<br />
 [Pete_R] ChristineGolden, I don&#8217;t remember reading that huorns actually *become* ents and vice-versa. It seemed more that ents can become tree-ish, and huorns can wake up and become a little entish. Of course, I&#8217;m old, so my brain doesn&#8217;t work so well, any more.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [brennil] PippinFTW: perhaps. Maybe he wasn&#8217;t like gollum because he only thought of the ring and still had some of his own power<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Hmm, amorality is the absence of values &#8211; not sure anger would fit in that definition.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] That&#8217;s how they are described in this chapter, Pete.<br />
 [Darkover] I think Saruman&#8217;s biggest sin, where he really started to go wrong, was thinking that because he was one of &#8220;the Wise,&#8221; that meant he had a right to rule everybody, tell them how to live<br />
 [brennil] interesting<br />
 [Pete_R] If I ever meet an ent, I&#8217;ll ask him.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Just my opinion, but that is the impression I get.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] lol<br />
 [PippinFTW] Saruman of Many Colours, Darkover!<br />
 [PippinFTW] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Right, and the white (purity) was broken, PippinFTW!<br />
 [Goldberry] I think so too darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Saruman&#8217;s biggest sin was Tolkien&#8217;s &#8220;favorite,&#8221; pride.<br />
 [Darkover] Thanks, Goldberry<br />
 [Pete_R] Saruman was prideful even before the istari were sent to ME, Darkover. It was hs downfall, eventually<br />
 [Darkover] Agreed, Chris and pete<br />
 [Pete_R] Pride goeth before destruction.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [thorin_oakenshield] hey guys and gals, i&#8217;m drawing Orthanc i&#8217;ll be back to show you, ok!<br />
 [PippinFTW] Probably too much pride because he is an Isatari, which goes back to the opinion of how superior he sees himself<br />
 [Darkover] and a haughty spirit before a fall<br />
 [miriel] Pete_R: true, he resented that gandalf was the one given a ring, not himself<br />
 [Pete_R] k, thorin_oakenshield<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He believe he could control the ring where others couldn&#8217;t because he was the smartest cookie in the box.<br />
 [Darkover] And lord knows, Saruman was haughty, although we have to wait for the next chapter to see how much.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Pete_R. I think Saruman&#8217;s downfall was his desire to have the Ring for his own. Not his pride&#8230;<br />
 [Darkover] Hey, I had forgotten that fact, Miriel. You&#8217;re right!<br />
 [miriel] I wonder if his want to have a ring himself might have been triggered by that event<br />
 [PippinFTW] But Ringlord he thought he could get the Ring easily because of his immense power<br />
 [Susanita] next chapter is one of my faves in the whole trilogy<br />
 [Pete_R] True, Miriel, and Saruman also resented that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council. And that Gandalf got all the best chocolate.<br />
 [Darkover] Ringlordsander, Saruman thought he had a right to the Ring, and to wield it, to rule everyone. How is that not a blatant manifestation of pride?<br />
 [Darkover] Mine too, Susanita<br />
 [miriel] indeed pete<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Pete<br />
 [PippinFTW] haha Pete. true<br />
 [miriel] often those best suited for power are those who do not seek it<br />
 [Pete_R] I disagrre, Ringlordsander, he even told Gandalf that he and they were better than everyone else. besides the two factors that Miriel and I just mentioned.<br />
 [Darkover] I&#8217;ve never been sure about that, Miriel, but Saruman definitely overreached himself.<br />
 [Susanita] Saruman good at false flattery<br />
 [Demosthenes] Pride leads to complacency. and this is what brings down Saruman.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Saruman just didn&#8217;t know when to stop because he didn&#8217;t think that he needed to.<br />
 [brennil] agreed miriel<br />
 [Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes and Pippin<br />
 [Pete_R] Grat point, Miri<br />
 [Demosthenes] He&#8217;s too busy looking at the big picture that he doesn&#8217;t see his own footings being eaten away<br />
 [PippinFTW] thanks Darkover<br />
 [Demosthenes] Until it&#8217;s too late.<br />
 [Demosthenes] So I agree there, i think.<br />
 [brennil] he lost his moral compass, seen when he began cross-breeding orcs<br />
 [idril] sorry just got on where r we in the chapter?<br />
 [Demosthenes] brennil: oh. you put me in mind of something.<br />
 [Darkover] I think he lost it long before that, brennil, but that act definitely confirmed it!<br />
 [Demosthenes] And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] supposedly, flotsam and jetsam.<br />
 [Demosthenes] but not particularly evil-looking<br />
 [Pete_R] dupes<br />
 [Darkover] So they were indeed Men, not orcs?<br />
 [sunshower] dunland men?<br />
 [Susanita] Aragorn talked about half-orcs<br />
 [Demosthenes] indeed. Dunlending I imagine.<br />
 [sunshower] eh<br />
 [brennil] yep, demosthenes, that&#8217;s definitely interesting<br />
 [Demosthenes] just &#8220;ordinary men&#8221;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I thought it interesting that the Ents allowed the men to escape.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] brennil: Not only by cross-breeding Orcs, also by deciding to cut down parts of Fangorn Forest. He was so arrogant that he had forgotten about the power of the Ents. That was one of the many factors that led to his downfall&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: more &#8220;led astray&#8221; and &#8220;redeemable&#8221;? perhaps?<br />
 [Pete_R] The ents&#8217; business was with Saryman and the orcs, I guess, Chris<br />
 [brennil] though, or is this just in the movie, he did breed half-orcs plus the dunlendings<br />
 [Goldberry] I didnt understand the half orcs<br />
 [Demosthenes] The ents and the huorns are certainly making moral judgements on culpability there.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Right, Ringlordsander! He didn&#8217;t even think that the Ents would rebel<br />
 [sunshower] half orc, half&#8230;..what?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I think Fangorn&#8217;s fight was with the orcs only, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Darkover] Well, why shouldn&#8217;t they? I like that about LotR&#8211;right is right, wrong is wrong<br />
 [sunshower] or are they orcish men?<br />
 [brennil] moral judgements are so confusing&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;I thought of him too,&#8217; said Aragorn. &#8216;We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm&#8217;s Deep.<br />
 [Pete_R] Good point, Ringlordsander<br />
 [Goldberry] Orcs= corrupted elves, half orc= ?<br />
 [Darkover] It is not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves, as Aragorn says elsewhere.<br />
 [Demosthenes] ^^ the &#8220;half-orcs&#8221;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] After the ents and huorns deal with the orcs, remember, they go home.  Not to Gondor, etc., but home.<br />
 [Susanita] Aragorn talked about half-orcs<br />
 [sunshower] is half orc, like half elf? not the DNA but the &#8230;.something else?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] There was a discussion about it in Barliman&#8217;s the other night.  Trust me, you don&#8217;t want to know what little canon exists on this one.<br />
 [Darkover] I think it is a matter of DNa, Sunshower, but you might be right.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Is a half-orc half orc, half Uruk-hai?<br />
 [Darkover] Half-orc, half-man, I think, PippinFTW<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Or possibly half-orc and half-elf.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Darkover: but there&#8217;s no certainty about that point, mind you&#8230;<br />
 [brennil] the Uruk-hai were the half orcs, I&#8217;m pretty sure<br />
 [Demosthenes] sunshower: i don&#8217;t know. and like christine says, i don&#8217;t think there are any definitive answers. my opinion is that our protaganists ideas are unreliable at this point and they&#8217;re guessing.<br />
 [Darkover] Demosthenes, want to weigh in on this? You would know, if anyone does<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Now, wanna talk about how that happened?<br />
 [Susanita] I thought Uruk-Hai were basically orcs on steroids<br />
 [Pete_R] I think half man, half orc<br />
 [Susanita] figuratively speaking<br />
 [sunshower] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] I don&#8217;t think we can take Aragorn&#8217;s statement at face value.<br />
 [brennil] why?<br />
 [Demosthenes] it&#8217;s a best guess<br />
 [Demosthenes] He&#8217;s not a wizard?<br />
 [Pete_R] yes, kinda, Susanita<br />
 [Demosthenes] I&#8217;d give Gandalf more credence.<br />
 [sunshower] so&#8230;.orcish in look and manner, maybe?<br />
 [brennil] but he has seen a lot&#8230;<br />
 [brennil] so what do we know Gandalf said?<br />
 [Darkover] Probably. I doubt if even Aragorn has made an in-depth study of orcs and half-orcs<br />
 [Susanita] there were those creepy guys in Bree<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Orcs were originally corrupted elves which means they were capable of having sex.  Shall I continue?<br />
 [Demosthenes] just like he is not versed in Ring-lore.<br />
 [selinahh] half orc, half elf?<br />
 [Darkover] Please, don&#8217;t, Chris, I agree, let&#8217;s talk about other aspects of the chapter.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Shall we move to Grima?<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Darkover: How could he have? Half-Orcs were bred by Saruman right? So Aragorn couldn&#8217;t have known their origins, because they were just created by the very person who is locked up in a tower and is not going to say a word&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] And his appearance<br />
 [brennil] did Aragorn get much of his learning from Gandalf?<br />
 [sunshower] shabby<br />
 [Radagast] A half orc is a being that is half orc half human. These half orcs or &#8220;goblin men&#8221; were used to breed with orcs of various breeds to make the Uruk-hai<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, there goes elrond&#8217;s wife and Galadriel&#8217;s daughter traveling between Rivendell and Lorien when she is waylaid by orcs.  Shall I continue?<br />
 [Susanita] Tolkien never talked about sex<br />
 [PippinFTW] It says on the LOTR wiki that half-orcs were used to breed Uruk-hai<br />
 [Pete_R] from Tolkien Gateway: &#8220;The origin and nature of the half-orcs is unknown. Saruman&#8217;s servants also included creatures known as Goblin-men who appeared to blend the traits of Men and Orcs. It is unclear if these beings are related to or synonymous with the half-orcs&#8221;<br />
 [Susanita] or &#8230; other things<br />
 [Darkover] Yeah, Ringlordsander, I doubt if Saruman is giving interviews at this point <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] &#8220;Breed&#8221; being the operative word.<br />
 [Susanita] yeah I think we get the point<br />
 [brennil] bye guys. nice discussion.<br />
 [Pete_R] Birdsong, are you a &#8220;Get Smart&#8221; fan?  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Birdsong] Pete_R, yep haha<br />
 [sunshower] &#8220;draggled rat&#8221;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] A detail in the chapter I found interesting:<br />
 [Pete_R] I should have said, &#8220;Don&#8217;t tell me that you&#8217;re a &#8216;Get Smart&#8217; fan.&#8221;<br />
 [Darkover] yes, Chris?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] It was Pippin, not Merry, who commented about Theoden being a good and lordly man.<br />
 [Birdsong] in any case Im guilty as charged<br />
 [Darkover] Okay&#8230;?<br />
 [Goldberry] That is interesting&#8230;<br />
 [PippinFTW] Okay, Cristine. So&#8230;?<br />
 [Pete_R] &#8220;I *asked* you not to tell me that you&#8217;re a &#8220;Get Smart&#8221; fan!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, it was Merry that ended up thinking of him as a father and who was with him when he died.<br />
 [Birdsong] lol in any case let&#8217;s stick to the topic [3<br />
 [Goldberry] Yeah<br />
 [Darkover] Pete: <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Pippin is more outspoken than Merry. so in that sense it&#8217;s not surprising?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, but both hobbits could admire him.<br />
 [Demosthenes] He shoots from the hip as it were.<br />
 [Susanita] Birdsong needs the cone of silence?<br />
 [Birdsong] hahaha<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I just thought it interesting, and wondered if perhaps it was deliberate on Tolkien&#8217;s part in light of later events.<br />
 [PippinFTW] I guess Merry was just in the right place at the right time<br />
 [Demosthenes] Merry is a bit more considered.<br />
 [PippinFTW] He did stay in Rohan, after all, so he became familiar with Theoden<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, but most authors would have gone for the obvious: having Merry praise Theoden.<br />
 [Darkover] Which one mentioned that the King of the Mark was very polite? I always found that amusing.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Pippin<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Pippin, that&#8217;s the comment I meant.<br />
 [Darkover] Figures<br />
 [Demosthenes] that was the end of the last chapter<br />
 [PippinFTW] At the end of &#8220;the Road to Isengard&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] The hobbits bowed low. &#8216;So that is the King of Rohan!&#8217; said Pippin in an undertone. &#8216;A fine old fellow. Very polite.&#8217;<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Pete_R] Seemed strange that Pippin, not Merry, would say that<br />
 [PippinFTW] First impressions!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, sorry, I always read the last few pages of the last-read chapter to get my bearings.  I must have mixed it up with this one in  my head.<br />
 [selinahh] <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Another strange thing, though really it shouldn&#8217;t be. Gandalf beats Grima to Isengard.<br />
 [Pete_R] Strange because?<br />
 [Darkover] Not really, IMO, Pete_R. Pippin is the younger one, probably less impressed by all the important folk he meets&#8211;Gandalf even warns him later, when they go to Gondor, against &#8220;hobbit pertness.&#8221;<br />
 [PippinFTW] Not too surprising since Gandalf has Shadowfax<br />
 [Birdsong] Maybe Grima dallied a bit somewhere?<br />
 [Goldberry] Shadowfax is pretty fast<br />
 [Demosthenes] I dunno. I mean yes, shadowfax.<br />
 [Darkover] I doubt if he dallied. I just think Shadowfax was faster.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, Gandalf is riding Shadowfax and I assume Grima was given some old nag.  The Riders of the Mark were hardly going to give Grima one of their best horses.<br />
 [Demosthenes] And maybe Grima was in no real hurry?<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe no horse would bear him, as Eomer suggested.<br />
 [Birdsong] It&#8217;s probably the case but I just wanted to throw in an extra option!<br />
 [Demosthenes] ie: reluctant to rejoin Saruman<br />
 [Pete_R] But Merry ended up staying with Theoden, Darkover, that&#8217;s why I thought it was odd that Tolkien would write it that way (not so much that Pippin might think it)<br />
 [PippinFTW] But you&#8217;d imagine that all Rohan horses were top-notch<br />
 [PippinFTW] Even the scrawny ones aren&#8217;t bad<br />
 [Pete_R] Grima was on that swayback horse.<br />
 [Darkover] That is a thought, Demosthenes. I mean, Grima had nowhere else to go, but I doubt if he wanted to report his failures to Saruman/<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I think Grima would have beat a path to Saruman &#8211; remember, he didn&#8217;t know about the defeat at Helms Deep.<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Pete, as Chris observed, Tolkien didn&#8217;t always go for the obvious.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: and when he gets there he says &#8220;all my messages are useless now&#8221;<br />
 [PippinFTW] But maybe Grima spent a lot of time thinking whether to tell Saruman in the first place<br />
 [Pete_R] I don&#8217;t think tha Grima wanted to be in Rohan *or* in Ortanc, at the time<br />
 [Darkover] Right. What if Saruman said, so *you* are useless now?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, but Grima&#8217;s a coward; he wouldn&#8217;t want to be out in the wild, unprotected.  He would seek safety.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;&#8221;Let me go away!&#8221; he whined. &#8220;Let me go away! My messages are useless now.&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;&#8221;They are indeed,&#8221; said Treebeard. &#8220;But you have only two choices: to stay with me until Gandalf and your master arrive; or to cross the water. Which will you have?&#8221;<br />
 [Pete_R] Right, Chris. Like going to the dentist, even though you don&#8217;t wnt to<br />
 [Darkover] Didn&#8217;t Tolkien state elsewhere that Grima ran into the Nazgul along the way, or am I thinking of another occasion?<br />
 [sunshower] Grima shoulda stayed<br />
 [Darkover] If so, Wormtongue might have wanted to reach Saruman, in the hope the wizard could protect him.<br />
 [PippinFTW] Or maybe Grima spent a lot of time avoiding Rohirrim, so if he did have a path, he couldn&#8217;t use it in case he crosses paths  with people<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Not in this chapter, Darkover, although it may be mentioned elsewhere.<br />
 [Pete_R] He did write that somewhere, Darkover.<br />
 [Goldberry] I always thought saruman might have had a kind of hold on grima<br />
 [idril] that was a different time, Darkover<br />
 [Darkover] If Grima was the type to stay, Sunshower, I doubt if he would have turned traitor in the first place.<br />
 [Pete_R] It&#8217;s not in LOTR, though<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: yes. that is in Hunt for the Ring. but happened far earlier than these events.<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, idril<br />
 [Goldberry] Like mental hold<br />
 [Darkover] Sorry, my mistake then.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The strong-willed can always control the weak, Goldberry.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I wonder where Wormtongue would have gone. Had Treebeard not forced him to the choice.<br />
 [idril] no prob. i think it was when the nazgul were telling him to tell Saruman that he should mind his own business about the Dark Lord&#8217;s affairs. i think.<br />
 [Darkover] It wasn&#8217;t as if anyone wanted grima at this point<br />
 [Pete_R] Good point, Demz. I have no idea<br />
 [Demosthenes] I dunno either. Bree?<br />
 [Demosthenes] far, far away?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Did anyone really ever want him, Darkover?  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] lol, Chris<br />
 [Susanita] good point CG<br />
 [Darkover] Certainly not Eowyn!<br />
 [Pete_R] Prett far away, on a swayback horse, with no survival skills is Bree<br />
 [Goldberry] Saruman must have wanted him once<br />
 [Goldberry] To use him<br />
 [Yavanna] Nahh he didnt really want him, as he found him<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Saruman may have found him useful when he was a counselor to Theoden, Goldberry, but that&#8217;s probably as far as it went.<br />
 [Goldberry] As a?<br />
 [Yavanna] Useful servant that was stupid enough to believe he would grt power and follow orders<br />
 [Demosthenes] What is Grima&#8217;s use to Saruman now?<br />
 [Susanita] not much<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;&#8221;Well, he has gone in,&#8221; he said when he returned. &#8220;I saw him crawling up the steps like a draggled rat. There is someone in the tower still: a hand came out and pulled him in. So there he is, and I hope the welcome is to his liking.<br />
 [Goldberry] Nothing<br />
 [Darkover] Being his footman, I guess, as Gandalf says in the next chapter<br />
 [Susanita] no more Rohirrim intel<br />
 [sunshower] grima&#8217;s new job: whipping post<br />
 [TolkienGirl] Guys? What are we talking about?<br />
 [Darkover] lol<br />
 [Demosthenes] Grima mostly.<br />
 [Susanita] we are talking about the chapter in TTT<br />
 [Yavanna] Sunshower: or commanding the orc pooper scooper <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Susanita] &#8220;Flotsam and Jetsam&#8221;<br />
 [Darkover] If I can shut up and stay on topic<br />
 [idril] lol Yavanna<br />
 [TolkienGirl] Oh okay.<br />
 [FreeLOTR] which chapter?<br />
 [Goldberry] Lol darkover<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;He was,&#8217; said Aragorn; &#8216;and also Saruman&#8217;s spy and servant in Rohan. Fate has not been kinder to him than he deserves. The sight of the ruin of all that he thought so strong and magnificent must have been almost punishment enough. But I fear that worse awaits him.&#8217;<br />
 [Susanita] &#8220;Flotsam and Jetsam&#8221;<br />
 [Susanita] it&#8217;s in the topic <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [FreeLOTR] love that one <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] I think that Aragorn has a lesser opinion of Grima than of Saruman.<br />
 [Demosthenes] That&#8217;s not very flattering at all.<br />
 [idril] bye guys! good discussions<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Saruman did abuse his power more, IMO<br />
 [Darkover] bye, idril<br />
 [Yavanna] Yeah, well at least saruman has a little dignity<br />
 [idril] Bye!<br />
 [Susanita] Grima is your classic sycophant (sp?)<br />
 [FreeLOTR] Grima was almost like an animal<br />
 [Darkover] Yeah, Susanita, he is<br />
 [Darkover] hence the nickname, &#8220;wormtongue<br />
 [Demosthenes] I imagine the tongue of the serpent tells big big fibs<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Reminded me of Peter Pettigrew in HP.<br />
 [Birdsong] I think the title also impies that he is persuasive<br />
 [Yavanna] Oh i thought wormtongue came fftom the fact that everything that came out of his mouth was as low as dirt<br />
 [Susanita] or Crabb and Goyle<br />
 [Darkover] maybe also, his nickname indicated he was like a dragon, when it came to speech that deceives and ensnares<br />
 [Birdsong] implies* ].[<br />
 [Demosthenes] (could even be a ref to Paradise Lost)<br />
 [TolkienGirl] Bye.<br />
 [Darkover] bye, TolkienGirl<br />
 [Birdsong] Bye, TG<br />
 [Yavanna] Byee!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Or it could be a play on words, Yavanna: wormtongue and wormwood.<br />
 [Susanita] man with no eyebrows<br />
 [Goldberry] Worming his way out of trouble<br />
 [Yavanna] Yes goldberry<br />
 [Demosthenes] Did we talk about how even Ents can get angry?<br />
 [Darkover] There are a lot of possibilities in that nickname<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Ah! good one, Demosthenes!<br />
 [Susanita] and how!<br />
 [Demosthenes] Like, really furious.<br />
 [Darkover] It takes awhile, but when they are roused, they are fearsome indeed<br />
 [Susanita] Don&#8217;t Mess with Entsas<br />
 [Demosthenes] An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.<br />
 [Goldberry] Kinda berserk<br />
 [Demosthenes] One of them, Beechbone I think he was called, a very tall handsome Ent, got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;That sent them mad. I thought that they had been really roused before; but I was wrong. I saw what it was like at last. It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Goldberry: beserk Ents. Yes.<br />
 [Yavanna] I wonder what would happen in a fight between them and their long lost ent women??<br />
 [Darkover] That sounds too &#8220;smackdown&#8221; for me<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The ent husbands would have lost the fight, of course.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Goldberry] Lol<br />
 [Demosthenes] It also shows us how Orthanc is different<br />
 [Yavanna] Hahaha christinegolden. Exactly <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them. It is very smooth and hard. Some wizardry is in it, perhaps, older and stronger than Saruman&#8217;s.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Numenorean wizardry.<br />
 [Goldberry] Ah<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think it&#8217;s an interesting contrast that the stonework of Saruman, the great wizard, can be destroyed by the ents, but&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Same as the first wall of Minas Tirith.<br />
 [Darkover] Good magic, not bad<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Orthanc, built by the Numenoreans cannot even be marred.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Unless the earth itself was to twist, i think.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think that&#8217;s what&#8217;s said later about MT.<br />
 [Yavanna] Is the same true for Barad-dur, i wonder?<br />
 [Goldberry] What was it that galadriel said about good&#038;bad magic?<br />
 [Birdsong] The stone itself losing virtue as virtue is lost?<br />
 [Darkover] Something about how Men seemed to use the same word to describe the power of the Enemy<br />
 [Demosthenes] Yavanna: I don&#8217;t think so. though the foundations seem linked to the One Ring.<br />
 [Goldberry] Oh yes<br />
 [Darkover] So she wasn&#8217;t sure how to answer the question of whether or not the Elves used &#8220;magic.&#8221;<br />
 [Goldberry] Thats right, i remember now<br />
 [Darkover] I think to Elves, especially the older ones, magic is as natural as breathing, or using tools is to Men<br />
 [Demosthenes] In some ways magic seems to be a technique. I guess that&#8217;s what we have here.<br />
 [Darkover] So they are puzzled when someone who doesn&#8217;t have that experience, requires an explanation.<br />
 [Yavanna] Yes<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Or perhaps what may have once simply been extraordinary engineering skills later appeared to be magic, like people in the Dark Ages looking back at the remnants of Rome.<br />
 [Darkover] Also a possibility, Chris<br />
 [Goldberry] Yes<br />
 [Demosthenes] Mmmmm. Apparently roman concrete was very different. And better. Damascene steel.<br />
 [sunshower] Any standout Tolkien lines in this chapter for anyone?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Lots of examples of that sort of thing in history.<br />
 [Yavanna] Well yes, butthis implies the same thing, that magic used to be natural and easy, but for new generations, its impossibly hard<br />
 [Demosthenes] Mayan/Incan stonework.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Like with the dwarves of Durin, many techniques that seem to be superior have been lost to time.<br />
 [Goldberry] Sunshower: havnt read it in a while&#8230;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, but I still think that there was real magic in ME, things like Gandalf using his staff to &#8220;permit a little light.&#8221;<br />
 [Yavanna] Stonehenge, the pyramids, easter island, etc<br />
 [Demosthenes] We see a lot of that when we arrive in Gondor.<br />
 [Darkover] &#8220;It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another.&#8221; That linfe of Aragorn stands out for me, Sunshower.<br />
 [Susanita] I kinda think of Elf magic as super heightened awareness<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The mirror of Galadriel and the Girdle of Melian.<br />
 [Darkover] Or a super-kinship with nature, Susanita<br />
 [Demosthenes] And Orthanc is an example. A marvellous construction that people look at and go &#8220;how did they do that?&#8221;<br />
 [Susanita] that too<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe both<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The phial Galadriel gave to Frodo, &#8220;to be a light when all others go out.&#8221;<br />
 [Pete_R] Gotta go. Bye, all. Thanks, Demosthenes<br />
 [Demosthenes] Those things are becoming fewer though. Like the ents? Rarer, maybe.<br />
 [Susanita] I love that phial<br />
 [Goldberry] Me too, bye!<br />
 [Darkover] bye, Pete_R!<br />
 [Darkover] see you next time, Goldberry!<br />
 [Yavanna] Are we talking about quotes from the whole trilogy, or from flotsam and jetsam?<br />
 [Goldberry] Cya all!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Perhaps it&#8217;s another difference between men and elves.<br />
 [Susanita] mostly just the chapter&#8230;&#8230;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think F&#038;J went out the window awhile ago, Yavanna.<br />
 [Yavanna] Bye goldberry!<br />
 [Yavanna] Hahaha<br />
 [Susanita] but we sometimes get further afield as the convo continues<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think we&#8217;ve covered most of the chapter?<br />
 [Darkover] I think so<br />
 [Demosthenes] Points we&#8217;ve missed?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Did we talk the longbottom leaf over enough?<br />
 [sunshower] &#8220;We understand it all perfectly now&#8221;&#8211;Gimli<br />
 [Susanita] I liked the &#8220;Strider was always here&#8221; bit<br />
 [Susanita] as an aside<br />
 [Darkover] Only Aragorn picked up on the significance of finding that leaf at Isengard.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, I&#8217;d like to raise a point about that longbottom leaf when the regular discussion is over, Demosthenes, if you don&#8217;t mind.<br />
 [Demosthenes] suse: oh yes. i did like that too. like i mentioned early on, there is a feeling of (hobbity) homlinessto thgis chapter.<br />
 [Yavanna] What? That the scouring of the shire had begun?<br />
 [Darkover] He decided to mention it to Gandalf, and I think that is why&#8211;many chapters later, when the wizard and the hobbits are traveling back to the Shire&#8211;Gandalf mentions that things might not be what the hobbits expect.<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: sure.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;All except one thing,&#8217; said Aragorn: &#8216;leaf from the Southfarthing in Isengard. The more I consider it, the more curious I find it. I have never been in Isengard, but I have journeyed in this land, and I know well the empty countries that lie between Rohan and the Shire. Neither goods nor folk have passed that way for many a long year, not openly.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Now this is somewhere Aragorn /does/ have expertise.<br />
 [Darkover] And, like a King, he is thinking ahead, and about the meaning of facts.<br />
 [Demosthenes] &#8216;Ah well, whatever evil was afoot is over now, I hope; or else it is beyond our reach at present,&#8217; said Aragorn. &#8216;Yet I think I shall mention it to Gandalf, small matter though it may seem among his great affairs.&#8217;<br />
 [ChristineGolden] But he&#8217;s not really thinking ahead because events are already happening in the Shire, Demosthenes.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] darkover.  sorry.<br />
 [Demosthenes] And this. Is that forshadowing For Gandalf leaving the hobbits just before the scouring?<br />
 [Susanita] I always wonder about G leaving them to that<br />
 [Darkover] I would say so, Demosthenes. I did, in fact, a moment ago.<br />
 [Demosthenes] It&#8217;s a thoery!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I think it&#8217;s a device for the remaining Fellowship to catch up with each other and fill in the blanks for the reader.<br />
 [Susanita] but we&#8217;ll get there some time next year <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] you beat me too the punch <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Yavanna] How did i not notice this foreshadowing??<br />
 [Darkover] GMTA<br />
 [ChristineGolden] After all, they could hardly sit around and chitchat with the &#8220;high and mighty&#8221; there.<br />
 [Darkover] Well, this chapter does cover a lot more immediate things, Yavanna. It&#8217;s easy to do<br />
 [LadyInvisible] Hey Susanita, I remember you from a long time here <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] And there are little things dropped along the way that get picked up later<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, get rid of Gandalf, Theoden, Eomer, etc., and let the old friends catch up.<br />
 [Susanita] likewise <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [LadyInvisible] Hey yhere Darkover <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Yavanna] And possibly its just so unnatural to imagine anything bad happening to the shire<br />
 [sunshower] more F&#038;J demz?<br />
 [LadyInvisible] Hey Lady <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] yeah<br />
 [Demosthenes] there&#8217;s rubbish everywhere in this chapter <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, but Tolkien does that throughout the book, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Darkover] Probably, the Shire does seem like the safest place in M-E. It is so conventional.<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think the title makes us think of it more here.<br />
 [Darkover] But of course, that doesn&#8217;t mean bad things can&#8217;t happen.<br />
 [Susanita] and sheltered &#8230; almost cloistered<br />
 [Yavanna] What about the different hobbit calanders?<br />
 [Demosthenes] it&#8217;s a wink and a nudge, perhaps.<br />
 [Darkover] I always thought the title of this chapter referred to Merry and Pippin, as much as anything.<br />
 [Birdsong] lgbt Hobbits might not be so safe there, then<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t know, Demosthenes, I think we&#8217;re also supposed to think about wreckage and destruction, not just the cargo, odds and ends.<br />
 [Lady_Celebrian] ].]<br />
 [Darkover] They were the &#8220;flotsam and jetsam&#8221; of the battle&#8211;carried along by the current, but not unimportant.<br />
 [Darkover] And of course, this is a title that ties up a lot of loose ends.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] That is an [ahem] very good point, Darkover.<br />
 [Yavanna] I thought it meant the turning of the tides between Gandalf and saruman<br />
 [ChristineGolden] That doesn&#8217;t come until the next chapter, Yavanna.<br />
 [Demosthenes] That is indeed next chapter. And that might be a good note to conclude on?<br />
 [Yavanna] Oh oops :s<br />
 * Birdsong chirps inside of Susanita &#8216;s pockets<br />
 [sunshower] yep<br />
 [Darkover] Sounds good. I think we&#8217;ve discussed everything.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Sweet. Thanks for a great chat everyone. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
<b>Session Close: Sun Jun 30 09:52:37 2013</b></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>San Diego Comic-Con &amp; More on TORn TUESDAY Weekly Webcast!</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/09/75482-san-diego-comic-con-more-on-torn-tuesday-weekly-webcast/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/09/75482-san-diego-comic-con-more-on-torn-tuesday-weekly-webcast/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 23:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Cliff Quickbeam Broadway</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ComicCon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ComicCon Rumos]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Director news]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Director Rumors]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Movie Rumors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MrCere in New Zealand]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Out on a Limb]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Jackson]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Production]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[TORn TUESDAYS Live!]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=75482</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Today join us again for our weekly webcast TORn TUESDAY, as we our big presence at the upcoming San Diego Comic-Con as we present all the juicy dish on THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG! Let&#8217;s have a closer look at what brings such huge interest and different fandoms together at this amazing show &#8212; [...]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/02/74841-new-torn-tuesday-live-webcast-today-dos-video-blog/torn-tuesday-300-250-6/" rel="attachment wp-att-74842"><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-74842" alt="TORN-Tuesday-300-250" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/TORN-Tuesday-300-250.png" width="300" height="250" /></a>Today join us again for our weekly webcast TORn TUESDAY, as we our big presence at the upcoming San Diego Comic-Con as we present all the juicy dish on THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG!</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s have a closer look at what brings such huge interest and different fandoms together at this amazing show &#8212; and prep you for what we will reveal <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/05/75052-torn-is-heading-to-san-diego-comic-con-are-you/">during our presentation</a>! Bring your questions and comments to the chat!</p>
<p>We launch <a href="http://www.theonering.net/live">TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific:</a> brought to you by host Clifford &#8220;Quickbeam&#8221; Broadway and producer Justin &#8220;I Make Excellent T-shirts&#8221; Sewell &#8212; Our innovative <a href="http://www.theonering.net/live">live show</a> includes worldwide fans who join us on the <a href="http://www.theonering.net/live">Live Event page</a> with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman&#8217;s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!</p>
<p>WE APOLOGIZE that there is no available archive of this particular installment on our YouTube channel &#8212;- it was a &#8220;sneak preview&#8221; after all!</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Follow us on Twitter:  @theoneringnet</p>
<p>Follow Cliff Broadway:  @quickbeam2000</p>
<p>Like us on Facebook:  www.facebook.com/theoneringnet</p>
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