A couple of weekends ago, we dived into the big battle of The Two Towers as we discussed Helm’s Deep (Book III, Chapter VII) in Hall of Fire.

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 15 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be moving onto the next chapter as we examine the events of The Road to Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Jun 02 07:33:34 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for this weekend: Helm’s Deep | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay, we might as well get started. Latecomers can catch up.
[Puma] okie
[ChristineGolden] Okay, back.
[esther] ok
[Stozzi] ok boss man :3
[Eruanna] Okay
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to note that this chapter is much shorter than the preceding one?
[Puma] all battle chapters in lotr are short
[Demosthenes] Yeah. And that’s really rather interesting.
[esther] I have to be honest, I haven’t gotten to Two Towers yet, so I really only know the movie battle scene
[Puma] i dont think jrr wanted to dwell on the battle itself
[Demosthenes] You get some (pulp) fantasy novelists who base their entire works around battle and hack n slash. But not Tolkien.
[esther] probably not Puma
[Puma] also…..jrr did one battle in detail……the nirnaeth in the sil…i dont think he thought he could top that
[Ingie] nirnaeth is hardly toppable hello, by the way
[esther] that’s Silmarillion right Puma?
[Puma] and also as a vet….i am sure battles did not bring back good memories
[Demosthenes] Do you think we still get the feel of “war buddies” coming through though?
[Puma] yes esther
[Demosthenes] As in, friendship forged in the crucible of war.
[esther] I have to get some more Tolkien books
[Puma] i think we see that…jrr made that point.big friendships werwe forged in this chapter
[esther] I believe so Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt after his experiences in WWI, Tolkien was interested in guts and gore.
[esther] I agree
[Eruanna] I think so, like with Eomer and Aragorn they often say they want to ride into battle together
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i wonder at that also… and that might explain the conciseness of this chapter.
[Puma] yes Eruanna
[Puma] but also eomer and gimli
[Demosthenes] puma: Eomer and Aragorn … Legolas and Gimli?
[Erestel] And of course, Legolas and Gimli with their kill-count game.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] To some extent Theoden and Aragorn also.
[esther] Legolas and Gimli became fast friends during battle
[Puma] but legolas and gimli were not together in the battle
[Demosthenes] Though perhaps that is more a commander/chief advisor role?
[Puma] they were friends since lorien
[Demosthenes] s/role/relationship
[Ingie] the characters don’t really perceive the battles as bloody and gory mess, do they?
[Stozzi] i liked the challenge that legolas and gimli had through out that battle , counting how many orcs they’d killed
[Ingie] it’s more of a simple good/evil contest
[Eruanna] I think their friendship was strengthened in the battle
[Puma] not really.lots of greys
[Puma] legolas and gimli were not together during the battle!!
[esther] Ingie I don’t think they saw the battles as bloody messes, I think they saw it for what it was, saving their world
[Demosthenes] Ingie: no, you see that more from the perspective of the hobbits. Sam with the Easterling. And Merry and Pippin’s perspective at the Pelennor.
[Puma] i dont think they saw it as saving the world……just survive the battle
[esther] I agree with Demosthenes, Ingie
[Demosthenes] And that’s an interesting dualism too. Helm’s Deep gets very much a heroic, broad brush portrayal. Rather than a gritty, realistic one.
* Puma nods
[ChristineGolden] That had to have been a very bloody battle, ester, with axes and swords. I think Tolkien preferred to dwell on other aspects.
[Eruanna] Puma, from memory I think they say to people to tell the other how many they’ve killed and also ask if they have seen them
[Darkover] Mae govannen, Chris and everyone!
[Puma] but did you all notice…..when gandalf left the riders….he knew the ents were at isengard
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Demosthenes and Puma!
[Darkover] What are we discussing?
[esther] of course he wanted to concentrate on something other then the battles
[Puma] legolas saw the shadow coming to isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Stozzi] Yes cause gandalf spoke with the ents, when treebread had merry and pippen right?
[Demosthenes] Helm’s Deep. And … the heroic nature of the battle in its portrayal.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover!
[Puma] also the battles of the fords of isen contribute to this chapter…as the end parts of that in UT.took place at the same time
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[ChristineGolden] What do you mean by ‘heroic,’ Demosthenes?
[esther] Hi Baumbart
[Darkover] Hey, Baumbart
[Demosthenes] If i wanted to pick some elements that I think reinforce that feeling most, I’d pick the charge of Theoden at the end, and the horn of helm and its effect on the opposing host of orcs.
[esther] as the heroic part?
[Puma] i think of aragorn standing on the ramparts…and warning the uruks and dunlendings
[ChristineGolden] Okay, I agree with those ones, but I didn’t really think the chapter was ‘heroic’ in the traditional sense.
[esther] what is “heroic” in the traditional sense
[Puma] that is why jrr was so good.he is not traditional
[Demosthenes] puma: yes, that is an odd parley as well.
[Darkover] I personally like it when Aragorn and Eomer draw swords together–for the first time, I believe
[ChristineGolden] Medieval, ester, as in knights in shining armor, etc.
[esther] well I guess I’m more into non-traditional
[Ingie] also, there wasn’t the conflict of slaughtering the dunlendings (while the haradrim were shown to be real humans worth of pity)… so once again, balck/white heroism here. No ambiguity
[Puma] i know people always think of rohan as medieval.jrr said it was not
[Ingie] because the dunlendings weren’t really mentioned, at least not their deaths
[brennil] we don’t need knights in shining armer…Rangers in cloaks work better
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t sat that Rohan was medieval, Puma. I was speaking of the battle itself.
[Puma] well no Ingie.the dunlendings surrendered and were given terms and released
[Darkover] If we wanted shades of gray, Ingie, we would probably read modern novels. Personally, I like the fact that in a fairy tale, good and evil are pretty clear-cut
[esther] I agree Brennil I prefer rangers over knights
[Erestel] The Silmarillion had plenty of grey characters, but that’s another discussion.
[esther] I agree Darkover, I love fairy tales for being so clear
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover, with people having to take a stand for one or the other. And nothing does that more than a battle.
[Puma] lotr all the characters are grey
[Darkover] True, Chris and Esther
[Darkover] just the cloaks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Ingie] I love lotr and the good/evil contest simply saying that this is not the case of gritty realistic war
[Puma] nope.people
[Darkover] and the occasional wizard
[esther] lol true it is the cloaks that are grey
[brennil] gritty realistic war is more about greed than good/evil
[Puma] so do you all see the contest between legolas and gimli as to who killed the most…an enviable trait
[esther] I agree again Brennil, real war is about greed
[Demosthenes] puma: It has a sort of gallows humour about it.
[ChristineGolden] No, ester, all wars are about power at their roots. Even the one we’re supposed to be talking about.
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] Aragorn never counted
[brennil] nope, Puma. I see the pity and little bloodlust more enviable
[Darkover] Frankly, Puma, I don’t have a problem with it. When the enemy is knocking down your door, trying to kill innocent people, I frankly don’t blame someone who takes a bit of pride in how many he has killed
[Demosthenes] It’s the sort of things soldiers in the trenches might do to try and stop themselves going mad.
[Darkover] If that is bloodthirsty, then pass the Type O
[Puma] just making a point….no person in lotr is “perfect”
[Elemmire] lol
[Elemmire] its true though
[esther] well Chris at least there’s a clear line between good and evil in fantasy, the the real world its not so clear
[ChristineGolden] Patton’s men nailed the ears of German soldiers they had killed to posts.
[Xanaseb] ouch
[ChristineGolden] Really, ester? Because I can think of a list of wars that were between good and evil.
[Puma] and was that “good” Christine?
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking of fighter and bomber squadrons that would mark kills on the fuselages of their planes.
[brennil] they were already dead, Xanaseb
[ChristineGolden] I think so, Puma, but ymmv.
[Xanaseb] still brutal.
[Xanaseb] in anycase
[brennil] I think the lack of respect for enemies shown after death is not a good thing
[Xanaseb] indeed
[Darkover] And I’ve heard of soldiers, in many wars, who would put notches on their rifles for every enemy they killed. It doesn’t shock me.
[Puma] i think jrr was making the point that war is brutal…..and people do things that are normally not in character
[Elemmire] I agree with demosthenes, it does seen like a way of keeping focussed on something
[Xanaseb] indeed Puma.
[esther] in the real world, there aren’t any wars nowadays that have a fine line between good and evil, but that’s just my own opinion, no one has to agree with me
[Elemmire] agree, puma
[brennil] good point Puma and Elemmire
[Darkover] Probably, Elemmire
[Demosthenes] No, I’m not at all shocked. How do we know that Von Ritchofen was the best flying ace in WWI? Someone kept count.
[Eruanna] I think that on ships they used to put notches in cannons for how many battles they were in… or something similar
[Puma] oh.its not shocking.thats the point.was is brutal and people do things not really to be proud about
[Elemmire] So, we can conclude lots of people did it
[Puma] war is brutal
[Darkover] It seems to me that in war, people do what they have to do, and never having been in combat myself, I am not going to judge anyone who keeps a tally or the like, if it helps them get through it.
[Demosthenes] That being said, it is possibly more notable that Aragorn /does not/ keep count.
[Demosthenes] Why do you think?
[Darkover] Maybe he stopped counting long ago, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] and aragorn probaly killed more than legoalas and gimli
[brennil] he is quite old
[esther] that was interesting to me, that Aragorn never kept count
[brennil] and Legolas and Gimli were having “friendly” competition
[Puma] Aragorn is way younger than either legolas or gimli
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one possibility. he seems to have fought for both rohan and gondor in his youth.
[Darkover] And has fought many battles, for Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[brennil] :s oh. miscaculation.
[Darkover] Is Aragorn younger than Gimli?
[Elemmire] well, we don’t know that he never counted…he just didn’t make light of it as legolas and gimli did
[Puma] yes
[Puma] by many yrs
[esther] yes everyone in all the realms seem to know Aragorn way before the time of LOTR
[Elemmire] it is probable that legolas has been in many battles, given how old he is
[Erestel] Yes, Darkover. I think Gimli was around 160 years old during The Lord of the Rings.
[Puma] gimli was 62 in 2941 when aragorn was 10 in the hobit
[Xanaseb] I know this might sound silly, but maybe it is done in a more humorous way?.. that they are counting usually brings a smile to the reader’s face.. .. I think we might be thinking a little too much into this
[Xanaseb] IMO.
[Darkover] Possibly, Xanaseb
[Puma] agreed Xana
[Demosthenes] Aragorn also has more of a commander’s responsibilities here.
[Elemmire] Yeah, I think that it can be seen either way
[Erestel] My mistake, Gimli was 140.
[Demosthenes] He virtually acts as Theoden’s second in command
[Darkover] Also very true, Demosthenes
[Puma] well…..no.he was just a knight serving theoden
[Demosthenes] Eomer defers to him
[Darkover] And Aragorn props up Theoden’s morale, as I recall
[ChristineGolden] afk
[brennil] mutual respect?
[Puma] again aragorn and eomer were separated at the major part of the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he does seem to do that.
[Elemmire] A lot of that, of course being Aragorn being who he is
[Darkover] Agreed, Elemmire
[Elemmire] if anyone understood that…
[Eruanna] Perhaps Theoden sees him as a king or a rightful one and therefore respected him and saw him as an equal
[Elemmire] Aragorn does have tha bility to make people follow him but would they have, if they didn’t know who he was
[Darkover] I understand it to mean that Aragorn is a leader, and that is obvious in his conduct, although he never tries to overrule or overreach King Theoden
[Puma] this chapter also forges what will be a lifelong bond between aragorn and eomer
[Elemmire] *the ability
[Darkover] Right, puma
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] Darkover: he does defer to Theoden’s right to command his men. One wonders whether he doubted Theoden’s decision to ride out at the dawn.
[Puma] Aragorn understood the minds of the rohirrim.as he had been among them b4
[Elemmire] uh…I have a question
[Demosthenes] sure
[Darkover] If he did doubt it, he seems to have kept it to himself
[ChristineGolden] fussy baby – maybe I’ll have better luck next week. gotta go~ ~ ~
[Darkover] bye, Chris
[Darkover] ask away, Elemmire
[Xanaseb] go ahead Elemmire.
[Erestel] We’re all ears.
[Elemmire] The men of Rohan are referred to as many things, Rohirrim, Eorlingas etc. Is there any difference in these terms and, if so, can someone explain please?
[Puma] they all mean horse people
[Darkover] Didn’t rohirrim mean “horse lords,” and Eorlingas mean the people of Eorl the Young?
[Demosthenes] Eorlingas is something like sons of Eorl.
[esther] good question Elemmire, I’ve been wondering what each one meant
[Puma] yes.
[Erestel] Rohirrim is the general term for a man of Rohan. Eorlingas is a term used for men descended from Eorl the Young. There are also Helmlingas, men descended from Helm Hammerhand.
[Puma] but eo means horse
[Darkover] I think Rohan was the name of their kingdom that was given them by the people of Gondor–the name, that is
[Eruanna] I think they have different linguistic origins, but i may be wrong
[Darkover] and I think their name for themselves was Eorlingas
[Puma] in rohan their country was called the riddermark
[Stozzi] arent the people of rohan known as the horse people ? (cant think of correct name for this XD)
[esther] all I know is that Rohan is the realm of the horse-lords
[Stozzi] THERE we go thanks esther :’D
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, sorry I’m late. I was on an archaeological dig at a Late Woodland Indian village with the Fell Beasts
[Demosthenes] Helmlingas would probably be specifically used FOR and ABOUT the men of Westfold.
[esther] you’re welcome Stozzi
[Puma] roch is horse in sindarin
[Demosthenes] That’s my guess anyhow.
[Darkover] Hello, jennie! Hope you and the fell beasts had a good dig
[Elemmire] There’s so many different terms, thank you
[Puma] eo is horse in rohirric
[Elemmire] hey jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks!
[Elemmire] I’m less confused now
[Puma] gday jennie
[Jenniearcheo] gday
[Xanaseb] Jennie hey
[Jenniearcheo] Seb
[Xanaseb] Lasak hey
[Lasak] hello
[esther] I’m not confused anymore either about the different names of the horse-lords
[Jenniearcheo] I missed it. But I’ll live
[Demosthenes] Perhaps at this point it might be good to return to the chapter, and the intelligence that draws Gandalf away.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] And leads him to tell Theoden to head for Helm’s Deep
[Elemmire] hmm
[Lasak]
[Puma] Leolas saw the shadow decending towards isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] first this: ‘Many miles lie between,’ said Legolas, gazing thither and shading his eyes with his long hand. ‘I can see a darkness. There are shapes moving in it, great shapes far away upon the bank of the river; but what they are I cannot tell. It is not mist or cloud that defeats my eyes:
[Darkover] One of the men of the guard made a crack about Gandalf’s abrupt departure
[Demosthenes] there is a veiling shadow that some power lays upon the land, and it marches slowly down stream. It is as if the twilight under endless trees were flowing downwards from the hills.’
[Elemmire] How does he know?
[Darkover] elf-eyes
[Elemmire] I love the description in that part of the chapter btw. And of the sunset as well
[Puma] legolas could not see the ents.just the shadow they caused
[Elemmire] Sorry, how does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] That is a good question. How does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew merry and pippin were with the ents
[esther] I thought Elves could see anything
[Demosthenes] And for what degree of know?
[Lasak] So he kinda used the people of Rohan as a bait?
[Puma] and had also seen treebeard
[Puma] so knew that the ents would have to react
[Darkover] no, Lasak, he just got the Rohirrim–and Theoden–moving, which had to be done
[Elemmire] ah
[Demosthenes] Well, that’s not /know/, that’s an educated guess surely?
[Puma] and gandalf also knew that ents move in “shadows”
[jamie] just a question does anyone know if the nre Desolation of smaug trailers arriving soon? as it must be
[Elemmire] ok puma
[Elemmire] thanks
[Demosthenes] jamie: dunno.
[esther] I heard its arriving on June 14th Jamie
[Stozzi] ok one battle i really like was battle of pelenor (off topic but just saying :3)
[Puma] i dont think it was an educated guess…..gandalf knew
[Xanaseb] Greeny
[jamie] its arriving with the man of steel film I heard the same
[Demosthenes] Then how did he know?
[esther] I agree Stozzi, I loved that one too
[esther] right Jamie
[Darkover] Whether he knew for a fact or not, Gandalf realized this was something that needed his attention
[jamie] right anywaqy thanks bfn
[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the arrival of Ceorl seems to have tipped the balance
[Puma] gandalf knew what a bunch of ents and huorns looked like when on the move
[Darkover] Much of this book involves Gandalf encouraging people at one front, only to set off for another and do the same
[esther] who is Ceorl?
[Demosthenes] Things have gone evilly since Théodred fell. We were driven back yesterday over the Isen with great loss; many perished at the crossing. Then at night fresh forces came over the river against our camp. All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us.
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, LL
[Xanaseb] LL!
[Elemmire] Gandalf gets people to do stuff, they do it, he gets other people to do other stuff.Basically
[Demosthenes] then gandalf says:
[lorienslady] Hiya Jennie and Xana
[Demosthenes] ‘Ride, Théoden!’ he said. ‘Ride to Helm’s Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.’ Turning to Aragorn and Éomer and the men of the king’s household, he cried: ‘Keep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helm’s Gate! Farewell!’
[Elemmire] hey lady
[Darkover] Right, Elemmire
* Baumbart (Mibbit@torn-BB0196CF.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Puma] it was gandalfs job to unite all the parties
[Demosthenes] It’s more Ceorl’s new that prompts Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] *news
[Xanaseb]
[Stozzi] hmm most of the things gandalf has done has influenced a lot through out of the books if you thing about it
[Darkover] And it was also his job, had been from the beginning, to encourage people to resist Sauron–and in this context, Saruman, too
* mib_2at40d (Mibbit@torn-FCFA339C.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[esther] I really need to get to reading the books lol
* mib_m7epyl (Mibbit@torn-730C4DD4.sub-174-237-130.myvzw.com) has joined #thehalloffire
[Puma] well.no….when ceorl arrived with the news.gandalf knew not to bother with the fords anymore
[Demosthenes] esther: one of Erkenbrand’s soldiers. A survivor of the battle of the fords of the isen.
[Darkover] You won’t regret it, Esther
[esther] oh thanks Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Yeah, I agree with puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Me, too
[Jenniearcheo] fwiw
[Puma] and then gandalf also knew..that he needed the ents help…….as b4 he had no idea of the numbers saruman was sending
[esther] Darkover, I’ve been trying to get through the first one
* mib_m7epyl (Mibbit@torn-730C4DD4.sub-174-237-130.myvzw.com) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
* Erestel (Mibbit@torn-714531D1.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Could the Rohirrim have defeated the orcs in a field battle?
[esther] I’ve watched the movies over 100 times just haven’t gotten through the books yet
[Darkover] The first starts out slow, Esther, give it time
[Puma] to few for a field battle
[Darkover] I doubt it, Demosthenes
[esther] what do u mean by that question Demosthenes
[Stozzi] yet the ents decided to sit and debate on it for ages , until merry and pippen convinced treebeard to pass isengard ?
[Elemmire] I think it depends how many
[Elemmire] Not the whole host
[Elemmire] there were waaaaaay to many
[esther] you are right Darkover, I need to be motivated to read it lol
[Demosthenes] esther: well, Helm’s Deep is essentially a seige battle.
[Puma] merry and pippin did no such thing
[Puma] that is just movie Stozzi
[Puma] which is wrong
[Lasak] helms deep is a strong castle
[Jenniearcheo] which is different
[Puma] the hornburg is the fortress
[Stozzi] Ah but they did have a meeting at the entmoot though right? (need to read book again)
[esther] ok well I think the rohirrim could defeat the orcs no matter where they are
[Puma] the entmoot itself decided to atack
[Darkover] They did. And Merry and Pippin did serve a purpose
[Elemmire] Yeah, but pip and merry werent there
[Eruanna] I don’t think they would have won, the uruk hai managed to break the deeping wall which had stood strong over many seiges
[Elemmire] they were off with the ;hasty’ ent
[Puma] actually after the entmoot began merry and pippin went off with brealad
[Darkover] Maybe, Esther, but I think that if the Rohirrim had fought the Orcs in the field, even if the Rohirrim won, I fear it would have been a Pyrric victory
[Puma] bregalad
[Jenniearcheo] Well, . . . at this point, it’s moot
[Jenniearcheo] ar ar
[Elemmire] him
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] lol, jennie
[esther] Darkover, Pyrrick?
[Puma] theoden only had 1000 men.not enough for an open field battle
[Puma] gamling had another 1000 at hornburg
[Darkover] Esther, that means that the price the Rohirrim would have had to pay in lives, in order to “win,” would have been so high that it wouldn’t have been worth it
[Demosthenes] Alexander the great often fought outnumbered
[Demosthenes] and won.
[Puma] so enough to defend.not to attack
[Eruanna] Pyrric is a victory when the cost of the victory makes it worthless ie the death of eveyone
[esther] oh ok yeah that is true I guess
[Demosthenes] Eruanna: “another such victory shall be the end of us”
[Darkover] Lots of leaders have fought outnumbered and won, Demosthenes, Just as lots have fought outnumbered and lost
[Lasak] well i think they could have met them in open fields
[Darkover] or had a Pyrrhic victory–thank you, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: true enough!
[Lasak] with archers on horses
[Xanaseb] hehe
[Lasak] running close and away again
[Puma] Theoden went to helms deep.cause he knew he had no chance in the open
[esther] I agree Darkover, there have been many victories no matter the count of men in the victor’s camp
[Elemmire] probab;y killled the horses with exhaustion though lasak…
[Demosthenes] Well, he went there cuz Gandalf told him to.
[Elemmire] yeah darkover
[Puma] and knew it was correct
[Lasak] damn.. i forgot about the horses couldn’t run forever
[Puma] gandalf is an advisor.not ruler
[Elemmire] and gandalf know everything…
[Demosthenes] Would Theoden have rejected bad advice?
[Lasak] even if it is the horses of the people of rohan
[Demosthenes] Interesting thought.
[Darkover] I think Theoden had learned by this time that Gandalf did not give bad advice.
[Elemmire] Uh…Theoden listened to Wormtongue for however long it was…not so good with distinguishing bad advice
[esther] well he didn’t reject Wormtongues advice, although yes he was under Saruman’s spell
[Lasak] and would have followed that advice no matter what it was
[Puma] yes true.they had ridden all day.it was nearing dusk….hardly good conditions for horses to fight
[esther] I agree Lasak
[Demosthenes] puma: yes. they did ride hard. they feared to be too late to help Erkenbrand.
[Puma] yes
[Lasak] at the end of the chapter you see how they follow Gandalfs advice even if it seems like stupidity
[Lasak] when they ride to isengard
[Puma] also besides the ents….gandalf was gathering the men of rohan who had scattered at the fords
[Puma] all would be needed
[Jenniearcheo] Which apparently takes 10 hours
[Darkover] Although in this chapter, the Rohirrim didn’t have a tremendous number of options
[Demosthenes] puma: i thought mostly that he went to find Erkenbrand tbh. And that the visit to Isengard was a secondary affair.
[Puma] at the fords of isen.isengard was delayed…..which was of major import
[Lasak] i’m going to sleep now, must playing a chess tournament now so have to sleep
[Jenniearcheo] Night Lasak
[Demosthenes] night lasak!
[Xanaseb] ciao Lasak
[Darkover] Goodnight, Lasak, and good luck with your tournament!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, good luck!
[Stozzi] bye lasak
[Lasak] thanks
[Stozzi] i best be off to actually work tomorrow yay =-= Enjoy the discussion =D bye
[Darkover] bye, Stozzi
[Demosthenes] The good thing for Theoden was that Erkenbrand’s forces had mostly been routed and scattered, not killed.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Stozzi
[Puma] when gandalf was out and about……he met both elfhelm and grimbold
[Darkover] Right, so they lived to assemble and fight again
[esther] by Lasak and Stozzi
[Puma] gandalf sent elfhelm back to edoras
[esther] I know Grimbold but not Elfhelm
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] many characters were left out of movies esther
[esther] which means I REALLY need to read the books lol
[Darkover] Or the movies would have been three times as long
[Puma] yes
[esther] I wouldn’t have minded if they were longer lol
[Demosthenes] The orcs are actually not terribly strategic if you think about it. although they do flank at the Isen in order to make Erekenbrand’s defence untenable.
[Puma] the actual lotr is too complex to be made a movie
[person] true story
[Demosthenes] But at Helm’s Deep they use only overwhelming numbers.
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yeah
[Darkover] well, the orcs seem to be vicious, but not stupid
[esther] I don’t know if i can agree with you on that Puma
[Darkover] Hi, person
[Demosthenes] Darkover: they are very … fierce … in their parley with Aragorn.
[person] Hi
[Demosthenes] what can we conclude from their words if anything?
[Elemmire] thats one way of putting it demos
[Demosthenes] The Orcs yelled and jeered. ‘Come down! Come down!’ they cried. ‘If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!’
[Darkover] Indeed, Demosthenes. And the Uruk-hai even have a sort of martial pride and courage, which would be admirable among other circumstances
[Demosthenes] ‘What of the dawn?’ they jeered. ‘We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?’
[Darkover] That is just what I mean. Unlike most Orcs, they don’t fear the sun. It is as if they are the orcs with true martial ardor.
[Darkover] I mean, they seem to take a sort of pride in themselves, like combat soldiers who take pride in their Company or Division
[Demosthenes] Yes, I’d agree with that.
[esther] yeah its interesting that there are different versions of the orcs, ones who don’t like the light and ones who don’t give a damn lol
[Demosthenes] They have a togetherness and a sense of … loyalty? … that is absent from other orcs we meet, both earlier and later.
[Darkover] Exactly!
[Puma] i think we see later that the orcs of minas morgul and cirith ungol have martial ardor
[Demosthenes] puma: but seem more likely to fall out with each other. they have less discipline i guess.
[Darkover] Maybe, Puma, but it seems to me there is a difference between bragging, “We are the fighting Uruk-hai!” and fighting because you will be whipped or otherwise punished if you don’t.
[Puma] i am not sure
[Jenniearcheo] And as you can see, it’s a pretty low threshhold
[Puma] but good point to ponder
[Jenniearcheo] Where there’s a whip, there’s a way? lol
[Darkover] Sick but funny, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it’s from Rankin/Bass. That’s the classic Mordor orc perspective
[Demosthenes] Orcs are not as cookie cutter as they appear. Is that because of Saruman? Treebeard described him as having a mind of metal and machines and wheels. And that goes very well with rigid order.
[Puma] rigid order is what sauron was all about Demz
[Elemmire] hi
[Demosthenes] Saruman seems more so.
[Elemmire] thats a goos point demos
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, it seems like Saruman would like them to be _more_ cookie cutter
[Demosthenes] I have a different question: what precisely is the devilry of saruman that allows the uruk-hai to destroy the wall?
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, if they had been more rigid and predictable, the fracas wouldn’t have happened when they were taking the hobbits to isengard
[esther] the bombs Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Good point jennie
[Jenniearcheo] It’s all about what’s on the list, esther. It’s just a program
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I always got the impression that the movie got that detail right–that it was probably gunpowder in some form that Saruman used.
[Elemmire] its a bomb/mine in the film
[Eruanna] I think the devilry is explosives, perhaps something similar to gunpowder
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it was gunpwder
[Puma] saruman sauron and gandalf all had gunpowder
[esther] all I’m saying is its wrong to hold people back that’s all
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, radagastthebrown. Near Washington, D.C.
[Puma] DC.my old college town
[Elemmire] well, unless wizards have magic exploding spells…
[Jenniearcheo]
[Jenniearcheo] Surely Saruman would have had to be there in person for that . . .
[Darkover] And since gunpowder hadn’t been used before in M-E, it probably did seem like magic to the Rohirrim
[Elemmire] yeah…true darkover
[Puma] sauron used blasting fire.gunpwder..gandalf did fireworks.gunpowder
[Demosthenes] That’s very Arthur C Clarke.
[Darkover] Oh, yes, Puma, you’re right–I forgot Gandalf’s fireworks
[Darkover] Much more delightful than weapons
[Puma] now gandalf also had rocketry
[Jenniearcheo] Which is interesting
[Puma] but he did not use gunpwder for war
[Demosthenes] Did Gandalf get the fireworks from
[Demosthenes] The fireworks of Gandalf came from Dale/Erebor.
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . the rings, magic, whatever, is neither good nor evil, and neither is gunpowder
[Jenniearcheo] It’s just the wielder?
[Elemmire] 3Smaug makes fireworks!lol
[esther] really? the fireworks came frome Erebor/Dale
[Puma] its an interesting concept how the various maiar.had gunpwder….but gandalf did not use his for war.he surely knew it could be
[Jenniearcheo] With the exception of the One Ring
[esther] lol true Elemmire
[Demosthenes] jennie: there is that magic/art dichotomy though.
[Demosthenes] Does gunpowder count here as a “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] It counts as power
[Puma] not to us….but to people there it would seem magic
[Darkover] Well, you mentioned Arthur C. Clark, Demosthenes, I assume alluding to his comment that once you reach a certain point, science is virtually indistinguishable from magic.
[Elemmire] 3gandalf’s fireworks-werent they described as magical at one point…
[Demosthenes] I mean in its effect.
[Puma] and gandalf had it and used it not for power
[Elemmire] 3?
[Darkover] and since gunpowder had never before been used as a weapon in M-E, the rohirrim probably didn’t know what it was, and it seemed like dark magic to them.
* Puma nods
* Elemmire agrees
[Puma] same for when sauron used it to blast holes in the rammas
[Jenniearcheo] Was The Shire the only place Gandalf ever set off his fireworks?
[esther] rammas?
[Darkover] Even in the movie “300,” there is a mention of how when weapons failed, “they used their magic,” i.e., gunpowder-based grenades
[Elemmire] theyre never mentioned anywhere else
[Demosthenes] jennie: the only place we know of.
[Puma] the outer wall around the pelennor.not in the movies.though of great import esther
[esther] oh ok thanks Puma
[Jenniearcheo] To the lobbers of the grenades, it might still be magic. If you didn’t know how they were made, but were just lobbin’ ‘em.
[Demosthenes] It’s interesting that the dwarves of Erebor don’t think to take the technology any further.
[Elemmire] nice argument youre building here, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm
[Darkover] But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Aragorn pointed out to one of the hobbits that Gandalf spent a lot of time in a lot of places, that hobbits didn’t know about
[Darkover] Thank you, Elemmire
[Puma] true Darkover
[Darkover] But I imagine Gandalf saved the best for hobbit parties
[Jenniearcheo] But presumably if he’d gone to Rohan and set off a fireworks display . . .
[esther] I agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, then again, perhaps Tolkien is implying that good people wouldn’t think of such a use
[Puma] to the hobbits the fireworks were magic
* Elemmire agrees with jennie
[Demosthenes] magia in Tolkien can be used for both good and bad. it’s not good or bad in itself.
[Darkover] Maybe so, Jennie. Tolkien tended to frown on technology, anyway, as he seemed to think it was frequently put to bad uses
[Puma] and its the same with middle earth magic.intent has a big part in if it is “good or bad”
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] In The Hobbit, he goes out of his way to describe orcs, and how they may be behind our weapons of mass destruction.
[Darkover] I was recalling the same thing, Jennie
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking that this is essentially a kind of magia.
[Puma] jrr said goetic
[Puma] as opposed to magia
[Puma] but even jrr had a hard time distinguishing the 2
[esther] doesn’t everyone have a hard time distinguishing what magic really is
[Puma] jrr makes it complex
[Darkover] He makes it seem like a natural force
[Demosthenes] “the enemy’s operations are by no meas all goetic deceits, but magic that produces real effects in the physical world. but his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goetia to terrify and subjugate.
[esther] u know what I’m still confused about, it sort of has to do with my personal life as well as Tolkien
[Puma] yes Demz.from letters
[Puma] and what is that esther
[Demosthenes] I had to find the reference and type it out. but … Saruman’s and Sauron’s explosive devices that breach walls, and Gandalf’s fireworks all seem to fall inside this magia category.
[Demosthenes] It’s letter 155.
[Jenniearcheo] So with magia you blow up walls and lob rocks. With goetic power you scare people into submission
[Jenniearcheo] Like the black breath
[Demosthenes] I guess so!
[Jenniearcheo] And, presumably . . . the Ring
[Puma] it was a bit more complex than what Demz quoted
[Demosthenes] Or deceive them, like Sauron does with Barahir’s companion.
[esther] I know my mom has her tastes but I really thought she’d want to read the books after I told her that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and my mom is a devout Christian
[Demosthenes] By imitating the dead.
[Puma] but in the end.both good and bad people use both.intent is the key
[Darkover] true, Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Well, esther, it is a matter of taste. Some people are uncomfortable with questioning reality at all. Even in fun.
[Demosthenes] It’s pretty clear that Saruman is into bulldozing here.
[Darkover] does your mom like fantasy, Esther?
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[esther] I dunno Darkover she watched a movie once that had fairies in it and didn’t seem to mind
[Puma] i think we have covered this chapter well
[Demosthenes] Yeah, lastly I’d like to flip to the conclusion, and touch on the Huorns. This is the Macbeth rewrite?
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all points
[Darkover] yes, the moving forest!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as I understand it.
[Puma] many scholars think so Demz
[Darkover] A moving, *angry* forest
[Puma] nature rising to protect itself
[esther] ah yes the forest that attacked the fleeing Uruk Hai
[Demosthenes] I always figured this was the moving shadow that Legolas perceived at the beginning of the chapter.
[Puma] it was
[Jenniearcheo] sure
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] And later we find out that the Huorns follow the orcs of their own accord? Not by any instruction from Treebeard.
[Darkover] Certainly, those who passed under that shadow never came out again. That implies huorns, or at least *really* angry Ents
[Puma] the movie esther did not show the import of the ents and huorns
[Puma] without them.helms deep would ahve been lost for all the valor of the defense
[Darkover] Although there is a part in the movie where Eomer shouts, “Stay away from the trees!” I assume that is meant to be this moment, that we are discussing.
[Demosthenes] So we see Saruman’s “devilry” and the counterpoint … the revenge of nature that destroys that which would destroy/change it.
[Darkover] yes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] it was the huorns that killed most of the uruks
[Jenniearcheo] crunchings and munchings
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] One brings about the other.
[esther] um ok Puma you’ll have to explain how they didn’t
[Puma] the huorns were the deciding factor in the battle
[Puma] nature.
[Demosthenes] Forces that are outflanked or surrounded usually lose. Badly.
[Puma] without nature on your side.all the valor will still fail
[esther] the huorns?
[Darkover] Plus, evil trees would be sort of freaky, IMO
[Puma] so treat nature with respect
[esther] I agree Darkover lol
[Jenniearcheo] or else
[Puma] the huorns were the moving trees esther
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure the huorns even after this are particularly on anyone’s side other than their own.
[Puma] agreed Demz
[esther] well I only know one thing, until I’ve read the books, I love the movies more. and I thought the moving trees were called Ents
[Darkover] Well, I doubt if the huorns were drawing many distinctions at that point
[Puma] no.ents were treebeard and ilk
[esther] oh ok
[Demosthenes] Wonder if the Rohirrim had anything to fear.
[Puma] the books are way more complex than movies esther
[Darkover] Ents were the “shepherds of the forest,” esther. Huorns are trees that have gone bad, so to speak, presumably from being mistreated by humans for so long.
[Darkover] Huorns weren’t mentioned in the movies.
[Puma] or also ents that had grown treeish
[Jenniearcheo] Not by name
[Jenniearcheo] But the forest does appear and chew up the Uruk Hai in the EE
[Demosthenes] An odd in-between thing.
[esther] I guess I just like seeing them visually rather than having to picture it in my head Puma
[Darkover] I bet the Rohirrim would have had plenty to fear, Demosthenes, if they had gone too near that “shadow”
[Puma] old man willow was probaly a huron
[Darkover] True, Puma
[Demosthenes] They did take wood from the forest to burn the orcs.
[Puma] huorn
[Darkover] Well, I think they were allowed to do that, so long as it was not living wood
[Puma] ents understand the use of woood.not the useless destruction saruman was doing
[Elemmire] yeah, aragorn legolas and gimli take wood earlier
[esther] I agree Puma
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it is one of jrr’s green themes
[Demosthenes] Like the Dead (later on) they perform one act to assist the free people’s and then disappear.
[Puma] respect nature
[esther] agreed Puma
[Jenniearcheo] The Grateful Dead do one act? Oh, the armies . . . never mind
[Puma] lol
[Puma] although the ents did more than one act
[Puma] they defeated a horde of orcs in the wold….
[Darkover] So, have we covered all the aspects of this chapter?
[Puma] that had failed to get into lorien
[Puma] i think so darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so. I can’t think of anything else.
[esther] I can’t say so cuz I haven’t actually read the chapter yet
[Puma] good job people
[Darkover] We’ve had a good discussion, as usual
[Puma] i would encourage you to read lotr esther
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks,Dems
[Demosthenes] thanks everyone!
Session Close: Sun Jun 02 09:49:36 2013

Translated by Christopher J. Gledhill and William Auld* (only the poems), La Hobito first appeared in the Esperanto world in 2000 and again in 2005, in both cases selling rapidly, and now reappears with small corrections to small typographical errors. This time one also expects good sales for the book, thanks to the film The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, which is the first of a three-part film series with the second part soon to be released.

The 224-page book includes a three-color cover by Masha Bajenova, who also designed 19 pictures for the book (one for each chapter), a map, and etymological notes on the names in Tolkien’s work.

The book is available now from the book service of the UEA [Univeral Esperanto Association], from Sezonoj in Kaliningrad and from Svetlana Smetanina in Moscow, for 18 Euros. The wonder tale also will be sold at a special discount price during the 49th Baltic Esperanto Days to be held in Utena, Lithuania, and the 29th “Artistic Confrontations in Esperanto” in Poznan, Poland. The fifth chapter of the book can be read for free on the archive site of ‘La Balta Ondo’.

* [I should mention that William Auld was also the Esperanto translator of The Lord of the Rings -- Ostadan]

PS. The Bajenova drawings, from the 2000 edition, can be seen here.

A couple of weekends ago, we discussed the character of Isildur in Hall of Fire. Was he, we asked, the true shaper of the Third Age? For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 8 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be returning to the Hobbit movies for the first time in a while and examining the new details about Tauriel, and what they might mean for the films.

Session Start: Sun May 26 07:15:38 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Isildur, shaper of the third-age? | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] So this about Isildur fella.
[Puma] Isildur.a way more complex character than many see
[dombillyfan] lotr
[Demosthenes] err, aobut this*
[Demosthenes] puma: why do you say that?
[Puma] well..Isildur preserved the kingship of the numenoreans…and did end up making an error with the ring….but i have reasons not to totally blame him for that
[Demosthenes] Is the former more to the credit of Elendil?
[Puma] but i think the tree is the best place to start as that is young isildur
[Puma] no…….its not
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Darkover] What are we discussing this week?
[Demosthenes] Elendil seems to have driven the exiles. Or maybe even /Amandil/.
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree with that, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover, Isildur’s the topic.
[Puma] Tar-palantir prohesized that when the white tree was no more.the line of kings would end
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Nice to see you as always.
[Ringlordsander] I don’t think Isildur made an error with the Ring. I don’t think you can call it an error while everyone would do the same in that position.
[Puma] Isildur saved the white tree.by doing so.symbolically the kingship passed to the line of amandil
[Darkover] Thank you, you too!
[stargategeek] hi can I have that link to HOF again. was using different irc
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, so is the white tree thing more important than the seven ships thing? Without the ships you have no white tree, and Elendil organised the boats….
[Demosthenes] trees don’t usually float very well.
[sunshower] you are in HOF, stargategeek
[Darkover] And maybe also it was a symbol that life could go on
[Puma] yes….it was joint
[Puma] but ships with no tree……means no kingship
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, there would have been no Gondor, etc.
[Puma] and there were 9 ships
[miriel] The tree is more important IMO
[Puma] look at the importance aragorn placed on the tree
[Darkover] Sounds like both tree and ships were very important
[Puma] no tree.no king
[miriel] they could have used any boat to get from Numenor, but not any tree
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so too.
[Rivornel] And Gandalf (importance thing)
[stargategeek] whats tonights topic?
[Puma] isildur rescued a fruit of the white tree at great risk
[Lasak] I agree with miriel there
[miriel] isildur
[stargategeek] hi sunshower
[Darkover] Isildur, Stargategeek
[Demosthenes] Isildur seems to have gone to rescue the tree from Armenelos of his own accord?
[stargategeek] hi darkover
[ChristineGolden] If not for Elendil, Isildur wouldn’t have gotten very far with his fruit.
[Puma] without the tree…..the exiled numenoreans could have come to middle earth…….but there could be no rightful king
[Darkover] would there really not have been a king, without the symbolism of the tree?
[Puma] Elendil had nothing to do with the rescue of the fruit
[Ringlordsander] I agree with ChristineGolden here. I don’t think Isildur would’ve gotten far without his father…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i dunno. what makes a king?
[miriel] I think it is interesting that we have isildur doing it, only to later fail with the ring
[Lasak] The kings always find a reason to make them above the people
[Puma] there might have been a ruler with no tree.but no king
[Teowang] u seriously are stargategreek?
[Darkover] I understand the importance of symbolism to M-E societies, but there is symbol, and there is substance
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, the tree was merely one symbol of the kingship.
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, in practical terms, being able to fight off enemies and lop their heads off is pretty important
[Puma] even aragorn knew.no tree.no true king
[miriel] do you think tolkien might have wanted to show that someone could both be wise/good/whatever and yet fail when tested by a supreme power?
[Darkover] More so than trees, although Tolkien might not agree
[Darkover] That is a possibility, Miriel
[Puma] also.with out the tree.the line of kings end…does that mean if they arrived in middle earth…they would not have survived
[Demosthenes] So in what ways does Isildur preserving the white tree (twice, not once!) shape the third age?
[Darkover] Although to be fair to Isildur, did he truly understand the nature of the One Ring when he took it?
[Demosthenes] Also, is it that act that earns the hatred of Sauron?
[Puma] lets hold off on the ring a bit please
[ChristineGolden] I think he did, as far as man could understand the evil of Sauron, Darkover
[miriel] well, we have a king that has something to base his claim of power on… would not have happened otherwise?
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, as Puma observed, symbolism is important. So is tradition. And the White Tree was a thing of beauty
[Demosthenes] All good points.
[Goldberry] Crazy that isildur could walk in there any take the fruit without anyone stopping him
[Darkover] Preserving it was undoubtedly a good action on Isildur’s part, and may have made him seem more heroic
[Demosthenes] He was injured in the process, iirc?
[Puma] when the tree sprouted in the house of amandil…isildur who had been gravely wounded.awoke for the 1st time….there is symbolism in that
[ChristineGolden] The King of Gondor had many symbols. Wasn’t there one found in Orthanc after the fall of Saruman?
[Darkover] He didn’t exactly “walk in,” as I recall, Goldberry. I think he sneaked in
[miriel] the tree is also a way of showing that the line is the right one, remember it withers when the kings disappear
[Demosthenes] Did that signify that Isildur was the true king, not elendil?
[Goldberry] Pretty good at sneaking
[Darkover] That too, Miriel. Symbolism strikes again
[Puma] and isildur was wounded gravely when taking the fruit
[Puma] isildur also had great forsight
[Goldberry] He nearly died didn’t he?
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: yes i believe so.
[Puma] it did fail him once though
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah. minas ithil. stupid place to put a city.
[Goldberry] Then he recovered when the tree started growing
[Demosthenes]
[miriel] I think he was a very devoted biologist (jk jk)
[Darkover] Most of the heroes in Tolkien’s writings had great foresight. I always wondered if that is meant to be a mystical thing, or if the heroes were just people who were smarter and thus could make predictions better than most.
[Puma] as i said earlier.when the young tree sprouted.isildur awakened
[Puma] probably both Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: better intuition?
[Darkover] Maybe a sign that Isildur–or his line–were connected with the Tree?
[miriel] very hard to say, Darkover
[Darkover] That’s just it, Demosthenes–intuition, or intelligence? As Miriel says, hard to say. Probably some of both.
[Puma] but isildur….had the men of the white mtns take an oath at the stone of erech…he had the forsight to know the war with sauron would go on a long time…of course he brought that about in part himself
[Demosthenes] Probably both. Intuition, empathy, insight … all these things make people better leaders. And Isildur seems to have been albe to lead people — he essentially sets up Arnor AND Gondor as realms.
[Demosthenes] And everyone went along with his ideas.
[Demosthenes] Isildur was also instrumental in setting up the Arnor/Gondor system, which greatly shaped the government of the Third Age.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] So he must have been quite a leader. A pity that at the end, he was remembered mostly for failing to destroy the One Ring, and getting killed by orcs int he process.
[miriel] I never really understood the benefits of s
[Goldberry] It is a pity
[Puma] well….i have reasons that the taking of the ring….was a bit more complex than people attribute to it
[miriel] *splitting up the kingdom
[Darkover] Wasn’t Isildur the eldest son? or were he and Anarion twins, and Isildur the elder? Didn’t Tolkien dither over that issue for a time?
[Lasak] that truly is a pity
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say that politically he established the foundations of a golden age. a bit like augustus.
[Demosthenes] with Rome.
[Goldberry] Easier to rule a smaller place than a bigger
[thefoolishtook] im reading what all you guys say, and i say parallels with gollum/smeagol. the whole they should of renounced the ring but they didnt know better. ultimately their fate was to help middle earth etc?
[Puma] the elves had kept the rings a secret….the numenoreans knew nothing of the rings…numenor was perhaps destryed because they did not know fo the rings.so the elves had some fault in the fall of numenor
[Darkover] yes, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] see* parallels
[Puma] so do you blame isildur for not trusting the elves advice with the ring
[miriel] yes. He did have the potential to destroy it
[Puma] isildur was in exile for lack of knowledge about the ring
[miriel] he had done many great deeds in the past
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, I’m not sure I agree that Isildur and Gollum were exactly analogous. Isildur cut it directly from the Dark Lord’s hand, after the latter just killed his father, and Gollum murdered his BF and kinsman. Not quite the same
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Diocletian. Diocletian started the process of splitting the Roman empire into east and west.
[Goldberry] Maybe isildur did know better he just wasn’t able to lett it go
[Puma] isildur did know his mistake and repented to elendur
[Puma] so isildur in that respect can be compared to boromir
[Rivornel] Well, I think the ring also played a big role. Cause when Frodo went to toss it into Mt. Doom he couldn’t do it either
[thefoolishtook] yeah darkover, i get you in that they arent like for like, but still, their whole relationship with the ring being love hate rings a bell, just an observation anyways!
[Darkover] Well, Puma, elves usually give good advice, when they give it at all. But did Isildur understand at the time what the nature of the Ring was? That in order to use it, one had to become like Sauron? Did he understand the way It was tempting him? I’m not sure about any of that.
[miriel] good point Rivornel
[Darkover] Agreed, thefoolishtook, I think the Ring did that to almost everyone who came into contact with it.
[Puma] go not to the elvesd for advice cause they say both no and yes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that would depend on how much information Celebrimbor passed on to his compatriots.
[Darkover] True, Demosthenes
[Goldberry] Puma:yes isildur reminds me of Boromir in some ways
[Demosthenes] And then how much Gil-galad passed on to … well … the Numenoreans of the 2nd age for starters
[miriel] which leads to another question: should the elves have *forced* him to throw it into mount doom?
[Demosthenes] And then later to Elendil.
[Darkover] But if we believe Elrond’s account of events, Puma, for a change, his advice was pretty explicit–destroy It
[Rivornel] the ring in general is evil, and i think it’ll turn anybody who has good intentions to bad and selfish intentions
[Puma] the numenoreans knew nothing of the ring.till gil-galad told elendil
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was a very proud man, Darkover, and would have believed he could control it.
[miriel] possible, ChristineGolden
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i could see that too.
[thefoolishtook] like denethor thought boromir could
[Darkover] No, Miriel, I think the Elves would have had to murder Isildur to take the Ring from him, and clearly they couldn’t persuade him to do so, and nothing good would have come from that.
[Puma] there is also some evidence isildur was an overbearing older brother to anarion
[Darkover] Chris, I agree. I suspect even if Isildur had known all the facts, he would have kept the Ring. Just not sure how much guilt was his, if he didn’t have all the facts.
[Demosthenes] No-one would have tried to sneak the white tree out of armenelos without having a surfeit of self-confidence.
[miriel] so in the end, as soon as he laid hands on the ring, it really could not end any other way than in disaster
[Anameleth] I kinda think the elves should have forced him to destroy the ring
[Darkover] Really, Puma? I disagree. Isildur and Anarion seem to have gotten along astonishingly well, to the point that they were co-rulers.
[Lasak] But how should they force him?
[Darkover] I heartily agree, Demosthenes
[Puma] he felt at the time as any1 would.the elves lied to us about this ring….fall of numenor is in part the elves fault….and in his pride thought ring was better off with a numenorean
[thefoolishtook] elrond could of literally pushed him into mt doom?
[Anameleth] If they knew its power and what it could do, why didn’t they get rid of it?
[miriel] indeed, dems
[ChristineGolden] He may not have known the depths of its evil, Darkover, but he knew its nature.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think Meneldil was happy to see the back of Isildur when he left. Possibly because he felt he was being shaded.
[Puma] yes.co rulers in separate cities
[Lasak] i see that, but should they kill isildur?
[Darkover] More like disaster postponed, Miriel. Isildur got murdered shortly after, which was bad for him, but the Ring was lost for ages.
[Demosthenes] I’m sure that is in UT.
[miriel] true, Darkover
[Puma] and why was meneldil so happy he left gondor and would long be gone
[Darkover] Yeah, Demosthenes, that was strongly implied, I agree
[Demosthenes] Another indication of big egos?
[Darkover] Lasak, no, they should not have killed Isildur. It would have been murder, regardless of their motives.
[thefoolishtook] lesser of two evils Darkover?
[Puma] taking the ring by murder…..that results in a gollum
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Darkover] Yes, thefoolishtook
[miriel] we also rarely find people in charge who do not have some kind of want to be leaders
[Demosthenes] I am kinda surprised there was not more squabbling over the ring after sauron was brought down. But maybe everyone was too exhausted by war.
[Demosthenes] A kind of pyrric victory.
[Darkover] Or maybe it disappeared too fast
[Demosthenes] maybe?
[Puma] no one was there…..but gil-galad.elendil.isildur elrond and cirdan
[Demosthenes] “i would have this as weregild…” etc etc
[Rivornel] Isildor died either way though, they could have prevented the whole war of the ring if they had killed him..?
[Lasak] we know saruman looked after it
[Puma] so they did not know of the ring
[miriel] do you think the ring had part in this, Demosthenes?
[Puma] and the only person isildur told was elendur
[ChristineGolden] After Sauron was brought down, there was still a lot to do. The Orcs, for example, didn’t just wave and say, “see ya around” and walk off the battlefield.
[thefoolishtook] concerning fighting over the ring after the defeat of sauron, do you think its because the elves knew its true nature, and wouldnt of wanted it anyway?
[Darkover] Well, Isildur’s death resulted in It being lost. And his death seemed like a tragedy, but wasn’t the worst thing that could have happened. Rather like the death of Boromir centuries later.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Puma] exactly darkover
[Darkover] Maybe, thefoolishtook. I’m pretty sure that was Elrond’s attitude.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: that’s another possibility. and maybe they felt, mistakenly, that it wouldn;t be that bad?
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] and only reconsidered later.
[samsbestfriend] ChristineGolden: they kinda did in LOTR
[miriel] it would have suited it to not have a strong person yielding it, not to mention many of them being aware of it. It slipped through the net of greedy hands and into the river, laying dormant while sauron regained strenght — would not have happened if a lot of people were wanting to have it
[ChristineGolden] I think Elrond’s attitude was “let sleeping dogs lie.”
[Rivornel] But Isildur’s death delayed the whole process because the ring was lost. But then I guess it allowed the “good” guys to have a chance and not be overwhelmed
[thefoolishtook] if the elves considered it lost for all of time, they might of seen the ring as destroyed anyway. lost/destroyed = same thing?
[Demosthenes] hullo Isildursbane19. we’re just talking about you.
[Anameleth] Did Elrond realize the danger of the ring though?
[ChristineGolden] Only in the movies, samsbestfriend
[Puma] back to the tree 1 second….who 1st planted a fruit up above minas tirith.anotther act of forsight….most likely isildur.since he is most connected to the tree
[Darkover] Yeah, samsbestfriend, but that was because the movie had to end. In the book-verse, King Elessar and his men had to spend years killing off various bands of orcs, even after the Ring War
[ChristineGolden] But it does contradict Aragorn’s later words about the new owner of the ring.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, what does?
[Demosthenes] puma: returning to your point about whether the Numenoreans had received Full Disclosure. Well, Isildur did seem to take it as a memorial … not as a “wooo this will make me all-powerful!” thing.
[ChristineGolden] That Sauron would expect there to be confusion and a power struggle within the allies over who should wield the ring.
[miriel] I think it suited the ring best to lay dormant out of reach for the good guys
[Darkover] Right. “weregild”
[Puma] yes Demz
[samsbestfriend] i nwas meaning at the end of the 3rd age. sorry for the confusion
[Demosthenes] Maybe the elves didn’t tell everything. Maybe Gil-galad and co /didn’t know themselves/.
[Anameleth] True
[Puma] i think they did know
[Rivornel] Gotta go, see ya’ll soon
[Darkover] Sauron probably couldn’t conceive of anything else. That was the way his mind worked. He assumed no one would willingly pass up power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe that knowledge died with Celebrimbor?
[Goldberry] Bye
[miriel] cya Rivornel
[ChristineGolden] Ok, who do we know was aware that Isildur had the ring?
[samsbestfriend] I’d imagine orcs would always be an irritant, but no longer a threat
[miriel] elrond
[Goldberry] His sons?
[Puma] Celebrimbor would ahve passed on enough infor when he passed on the 3
[Darkover] did the Elves tell everything? Probably not. Did they know themselves? Hard to tell. Did Elves, by this time, like to get involved in the events of M-E? Not very often, which is something else to bear in mind.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Elrond, Cirdan, Elendur and Meneldil.
[Goldberry] Isildurs son
[Demosthenes] maybe Isildur’s other sons too.
[Puma] it seems not
[Puma] just elendur
[ChristineGolden] and Sauron.
[Demosthenes] It’s ambiguous anyhow.
[Darkover] Elrond. Probably his twins. Isildur, of course, and his oldest son, at least. Maybe the others, too, except for the youngest.
[Puma] and most likely not meneldil.which is why he left a written record
[Demosthenes] lol and Sauron the I’m doing a Cthulhu.
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[miriel] Darkover: they just fought in the last alliance. If that is not “being involved” then what is?
[Demosthenes] but the written record would have gone to Meneldil. It was there to instruct the Kings of Gondor.
[Puma] the rings were never a thing of common knowledge
[Darkover] Okay, maybe that was too harsh of me, Miriel. I was thinking more of their behavior during the Ring War, than the Last Alliance, but you have a point.
[Demosthenes] so he would have known sooner or later.
[Puma] yes Demz…….but as gandalf had said.seems to be rearely if ever read
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Darkover has a point.
[ChristineGolden] After the fall of Sauron, didn’t the elves return to their own kingdoms and cares?
[Demosthenes] Yeah that’s true. The elves were very hands-off.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[miriel] there must be so much material to read, who would find that one little piece of paper about a heirloom that was lost?
[Demosthenes] “not our fault!”
[Puma] hands off only after sauron thrown down
[Darkover] It took even Gandalf a while, and he was looking for that reference
[ChristineGolden] So, while Isildur’s roaming around ME with the ring, the elves are back in Rivendell, etc.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was 3K years later though.
[Darkover] What’s 3K among Elves, Demosthenes?
[Puma] lol
[miriel] that is true, there is a grain (quite a big one) of truth in what Darkover said
[Demosthenes] about from now till lunchtime?
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes. You folks are witty tonight.
[ChristineGolden] The elves were hands-off during Sauron’s reign of terror, too, Puma. They locked themselves inside their kingdoms.
[Puma] jrr wrote than in the area of the rings of lothlorien and rivendell….1000 yrs seemed like 10
[Puma] so time did pass.just slowly
[Demosthenes] To some extent they had no choice there Chrstine. They needed Numenor’s help.
[miriel] now, what I do find interesting: if Elrond knew so much about this ring (he was there), why did not gandalf seek the answers from him?
[Anameleth] Hmm… I’ve never even thought about that..
[Puma] i am sure gandalf did get answers from gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I know, Demosthenes, I was just responding to Puma’s remark.
[Demosthenes]
[Puma] but no1 had handled the one to know its identifying marks other than isildur
[Darkover] Hmm, good question, Miriel. Do you think Elrond would have felt called upon to report any such questions/concerns to Saruman, who technically what still on the Council–maybe its head, I don’t recall, and Gandalf didn’t want that?
[miriel] he distrusted saruman, but he seems to trust elrond pretty much (brought the ring to rivendell etc)
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf was trying to find out how to identify the ring; I doubt Elrond could have helped him.
[miriel] that could be it, perhaps, Darkover
[Puma] no 1 but isildur knew what the rings marks were
[Lasak] But that was after he knew of sarumans betrayal
[Puma] elrond could not have known that
[ChristineGolden] Elrond didn’t know about the inscription, for example, or how to make it readable.
[thefoolishtook] rookie question, but im guessing gandalf and the istari where about during the first age?
[Puma] exactly
[Puma] no
[miriel] ChristineGolden: but would it not be more likely that elrond, who had seen it, would know, rather than that there would be a note from ages past still saved about this matter?
[Darkover] No, the foolishtook, they weren’t
[Puma] the istari came mostly about 1000 3rd age
[ChristineGolden] No, the istari arrived at the beginning of the 3rd age.
[Demosthenes] I have another question. If the Ring has an inevitably corruptive power (which everyone agrees on), was what Isildur and Elrond and Cirdan chose to do the best (least worst?) possible choice?
[Puma] not till sauron was arising again
[thefoolishtook] ok, thanks darkover, puma, and chris!
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, miriel, unless it was still hot from Sauron’s hand when he saw it.
[Puma] only isildur saw and took the ring
[miriel] so elrond never saw it?
[Puma] elrond and cirdan would not jhave known
[Darkover] Isildur should have thrown the Ring into Mt. Doom when he had the chance, but since we don’t know how much he knew for a fact about It, I don’t think we can judge him *too* much. Hindsight and all that.
[miriel] nessyness, welcome to the madNess
[Puma] they saw a gold ring
[ChristineGolden] Could you be more specific, Demosthenes, about what choice?
[Nessy] Ha, 5
[Darkover] Elrond couldn’t have destroyed It at the time without murdering Isildur to do it.
[Goldberry] They asked him to destroy it puma
[Nessy] Thanks….random 5
[Demosthenes] Darkover: but no-one could have done that it seems. it seems to be physically beyond anyone.
[Puma] ty Darkover…..i have been trying to make that point
[ChristineGolden] Then we would have had a much shorter saga, Darkover.
[Darkover] Yes indeed, Chris!
[miriel] had elrond perhaps told gandalf all he knew already?
[miriel] at an earlier point
[thefoolishtook] and Peter JAckson would be much less well off!
[Puma] its all just a bit more complex than a surface story….glad we are discussing it
[Darkover] Sadly true, Demosthenes
[miriel] oh, but now I remember, he knew that saruman had gotten the info somewhere… that explains it
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] Well, it’s speculation about fiction, miriel, but it’s reasonable to assume that the White Council discussed the ring.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Well, Isildur took the ring. this had all sorts of outcomes. Barring destroying the ring, which seems to require an impossible act of will, was he the best possible guardian in the circumstances?
[ChristineGolden] what a terrible thought, thefoolishtook.
[Darkover] didn’t Saruman keep insisting that the One Ring went into the sea long ago, so they should all just forget about it?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he did.
[Puma] for the wearers of the 3 rings.the one has an especial power
[Puma] cirdan and elrond had 2 of the 3
[thefoolishtook] yeah darover, but wasnt that so he could search for it without anyone taking too much notice
[ElenGalad] How long a time period did Isildur have the ring?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, gotcha, Demosthenes. God, no, he was a terrible keeper of the ring.
[Demosthenes] ElenGalad: a year or so?
[miriel] since he died: yes. give the ring to elrond and he would have been corrupted (eventually) =] great loss
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[ElenGalad] Thanks
[Goldberry] And gandalf had the third ring
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: so what would have been a better option (apart from destroying it)?
[Puma] isildur had the ring a bit over 2 yrs
[Darkover] Sure, thefoolishtook, but I brought that up as a way of saying that the Council did discuss the One Ring, but Saruman kind of stonewalled any further discussion
[Puma] no goldberry
[Darkover] night, Anameleth
[Puma] galadriel had the 3rd ring
[Puma] cirdan gave his to gandlaf 1000 yrs later
[thefoolishtook] ahh okay, i follow you now darkover
[Goldberry] Oops!
[Demosthenes] Isildur said to Elendur at the Gladden Fields that it was beyond his power and should go to the keppers of the three. Is that really any better?
[ChristineGolden] There was only one ‘good’ option, Demosthenes, and that was to destroy it. But half of ME would have been a better guardian than Isildur.
[Demosthenes] But you can’t destroy it.
[Darkover] I think the problem was that there really was no one who could be an adequate “guardian” for the One Ring, Dmeosthenes
[Puma] well…..they would not have taken the one….but perhaps it was not so easy to destroy.who could they send
[Demosthenes] Just leave it in the dirt? is that possible either?
[Puma] then sauron would still arise
[thefoolishtook] How about galadriel, do you think in the second age she would of taken it as opposed to letting frodo go in the third?
[miriel] I disagree: anyone was a bad keeper. It was best that it was not kept. Thus, isildur was perfect
[Lasak] wasn’t that what happened in a way
[Darkover] Is that truly fair, Chris? After all, Isildur doesn’t seem to have tried to use It much, even at the last.
[Demosthenes] miriel: logic would seem to indicate that?
[ChristineGolden] If the ring had been ‘given’ to someone else, perhaps that person would have had the humility to destroy it.
[Puma] isildur never used it
[Darkover] Leaving It in the dirt would have been a horrible idea, Demosthenes
[Darkover] It wouldn’t have stayed in the dirt
[Demosthenes] So what Isildur did was better than nothing?
[miriel] doubt that, the only one to give away the ring was bilbo. Isildur would not have done that
[ChristineGolden] Isildur suffered from Tolkien’s #1 sin, Darkover: pride.
[Puma] Darkover…..i am convinced now you get this topic well
[Darkover] I think being able to give the Ring to someone else would have been almost as difficult as destroying It.
[Lasak] I think what isildur did was better
[Lasak] he moved the ring to place where it wouldn’t be found for ages
[Demosthenes] Darkover: this seems likely too.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, I think so. Isildur was not a good guardian for the Ring, but who would have been? No one.
[miriel] darkover. like I said, agreed
[Darkover] Not intentionally, Lasak
[Lasak] no
[Lasak] but he did
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] true Lasak
[ChristineGolden] Isildur lost the ring in a river, Lasak; it wasn’t deliberate.
[thefoolishtook] but all hiding the ring for 100′s of years did was allowed sauron to rebuild
[thefoolishtook] 1000′s of years*
[Darkover] I mean, if we are discussing “what ifs,” an orc might have taken the Ring from Isildur when he was killed. Just pure good luck/Providence that didn’t happen.
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: true. but it allowed prosperity in the meantime? does that outweigh the negatives?
[Darkover] It also allowed the good guys to rest up, so to speak.
[Puma] now in the great music….eru was said to make things anew that were unforseen….had hobbits evolved on purpose by eru.so they could handle the ring better than others?
[thefoolishtook] hmmm, so it allowed the free peoples to rebuild well enough to defeat sauron entirely demosthenes?
[miriel] btw, very interesting: hobbits seem to resist the ring (frodo and bilbo ) but gollum fell to its lure immediately
[Demosthenes] That too, Darkover. Like IU said earlier. the last alliance seems to have been a pyrric victory.
[Darkover] An intriguing thought, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Did it really allow prosperity in the meantime, Demosthenes? By the LotR, the West was in rapid decline.
[Puma] ty Darkover
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: not many empires last a thousand years. let alone three thousand.
[miriel] and according to gandalf, gollum was a hobbit… more or less
[miriel] so puma: I disagree
[Demosthenes] By human standards, Gondor in particular can claim an extraordinary longevity.
[Puma] even facing death.isildur knew saving the shards of anrsil was of great import….anotheer act of great forsight
[Demosthenes] And a great deal of that is because of Isildur.
[Lasak] I’m leaving now
[Demosthenes] seeya lasak!
[Puma] narsil
[ChristineGolden] I’m not talking about empire, Demosthenes, just prosperity, trade, communications, etc.
[Lasak] seeya
[Darkover] Yeah, Miriel, but I think Gollum was kind of a nasty type, anyway. I know he was being influenced by the Ring when he first saw It, but it didn’t take much for him to murder poor Smeagol, who was his best bud and relative. Contrast that with Bilbo sparing the life of Gollum, someone he didn’t know, who had been trying to harm him.
[miriel] now, wether Bilbo and frodo were “evolved on purpose” is another matter
[thefoolishtook] elves managed to maintain a standard but with the loss of arnor and the northern kingdoms?
[Demosthenes] puma: he should have given them to elendur.
[Darkover] bye, Lasak
[Puma] why Demz
[miriel] indeed Darkover, but he was a hobbit, so if the “hobbits resist the ring” was true, it should not have happened
[Isildursbane19] If I remember correctly, Puma, when the ainur and eru witnessed the music with the discord, they basically saw Arda in its entirety, including its creation, life and destruction, so yes, I would think, he did create them knowingly, or maybe not the race as a whole, but Bilbo and Frodo and Sam for sure
[Demosthenes] thefoolishtook: yes Arnor decayed more quickly. Possibly in part because it was the kingdom of Isildur’s direct heirs. And Sauron had especial malice toward them.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, Gollum was already corrupted before he took the ring.
[Demosthenes] puma: well, elendur might have survived then.
[Puma] no.the vision of the future was not complete
[Darkover] But Gollum’s resistance took a different form, Miriel, but it was no less resistance. He survived for centuries with the Ring eating at him, but he did not turn into a wraith, as a Man would have done
[Puma] i dont think so Demz
[miriel] very good point Darkover
[Darkover] and he endured torture and terror at the hands of Mordor, all because he loved and hated the Ring
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Puma] excellent Darkover!!!!
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma (blushes)
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[thefoolishtook] haha its a very good point darkover
[Puma] also there was still a small window to a good gollum….he did have that 1 point of near reprentence
[Darkover] ty, thefoolishtook. You folks will turn my head.
[miriel] that one makes me so sad, puma
[Goldberry] Me too
[Puma] jrr said it was saddest moment in book
[miriel] I agree
[Puma] i do also
[Darkover] Yes. It was close, and it was sad, but nasty little cynic that I am, I doubt if Gollum’s repentance, even if carried out, would have lasted for long.
[miriel]
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Puma] not with sam around
[Puma] but sam had also to emain himself
[Darkover] Well, I agree with Sam about Gollum.
[Puma] remain
[ChristineGolden] Or as Reagan said, Darkover, trust but verify.
[thefoolishtook] call me harsh, but i’ve never really got the whole pity for gollum thing
[Darkover] Good advice, Chris
* Puma is smiling….this is a great discourse today
* miriel is yawning … great, but very late
[Puma] aww
[Goldberry] Thefoolishtook you are called harsh
[miriel] I think I shall go get some sleep
[Puma] you are a trooper miriel
[miriel] Night all!
[Puma] sweet dreams
[thefoolishtook] ah goldberry, im sorry!
[Darkover] Well, thefoolishtook, the Ring had done a job on him. Of the two, Smeagol was the lucky one, even if he did get murdered.
[Goldberry] Night mirie
[Darkover] But as I said, I think he was a nasty type to begin with. His bad luck doesn’t change that.
[Darkover] Night, Miriel
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, I’m harsh, too, because I never felt sorry for Gollum. I’ve never understood the whole “Gollum fan club” thing.
[thefoolishtook] i know he’s had a horrid life and it wasnt his fault, but still, ive never really felt any pity for him
[Puma] yet as bad as gollum was.he kept his word to frodo.to never let sauron get the ring
[Darkover] Lord, no. Feeling a bit of pity for him doesn’t mean I want to form a fan club for him.
[Demosthenes] One other thing I’d like to raise briefly. Twice Sauron exerts himself (via his chief minions) against Isildur’s descendents/legacies. Once to destroy Arnor, once to take and then corrupt Minas Ithil. (the corruption thing seems especially vindictive).
[ChristineGolden] Well, I doubt that was deliberate, Puma.
[thefoolishtook] hi five ChristineGolden!
[Goldberry] I agree dark over
[Darkover] Well, Puma, I suspect that wasn’t a matter of trying to keep his word, but because he didn’t want Sauron or anyone other than Gollum himself to have it
[Puma] it was the pity of bilbo and frodo for gollum that saved middle earth
[Darkover] I think “vindictive” is Sauron’s middle name, Demosthenes
[thefoolishtook] i get that Puma, but on an emotional level, ive never really felt sorry for the character
[Puma] i agree Darkover.sort of lefthanded keeping his word….but word kept none the less
* Vince (Mibbit@torn-15B97E0D.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, but Isildur seems to have earned an especial ire.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] isildur took the ring
[Demosthenes] His chief foe and bugbear almost.
[Puma] isildur kept the kingship alive with the tree
[Demosthenes] isuldur saved the white tree. isildur established arnor and gondor.
[thefoolishtook] i’m talking to much about gollum anyway, not isildur, do we need to pull it back on topic?
[Darkover] Well, he did cut Sauron’s greatest toy/tool/weapon off Sauron’s hand, and knock out his power for a long time. Sauron’s not likely to forgive and forget.
[ChristineGolden] Well, first of all, he had to regain his strength, rebuild Barad-dur, etc., Demosthenes. By then, he probably thought that the heirs of Isildur had faded into inconsequence.
[Demosthenes] I guess key historical figures do attract powerful enemies.
[Demosthenes] In that context, it makes sense.
[Puma] it was the 1st sight of a surviving heir of isildur that drove sauron to attack too soon in the war of the ring
[Darkover] Plus, all the things you mentioned that Isildur did, would have displeased Sauron immensely
[Goldberry] Also cut off one of his fingers
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes. Sauron would fear the powerful, and Isildur was a very powerful enemy
[Puma] in the palantir i am referring
[ChristineGolden] Imo, Isildur is a tool Tolkien used, a means to explain how the ring was lost by Sauron.
[Demosthenes] And any surviving symbol of Isildur would be a slight against Sauron.
[Puma] after sauron saw an heir of isildur.he did not pay atention to all the things he should have
[Vince] how did the white tree of Gondor save the bloodline, Puma? You said Isuldor kept the line alive through the tree. I thought the tree was only a symbol of sorta.
[Darkover] As well as a big worry to the Dark Lord
[Vince] *sorts
[Puma] the tree was a symbol.but when no tree.there can be no king
[Demosthenes] oh, another thought, Luthien compelled Sauron’s surrender at Tol in Guaroth. And Isildur and Aragorn are descendents of Luthien.
[Puma] yes!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] So it goes back even further.
[Puma] yes!!!!!
[Darkover] And I suspect Sauron has a *very* long memory
[Demosthenes] that’s about 6000 years of being pwned.
[Puma] great point Demz!!!!!
[Demosthenes] No wonder he was so cranky.
[Puma] and gady Vince…..did not see you were here
[Goldberry] It’s past 1 am, I am going to have to leave you all
[Vince] Hello Puma. I didn’t wanna distract the discussion by introducing myself.
[Darkover] hi, Vince
[Demosthenes] Gnight goldberry!
[Puma] sweet dreams goldberry
[ChristineGolden] Whoa! Sleep well, Goldberry.
[Darkover] goodnight, Goldberry
[Goldberry] Cya
[Demosthenes] Hmmm. We seem to have come to halt. Any points we’ve missed?
[Darkover] Don’t believe so
[Puma] saurons hate from isildur could be examined after the palantir….sauron lost his concentration
[Darkover] Excellent discussion
[ChristineGolden] The tole Isildur played in regard to Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] role
[Demosthenes] Was Isildur an inspiration for Aragorn?
[Puma] yeah.we did a great job on this topic
[Darkover] There is that. That increased Aragorn’s claim to the throne
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, a 2-year old pried off a few keys on my laptop.
[Vince] not according to the movie
[Puma] oh my Chrsitine
[Darkover] The movie was entertaining, Chris, but not always canon
[Demosthenes] He did want to see the Argonath. So maybe Isildur was an inspiration.
[Darkover] Sorry, Vince, not Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s okay, Puma, the funeral is monday.
[Vince] in the movie, Isildur holds Aragorn back
[Puma] the movie got a lot wrong Vince
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I think Isildur was both an inspiration and a warning to Aragorn.
[ChristineGolden] Puma.
[Puma] thats why we read books Vince
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah that’s probably true. More often he says he is Elendil’s heir too.
[Puma] Exactly Christine
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[ChristineGolden] He showed Aragorn the heights to which Gondor could rise and how far a king could fall/be corrupted by power.
[Puma] Aragorn has to be elendils heir….since gondor had all ready excluded isildurs heir
[Demosthenes] puma: there s that
[Puma] and it seems in jrr once a law is made.its forever
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but it was Isildur who was not able to overcome the lure of the ring, Puma, and that had to weigh on Aragorn’s mind.
[Puma] agreed Chrsitine
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: which we kinda see in Bree.
[Puma] but in his travels aragorn had to see the will of sauron at work…so knew a good bit of saurons mind
[ChristineGolden] Psychologically speaking, you have to wonder if Isildur’s “example” didn’t buttress Aragorn’s ability to resist the ring: “No, I will be different….”
[Puma] which aragorn did use to turn the tide of war
[Puma] it did Christine
[Darkover] and Aragorn felt a degree of responsibility for the fate of the Ring because of his ancestor. He said something about how it was appropriate that “Isildur’s Heir should help repair Isildur’s fault,” as I recall.
[Puma] do you not think aragorn might have been afraid of that moment in bree
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think there’s something in that. he seems to have been very aware of his ancestors .. “isildur’s heir should repair isildur’s fault…”
[Demosthenes] oh. hah. gmta.
[Darkover] Afraid, no. but that was his moment of temptation, and he passed, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Yes, that’s what I meant, Demosthenes… and good point, Darkover.
[Darkover] So, have we covered everything?
[Demosthenes] i think so!
[Puma] would there have been a 3rd age without isildur….makes me wonder
[ChristineGolden] Probably not, but it’ll do.
[Demosthenes] puma: it would have been very different.
[Puma] yeah.i think we did great today
[ChristineGolden] Sure, Puma, Tolkien would have just written a different version.
[Demosthenes] Next weekend we’ll be visiting Helm’s Deep btw.
[Puma] cool beans
[Puma] short chapter
[Demosthenes] yeah. i like short chapters.
[Darkover] Back to the book
[ChristineGolden] brb, somebody’s fooling around the fence. gotta get my gun and see what’s going on.
[Demosthenes] Back to the book!
[Puma] enjoyed this great today people
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!!!!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone. Great discussion.
Session Close: Sun May 26 09:27:12 2013

Join us for TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “No Podraces in Eriador” Sewell — as we discuss the unique characteristics of each Dwarf. We shall learn how they fit into the larger history of Tolkien’s legends — and what Peter Jackson & WETA did to help us distinguish these rough and tumble travelers from each other (using more than just colored hoods). Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

NEXT WEEK:  the grand finale of our series — THORIN OAKENSHIELD!

——————————————————————-

Follow Cliff ‘Quickbeam’ Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

And remember, tomorrow (May 25 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing Isildur and examining to what extent he was the shaper of the Third Age.

Session Start: Sun May 19 07:16:27 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: The king of the golden hall | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok. We should probably start. People can catch up when they wander in.
[Demosthenes] “They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night. When at last they halted and dismounted, even Aragorn was stiff and weary. Gandalf only allowed them a few hours’ rest. ”
[Demosthenes] Gandalf sees a need for haste.
[Alatariel] So that tells us…
[Alatariel] Gandalf is kinda being mean
[Jenniearcheo] He knows sommat
[Jenniearcheo] about Saruman’s plans
[Raurenkili] we should start with: Baldor son of Brego built the Golden hall
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf is just being urgent
[timlotr] he seems to know what he is doing
[Anameleth] Mean?
[Raurenkili] *the
[Demosthenes] jennie: and it seems that Grima knows something when they arrive at Edoras also.
[Myra] I think that gandalf is more worried about what is out there, i.e. black riders and saruman’s orcs.
[Alatariel] And saruman
[Raurenkili] Yes, Gandalf knew they couldn’t lose any time
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Theoden will have heard of it. Maybe your coming was not wholly unlooked-for. It is but two nights ago that Wormtongue came to us and said that by the will of Th?en no stranger should pass these gates.’
[timlotr] hmm
[PippinForTheWin] I think Gandalf never forgot how Sam and Frodo were in peril every second of their journey. There wasn’t any time to rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as he’s forbidden Eomer to attack the orc party, but advised Théoden to have them ride off to the west instead.
[Demosthenes] Is that because of Eomer’s report about the man the elf and the dwarf? Or is it because Grima knows something about Gandalf?
[Jenniearcheo] Ah, yes. That, too
[Alatariel] So…that tells us Grima has…comepletely taken over theodens mind
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Jenniearcheo] Eomer hasn’t been back to Edoras, has he?
[Demosthenes] jennie: it’s as bit of a chessmatch. and the board is rohan, it seems.
[timlotr] Wormtounge having complete control, yeah, makes sense, don’t think he has jennie
[Darkover] I thought Eomer was back by this time, but had been imprisoned.
[timlotr] been a while since I read the book
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. A bit more subtle than they had to make it on the film
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, he had, and was.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, okay
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] I know he’s there at the end, as Hama sends for hjim
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the guard(s) agreed with Theoden/Wormtongue’s policy?
[Darkover] For threatening death to Grima, as I recall.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t know how far he’d had to come
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Th?en will have heard of it.
[Jenniearcheo] The outer guards?
[Blairwhitaker] I love the books just coz of all the extra content up to the film
[timlotr] I don’t think the guards agreed
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the guards agreed with Wormtongue. That was PJ’s slant, IMO
[timlotr] but they had to follow or receive the same punishment as Eomer
[Demosthenes] But they followed his orders?
[PippinForTheWin] well dems they had to follow the king’s orders, yes?
[Darkover] Yes, because Theoden allowed Grima so much power, I think
[Jenniearcheo] They are probably farther from Meduseld in mind as well as in body
[Demosthenes] I wonder how far they might have gone with that.
[Jenniearcheo] Than Hama
[Demosthenes] pippin: history is littered with examples of people who have stopped following a king’s orders.
[PippinForTheWin] true, true…
[Darkover] I suspect they would have wanted to hear the order directly from Theoden, if Wormtongue ordered Eomer’s death. Which was next on the menu, I suspect.
[Demosthenes] To some extent Hama is an example of this?
[Jenniearcheo] They follow his orders, but there’s some doubt.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but those people usually ended up imprisoned or dead themselves, too.
[timlotr] they might’ve not killed Eomer even if it was ordered I’m guessing
[Jenniearcheo] Hama does use his own judgement RE: staff and Eomer
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s an interesting thought. do you think it would have come to that?
[Raurenkili] they follow him under pressure
[Jenniearcheo] I think you’re right, Darkover
[Darkover] I definitely think it would have come to that, Demosthenes, or else Eomer would suddenly have died in his cell, or trying to “escape” or something.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad we don’t have to find out
[timlotr] Wormtounge might’ve done the killing of Eomer himself even if they didn’t follow his order (if it ever came to that that is)
[PippinForTheWin] it might have, but that doesn’t mean that the guards would follow through with it
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: yes, i do agree theoden’s men feel pressured.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s even little things: “the courtesy of your hall is lessened of late”.
[Anameleth] I think the guards feared saruman somewhat also
[Darkover] Happily, it didn’t come to that, PippinForTheWin, although I believe that some of the guards, at least, would have followed such an order if they believed it came from the King himself.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, that was in direct response to Grima’s rudeness
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: Also Theodred’s death.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[PippinForTheWin] i think that at this point, Theoden’s guards feel threatened because they realize Grima’s power. Maybe they thought that there would be no chance for survival if they refused orders?
[Jenniearcheo] timlotr: Only if he could have got away with it in secret, I think
[Darkover] Theodred’s death, we find out later, was engineered by Grima and Saruman between them. The whole purpose of the battle in which he died was to kill the son of the King.
[timlotr] right, that’s how he operates I believe jennie
[Blairwhitaker] I’d surely have noticed on seeing the king something was wrong with him
[Anameleth] Grima didnt have any REAL power, only what was in a way, given, to him.
[Anameleth] was given
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that and there was an army on Rohan’s western border. So they might have felt a need to “stay true” because of that.
[Darkover] Sure, Blairwhitaker, but seeing the problem, and being able and willing to do something about it, are two different things.
[Jenniearcheo] Remember that Théoden was in deed and in fact an old man.
[PippinForTheWin] not physical power, but anameleth, but mental power… the power to convince
[timlotr] Grima was under the influence of Saruman
[timlotr] I believe
[Phil] is it possible that the battle where Theodred dies happen when Grima wants everyone on a wild goose chase
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: in a way, Grima’s power comes from Theoden’s trust in him. Which is interesting.
[Blairwhitaker] Very true. Not sure what I could have done lol
[Darkover] IMO, the “spell” that Grima wormtongue put on Theoden was not a literal spell, the way it was portrayed in the movie.
[Demosthenes] Trust is a big part of this chapter. Who is worthy of trust? And why?
[timlotr] lol so true
[Jenniearcheo] What does Grima call Gandalf?
[Anameleth] agreed, his mental hold on everyone was more powerful than physical
[Jenniearcheo] Lathspell: Ill-news
[Darkover] I think it was more a matter of Wormtongue constantly telling the King, “Eomer is a traitor, he is young and strong while you’re an old man, and he just wants the crown for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] spell means word or news
[timlotr] Gandalf the Grey Jennie
[timlotr] I think
[Jenniearcheo] Just as Godspell meant goodspell. Gospel. Good news
[Jenniearcheo] It was Grima’s ill counsel that depressed Théoden. Not a “spell”
[Demosthenes] is lathspell an archaic word? rohirric?
[Jenniearcheo] “spell” in this case, merely meaning words
[Darkover] I think this chapter also makes the point, as Gandalf does to the King, that the person you can trust is the person who tells you what you need to hear, even if it sounds unpleasant, or isn’t what you might want to hear.
[timlotr] his voice had a charm to it some would say
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Also Anglo SAxon, of course
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a bit like strider. looks foul and feels fair.
[Demosthenes] thinking back to strider and frodo’s words at bree.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes!
[Demosthenes] this is /very/ similar.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf goes into this at the end. Originally Grima was merely an informant. But after Gandalf got free of Saruman, he started really counseling Théoden into a pessimistic depression.
[PippinForTheWin] right, jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: that would become easier after the first(?) battle of the isen too.
[Demosthenes] when Theodred fell at the ford.
[Jenniearcheo] Surely
[Jenniearcheo] Which, of course, was as arranged
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf was giving Theoden bad news, true, but I think the one most responsible for the King’s depression was Wormtongue, who was making him think that any resistance was hopeless and useless.
[Jenniearcheo] Despair was the lathspell
* Anameleth nods
[Demosthenes] ‘It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Th?red your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal Of the Mark. In ?mer there is little trust. Few men would be left to guard your walls, if he had been allowed to rule.
[Jenniearcheo] lol That’s what I meant, Darkove
[Darkover] Right, Jennie. Wormtongue was trying to sell the King on complete capitulation to Orthanc.
[Jenniearcheo] After Gandalf got free, it pushed Grima into doing so
[Demosthenes] Did anyone notice that Grima’s counsel is essentially conservative?
[Demosthenes] “do nothing”
* timlotr agrees
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Keep the men at home to guard the house
[Jenniearcheo] Not go out and interfere with saruman
[Darkover] Doing nothing isn’t necessarily conservative, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] Depression an despair can literally make people look old an withered after so long. This is what I took from the look of him in the film. Just more exaggerated
[Demosthenes] Passive, then?
[Darkover] That is what I took from the book, Blairwhitatker. From the PJ film, I got the impression that Theoden was being literally possessed by Saruman, through sorcery.
[Demosthenes] hiya ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Passive, yes, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Hi, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] I believe Théoden likens it to being bent with the weight of snow. Metaphorically, Gandalf was the wind that blew the snow off
[ChristineGolden] Hi, sorry I’m late.
[Darkover] Oooh, well put, Jennie!
[PippinForTheWin] hey christine
[Alatariel] Hi christinegolden
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: They had to make it obvious, and very quick
[Darkover] True, jennie
[timlotr] need to get going for now peeps, I’ll join y’all next week
[Demosthenes] jennie: like a deciduous tree in winter
[Anameleth] I like than metaphor jennie
[Darkover] bye, timlotr
* Alatariel agrees with Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Demosthenes] Do you remember how Gandalf cautions his companions to “speak no haughty word…”? Do you think he practises what he preaches? Also, does Aragorn come close to going against this?
[Jenniearcheo] With the sword, perhaps
[Demosthenes] yes, with the sword. that is an odd little episode.
[ChristineGolden] No and yes, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, all the fuss about the swords was useful in letting him keep the staff. Which was the only really useful weapon
[Demosthenes] Aragorn stood a while hesitating. ‘It is not my will,’ he said, ‘to put aside my sword or to deliver And?to the hand of any other man.’
[Demosthenes] ‘It is the will of Th?en,’ said H?.
[Darkover] Gandalf is more blunt than haughty, IMO, Demosthenes. He is just telling the King the truth, but he keeps his manners while doing so.
[PippinForTheWin] i think gandalf is an exception to his own words because he knows that doing so will free Theoden
[Darkover] Saruman is the haughty one, with his attitude that the King should acknowledge his authority before getting any “help” from Orthanc
[Demosthenes] Darkover: He does seem to let Grima implicate himself?
[PippinForTheWin] at the hands of anyone else, it wouldn’t turn out so well
[Matteo] he skirts the edge though
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Perhaps Gandalf understood that for Theoden to be truly free and start behaving like a King again, Theoden would have to figure it out for himself.
[Demosthenes] Possibly because Grima is so much in theoden’s trust that he has to let that trust be destroyed first.
[Jenniearcheo] Funny that there’s a real thunderstorm going on. It looked like Gandalf called it up.
[Darkover] Besides, no matter how pressing the need, it would not be advisable for Gandalf to just charge in and take over. It is the King’s Hall, not his, although Gandalf does give Grima a quick lesson in manners!
[Darkover] You summed it up well, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] jennie: maybe he did?
[PippinForTheWin] but gandalf wouldn’t get anything done with grima at theoden’s side
[Demosthenes] maybe it’s chance
[PippinForTheWin] so yes, dems, i think you’re right
[Demosthenes] He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe.
[Darkover] Right, Pippin, which is why Gandalf helped Theoden to understand what a worm Grima was.
[Darkover] I’m not sure anything happens by chance in Tolken’s world, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Did he call it up, or somehow know it was coming and use it?
[Anameleth] i agree with pippin, Gandalf had to get rid of grima in order to even confront theoden
[Demosthenes] ‘Now Th?en son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?’ said Gandalf. ‘Do you ask for help?’ He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he damped down the fire
[Demosthenes] And again that weather … metaphor.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, ‘chance’ seems to be more like fate in ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Right.
[Jenniearcheo] And light being hope
[Darkover] Or Providence, Chris, as I suspect Tolkien would call it.
[Demosthenes] A fool’s hope?
[Jenniearcheo] HOpe in the face of the despair long wrought by Grima
[Matteo] I always thought that Gandalf came back with a little more foresight than before.
[Darkover] Probably, Matteo, since he had been to the other side.
[Jenniearcheo] He’s certainly more sure of himself
[Demosthenes] In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: ‘Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, H?, has betrayed us!’ There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[Darkover] BTW, I find it significant that Gandalf specifically asked the King if Theoden wanted help.
[Demosthenes] Along the same lines, what does Gandalf do to Grima?
[Jenniearcheo] I wonder why Grima fell down?
[Jenniearcheo] I have no idea
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Yes, that’s a good observation.
[Blairwhitaker] I live how wizards seem to have thier own rules on magic an life. Almost like a different species to hobbits an men or elves
[Jenniearcheo] Hi miriel
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, though, about Gandalf being able to control the weather. If he could, why didn’t he stop the snow storm at the Redhorn Gate?
[Darkover] Not sure specifically why he fell, but I’m sure it was Gandalf’s doing.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] *love
[Matteo] perhaps because he is a coward at heart
[PippinForTheWin] Once Gandalf returns, isn’t he the most powerful of the Isatari? So he would be more sure of himself knowing that he could defeat the enemy behind this
[Darkover] Howdy, Miriel
[miri_HOF] hi all
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure that was ordinary weather, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Seb
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: didn’t want to draw attention there? Here, it’s not so important. Secrecy versus need.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Xanaseb.
[Phil] hi little m
[Xanaseb] hey hey.
[Darkover] Gandalf the White was more powerful than G. the Grey, Pippin, but that doesn’t mean his success was guaranteed.
[ChristineGolden] Sounds like
[PippinForTheWin] hi xanaseb
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i agree. Gandalf the white brings no guarantees of anything. just hope.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he simply knew the storm was coming and used it, the lightning flash, the ray through the clouds, etc
[ChristineGolden] hhmmm, sounds like a stretch to me. After all, the Company’s peril was deeper on the mountain than in Theoden’s hall.
[Demosthenes] he says as much to Theoden, too:
[Demosthenes] ‘Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears.
[Xanaseb] Darkover, Chris, PippinForTheWin
[miri_HOF] I think, that one of the reasons G the White was more powerful was that he could use a lot of power for a last chance. An all or nothing situation
[Blairwhitaker] I always thought he came bk as G the white as a metaphor for wisdom
[Phil] hi Xana
[Matteo] creating a momentary localized storm cloud is very different from actually affecting “world wide” weather phenomena like a snow storm
[Xanaseb] Phil
[miri_HOF] if he loses, he will leave, if he wins, he will leave
[Darkover] Also, as “the White,” I believe it symbolized that Gandalf was taking Saruman’s place
[miri_HOF] while gandalf the grey walked for many an age
[Jenniearcheo] If he could muck with the weather, you’d think he’d have used it other times
[PippinForTheWin] Jennie: Tolkien did want to stray away from ‘magic’, right? So maybe Tolkien tried his hardest to make it seem like magic without it actually being magic
[Demosthenes] Blairwhitaker: wisdom, hope and trust, i guess.
[Darkover] since Saruman had once been “the White.”
[Xanaseb] yeah, what with the many colours thing
[Anameleth] Thats so true pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] yes, PippinForTheWin. Agreed
[Raurenkili] brb
[Matteo] also purity, purity of thought and purpose
[miri_HOF] indeed PippinForTheWin
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would have made it clearer if Gandalf was able to control the weather. After all, he made no secret about Sauron’s ability to do so.
[Jenniearcheo] And it wasn’t considered a good thing
[miri_HOF] well, saurons ability had a lot to o with orodruin
[Jenniearcheo] It’s interfering with nature, after all
[Darkover] That makes sense, Chris. I doubt if Gandalf actually could control weather, either. Someone suggested a moment ago that he knew the storm was coming, and made use of it, which seems more likely to me.
[miri_HOF] after all, having a volcano is rather convienient if you want to mess with clouds
[Xanaseb] I dunno Chris, it’s a question of how much Gandalf or *any* magical being for that matter, was willing to use their full power/potential
[Xanaseb] of course, Sauron wouldn’t resist using his power
[Xanaseb] but Gandalf..
[Xanaseb] most certainly so
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure Gandalf would hold back if it would save the world . . .
[Jenniearcheo] But mostly the power he seems to gain is knowledge.
[Xanaseb] indeed.
[Jenniearcheo] (in his reincarnation)
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the Istari were given specific powers to fight Sauron.
[Anameleth] I think gandalf knew magic had a time and place in every situation, and used it acordingly
[Darkover] Of course, Xanaseb makes a telling point, too. “White” or not, Gandalf’s essential mission was still the same, to get out there and encourage/inspire people to resist Sauron as much as possible, not to do the whole job for them.
[Xanaseb] Anameleth, precisely
[Matteo] it seems that gandalf was never meant to save middle earth, just help those that would
[Demosthenes] Matteo: that’s right.
[Darkover] So, in other words, maybe he could control the weather, but that wasn’t his most important power, or maybe he thought it unwise to do so too often.
[Xanaseb] we shouldn’t percieve magic as a click of the fingers..
[ChristineGolden] Which would mean that Gandalf’s powers would be specific and limited, Darkover.
[PippinForTheWin] Exactly, Darkover. How would the world learn from its mistakes if these wizards just kept coming in to save them?
[Xanaseb] *eive
[Anameleth] agreed darkover, he could have, indeed, used his power to control the weather, simply to inspire
[Anameleth] if he cpuld even control the weather at all
[Anameleth] could
[Darkover] Well, I think as “the Grey,” they were limited, Chris. Don’t know about the “White,” but he still wanted others to do all they could themselves, as well.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not real big on “could have” in books.
[PippinForTheWin] I think that Gandalf relaized that if he didn’t control the weather at that moment to help Theoden, they would lose the war
[Darkover] And a bit of theater never hurts!
[Matteo] its possble it was a most an illusion, like darkening a room and seeming larger
[Jenniearcheo] At the end, he has the hobbits go deal with Saruman themselves, while he goes off to have tea with Tom
[ChristineGolden] I think it was simply Tolkien using nature (again) to dramatize the moment.
[miri_HOF] on the other hand: if something would almost completely destroy a whole race, they won’t learn from it either way
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: Except they go outside and it’s raining
[PippinForTheWin] Maybe Tolkien was trying to symbolize how important nature is in vital situations
[Matteo] coincidence
[PippinForTheWin] how it marks the difference between life and death
[Demosthenes] It’s too coincidental to be coincidence.
[Matteo]
[Demosthenes] If that makes sense!
[Darkover] Actually, in the first Hobbit movie, Gandalf tells one of the dwarves that he can’t do anything about the rain. Don’t know if that was following canon, or just a good line for the movie.
[Blairwhitaker] Or just nature itself tuning into gandalf at his time of need
[Jenniearcheo] The coincidence is that a handy thunderstorm appears to freak Grima out at just the right moment
[Jenniearcheo] And a sunbeam to offer Théoden hope
[Anameleth] maybe he was trying to teach them a lesson darkover
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, maybe the Valar were eavesdropping.
[Anameleth] about patience or something
[Jenniearcheo] The rain is just gravy
[Jenniearcheo] But less sticky
[Blairwhitaker] He may have been able to clear a small gap in the cloud to give hope
[Darkover] ha, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf could’ve just asked the Valar for help
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure much of this is escaping the attention of the Valar at this point
[ChristineGolden] Is there any other instance in LotR when Gandalf appears to control the weather?
[Darkover] I don’t believe so, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Not so far as I can remember
[PippinForTheWin] I don’t think so
[Blairwhitaker] Me either
[miri_HOF] nope, cannot recall
[ChristineGolden] Well, I’d think if he had that power, he would have used it more than once.
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: Ah, remember Manwe is the lord of the skies. I was thinking of that when I was reading this last night. But if it is the influence of the Valar, it is very, very subtle.
[Matteo] he does try to stop the snow storm befoe they go to moria, or is that just in the movie?
[PippinForTheWin] But Saruman caused the snowstorm, right?
[Anameleth] There are coincidences when he says he wont though
[ChristineGolden] That’s the movie, Pippin.
[Demosthenes] A tiny, tiny adjustment of the canvas that Gandalf has to work upon.
[Jenniearcheo] The mountain may have caused the snowstorm
[PippinForTheWin] I know, Christine. Haven’tread the books in ages
[Jenniearcheo] But we never really find out
[PippinForTheWin] *Haven’t read
[Demosthenes] There’s another one in Return of the King that I think might have been the Valar. We’ll come to that down the track.
[Jenniearcheo] It could have been Saruman (since he sent the birds and knew they were there) or Sauron
[ChristineGolden] Well, we do know that Gandalf was unable to stop that storm and it was far more important than a cloud and thunderclap over Edoras.
[miri_HOF] Demosthenes: manwe did some pretty nice work when Numenor was misbehaving, though
[Blairwhitaker] I suspect maybe he can control the weather but as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely, gandalf won’t use it when ever he wants only at times of dire need
[Matteo] I thought that the Valar had decided not to become involved directly in middle earth at this point. Hince the istari
[Demosthenes] miri: yes. yes he did. it’s an interesting thing to consider.
[Demosthenes] matteo: indeed. but is a nudge here and there direct involvement? Hmmmm.
[Anameleth] i agree Blair
[Jenniearcheo] Mind you, ChristineGolden, he is more powerful now than he was as Gandalf the Grey . . . Still, I don’t think he could control the weather, or he’d have used it later.
[ChristineGolden] Then he should have used it at the Redhorn Gate, Blairwhitaker, but he didn’t. So, I can only conclude he didn’t have such a power.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t call a nudge here and there direct involvement, but there is nothing wrong with them still taking an interest.
[Darkover] Sending the occasional eagle, that sort of thing.
[Demosthenes] Tulkas wrestling Sauron is gonna make a big dent in Gondor’s landscape. but, a bit of lightning and thunder to help out Gandy? No harm there.
[miri_HOF] lol darkover
[Darkover] Right!
[Xanaseb] lol
[Jenniearcheo] And perhaps they sent him a heads-up that the storm was coming?
[Blairwhitaker] Haha
[ChristineGolden] I think we’re adding an awfully lot of speculation without much to support it.
[Jenniearcheo] As I said, I think his main power is awareness and knowledge
[Anameleth] I dontthink gandalf wants to control the whole situation, only when it is dire
[Darkover] Probably. But we do love to speculate and discuss here.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: well, another person might call it Providence!
[PippinForTheWin] I think the Valar tried hardest to not be involved unless Morgorth was involved, because nobody would be able to stop him
[Anameleth] that is why he hardly uses magic
[Darkover] If you use magic too much, people expect you to use it all the time, and to solve their problems for them, I think.
[Susanita] clockmaker valar
[Puma] the valar were very involved in lotr
[Anameleth] Exactly darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Hi puma
[Darkover] As I said before, Gandalf’s main job was to get people to resist Sauron, and to help themselves
[PippinForTheWin] And we really can’t forget how hard Tolkien tried to stay away from the idea of magic
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and I enjoy it, too. But it needs something to support the argument.
[Darkover] Thank you, Anameleth
[Puma] that is correct darkover.that was his job
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Matteo] yeah, less magic and more inherent power
[Demosthenes] He’s a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] That’s what we see in this chapter.
[Darkover] Good word, Demosthenes
[miri_HOF] “teach a man to fish”….
[Susanita] zackly miri
[miri_HOF] oh, very good choice of words dems
[Demosthenes] By “catalysing” Theoden, he motivates an entire people (the rohirrim).
[Xanaseb] yeah, I entirely agree with the catalyst thing
[Demosthenes] It’s a very strategic intervention.
[Puma] i am here when you are well on….but did you discuss how at the door to meduseld…gandalf and aragorn supported one another
[Demosthenes] Least intervention ofr the most effect.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was much more credible than the movie version, Demosthenes
[PippinForTheWin] Not necessarily a catalyst, Demosthenes. While catalysts simply speed up a process, Gandalf did more by helping the people. If Gandalf weren’t there, the War would’ve been lost. Without a catalyst, the process would still happen, just slower.
[Jenniearcheo] What the business with the swords vs staff. Yes
[Darkover] I suspect many of Rohan’s warriors agreed more with Eomer than Theoden. Do something about those orcs rampaging through their country.
[Blairwhitaker] Well 10 mins till midnight. Gona have to now
[Susanita] let’s hear it for strategic intervention
[Darkover] Goodnight, Blairwhitaker
[Demosthenes] Some processes cannot happen without a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] night blair!
[miri_HOF] indeed, they need the cathalyst to start
[Jenniearcheo] Distract Hama with the fuss and argument about the swords, appear to capitulate, and then call the staff proscription an over-the-top demand
[miri_HOF] but they can continue without it
[ChristineGolden] It’s like Pippin and Merry meeting Treebeard: without that meeting, the Ents would not have marched on Isengard, etc.
[Puma] yes jennie.but gandalf also proclaimed aragorns name
[Darkover] Well, Sauron wouldn’t have been defeated without Gandalf. I think we can all agree on that.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, ChristineGolden.
[Raurenkili] goodbye everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Oh. True, Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Raurenkili
[miri_HOF] agreed Darkover
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah, agree. So is Aragorn being all bluster? Or clever? You could argue both seemingly. Is it an unspoken thing? Or did they plan it?
[PippinForTheWin] bye raurenkili!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Raurenkili
[Susanita] see ya Raurenkili
[Puma] sorry i missed 1st part of this convo
[Matteo] bye rauren
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to say.
[Puma] good turnout today also
[ChristineGolden] I think book Aragorn is a proud man, esp of his lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, what specific incident or remarks of Aragorn are you referring to, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] Does Gandy give over Glamdring to distract from the sword?
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And what is it that prompts Hama to trust them?
[Raurenkili] bye Puma
[Darkover] Oh, the surrender of the weapons at the door. I doubt if Aragorn was blustering–that is not his style.
[Demosthenes] ‘The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age’ said H?. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. ‘Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.’
[Demosthenes] I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf gives over Glamdring to make Aragorn reluctantly give up Anduril
[Matteo] there ya go
[Darkover] Gandalf had come to Edoras before, and Hama probably remembered and trusted him.
[Xanaseb] ah the classic staff thing
[Xanaseb] hehe
[PippinForTheWin] I think Hama think that the situation can’t get worse, so what harm can a staff do
[Jenniearcheo] Bait and switch
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one explanation for sure!
[Puma] and did you also notice.this is one of six instances in lotr that not following orders was the right decision
[Jenniearcheo] Congrats for counting. lol
[Darkover] Actually, I hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned it, jennie, but I’m not sure Aragorn would have surrendered his sword, without Gandalf first surrendering Glamdring.
[ChristineGolden] What’s the quote, Demosthenes, about Strider? If you were an agent of the enemy, you would be more foul and seem more fair? Perhaps that’s how Hama thinks, too.
[miri_HOF] lol
[Jenniearcheo] I assume Pippin at the Houses is one
[Darkover] You *counted* them, Puma? I’m impressed.
[Demosthenes] puma: I’m surprised there’s not seven seeing as seven pops up so very often in Tolkien.
[PippinForTheWin] Wow, Puma. That’s amazing!
[Puma] its an important theme in lotr
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[ChristineGolden] You noticed that, too, Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] seven for the win
[miri_HOF] what are the others, I wonder?
[PippinForTheWin] What are some examples of seven?
[miri_HOF] (off topic, but I’m curious)
[Matteo] we’ll have to do a recount
[Jenniearcheo] stars stones rings
[PippinForTheWin] ah
[Puma] eomer letting aragorn gimli and legolas roam free
[Xanaseb] great fact Puma btw.
[miri_HOF] 1
[PippinForTheWin] aren’t there seven palantir as well?
[Darkover] weren’t there seven fathers of the dwarves, too?
[miri_HOF] yep Darkover
[Puma] faramir not taking frodo and sam to minas tirith
[Demosthenes] seven stars. seven stones. seven names for gondolin. seven sons of feanor. seven sevens to seven the seven. it’s everywhere.
[Darkover] thanks, Miri
[miri_HOF] and durin woke alone
[ChristineGolden] and the dwarf kings had seven rings.
[Susanita] would you count Sam not staying away from the council?
[PippinForTheWin] But Sam wasn’t told not to come to the Council
[ChristineGolden] Seven is considered to be a sacred number.
[PippinForTheWin] So I don’t think so
[Puma] not really,there was no order.but good point
[Darkover] He wasn’t invited, Pippin, as Elrond pointedly observed.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that’s true.
[Puma] beregond not obeying his orders saved faramir
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin didn’t go away and die either
[miri_HOF] 2
[Jenniearcheo] As instructed
[Xanaseb] that’s a nice one with Beregond
[miri_HOF] lol jennie
[Darkover] Probably the most important example of how disobeying orders can be the right thing to do–Beregond protecting Faramir
[PippinForTheWin] I was just thinking that, Jennie!!
[Puma] so not obeying orders is an important theme….people have to use their own judgement
[Jenniearcheo] Merry snuck along with “Dernhelm”
[Puma] yes
[miri_HOF] so many, really
[Puma] and eowyn had been ordered to stay at dunharrow
[Darkover] Eowyn herself disobeyed orders by becoming “Dernhelm,” didn’t she?
[ChristineGolden] So was Merry, Puma
[Susanita] yeah that one’s kinda big
[Puma] yes christine….
[Demosthenes] Hama does use his own judgement. I think that’s similar to what Eomer does with “the three hunters”, and reflective of how troubled the guards at the main gate of Edoras were.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] I agree, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Pippin was ordered not to touch anything in Moria… that turned out well.
[Puma] jrr repeats this theme constantly for a reason
[PippinForTheWin] lol Christine
[Darkover] Well, disobeying orders is not always a good idea.
[Puma] correct
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[Matteo] oh no a bad one
[Puma] and there are instances of that
[Anameleth] True darkover
[Xanaseb] pretty fascinating, anyhow
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Gandalf’s resurrection wouldn’t have happened without Pippin
[Puma] gandalf was reincarnated.not resurrected
[ChristineGolden] As I recall, he was also ordered not to touch the Palantir.
[Xanaseb] well, the orcs might have found them anyway Jennie
[Xanaseb] even if Pippin hadn’t messed around
[Susanita] uh oh not that again
[Matteo] haha
[Xanaseb] Sus hey
[Susanita] llamaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true, too. We were talking earlier how everyone disobeying orders in Rohan could have easily caused it to fall apart. Revolution. In-fighting. Eomer in particular treads a fine line there.
[Darkover] yeah, I agree. Let’s not start the ressurrection vs. reincarnation debate again.
[miri_HOF] so… pippin disobeying: bad short-term, great long term results
[Puma] okie
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t matter, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had to fall and die
[PippinForTheWin] Also, we can’t forget how Merry and Pippin were ordered to not be in the Fellowship… and yet they were and look how great that urned out
[Puma] pippin showed gandalf it was indeed a palantir.and saved gandalf looking himself
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. By threatening death to Grima *in Theoden’s Hall,* he was flying in the face of a long-standing law/tradition, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] And get reincarnated or whatever you wish to term it
[miri_HOF] they were allowed
[miri_HOF] but grudgingly
[Darkover] Eomer should have taken Grima outside. I wonder if Wormtongue deliberately provoked that incident, in order to get Eomer locked up?
[miri_HOF] (not accountable for spelling at 2:00)
[PippinForTheWin] got to go now bye!!!
[Puma] btw…i did research on our peredhil convo….but will save that for another time
[Susanita] bye pip
[Darkover] Bye, Pippin!
[ChristineGolden] Yes, there’s something in appendix A about that, Darkover, and King Helm.
[Demosthenes] Eomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[PippinForTheWin] i hope to be back next week
[Darkover] We hope you are too, Pippin
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the more here.the more we learn by discourse
[ChristineGolden] Helm says in Appendix A to some king who wants to marry his son to Helm’s daughter that violence is forbidden within the hall.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, Helm took a disrespectful lord outside, in order to refuse him and punch him out, getting the name “Hammerhand” in the process.
[Puma] freca
[Darkover] Right, thanks Puma, couldn’t recall the name
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[Jenniearcheo] night
[Puma] sweet dreams
[ChristineGolden] That’s him. I’ve told you before, I’m horrible with names.
[Susanita] g’night Anameleth
[Xanaseb] night night!
[Darkover] But that demostrates that the “law of the Hall” is a long-standing tradition, one that apparently even the King didn’t break.
[Darkover] Bye, Anameleth
[Puma] very true darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] No weapons in the hall? A bit like not running with scissors.
[ChristineGolden] So, yes, Gandalf was breaking the sanctuary of the Golden Hall.
[Darkover] Didn’t say there were no weapons in the Hall, Demosthenes, just that you weren’t supposed to *use* them in the Hall, or at least, that is the impression I’m left with.
[Puma] well….is the staff really a weapon….that is debateable
[Demosthenes] puma: if i start hitting you with a stick, you’d probably agree it was a weapon.
[Darkover] Hama’s being ordered to relieve our heroes of their weapons was apparently a new or recent order.
[Puma] i could find points either way
[Matteo] Yes, I’m pretty sure in case of attack there were armed guards and such, it was probably a “stranger danger” thing in this case
[Darkover] While you were ducking the blows, Puma?
[Susanita] a stapler could be a weapon
[Puma] nah
[Jenniearcheo] Because Grima knew they were coming. Gandalf in particular
[Susanita] or a pencil
[ChristineGolden] Oh, yes, Puma, large sticks are one of man’s oldest weapons.
[Puma] just swat them aside
[Susanita] which I used in first grade on a punk little boy
[Darkover] He probably had it coming, Susanita
[Susanita] he did
[Darkover] lol
[Puma] but that is like hobits being great at throwing stones…not exactly a conventional weapon
[Susanita] little perv tried to look up my skirt
[Darkover] eeww
[Jenniearcheo] So Théoden goes outside and cheers up a bit, but not wholly.
[Jenniearcheo] It still takes a sword
[Darkover] Well, jennie, I doubt if things could be remedied in an instant
[Matteo] well they didnt have game boys so, throwing rocks was probably a skill learned very young
[Puma] well…..remember….theoden “fall” was his own fault
[ChristineGolden] Possibly a phallic symbol, Jennie?
[Darkover] Wormtongue’s been working on him for a long time. He will need a bit of encouragement to start being kingly again.
[Puma] so theoden had a lot to make up for.and he did
[Jenniearcheo] A power symbol, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] I think it was a symbol of power, as in the power to cut someone’s head off, Chris!
[Puma] theoden had gotten lazy with his job as king
[ChristineGolden] Theoden regaining his sword could be a metaphor for regaining his [sidelong glance at Barliman] “manhood.”
[Jenniearcheo] A symbol of power in his hands. Rather than the despair of being a powerless victim
[Darkover] and frightened, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: a bit like the sceptre (of annuminas)
[Puma] every1 was frightened
[Jenniearcheo] Note that everyone lays their own swords at his feet
[Demosthenes] Swords are used to dispense justice (ie: lopp people’s heads off)
[Darkover] I always thought sceptres were meant to symbolize the might of clubs, rather than phallic symbols, but then, I am not a Freudian.
* Susanita blinks
[Puma] and also notice….it was eomer who gave him guthwine
[Susanita] sorry, dem
[ChristineGolden] Me, either, Darkover, but swords are used throughout lit as phallic symbols – thus my comment.
[Puma] he did not get herugrim till later
[Darkover] true, Chris
[Demosthenes] why does Gandalf say that Saruman is “apt to overlook his bargains”?
[Darkover] And Puma, everyone was frightened, but not everyone was the King, in charge of protecting the land and its people, and an old man whose strength was fading, and having a counselor who kept pouring metaphorical poison in his ears.
[ChristineGolden] He’s a liar and a cheat.
[ChristineGolden] Saruman, that is.
[Demosthenes] Is he “gaming” Wormtongue? Trying to sow dissension?
[Puma] yes darkover.but theoden let it happen
[Darkover] I think that was Gandalf’s way of saying even if Saruman agreed to leave Theoden and Rohan alone, he couldn’t be counted on to keep his word.
[Susanita] what Darkover said
* Puma nods to darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Who was it that suggested allowing Grima to prove himself. or not?
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Demosthenes] Jennie: theoden i think. that weas clever. very clever.
[Puma] i believe that was gandalf Jennie
[Matteo] yes, it was very King Solomonish
[Demosthenes] ‘If this is bewitchment,’ said Th?en, ‘it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast. No, not one shall be left, not even Gr?. Gr? shall ride too. Go! You have yet time to clean the rust from your sword.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Mercy, lord!’ whined Wormtongue, grovelling on the ground. ‘Have pity on one worn out in your service. Send me not from your side! I at least will stand by you when all others have gone. Do not send your faithful Gr? away!’
[Darkover] Oh, I’m not saying theoden was totally blameless, Puma, just saying that his position was under more pressure than that of the ordinary citizen. And that Theoden wasn’t going to snap out of it immediately.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Theoden, supported by Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] ‘You have my pity,’ said Th?en. ‘And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with my men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith.’
[miri_HOF] that one is powerfully written
[Puma] i can agree with that darkover
[Darkover] None of which cheered Grima up at all.
[Demosthenes] Dilemma. Wormtongue cannot continuue to play both sides without endangering his skin.
[Jenniearcheo] Ultimately a coward
[Puma] yes.grima was caught in his own net
[DawnWolf] hello all (;
[Susanita] hi DW
[Darkover] And yet, even then, he was continuing to stall and to serve his true master, Saruman, by doing so, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Such people usually are, Jennie.
[Puma] gday Dawnwolf
[Darkover] Hi, DawnWolf
[miri_HOF] hi again DawnWolf
[DawnWolf] susi (;
[DawnWolf] hey miri (;
* Dwynaway is now known as Dwyna
[Demosthenes] Darkover: time is the enemy of Gandalf here. and the friend of Saruman. Wormtongue knows this: the longer he can keep Theoden from Westfold the more likely Saruman’s forces are to triumph.
[Demosthenes] So that’s why he plays a delaying game throughout.
* Puma nods
[Susanita] hey Dwyna
[Darkover] Right!
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] Hi, Dwyna
[Demosthenes] So Saruman can defeat Rohan piecemeal.
[Dwyna] hi Susanita
[ChristineGolden] But how long is the delay, really?
[Dwyna] hello Darkover
[Demosthenes] Sun Tzu would approve.
[Susanita] hehe dem
[Dwyna] yep
[Darkover] Not very long, maybe, but any delay is not good at this point, Chris
[Puma] a few hrs at that time….and every minute counted
[Jenniearcheo] Probably his last instruction
[Demosthenes] Since the first battle of the fords of the isen?
[Demosthenes] Which was several days ago.
[Puma] 5 days b4
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, I’d guess. Plus the warning RE: Gandalf
[Matteo] well it would take time to gather the horses and supplies and then they wouldnt travel that much at night so possibly a whole day or more
[Darkover] And Theodred’s death would have left the King feeling even more bereft and vulnerable
[Puma] yes
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt that the exchange between Grima and Theoden lasted longer than an hour, and the Rohhirrim were already mustering. I think Grima failed on this one.
[Puma] he did fail
[Darkover] But not for lack of trying. What a traitor and a creep.
[Puma] and in the end.they were better off going to helms deep than fords
[ChristineGolden] I mean in causing any significant delay, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, he’s succeeded in allowing the army to build up
[Matteo] I’m thinking maybe at this point it was less keeping THeoden distracted and more delaying his return to sauruman in failure
[Demosthenes] Failure doesn’t mean he didn’t try. And i think Grima was always looking to create delay, or confusion.
[Puma] just 1000
[Demosthenes] It was something he’d been doing for a long while.
[Demosthenes] And ever Wormtongue’s whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.
[Puma] yet grima had been of useful service in the past
[Darkover] Very true. You can’t help someone who won’t listen
[Jenniearcheo] Was he solely motivated by greed (getting the pickings of Meduseld and getting Eowyn) or also scairt of Saruman and the Riders?
[Puma] saruman turned grima by promising him eowyn
[Darkover] It must have been quite distant, Puma. And was he serving Saruman secretly even then?
[ChristineGolden] Probably first by greed, Jennie, then later, also fear.
[Demosthenes] Yes, Puma. I think Gandalf ackowledges that. I suspect that’s why he lets him go, too?
[Jenniearcheo] I remember the riders scaring the pants off him at some point
[Darkover] I think that is in the appendices somewhere, Jennie
[Darkover] I could be wrong
[Darkover] Demosthenes or Puma would probably know
[Jenniearcheo] Definitely not. I haven’t read them
[Puma] what are you referring to darkover
[ChristineGolden] I only remember Grima at Meduseld, Isengard, and in the Shire.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, perhaps the fear of them convinced him of Saruman’s (and Sauron’s of course) ultimate power.
[Demosthenes] Oh, there is something in the hunt for the ring about that.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t the riders have some story about finding a dude on the way back to Edoras from Isengard and questioning him?
[Jenniearcheo] Where am I remembering that from?
[ChristineGolden] Grima was evil at heart – he was bound to get involved with ‘the wrong people.’
[Demosthenes] unfinished tales.
[Darkover] There is some passage about when Grima meets up with the Nazgul, or vice versa, and he can hardly tell them what they want to know fast enough to save his life. He was quite terrified, and it was touch-and-go whether they would let him go, as I recall, although they did.
[Puma] that sound like UT.fords of isen
[Darkover] I don’t recall where the passage appears, either, except it wasn’t in the body of the LotR books
[Demosthenes] i believe the black captain thought that putting the fear into him would make him potentially useful (if still unreliable)
[Darkover] You are probably right, then, Puma
[Susanita] brb
[Puma] or are you referring to gandalfs meeting with elfhelm?
[Darkover] Yes, and terror was probably the main weapon of the Nazgul, anyway
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think the Nazgul instilled fear like most people breath, Demosthenes – pure habit.
[Demosthenes] and fanatical devotion to the pope.
[Puma] fear was always the nazguls main weapon
[Demosthenes] err, Sauron.
[Darkover] A little Monty Python allusion, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think it was part of some discussion of the Nazgul’s fear-whammy
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Demosthenes] i am perchance easily amused.
[Matteo] yeah, they had a very disturbing affect on ppl
[Puma] well….we had a view of the black breath all the back to bree….when merry faced nazgul
[Matteo] i mean i know when i first read the books they gave me the heebie geebies
[Susanita] back
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think this all came up when we were discussing the black breath etc.
[Puma] side
[Demosthenes] We should talk about Aragorn and Eowyn before we wind up.
[Susanita]
[Darkover] Yes, their initial relationship is both touching and sad
[Jenniearcheo] He seems a bit worried about her attraction to him
[Demosthenes] ‘Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ she said. ‘Hail Lady of Rohan!’ he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was a bit cloying.
[Darkover] Yes, because he eventually realizes she is falling in love with him, and he can’t return the sentiment
[Darkover] Gosh, Chris, don’t you have any romance in your soul?
[Puma] its sad.but a window into eowyns mind
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, he realizes she is falling for him
[ChristineGolden] “long, lingering looks” and “words unspoken between us” kinda stuff.
[Puma] but it was only 1 way
[Jenniearcheo] her hand trembles when they touch at the cup exchange
[Darkover] Although at that point, she might have fallen for any attractive, strong, brave man who showed up
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I do, Darkover, but I don’t show it like actors in a B movie.
[Demosthenes] or hobbit
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, any potential king will do
[Susanita] two sentences that pack a big wallop
[Darkover] Yes, Aragorn was in love with Arwen, Puma
[Matteo] haha, yeah the only other choice was grima
[Demosthenes] ‘Speak not so!’ she answered. ‘A year shall I endure for every day that passes until your return.’ But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.
[Demosthenes] ‘The king shall come again,’ he said. ‘Fear not! Not West but East does our doom await us.’
[Puma] anything was better to eowyn than the despair of theoden
[Demosthenes] Aragorn dodges again. but with soemthing portentous this time.
[Jenniearcheo] True, Puma. I don’t think she’d have looked twice at Aragorn when Théoden was still down with the case of Depression.
[Darkover] I don’t believe at that point, Jennie, that Eowyn knew that Aragorn was a king, or would be. I believe she loved him because he was “high and puissant,” as someone describes him later. Plus, he seems like a way out of the situation she is in.
[Matteo] so Aragorn is both an escape from her current life and someone desirable to her
[ChristineGolden] That’s another thing: why doesn’t Aragorn just man up and say, sorry, but there’s someone else?
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: Didn’t Gandalf out him at the door?
[Susanita] she was limited in her choices among the Rohirrim I would think
[Demosthenes] jennie: they four seem like miracle workers to Rohirrim. Also, an elf and a dwarf would be remarkable company. “legends spring from the grass” and all that.
[Susanita] being the king’s neice and all
[Puma] well….think how the dunedain were later described….and aragorn was of course their leader….the men of rohan looked like boys beside the dunedain
[Darkover] I always got the impression that before Gandalf’s arrival, Theoden was almost at the point of needing to be spoon-fed. And guess who would have had to do that? No wonder Eowyn was so frustrated!
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf might have revealed who Aragorn was, I don’t recall.
[Darkover] Exactly, Puma. Why shouldn’t Eowyn have been attracted to him?
[Jenniearcheo] He did, at the door.
[Demosthenes] I doubt any rohirrim had ever seen either an elf, or a dwarf. and claims of being Elendil’s heir … i would guess that there would be mighty legends surrounding that name.
[Puma] also remember…theoden would know who aragorn was….they had met b4
[Matteo] i thought aragorn had been to Rohan before?would she not know him from that?
[Darkover] All very impressive
[ChristineGolden] But she could have married someone from Gondor (and finally did), Susanita. After all, that’s how Theoden’s father found a wife.
[Darkover] Aragorn had served Rohan before, but long before Eowyn was born.
[Jenniearcheo] And this was after armorning up and all. Word would have gotten around who ARagorn was before the toast
[Demosthenes] It would be as if Nelson Mandela or someone equally amazing came up and engaged you or i in chit-chat.
[Susanita] zackly my point
[Puma] but theoden would know aragorn.he was old enough
[Puma] and theoden adreesed aragorn as lord….he knew
[ChristineGolden] Trust me on this one, Demosthenes: Mandela could talk to me until the Second Coming and he wouldn’t make me hot.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that
[Demosthenes] well, choose your poison then
[Darkover] lol, Chris, but I quite agree. There are more physically attractive examples, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] justin beiber for everyone then!
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Dwyna] O.O
[Puma] aack
[Darkover] Er, no
[Jenniearcheo] Even my teenage fell beast won’t go near him
[Jenniearcheo] She prefers someone from Sleeping with Sirens
[Demosthenes] Basically, Aragorn has suddenly become a superstar in Rohan.
[Puma] yes
* Dwyna shudders
[Matteo] yep all that and a bag of chips, suddenly she sees salvation, and I feel like he speaks to her differently than the other men in her life
[Puma] that theoden knew who araogrn was…is one of things the movies put in.and jrr just expected us to figure out
[Jenniearcheo] Kellin Quinn, she says. There you go.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure about that. Tolkien’s Aragorn has the kind of manly virtues that would have been very admired by anyone in that age, heir to the throne of Gondor or not.
[Darkover] BTW, someone asked a few comments back why Aragorn didn’t just announce that he was in love with someone else. I think he didn’t want to embarrass Eowyn by being too open about it. After all, although her feelings were pretty plain, she hadn’t shown any *open* indication of interest.
[Susanita] he’s probably ever so slightly exotic and that makes him compelling too
[Demosthenes] Darkover: agreed. also it would kill tension.
[Puma] good observation darkover.and true
[Darkover] Plus, Aragorn was probably hot. Maybe not as handsome as an Elf, but hot by Rohirric standards.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Was Aragorn sure, at this point, that Arwen wasn’t going West?
[Matteo] haha, in the end I guess you do have to fall back on, Cuz thats how the Professor wrote it
[Demosthenes] That makes Gimli the equivalent of the superstar band’s drummer?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Or the bassist
[Susanita] spontaneously combusting drummer?
[Darkover] No, Jennie, but that didn’t mean he was ready to forget about Arwen, or about their engagement.
[Puma] remember…arwen was with aragorn all the time….she looked after him with her mind
[ChristineGolden] That was me, Darkover. There’s ways to indicate a lack of interest without saying ‘get lost.’
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Susanita] he kept that Arwen thing pretty close to the vest even to the reader
[Demosthenes] There was no certainty that they would even win.
[Matteo] Ok, maybe this reading to much, but I’m thinking he had other things on his mind than another loive interested
[Matteo] love
[Demosthenes] All they had was hope.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, ChristineGolden. But we’re looking at it from a contemporary perspective. Aragorn probably doesn’t have to turn girls down all the time.
[Puma] but i am sure he did b4
[Demosthenes] This chapter provides a tiny bit more hope too. But maybe only a glimmer.
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: He noticed, anyway
[Puma] maybe not often
[Darkover] And this girl was the niece, and emotionally sort of the daughter, of the King of Rohan.
[Darkover] A certain degree of discretion is advised.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he seem the sort of guy that a girl in Barliman’s would chat up?
[Puma] aragorn was being diplomatic with eowyn
[ChristineGolden] In that age with its dangers and uncertainties, Jennie? A strong warrior/protector would be considered a perfect catch.
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, but the culture is totally different.
[Puma] but i am sure in his yrs as thorongil in gondor.aragorn got plenty of attention
[Susanita] we know many girls in this Barliman’s who would chat up Aragorn
[Matteo] Right, but what I mean is he was not thinking at that moment ” I need to figure out how let her down” he was preoccupied with saving first Rohan and then heading east
[Puma] he would more fit in there
[Darkover] And if Gandalf did “out” Aragorn by revealing that he was of royal blood, that would be an appropriate match for the niece of the King of Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] People didn’t often look for their own mates. At least not well born folk
[ChristineGolden] Lol, Susanita.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sus
[Darkover] That is real life, Jennie. In Tolkien’s world, lots of couples married for love.
[Jenniearcheo] His arm actually did tremble when he put it around me for a photo. But it was early days then in terms of fame
[Susanita] he prob’ly also saw it as an unneeded complication
[Matteo] thats much better put susanita
[ChristineGolden] They seemed to in Middle Earth, Jennie. I don’t remember a lot of arranged marriages.
[Darkover] I agree, Susanita, but he seems to have wanted to be kind to Eowyn, too. He did not want to hurt or offend her.
[Jenniearcheo] Do you remember a lot of dating?
[Susanita] right, Darkover
[Darkover] Dating, no. Although there could have been courtship of sorts
[Jenniearcheo] Pretty much you meet your one true love and that’s that. Except in this cawse
[Jenniearcheo] case
[Jenniearcheo] thing
[Puma] and something we are forgetting.aragorn had good forsight as a ruling dunedain….so what did he see?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Faramir wooed Eowyn, Jen, in the House of Healing.
[Puma] he did
[Demosthenes] puma: peril mostly.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, she was distracted and needed to wake up. True
[Darkover] Yes, Chris speaks true, that was really sweet, IMO
[Puma] but that is way ahead ogf this chapter
[Matteo] oh yeah his line there was perfect
[Jenniearcheo] But again, there’s not a lot of “call me maybe” and then getting dumped and crying at the bar with your girlfriends and meeting a new guy, etc.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, but there’s no example in this chapter I could think of, although Theoden did meet and marry a woman of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, not that we see, anyway
[Puma] no
[Puma] that was thengel theoden father.who married morwen
[Susanita] Theoden probably got out of Rohan a bit more than the average villager
[Puma] theodens wife was hild
[Susanita] thank you Puma I was trying to remember that
[Puma] and hild died in childbirth
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, I doubt that Aragorn’s body language has ever invited attention from women, so he probably had no experience in letting them down easy, is my point.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, sorry, Puma, I forgot it was the dad.
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was born in Gondor.
[Susanita] Aragorn essentially a loner much of the time
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Demosthenes] jennie: and maybe his BO too. We’re talking about someone who lives rough most of the time.
[Puma] dont be sorry jennie.easy to get confused.so many names.and you know stuff
[Matteo] I agree though that he was an honorable person who would want to do right by Eowyn.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Jenniearcheo] He met Arwen quite early on
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Puma] at age 20
[Susanita] they were all probably a bit … unwashed
[Darkover] But he cleaned up good, Demosthenes. Remember how Arwen was impressed when he did so, at Lorien?
[Jenniearcheo] Very early for one of his sort
[ChristineGolden] Well, as a female, I’d rather a guy just say “no thanks” rather than stringing me along soas not to hurt my feelings.
[Matteo] you mean his dunedain musk. its like catnip
[Jenniearcheo] Good thing Galadriel put clean clothes on him
[Puma] hehe
[Jenniearcheo] lol Matteo
[ChristineGolden] Another one of her schemes.
[Demosthenes] Okay, do we have any final points on this chapter? Anything we’ve overlooked?
[Jenniearcheo] They finally give Shadowfax to Gandalf
[Puma] did you discuss earlier……that the beginning of this chapter was an intro to rohirric culture?
[Jenniearcheo] formally
[ChristineGolden] The historic bonds between Gondor and Rohan?
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] So would I, Chris, but then, you and I live in a world where a woman can generally be more open about her feelings than Eowyn’s was. Plus, this is a fairy tale, with the accompanying romance and plot developments. So Aragorn could hardly have nipped the whole thing in the bud.
[Darkover] I think we’ve discussed about everything.
[Puma] okie
[Susanita] what’s next week’s topic?
[Vince] Why does Eowyn fall for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure we have one yet.
[Demosthenes] Not sure. Open to suggestions.
[Darkover] We discussed that, Vince
[Vince] Sorry, I’m late :/
[ChristineGolden] Oh, looking for ideas, Demosthenes? lol
[Puma] how about the presence of the valar in lotr?
[Vince] Next week, can we go back to the Hobbit?
[Vince] I just finished reading that
[ChristineGolden] movie or book version?
[Vince] and I’m reading Exploring J.R.R Tolkien’s The Hobbit book
[Demosthenes] Not keen to run two book chats in parallel.
[Susanita] well, we read it here too a while ago
[Jenniearcheo] Corey’s book, Vince?
[Vince] Yeah
[Jenniearcheo] Good read
[Vince] I’m enjoying it
[Darkover] We could just discuss the next chapter of TT. Or something else Tolkien-related
[Vince] I thought this chat was book only?
[Puma] who is the author?
[ChristineGolden] maybe something about the evil creatures of ME?
[Jenniearcheo] Is there a particular aspect of The Hobbit you want to explore? Dragon-sickness, maybe?
[Susanita] it’s usually book alternating with another topic in the “off” week
[Demosthenes] vince: not alweays. though we’ve had a strong run of book stuff lately.
[Jenniearcheo] Corey Olsen, Puma
[ChristineGolden] balrogs, dragons, orcs, Nazgul, etc?
[Darkover] Why don’t we leave it open for the time being?
[Vince] hmm, I’d be interested in discussing the nature of evil in Tolkien’s works but yeah dragon sickness interests me too
[Puma] we can suggest to Demz over the wekk
[Vince] those two kinda go hand in hand
[Puma] week
[Vince] nature of evil and dragon sickness
[Demosthenes] send me some emails demosthenes@theonering.net
[Susanita] dragon sickness is a good one
[Jenniearcheo] Sounds like a plan
[Jenniearcheo] (the emailing)
[Darkover] aka “greed”
[Puma] the nature of evil in jrr….would take a week.not 2 hrs
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Matteo] or longer
[Vince] maybe like how greed for gold and the effect gold has on the characters and how similar it is to the lure of the ring later on
[ChristineGolden] Are you sure you want me to do that, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it could be lightly explored
[Jenniearcheo] And chasing after sparklies?
[Jenniearcheo] (Susanita)
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Darkover] Well, we don’t have to make the decision right this minute. We will think of something, we always do
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Jenniearcheo] ACK
[Susanita] I’m reading a book about China and dragon means smth else
[Demosthenes] I promise to at least read them
[Susanita] kinda fun
[Puma] gold is a powerful morgoth element
[Vince] I wish I’m not always late
[Puma] i am reading a good book about aragorn now
[Vince] Saturday is just my day off and I do other things too.
[Susanita] reset your clock?
[Darkover] so, are we all finished here?
[Matteo] this was fun
[Vince] I made Torn Tuesday though
[Puma] good job everyone.its been a pleasure
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] I went to TORn Tuesday. once.
[Myra] hm still reading that book I see puma
[Jenniearcheo] Husband is cooking me chicken curry
[Jenniearcheo] Mmmmmmmmmm
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone.
Session Close: Sun May 19 09:51:40 2013

 

…The boy nodded his understanding. “Can I ask you something?” The Jedi Master nodded. “What are midi-chlorians?” Wind whipped at Qui-Gon’s long hair, blowing strands of it across his strong face. “Midi-chlorians are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.”…

…”Use the Force, Luke.”…

…Raistlin lifted his thin, frail hand and allowed the spell component he had taken from his pouch to fall slowly from between his fingers onto the deck of the boat. Sand, Tanis realized. “Ast tasarak sinuralan krynawi,” Raistlin murmured, and then moved his right hand slowly in an arc parallel to the shore….

…”The One Power,” Moiraine was saying, “comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time.”…

Bibbidi, bobbidi, boo.

There seem to be almost as many ways of representing magic as there are fantasy writers. Role-players know the whole system with mages, spell components, spellbooks, the language of magic, etc. Jordan fans can tell you the ins and outs of the One Power, complete with a discourse on the varying characteristics of saidar and saidin, and the innumerable levels of strength among Aes Sedai. And Star Wars geeks (a word I use with love, considering that I myself am a dyed-in-the-wool geek!) were stunned when Lucas started explaining the universe-balancing Force with microscopic middlemen, instead of with the innate power of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. What ties them in common is that they each have a system, a framework with rules and laws almost more complicated than those of physics. Mages lose their spells after one casting, and must rest and recommit the words to memory before casting again. Aes Sedai spend years in training, because abuse of the One Power can too easily lead to death… and evidently you’ve got to be well-stocked on single-celled symbionts (is that even a word? My spellchecker sure doesn’t like it) to even make a dent in the Force. Fantasy writers delight in coming up with their own, hopefully brand-new systems, to give their books that added twist, that spark that no other sword-swinging Elf-hopping kender-singing dragon-flying books have. But what about Tolkien? Where is the system? What are the rules which govern the making of Rings of Power, which delineate the powers and limits of Istari, of Maiar, of Valar? He never talks about a framework or physical laws; we only see the results of the power’s use. Where does the power come from?

“It’s wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there’s any magic about, it’s right down deep, where I can’t lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.’

‘You can see and feel it everywhere,’ said Frodo.

‘Well,’ said Sam, ‘you can’t see nobody working it…I would dearly love to see some Elf-magic, Mr. Frodo!”

These passages between Sam and Frodo in Lórien are just about the only overt use of the word ‘magic’ in all of Lord of the Rings. Sam’s feeling, as it usually is for most of us, is that if ‘you can’t see nobody working it,’ then it must not be the real stuff. But I think Tolkien had another image in mind. He seems to have taken his love of nature and the natural order of things to such an extent that he would rather not impose an unnatural system of rules governing a supernatural power–what we term magic. Instead, it seems clear that Tolkien regarded extraordinary power as part of the natural birthright of individual beings, and as such, therefore, the exercise of that power was simply part of the settled order of events. Not magic, but just the use by each individual of the power vested in him or her–to the best and highest of his or her own abilities, be they the greatest of the great or the smallest of the small. And in fact, he regarded the traditional definitions of the word “magic” as tantamount to the evil Machine that tears up the normal fabric of nature.

Beorn by Lelia

Think about it. We at Green Books are constantly getting questions from readers so accustomed to other systems that they almost demand a system in Tolkien. “What were the exact powers of the One Ring?” “Does the magic in Lothlórien come from the Elves or vice-versa?” “What can Elrond do with his Elven-ring?” “How does Gandalf do magic?” We do the best we can to elucidate, but the plain truth of the matter is, Tolkien just doesn’t make rules. He expects us to accept at face value that Celebrimbor and his cohorts “forged” the Three Rings, that Fëanor “wrought” the Silmarils and contained within them the light of the stars of Varda, that Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel “use” their rings in some vague way for the protection and enhancement of their lands (in the cases of Elrond and Galadriel) and for the furtherance of their tasks (in the case of Gandalf). Even “What are the powers of Beorn? Why is he the only being in Middle-earth who can shape-change?” Well… because he just was. That was his individual power. Tolkien didn’t set out to create magicians who could manipulate a supernatural force. He created individuals who knew how to use their naturalpowers–and he delineated the difference between those who use their power for the sake of creation and those who use it merely for the sake of control.

Tolkien believed that human beings are endowed with creativity in order to share in God’s power of creation. He called this “sub-creation” and felt that he was making the most of his abilities in this line through his writing. It follows that the characters in his books would do the same. So everyone is endowed with his or her own abilities, and since he’s not limited to real human beings, but is free to imagine beings with greater powers of creation, the result is powers that to us are supernatural, but to him are merely the result of that being’s art. I am speaking, of course, of the wise and wonderful Elves. The forging of the Elven-rings is the best example, but their spellbound swords and beautiful works of cooperation with Dwarves also come to mind. A reader (thanks, Andróg!) sent me the exact quotation that details the nature of the Elves’ power, and, indeed, the difference between this power and “magic.” Letter 131 states: “Their ‘magic’ is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations; more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.” There you have it. Art for Art’s sake, and my favorite part–”product and vision in unflawed correspondence.” In other words, if they could think it (vision), then they could do it (product). No tiresome mechanics, no industrialized machines–just pure, unadulterated Art: sub-creation. Ultimately, what we would call magic is not, in Middle-earth, any such thing. It is simply the natural powers of created beings proceeding from them in yet another spiral of creation. And we know this power is inherent because Tolkien stated as much. The same Letter tells us: “By [the use of the word ‘magic’] I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents–or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of domination; bulldozing the real world, or coercing other will.”

So Tolkien divides power into two headings: The natural kind, proceeding from the desire of the being to sub-create, and ‘magic:’ a deliberate use of devices or machines with a corrupted motive. And in the use of the former, he stands alone in his system of creation. No other fantasy writer that I know has gone so far as he has with the Elves, given beings power that emanates as naturally as a flowing spring. True, there are other authors whose magic-users have innate talent, abilities, or senses not available to “ordinary” folks–but these special abilities are usually in existence in order to take advantage of an outside power: the Force, the One Power, or the generic, vague mysticism of “magic.” Tolkien’s Elves have no need of even the appearance of such supernatural forces, because the force of sub-creation is in them already, without any augmentation.

A pet musing of mine is to wonder how this “sub-creation” applies to beings besides Elves, Valar, and Maiar. Don’t bombard me with letters about Gandalf’s magic words, either, because he was a Maiar, and a badass, to boot, and could do whatever he wanted, with words or without ‘em, in any language he pleased. I’m talking about mortals, now. Aragorn son of Arathorn. Faramir of Ithilien. Samwise Gamgee. I believe very deeply that this power of sub-creation extended very thoroughly to mortals of ‘uncorrupted motive,’ even if the results weren’t always what we would call ‘magical.’

“Now he is a marvel, the Lord Elfstone: not too soft in his speech, mind you, but he has a golden heart, as the saying is; and he has the healing hands. ‘The hands of the king are the hands of a healer,’ I said; and that was how it was all discovered. And Mithrandir, he said to me: ‘Ioreth, men will long remember your words,’ and…”

So spake Ioreth, wise woman of Gondor, and we know it to be true. Aragorn showed his healing powers many times, but never to greater effect than when he healed Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry of the Black Breath during the last days of the war.

“At last, less than a mile from the City, a more ordered mass of men came into view, marching not running, still holding together.

The watchers held their breath. ‘Faramir must be there,’ they said. ‘He can govern man and beast. He will make it yet.’”

Our darling Faramir, a man of lore, yet scarcely less doughty in arms than his brother, and with a stern yet merciful attitude towards those under his command and in his power, had a gift for governance.

“Inside [the box] was filled with a grey dust, soft and fine, in the middle of which was a seed, like a small nut with a silver shale.

‘What can I do with this?’ said Sam.

‘Throw it into the air on a breezy day and let it do its work!’ said Pippin.

‘On what?’ said Sam.

‘Choose one spot as a nursery, and see what happens to the plants there,’ said Merry.

‘But I’m sure the Lady would not like me to keep it all for my own garden, now so many folks have suffered,’ said Sam.

‘Use all the wits and knowledge you have of your own, Sam,’ said Frodo, ‘and then use the gift to help your work and better it.’”

That last line sums up my entire feelings on the subject of mortals and sub-creation. Aragorn used athelas to help him in his healing, but undoubtedly part of the virtue of it sprang from his own hands. Faramir was versed in the lore and history of men, but he used his knowledge wisely and to good effect, being a good captain of his men and, in time, a steward and prince of his people. And our sweet Sam had a positive gift for growing things, no matter how much he was helped at that juncture by the gift of the Lady Galadriel.

Here’s the stickler: Just because the results aren’t conventionally ‘magical,’ doesn’t mean that a talent isn’t a gift of sub-creation. Any being, immortal or no, Elven or Human or Holbytla, who uses his or her inclinations and abilities to the fullest, and never forgetting that uncorrupted motive, is exercising his “inherent inner powers or talents”–a very personal form of magic that cannot be discounted. So many times in this dreary world we fall short of what we would like to accomplish with our abilities, through sloth or other impediments. Tolkien showed us not only otherworldly Elves whose gifts run to what we would consider outside the settled order of nature, but also very mortal characters who simply used their ordinary powers to the best and fullest extent. And the result, when compared with the many shortcomings and failings of human beings in this world, is very magical indeed.

- Anwyn

Session Start: Sun May 12 07:15:09 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin anyhow?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read about 20 pages…how many appendixes ae in total..cause my book has 6
[Demosthenes] frosaki_the_ringbearer: I think the last is E. But today we’re talking about Appendirx A mostly.
[sunshower] hi Galaril
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i have all the lotr in one book…it’s true…1150 pages..ahhaha
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ok just asking
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Pete-Slagheaps] Appendix B has most of the good stuff, I think
[ChristineGolden] The Numenorean section always reminds me of the “begats” in the Bible.
[Alatariel] Have we started?
[Puma] read ut for numenor
[Demosthenes] Alatariel: kinda yes. We’re defintiely ready to go.
[Pete-Slagheaps] me too, Christine. I don’t think that I’ve read appemdix A moe than twic, sonve 1969
[Demosthenes] Let’s start at the beginning:
[Demosthenes] ‘Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of D?ael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage D?ael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the D?in were accustomed to marry.
[Demosthenes] 1) It’s a rough world for the Dunedain of Arnor obviously.
[Puma] one thing left out….that is in peoples….they lived in a hidden fastness
[Demosthenes] Oh?
[Puma] yes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] my HoF too…so be kind to me finally people to talk to..
[Puma] so they did have armed towns
[Jenniearcheo] Gilraen was such a Debbie Downer.
[Alatariel] Whose Aranarth?
[Puma] well…..then come an instance of ivorwens forsight
[Adann412] my first hof as well but I’ve been in barlimans chat before
[Puma] the 1st chieftain
[Puma] ivorwens forsight was of great import
[Eowyn] My first HoF too
[Nik_Z] same here
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien had a lot of ‘kissing cousins’ marry in both LotR and TS.
[Puma] remember both she and dirhael were of the lone of isildur…just not the senior branch
[Puma] line
[sunshower] wait—how old was Gilraen?
[Puma] 22
[Puma] young for a dunedain woman to marry
[sunshower] hmmm
[Jenniearcheo] Since they normally lived a while
[Demosthenes] I guess that would be young for Dunedain.
[Jenniearcheo] Kinda like the dwarves who didn’t seem to marry and have kids (per family trees) until about 100
[Demosthenes] yeah jennie. like that.
[Puma] dunedain were a bit soooner than dwarves
[ChristineGolden] And Arathorn was a man, full-grown, so probably what we’d call middle-aged.
[Puma] not middle age
[Puma] he was in mid 50′s
[Evenstar25] how long was the average lifespan of the dunedan?
[Demosthenes] 40s or 50s?
[Jenniearcheo] and he was only 60 when he (Arathorn) died
[sunshower] oh, that’s a bit of an age difference then
[Puma] and at that time normal lifespan for chieftains was a bout 160
[Jenniearcheo] When Aragorn was 2
[Evenstar25] okay
[Jenniearcheo] hello
[Pete-Slagheaps] Hi, wanderer
[Demosthenes] Evenstar25: Aragorn lived to 215. That seems to be about the limit of Dunedain life *in Middle-earth*.
[Evenstar25] Okay, I knew he lived a long time I just couldn’t remember
[Demosthenes] So Aragorn was /really/ young when he met Arwen.
[Nik_Z] and also, Aragorn was said to be particularly long-lived for Dunedain at that time
[Demosthenes] still in the short shorts.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] All the Americans are now picturing Daisy Duke
[Pete-Slagheaps] haha, Jennie
[Adann412] wish I could stay but moms makin me stuff envelopes for my sisters wedding, bye everyone
[Demosthenes] Does that explain his … forwardness perhaps?
[Demosthenes] Though, Elrond had just given him a heap of stuff. Ring of Barahir and all that.
[sunshower] young and dumb?
[Phil] evening everyone
[Demosthenes] young and restless?
[Nik_Z] but at the same time, when he told her his lineage he became instantly aware that she was “better” than him
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it was more destiny, like lightning striking.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all excited about the future when he went for his stroll
[Nik_Z] so his pursuit of her was still more fate-driven
[Puma] and his father gave him the name Aragorn, a name used in in the house of the chieftains. But Ivorwen at his naming stood by and said.”Kingly Valor”that he shall have but i see on his breast a green stone and from that his true name shall come and his chief renown: for he shall be a healer and a renewer….and they did not know what she meant, for there was no green stone to be seen by other eyes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: To some extent I certainly see Tolkien replaying the Beren and Luthien story. But deliberately. There is an element of “this is not chance”.
[Puma] that passage is in peoples….but it is in fact true
[Jenniearcheo] and it’s directly referred to
[Jenniearcheo] She’s even wearing the same (or a very similar) dress
[ChristineGolden] Fate plays a big role in Tolkien, and I think the Arwen/Aragorn romance was ‘destiny.’
[Nik_Z] I’d agree
[Puma] when galadriel said to him take now the name forseen at your birth
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i agree
[Demosthenes] ?For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of L?n which tells of the meeting of L?n and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there L?n walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
[ChristineGolden] Especially since Galadriel who had foresight, cleaned him up before he met Arwen in the woods.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, in Lorien
[sunshower] aye, there’s that bound brow concept
[Jenniearcheo] yep
[Demosthenes] Oh you think that was Galadriel spinning webs? I had not thought of that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, anyone could see he was scruffy and travel worn
[Nik_Z] she probably foresaw their destiny
[Evenstar25] well, this has been fun guys, but I must go now, until another time!
[Puma] galadriel knew
[Nik_Z] and perhaps wanted to help a bit, as it were
[Jenniearcheo] And Tolkien specifies that it’s Galadriel who cleaned him up
[Phil] later Evenstar25
[Jenniearcheo] bye Evenstar25
[Demosthenes] After 30 years in the wilderness he probably looked a bit weatherbeaten.
[bld_th] When Arwen introduces to Aragorn she tells “Yet her name -Luthine- is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers” so what did she know about her destiny?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I definitely believe Galadriel encouraged the romance, and not because of personal reasons.
[Puma] well……he had just returned from confines of mordor
[Phil] a bit weatherbeaten i guess that is an understatement Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Strider does mention to Boromir something about “little do i resemble isildur and anarion etc etc”
[Jenniearcheo] good question, bld_th
[Demosthenes] I think he was being sarcastic.
[Demosthenes] bld_th: that is a good question.
[Puma] but aragorn did resemble elendil and elendur
[Nik_Z] yes
[Demosthenes] Or is she just referring to her Peredhil nature?
[Nik_Z] Aragorn is said to gretly resemble Elendil
[Demosthenes] I can see both possibilities.
[Nik_Z] I think she foresaw her foture
[ChristineGolden] But when he appears in his “raiment” before Arwen, he does appear kingly.
[Nik_Z] partially, anyway
[Eowyn] what motivation do you think galadriel had in “match making” then?
[Demosthenes] Does Arwen have foresight?
[Puma] aragorn appears as an elf would
[Phil] i think she does Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel had foresight and was always weaving schemes. She undoubtedly knew the prophecies, too.
[Puma] arwen does have forsight….its demonstrated
[Phil] i think most elves have foresight
[Nik_Z] and some men
[ChristineGolden] Yes, it’s mentioned in the appendix, I believe, Demosthenes.
[Puma] galadriel knew of ivorwens prophesy
[Puma] and galadriel had the mirror
[Demosthenes] I think the great standard she creates for Aragorn is driven by some sort of foresight.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] galadriel pretty much knew everything i think
[Puma] yes
[Puma] and also arwen had forsight as to what frodos fate would be
[Jenniearcheo] that he’d need it?
[bld_th] interesting
[Demosthenes] Yes jennie. It seems to be very imnportant in winning over the Dead.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think any of the elves clearly saw Frodo’s fate, Puma.
[Demosthenes] I don’t think it’s just adornment.
[Jenniearcheo] And announcing the Return . . .
[Puma] arwen did after the war
[ChristineGolden] Glimpses, perhaps, and premonitions, but not like watching a video play out.
[Darkover] Greetings, all, so sorry I’m late!
[Nik_Z] has anyone else ever been a bit puzzled by what Aragorn says before his death (I am the last of the Numenoreans)? personally, I think he says this to emphasise the beginning of a new era
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did have a son. And apparently some daughters
[Puma] Aragorn was the last numenorean.a new line had begun
[Darkover] Nik_Z, I think Aragorn also meant he was the last who could choose his own time of death, too
[Jenniearcheo] But they . . . aren’t the same?
[Nik_Z] aye
[ChristineGolden] The great standard was a major thing in the middle ages and in english mythology.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, I wondered where you were.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or like the Eagle aquila of the Roman legions. It signified their honour. and their lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, got here ASAP
[Jenniearcheo] The Eagle.
[ChristineGolden] No, Aragorn was the last of the Numenoreans because his son was part-elven like his mother.
[Puma] Aragorn had more names than any1 else in lotr
[Nik_Z] the Eagles, and their counterparts in the Napoleonic wars
[Puma] no.eldarion was not part elven
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did seem to have a number of them.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gandalf had quite a few names, as well
[Darkover] Well, technically, Chris, Aragorn was part-Elf too. And part Maia, through Luthien
[ChristineGolden] I’m not so sure about that, Demosthenes, Tolkien never alluded much to the Greeks or Romans.
[Puma] yes he did christine
[Darkover] Elvish blood, Eldarion had, Puma, not that he was of Elvish race
[Nik_Z] but banners do play their but in LotR
[Nik_Z] bit*
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ellhnas?uparxei k allos ellhnas edw?
[Jenniearcheo] The idea of a Standard is an old one, whatever the source.
[ChristineGolden] Not very often, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Ironically, the orcs make as much use of heraldry as men
[Puma] the entrance of the people into minas tirith.was always referred to by him as homeric
[Demosthenes] Sign and signifiers.
[Darkover] Well, standards had their purpose in battle, Jennie, regardless of what side or species an army was
[Puma] well….there are many many banners in jrr
[Jenniearcheo] Even Martin’s use of “bannermen” is a reflection of the idea.
[ChristineGolden] The standard was the sign of the king and his authority. When Aragorn unfurled it, he was claiming his crown.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Darkover] Right, Chris. More like “The King has returned” than “Lord Aragorn”
[Demosthenes] And that plays into his rodering the banner furled at Minas Tirith after the pelennor.
[ChristineGolden] When he rode with it to the gates of Mordor, he was announcing, “The King has returned.”
[Demosthenes] ordering*
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] tolkien had takenpart of greek and romian myhology ..moria for exaple is a village in island of lesvos…the collums of kazard dum are takem by dsign form there
[Puma] the columns were shaped as trees
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] no kazard dm sorry the great hall we see in the movie
[Jenniearcheo] I can see a parallel between the dwarves and classical architecture.
[Nik_Z] I always felt that the Silmarillion was a quite roman/greek feeling to it
[Puma] movie counts not
[Nik_Z] the great clashes of gods and men
[Demosthenes] So, to what extent does Aragorn’s …. drive … derive from all the things he’s forced to do in order “win” Arwen (or win over Elrond)?
[Puma] Elrond was on aragorns side
[Darkover] most of it, always seemed ot me, Demosthenes
[Puma] elrond was no thingol
[ChristineGolden] Well, according to Tolkien, most of his inspiration came from the middle ages and nordic myth.
[sunshower] I say less than most
[bld_th] the movie has a lot of infuence from Rome, specially Gondorian design
[Darkover] He wasn’t marrying the woman of his dreams unless he became king–and of the reunited Kingdom, no less
[Demosthenes] Was he? He seems a bit conflicted … though way less of an idiot than thingol.
[Puma] Arwen was above aragorn
[Nik_Z] Christine – true, but the great armies are more of a antiquity thing
[Darkover] Well, if we’re making Greek allusions, Thingol had hubris
[Nik_Z] since the middle ages saw a decline
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Aragorn had a destiny to fulfill and that his love of Arwen “was his light when all other lights had failed.”
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and in a way that “saves” the quest of the Ring too.
[Puma] little in middle earth resembles the middle ages
[Darkover] in terms of lineage, maybe, Puma, but it seems to me that Aragorn earned his position–eventually–whereas everything Arwen had was an accident of birth
[Demosthenes] Would Aragorn have been in Bree otherwise?
[Pete-Slagheaps] and Melian was above Thingol–higher than Arwen was above Aragorn
[Puma] there was no feudalism
[Demosthenes] It’s a weird thought.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Nik. You forget the War of the Roses, for example.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, Turgon was like, “My daughter? Suuure!”
[Demosthenes] turgon is an odd exception
[Puma] no quite jennie.turon knew of ulmos prophesy
[Jenniearcheo] But blew it off
[Demosthenes] And still ignored it. well done turgon.
[Puma] not completely
[ChristineGolden] There are many symbols, etc., to the Middle Ages, Puma.
[Darkover] Maybe Aragorn wouldn’t otherwise have been in Bree, Demosthenes, but one of the things I love about LotR is Tolkien’s insistence that everything happens for a purpose.
[Darkover] It is how he explained coincidence.
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris
[Puma] for aragorn to expect people to be rules by him….did he not have 1st to learn to be ruled
[Puma] Elrond was a father to aragorn
[Puma] elladan and elrohir bothers
[Nik_Z] Christine – the War of the Roses was more of an exception, the middle ages mostly saw small-scale warfare
[Demosthenes] Darkover: There’s all these odd little threads. Though … you can find signs of stuff everywhere when you start applying hindsight.
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes
[Nik_Z] armies of several thousand men, 10k at the most
[ChristineGolden] I’d think he would have learned that lesson quite well from Elrond, Puma. I don’t see Elrond taking much sass from a young boy.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] Or indeed anyone else, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sass
[bld_th] Yes, there´s a nice quote about destiny, can{t remember if it is told by gandalf or Tom bombadil
[Puma] but that is why aragorn honored elronds wish
[Darkover] Well, let’s face it, Puma, Aragorn didn’t have much choice in honoring Elrond’s wishes when it came to marrying Arwen. It was more like, this is the deal, take it or leave it.
[ChristineGolden] Those were large armies for the time, Nik. After all, Europe was still recovering from the Black Death.
[Goldberry] If Arwen had chosen to leave ME would Frodo have had to stay?
[bld_th] Oh yes: “Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine” its Tom Bombadil
[Puma] no.both arwen and aragorn did have a choice
[ChristineGolden] Do you think Arwen would have married Aragorn if Elrond had forbidden it?
[bld_th] I think yes Goldberry
[Puma] no.arwen did not give frodo her seat
[Darkover] No, I doubt that very much, Goldberry. Arwen offered Frodo her seat on the ships, so to speak, because she *knew* there would be at least one vacancy, but I don’t think one thing had anything to do with the other.
[Jenniearcheo] Would the war have been won if she’d refused him and gone West?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] she gave her place didn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a hobson’s choice?
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes.
[Nik_Z] my point exactly, antiquity saw warfare at a grander scale (take the Roman empire for example, or perhaps the battle of Platea), whereas the middle ages saw warfare as a smaller occurence, composed more of raids than battles
[Puma] no she did not give her place
[Demosthenes] You may take any horse in the barn, as long as it’s the one in the first stall.
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would still have had the West win the war, but then Gondor wouldn’t have risen to its full glory afterwards without Arwen.
[Darkover] Jennie, I think it would have depended on how early Arwen refused him, if indeed she had. Certainly it would have altered circumstances, but not if she changed her mind at the time of the war
[Darkover] If she’d done the latter, Gondor would have had a different Queen, I suspect, but that is all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Again this is somewhat reflective of Tolkien’s own courtship of Edith Bratt.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] Something we observed with Beren and Luthien.
[Nik_Z] Demosthenes: yes, quite so
[Darkover] Whereas if Arwen had refused early on to ever be engaged to Aragorn, things would have changed dramatically, and Aragorn and his circumstances would have been very different
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes, although the father-figure in Tolkien’s case who put forth the restrictions was his own, the priest who raised him.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s worth pondering … to what extent is this a “re-run” of Beren and Luthien?
[Puma] in a large part it is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t about the rest of you, but I didn’t really know about Arwen when I first read LotR. So, yes, I think events would have played out the same.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly there are parallels. But it’s referred to quite directly
[Demosthenes] And how that figues with Arwen being the “Evenstar”
[sunshower] a “reboot” with a better outcome?
[Jenniearcheo] In simile rather than just metaphor
[Puma] even reflected by araogrn singing some of beren and luthien to the hobbits
[Darkover] There are some similarities–Arwen’s choice is similar to Luthien’s–but Arwen had a much more understanding father
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was an internal motivation for Aragorn, not a driver of events.
[Darkover] who also raised Aragorn, unlike Thingol and Beren’s relationship
[Demosthenes] sunshower: oooh, do they get a happy ending?
[sunshower] I say they did
[Nik_Z] and Elrond was less haughty than Thingol
[ChristineGolden] Very little to me, Demosthenes. Arwen really plays a very small role in the war.
[Darkover] Oooh, very well put, Chris!
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read somewhere that at first tolkien thought aragorn marring ewoyn but he changed it later..why u thing?
[Puma] the evenstar refers to arwen being the last of the houses of finwe and elwe born in middle earth
[Darkover] And of course, there was the precedent of Luthien and Beren, by the time Arwen and Aragorn came along.
[ChristineGolden] Whereas Luthien was totally involved and committed to helping Beren achieve his quest.
[sunshower] isn’t there something in the Tale about A&A meeting again?
[sunshower] after they pass from M-e?
[Jenniearcheo] Which actually makes it even more dramatic. Elrond knew what would happen to Arwen because of Luthien
[Nik_Z] Tolkien married Aragorn to Arwen to signal the renewal of Gondor and Arnor
[Puma] only in 1 slight way
[Darkover] Frosaki, I heard the same, but from what I heard, when Tolkien created the character of Eowyn, he hadn’t yet created the character of Faramir, and for several different reasons, he changed things.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, they were both beautiful elven maids who looked very much alike. One was the morning star; the other, its evenstar. But as to their actual roles in the fight against evil, there is no comparison.
[Darkover] Right, Sunshower, Aragorn promises that he will see Arwen in the next world, because Arwen has chosen the “gift of Men,” which means she will be with Aragorn and his people, not with the Elves.
[Puma] arwen was aragorns inspiration.also she watched over him in thought
[Darkover] Right again, Chris. Luthien was much more proactive in fighting evil.
[ChristineGolden] Watching is a lot different than defying the gates of Angband, Puma.
[Puma] Aragorn used the word “behold!” which in jrr something that is true
[Nik_Z] Arwen was more to Aragorn what Edith was to JRR
[sunshower] pretty long life, raised the kids….see you on the other side! not a bad outcome, imo
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t Elwing have that same choice? And the same wistfulness?
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was a crucial part of that tale; Arwen was a note in the appendices.
[Demosthenes] Is Arwen a psychological bolster for Aragorn? I’m thinking of her “hope comes or hope fades…” line particularly.
[Darkover] Puma, what you say is true, but being “inspiration” is hardly the same as completing a quest against the dark lord
[Nik_Z] something to come home to, something worth fighting for
[Puma] i was not comparing arwen to luthien
[ChristineGolden] the little woman sitting home doing embroidery by the fire, Nik?
[Darkover] I’d say definitely, Demosthenes. I’m sure it was the thought of earning Arwen at first, and then the thought of her waiting for him, that helped Aragorn go on at times.
[Demosthenes] this too:
[Demosthenes] ‘And Arwen said: “Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it.”
[Nik_Z] in a sense, yes
[Nik_Z] but mostly a beacon of hope in dark times
[Darkover] Maybe that was an example of the foresight of her family line, Demosthenes
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #thehalloffire
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, that’s how she always struck me, too. Arwen is really the least heroic of the elven maids we’ve discussed.
[Nik_Z] definitely
[Puma] we know little of arwens story
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps because she was a bit of an afterthought?
[Puma] though you are correct
[Nik_Z] she watches things happen for her, but she herself does not make them happen
[ChristineGolden] While Middle Earth is on the edge of doom, she is safely in Rivendell, embroidering a banner for Aragorn.
[Darkover] Sunshower, Arwen’s deal seems pretty good to me, too, but that is because you and I are going to get old–if we live long enough–and die anyway. Arwen had to *choose* to give up youth, eternal beauty, and immortality for death and an uncertain future.
[Goldberry] Elrond probably didn’t let her do anything dangerous
[Darkover] Thingol didn’t want to “let” Luthien do things, either, Goldberry, but she did
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: Dunno about that. We see that travelling to and from Lorien is in itself dangerous.
[Goldberry] true
[ChristineGolden] But she never had to ACT, Darkover, against evil – be it Morgoth or Sauron – whereas Luthien, Idril, and Elwing put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] Not that I am critical of Arwen. She wasn’t a warrior, not practical to expect her to be.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh yeah. Poor Mrs. Elrond
[ChristineGolden] I’m sure she was heavily guarded, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there are some similarities to Melian, i think.
[bld_th] But Arwen exeplify the difficult of the choice between mortality and unmortality, may be the others had the same difficult, buy their stories are told from a more epic way
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I would agree with that, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I agree, Chris. She was much more passive than earlier elf-women. But my point to Sunshower was that, when examined in context, Arwen’s choice becomes more difficult.
[ChristineGolden] All of the characters faced difficult choices, though, Darkover; Frodo, the most difficult of all. I don’t see what makes hers so special, at least more so than Luthien’s.
[bld_th] Im agree Draover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that Arwen makes the greater sacrifice? while Aragorn gains a world?
[Darkover] And of course, Arwen gave up her Elvish family, too
[Nik_Z] exactly, Darkover: when Luthien makes her choice, it is in a time of war and dwindling hope, so she wants to enjoy, whereas Arwen finally chooses after the victory, therefore putting more on the line
* mib_o90ahc (Mibbit@torn-E2ED043A.cf-res.cfu.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[sunshower] the bitter parting of Arwen and Elrond
[Jenniearcheo] Arwen has the loss of Luthien to consider. the effect it had on everyone.
[Darkover] That is a valid argument, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] The easier choice for Luthien would have been to sail off for Valinor, not storm the gates of Angband.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: maybe that is her battle? the one with self.
[Nik_Z] but then again, it was a ray of hope
[sunshower] mortal love–relatively short-term OR immortalilty?
[Jenniearcheo] An immortality filled with regret?
[Darkover] Chris, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Arwen. She was like Luthien only when it came to beauty and the choice she had to make, yes. And as you correctly observe, lots of people had to make potentially-lousy choices. But suffering isn’t a contest, and Arwen’s choice was nevertheless a difficult one. That is all I mean.
[Demosthenes] Would Valinor not … temper/heal … any regret?
[sunshower] I think I am more OK with the whole thing mostly because of the promise of their meeting again in the “afterlife”
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[sunshower] going along that line of thinking–their love is immortal
[sunshower] ymmv
[Darkover] Hmm, I hadn’t considered that, Demosthenes. Maybe, as Elrond suggested in the PJ movies, Arwen would have been happy with just a memory of her love, had she gone to Valinor. Maybe not, too.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] wel all i can say is things are more complicated once u read the books…so much to thig
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] +think
[Darkover] Maybe it is one of those things a person wouldnt’ know until after they made the choice.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that is why Frodo goes to Tol Eressea.
[Demosthenes] On the other hand, Valinor doesn’t help Miriel much.
[Demosthenes] she has to go to Mandos.
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[Darkover] True. The broad implication was that it would help heal, or at least soothe, his body and spirit.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] whatever choice u made u can always have second thoughts
[Darkover] lol, Chris. But to be fair, Arwen didn’t do that, at least.
[Demosthenes] Do you think that after Aragorn dies that Arwen suddenly … i guess … fades?
[Jenniearcheo] She seems to.
[Darkover] frosaki, that’s one reason why Tolkien fans usually read LotR more than once. There is indeed a lot to be gleaned.
[Demosthenes] ‘But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
[Jenniearcheo] Goes a little Gilraen-y
[ChristineGolden] I know, I was just trying to come up with an example, Darkover, and that one popped into my head. Not quite what I meant, but you get the idea.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the son and daughters aren’t enough to bring her joy
[bld_th] i think she dies too, thats the menaning for me of being forgotten
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Arwen might have faded Elf-fashion, and then died, but I got the impression she was doing the Elf equivalent of what Aragorn did
[ChristineGolden] Yes, like that quote about “I have hope to the Dunedain. I kept none for myself,” Jen.
[Puma] arwen died
[Darkover] said goodbye to all the people and things she’d known and loved, and then lay down to die.
[Puma] she chose to die
[Jenniearcheo] And apparently a bare skeleton?
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe that’s the way it was ‘supposed to happen.’ Luthien didn’t live long after Beren, either.
[Jenniearcheo] Without even the little flowers
[Jenniearcheo] And the mallorn leaves actually falling
[Puma] and where arwen chose to die is symbolic
[Demosthenes] In a way Aragorn truly seems to have been Arwen’s hope.
[Darkover] Jennie, her no longer wishing to stay on after Aragorn died might in part have been because she’d been born an Elf, and lived as one for so long
[Jenniearcheo] As an archeologist, I know that an exposed corpse is not the best way to keep a skeleton articulated, is all.
[Puma] arwen could have chosen to die when aragorn did
[Lendaris] Hi there
[ChristineGolden] Maybe when the man died, his elven wife died soon after. Doom of Mandos, perhaps?
[Darkover] I mean, don’t Elves in Tolkien’s world become spiritually attached to their spouses? It isn’t like a mortal widow just living on, and maybe marrying someone else.
[Demosthenes] We don’t know in what order Luthien and Beren died. But they must have been spaced closely i think?
[Darkover] I think it was more an elvish characteristic, Chris, as I indicated in my recent remarks to Jennie
[Demosthenes] As the Nauglamir was brought pretty much directly to Dior with the news.
[Darkover] Very closely spaced, I suspect, Demosthenes
[Puma] when arwen and luthien married they were no longer eldar
[Darkover] I don’t think that was something that changed completely just overnight, Puma
[Puma] but it was
[Demosthenes] Aragron seems to think she could still take a boat
[Puma] in luthiens case by decree of mandos
[Darkover] Arwen and Aragorn, Lendaris
[Demosthenes] ‘ “I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
[Darkover] Right. But then, she would also never see him again.
[Demosthenes] or is he telling fibs?
[Puma] arwen no longer had a right to go
[Darkover] And doesn’t she tell him that choice was made long ago, there’s no going back now?
[Demosthenes] Yet Aragorn thinks she could?
[Demosthenes] He’s wrong then?
[sunshower] “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Besides, as I think Arwen mentions, aren’t the last of the ships gone?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always wondered about that passage since the last ship had already sailed.
[sunshower] that’s the line that does it for me, I think
[Demosthenes] Maybe she could build a raft out of mallorns
[Puma] no.the last ships are not gone
[Darkover] I think he might have been mistaken, Demosthenes. I can’t imagine him lying to Arwen about something like that.
[sunshower]
[Jenniearcheo] Or Entwives
[Demosthenes] or entwives
[Puma] cirdan would be on the very last ship
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Demosthenes] It’s an odd one.
[Darkover] Well, he might have been on the last one, Puma, and it might have already sailed. As I recall, Arwen tells a dying Aragorn that there no longer is any ship that would bear her hence.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Legolas go?
[Demetria] Isn’t the last ship the one with Legolas & Gimli?
[ChristineGolden] Weren’t the appendices an add-on? So, it’s possible Tolkien wasn’t his usual OCD self about details?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] yes i thnk
[FloraWright] no he built one
[Puma] yes Darkover.because she had no right to sail…..not because the last ship had sailed
[Darkover] Maybe Legolas, Gimli, and Cirdan were all on the same one. I really don’t think this is as complicated as some of you are trying to make out.
[Puma] no.cirdan was not on ship with legolas and gimli
[Demetria] Cirdan was on the one with Gandolf and the ring bearers
[Darkover] Maybe that is what she meant, Puma. And maybe she meant that as far as she knew, there were no more ships. It could be interpreted either way.
[Demosthenes] But I say to you, King of the N?reans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”
[Demosthenes] That seems a long time to learn the lesson of mortality.
[Puma] no it could not be interprested either way
[ChristineGolden] “There is now no ship that will bear me hence (to Valinor).
[FloraWright] you have a piont
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, rationally, all human beings know we’re going to die, but how many of us actually understand and accept it, until it happens?
[ChristineGolden] That’s pretty clear.
[Darkover] And Arwen had been an immortal Elf for much of her life.
[sunshower] Elfkind were removed from that thought
[Puma] Arwen had made the choice of the half elven….the same as elros did
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] how old was she??Arwen
[sunshower] old
[Puma] and neither could go west
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “i’m going to live forever. so far so good”?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] older than aragorn?
[Puma] arwen was born 241 3rd age
[FloraWright] but she die’s in the end and she was like 2050
[Demosthenes] I guess we all do that.
[Jenniearcheo] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien the year Elessar died, and he and Gimli went down Anduin and over the sea
[Darkover] Something like that, Demosthenes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ooh nice…so aragorn liked older women..
[FloraWright] haha yea
[FloraWright] he was 87
[bld_th] like Edith to Tolkien
[Puma] arwen was 2901 yrs old when aragorn died
[bld_th] Edith was older
[Puma] and she died 1 yr later
[FloraWright] yea he live 100 years then gimli and legolas left and arwen died
[Darkover] I wonder if Arwen was the last Elf in M-E when she died.
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] Well, what a cheery turn we’ve taken
[Demosthenes] I think there would have been some Silvan elves still
[Puma] and arwen had never been an elf.ever
[Demosthenes] Some of the Moriquendi
[Demosthenes] Thranduil’s folk?
[Darkover] LoL, Jennie, but let’s face it, death is a big part of the Arwen-Aragorn tale
[Jenniearcheo] Dunno. Tale of Years ends with that entry
[Demosthenes] They didn’t seem much interested in boats.
[sunshower] Thranduil himself?
[Jenniearcheo] True
[ChristineGolden] No, Tolkien said that elves still lived in Middle Earth, but diminished.
[Puma] death is a big part of all jrr’s writtings
[ChristineGolden] Death and redemption
[Darkover] Probably a few elves here and there, then, some who just didn’t want to leave M-E for any reason.
[Puma] but its important to know arwen,,,,was not an elf
[FloraWright] she was
[Demosthenes] They wanted to have their own small realms? Away from Valinor?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] too attached maybe to leave
[Puma] no she was not
[sunshower] I wonder if JRRT considered any of his contemporaries to be the faded elves?
[Elrenia] Arwen wasn’t an elf?!
[Darkover] Arwen wasn’t a full-blooded Elf, Puma, but I would have called her an Elf.
[Demosthenes] If they were Moriquendi they might not know the way.
[Elrenia] :s
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Puma] arwen was half elven
[Demetria] Arwen was 3/4 elf
[Darkover] If it walks like an Elf, has undying beauty and virtual immortality like an elf…
[Puma] she had a different destiny than elves
[Demosthenes] Also, you have weird exceptions like Maglor.
[Jenniearcheo] Plus, they would have been to drunk on Dorwinion wine to make the effort.
[Puma] peredhil have a choice
[Darkover] Fine, her destiny was different, but that wouldn’t make her less of an Elf
[Demosthenes] presumably still out there somewhere. Singing his little heart out.
[ChristineGolden] But her blood and heritage was elven, Puma. Just because I marry someone from China doesn’t make me Asian.
[Darkover] As far as I know, Demosthenes, Maglor is still out there.
[Puma] arwen was half elven with life of the eldar….which she chose to give up..
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Darkover] Which makes her an Elf, or close enough, Puma
[Puma] Christine.you are missing the point of what half elven means
[ChristineGolden] She chose to give up her immortality and right to go to Valinor, Puma. That did not change her “DNA.”
[Puma] elves had a destiny with death.as did humankind….the peredhil could choose to which kindred their fates would be
[Jenniearcheo] Hang on. If the valar could Ping make Earendil not mortal . . . that changed him, didn’t it?
[Darkover] We get that. Which makes them a different kind of Elf, Puma, not a separate species.
[Jenniearcheo] Or am I getting my guys confused?
[FloraWright] in the book she was a elf in the movie’s she was an elf there is no changing that
[Puma] Christine.go back to sil and see what mandos said to earendil and elwing
[Demetria] she was still immortal and bound to Middle Earth until all the elves and all their works were nothing more than memory
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, they made Tuor “numbered among the elder race.”
[Darkover] Earendil and Elwing had a choice, too, Jennie. Elwing chose to belong to the Eldar, and her husband went along with her.
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover and Demetria.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant Tuor
[Puma] elros chose to be judged among humans
[Puma] elrond with the eldar
[Demetria] exactly and her choice was the same as her father’s and uncle’s
[Puma] but the choice of the children of elrond were bound to his…..when elrond left.they had to make a choice
[Demosthenes] I think that’s the point where you kinda just have to roll with the story. In the same way that there’s really no magic/art but we accept that too.
[Puma] no.just her uncles
[Demosthenes] Otherwise you’ll go bonkers.
[sunshower] [--brain explodes
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Darkover] Right. and from that day forward, Elros was a Man, regardless of who he married. Arwen was an Elf. If you want to argue that she became of the race of Men when she married Aragorn, that’s plausible, but until then, she was an Elf.
[Jenniearcheo] [--- shakes brains off
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my too much information….
[Puma] she was not an elf
[ChristineGolden] They chose to be judged, judgment which only comes after death.
[Demetria] no, she always was an elf
[Darkover] Although the implication, judging by their conversation on Aragorn’s deathbed, was that she could have chosen Valinor even then.
[Puma] she had the same lifespan as an elf at that time
[Puma] arwen was never an elf
[FloraWright] elrond had to make a choice he picked elf then his sons had to choose they picked elf and arwen picked elf untill she met aragorn the she gave up on elf so to speak
[Puma] elrond was never an elf
[Demetria] yes, and with her choice, she was still an elf, though bound to Middle Earth
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, but did she have wings, or just winglike shadows?
[Darkover] Again, as I said before, if someone has the youth, immortality, beauty, etc. of an Elf, then that makes them an Elf. But beleive what you want, Puma. Clearly we are never going to agree.
[Puma] the choice of elladan and elrohir is unknown
[Darkover] Right, as FloraWright said
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was technically 3/4 elf, Puma, with a dash of Maiar.
[Demosthenes] If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck?
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] Jennie
[ChristineGolden] lol, pretty much.
[Demosthenes] I get that
[Puma] half elven does not mean blood…its a state of being
[Puma] and what it means.relates to the 2 different destinies of elves and men
[ChristineGolden] Of course it’s about blood, Puma. If you didn’t have elven blood, you didn’t get that choice. Aragorn was never asked if he preferred to be an elf.
[Darkover] Right
[Puma] idril.upon marrying tuor.did not become human.she was an elf
[FloraWright] im part native american and i have dark skin and dark hair if i marry a white man that doesn’t make me white
[Demetria] no, he was bound to the choice of Elros
[ChristineGolden] Very good, Flora! I was going to make a similar comparison, but thought it may not be quite “PC.”
[Puma] its an improtant point jrr was trying to make.sorry if some of you dont see it
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2when u marry a mortal u do not stop being an elf..it is imposible
[ChristineGolden] Arwen and Aragorn, very loosely, Anameleth.
[Darkover] That’s right, Puma, Idril didn’t change. She didn’t have the luxury of choice. But thanks to the Valar, Tuor did change. But up until the point he became Immortal and Elvish, he was a Man. Up until the point she chose mortality, Arwen was a blasted Elf. We are never going to agree, so can we move on?
[Anameleth] Ahh..
[Puma] she was never an elf
[Anameleth] Are we using the book or movies?
[Jenniearcheo] I think they dinged Tuor not because he married Idril but because he was going to retire to Valinor or sommat, right?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2Darkover take the lead…
[sunshower] book
[ChristineGolden] book
[Demosthenes] Okay, maybe we ought to move on.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my
[FloraWright] yes but elrond is a elf he said it him self he’s like 4000 years old
[ChristineGolden] specifically, appendix 5.
[Darkover] Sorry, Demosthenes, if I got a bit heated. But it seems to me we are chasing our tails, here.
[Anameleth] Okay. And puma, she was never an elf?!
[Puma] jrr wrote of this
[Demosthenes] No, i think we’ve exhausted that particular avenue.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could talk about the wedding. That’s usually a cheerful topic.
[Darkover] Sounds good! Especially as Aragorn wasn’t 100% sure Arwen was going to marry him, after all.
[ChristineGolden] And it is only one of two times Arwen is actually in the book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2we will never agree people so why we still talk about this..
[Anameleth] I was surprised at how little arwen was mentioned in the books
[Puma] she was referred to many times
[sunshower] her first time to speak was in Many Partings?
[Puma] but in subtle ways
[Darkover] In that, I think PJ did a better job. We didn’t find ourselves in the last movie saying, “who’s she?”
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2she only talks as queen isn’t she?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: And that was about Frodo specifically. But then it’s a hobbitcentric book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2in the end
[Anameleth] darkover, I totally agree
[sunshower] yep
[ChristineGolden] I hated her inclusion in the movies, Darkover.
[sunshower] We initially encountered Arwen in Many Meetings, got a few second hand peeks at her in a couple of the many chapters since, maybe a glimpse of her in the previous chapter, and now she’s back in Many Partings. Only now does Tolkien allow us to *hear* Arwen speaking.
[sunshower] Why now?
[Puma] arwen was important in the book
[Puma] but its subtle
[Demetria] agreed Puma
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2to that agree
[Darkover] Well, be honest, Chris, you mostly hated all the movies, didn’t you? so Arwen wouldn’t have been an exception
[Anameleth] She was important but hardly mentioned until the end of ROTK
[bld_th] thats why this appendix is important
[Demosthenes] If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!?
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn would have fulfilled his destiny, with or without Arwen, and become king of Gondor. After all, that’s one of the main purposes of the book.
[Darkover] We don’t really find out how important, or specifically in what ways, until the appendices
[Demosthenes] And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo?s neck. ?When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,? she said, ?this will bring you aid.?
[Demosthenes] A placebo? A “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] Does it work?
[Demosthenes] kind of
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I fell in love with FotR. I disliked the inclusion of all the Arwen scenes because it meant ones I loved in the book had to be cut. According to PJ, that is.
[sunshower] not entirely
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but there is no denying that Arwen gave him incentive. And certainly, Gondor would have had a different queen
[Puma] the main purpose of lotr…is as the sequal to the sil….to finish that story
[Demosthenes] It’s not morphine
[Darkover] I see, Chris
[Pete-Slagheaps] He used it after he got back home, “It’s all dark, Sam”–one of those monemts
[sunshower] Frodo carried the Ring on a chain for much (all?) of his journey.
[sunshower] Any thoughts on what his thoughts may have been as Arwen places a silver chain with a white gem around his neck?
[Jenniearcheo] But it didn’t ward off the dark
[Demosthenes] Which is why Frodo eventually takes the boat. I suspect Arwen knew that would happen.
[Puma] it sure helped
[Pete-Slagheaps] nope
[ChristineGolden] Are you saying that Aragorn had no other incentive to reclaim his throne other than Arwen, Darkover?
[Darkover] maybe similar to what Galadriel gave him?
[Puma] that the gem helped frodo is right there in the book.he would clutch it
[FloraWright] the same effect
[Darkover] Of course he had incentive, Chris. But maybe the incentive of love kept him from becoming embittered and/or arrogant along the way, as a simple attitude of “it’s my birthright, I deserve it” might have done.
[Darkover] Just speculation.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2maybe…
[Demosthenes] It helped somewhat i think puma. if it had been wholly effective, frodo would have stayed in the shire.
[Pete-Slagheaps] my “nope” wasn;t to you, puma, it was to Jennie. Even if it did help some, he still spoke of the fact that the ring was gone forever.
[Demosthenes] In a way it’s a similar thing to the Elessar (which came to Aragorn through Arwen) and to the Three.
[FloraWright] he really didnt half to leave
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Darkover, Aragorn was raised to defeat Sauron and reclaim his throne. I think it ran a lot deeper than ‘for love of a maid.’
[Pete-Slagheaps] (On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. ‘It is gone for ever,’ he said, ‘and now all is dark and empty.’)
[Demosthenes] All of those are focused on healing/preserving the hurts of the world. And Frodo is hurt by malice/sting/sword/etc.
[Darkover] But Aragorn might have remained a chieftain, like his predecessors, instead of becoming the King returned, without the additional incentive of, if you want to marry the woman you love, become king
[Darkover] again, we can’t know for sure, Chris. Just my thoughts
[Demetria] yes that choice was Aragorn’s
[Darkover] That seems to be a characteristic of all Elvish jewels, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was one of the thoughts i had in writing the blurb, that one simple meeting ion the woods drives him to become greater than he might have otherwise been.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2as i see it ..everyonr in this books had a choice..
[Darkover] I think you are right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I know, and I hate speculating about fiction since what’s in the book is all that happened, Darkover. I just think that Aragorn had a ‘bigger set’ and a destiny to fulfill, Arwen or no Arwen.
[Demetria] yes they did
[ChristineGolden] Whoa, that got by Barliman. I’ll have to remember that. ;p
[Darkover] I agree, Chris, but the way he fulfilled it might have taken on a very different form without Arwen. Again, we will never know. that’s why people write AU fanfiction.
[Demosthenes] Teasing out the percentage effect of Arwen is kinda impossible. But it’s certainly not nil.
[ChristineGolden] What is the name of G.. is AU fanfiction?
[sunshower] always unwanted?
[Demosthenes] Similarly, would Beren have done the same sort of things without Luthien?
[Jenniearcheo] lol sunny
[Pete-Slagheaps] Don’t ask, ChrostineGolden, you will get ill
[Darkover] “AU” means “Alternate Universe,” Chris. For example, if a fan wrote a story in which Arwen sailed to Valinor and Eowyn became Queen instead, that would be AU LotR fan fiction.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Christine, not Chrostine
[ChristineGolden] That’s good enough for me, Pete, thanks.
[Anameleth] I believe Aragorn had a, almost duty to fulfill, so to speak. To regain the throne. Amidst all of the chaos that he was going through, i believe that arwen was always a thought in his mind, but not his main goal.
[Demetria] no, Beren did it for the love of Luthien
[Darkover] Hey, Pete, there is some very good fan fiction out there. It just isn’t for everyone.
[Jenniearcheo] He was just, correctly, guessing her reaction to the Alternative Universe idea
[Pete-Slagheaps] It’s defintely *not* for Christine, Darkover, that was my point.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2arwen was his beacon of hope
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think it’s very disrespectful, Darkover, but that’s another discussion.
[Demosthenes] Yet “fate” drove him. fate drives Aragorn too. It’s a messy, inexact concept.
[Darkover] lol, I’m inclined to agree, Pete
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2everyone needs one
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Anameleth: Aragorn would have reclaimed the throne of Gondor, with or without his love for Arwen. Totally different than the other elf-man pairs. And why are the elves always women?
[Jenniearcheo] “Mind yer fate!” “My fate?” “Yeah! Them thaings on the ends of yer laigs!”
[Darkover] but providence is not, Demosthenes.
[Pete-Slagheaps] rofl, Jennie
[Demosthenes] haha
[Darkover] Maybe because women are more inclined to give up things for men, Chris, than the other way around.
[Darkover] That was weirdly funny, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Beren gives up a hand?
[sunshower] Jennie! LOL
[Jenniearcheo] It’s Eddings
[Pete-Slagheaps] and his bachelorhood
[ChristineGolden] It’s always a human man and an elven woman – that had to be deliberate.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but not for Luthien’s sake, but because he was foolish enough to think that would make the wolf get out of his way.
[Jenniearcheo] well, not on purpose, Dems
[sunshower] hi Vince
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gues and elven man won’t lower his standards, an elven woman would.
[Jenniearcheo] He thought it would work like Galadriel’s phial or something
[Demosthenes] True! Are there any last points that we’ve missed?
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] No, I think we’ve covered everything Arwen and Aragorn-related
[Demosthenes] I think we may have run through everything on the topic.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2elen men are heartless snobs
[ChristineGolden] Not that I can think off, Demosthenes.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2*elven
[Pete-Slagheaps] Dunno, Demz–I haven’t been here today, ment’ly
[Darkover] So, shall we talk with each other next time?
[Demosthenes] Well, I think we’ll call that a wrap. Thanks everyone. Next weekend we’ll be off to the golden hall. I think that’s right?
Session Close: Sun May 12 09:49:48 2013

The main character is really Samwise Gamgee, though you may not know it. I’m telling you now, it’s all about Sam.

You can safely argue Frodo Baggins should be the centerpoint of the tale. In The Hobbit Bilbo had the limelight for an entire book, and no one came close to grandstanding him (except maybe Smaug). Seems like Tolkien intended to chronicle the history of the Baggins family; first through Bilbo’s adventures–then with Frodo inheriting more adventures than he bargained for.

The story takes Frodo’s point of view often enough. Throughout the trilogy we share his experiences though personal sensations, his internal thoughts, and even his dreams. Tolkien lets us inside his suffering. And through that suffering we understand the dynamic of true sacrifice. He’s the Ringbearer, after all.

But a character-driven story like LOTR is not strictly about sacrifice (or heroism, or the impermanence of beauty, or all those themes that are intrinsic). I must admit the novel is woven of many threads but the groundwork of the tale, the telling of it, spins on a single proviso: Who is transformed the most between the opening and the closing page, taking the reader through his transformation?

Aragorn is the most heroic character. But it’s not his story.

Gandalf is greatest manipulator of events. But it’s not his story.

Sauron is the ever-present antagonist. But it’s not his story.

Let me give you the clearest example from another fantasy, familiar to all but the most sheltered–Star Wars. You think the original Star Wars films are about some farmboy named Luke Skywalker? You think he’s the main character? BUZZZ! I’m so sorry… thanks for playing! If you had said Darth Vader, you’d be walking home with the grand prize.

The guy in the black helmet is pulling all the strings. Vader begins the first scene of the first episode by walking through that laser-blasted door looking for Leia. He is the first character the audience has a relationship with. More importantly, his choices put the plot in motion for all three films. Every facet of the story we experience is an after-effect of what Darth Vader is doing. When Return of the Jedi comes to its conclusion, it is only after Vader’s most difficult redemption and after we see his glowing form with his predecessors, that we know the story is over. He’s redeemed. Roll credits. The end.

When you write a 1,200-page novel, you have the luxury of branching off into other subplots and you can take time to work with various characters. But you still need one common thread that thematically brings your story full circle. The transformation of Sam is Tolkien’s central storytelling device, though not the most obvious one. There are many clues that reveal Sam, not Frodo, as the main element.

Sam goes an extreme route: from simple gardener to a participant in legend. He starts things off in The Fellowship of the Ring as the first new character we learn about, through a description offered by his father, the Gaffer:

Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo’s tales… Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you.

So you see, our dear Sam is the contact point that we immediately relate to. Just like him, we are daydreaming of fairies, elves, and elephants. That is why Tolkien introduces Sam at once. All the magnificent events of the War of the Ring, the journey, battles, treachery and triumph, are diluted down to this profound effect: Sam is transformed beyond what he recognizes in himself. In the end he becomes the subject of all his dreams. Even he acknowledges that his feats might someday be the subject of future stories and songs.

Sam’s conversation with Frodo in the pass of Cirith Ungol says it all:

‘But that’s not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually–their paths were laid that way, as you put it… I wonder what sort of a tale we’ve fallen into?’

‘I wonder,’ said Frodo. ‘But I don’t know. And that’s the way of a real tale… The people in it don’t know…’

And when Sam realizes the grand stories of the First Age, of Beren and the Silmarils, are indeed connected to the present unfolding events he says:

‘Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on. Don’t the great tales never end?’

‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them come, and go when their part’s ended.’

To this Sam replies, ‘…Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales.’ And with that strangely self-referential remark, the Professor quietly moves Sam into his greatest moments of peril and deliverance.

As final proof, I offer a closer look at the novel’s conclusion. The epic story does not end with the destruction of the Ring, not even with Frodo’s departure from the Grey Havens. The final moment we cling to as the story closes its doors, is of Sam coming back to his family, sitting at his table and declaring that his role in the formation of a myth is done. Three simple words, “Well, I’m back,” are his final admission that there is no more story for him to contribute to.

Sam’s perspective is that he can finally return to domestic life without any further adventures. An end has come to chronicling his tale. He is now back with his family, back to his private life; and the intrusive eyes of future generations can leave him in peace.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam
———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on March 1st 2001 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!

Art by J.R.R. Tolkien for “The Hobbit”

So it is a real pleasure to help publicize events like the 3rd Conference on Middle-earth and its Part 2 scheduled for 2014 in Westford, MA. The word is getting out now to declare that the conference is currently accepting papers. Below is the full press release with links, some of which show how many decades back the event reaches:

The 3rd Conference On Middle-earth, Part 2, to be held March 28 – 30, 2014
in Westford, MA, USA, is currently soliciting papers, presentations, paper proposals, and panel proposals from persons with scholarly interest in any aspect of the worlds of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Suggested topics are: J.R.R. Tolkien’s works, influences on Tolkien, other works based on Tolkien’s writing, criticism, teaching Tolkien in the classroom, the books’ impact on oneself and/or the world, the films and the film industry, the music, the art, the fannish side of this universe and its impact, and anything you can imagine on topic. For examples of previous papers and panels, see the programming for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd conferences: 1st Conference, 2nd Conference, and 3rd Conference.

A few areas of interest are:
• The languages of Middle Earth: how Old English (including Anglo-Saxon riddles), the Eddas, etc. influenced TLOTR.
• Elements of northern European myths that appear in TLOTR.
• The impact of World War I on Tolkien and his writing.
• The impact of The Hobbit and TLOTR on 1960s and 1970s popular music.
• Artistic visions of Middle-earth.
• The astronomy of Middle-earth. [For example, when is Durin's Day?]
• The geography of Middle-earth.
• The geology of Middle-earth.
• The flora and fauna of Middle-earth.
• The clothing of Middle-earth both from the books and the films.
• The food of Middle-earth.
• The poetry and songs of Middle-earth.

Only members of the 3rd Conference On Middle Earth, Part 2, will be able to present and participate. Once papers and proposals have been accepted, the presenter/panelist will need to join the conference (the sooner the better, before rates go up), if they are not already members. If an author cannot be present, then arrangements can be made for a third party to read the paper. However, as indicated, the authors must be members of The 3rd Conference On Middle-earth, Part 2.

Paper Proposal: Please email a 250-word abstract including the presentation title, your name, e-mail address, your mailing address and phone number, or alternately a second e-mail address. The maximum reading time for the finished paper is 30 minutes, roughly 2000 words, though it may be less. We will confirm receipt of proposal by e-mail.

Panel Proposal: Please email the panel name and a 250-word abstract. Please include the panel title, the panel chair (who may be one of the presenters), e-mail address, the mailing address and phone number, or alternately a second e-mail address of each presenter. The receipt of proposal will be confirmed by e-mail.

Submit your proposal to: programming@3rdcome.org.

Deadline for Submissions: You may submit a proposal up through Tuesday, 31 December 2013. Participation is limited, so submissions may close early—so it’s best to get a proposal in sooner rather than later.

NOTE: Confirmation of receipt of submissions does not guarantee acceptance for presentation.

Check out http://www.3rdcome.org for more information on the conference.

Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

Bilbo set against Smaug by Ringer Skaan.

How?

Well, we also saw Smaug’s head buried in that selfsame pile. So the size of the coins gives us a basis for comparison.

Skaan then resized the Bilbo promo figure so the coins matched across both. Just check out the picture above. And I think we can all agree that Smaug is, indeed, impressively large.

Then I wondered, why not take this a step further? Why not see if we can use this comparison to as precisely as we can* calculate the size of Smaug’s eye, nostril and even his entire head?

And then we can maybe extrapolate a little to guess the length of Erebor’s winged worm.

Establishing a base measure: how big are the coins?

This is the first and most important step. If we can’t calculate the diameter of one of those gold coins, we’re stuffed.

Luckily, Weta in its wisdom has told us exactly how tall they believe Bilbo is. That particular factoid was revealed through Empire last year with a chart depicting the heights of the major characters. Bilbo? He’s 1.27 metres tall, apparently. That’s 4′ 2″ in the old scale.

Aside: that’s actually a little on the tall side. In Letter #27 Tolkien notes the height of the Hobbit: “Actual size – only important if other objects are in picture – say about three feet or three feet six inches”. By clear implication he means Bilbo, but that’s an objection for another time.

So then, in our aforementioned picture of Bilbo sprawled on the hoard, I found myself a coin that appeared to be flat and front on. Then I roughly deep-etched it in Photoshop. Now I have a sample coin from the hoard. It’s going to be our base measure.

But Bilbo is all curled up there. No way to measure the coin against Bilbo there. Surely we’re stuck.

Getting Bilbo’s full height

Luckily Photoshop can come to the rescue again.

There are plenty of full-length shots of Bilbo out there. I chose the bog-standard press shot that has Bilbo leaning against his walking stick with a grey, textured background. The fact that he’s leaning forward might affect the perspective a little, but probably not too much.

Of course, I can’t just start using that image. How do I know this particular Bilbo is the right size? So we have to resize Promo!Bilbo to match the proportions of Hoard!Bilbo.

I used the spacing of the eyes as a visual guide (see image at right).

And, using some nifty canvas expansion, layering, and proportion-matching we can make Promo!Bilbo more or less precisely match Hoard!Bilbo.

How many coins tall is Bilbo?

Now, we can finally start stacking those coins against our standardised Bilbo in Photoshop.

Turns out (see image below) Bilbo is as tall as 31 of those shiny, shiny gold coins. So, with a little simple division we discover that the diameter of one of Smaug’s gold coins is 4.09 centimetres (127 divided by 31).

That’s a reasonably sizeable coin, by the way. The largest of Australia’s coin denominations — the 50 cent piece — has a diameter of just a touch over three centimetres. The UK’s 50p coin is around 2.75cm and the Kiwi 50 cent coin is just a touch under 2.5cm across.

We’re only halfway there, though. Now we have to start looking at Hoard!Smaug.

You know those finely crafted little moments you always remember from a movie or play? Even if you don’t see the performers again the brightest or funniest quips will linger on. The best movie dialogue has a way of becoming oft-heard bon mots relished among water cooler conversation.

The same goes for literature but often in broader measure. The most impressive wordplay remains within your psyche long after you put the book down. When the rubber meets the road, it’s how a great writer is elevated above the ordinary herds.

Indeed one of the first things you learn about J.R.R. Tolkien is that his work is ripe with just such powerful language. His wonderful ability to play with tone, color, and emotion made it easy for me to select the following from The Lord of the Rings. These are my favorite one-liners (or two-liners), that stand out as having a striking impact. Consider this collection a literary sampler akin to “Tolkien’s Greatest Hits.”

Lord knows that the Professor himself would frown upon the idea, yet I present them playfully and respectfully. Whenever I read and encounter these moments I am forever impressed with intensity, humor, or remembrance.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Most bittersweet line:

“I have quite finished, Sam,” said Frodo. “The last pages are for you.”

Best exclamation of joy:

“Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!”

Most perfect description of beauty:

Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

Most poetic description of the weather:

The weather was grey and overcast, with wind from the East, but as evening drew into night the sky away westward cleared, and pools of faint light, yellow and pale green, opened under the grey shores of cloud. There the white rind of the new Moon could be seen glimmering in the remote lakes.

Most shocking moment:

But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss.

Most gruesome encounter:

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.

Most colorful analogy:

“Troubles follow you like crows, and ever the oftener the worse.”

Best example of friendly competition:

“Forty-two, Master Legolas!” he cried.

Most powerful moment of rage:

Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.

Best invitation to dinner:

“You shall come home with me! The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter.”

Wittiest rejoinder:

Saruman- ”For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!”
Gandalf- ”I liked white better.”

Spookiest moment:

Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. “It is gone forever,” he said, “and now all is dark and empty.”

Most gothic description of evil:

Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.

Most shrewd political advice:

“He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling.”

Single best piece of advice:

“Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.”

Single funniest line:

“…What’s taters, precious, eh, what’s taters?”

Funniest exchange between two characters:

Éomer- ”…For there are certain rash words concerning the Lady in the Golden Wood that lie still between us. And now I have seen her with my eyes.”
Gimli- “Well, lord, and what say you now?”
Éomer- ”Alas! I will not say that she is the fairest lady that lives.”
Gimli- ”Then I must go for my axe.”

Most beautiful dream sequence:

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.

Most enigmatic historical allusion:

“Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!”

Strongest statement of gender equality:

“In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen.”

Most romantic kiss:

And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.

Most exciting call of alarm:

AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!

Most intimidating description of geography:

Ever and anon the furnaces far below its ashen cone would grow hot and with a great surging and throbbing pour forth rivers of molten rock from chasms in its sides. Some would flow blazing towards Barad-dûr down great channels; some would wind their way into the stony plain, until they cooled and lay like twisted dragon-shapes vomited from the tormented earth.

Most beautiful sunset:

But in front a thin veil of water was hung, so near that Frodo could have put an outstretched arm into it. It faced westward. The level shafts of the setting sun behind beat upon it, and the red light was broken into many flickering beams of ever-changing colour. It was as if they stood at the window of some elven-tower, curtained with threaded jewels of silver and gold, and ruby, sapphire and amethyst, all kindled with an unconsuming fire.

Most insidious falsehood:

“Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world.”

Most spectacular moment of destruction:

Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land.

Most moving speech on the battlefield:

“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.”

Most Shakespearean dialogue:

“Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,” said Denethor. “Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse lay yet in the dregs?”

Most wonderful hobbit irony:

Then there was Lobelia. …and there was such clapping and cheering when she appeared, leaning on Frodo’s arm but still clutching her umbrella, that she was quite touched, and drove away in tears. She had never in her life been popular before.

Two moments that surely inspired the 60’s hippie counter-culture:

1. “Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!” … The hobbits ran about for a while on the grass, as he told them.

and

2. All that day they walked about in the woods with him, singing, and laughing; for Quickbeam often laughed. … Whenever he saw a rowan-tree he halted a while with his arms stretched out, and sang, and swayed as he sang.

Passage of utmost triumphant rapture:

And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

Line that always, always makes me weep uncontrollably:

There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Many of you certainly have your own take on what qualifies as the “most humorous,” “most shocking,” etc., and that’s fine too. This pursuit is a matter of taste, perhaps, but you cannot deny the foundation: Professor Tolkien showed his passion on every page, with every turn of phrase. Of his labors he wrote in a 1950 letter to Milton Waldman:

… It was begun in 1936, and every part has been written many times. Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered. And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered.

No better insight can be given towards understanding the perfection of his tastes in authorship. Here is the major facet that most assuredly elevates him and his body of work. We, his eager readership, are indeed blessed with his remarkable and thoroughly romantic word craft.

Much too hasty,

Quickbeam

———————————————————————-

Follow Cliff “Quickbeam” Broadway on Twitter: @quickbeam2000

———————————————————————-

This article was first published on August 8th 2000 in Green Books. In an effort to introduce new Tolkien fans to our nearly 14 years of archived content, we will be publishing articles like this on a regular basis. We hope you enjoy it!