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Hall of Fire this weekend: Akallabêth

Demosthenes — Sat, 10 Aug 2013 08:57:31 +0000

This weekend in the Hall of Fire, we will be discussing one of the great (and tragic) stories of Tolkien’s Legendarium, Akallabêth: The Downfall of Numenor.

A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. Akallbeth, The Silmarillion.

Akallabêth: The Downfall of Númenor

Documented in The Silmarillion, Akallabêth charts the rise and fall of the Dúnedain of Numenor. Rewarded with a bounteous land of their own for their forefathers’ sacrifices in the dreadful wars against Morgoth, after centuries of peace and propsperity the anscestors of the Númenoreans proceed to throw it all away in a fit of hubris and misplaced envy of the immortality of the elves of Valinor and of the Valar themselves.

Not even the most earnest entreaties of elven emissaries sent by Manwë himself seems able to dissuade the Númenoreans that Valinor itself is the source immortality.

And when the last and mightiest Númenorean king Ar-Pharazôn brings Sauron to the island as his prisoner and hostage, it’s not long before the Dark Lord seduces the majority of the populace to the open worship of Morgoth and has the king plotting war upon the Undying Lands.

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

The Silmarillion: Akallabêth
Unfinished Tales: The Druedain

Time zone conversions

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11.00pm CST (Paris)
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Asia-Pacific
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How long do your topic chats go for?

Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is open 24 hours a day. We don’t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you’ll usually find one or two of “the regulars” up for a chat!

Where — connection details

Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via our embedded Mibbit client that works inside your web browser.

Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as mIRC on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.

Server: irc.theonering.net
Port: 6667
Channel: #thehalloffire

TWO YEAR Anniversary of Our Live Webcast TORn Tuesday!

Cliff Quickbeam Broadway — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 23:53:15 +0000

It is hard to believe, but the little live webcast that could, TORnTUESDAY, has reached a new milestone! Two years non-stop, ongoing live coverage of major fan events such as Comic-Con and Dragon*Con — as well as bringing you a bevy of stars such as Sean Astin, Dominic Monaghan, Billy Boyd and his band Beecake, Royd Tolkien, “The Last Unicorn” and LOTR writer Peter S. Beagle, “Hellboy” star Doug Jones, “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles” creator Kevin Eastman, the Happy Hobbit girls, “Lord of the Rings” Living Card Game designers, and many more!

To mark this special anniversary we will have a lot of material to cover, and let’s all take a closer look at the Extended Edition of THE HOBBIT: AUJ that is coming out — so please bring your questions and comments to the chat!

We launch TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “Nothing Up My Sleeve” Sewell — Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

And yes our YouTube channel will have this archived later. You can find us on www.youtube.com/the1nering

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Follow Cliff Broadway: @quickbeam2000

Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/theoneringnet

Hall of Fire this weekend: The Palantìr

Demosthenes — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:43:37 +0000

This weekend in the Hall of Fire, we’ll be chatting about the final chapter of Book III of The Two Towers.

‘Go to sleep!’ said Merry. ‘You’ll get information enough, sooner or later. My dear Pippin, no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness; but is this the time, I ask you?’

‘All right! What’s the harm in my telling you what I should like: a look at that stone? I know I can’t have it, with old Gandalf sitting on it, like a hen on an egg. But it doesn’t help much to get no more from you than a you-can’t-have-it so-go-to-sleep!’

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter XI: The Palantìr

When Wormtongue hurls a black orb at Saruman from the upper levels of Orthanc, the first to respond is Pippin. Gandalf rescues it from him, but the strange object piques the Hobbit’s curiosity.

Later that night when Gandalf, Theoden and the remainder of the company rest, Pippin finds a way to steal the orb from the wizard’s grasp and peer into its dark depths. His reckless toying with the orb, an ancient Palantìr that allows communication over incredible distances, rapidly puts him in dreadful danger — caught in the grasp of the Dark Lord himself. Only Sauron’s greedy desire to bring the Hobbit to Barad-dur for direct questioning saves the Quest.

Gandalf quickly pulls the truth of the encounter from the terrified Hobbit, then as one of the Nine flies over their camp leaves the Palantìr with Aragorn and rides with Pippin for Minas Tirith.

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

TTT Bk III, Ch XI: The Palantìr
Unfinished Tales: The Palantìr

Time zone conversions

America:
6.00pm EDT (New York)
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)
4.00pm MDT (Denver)
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)

Europe:
11.00pm BST (London)
11.00pm CST (Paris)
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)

Asia-Pacific
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington

How long do your topic chats go for?

Where — connection details

Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via our embedded Mibbit client that works inside your web browser.

Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as mIRC on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.

Server: irc.theonering.net
Port: 6667
Channel: #thehalloffire

Live Webcast TORn TUESDAY With End Of Filming News & More

Cliff Quickbeam Broadway — Tue, 30 Jul 2013 23:58:54 +0000

Everyone gather round for our weekly live webcast TORnTUESDAY! We have some great footage from our livestream at San Diego Comic-Con and above all we have coverage of the final days of shooting THE HOBBIT films down in New Zealand. They just completed all their photography a couple of days ago.

We will have lots of mischief today — so please bring your questions and comments to the chat!

We launch TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “I Make Damn Good Shirts” Sewell — Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

And yes our YouTube channel will have this archived later. You can find us on www.youtube.com/the1nering

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Follow Cliff Broadway: @quickbeam2000

Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/theoneringnet

Hall of Fire tomorrow: aspects of heroism within the Fellowship

Demosthenes — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 14:50:21 +0000

Last weekend in Hall of Fire we discussed the hero and the heroic in Lord of the Rings. The topic proved quite popular for everyone, so by request this weekend we’ll be honing in a little more to examine heroism among the Fellowship itself.

‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us. A Shadow of the Past, The Lord of the Rings.

Aspects of heroism within the Fellowship

What do the Fellowship have to tell us about heroism? How does the heroism of Aragorn differ from the bravery of Boromir? Is Gandalf’s sacrifice at the Bridge of Khazad-dum the single-most selfless act of the entire Quest? Is Sam’s steadfastness actually that different from Frodo’s determination to not give in?

And if the bravery of each of the hobbits in the face of increasing adversity and danger show us that heroism need not have a great lineage, then what do Legolas and Gimli have to teach us?

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

FOTR Bk I, Ch 11: A Knife in the Dark
TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Time zone conversions

America:
6.00pm EDT (New York)
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)
4.00pm MDT (Denver)
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)

Europe:
11.00pm BST (London)
11.00pm CST (Paris)
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)

Asia-Pacific
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington

How long do your topic chats go for?

Where — connection details

Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via our embedded Mibbit client that works inside your web browser.

Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as mIRC on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.

Server: irc.theonering.net
Port: 6667
Channel: #thehalloffire

Special Guests Royd Tolkien Joins TORn TUESDAY Live Webcast!

Cliff Quickbeam Broadway — Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:53:33 +0000

Today we need a bigger guest couch as ROYD TOLKIEN (Great- great- grandson of J.R.R. Tolkien) joins our show along with the delightfully funny Kili & Fili (THE HAPPY HOBBITS girls) for our weekly webcast TORn TUESDAY. We have just come back from a whirlwind tour of craziness and fandom at San Diego Comic-Con! Our presentation for THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG was the only thing representing Tolkien at the entire show, and we were mustered like the Rohirrim, baby!

I promise a fantastic and off-the-cuff show today — so please bring your questions and comments to the chat!

We launch TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “Up All Night To Get Lucky” Sewell — Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

And yes our YouTube channel will have this archived later. You can find us on www.youtube.com/the1nering

————————————————-

Follow Cliff Broadway: @quickbeam2000

Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/theoneringnet

Hall of Fire this weekend: the hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings

Demosthenes — Sat, 20 Jul 2013 04:26:42 +0000

This weekend, Hall of Fire we’ll be exploring the hero, and the heroic, in the Lord of the Rings.

I think the simple ‘rustic’ love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero’s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the ‘longing for Elves’, and sheer beauty. Letter #131, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

The hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings

We know from his letter to Milton Waldman that Tolkien regarded Sam as the chief hero of the tale. But why? What is it that makes him Tolkien’s hero? Do you even agree with Tolkien’s appraisal?

More generally, what actions or traits create a hero anyway?

The Greek and Latin etymology of the word suggest a hero is a protector, or a defender.

So is it all about sheer physical strength and courage in battle such as Boromir exhibited? Warrior brawn? But what of the inspirational guidance that Aragorn and Gandalf show? And how much of a role must adversity play? And are quieter, less flashy traits important ingredients? Traits such as steadfastness and loyalty to a seemingly impossible cause or task?

Join us in the href=”http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat”>The Hall of FireHall of Fire on Saturday July 20 from 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be another great discussion.

Some suggested reading:

TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Time zone conversions

America:
6.00pm EDT (New York)
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)
4.00pm MDT (Denver)
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)

Europe:
11.00pm BST (London)
11.00pm CST (Paris)
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)

Asia-Pacific
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington

How long do your topic chats go for?

Where — connection details

Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via our embedded Mibbit client that works inside your web browser.

Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as mIRC on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.

Server: irc.theonering.net
Port: 6667
Channel: #thehalloffire

Today We Speak of Happier Things on TORn TUESDAY Live Webcast!

Cliff Quickbeam Broadway — Wed, 17 Jul 2013 00:00:54 +0000

Today join us and Kili and Fili (THE HAPPY HOBBITS girls) for our weekly webcast TORn TUESDAY, as we are on the eve of San Diego Comic-Con! We have so much to talk about to raise your spirits, even with the ironically titled THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG!

We are going to have a lot to discuss before our presentation! Bring your questions and comments to the chat!

We launch TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “I’ll Read It Someday” Sewell — Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

And yes our YouTube channel will have this archived later. You can find us on www.youtube.com/the1nering

————————————————-

Follow Cliff Broadway: @quickbeam2000

Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/theoneringnet

Hall of Fire chat log: the stewards of Middle-earth

Demosthenes — Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:28:05 +0000

Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf’s famous “For I also am a steward” rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.

And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.

Session Start: Sun Jul 07 07:24:00 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic today: the stewards of middle-earth. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay. Let’s maybe get this show on the road?
[ChristineGolden] But that doesn’t make them stewards, Erkenbrand.
[Puma] the valar and even eru are very present in lotr….and sil of course
[Erkenbrand] the ainur are more detached and influence middle earth indirectly
[Gondhir] also… Frodo didn’t have a direct influence for good?
[Puma] no they dont
[Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. You know the Istari ARE Ainur, right?
[Puma] for instance…..how did faramir many times.and bormoir once get the dream
[Demosthenes] Stewards of Middle-earth. Who? What? Why?
[Demosthenes] Many characters seem to fill the role of stewards in Tolkien’s Middle-earth. Some are obvious: rulers such as Denethor and Theoden, members of the council of the wise like Elrond and Garadriel, the Istari and the Valar.
[Demosthenes] Treebeard, and even Tom Bombadil and the Entwives can also be examined in the same light. Others such as Samwise and Eowyn are more subtly portrayed.
[Demosthenes] But what are the defining traits of a steward in Tolkien’s milieu?
[Erkenbrand] the istari are maiar
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think we should first define “steward.”
[Gondhir] Sam is an ACTUAL steward, I’d stay
[Erkenbrand] and I am classing the istari separately
[Demosthenes] I agree.
[Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. Yes. And the Valar and the Maiar together are the Ainur..
[Gondhir] like… he serves food etc.
[Jenniearcheo] Frodo didn’t steward much apart from the Ring. And perhaps the Shire, indirectly.
[Jenniearcheo] And Gollum, one could argue
[Demosthenes] What is a steward, here?
[Puma] the dreams came from ulmo who has a history of sending dreams.that is direct influence
[ChristineGolden] A steward is someone entrusted by a higher power to carry out their orders.
[Gondhir] right
[Gondhir] a vicar, as it were
[Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. So practically the Istari?
[Jenniearcheo] I would say a steward was someone entrusted to protect or oversee something.
[Demosthenes] Can a steward be self-appointed?
[Puma] and ulmo of all the valar.always did his best to look after middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think anyone appointed Treebeard to anything
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think so, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] He sort of took on that role because he was him
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Who do you think would be the steward of Gondor in the forth age?
[sauronswife] Faramir…
[Demosthenes] “But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish,
[Puma] faramir at the start
[Jenniearcheo] One could argue Tom Bombadil was the steward of his little bit of earth. Certainly nobody appointed him
[Ringlordsander] But, if you define a steward as someone ‘entrusted by a highter power to carry out their orders’. You could argue that almost everyone in ME is a steward
[Demosthenes] if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit
[Puma] then his son elboron
[Demosthenes] and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know??
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Would there be any more kings after aragorn?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf doesn’t mention anything about being appointed to be one.
[Gondhir] I think a steward has to be working FOR SOMEONE
[miriel] good point jennie
[ChristineGolden] We don’t know that, Jennie, mainly because we don’t know who or what Bombadil really was.
[Jenniearcheo] Even if that someone is oneself?
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: Gandalf doesn’t mention it, but he was, in fact, appointed by the Valar
[Puma] well.the ainur work for eru
[miriel] would we find a steward in the Shire, do you say?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I suppose. He didn’t seem to feel very subservient to anyone
[Demosthenes] miriel: the mayor? the thain?
[Erkenbrand] sam is a steward in the shire
[Gondhir] the Thain is arguably the “steward” of the King of Arnor
[Jenniearcheo] Several people steward the Shire
[Jenniearcheo] Even the rangers
[Puma] sam became a steward of the shire after the war
[Gondhir] the King then… disappeared
[Gondhir] just as there ceased to be a King of Gondor
[Gondhir] but the Stewards of Gondor continued on
[Darkover] mae govannen, all!
[Demosthenes] gond: but … positions of feudal power are usually initially acquired by force.
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[sauronswife] Evening Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Which is … well … self-appointment.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Goldberry] hey darkover
[ChristineGolden] Grima Wormtongue was a steward.
[Puma] jrr specifically said middle earth was not feudal
[Gondhir] I don’t think Grima was a steward
[miriel] the thain dies sound more like a steward than the mayor. Was there not a point where there was talk that if there was a rightful leader of the shire, it would be him?
[Darkover] Was Wormtongue a steward, or an advisor, Chris?
[Ringlordsander] But almost everyone is someone appointed by someone else… So could we argue that basically everyone in Middle-Earth is a steward?
[Demosthenes] puma: heredirtary (and classist) power structures then.
[Goldberry] where did he say that Puma?
[Erkenbrand] can a steward be a steward if they are working for an evil power?
[Darkover] There was, Miriel, when the “Chief” Lotho began challenging the Tooks
[ChristineGolden] He ran Rohan in Theoden’s name until Gandalf did his exorcism thing.
[Gondhir] actually… Grima may have been acting as Theoden’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] Not a very responsible steward
[Gondhir] depends on to what extent he was actually “running’ Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] Saruman was arguably a very irresponsible steward of Isengard
[Gondhir] in the movie, he clearly IS directly running it
[ChristineGolden] Btw, hi, Darkover, didn’t see ya slip in.
[Gondhir] not so clear in the book
[Puma] from 3014 on grima was a steward of theoden
[miriel] thanks Darkover, that was the thing I was remembering
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What became of Orthanc after the Fall of saruman?
[Darkover] I doubt if evil Stewards can exist, Erkenbrand, because Sauron and other baddies don’t trust underlings enough to give them any great power in their own right.
[Jenniearcheo] Duno
[Puma] aragorn reclaimed it
[Gondhir] Darkover: Of course “evil” steward exist
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] did anyone settle in it
[ChristineGolden] Denethor was hardly a force for good, and he was definitely a steward.
[Jenniearcheo] Presumably the pits were filled in
[Gondhir] you don’t think Sauron entrusted anything to underlings?
[sauronswife] I’m iffy on “evil stewards…” I need a LONG think on that.
[Ringlordsander] So Frodo was a steward as well? He did lord Elrond’s will by taking the Ring to Mordor…
[Gondhir] he didn’t DIRECTLY control everything
[Puma] Denethor was a force for good!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] How could Frodo be a steward?
[lunarising] could the witch king be considered a ‘steward’ of Minas Morgul?
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Was he given the keys and it was left empty?
[Erkenbrand] saruman has some trust in grima and sauron has trust in gothmog and the witchking (who in turn trust kahmul)
[Gondhir] I don’t think Frodo was a steward
[Gondhir] he wasn’t “working for” anyone in particular
[Jenniearcheo] I’d say he did the Council of Elrond’s will, but yeah, he stewarded the Ring on its way to Mt. Doom
[Gondhir] he certainly wasn’t Elrond’s steward
[Darkover] Chris, I don’t believe that is fair. Denethor protected Gondor for a long time. He may not have been charming about it, but that doesn’t lessen the rightness of his cause.
[ChristineGolden] Or carrying out the commands of a higher being.
[Gondhir] “doing a good thing” does not mean that one is a steward
[Puma] frodo volunteered….elrond said he thought the choice was right
[Gondhir] any more than “doing a bad thing” means that one is not
[ChristineGolden] He became corrupted, Darkover, like Boromir.
[Darkover] Gondhir, I didn’t say Sauron didn’t trust *anything* to underlings–clearly he did–but he would not have allowed one so powerful as a “steward” to exist, else that steward might become a rival someday.
[Jenniearcheo] Depends on what he did, lunarising. Sitting in a chair twirling an imaginary moustache isn’t really stewarding
[Ringlordsander] Puma. But it was lord Elrond’s will. And Frodo carried it out.. So that’d make Frodo a sterward by the definition we just made up..
[Demosthenes] Must a steward be powerful, darkover?
[Erkenbrand] denathor did both protect gondor and try to repel sauron but is was more for selfish motives
[Darkover] At the end, Chris, maybe so. But that was a personal failing on his part, it didn’t diminish the rightness of Denethor’s cause.
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Well what would saruman do with the ring if he attained it before sauron?
[Puma] i dont see Denethor as selfish
[Demosthenes] There has to be some element of responsibility. Otherwise there is no stewarding,
[Darkover] Demosthenes, yes, a Steward must have some power, else he is just a Steward in his own mind only.
[ChristineGolden] Then I disagree with the made-up definition, Ringlordsander.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure Denethor had many other duties in which he protected the welfare of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] We just don’t hear of the day-to-day
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, what you just said. Sorry, I can’t reply to all these threads fast enough1
[Erkenbrand] sam does not have lots of power, just respect yet almost all of us agree that he was a steward
[Darkover] !
[Gondhir] Darkover: Dol Guldor was being run by Khamul, one of the Nazgul
[Demosthenes] darkover: No that’s ok!
[Puma] Denethor had minas tirith very well prepared for the war.or at least as much as he could have
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demetria] Denethor was steward by birthright, and did his best to protect Gondor, however it did go to his head
[Darkover] Right, I agree with Puma’s comment about Denethor
[Gondhir] the WK ran Angmar and most (or at least a great deal) of Eregion
[ChristineGolden] I believe Sam was a steward only when he became mayor (?) of the Shire.
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, how was Sam a steward, unless you’re talking about his years as Mayor of the Shire?
[Jenniearcheo] I think the corruption by Sauron was subtle and slow, but that he otherwise was a responsible Steward. Until the end.
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Gondhir] the book implies that the Mouth of Sauron is going to be appointed Warden of the West (or somesuch) in the event that the Gondorians et al surrender (or are crushed)
[Puma] i agree jennie.but b4 that also.when he spread the dust from the box.and planted the mallorn
[Erkenbrand] he practicaly rebuilt the shire
[Demetria] Sam became steward of the books given to him by Frodo, which was the history of the ring
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was a steward for good but after Boromir’s death he was really hit emotionally and could not act to his fullest
[Demosthenes] jennie: Aragorn did say (and we discussed this last week) that Saruman was “once wise and subtle”
[Erkenbrand] he also allowed Frodo to finish his task
[ChristineGolden] The only Denethor I “know” is the one revealed in the book and he wasn’t what I’d call a good person, let alone good steward.
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was not an evil steward
[Darkover] Ok, Sam became Steward of the books, and he became mayor, but that was all post-Ring War
[Gondhir] being a BAD steward also doesn’t mean that one is not a steward
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Once upon a time, he was a friend to the trees, according to Fangorn
[Puma] Denethor did act to his fullest…..but gave in to despair when he saw what was in cirith ungol
[Darkover] Chris, IMO Denethor was a good person–until his bizarre, self-inflicted end–he just wasn’t a very *nice* person. There is a difference.
[Erkenbrand] are we talking stewards during, before or after the war of the ring? or just stewards throughout?
[Puma] i agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I think Sauron made him despair, but yeah.
[Darkover] Thanks, Puma
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: in general, Erkenbrand
[Jenniearcheo] I think throughout, Erkenbrand
[ChristineGolden] If so, Darkover, then why did Gandalf warn Pippin before they first appeared before Denethor in Minas Tirith?
[Jenniearcheo] So
[Jenniearcheo] Sam counts
[Gondhir] I think Denethor didn’t really “give up” until after Faramir died and he saw the massive forces marshaling against Gondor
[ChristineGolden] Oh, knowing this discussion, Erkenbrand, probably all of them.
[Gondhir] and decided that at best, he could prolong Gondor’s demise
[Jenniearcheo] It was a slow self-inflicted end, which Gandalf had seen coming
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What about Rohan?
[Gondhir] and that he might as well get it over with
[Puma] as for stewards of gondor…….i would consider Cirion a steward of middle earth also….by giving calenardhon to the eotheod…he strengthened the world he knew
[Demosthenes] It is arguable that, in the end, Denethor surrendered his stewardship (if not his Stewardship).
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Rohan after the WOTR
[Erkenbrand] my opinion is that denethor gave up after boromir died? does anyone know roughly when he started looking into the palanti?
[Darkover] Because Denethor tended to assume people were trying to keep things from him, plus he had never much trusted Gandalf anyway, and yet here was this hobbit being brought to Minas Tirith by the very wizard Denethor regarded as an untrustworthy busybody. Gandalf was essentially telling Pippin to watch his mouth, and not talk too much about Aragorn.
[Gondhir] Erkenbrand: Denethor started looking in the palantir long before that.
[Puma] he looked into the palantiri soon ofater ecthelion died
[Erkenbrand] any idea when?
[Demosthenes] Which is actually different to What Saruman (and Sauron) do as powers in the world.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’d been looking for a long while. Sauron was only gradually infecting him with darkness and despair
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, Denethor was not to be trusted.
[Demosthenes] They take different paths.
[Darkover] I think Denethor had begun palantir-gazing before that, but the death of Boromir sapped a lot of his spirit.
[Demetria] yes it did
[Puma] notice.denethor did not give into sauron as saruman did
[Erkenbrand] would anyone class faramir as a steward?
[ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Yes
[Darkover] I would–Faramir was the last ruling steward.
[lunarising] I would
[ChristineGolden] He was a steward, small and large S.
[Gondhir] Faramir was an actual Steward of Gondor
[Puma] faramir became one.to rebuild ithilien
[Darkover] Ooh, I like that, Chris
[Demosthenes] Puma: If he had, he would have become more like Saruman. More authoritarian. And that’s the nasty flipside of a stewarship.
[Demetria] yes he was, and give a relm of his own as well
[Demosthenes] Great power can turn you into an authoritarian lunatic.
[ChristineGolden] His father gave him Ithilien to safeguard, and then he became Steward of Gondor until Aragorn was crowned.
[Puma] Denethor was a politician at heart.that was his weakness
[Darkover] And he was still Steward after Aragorn was crowned, by Aragorn’s decree, only he was no longer full ruler of Gondor–the King was
[Demetria] Aragorn gave him Ithilien after he was crowned
[Jenniearcheo] Somebody’s got to arrange for garbage pickup
[Erkenbrand] can anyone think of a dwarf who could be a “Steward”?
[ChristineGolden] No, not offhand.
[Darkover] It strikes me that a lot of you people are really harsh towards Denethor. As Jennie just said, someone has to arrange for garbage pickup, so to speak.
[Demetria] Thorin
[sauronswife] Not sure Gimli would count but beyond him no other Dwarves come to mind.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t consider Gimli a steward.
[Demosthenes] I have a question: How does this contrast with the attitude that the Valar show over the millenia toward Middle-earth. Ultimately they are THE stewards. But their stewardship seems to become lighter and lighter as time goes on.
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I believe that a person must have a “bad seed,
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t mean Denethor, Darkover. I meant somebody’s got to deal with the day-to-day running of things, even after there’s a king on the throne.
[Jenniearcheo] To make the big decisions
[ChristineGolden] oops, the ability to be corrupted inside them or they won’t be.
[sauronswife] There’s a GOOD reason the Valar have stepped back, and even stepped back even more. I wish it wasn’t so….
[Darkover] Maybe, Demosthenes, because the Valar began to notice that while their intentions were always good, the results of their interference seldom were.
[Jenniearcheo] One could argue Thror had stewarded Erebor. Until Smaug came.
[lunarising] weren’t they appointed ‘stewards’ until the Children came?
[Jenniearcheo] But, not as anyone’s subordinate
[Erkenbrand] I think that the valar tried to get the people of middle earth to “Steward” themselves with only a little help, (the Istari) and so slowly pulled out over the centuaries
[Demosthenes] darkover: As stewards they have to face the consequences of their interference.
[Puma] take a questionable steward…pelendur..his advice stopped arvedui from becoming king……much evil might ahve been averted but for him
[ChristineGolden] I think, after the War of Wrath, the Valar became hesitant to interfere directly in the affairs of ME, and so they sent the Istari.
[Darkover] Jennie, whether it is Denethor or Faramir, someone has to keep things going on a daily basis. That means you can’t always be nice and polite, especially during the years prior to the Ring War, when Gondor and Mordor were in a sort of Cold War.
[Puma] but the valar directly took part in the war of the ring
[Jenniearcheo] Okay
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: does that make them good stewards, or poor ones?
[Demetria] how?
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, the Valar did, but I suspect that was why their hand on M-E became lighter with time. They decided to let the younger race, Men, take over
[Erkenbrand] good stewards
[ChristineGolden] I’d say good ones because they were able to delegate their power.
[Demosthenes] If Sauron is the example of too much control, are the Valar the example of too little?
[Darkover] Directly, Puma?
[Puma] sam called to varda…..his prayer was answered
[Darkover] Maybe. You could argue that Men could use some help. Of course, the Valar sent the Istari.
[Puma] ulmo sent dreams to faramir and boromir
[Erkenbrand] they achieved the same results but allowed the people of middle earth to come to them by themselves
[Puma] manwe sent wind at several strategic times
[ChristineGolden] If you notice in Tolkien, it’s the people who have a problem with letting go of power who end up becoming evil or corrupted.
[Darkover] Maybe the Valar continued to help, but in a more subtle way, such as dreams, eagles, etc.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, yeah. Forgot about the dreams
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that’s quite true.
[Demetria] the dreams were the most influence at the time of men
[Puma] so the valar sent aid .but the people had to still help themselves
[Darkover] That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, that people help themselves.
[ChristineGolden] Which is how it should be when dealing with free people, Puma.
[Puma] correct
[ChristineGolden] Free will = free choice, good or bad.
[Puma] but the valar are not absent in taking action.they did
[Darkover] Only when the odds were overwhelming, such as fighting against Morgoth or Sauron, should the Valar get involved on a large scale, IMO
[sauronswife] I have such a love/hate relationship with the free-ch9oice concept. :S
[Erkenbrand] if sa
* Baumbart (Mibbit@torn-C7CD8565.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Goldberry] the valar didn’t get too involved with morgoth though
[Jenniearcheo] Well, Sauron’s Wife woul,d
[Demosthenes] Which brings me to another thought … are the elves in a way early stewards for men? And is it their inability to surrender what is entrusted that creates a lot of problems later? (celbrimbor + rings = big mess)
[Demetria] Elrond was also a steward, he made sure the line of kings was protected in the north
[Erkenbrand] I think that people need to have free choice, even if thee choice they make is bad
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree on Moroth, Darkover, because he was a Vala and the people of ME could not destroy him themselves.
[Darkover] They did eventually dispatch Morgoth into the Void, Goldberry
[Puma] elrond was a steward…..of knowledge….he kept records of the past.so other people could learn…..that had import
[Darkover] Right, Chris, that was my point
[Darkover] only you said it more succinctly
[Goldberry] eventually
[ChristineGolden] However, Sauron (who was once Morgoth’s steward) was a different matter.
[Puma] sauron was never a steward to morgoth
[Demetria] yes, and he watched over the succession in the north, for example the sword
[sauronswife] Finrod = Steward for Men. Not sure about other elves (esp Noldor) save Elrond..
[Puma] at best sauron was a top aid.morgoth shared power with none
[Darkover] Sauron wasn’t as strong, but he was still a Maia or the like. That is why the Valar still showed their concern by sending the Istari to help
[ChristineGolden] Wasn’t he Morgoth’s underling, Puma? I seem to recall he was Morgoth’s Lieutenant.
[sauronswife] he was.
[Darkover] Right, Puma! That was the point I was trying to make earlier, about why there are no “evil” stewards as such–evildoers don’t trust their underlings, with good reason.
[Erkenbrand] most of the elves do act as Stewards to the men, that may be because they are wise enough to know that they (the elves) will not be as influential in saurons downfall
[ChristineGolden] Ok, I see what you mean, Puma: I agree
[Puma] yes.jennie.quite correct…but not a steward
[Demetria] Elrond was the only elf entrusted with the ring and sword for Gondor
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry? Who’s not a steward?
[Darkover] Would anyone call Cirdan a steward? I would.
[Erkenbrand] does a Steward have to have power?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t consider the elves to be stewards.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t remember what I’d said. lol
[Puma] i would also Darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Yes, Erkenbrand, otherwise, what is he steward of?
[sauronswife] The evil powers do have to entrust /something/ to their underlings otherwise they’d have to do it all themselves.
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol, I do that, too, Jennie.
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: i think we agreed that generally this is the case. There must be a resposibility over something.
[ChristineGolden] No, I’d call Cirdan a ruler, Darkover.
[Puma] cirdan.gave narya to gandalf.as he.being the most foresighted of all in middle earth.knew gandalf would take care of middle earth
[sauronswife] A resposniblity the steward agrees to take up or one they end up with?
[Darkover] Yes, Sauronswife, but that doesn’t mean the main baddies are going to let their underlings have very much power. Why do you think Saruman wanted the Ring? and why do you think Sauron didn’t want him to have it?
[Erkenbrand] cirdan was given one of the elvish rings and so was sort of entrusted with stewardship…
[Demosthenes] Whether this responsibility has to be explicit or can be left implied is probably what we’re really mulling over.
[Demetria] because Sauron knew what he did do his boss
[Goldberry] was melian a steward of doriath?
[ChristineGolden] steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially, the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one’s care
[Gondhir] Sauron never betrayed Morgoth that I know
[Puma] yes
[Goldberry] she protected it
[Darkover] I don’t see why it necessarily has to be explicit, just that they have power
[Puma] good one goldberry
[Gondhir] also, I would say that no, she was not
[Darkover] No, Goldberry, I think Melian was co-ruler
[Goldberry] thanks, puma
[Gondhir] any more than Galadriel was Steward of Lothlorien
[Darkover] not the same as a steward
[sauronswife] lol Haha Demetria. I still consider Sauron has always been a steward of Morgoth…
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I tend to agree. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck … well, we can argue … but really it’s a duck.
[Demetria] no, but he had enough power and knowledge to take over where Morgoth left off
[ChristineGolden] No, a steward must be delegated power by someone above him/her.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Gondhir] (I do think that Galadriel is mostly a powered-down literary clone of Melian)
* sauronswife nods to Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] And we should just admit it.
[Puma] sauron was a piker compared to morgoth
[Puma] he never had a fraction of the power
[sauronswife] He did continue Morgoth’s destructive designs though…
[Darkover] he was still formidable enough, though, Puma
[Puma] not in the same way.sauron wanted to rule the people
[Puma] morgoth wanted them all dead
[Demetria] Sauron wanted to rule them
[Gondhir] indeed
[marco] saurons evil was more direct than morgoths, morgoths was more spreaded out
[Goldberry] morgoth wanted to corrupt and destroy ME
[Goldberry] destroy the goodness
[Gondhir] I think Morgoth originallly wanted to rule everything
[Demosthenes] To enslave them all. That’s what Gandalf says about hobbits and the shire at the beginning of LOTR.
[Puma] morgoths ring was all of arda
[Jenniearcheo] And he liked sparklies
[Gondhir] but when he couldn’t
[Gondhir] he settled for just destroying everything
[Gondhir] “If I can’t have it, no one can”
[Gondhir] and by “it”, I mean EVERYTHING
[Darkover] I think both Morgoth and Sauron wanted to corrupt and destroy M-E and everything in it. The difference in them lies only in scale, not in malice.
[sauronswife] Good piont there Gondhir.
[Demosthenes] He does not need you – he has many more useful servants – but he won?t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.?
[marco] sauron was kinda or smart than morgoth in a way
[Goldberry] lol gondhir
[Gondhir] Sauron didn’t want to DESTROY things
[Gondhir] he wanted to CONTROL them
[Puma] sauron’s thoughts were not all evil at 1st.they only became so later
[Darkover] Well, Gondhir, he gladly would have destroyed anyone or anything in his way
[Gondhir] well, yes
[Gondhir] he didn’t MIND destroying things
[Gondhir] but it was a means to an end
[Gondhir] for Morgoth, the destruction WAS the end
[Puma] yes Gond!!!!
[Darkover] and if the control is crushing, is there such a big difference between destruction and utter enslavement?
[Darkover] Seems to me we’re splitting hairs. Both were terrible villains.
[sauronswife] I need to reread Silm and look at this whole Morgoth-destroying-everything idea. ANd yes huge differnce between destruction and enslavement.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: you can’t rule something you’ve destroyed?
[Gondhir] no one’s saying that Sauron was GOOD
[Goldberry] true darkover
[TolkienGirl] Sauron is the Illusive Man of Middle Earth.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, I wouldn’t invite either of them to a party twice.
[Darkover] lol, Jennie.
[Goldberry] lol jennie
[Gondhir] although his motives may have been good-ish in the beginning
[Erkenbrand] would anyone say that whilst theoden was unable to rule, eomer and theodred acted as stewards of rohan
[Demosthenes] You can rule an orc … but if you lop the head off an elf, it doesn’t do what you want anymore.
[Gondhir] lots of people have felt that a “strong man” in control is preferable to chaos
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, Erkenbrand.
[Darkover] Not sure I would agree, Sauronswife. Anyway, both destruction and enslavement are miserable fates.
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: Yes, but a dead elf is better than a rebellious elf.
[Puma] think of morgoths power.by being in the body of arda…and both elves and mens bodies came from arda…..he tainted tham all
[ChristineGolden] No, I’d say that Grima was Theoden’s steward, Gondhir.
[Jenniearcheo] lol dems
[ChristineGolden] He had the power to issue orders; he was in charge of the King’s possessions (e.g., his sword), etc.
[Puma] grima was only theodens steward from 3014 on.when he sort of gave the orders
[marco] morgoth risked too much of his power in trying to be so powerful
[Darkover] Actually, to get back to your question, Demosthenes, I think both Morgoth and Sauron–and all their ilk–wanted to rule/dominate all life, everything, completely. But if they couldn’t do that, then they wanted it destroyed.
[Puma] b4 that just an advisor
[Jenniearcheo] But arguably Theodred and Eomer went riding around taking care of Rohan when nobody else was.
[Darkover] as Frodo once said, speaking of Sauron; “What does he not hate?”
[Gondhir] I don’t think Sauron ever got to the level of nihilism that Morgoth did
[Gondhir] hey may have gotten to that point in time
[Puma] yes jennie.both did it against orders
[Demosthenes] He ordered Eomer imprisoned. He was the voice of the king. Very like Mouth of Sauron, in fact.
[Erkenbrand] grima may have been a steward of Théoden, just not a steward of rohan
[Darkover] Again, Gondhir, just a matter of scale or degree, not intent.
[ChristineGolden] True, Puma, but we’re not given any details of Theoden and Theodred’s relationship and Eomer didn’t have any real power as I recall.
[Gondhir] I think it IS a matter of intent
[Gondhir] Sauron intended to rule.
[Demosthenes] Was he also Saruman’s steward? Now, that’s more debatable.
[Erkenbrand] marshall of the mark?
[Gondhir] Morgoth intended to destroy
[Jenniearcheo] The question is whether Grima Wormtongue’s orders were legit, or whether Théoden’s were when he was in his depressive state
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was king; that made Grima steward of Rohan.
[Puma] the battles of the fords of isen in UT give a good account of events in rohan jennie
[Erkenbrand] he didn’t act like a steward should though
[Gondhir] being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward
[Demetria] Theoden’s mind was taken over by Sauruman, therefore Grima was actually his steward
[ChristineGolden] Like we said earlier, Erkenbrand, there’s good stewards and bad ones.
[Gondhir] Theoden’s mind was NOT taken over by Saruman in the book
[Darkover] I seem not to be making myself clear, Gondhir. My point that I’m trying to make, in my rambling way, is that both Morgoth and Sauron would have loved to dominate everything in M-E, and probably the universe.
[Puma] pelendur of gondor can be conceived of as a bad steward
[Darkover] Morgoth was stronger, but in terms of what they both wished to do, both Morgoth and Sauron were intensely evil.
[Goldberry] grima was seeing to sarumans orders, so maybe that makes him saruman’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] I would say that Grima was Théoden’s steward. Eomer and Theodred were Rohan’s.
[Demetria] thank you Goldberry
[Puma] saruman did not share power either
[Gondhir] following someone’s orders does not make one a steward
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the wanted ultimate control. boss-ship, not stewardship.
[Gondhir] otherwise everyone in Gondor would be a steward of Gondor
[Darkover] I would call Grima Saruman’s spy, and Theoden’s advisor, but not a steward.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] That would make him a double agent, but he wasn’t Saruman’s steward because Grima had nothing to do with the operations of Isengard.
[Goldberry] demetria:
[Darkover] Good observation, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Well, again, we probably don’t know about the day-to-day
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, sorry. Isengard. No
[Jenniearcheo] I thought you meant Rohan
[Erkenbrand] but grima did have a hand in some of srumans overall plans (shire)
[Jenniearcheo] perhaps as an agent. Doesn’t make him a steward
[Darkover] In a very slave-like way, Erkenbrand. Hardly a steward.
[Demosthenes] An automaton?
[selinah] hi
[Jenniearcheo] Hi selinah
[Darkover] Hi, Selinah
[Demosthenes] heya selinah
[Gondhir] movieTheoden was arguably an automaton of Saruman
[Demetria] hello selinah
[Erkenbrand] I am not suggesting that he is a steward, he was bullied into what he did
[Gondhir] can’t think of any automatons in the book, though
[Erkenbrand] hi selinah
[Puma] isildur can be seen as a flawed steward of middle earth
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: the Nazgul.
[Gondhir] the Nazgul took orders
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Puma
[Gondhir] probably the closest to an automaton
[Erkenbrand] isildur tried to stop saruman
[Erkenbrand] sauron
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Puma, because Isildur’s power was limited to Gondor.
[Gondhir] but they do seem to have had to “report in” from time to time
[Puma] no
[Puma] isildur also ruled arnor
[Demetria] Isildur was a king in his own right
[Gondhir] Isildur’s “power” extended beyond Gondor but I think including all of ME is stretching it
[Gondhir] there’s a lot more to ME than Gondor and Arnor
[Jenniearcheo] Still. He was arguably flawed
[Gondhir] and he doesn’t seem to have been anyone’s steward
[Jenniearcheo] Wherever he was in charge
[Puma] yes…..but by taking the ring.that involved all of middle earth
[Erkenbrand] It may have been limited to gondor but he did try to act as a steward to most of ME
[Jenniearcheo] Is a king a steward?
[Gondhir] although it’s possible that his father Elendil entrusted some things to him in a steward-like way
[Gondhir] but I dont’ think we’re told that
[ChristineGolden] Oops, sorry, yes Isildur also ruled Arnor, but he certainly didn’t control the elven or dwarf kingdoms.
[Demosthenes] jennie: if you want to get into divine mandates and such … yes?
[Jenniearcheo] That was my thought
[Puma] we are talking stewards…not Stewards
[Demosthenes] If not, probably not?
[ChristineGolden] I think that’s stretching it.
* sauronswife needs Merlin to tell her when the capital S is used…
[TolkienGirl] Merlin?
[Jenniearcheo] I think when it’s a title
[sauronswife] Chat screen-reader….
[Jenniearcheo] When you are formally appointed the Steward of Gondor ™
[Puma] isildur took the ring…..to be a steward of it.with good intent….but we all saw how it turned out
[ChristineGolden] I think a steward must have specific duties/responsibilities and be answerable to a higher authority.
[Demosthenes] Isildur does seem to have been the especial guardian of the white tree though.
[Gondhir] I don’t think Isildur even realized it had “power”
[Demosthenes] A very specific sort of stewardship.
[Puma] very true Demz!!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] What if that higher authority is the will of the people?
[Gondhir] he seems to have thought it was just a pretty ring that he took from Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Not that you vote for kings . . .
[Darkover] But can’t that responsibility be implied, Chris?
[Gondhir] as “wereguild”
[Erkenbrand] if isildur tried to be a steward of the ring, could you not suggest that Gollum also tried to be a steward of the ring
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure what you mean, Darkover – in what context?
[Darkover] No way, Erkenbrand
[Puma] isildur when he took the ring.knew what it was
[Goldberry] no
[sauronswife] Yeah… He promised not to let Sauron have it.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Gollum really knew what it was.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[sauronswife] At that POINT anyway…
[Jenniearcheo] At least while he had it
[Erkenbrand] he still tried to care for it and protect it
[Gondhir] Puma: Maybe, but his letter (that Gandalf later found) makes no mention of any power it may have had. He doesn’t seem to have wanted to dominate the other bearers of Rings of Power (the primary purpose of the One Ring).
[sauronswife] See this whole Steward thing seems to be time-limited..
[Darkover] Well, Denethor–we’re back to him–for example, Chris. He was the umpteenth in a line or ruling stewards. By then, his power and authority were pretty clear, but it was assumed, until Aragorn’s return, that the King was long gone.
[Goldberry] gollum wanted it for himself
[Jenniearcheo] Was Morgoth the steward of the silmarils in his crown? Nah
[Darkover] Thus, implied power, but definitely power
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Hmmm … the fate of Numenor might imply that the kings of Numenor, Arnor and Gondor had some sort of answerability to the lord of the west.
[Jenniearcheo] He sure tried to keep ‘em, but that doesn’t make him a steward, does it?
[Demosthenes] And thus in a sense power IS delegated to them.
[sauronswife] But the Silmarils weren’t an evil object. Melkor wasn’t trying to keep them from a being who would when having them back use them to take over the world.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, ok. No, because the original power was bestowed on Denethor’s ancestors. Time may have expanded those powers, but it was a formal transfer of power.
[Gondhir] this can arguably all go back to Divine Right of Kings
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: yes. it’s all very wrapped up in that.
[sauronswife] Why I feel Gollum is a cap-Steward, Melkor with the SIlm would not be.
[Gondhir] where all kings are divinely appointed by God to rule in His name
[Goldberry] we’re getting into the difference between stewarding & ruling over I think
[sauronswife] Elros….
[ChristineGolden] Being held accountable for your actions and choices isn’t the same thing as being given specific duties, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] But you said that a true steward had to answer to somebody. I hope I’m not nitpicking, but with the King long gone, as everyone assumed, who would Denethor and his predecessors have to answer to, Chris?
[Gondhir] God is the Ultimate King of the World
[Goldberry] what is the difference?
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think there’s a firm answer to any of this
[Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but any ruler or leader of any kind who claimed to answer only to God, would make me very nervous.
[Gondhir] especially since everyone here seems to be using a different definition of “steward”
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Goldberry] lol gondhir
[Gondhir] Darkover: Maybe, but that’s because you don’t buy the theory.
[Demosthenes] jennie: i do think it’s quite shaded and not you’re in, or you’re out.
[Erkenbrand] as anyone actually got a dictionary definition of steward?
[ChristineGolden] No one, which is one of the reasons Denethor fell from reason into power-madness, Darkover. I believe there’s a quote on that between him and Gandalf.
[Gondhir] there have historically been lots of people who DID
[Jenniearcheo] Someone already posted one high above, Erkenbrand
[Gondhir] most of the major kingdoms of Europe were based around the concept, at least for a while
[ChristineGolden] Something about Denethor wanting things to stay as they had and he didn’t need no stinkin’ king to return.
[Jenniearcheo] Chris, was that you? Still have it?
[Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but we’re talking about Tolkien’s M-E
[ChristineGolden] I do, Jen.
[Gondhir] yes, that’s true
[Puma] i dont think denethor had power madness….he went mad.but did not abuse power….he just decided to kill himself etc
[Gondhir] and the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor seem to have been operating under that theory
[Gondhir] and in their case, it seems to have been TRUE
[Demosthenes] a person who manages another’s property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.
[Demosthenes] 2.
[Demosthenes] a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.
[Darkover] lol, Chris, yes, I remember that
[Demosthenes] an employee who has charge of the table, wine, servants, etc., in a club, restaurant, or the like.
[Demosthenes] 4.
[Demosthenes] a person who attends to the domestic concerns of persons on board a vessel, as in overseeing maids and waiters.
[ChristineGolden] Steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one’s care/
[Demosthenes] stolen from dictionary.com
[Goldberry] so caring for, not ruling over
[Darkover] Well, Puma, arguably Denethor was abusing his power when he tried to immolate Faramir as well as himself.
[Puma] but you can both care for and rule in certain instances
[Gondhir] the position of Steward of Gondor seems to have originally begun as simply the manager of the king’s household
[Goldberry] true, puma
[Gondhir] like, historically, a lot of other important roles
[Demosthenes] Gondhir: seems like that to me, too.
[Gondhir] chamberlain’s originally actually dressed the ruler
[Jenniearcheo] So, by Chris’s definition, you have the responsibility to manage something “entrusted to one’s care.” It implies you are answerable to someone. But doesn’t specify that
[Gondhir] chamberlains
[Darkover] Until Mardil the Good Steward, anyway, Gondhir
[Jenniearcheo] It could simply be that you are answerable to the people
[Gondhir] marshals and constables took care of the horses
[Jenniearcheo] And so Kings could be Stewards
[Gondhir] etc.
[marco] back
[Goldberry] wb marco
[Erkenbrand] since Grima didn’t responsibly manage anything, he is still a “Steward”
[marco] thanks
[ChristineGolden] Well, except for the Shire, I don’t believe they held elections in ME, Jennie. Not trying to be a smart ass-et, just saying that democracy wasn’t a big thing in ME.
[Gondhir] again, being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward
[Darkover] True, Jennie. “The people” didn’t vote.
[Jenniearcheo] Nnnno . . . . as I said, you don’t vote for kings. I agree.
[Jenniearcheo] But you are responsible to them
[Jenniearcheo] With great power, and all that
[Puma] well…the people sort of did vote for aragorn
[Darkover] And Faramir, as last ruling Steward, did ask the people of Minas Tirith if Aragorn/Elessar should enter and rule there.
[Jenniearcheo] Without support of the people, kings can be deposed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say a king is responsible for his people, but not to them.
[Darkover] Everyone cheered, and he went on in.
[lunarising] wait what? how did they vote for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I think that was part of the ceremony, Darkover
[Goldberry] well, it’s getting late, but it’s been great
[Gondhir] you could argue that the (or a) purpose of the President of the United states is to responsibly manage the government of the United States. And, regardless of your politics, there have undoubtedly been some Presidents who you would think failed to do that. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t President.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Goldberry
[ChristineGolden] they cheered, luna.
[Goldberry] cya
[Darkover] Sure, but in principle, an important part.
[Puma] no official vote..but by acclaimation
[Demosthenes] lunarising: there was a popular acclaim thing after the Cormallen. A bit like ayes and nays in Parliament.
[Darkover] bye, Goldberry
[lunarising] ah thanks Chris
[ChristineGolden] np
[lunarising] forgot that part, thanks too Dem
[Demosthenes] In the Westminster system you can actually have a vote (and bills passing) without a formal Division.
[Jenniearcheo] Kings can be deposed; Presidents impeached. It happens
[Jenniearcheo] Not often in ME, of course
[ChristineGolden] Does anyone really think Aragorn would have just rode away if they people hadn’t cheered? “Okay, I’m outta here.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: the master of lake-town.
[Jenniearcheo] Saruman was kicked out of Isengard, but not by subjects
[Puma] yes.laketown did vote!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe
[Puma] good one Demz!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Dems
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: he might have.
[Gondhir] Laketown seems to have operated a lot like a medieval German township
[lunarising] so could he be considered a steward?
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, he seems to be the quintessential politician.
[lunarising] he was elected like Sam as mayor of the shire
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he was a really sucky steward of Laketown
[Darkover] Happily, the people did welcome him. Under the circumstances, no reason why they shouldn’t have.
[Jenniearcheo] But people probably didn’t realize how bad until Smaug came
[Darkover] Aragorn at Minas Tirith, I mean
[Demosthenes] I think the master of lake-town is a steward. A bad one, or a corrupt one, but still a steward.
[ChristineGolden] Do we know that the Master of Laketown was elected by the people?
[Gondhir] People probably didn’t realize how bad until he absconded with the treasury…
[Gondhir] ChristineGolden: Probably by a subset of the people
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t appear to have been a hereditary position
[Gondhir] I doubt “voter” included all adult persons
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that, Gondhir. (re: treasury)
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly, it does mention that the master was elected.
[Demosthenes] Whether that means universal suffragacy … who knows?
[Puma] it does Demz
[ChristineGolden] More likely, the town leaders were a council and the Master chosen from among them.
[ChristineGolden] the town leaders formed a council…
[Demosthenes] puma: it could have been limited to property owners.
[Puma] at times the steward of gondor was chosen by a council.not all stewards had sons
[Jenniearcheo] On a pier-built lake, what constitutes “property”?
[Gondhir] a house?
[Gondhir] business?
[Demosthenes] jennie: anything that floats.
[ChristineGolden] shops, homes, businesses.
[Gondhir] gold?
[Darkover] your own boat, probably
[Gondhir] (people?)
[ChristineGolden] boats, money, assets.
[Jenniearcheo] Gold doesn’t float
[Puma] bard has his arrow
[Darkover] we seem to have drifted a bit, no pun intended, from stewardship
[Jenniearcheo] very small rocks
[Jenniearcheo] churches
[ChristineGolden] Does anyone think the Noldor were stewards? Because I don’t.
[Darkover] I don’t, either.
[lunarising] no but I think Galadriel sort of became one when she got to Lorien
[Puma] no.the noldor were not stewards
[sauronswife] If they were (still trying to decide on the definition of steward or cap-Steward) they would have been horrendous ones.
[Demosthenes] I think they had an implied obligation to care for middle-earth for their successors.
[Darkover] I think Galadriel was the ruler of Lorien, not a steward
[Demosthenes] Arguably, they were pretty bad at it.
[ChristineGolden] From whom, Demosthenes? They revolted against the Valar, so who did they represent?
[Puma] galadriel was specifically not a queen.nor celeborn king
[Darkover] If you want to look at it that way, Demosthenes, probably everyone who lives in M-E does. Doesn’t make us all stewards, though.
[Demosthenes] From Eru. Or from the Music of the Ainur…
[Puma] they both took over a stewardship of lorien…..after amroth left
[Puma] to preserve it
[ChristineGolden] I think they ruled it, Puma. Didn’t the Fellowship have to be taken before Galadriel and Celeborn when they were captured to have their fate determined?
[Darkover] Yes, they did. Chris is right.
[Puma] not for their fate
[Jenniearcheo] Lord and Lady the same as King and Queen?
[Gondhir] Celeborn & Galadriel were still not Amroth’s Stewards
[Demetria] well supper time for me, it was lovely meeting you all, and enjoyed the discussion
[Puma] not amroths steward
[Gondhir] there was no fiction that he was going to ever come back
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Demetria
[Darkover] Galadriel and Celeborn may not have used the title of Queen and King, but they had as much power
[Puma] but steward imo can mean to preserve
[Gondhir] or that there was anyone they were answerable to
[Darkover] and as Gondhir said, Amroth was never coming back
[Demosthenes] If the elves must inevitably depart to Aman, then … Middle-earth isn’t theirs forever. Thus they have a (moral) obligation to take care of things in the meantime. A stewardship of sorts.
[Gondhir] unless you go back tot he whole “Divine Right” thing
[Darkover] and that was something in canon that Tolkien never really cleared up, anyway
[ChristineGolden] I’d say the difference isn’t worth arguing, Jennie. They held the power of life and death over the Fellowship, whether you call them lord an lady or king and queen.
[Jenniearcheo] I agree
[Puma] elves dont have to go to aman.they can remain.they have free choice
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO, that makes the definition of stewardship so broad as to be almost meaningless
[Jenniearcheo] Also the power to protect or neglect Lothlorien
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, there has to be limits on a word’s definition or it has no value.
[Puma] in one way the noldor can be considered stewards…by keeping morgoth bottled up in the north……they saved much of arda
[Jenniearcheo] They can be fuzzy limits
[Demosthenes] Darkover: sometimes I think that’s the implication of Gandalf’s line to Denethor.
[Gondhir] I don’t think the Noldor were doing that for that reason
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[marco] noldor were selfish
[Puma] i dont either.but it was the result
[Gondhir] Demosthenes: I think that Gandalf was ACTUALLY APPOINTED to be the Valar’s Vicar in Middle Earth
[Gondhir] and the Valar were actually appointed to be Eru’s Vicar in Arda
[Jenniearcheo] vicar. lol
[ChristineGolden] Results can be accidental. I think the Noldor were trying to protect their own kingdoms, their own lands.
[Darkover] And Demosthenes, Gandalf was indeed a steward, but he was given a specific assignment by the Valar, which he willingly accepted. He was not just a person born in M-E
[Demosthenes] gond: yah, but … his statement feels much broader than “i was sent by blah blah blah”
[Darkover] Maybe. Again, we seem to be splitting hairs.
[Puma] splitting hairs is what we do here.lol
[Gondhir] Jenniearcheo: “Vicar” doesn’t just (or originally) mean something like “priest or preacher”
[Jenniearcheo] Still conjures Dawn French in my mind. Sorry
[Gondhir] it’s related to VICARious
[ChristineGolden] me, too, Jen.
[Gondhir] religious vicars were originally “bishop’s vicars”
[Gondhir] who took care of the religious duties the bishop couldn’t be bothered to do
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not arguing with you. Just snickering at the same time.
[Gondhir] well, I’m just saying, in case other people didn’t realize
[Demosthenes] Do we have any other examples we haven’t covered? Did we touch on Fangorn/Treebeard?
[Jenniearcheo] I think you explained it pretty well
[Jenniearcheo] Briefly. And Tom
[Darkover] We seem to have covered everything.
[Puma] treebeard was a guardian of the forests.or in 3rd age fangorn forest
[ChristineGolden] Okay, the Valar were Eru’s stewards and the Istari were the Valar’s stewards. Denethor’s line was the stewards of Gondor – was the line of Eorl stewards for the kings of Gondor?
[lunarising] what about Ciridan and the grey havens?
[Jenniearcheo] Only to point out that neither seemed to have anyone obvious to answer to
[Jenniearcheo] But who demonstrably took care of an area
[Darkover] I mentioned that, lunarising. I thought he might qualify as a steward, but no one here seemed to agree.
[Demosthenes] lunarising: cirdan seems to have had a responsiblity over the straight path.
[Puma] i agree Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I think the ents were stewards created by Yavanna to guard her forests against Aule’s dwarves, etc.
[lunarising] oh – ok that might have been when I fell offline
[Darkover] Okay, one person does, then. Thank you, puma
[Puma] cirdan gave narya to gandalf…..
[lunarising] but I’d agree with you
[Puma] by giving the ring.he was acting as a steward to middle earth
[Demosthenes] I guess you could say Cirdan is the Ferryman. He stewards folks across the ocean.
[ChristineGolden] I would call Cirdan a guardian, Darkover. I know, hair-splitting, but he assumes the responsibility himself. He isn’t appointed to the task that we know of.
[Puma] cirdan was much more than that
[lunarising] he’s a small steward but still a steward
[Puma] he was apponted Christine.its in peoples of middle earth
[Demosthenes] Like Tom B stewards his tiny little patch.
[lunarising] yep
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t recall how Cirdan came to be in the position he occupied.
[ChristineGolden] If you don’t mind, by whom, Puma?
[sauronswife] Visions from the Valar I believe…?
[Puma] jrr wore a late essay on cirdan.explaining his place
[Demosthenes] Darkover: last man standing. Err, elf.
[Darkover] Hi, Alex, which is a lot easier to spell
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes
[Puma] wrote
[Puma] by the valar
[Alex] lolz
[ChristineGolden] Thanks.
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry, Alex.You’ve sort of come in at the end of a long conversation.
[Alex] lol
[Alex] dont i always
[Puma] its there…..i can get quote anytime you ask
[Jenniearcheo] Be here next week an hour and a half earlier than now.
[Demosthenes] Final arguments then? Last chance.
[ChristineGolden] Then, yes, I’d say Cirdan was a steward, but I don’t know of anyone appointing Bombadil.
[Puma] okie
[ChristineGolden] So, I’d call him a guardian, not a steward.
[sauronswife] I feel like I’m FORGETTING someone but meh.
[Alex] yes ma’am!
[Puma] great job Demz.this was a fun topic
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’ll take you up on that, Puma.
[sauronswife] This topic has given me a headache. lol
[Darkover] I think we covered about everybody. And we all had a lot to say. Exceptionally good discussion!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, thanks all.
[lunarising] yes indeed
[ChristineGolden] old man willow
[lunarising] thanks as always Demosthenes
Session Close: Sun Jul 07 09:42:01 2013

Hall of Fire chat log: Flotsam and Jetsam

Demosthenes — Sat, 13 Jul 2013 03:23:12 +0000

A couple of weekends back in the Hall of Fire, we discussed the events of the Two Towers chapter Flotsam and Jetsam, and the reunion of five of the Fellowship’s members. For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.

And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter: The Voice of Saruman.

Session Start: Sun Jun 30 07:20:31 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic today: Two Towers Bk 3 Ch 9: flotsam and jetsam | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] All right. Shall we get this dog and pony show started?
[sunshower] let’s
[PippinFTW] sure
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready when you are, Demosthenes.
[miriel] more like cat and bunny show
[Birdy] right on
[PippinFTW] hey Thorin!
[miriel] thanks PippinFTW
[Birdy] and birdy.. dog cat and birdy show…
[Thorin_Oakenshield] this is confusing!
[Demosthenes] Title observation! Flotsam and jetsam is a really clever name at a couple of levels.
[Birdy] AND bunny
[Susanita] and a pony for Dem
[miriel] yup
[PippinFTW] I never really understood the chapter name. What does it mean?
[sunshower] and…Sam’s not even in this chapter
[ChristineGolden] I thought so, too, Demosthenes.
[Goldberry] Yes
[Anameleth] I dont recall this chapter
[Demosthenes] Because really, it’s a catch-up chapter on … well … bits and pieces we’ve missed out on.
[sunshower] odds and ends PippinFTW
[Birdsong] oh my goodness im double logged in here…
[miriel] the stuff… that gets left on a beach after ebb and flood?
[PippinFTW] oh ok
[Thorin_Oakenshield] it means wreck.
[Susanita] flotsam and jetsam is what’s floating in the water after a shipwreck
[Demosthenes] And there’s the flood itself and the debris it brings
[ChristineGolden] It refers to the leftovers from a shipwreck. They’re legal terms.
[miriel] oooh, after a wreck
[Demosthenes] And there’s lots of little stuff in the chapter too.
[miriel] now that was news for me
[PippinFTW] ok thanks for the clarification!
[ChristineGolden] No, that’s not flotsam.
[selinahh] moi
[Thorin_Oakenshield] hi.
[Demosthenes] Flotsam is floating wreckage of a ship or its cargo.
[Demosthenes] Jetsam is part of a ship, its equipment, or its cargo that is purposefully cast overboard or jettisoned to lighten the load in time of distress and that sinks or is washed ashore.
[Demosthenes] I guess because it has been jettisoned.
[sunshower] flotsam, pipeweed
[Birdsong] awesome ive always heard of flotsam and jetsam but never knew them apart
[Demosthenes] What’s the jetsam? All the orcs Saruman abandons?
[ChristineGolden] No, that’s jetsam, Demosthenes.
[Susanita] they are often used together in the turn of phrase
[ChristineGolden] Flotsam is the ship and cargo in total; jetsam is what is deliberately cast overboard.
[Thorin_Oakenshield] confusing.
[PippinFTW] The jetsam probably refers to all the supplies that Merry and Pippin find
[Ringlordsander] Hi everyone!
[miriel] ! ok, now I will interpret the meaning of that chaptername very differently
[miriel] thanks
[Birdsong] hello Rig
[Goldberry] Hi
[sunshower] so Grima is jetsam?
[PippinFTW] hi ringlordsander!
[Birdsong] Ring*
[Esther] hello
[Thorin_Oakenshield] Hi alll!
[Demosthenes] Maybe Merry and Pippin are the jetsam?
[Thorin_Oakenshield] no i don’t think so.
[Ringlordsander] Merry&Pippin aren’t cast overboard…
[PippinFTW] I was thinking of the palantir, but that’s a different chapter
[Birdsong] maybe they are simly both different types of Sam…
[Pete_R] Jetsam: 1. Cargo or equipment thrown overboard to lighten a ship in distress. 2. Discarded cargo or equipment found washed ashore. See Usage Note at flotsam. 3. Discarded odds and ends.
[Demosthenes] ‘And now that the great ones have gone to discuss high matters,’ said Legolas, ‘the hunters can perhaps learn the answers to their own small riddles. We tracked you as far as the forest, but there are still many things that I should like to know the truth of.’
[Thorin_Oakenshield] wooo!
[PippinFTW] Could it be the palantir?
[Demosthenes] Or maybe it’s all of the companions left behind as Theoden and Gandy go off to discuss things.
[Thorin_Oakenshield] slow down!
[Demosthenes] Too early for that I think.
[Demosthenes] It’s not this chapter
[ChristineGolden] It must refer to the content of the chapter, which is mainly about the attack of the ents.
[Esther] I actually have never understood the name and the reason they use the name
[Ringlordsander] Wouldn’t it be the food that Saruman left in his storages when the Ents attacked Isengard?
[Ringlordsander] (the Jetsam)
[sunshower] odds and ends….wrapping up the tidbits of info
[Thorin_Oakenshield] yay.
[miriel] hi pete
[PippinFTW] But the food was left behind… not thrown out
[Demosthenes] I agree with sunshower. It’s mostly about tying up loose ends.
[Thorin_Oakenshield] yeah Ringlordsander!
[selinahh] ..
[Demosthenes] the companions catching up.
[Pete_R] hi, miriel, how are you? Hi, Demosthenes, and all
[Birdsong] hi Pete
[Demosthenes] ‘And there is a great deal, too, that we want to know about you ‘ said Merry. ‘We have learnt a few things through Treebeard, the Old Ent, but that is not nearly enough.’
[Demosthenes] ‘All in good time,’ said Legolas. ‘We were the hunters, and you should give an account of yourselves to us first.’
[PippinFTW] If it’s about tying up loose ends then the meaning is pretty clear
[Goldberry] Hi pete
[sunshower] I do like the way Legolas sort of separates *his* buddies from the rest for a minute
[PippinFTW] hi pete
[Pete_R] Hey, Goldberry and sunshower
[sunshower] hey Pete_R
[Esther] if this is about loose ends, what loose ends are they referring too
[sunshower] M&P in Fanghorn
[sunshower] where’s Saruman
[Susanita] M&P provide exposition
[Ringlordsander] Hmm. Thrown overboard.. Could it have something to do with the river Isen?
[PippinFTW] Esther the Company is just explaining what happened while they were separated
[Thorin_Oakenshield] bye all!
[Demosthenes] Esther: I think it’s how Merry and Pippin escaped from the orcs and got to Isengard.
[PippinFTW] leaving already thorin? bye!
[ChristineGolden] Could the flotsam be the ent attack and the jetsam, the aftermath?
[Goldberry] Cya thorin
[Esther] oh ok, yeah I’ve never understood that part of the story
[Demosthenes] oh .. and this.
[Demosthenes] Once Aragorn returns the two sheathed knives and the brooch from Pippin’s Lothlórien cloak, the hobbits start their tale:
[selinahh] :s
[Demosthenes] the little items that M&P lost along the way
[sunshower] important part: the returning of those knives
[Demosthenes] yes. seemingly tiny tho!
[sunshower] mm hmm
[PippinFTW] Dems so those are the jetsam?
[Pete_R] Flotsam and jetsam are also what’s left after a ship sinks, and the good ship Isengard sure did flounder.
[Demosthenes] PippinFTW: i reckon they could be.
[Anameleth] thats what I think
[Demosthenes] And a gesture of friendship too.
[Demosthenes] companionship.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Tolkien would title the entire chapter over the return of two knives.
[Goldberry] I find it interesting jrr tells it in a flashback
[sunshower] frankly I was amazed that Pip still had his pipe! and a spare!!
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: that does slow the action down, don’t you think?
[Goldberry] yes
[Ringlordsander] sunshower Were you? He’s a Hobbit after all…
[Demosthenes] It’s a more considered chapter after the pell mell pace of Helm’s Deep.
[PippinFTW] I do remember that one of the words were mentioned somewhere… but I forget where
[sunshower] it’s a breather chapter
[Esther] u guys are have more info from the book, I still have to read it so all I have for this scene is from the movie
[Demosthenes] sunshower: very much so!
[Susanita] everybody breathe!
[Pete_R] I think that because Isengard was flooded, Tolkien gave this a tongue-in-cheek nautical title.
[sunshower] yes Ringlordsander–they went thru Orc shakedown I think
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it’s a theory anyhow!
[ChristineGolden] I’d say using a flashback technique gives the chapter a reflective feeling, esp with the pipes.
[Demosthenes] Ah the pipes. Another gesture.
[Ringlordsander] sunshower. Why would the Orcs care if Pippin had a few pipes?
[PippinFTW] Tying up loose ends over teh pipes, I guess
[Demosthenes] And the hobbits serve lunch quite happily.
[PippinFTW] *the
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and his companions sat themselves down at one end of a long table, and the hobbits disappeared through one of the inner doors. ‘Store-room in there, and above the woods, luckily,’ said Pippin, as they came back laden with dishes, bowls, cups, knives, and food of various sorts.
[Demosthenes] and:
[Demosthenes] The three were soon busy with their meal; and the two hobbits, unabashed, set to a second time. ‘We must keep our guests company,’ they said.
[Demosthenes] ‘You are full of courtesy this morning,’ laughed Legolas. ‘But maybe. if we had not arrived, you would already have been keeping one another company again.’
[sunshower] hobbity
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but that’s just setting the scene.
[miriel] Ringlordsander they might not have known what they were: hobbits were the ones to start the tradition of smoking with pipes, so orcs might not have picked up the habit
[PippinFTW] I never understood how Pippin kept his pipes while in captivity. You’d think the Orcs would take their stuff, right?
[sunshower] I would think that, yes
[sunshower]
[ChristineGolden] No, they were undoubtedly told NOT to search the prisoners, only to disarm them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i found it interesting that the flashback is wrapped in a scene of homeliness. A very neat contrast.
[PippinFTW] But then again, the Orc didn’t know whether Pippin had the Ring
[Ringlordsander] I was more surprised the Orcs didn’t take the cloaks from Lothlorien..
[ChristineGolden] Saruman wouldn’t want them finding the ring.
[Esther] yeah that part was strange to me to PippinFTW how could they still have the pipes?
[Demosthenes] juxtaposition i guess.
[miriel] ChristineGolden good point
[Demosthenes] At a technical level.
[PippinFTW] Right, Christine. Good point
[ChristineGolden] Yes, esp among such chaos and filth, Demosthenes.
[Pete_R] Chris is right–they had specific orders not to spoil th prisonres
[miriel] Darkover
[sunshower] hi Darkover
[Darkover] Greetings, Miriel and sunshower!
[Darkover] Sorry I’m late, all.
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[PippinFTW] hi Darkover!
[Pete_R] Hi, Darkover
[Goldberry] Hi darkover
[Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes and PippinFTW
[Anameleth] hi darkover
[ChristineGolden] running later than usual today, Darkover; glad you made it.
[Darkover] Hi, Goldberry and Pete_R
[Goldberry]
[Darkover] You’re right, Chris, very sorry, nice to be here!
[sunshower] where/how did Aragorn get the knives?
[ChristineGolden] So, we have the description of a major battle told in flashback over the spoils of war.
[Demosthenes] the barrow blades? they were cast aside by the orcs at Amon Hen.
[ChristineGolden] He found them, sunshower.
[PippinFTW] sunshower they were dropped when Merry and Pippin were taken by the Orcs, when Boromir died
[Demosthenes] Who evidently feared them.
[miriel] yup
[sunshower] ok, so those were not *taken* off the Hobbits
[Demosthenes] No
[sunshower] gotcha
[Demosthenes] With M&P’s summary, what’s the important stuff we learn?
[miriel] also, they would not have carried the swords with them anyway — extra weight, and probably too small for an orc to wield
[ChristineGolden] Isengard is no longer a threat.
[sunshower] Saruman is there
[sunshower] Grima too
[PippinFTW] We learn all about how the Ents attacked Isengard
[Darkover] And what happened to Saruman
[miriel] ents are rather dangerous
[Susanita] don’t mess with Ents
[Goldberry] Lol
[Demosthenes] Is there one key thing?
[Demosthenes] Or just many things
[Darkover] an important lesson, Susanita
[PippinFTW] We learn about the Hourns
[Darkover] There is one thing, at the end of the chapter
[miriel] loads of important bits
[ChristineGolden] Gondor no longer has a knife at its back while facing Mordor.
[Darkover] no one understands the significance until later
[Darkover] the presence of Shire-grown pipeweed at Isengard
[Susanita] yep that’s it Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes that does become important later.
[Demosthenes] Again, a seemingly trivial detail.
[miriel] and indeed, Darkover, that is very intriguing
[ChristineGolden] It’s a hint, but not crucial to the chapter itself.
[Darkover] Of course, the most immediate consideration is Saruman
[Susanita] good wizard gone bad
[Demosthenes] ‘No,’ said Aragorn. ‘Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt.
[miriel] grima too is of importance, mostly as a start to the tie-up as to what happened to him (even if the end comes much much later)
[Anameleth] Yes, grima is key
[sunshower] Aragorn mentions that Gandalf hinted that the “old man” may have been Saruman
[Demosthenes] That’s an interesting thing that Aragorn says about Saruman
[Demosthenes] Perhaps he had met him personally?
[Darkover] Hadn’t thought of that, Demosthenes, but you’re probably right
[PippinFTW] Do we know for sure if they’ve met?
[Goldberry] Interesting thought…
[sunshower] think he heard about him from Elrond?
[Darkover] Maybe back when he was Thorongil?
[Ringlordsander] I don’t think Aragorn had met Saruman before. Why would he?
[PippinFTW] Until that point, at least
[PippinFTW] Maybe they were both in Rivendell at the same time
[Anameleth] Hmm
[Darkover] Surely Aragorn would have heard of Saruman, but I don’t believe it’s unreasonable to believe they met
[Demosthenes] Just the way that is phrased. it sounds like personal knowledge.
[Demosthenes] Not second-hand.
[Darkover] Aragorn has lived a long time for a Man, under many identities
[Darkover] Seems reasonable to me
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that too. Thoringil, for example.
[PippinFTW] Aragorn was living there while the White Council was held
[miriel] did aragorn ever visit Isengard?
[ChristineGolden] Does it make a difference if they met or not?
[Darkover] We don’t know for a fact that he did–or that he didn’t
[PippinFTW] I think so, miriel…
[miriel] did we not get a description of how people were seldom let in there
[Darkover] Not really, Chris, just intriguing
[Ringlordsander] PippinFTW Yes, but wasn’t Aragorn very young when the White Counsels were held?
[Anameleth] Would it have been possible he met saruman because of his connections to gondor?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: probably not. Aragorn’s respect for the Saruman of old appears very genuine though.
[Goldberry] 10 years old
[Pete_R] But if Aragorn had met Saruman before seeing the old man in Fangorn Forest, wouldn’t he have known whether it was him or not? Wizards change a *lot* more slowly than mortal men do, so he wouldn’t have changed that much.
[PippinFTW] Yes, Ringlord, but he was there for a long time. Maybe at one point?
[Darkover] Hmmm
[ChristineGolden] I believe it was a fleeting sighting, pete.
[miriel] I dunno if his description “The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt” is all that nice
[Darkover] But it is accurate, Miriel
[miriel] yes, but not very flattering
[Darkover] I doubt if Aragorn was in the mood to be flattering about Saruman
[miriel] true
[Demosthenes] Present Saruman seems much less grand though. Yes?
[ChristineGolden] the truth often isn’t flattering, miriel. It simply ‘is.’
[Darkover] Besides, it might be a warning as much as anything else
[Goldberry] Not after helms deep
[Darkover] Saruman is still dangerous, I mean
[Pete_R] Not sure how fleeting, tho, Chris. He was there long enough for them to speak to them. It’s not very clear, so who knows.
[miriel] indeed, he does dems
[Demosthenes] I don’t know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he has not much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean.
[PippinFTW] Maybe while Aragorn was in Rivendell he heard so much about Saruman, he felt like he knew him
[Darkover] Saruman has lost a lot of his power, I think, Demosthenes, but he is like a wounded beast–dangerous
[miriel] I was trying to make a point, that even the *old* saruman did not sound all that nice
[Ringlordsander] Darkover. Yes. Dangerous as a man. But he could not let nations rise and fall anymore, so he wasn’t very powerful anymore…
[Demosthenes] and: There was a pale figure hurrying away in and out of the shadows of the pillars, and it had nearly reached the stairs to the tower-door. But it was a near thing. Quickbeam was so hot after him, that he was within a step or two of being caught and strangled when he slipped in through the door.
[Darkover] Oh, sorry, Miriel, I thought you meant Aragorn wasn’t being nice!
[miriel] haha, nope
[ChristineGolden] me, too, miriel.
[Darkover] There is something in what you say, Ringlorsander
[Darkover] sorry, Ringlordsander
[Darkover] bye, anameleth
[sunshower] that sounds pretty weak…pale figuring hurrying
[Demosthenes] Yes it does
[sunshower] no power against the Ents?
[Demosthenes] Saruman is not simply retreating, he is in rout.
[ChristineGolden] I liked the description of the huorns. In the previous chapter, we only got glimpses and hints at what they were.
[Goldberry] Reminds me of descriptions of gollum
[PippinFTW] never thought of that, Goldberry
[Darkover] An ent might have been able to tear Saruman apart before the wizard could bewitch him.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: And more about /what/ they are.
[ChristineGolden] and what they can do.
[Ringlordsander] Goldberry. Who? Saruman? That kinda reminds me of Gollum as well. He was once a good wizard, just like Gollum was a good person. But because of the Ring, they both went evil…
[Goldberry] Yeah
[Pete_R] A number of people (including me) thought that OMW might be a huorn.
[selinahh] true
[Darkover] I think it is putting it too strongly to say that Gollum was ever a good person, Rindlordsander, there was just a time when he wasn’t a *bad* person.
[miriel] OMW?
[Darkover] But you are right, both turned to evil, although Saruman with less excuse, IMO
[ChristineGolden] I disagree. I believe Saruman always had the seeds of his downfall within him: pride, hubris, arrogance – call it what you will.
[PippinFTW] old man willow?
[miriel] aah
[miriel] oki
[PippinFTW] i think
[Demosthenes] christine: They seem fearful things. half-wild. or maybe even 3/4 wild?
[Pete_R] yes, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] Huorns. Not a pet.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] lol
[miriel] not a very nice pet at least
[sunshower] I do like that we get some info on who all was “stationed” at Isengard
[ChristineGolden] Well, if they are in the process of changing from ents to trees, that would involve more than mere physical changes.
[PippinFTW] Not an active pet, I guess
[Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. I think those ‘seeds of his downfall’ started to get within him at the moment he became obsessed with the Ring…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it seems to be a mental process too.
[miriel] I agree Ringlordsander
[Darkover] And Merry and Pippin were useful to the war effort–if not for those two hobbits, the Ents wouldn’t have joined the war, and taken Isengard
[Demosthenes] Which links with an overarching theme of LOTR — it’s about magic fading from the world.
[selinahh] yeah
[Demosthenes] In this way Huorns are less than Ents.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, or psychological – either works. But they seem to be in the process of losing the moral values of the ents, replacing it with anger.
[brennil] the Huorns were changing the Ents into trees? Did I here that right?
[Demosthenes] (although they may be fiercer)
[miriel] tolkien did love to write about the ending of things
[PippinFTW] But he never had it, Ringlord. That’s probably the biggest difference. If Saruman had the Ring, would he become like Gollum?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: gmta
[selinahh] …
[Goldberry] More like Sauron, pippin
[miriel] brennil: the hourns are ents, changing into trees
[Darkover] No, Gollum was too weak to wield the One Ring
[ChristineGolden] So, replacing positive values with negative ones would mean a moral degradation, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Saruman would have become like Sauron, I think
[brennil] thanks, miriel
[PippinFTW] Probably, Goldberry. Forgot about that option
[Ringlordsander] PippinFTW. With ‘because of the Ring’ I mean with Saruman that he would’ve been prepared to do anything to get in possession of the Ring when he would’ve gotten the chance..
[Darkover] I always got the impression that the huorns weren’t big on rational thought–they were like Ents turned animalistic
[ChristineGolden] which would be symbolized by the huorns becoming ‘lesser beings.’
[Demosthenes] it could do. Or amorality. Which is slightly different. and more appropriate to nature i think?
[selinahh] :syes he would
[PippinFTW] Oh, ok Ringlord
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, I don’t remember reading that huorns actually *become* ents and vice-versa. It seemed more that ents can become tree-ish, and huorns can wake up and become a little entish. Of course, I’m old, so my brain doesn’t work so well, any more.
[brennil] PippinFTW: perhaps. Maybe he wasn’t like gollum because he only thought of the ring and still had some of his own power
[ChristineGolden] Hmm, amorality is the absence of values – not sure anger would fit in that definition.
[ChristineGolden] That’s how they are described in this chapter, Pete.
[Darkover] I think Saruman’s biggest sin, where he really started to go wrong, was thinking that because he was one of “the Wise,” that meant he had a right to rule everybody, tell them how to live
[brennil] interesting
[Pete_R] If I ever meet an ent, I’ll ask him.
[Darkover] Just my opinion, but that is the impression I get.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[PippinFTW] Saruman of Many Colours, Darkover!
[PippinFTW]
[Darkover] Right, and the white (purity) was broken, PippinFTW!
[Goldberry] I think so too darkover
[ChristineGolden] Saruman’s biggest sin was Tolkien’s “favorite,” pride.
[Darkover] Thanks, Goldberry
[Pete_R] Saruman was prideful even before the istari were sent to ME, Darkover. It was hs downfall, eventually
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris and pete
[Pete_R] Pride goeth before destruction.
[thorin_oakenshield] hey guys and gals, i’m drawing Orthanc i’ll be back to show you, ok!
[PippinFTW] Probably too much pride because he is an Isatari, which goes back to the opinion of how superior he sees himself
[Darkover] and a haughty spirit before a fall
[miriel] Pete_R: true, he resented that gandalf was the one given a ring, not himself
[Pete_R] k, thorin_oakenshield
[ChristineGolden] He believe he could control the ring where others couldn’t because he was the smartest cookie in the box.
[Darkover] And lord knows, Saruman was haughty, although we have to wait for the next chapter to see how much.
[Ringlordsander] Pete_R. I think Saruman’s downfall was his desire to have the Ring for his own. Not his pride…
[Darkover] Hey, I had forgotten that fact, Miriel. You’re right!
[miriel] I wonder if his want to have a ring himself might have been triggered by that event
[PippinFTW] But Ringlord he thought he could get the Ring easily because of his immense power
[Susanita] next chapter is one of my faves in the whole trilogy
[Pete_R] True, Miriel, and Saruman also resented that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council. And that Gandalf got all the best chocolate.
[Darkover] Ringlordsander, Saruman thought he had a right to the Ring, and to wield it, to rule everyone. How is that not a blatant manifestation of pride?
[Darkover] Mine too, Susanita
[miriel] indeed pete
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[PippinFTW] haha Pete. true
[miriel] often those best suited for power are those who do not seek it
[Pete_R] I disagrre, Ringlordsander, he even told Gandalf that he and they were better than everyone else. besides the two factors that Miriel and I just mentioned.
[Darkover] I’ve never been sure about that, Miriel, but Saruman definitely overreached himself.
[Susanita] Saruman good at false flattery
[Demosthenes] Pride leads to complacency. and this is what brings down Saruman.
[PippinFTW] Saruman just didn’t know when to stop because he didn’t think that he needed to.
[brennil] agreed miriel
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes and Pippin
[Pete_R] Grat point, Miri
[Demosthenes] He’s too busy looking at the big picture that he doesn’t see his own footings being eaten away
[PippinFTW] thanks Darkover
[Demosthenes] Until it’s too late.
[Demosthenes] So I agree there, i think.
[brennil] he lost his moral compass, seen when he began cross-breeding orcs
[idril] sorry just got on where r we in the chapter?
[Demosthenes] brennil: oh. you put me in mind of something.
[Darkover] I think he lost it long before that, brennil, but that act definitely confirmed it!
[Demosthenes] And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking.
[ChristineGolden] supposedly, flotsam and jetsam.
[Demosthenes] but not particularly evil-looking
[Pete_R] dupes
[Darkover] So they were indeed Men, not orcs?
[sunshower] dunland men?
[Susanita] Aragorn talked about half-orcs
[Demosthenes] indeed. Dunlending I imagine.
[sunshower] eh
[brennil] yep, demosthenes, that’s definitely interesting
[Demosthenes] just “ordinary men”
[ChristineGolden] I thought it interesting that the Ents allowed the men to escape.
[Ringlordsander] brennil: Not only by cross-breeding Orcs, also by deciding to cut down parts of Fangorn Forest. He was so arrogant that he had forgotten about the power of the Ents. That was one of the many factors that led to his downfall…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: more “led astray” and “redeemable”? perhaps?
[Pete_R] The ents’ business was with Saryman and the orcs, I guess, Chris
[brennil] though, or is this just in the movie, he did breed half-orcs plus the dunlendings
[Goldberry] I didnt understand the half orcs
[Demosthenes] The ents and the huorns are certainly making moral judgements on culpability there.
[PippinFTW] Right, Ringlordsander! He didn’t even think that the Ents would rebel
[sunshower] half orc, half…..what?
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Fangorn’s fight was with the orcs only, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Well, why shouldn’t they? I like that about LotR–right is right, wrong is wrong
[sunshower] or are they orcish men?
[brennil] moral judgements are so confusing…
[Demosthenes] But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
[Demosthenes] ‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep.
[Pete_R] Good point, Ringlordsander
[Goldberry] Orcs= corrupted elves, half orc= ?
[Darkover] It is not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves, as Aragorn says elsewhere.
[Demosthenes] ^^ the “half-orcs”
[ChristineGolden] After the ents and huorns deal with the orcs, remember, they go home. Not to Gondor, etc., but home.
[Susanita] Aragorn talked about half-orcs
[sunshower] is half orc, like half elf? not the DNA but the ….something else?
[ChristineGolden] There was a discussion about it in Barliman’s the other night. Trust me, you don’t want to know what little canon exists on this one.
[Darkover] I think it is a matter of DNa, Sunshower, but you might be right.
[PippinFTW] Is a half-orc half orc, half Uruk-hai?
[Darkover] Half-orc, half-man, I think, PippinFTW
[ChristineGolden] Or possibly half-orc and half-elf.
[Ringlordsander] Darkover: but there’s no certainty about that point, mind you…
[brennil] the Uruk-hai were the half orcs, I’m pretty sure
[Demosthenes] sunshower: i don’t know. and like christine says, i don’t think there are any definitive answers. my opinion is that our protaganists ideas are unreliable at this point and they’re guessing.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, want to weigh in on this? You would know, if anyone does
[ChristineGolden] Now, wanna talk about how that happened?
[Susanita] I thought Uruk-Hai were basically orcs on steroids
[Pete_R] I think half man, half orc
[Susanita] figuratively speaking
[sunshower]
[Demosthenes] I don’t think we can take Aragorn’s statement at face value.
[brennil] why?
[Demosthenes] it’s a best guess
[Demosthenes] He’s not a wizard?
[Pete_R] yes, kinda, Susanita
[Demosthenes] I’d give Gandalf more credence.
[sunshower] so….orcish in look and manner, maybe?
[brennil] but he has seen a lot…
[brennil] so what do we know Gandalf said?
[Darkover] Probably. I doubt if even Aragorn has made an in-depth study of orcs and half-orcs
[Susanita] there were those creepy guys in Bree
[ChristineGolden] Orcs were originally corrupted elves which means they were capable of having sex. Shall I continue?
[Demosthenes] just like he is not versed in Ring-lore.
[selinahh] half orc, half elf?
[Darkover] Please, don’t, Chris, I agree, let’s talk about other aspects of the chapter.
[Demosthenes] Shall we move to Grima?
[Ringlordsander] Darkover: How could he have? Half-Orcs were bred by Saruman right? So Aragorn couldn’t have known their origins, because they were just created by the very person who is locked up in a tower and is not going to say a word…
[Demosthenes] And his appearance
[brennil] did Aragorn get much of his learning from Gandalf?
[sunshower] shabby
[Radagast] A half orc is a being that is half orc half human. These half orcs or “goblin men” were used to breed with orcs of various breeds to make the Uruk-hai
[ChristineGolden] So, there goes elrond’s wife and Galadriel’s daughter traveling between Rivendell and Lorien when she is waylaid by orcs. Shall I continue?
[Susanita] Tolkien never talked about sex
[PippinFTW] It says on the LOTR wiki that half-orcs were used to breed Uruk-hai
[Pete_R] from Tolkien Gateway: “The origin and nature of the half-orcs is unknown. Saruman’s servants also included creatures known as Goblin-men who appeared to blend the traits of Men and Orcs. It is unclear if these beings are related to or synonymous with the half-orcs”
[Susanita] or … other things
[Darkover] Yeah, Ringlordsander, I doubt if Saruman is giving interviews at this point
[ChristineGolden] “Breed” being the operative word.
[Susanita] yeah I think we get the point
[brennil] bye guys. nice discussion.
[Pete_R] Birdsong, are you a “Get Smart” fan?
[Birdsong] Pete_R, yep haha
[sunshower] “draggled rat”
[ChristineGolden] A detail in the chapter I found interesting:
[Pete_R] I should have said, “Don’t tell me that you’re a ‘Get Smart’ fan.”
[Darkover] yes, Chris?
[ChristineGolden] It was Pippin, not Merry, who commented about Theoden being a good and lordly man.
[Birdsong] in any case Im guilty as charged
[Darkover] Okay…?
[Goldberry] That is interesting…
[PippinFTW] Okay, Cristine. So…?
[Pete_R] “I *asked* you not to tell me that you’re a “Get Smart” fan!
[ChristineGolden] Well, it was Merry that ended up thinking of him as a father and who was with him when he died.
[Birdsong] lol in any case let’s stick to the topic [3
[Goldberry] Yeah
[Darkover] Pete:
[Demosthenes] Pippin is more outspoken than Merry. so in that sense it’s not surprising?
[Darkover] Yes, but both hobbits could admire him.
[Demosthenes] He shoots from the hip as it were.
[Susanita] Birdsong needs the cone of silence?
[Birdsong] hahaha
[ChristineGolden] I just thought it interesting, and wondered if perhaps it was deliberate on Tolkien’s part in light of later events.
[PippinFTW] I guess Merry was just in the right place at the right time
[Demosthenes] Merry is a bit more considered.
[PippinFTW] He did stay in Rohan, after all, so he became familiar with Theoden
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but most authors would have gone for the obvious: having Merry praise Theoden.
[Darkover] Which one mentioned that the King of the Mark was very polite? I always found that amusing.
[PippinFTW] Pippin
[ChristineGolden] Pippin, that’s the comment I meant.
[Darkover] Figures
[Demosthenes] that was the end of the last chapter
[PippinFTW] At the end of “the Road to Isengard”
[Demosthenes] The hobbits bowed low. ‘So that is the King of Rohan!’ said Pippin in an undertone. ‘A fine old fellow. Very polite.’
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Pete_R] Seemed strange that Pippin, not Merry, would say that
[PippinFTW] First impressions!
[ChristineGolden] Oh, sorry, I always read the last few pages of the last-read chapter to get my bearings. I must have mixed it up with this one in my head.
[selinahh]
[Demosthenes] Another strange thing, though really it shouldn’t be. Gandalf beats Grima to Isengard.
[Pete_R] Strange because?
[Darkover] Not really, IMO, Pete_R. Pippin is the younger one, probably less impressed by all the important folk he meets–Gandalf even warns him later, when they go to Gondor, against “hobbit pertness.”
[PippinFTW] Not too surprising since Gandalf has Shadowfax
[Birdsong] Maybe Grima dallied a bit somewhere?
[Goldberry] Shadowfax is pretty fast
[Demosthenes] I dunno. I mean yes, shadowfax.
[Darkover] I doubt if he dallied. I just think Shadowfax was faster.
[ChristineGolden] Well, Gandalf is riding Shadowfax and I assume Grima was given some old nag. The Riders of the Mark were hardly going to give Grima one of their best horses.
[Demosthenes] And maybe Grima was in no real hurry?
[Darkover] Maybe no horse would bear him, as Eomer suggested.
[Birdsong] It’s probably the case but I just wanted to throw in an extra option!
[Demosthenes] ie: reluctant to rejoin Saruman
[Pete_R] But Merry ended up staying with Theoden, Darkover, that’s why I thought it was odd that Tolkien would write it that way (not so much that Pippin might think it)
[PippinFTW] But you’d imagine that all Rohan horses were top-notch
[PippinFTW] Even the scrawny ones aren’t bad
[Pete_R] Grima was on that swayback horse.
[Darkover] That is a thought, Demosthenes. I mean, Grima had nowhere else to go, but I doubt if he wanted to report his failures to Saruman/
[ChristineGolden] No, I think Grima would have beat a path to Saruman – remember, he didn’t know about the defeat at Helms Deep.
[Darkover] Well, Pete, as Chris observed, Tolkien didn’t always go for the obvious.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and when he gets there he says “all my messages are useless now”
[PippinFTW] But maybe Grima spent a lot of time thinking whether to tell Saruman in the first place
[Pete_R] I don’t think tha Grima wanted to be in Rohan *or* in Ortanc, at the time
[Darkover] Right. What if Saruman said, so *you* are useless now?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but Grima’s a coward; he wouldn’t want to be out in the wild, unprotected. He would seek safety.
[Demosthenes] ‘”Let me go away!” he whined. “Let me go away! My messages are useless now.”
[Demosthenes] ‘”They are indeed,” said Treebeard. “But you have only two choices: to stay with me until Gandalf and your master arrive; or to cross the water. Which will you have?”
[Pete_R] Right, Chris. Like going to the dentist, even though you don’t wnt to
[Darkover] Didn’t Tolkien state elsewhere that Grima ran into the Nazgul along the way, or am I thinking of another occasion?
[sunshower] Grima shoulda stayed
[Darkover] If so, Wormtongue might have wanted to reach Saruman, in the hope the wizard could protect him.
[PippinFTW] Or maybe Grima spent a lot of time avoiding Rohirrim, so if he did have a path, he couldn’t use it in case he crosses paths with people
[ChristineGolden] Not in this chapter, Darkover, although it may be mentioned elsewhere.
[Pete_R] He did write that somewhere, Darkover.
[Goldberry] I always thought saruman might have had a kind of hold on grima
[idril] that was a different time, Darkover
[Darkover] If Grima was the type to stay, Sunshower, I doubt if he would have turned traitor in the first place.
[Pete_R] It’s not in LOTR, though
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes. that is in Hunt for the Ring. but happened far earlier than these events.
[Darkover] Thank you, idril
[Goldberry] Like mental hold
[Darkover] Sorry, my mistake then.
[ChristineGolden] The strong-willed can always control the weak, Goldberry.
[Demosthenes] I wonder where Wormtongue would have gone. Had Treebeard not forced him to the choice.
[idril] no prob. i think it was when the nazgul were telling him to tell Saruman that he should mind his own business about the Dark Lord’s affairs. i think.
[Darkover] It wasn’t as if anyone wanted grima at this point
[Pete_R] Good point, Demz. I have no idea
[Demosthenes] I dunno either. Bree?
[Demosthenes] far, far away?
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone really ever want him, Darkover?
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Susanita] good point CG
[Darkover] Certainly not Eowyn!
[Pete_R] Prett far away, on a swayback horse, with no survival skills is Bree
[Goldberry] Saruman must have wanted him once
[Goldberry] To use him
[Yavanna] Nahh he didnt really want him, as he found him
[ChristineGolden] Saruman may have found him useful when he was a counselor to Theoden, Goldberry, but that’s probably as far as it went.
[Goldberry] As a?
[Yavanna] Useful servant that was stupid enough to believe he would grt power and follow orders
[Demosthenes] What is Grima’s use to Saruman now?
[Susanita] not much
[Demosthenes] ‘”Well, he has gone in,” he said when he returned. “I saw him crawling up the steps like a draggled rat. There is someone in the tower still: a hand came out and pulled him in. So there he is, and I hope the welcome is to his liking.
[Goldberry] Nothing
[Darkover] Being his footman, I guess, as Gandalf says in the next chapter
[Susanita] no more Rohirrim intel
[sunshower] grima’s new job: whipping post
[TolkienGirl] Guys? What are we talking about?
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] Grima mostly.
[Susanita] we are talking about the chapter in TTT
[Yavanna] Sunshower: or commanding the orc pooper scooper
[Susanita] “Flotsam and Jetsam”
[Darkover] If I can shut up and stay on topic
[idril] lol Yavanna
[TolkienGirl] Oh okay.
[FreeLOTR] which chapter?
[Goldberry] Lol darkover
[Demosthenes] ‘He was,’ said Aragorn; ‘and also Saruman’s spy and servant in Rohan. Fate has not been kinder to him than he deserves. The sight of the ruin of all that he thought so strong and magnificent must have been almost punishment enough. But I fear that worse awaits him.’
[Susanita] “Flotsam and Jetsam”
[Susanita] it’s in the topic
[FreeLOTR] love that one
[Demosthenes] I think that Aragorn has a lesser opinion of Grima than of Saruman.
[Demosthenes] That’s not very flattering at all.
[idril] bye guys! good discussions
[Darkover] Well, Saruman did abuse his power more, IMO
[Darkover] bye, idril
[Yavanna] Yeah, well at least saruman has a little dignity
[idril] Bye!
[Susanita] Grima is your classic sycophant (sp?)
[FreeLOTR] Grima was almost like an animal
[Darkover] Yeah, Susanita, he is
[Darkover] hence the nickname, “wormtongue
[Demosthenes] I imagine the tongue of the serpent tells big big fibs
[ChristineGolden] Reminded me of Peter Pettigrew in HP.
[Birdsong] I think the title also impies that he is persuasive
[Yavanna] Oh i thought wormtongue came fftom the fact that everything that came out of his mouth was as low as dirt
[Susanita] or Crabb and Goyle
[Darkover] maybe also, his nickname indicated he was like a dragon, when it came to speech that deceives and ensnares
[Birdsong] implies* ].[
[Demosthenes] (could even be a ref to Paradise Lost)
[TolkienGirl] Bye.
[Darkover] bye, TolkienGirl
[Birdsong] Bye, TG
[Yavanna] Byee!
[ChristineGolden] Or it could be a play on words, Yavanna: wormtongue and wormwood.
[Susanita] man with no eyebrows
[Goldberry] Worming his way out of trouble
[Yavanna] Yes goldberry
[Demosthenes] Did we talk about how even Ents can get angry?
[Darkover] There are a lot of possibilities in that nickname
[ChristineGolden] Ah! good one, Demosthenes!
[Susanita] and how!
[Demosthenes] Like, really furious.
[Darkover] It takes awhile, but when they are roused, they are fearsome indeed
[Susanita] Don’t Mess with Entsas
[Demosthenes] An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.
[Goldberry] Kinda berserk
[Demosthenes] One of them, Beechbone I think he was called, a very tall handsome Ent, got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight.
[Demosthenes] ‘That sent them mad. I thought that they had been really roused before; but I was wrong. I saw what it was like at last. It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them.
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: beserk Ents. Yes.
[Yavanna] I wonder what would happen in a fight between them and their long lost ent women??
[Darkover] That sounds too “smackdown” for me
[ChristineGolden] The ent husbands would have lost the fight, of course.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Demosthenes] It also shows us how Orthanc is different
[Yavanna] Hahaha christinegolden. Exactly
[Demosthenes] Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them. It is very smooth and hard. Some wizardry is in it, perhaps, older and stronger than Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Numenorean wizardry.
[Goldberry] Ah
[ChristineGolden] I think it’s an interesting contrast that the stonework of Saruman, the great wizard, can be destroyed by the ents, but…
[Demosthenes] Same as the first wall of Minas Tirith.
[Darkover] Good magic, not bad
[ChristineGolden] Orthanc, built by the Numenoreans cannot even be marred.
[Demosthenes] Unless the earth itself was to twist, i think.
[Demosthenes] I think that’s what’s said later about MT.
[Yavanna] Is the same true for Barad-dur, i wonder?
[Goldberry] What was it that galadriel said about good&bad magic?
[Birdsong] The stone itself losing virtue as virtue is lost?
[Darkover] Something about how Men seemed to use the same word to describe the power of the Enemy
[Demosthenes] Yavanna: I don’t think so. though the foundations seem linked to the One Ring.
[Goldberry] Oh yes
[Darkover] So she wasn’t sure how to answer the question of whether or not the Elves used “magic.”
[Goldberry] Thats right, i remember now
[Darkover] I think to Elves, especially the older ones, magic is as natural as breathing, or using tools is to Men
[Demosthenes] In some ways magic seems to be a technique. I guess that’s what we have here.
[Darkover] So they are puzzled when someone who doesn’t have that experience, requires an explanation.
[Yavanna] Yes
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps what may have once simply been extraordinary engineering skills later appeared to be magic, like people in the Dark Ages looking back at the remnants of Rome.
[Darkover] Also a possibility, Chris
[Goldberry] Yes
[Demosthenes] Mmmmm. Apparently roman concrete was very different. And better. Damascene steel.
[sunshower] Any standout Tolkien lines in this chapter for anyone?
[Demosthenes] Lots of examples of that sort of thing in history.
[Yavanna] Well yes, butthis implies the same thing, that magic used to be natural and easy, but for new generations, its impossibly hard
[Demosthenes] Mayan/Incan stonework.
[Demosthenes] Like with the dwarves of Durin, many techniques that seem to be superior have been lost to time.
[Goldberry] Sunshower: havnt read it in a while…
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I still think that there was real magic in ME, things like Gandalf using his staff to “permit a little light.”
[Yavanna] Stonehenge, the pyramids, easter island, etc
[Demosthenes] We see a lot of that when we arrive in Gondor.
[Darkover] “It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, and when they are cheating one another.” That linfe of Aragorn stands out for me, Sunshower.
[Susanita] I kinda think of Elf magic as super heightened awareness
[ChristineGolden] The mirror of Galadriel and the Girdle of Melian.
[Darkover] Or a super-kinship with nature, Susanita
[Demosthenes] And Orthanc is an example. A marvellous construction that people look at and go “how did they do that?”
[Susanita] that too
[Darkover] Maybe both
[ChristineGolden] The phial Galadriel gave to Frodo, “to be a light when all others go out.”
[Pete_R] Gotta go. Bye, all. Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Those things are becoming fewer though. Like the ents? Rarer, maybe.
[Susanita] I love that phial
[Goldberry] Me too, bye!
[Darkover] bye, Pete_R!
[Darkover] see you next time, Goldberry!
[Yavanna] Are we talking about quotes from the whole trilogy, or from flotsam and jetsam?
[Goldberry] Cya all!
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps it’s another difference between men and elves.
[Susanita] mostly just the chapter……
[ChristineGolden] I think F&J went out the window awhile ago, Yavanna.
[Yavanna] Bye goldberry!
[Yavanna] Hahaha
[Susanita] but we sometimes get further afield as the convo continues
[Demosthenes] I think we’ve covered most of the chapter?
[Darkover] I think so
[Demosthenes] Points we’ve missed?
[Demosthenes] Did we talk the longbottom leaf over enough?
[sunshower] “We understand it all perfectly now”–Gimli
[Susanita] I liked the “Strider was always here” bit
[Susanita] as an aside
[Darkover] Only Aragorn picked up on the significance of finding that leaf at Isengard.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I’d like to raise a point about that longbottom leaf when the regular discussion is over, Demosthenes, if you don’t mind.
[Demosthenes] suse: oh yes. i did like that too. like i mentioned early on, there is a feeling of (hobbity) homlinessto thgis chapter.
[Yavanna] What? That the scouring of the shire had begun?
[Darkover] He decided to mention it to Gandalf, and I think that is why–many chapters later, when the wizard and the hobbits are traveling back to the Shire–Gandalf mentions that things might not be what the hobbits expect.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: sure.
[Demosthenes] ‘All except one thing,’ said Aragorn: ‘leaf from the Southfarthing in Isengard. The more I consider it, the more curious I find it. I have never been in Isengard, but I have journeyed in this land, and I know well the empty countries that lie between Rohan and the Shire. Neither goods nor folk have passed that way for many a long year, not openly.
[Demosthenes] Now this is somewhere Aragorn /does/ have expertise.
[Darkover] And, like a King, he is thinking ahead, and about the meaning of facts.
[Demosthenes] ‘Ah well, whatever evil was afoot is over now, I hope; or else it is beyond our reach at present,’ said Aragorn. ‘Yet I think I shall mention it to Gandalf, small matter though it may seem among his great affairs.’
[ChristineGolden] But he’s not really thinking ahead because events are already happening in the Shire, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] darkover. sorry.
[Demosthenes] And this. Is that forshadowing For Gandalf leaving the hobbits just before the scouring?
[Susanita] I always wonder about G leaving them to that
[Darkover] I would say so, Demosthenes. I did, in fact, a moment ago.
[Demosthenes] It’s a thoery!
[ChristineGolden] No, I think it’s a device for the remaining Fellowship to catch up with each other and fill in the blanks for the reader.
[Susanita] but we’ll get there some time next year
[Demosthenes] you beat me too the punch
[Yavanna] How did i not notice this foreshadowing??
[Darkover] GMTA
[ChristineGolden] After all, they could hardly sit around and chitchat with the “high and mighty” there.
[Darkover] Well, this chapter does cover a lot more immediate things, Yavanna. It’s easy to do
[LadyInvisible] Hey Susanita, I remember you from a long time here
[Demosthenes] And there are little things dropped along the way that get picked up later
[ChristineGolden] So, get rid of Gandalf, Theoden, Eomer, etc., and let the old friends catch up.
[Susanita] likewise
[LadyInvisible] Hey yhere Darkover
[Yavanna] And possibly its just so unnatural to imagine anything bad happening to the shire
[sunshower] more F&J demz?
[LadyInvisible] Hey Lady
[Demosthenes] yeah
[Demosthenes] there’s rubbish everywhere in this chapter
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but Tolkien does that throughout the book, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Probably, the Shire does seem like the safest place in M-E. It is so conventional.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think the title makes us think of it more here.
[Darkover] But of course, that doesn’t mean bad things can’t happen.
[Susanita] and sheltered … almost cloistered
[Yavanna] What about the different hobbit calanders?
[Demosthenes] it’s a wink and a nudge, perhaps.
[Darkover] I always thought the title of this chapter referred to Merry and Pippin, as much as anything.
[Birdsong] lgbt Hobbits might not be so safe there, then
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Demosthenes, I think we’re also supposed to think about wreckage and destruction, not just the cargo, odds and ends.
[Lady_Celebrian] ].]
[Darkover] They were the “flotsam and jetsam” of the battle–carried along by the current, but not unimportant.
[Darkover] And of course, this is a title that ties up a lot of loose ends.
[ChristineGolden] That is an [ahem] very good point, Darkover.
[Yavanna] I thought it meant the turning of the tides between Gandalf and saruman
[ChristineGolden] That doesn’t come until the next chapter, Yavanna.
[Demosthenes] That is indeed next chapter. And that might be a good note to conclude on?
[Yavanna] Oh oops :s
* Birdsong chirps inside of Susanita ‘s pockets
[sunshower] yep
[Darkover] Sounds good. I think we’ve discussed everything.
[Demosthenes] Sweet. Thanks for a great chat everyone.
Session Close: Sun Jun 30 09:52:37 2013

Hall of Fire topic this weekend: the Voice of Saruman

Demosthenes — Sat, 13 Jul 2013 00:54:50 +0000

This weekend, Hall of Fire returns to The Lord of the Rings as we continue our chapter discussions of The Two Towers and journey with Gandalf, Aragorn, Theoden and his riders to the very door of Orthanc.

‘I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.’ He raised his hand and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ‘Saruman, your staff is broken.’ There was a crack and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet.

Book III, Chapter X: The Voice of Saruman

This chapter begins with our heroes entering the ruins of Isengard; Orthanc tall, undamaged and unassailable in the centre. Yet it ends with the ents watching over as fallen Saruman.

How many changes take place between these two points? How great are they? And how much is revealed that will influence the future course of the War of the Ring?

Join us in the Hall of Fire on Saturday July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be another great discussion as we continue our Lord of the Rings read-through in The Hall of Fire.

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San Diego Comic-Con & More on TORn TUESDAY Weekly Webcast!

Cliff Quickbeam Broadway — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 23:56:46 +0000

Today join us again for our weekly webcast TORn TUESDAY, as we our big presence at the upcoming San Diego Comic-Con as we present all the juicy dish on THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG!

Let’s have a closer look at what brings such huge interest and different fandoms together at this amazing show — and prep you for what we will reveal during our presentation! Bring your questions and comments to the chat!

We launch TORn TUESDAY every week at 5:00PM Pacific: brought to you by host Clifford “Quickbeam” Broadway and producer Justin “I Make Excellent T-shirts” Sewell — Our innovative live show includes worldwide fans who join us on the Live Event page with a built-in IRC chat (affectionately known as Barliman’s Chat room). Be part of the fun and mischief every week as we broadcast *live* from Meltdown Comics in the heart of Hollywood, U.S.A.!

WE APOLOGIZE that there is no available archive of this particular installment on our YouTube channel —- it was a “sneak preview” after all!

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