A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. Akallbeth, The Silmarillion.

Akallabêth: The Downfall of Númenor

Documented in The Silmarillion, Akallabêth charts the rise and fall of the Dúnedain of Numenor. Rewarded with a bounteous land of their own for their forefathers’ sacrifices in the dreadful wars against Morgoth, after centuries of peace and propsperity the anscestors of the Númenoreans proceed to throw it all away in a fit of hubris and misplaced envy of the immortality of the elves of Valinor and of the Valar themselves.

Not even the most earnest entreaties of elven emissaries sent by Manwë himself seems able to dissuade the Númenoreans that Valinor itself is the source immortality.

And when the last and mightiest Númenorean king Ar-Pharazôn brings Sauron to the island as his prisoner and hostage, it’s not long before the Dark Lord seduces the majority of the populace to the open worship of Morgoth and has the king plotting war upon the Undying Lands.

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

The Silmarillion: Akallabêth
Unfinished Tales: The Druedain

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‘Go to sleep!’ said Merry. ‘You’ll get information enough, sooner or later. My dear Pippin, no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness; but is this the time, I ask you?’

‘All right! What’s the harm in my telling you what I should like: a look at that stone? I know I can’t have it, with old Gandalf sitting on it, like a hen on an egg. But it doesn’t help much to get no more from you than a you-can’t-have-it so-go-to-sleep!’

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter XI: The Palantìr

When Wormtongue hurls a black orb at Saruman from the upper levels of Orthanc, the first to respond is Pippin. Gandalf rescues it from him, but the strange object piques the Hobbit’s curiosity.

Later that night when Gandalf, Theoden and the remainder of the company rest, Pippin finds a way to steal the orb from the wizard’s grasp and peer into its dark depths. His reckless toying with the orb, an ancient Palantìr that allows communication over incredible distances, rapidly puts him in dreadful danger — caught in the grasp of the Dark Lord himself. Only Sauron’s greedy desire to bring the Hobbit to Barad-dur for direct questioning saves the Quest.

Gandalf quickly pulls the truth of the encounter from the terrified Hobbit, then as one of the Nine flies over their camp leaves the Palantìr with Aragorn and rides with Pippin for Minas Tirith.

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

TTT Bk III, Ch XI: The Palantìr
Unfinished Tales: The Palantìr

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‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us. A Shadow of the Past, The Lord of the Rings.

Aspects of heroism within the Fellowship

What do the Fellowship have to tell us about heroism? How does the heroism of Aragorn differ from the bravery of Boromir? Is Gandalf’s sacrifice at the Bridge of Khazad-dum the single-most selfless act of the entire Quest? Is Sam’s steadfastness actually that different from Frodo’s determination to not give in?

And if the bravery of each of the hobbits in the face of increasing adversity and danger show us that heroism need not have a great lineage, then what do Legolas and Gimli have to teach us?

Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.

Some suggested reading:

FOTR Bk I, Ch 11: A Knife in the Dark
TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields

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I think the simple ‘rustic’ love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero’s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the ‘longing for Elves’, and sheer beauty. Letter #131, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

The hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings

We know from his letter to Milton Waldman that Tolkien regarded Sam as the chief hero of the tale. But why? What is it that makes him Tolkien’s hero? Do you even agree with Tolkien’s appraisal?

More generally, what actions or traits create a hero anyway?

The Greek and Latin etymology of the word suggest a hero is a protector, or a defender.

So is it all about sheer physical strength and courage in battle such as Boromir exhibited? Warrior brawn? But what of the inspirational guidance that Aragorn and Gandalf show? And how much of a role must adversity play? And are quieter, less flashy traits important ingredients? Traits such as steadfastness and loyalty to a seemingly impossible cause or task?

Join us in the href=”http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat”>The Hall of FireHall of Fire on Saturday July 20 from 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be another great discussion.

Some suggested reading:

TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields

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And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.

And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we’ll be discussing the next chapter: The Voice of Saruman.

‘I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.’ He raised his hand and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ‘Saruman, your staff is broken.’ There was a crack and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet.

Book III, Chapter X: The Voice of Saruman

This chapter begins with our heroes entering the ruins of Isengard; Orthanc tall, undamaged and unassailable in the centre. Yet it ends with the ents watching over as fallen Saruman.

How many changes take place between these two points? How great are they? And how much is revealed that will influence the future course of the War of the Ring?

Join us in the Hall of Fire on Saturday July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be another great discussion as we continue our Lord of the Rings read-through in The Hall of Fire.

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“…the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?”

Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.

Stewards of Middle-earth. Who? What? Why?

Many characters seem to fill the role of stewards in Tolkien’s Middle-earth. Some are obvious: rulers such as Denethor and Theoden, members of the council of the wise like Elrond and Garadriel, the Istari and the Valar.

Treebeard, and even Tom Bombadil and the Entwives can also be examined in the same light. Others such as Samwise and Eowyn are more subtly portrayed.

But what are the defining traits of a steward in Tolkien’s milieu?

And, apart from a great love for their individual ‘stewardships’, what do they have in common? What traits set them apart from others?

Was Sauron ever a steward? More, what exactly is the distinction between stewarding something and seeking to dominate it, and what can we learn from the example of Saruman about just how easy (or hard) it is to tip from one into the other?

These are just a few of the things we’ll discuss this weekend on Saturday July 6 at 6.00pm EDT in The Hall of Fire.

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Throughout the first half of The Two Towers, Tolkien weaves together two threads of narrative. On one hand we have Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and their efforts to find the hobbits, and then to assist the Rohirrim. On the other, Merry and Pippin’s captivity among the Uruk-hai, their escape and their burgeoning friendship with the Ents of Fangorn.

Flotsam and Jetsam finally reunites the two groups and reveals what happened after the Ents marched on Isengard.

Though Isengard be strong and hard
As cold as stone and bare as bone
We go, we go, we go to war
To hew the stone and break the door!

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter IX: Flotsam and Jetsam

Flotsam and Jetsam is a chapter of big events, and small, yet important, gestures of friendship.

Pippin and Merry describe the destruction of the ring of Isengard, Saruman’s narrow escape to the safety of the black pillar of Orthanc, and the departure of many Huorns to wreak revenge against Saruman’s army of orcs and Dunlendings in the south.

Aragorn returns the barrow blades of the two Hobbits, and Pippin’s Lorien brooch — sacrificed during their captivity as a sign for any rescuers. Pippin offers Gimli a spare pipe that he has carried with him since leaving The Shire, and the five companions relate their adventures since that fateful day on Amon Hen.

Tiny gestures of companionship and camaraderie — flotsam and jetsam against the greater events of the War of the Ring — but is that not the essence of hobbitry?

Join us in the Hall of Fire this Saturday June 29 at 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be a great discussion as we return to our Lord of the Rings read-through.

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For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. Plus, as a reminder: this weekend (Saturday June 29 at 6pm EDT) the Hall of Fire topic is the next chapter of The Two Towers: Book III Chapter IX – Flotsam and Jetsam. See you then!

Session Start: Sun Jun 16 07:15:44 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to “The HOF topic for today: Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard. | General TORn chat thataway! click ] #theonering.net”
[Demosthenes] Okay, let’s get this dog an pony show under way.
[Demosthenes] Other folks can catch up.
[miriel] I wonder, did they have nice maps?
[Jenniearcheo] Did who?
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to notice that — at a meta-level — this chapter is a lot of description bookended by two pieces of dialogue?
[miriel] for the road to isengard
[Turin] for middle earth
[sunshower] Gimil waxes poetic?
[Xanaseb] hmm Mithrandir, nope
[Jenniearcheo] They do go into rather a lot of geographical detail
[Mithrandir] you should get it
[Demosthenes] sunshower: that’s the frontispiece.
[Mithrandir] it’s an excellent help
[sunshower] yep
[Demosthenes] and the hobbits are the endpiece
[Jenniearcheo] But it seems mostly to illustrate the ruin of the place
[Jenniearcheo] Why wouldn’t they walk on the road down by the riverbed?
[ChristineGolden] I thought it went beyond geographical detail; much of it was used for effect.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Before and after
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what sort of effect? mood-setting?
[Demosthenes] Something else?
[sunshower] the…what’s next? effect
[dzeno] anyone played ROTK on PS2 or PC? the road to Isengard was amazing there
[Mithrandir] YES dzeno
[Raurenkili] I did
[Xanaseb] dzeno
[Mithrandir] :/
[Xanaseb] kind of off topic
[Gothmog] true was awesome
[Jenniearcheo] But kind of on
[ChristineGolden] Not just mood-setting
[Mithrandir] In fact i just re-finished the crack of doom level
[Demosthenes] I’d like to focus on the book chapter if we could please.
[Mithrandir] just a few minutes ago lol
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: what else then?
[ChristineGolden] There’s almost a sense of claustrophobia and the sense of the trees closing in on them.
[Mithrandir] Ok! So we start. By all means! The first eve question is! Who do you think lead the army of Isengard to battle???
[Turin] sauman?
[Mithrandir] no
[ChristineGolden] As though, “this is the road you must take to your doom, whatever it may be.”
[Xanaseb] lol
[Xanaseb] *true
[Jenniearcheo] They seem to shun the road for a while
[Demosthenes] A sense of … horror?
[Demosthenes] like … lovecraft might do?
[ChristineGolden] I don’t mean “road” literally, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure. They get back on it the next day, for some reason
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they literally do
[ChristineGolden] No, not horror, “doom” in the sense that Tolkien so often uses it.
[Demosthenes] doom?
[Jenniearcheo] They do seem creeped out by the dry river bed
[ChristineGolden] fate, destiny
[Xanaseb] the topic is ‘Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard.’
[Xanaseb]
[ChristineGolden] “all roads lead to Isengard, whether they want to go there or not.”
[Xanaseb] hehe, quite symbolic that quote, I’d say
[Mith] and that means we cant discuss the aftermath of the battle at helms deep??
[sunshower] hmmm I more thought the detours were to avoid the group seeing some behind the scenes things
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. The road follows the river and then breaks straight towards Isengard
[Demosthenes] mithrandir: we’ll come to that soon.
[Susanita] hello Radagast
[Radagast] hello
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: a wyrd then?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, that’s a good way to describe it.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that they’re not already creeped out by the forest
[Demosthenes] like theoden says … ‘Nay!’ said Théoden. ‘In the dark hour before dawn I doubted, but we will not part now. I will come with you, if that is your counsel.’
[miriel] all roads lead there, it is both very nicely located geographically, but also.. had it not fallen, it would have changed the outcome of the war considerably
[Oakenshield] Good evening little masters
[Raurenkili] lol
[dzeno] did anyone besides Gandalf knew the true nature oh huorns on that road?
[Xanaseb] yes, very much so miri
[Demosthenes] There’s also a feeling of mythic in the descriptions that plays into that.
[Mithrandir] all roads lead there because it’s close to the gap of rohan and that’s the only plain pass through the misty mountains
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Mithrandir] my opinion
[Demosthenes] and even in gandalf’s riddling, I guess.
[Xanaseb] hey Lurtz
[sunshower] hi Darkover
[ChristineGolden] oh, definitely, even more than Tolkien’s usual religious symbolism.
[miriel] Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel!
[Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover:
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, running late today.
[Demosthenes] It;’s heroic symbolism though. Like the mound on the eyot at the Fords of the Isen.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris. I get here ASAP after work.
[Demosthenes] Not religious symbolism.
[ChristineGolden]
[Darkover] sorry, what is heroic symbolism?
[Jenniearcheo] Then there’s the hike through the forest
[Jenniearcheo] Symbolizing what?
[Darkover] or I should say, what is a symbol of being heroic?
[ChristineGolden] Like teutonic mythology, Darkover .
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the heavy description going on throughout the chapter. The burial mounds, the forest.
[Lasak] hmm?
[Darkover] Right, Demothenes, thank you.
[Turin] they just have to get to isengard. Tolkien love talking about travel
[sunshower] stone, water and wood
[Jenniearcheo] The description of Isengard and Orthanc, before and after
[Jenniearcheo] And the comparison of Orthanc to a wannabe Barad Dur
[Mithrandir] i never really understood what was that black mist that the company encountered on their way to isengard
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, a description of it as one
[Jenniearcheo] Wasn’t that the trees passing them on the way home?
[miriel] I grieved the loss of the trees, they sounded very nice in the early descriptions
[sunshower] I thought the same Jenniearcheo
[Mithrandir] not what i think.
[Demosthenes] Mithrandir: I believe the mist waqs the huorns returning to Fangorn in the night.
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien used geographic and natural descriptions, Turin, to underscore his themes.
[Mithrandir] actually in the morning they see that the bodies of the orcs are gone
[Mithrandir] and that happens after that mist
[Darkover] IMO, that was Tolkien’s idea of “magic,” Chris–the natural world
[Turin] yah i see
[Darkover] I’ve always wondered if the huorns snacked on the orcs.
[Jenniearcheo] I thought they buried them in a mass grave
[Xanaseb] poor trees
[Darkover] I mean, those bodies had to go *somewhere*
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and what Saruman does is a revolt against that natural “magic”.
[Jenniearcheo] On which no grass would later grow
[Mithrandir] no they buried only the men of rohan
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well put!
[ChristineGolden] I would mostly agree with that, Darkover, but he does also occasionally draw upon the supernatural, such as the Huorns.
[Mithrandir] the bodies of the orcs were too much for burial
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the people buried the men of rohan
[Xanaseb] Darkover, fangorn is =huge- and old
[miriel] it was unclear, no-one entered the possible mound to find out
[Xanaseb] bodies would have been dispersed
[Xanaseb] etc.
[miriel] no pun intended
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had the . . . hang on
[Darkover] and scary, Xanaseb
[Xanaseb] or maybe even swallowed up
[Demosthenes] miriel: but nothing would grow there.
[Xanaseb] hm, true
[Demosthenes] Which has some similarities to the place where the fell beast is burned after the pelennor.
[Mithrandir] they left the bodies of the orcs on the ground because gandalf told them to.
[Mithrandir] dont u remember?
[miriel] true, might have been that the decomposing stuff had some very bad levels of metal etc in them
[Xanaseb] I think it’s just the power of Fangorn
[ChristineGolden] Demosthenes is right, there was a dike/ditch where the orcs were supposedly disposed of.
[Turin] thats the best answer
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, and then the huorns walked by and suddenly a huge pit had been delved into the earth and over it stones were piled into a hill
[Jenniearcheo] Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there
[Xanaseb] huorns are nooot to be messed with, clearly
[Darkover] I wouldn’t care to meet a huorn in a dark forest.
[Darkover] agreed, Xanaseb
[Mithrandir] i dont really understand the difference between a huorn and a regular tree. we know what ents are.
[Mithrandir] but huorns.. :s
[miriel] tolkien plays with very common fears there really: moving trees, and half-aware trees
[Mithrandir] i’ve read 100s of times the descriptions but never understood
[sunshower] warrior-trees?
[Darkover] Huorns are very old trees, or tree-like beings, that tend to be bad-hearted
[Radagast] “Is there some mightier sage, of whom we have yet to learn?”-Theoden. Even though we know of course it wasn’t the work of Wizards was Theoden perhaps in the back of his mind beginning to think The Brown Wizard who he learned of maybe long ago as a child in song had a part in this deed of making the forest
[Jenniearcheo] After the battle at the ford, Gandalf gathered all the scattered folk and had them bury the dead of Rohan at the ford
[Darkover] because, as I understand it, they are sick of trees being abused and misused.
[Mithrandir] and here’s the quote by gandalf. “let the orcs lie” said gandalf. Morning might bring new counsel.
[Xanaseb] true. it’s one of those things that I can’t really understand tbh.. why fear trees?
[Jessy] Even if the Huorns had eaten the orc bodies, what of their armor and weapons? Something had to be buried.
[Lasak] Treas in the night is scary
[Lasak] trees
[Darkover] Walking trees who can tear you apart? I would fear them too, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] The trees were grey and menacing, and a shadow or a mist was about them. The ends of their long sweeping boughs hung down like searching fingers, their roots stood up from the ground like the limbs of strange monsters, and dark caverns opened beneath them.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Mithrandir. Because the Huorns took care of it later
[Xanaseb] yes, but I mean normal trees too.. they’re portrayed as quite angry
[Demosthenes] No, they’re not “normal” trees at all.
[ChristineGolden] Dark forests are almost a primal fear. Even Tacitus mentioned them in his writings about the Teutonic tribes.
[Darkover] poor Gimli almost freaked at one point, not that I blamed him.
[sunshower] even see what a tree broken tree branch can do to a house?
[sunshower] – that 1st tree!
[Xanaseb] still… fearing trees? that takes quite something… like.. Fangorn
[Lasak] Wasn’t this the chapter where gimli and legolas made the deal about visiting fangorn and the caves
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[sunshower] yes Lasak
[Mithrandir] Xana, have u seen snow white and the 7 dwarves by Disney?
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: armies do very poorly in forests usually. The Romans were cut to pieces in Teutoburg Forest for example.
[Darkover] and either Pippin or Merry remarks later that the Ents can tear stone as if it is paper. That is an ent, not a huorn, but presumably huorns are very dangerous too.
[Xanaseb] Mith, nope
[ChristineGolden] Well, you can hardly blame Gimli, Darkover, the way everyone keeps lecturing him about his axe whenever they come near a tree.
[Mithrandir] remember when she escapes into the forest?
[Demosthenes] They couldn’t execute with their normal discipline.
[Jess10] So what’s going on?
[Mithrandir] ow u should watch it then!
[Mithrandir] there are scary trees there
[Darkover] Have you ever seen how tree roots can work their way even through stone? Imagine that speeded up, in a time-lapse photography sort of way.
[mib_2hse03] Tolkien based the huorns on the army in Macbeth that camouflaged themselves as a forest.
[mib_2hse03] trees with swords…
[Demosthenes] Yes he did, mib.
[Xanaseb] inspired by it at least mib
[Jess10] Is someone supposed to be talking or something?
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[Phil] night everyone
[ChristineGolden] We need to talk sometime, Demosthenes.
[Xanaseb] wouldn’t say ‘based’ but inspired definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Jess10: Demosthenes is moderating the chat
[Jenniearcheo] he poses Questions and we discuss it
[Jess10] Ok, I’m waiting
[Mithrandir] i wish Puma was here! We really need her! ))
[Susanita] we’re here
[sunshower] oh, we’ll be OK
[Jessy] Tolkien said that he was disappointed that the trees in Macbeth weren’t actually walking, just branches being carried.
[Demosthenes] Hi Jess10. We operate as an open, although moderated chat. You’re free to jump in and add your thoughts on the topic.
[Jenniearcheo] which is currently tree strength. or sommat
[Xanaseb] in any case
[sunshower] goodness gracious
[Xanaseb] where were we?
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the ents that we see at the beginning of the chapter had come to herd the huorns back to Fangorn?
[Demosthenes] Why are they there?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, probably
[Phil] i would say never underestimate the power of nature
[Xanaseb] Dems, maybe maybe
[Xanaseb] but I don’t think the Ents were *that* active
[Jenniearcheo] Going about their herding business
[Darkover] Probably. To take charge of them, at least.
[ChristineGolden] Probably, Demosthenes, although I never thought of that before.
[sunshower] I thought those came to clean up at Helms Deep Dems
[ChristineGolden] Good ideea.
[Xanaseb] they were getting slow and what not
[Lasak] Maybe
[Demosthenes] They must be there for /some/ reason
[Jenniearcheo] They only appear once our company has passed through
[Jess10] I think maybe so, it’s hard to say.
[Lasak] ents is treeherds
[Demosthenes] They clear up the orcs at least. And then disappear back to the north.
[miriel] I think the ents ensured that the hourns did not attack the wrong survivors
[mib_2hse03] I think the ents let the huorns do what they want, hence treebeard saying that they (the huorns) had business with the orcs
[Lasak] so that is their only important task in middle earth, so most likely they would follow the huorns
[Demosthenes] miriel: that could be another reason, yes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf didn’t seem worried
[Jenniearcheo] He led them right through
[Jess10] It makes sense to me!
[Demosthenes] jennie: he did. Maybe there were some ents there already?
[Jenniearcheo] Sneeeaking
[Xanaseb] lol
[ChristineGolden] Why would Gandalf be worried? He already knew what was going on, unlike the others.
[Demosthenes] Or maybe Huorns can differentiate.
[Xanaseb] and hi wanderer
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they didn’t make themselves known until the riders were through. Otherwise, . . . well, panicked horses in the woods . . . not so good
[Demosthenes] ‘It is hot in here,’ said Legolas to Gandalf. ‘I feel a great wrath about me. Do you not feel the air throb in your ears?’
[Demosthenes] ‘Yes,’ said Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] true that
[Xanaseb] as I said, extremely angry forest
[wanderer] hi!
[Xanaseb] more so than usual
[Lasak] Well if you think that if the huorns behaved like the ones in the old forrest there should be some reason for gandalf to be afraid
[Demosthenes] also:
[Darkover] Hello, wanderer
[Demosthenes] ‘Not of all that go on two legs,’ said Legolas. ‘There I think you are wrong. It is Orcs that they hate. For they do not belong here and know little of Elves and Men. Far away are the valleys where they sprang. From the deep dales of Fangorn, Gimli, that is whence they come, I guess.’
[Jenniearcheo] But specifically anti-orc
[ChristineGolden] It would have been an oppressive heat which would reinforce the sense of the forest closing in on/crowding around them.
[Darkover] At least the huorns would draw that distinction
[Jess10] Reminds me of Gimli in the extended scene from the movie lol
[Demosthenes] Yes, Jennie. Quickbeam did mention some sections of forest thyat had been hewed to the ground by orcs.
[Darkover] Orcs are not the greenest people in M-E, and I suspect the forest would remember that.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. I’m sure they don’t even recycle their beer cans
[Demosthenes] Also, I am minded — and this comes later in the next chapter — that the Ents at Isengard allow the (most of the) men inside the ring to escape.
[Darkover] jennie, lol
[ChristineGolden] And in a previous chapter, Fangorn speaks very harshly about the orcs, so no love lost there.
[Demosthenes] Neither the Huorns, nor the ents, engage in wanton retaliation?
[Demosthenes] Is that an important distinction?
[Xanaseb] maybe Dems, true.
[mib_2hse03] in the departure of boromir, the uruks are described as deliberately going out of there way to destroy trees etc
[ChristineGolden] Well, they’re supposed to be part of the good guys, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Treebeard was going to kill M&P if they turned out to be orcs
[Darkover] Probably. I would hate for either ents or huorns to hold a grudge.
[Demosthenes] jennie: how much do you think this extends to Huorns?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure they’re your thinking man, treewise
[Demosthenes] This ability to discrimminate/select.
[Jenniearcheo] Thus the need for herding
[Demosthenes] This is true!
[Demosthenes] They seem like … angsty teenagers?
[Jenniearcheo] More footsoldier than officer
[Lasak] I think huorns would go against everyone who do them wrong
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s a bit harsh.
[sunshower] not so much
[Jenniearcheo] I think huorns would go against anyone the ents pointed them at
[Jessy] The trees in the Old Forest seemed very huorn-ish, yet they went after hobbits as well.
[Jenniearcheo] Exactly
[Lasak] As seen in the old forrest when the hobbits disturbed them. That must be called huorns
[ChristineGolden] Well, they sat back for a long time watching the orcs desecrate the forests of ME before they did anything, so I don’t think they were too quick to anger.
[mib_2hse03] and old man willow as well
[sunshower] hmm Tom has alot to saw about the trees I think
[Darkover] they aren’t hasty, Chris
[Demosthenes] Is this chapter really about the outcome of trying to control/subjugate nature? What do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] Not without a moot and a decision
[Jenniearcheo] I think the Old Forest guys were freelance
[ChristineGolden] I think this chapter has several themes, Demosthenes, but that’s one of them.
[Demosthenes] lol @ freelance.
[Jessy] Demosthenes: but would the forest have retaliated without the Ents to guide it?
[Darkover] I think Tolkien believed that humans should work with nature, that is an underlying theme in all his work, but IMO this chapter is not devoted exclusively to that idea.
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that it is about controlling nature, more the reasons why we shouldn’t industrialises
[ChristineGolden] agreed
[Jess10] Very interesting notations…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there’s a lot of compare and contrast going on. The isen used to be bright and noisy but theoden says it is now sad and mournful. And then we have the before and after of the vale of isengard. the weedy plain.
[Jenniearcheo] I think that was automatic, Lasak
[mib_2hse03] the downside of industrialisation? why we shouldn’t have a mind of gears
[Jenniearcheo] Not to mention the pits and all
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Demosthenes, the slow decay and wilful destruction are both prominent in this chapter.
[Jenniearcheo] And the smoke
[Darkover] and Theoden blames Saruman in particular, the wizard whom Treebeard said had a mind of metal.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the creepy red-nailed hand
[Demosthenes] Yeah. That was strange. Why is the hand painted red suddenly?
[ChristineGolden] blood
[Demosthenes] I’m still puzzled at what that meant. and who might have done it.
[mib_2hse03] orcs of sauron?
[Lasak] I think saruman did it
[Demosthenes] The blood of orcs? Or was it done by the orcs?
[Jenniearcheo] Did it actually change color as Gandalf rode by, or was that a description of the way it always had been compared to now
[Lasak] he talked about how a white cloak could be colored
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of it as “blood dripping from the hands of the quilty,” aka Saruman.
[Darkover] I agree with Chris
[ChristineGolden] It’s symbolic.
[Demosthenes] Now Gandalf rode to the great pillar of the Hand, and passed it: and as he did so the Riders saw to their wonder that the Hand appeared no longer white. It was stained as with dried blood; and looking closer they perceived that its nails were red.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s not clear whether it was white a moment ago or not
[Lasak] It’s dried
[Jenniearcheo] Or just that they’re noticing now
[Darkover] or how neatly, if neat at all, the nails were painted
[mib_2hse03] the idea of seeing what it once was, to what it is now?
[Jenniearcheo] Or if there’s a clear top coat
[Jess10] Hmm…I don’t remember this at all. How interesting.
[Darkover] maybe it got bloody in the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: when the ents threw down the walls?
[Jenniearcheo] It seems to be a sign pointing the way to Isengard. Was it always there?
[mib_2hse03] the ents don’t seem the type to use orc blood to paint hands…
[ChristineGolden] No, Jen, it was white as they approached.
[Jenniearcheo] What, just the nails on a sign?
[Darkover] Possibly, Demosthenes
[mib_2hse03] the huorns though
[Lasak] I still think saruman did, or made someone do it.
[Radagast] The True White Wizard using his power to turn the hand red to show he had at last come to deal with Saruman the fallen Wizard
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think saruman must have put it up when he started getting delusions.
[Darkover] why would he do that, Lasak?
[Demosthenes] That’s what i always felt.
[Darkover] Ok, maybe Radagast is right. Possible.
[Lasak] to show he wasn’t white anymore, that white could change
[sunshower] stained
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . why would it suddenly change as Gandalf rode by? Or is it . . . a “your staff is broken” sort of thing?
[Lasak] for Gandalf
[Demosthenes] A stain on white normally indicates corruption.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf riding by revealed it for the not-pure-white that it really was. Like Saruman himself
[Demosthenes] Symbolically, i mean.
[mib_2hse03] the white light may be broken etc,”many colours”?
[Darkover] Which could be how it is actually perceived, instead of what Saruman–if he put it there–had in mind.
[ChristineGolden] “Suddenly a tall pillar loomed up before them. It was black; and set upon it was a great stone, carved and painted in the likness of a long White Hand.”
[Darkover] or maybe it is orc blood, splattered in battle, after all.
[mib_2hse03] so surely a multi-coloured hand for Saruman of many colours
[Darkover] That is why I wondered how neat, if neat it was, the color/blood appeared on the hand.
[Jenniearcheo] I can’t remember, are Saruman’s robes dingy in the next chapter? No longer white?
[Demosthenes] It’s surely a sign that Saruman has fallen.
[Lasak] isn’t his clothes colored in the next chapter
[Jessy] The red nails show the blood on Saruman’s hands for the war he waged against Rohan?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Jessy. Perhaps that
[Susanita] works for me
[mib_2hse03] sarumans cloak is still changing colour in “the voice of saruman”
[Demosthenes] They looked up, astonished, for they had heard no sound of his coming; and they saw a figure standing at the rail, looking down upon them: an old man, swathed in a great cloak, the colour of which was not easy to tell, for it changed if they moved their eyes or if he stirred.
[Jenniearcheo] Right. Two chapters ahead. Not one
[Demosthenes] That’s from Voice of Saruman
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it’s broader than that. Saruman had the blood of more than the Rohirrim on his hands.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: of ents … of the dunlendings too. he deceived them.
[Jenniearcheo] Bloody mischief in general
[Demosthenes] And even of the orcs who he enslaved.
[Jenniearcheo] And anyone he sent the uruks after
[Demosthenes] Command responsibility and all that.
[mib_2hse03] I doesn’t look like sarumans cloak changes colour after his staff is broken so I don’t think the hand is changed red by gandalf
[ChristineGolden] I would, mib.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps it’s more revealed than actually changed
[Demosthenes] I think it was the Ents. But … i admit it’s ambiguous.
[Darkover] I very much doubt if Gandalf would bother with changing the color of the hand. He is too busy to engage in symbolism.
[Jenniearcheo] Ents with a bloody paint pot?
[mib_2hse03] I don’t think that ents would do it, huorns maybe but not ents
[Demosthenes] jennie: they were really really angry.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Lasak] I don’t see who should have done it
[Fingolfin] He probably did it himself to show he was now ruthless and in league with the enemy
[ChristineGolden] No, as Gandalf the White passes, the false facade of Saruman is stripped away.
[Lasak] YEah, I agree with you fing
[Demosthenes] Especially after … beechbone? … got fried.
[Jenniearcheo] yes. I agree with Chris
[mib_2hse03] maybe the orcs of sauron before they ran away
[miriel] it sounds like the “pureness” got washed away, to me
[sunshower] M&P, tagging things?
[mib_2hse03] the orcs always hated the Uruk-Hai
[sunshower] O.O
[Jessy] Tolkien capitalized the name White Hand when he describes the pillar. That would seem to make it more than symbolic that the hand is no longer white…
[Jenniearcheo] tikatikatika shhhhh
[Demosthenes] A different tack: is Gimli’s monologue about Aglarond the longest one he makes in the entire book?
[mib_2hse03] if it was pureness washing away, wouldn’t sarumans cloak change?
[Lasak] yeah..
[sunshower] long , it certainly is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Demosthenes, but it was certainly one of his most poetic.
[Darkover] Certainly it is the most poetic speech gimli makes, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. I was sorry JRD didn’t get to describe it
[mib_2hse03] no, the poem in the fellowship of the ring on moria, 2 1/2 pages
[miriel] but his cloak was already not-white, at that point, right?
[miriel] saruman of the many colours
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, true. He does go into the Durin poem
[Lasak] It was i think
[Jenniearcheo] But this was something he was coming up with himself. From his own heart
[Lasak] That’s why i belive saruman changed the sign too
[Demosthenes] We see Tolkien write a lot about the beauty of nature … but … usually that’s forests. Here we see a different beauty … but still nature.
[mib_2hse03] it was multi-coloured, surely it would go dull
[Darkover] Gimli’s speech even impresses Legolas
[miriel] dems: the one about what he feared before starting the trip (in farewell to lorien) is loooong
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. So much that he agrees to a visit
[Jess10] Yes
[ChristineGolden] I think he described the beauties of the pastoral Shire pretty well, too, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.
[Demosthenes] (just a part of it)
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure the Rohan Tourism Board would be glad of this chapter. They should set up a dwarven resort
[sunshower] lol
[mib_2hse03] if I remember correctly, doesn’t he start a colony of dwarves there?
[Jess10] Funny
[Demosthenes] jennie: And there’s another comparison to the orcs (and Saruman) … Legolas says he fears that the dwarves would ruin all … but Gimli insists they would only work to enhance or bring forth the natural beauty of the caves.
[Demosthenes] mib: yes, he does.
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice that this is the chapter in which a new ‘fellowship’ is forged?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Dems
[Darkover] Allies are made, Chris, if that is what you mean.
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure there’s even gold or jewels there (or surely the Rohirrim would have mined it?)
[ChristineGolden] More than allies, Darkover.
[sunshower] he did mention jewels I think
[miriel] indeed, legolas was afraid the dwarves would mine the place for the precious gems
[mib_2hse03] gems, crystals and precious ores
[Jenniearcheo] And Gimli said they’d only dig to enhance the caves
[Jessy] Do the Rohirrim mine? I don’t remember anything that suggests that they do.
[Darkover] As if Legolas’ own dad, Thranduil, wasn’t a big believer in gems and gold.
[Jenniearcheo] And light them up for effect
[Lasak] I don’t think so
[Demosthenes] Maybe the men of this land are wise to say little: one family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they made.’
[Demosthenes] ‘No, you do not understand,’ said Gimli. ‘No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin’s race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there.
[miriel] lol, true Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think Legolas has inherited his father’s acquisitiveness
[Demosthenes] jennie: i don’t think so either.
[Fingolfin] The people of Rohan were probably not skilled enough or had the best equipment for mining precious gems and metals
[miriel] I wonder if this means that the things that could be found were of little value?
[Demosthenes] Fingolfin: that is possible. Although they did repair the Hornburg.
[mib_2hse03] sounds like galadrial was right when she says that gold and riches will have no sway over gimli
[Darkover] and Dwarves were supposed to be the experts on mining, anyway.
[sunshower] oh, I had a question! —- is Legolas’s talk about paying to not go , or get out of, the caves one of the few (or only) times M-e folks talk about paying for things?
[sunshower] (besides the ponies in Bree)
[miriel] since he specifies that “not if” diamonds and gold could be gotten
[Demosthenes] sunshower: there is currency of a sort in Bree (silver pennies)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, it seems the dwarves were responsible for the mining and most of the metalwork of ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Presumably all the commerce in Esgaroth happens with some sort of coinage
[mib_2hse03] I assume that the rohirrim would use Anglo-Saxon style coinage
[miriel] I guess silver worked as a currency quite well
[Darkover] I’ve always gotten the impression such things were left mostly to them, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Smaug probably isn’t lying on bars
[Fingolfin] Or trading and bartering
[Jessy] Oh, this was lovely, but I have to go. Thanks all!
[miriel] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Jessy
[Darkover] bye, jessy, see you next time!
[Demosthenes] I think sunshower is right tho — it’s one of the few instances where the concept of paying is directly mentioned (as opposed to implied)
[sunshower] I was just a bit surprised to hear an Elf say something like that
[mib_2hse03] do elves use currency or do we think that they use a barter system? maybe similar to utopia
[Demosthenes] The other thing is that elf and dwarf now seem able to appreciate each other’s viewpoints — even if they find them confusing.
[miriel] (off topic, but I wonder if the recovery of the gold in Esgaroth led to inflation….)
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes, and IMO, one of the more important aspects of this chapter.
[mib_2hse03] although that could just be legolas and gimli
[miriel] very important point dems
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure if they’re at “appreciation” yet, Demosthenes, but they’ve reached the point of mutual respect for differing opinions.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that is well put
[Jenniearcheo] They do agree to see each other’s sights
[Jenniearcheo] After it’s all done
[miriel] i think it started in Lorien. but Fighting together for a common goal probably helped
[sunshower] enough appreciation to agree to a sight-seeing trip later, maybe
[Demosthenes] ‘You move me, Gimli,’ said Legolas. ‘I have never heard you speak like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves. Come! Let us make this bargain-if we both return safe out of the perils that await us, we will journey for a while together. You shall visit Fangorn with me, and then I will come with you to see Helm’s Deep.’
[ChristineGolden] Not a meeting of the minds, but an opening of them.
[Jenniearcheo] But they’re not quite at the point of going into the door-building business together
[Demosthenes] An offer.
[mib_2hse03] the two races never really got on, in the silmarillion there is something on the two races never working together
[Demosthenes] It is a bit like Celebrimbor and Narvi.
[Darkover] which is why the friendship of Legolas and Gimli was so remarkable, Mib
[miriel] an offer, that gimli accepts, albeit he might not have been too happy about the Fangorn part
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not be the way of return that I should choose,’ said Gimli. ‘But I will endure Fangorn, if I have your promise to come back to the caves and share their wonder with me.’
[mib_2hse03] imagine If gimli ever entered mirkwood….
[ChristineGolden] There was an estrangement, mib. At one time, many sects of the two were closely involved .
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor and Narvi seem an unusual exception too. The other is probably Eol and the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.
[Demosthenes] But Eol was strange for an elf.
[Jenniearcheo] By this time, wasn’t Mirkwood relatively Mirk-free?
[miriel] mib: he must have, since he travelled from the lonely mountain to rivendell
[ChristineGolden] Eol was strange, period.
[mib_2hse03] the black elf…
[sunshower] kidnapper
[Demosthenes] What /is/ unique is that Legolas was a Telerin (Sindarin) elf, not a Noldo.
[ChristineGolden] No, Jennie, that’s why Legolas went to Rivendell.
[Jenniearcheo] okay
[sunshower] I thought he went to report on Gollum
[mib_2hse03] both
[Fingolfin] Same here
[Demosthenes] Celebrimbor was a Noldor … and a craftsman. Legolas isn’t anything like that. Yet here he is extending a hand of friendship.
[Darkover] that too, but Legolas had more than one thing to report.
[mib_2hse03] although with a war from dol guldor I think mirkwood would have got much worse
[sunshower] that Gimli and Legolas thing–may speak alot about Tolkien’s views (which is another conversation)
[Fingolfin] Especially since orcs were able to free gollum from the wood elves
[Demosthenes] Another thought, which brings us to the conversation at the end of the chapter, to what extent are the Hobbits responsible for this friendship?
[Demosthenes] In some ways, Merry and Pippin seem like catalysts to me.
[idril] Gollum was pretty eager to leave the elves… until the orcs took him to Barad-dur later on
[ChristineGolden] Directly? I’d say, not much, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ‘And what about your companions? What about Legolas and me?’ cried Gimli, unable to contain himself longer. ‘You rascals, you woolly-footed and wool-pated truants! A fine hunt you have led us!
[sunshower] the capture of M and P, yes–brought people together
[Lasak] I think thhe hobbits ar very resposible, they are the ones who bring them together
[mib_2hse03] they helped forge the fellowship and lead (not in a good way) to the three hunters which brought legolas and gimli closer
[Demosthenes] ‘You speak for me, Gimli,’ laughed Legolas. ‘Though I would sooner learn how they came by the wine.’
[Darkover] the quest brought them together, Lasak
[miriel] I think the fact that they have friends in common certainly helped
[Jenniearcheo] Well, comparing the relationship now to the way it was the day they left Rivendell . .. they’ve all learned a lot about each other
[Darkover] That is another good thing–hobbits are good and finding and providing food and drink.
[idril] and they had a common goal/enemy
[Darkover] at, not and
[ChristineGolden] If you mean because the hobbits brought them together, yes. If you mean they personally contributed to the friendship, no.
[mib_2hse03] although neither mind that their fathers nearly fought each other in the hobbit….
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that would be a catalyst, i think. By definition.
[ChristineGolden] I think the friendship that formed between the two would be more like going on a long road trip with an acquaintance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps the way hobbits get along with nearly everybody helped Legolas and Gimli reevaluate their ancestral enmity
[ChristineGolden] By the time you get there, you’ll either really dislike or like each other.
[Darkover] True, Chris, hadn’t thought of it that way.
[Demosthenes] In some ways Merry and Pippin were the purpose of the roadtrip
[miriel] also, the hobbits have a very strong “we” feeling, which leads to the other half of the group being “the rest” …in combination with aragorn and boromir being men, the lone dwarf and lone elf must have felt some kind of companionship. Also remember they were both from east of the mountains
[ChristineGolden] Legolas and Gimli do travel together as a pair, esp since Gimli can’t ride a horse.
[sunshower] that particular part of the trip, yes
[sunshower] it was a bit of a detour
[Demosthenes] miriel: that’s a good point too.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, now I’m picturing Legolas riding the motorcycle on our hypothetical road trip, with Gimli in a side car, both with helmets and goggles.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but the hobbits didn’t do anything directly to encourage the friendship: that’s my point.
[sunshower] no, Jenniearcheo!
[idril] lol Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Fingolfin] Because of the ring that frodo received from bilbo legolas and gimli were able to spend months together and bond through dangers and time together even thoughth
[Darkover] and Merry and Pippin chanting, “Road trip! Road trip!”
[miriel] Jenniiiee (lol)
[Fingolfin] They were opposites
[ChristineGolden] and legolas telling gimli to watch that axe around the tires?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Demosthenes] And somehow, the Hobbits are able to charm everyone with just a few words.
[sunshower] and the promise of food
[Demosthenes] ‘Welcome, my lords, to Isengard!’ he said. ‘We are the doorwardens. Meriadoc, son of Saradoc is my name; and my companion, who, alas! is overcome with weariness’ – here he gave the other a dig with his foot – ‘is Peregrin, son of Paladin, of the house of Took.
[Demosthenes] Far in the North is our home. The Lord Saruman is within; but at the moment he is closeted with one Wormtongue, or doubtless he would be here to welcome such honourable guests.’
[Darkover] Maybe because hobbits so seldom have ulterior motives, Demosthenes. Hobbits generally get along with each other, and seem to want other people to get along.
[Fingolfin] I think it was because of the lightness of heart the hobbits possessed
[miriel] very clear that they speak in a more “proper” fashion than is natural to them, sounds a bit silly
[Jenniearcheo] Similar to Thorin’s parting words to Bilbo about appreciating hearth and home. Perhaps M and P cause people to see what’s really important
[Jenniearcheo] And that racial grudges ain’t it
[Xanaseb] proper fashion indeed
[Darkover] What amuses me is how they speak to King Theoden as if he is just an elder, or the Mayor of the Shire–someone they understand is important, but who they are not awed by.
[Demosthenes] Fancy words for a hobbit?
[sunshower] quite
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the quest itself does that, Jenny, stripping things down to their real value.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! they’re very polite, but not obsequieos.
[sunshower] though it sounds like Gandalf had done some coaching on this
[Demosthenes] I misspelled that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they have rather met a lot of important people by now.
[Demosthenes] Compare with the sliminess of Wormtongue.
[miriel] dems: you should have said naught, and I would never have noticed
[Demosthenes] seeya Raurenkili!
[Darkover] Yes, Jennie, but it seems to me that hobbits tend to a natural, if polite, equality with most everyone.
[ChristineGolden] Merry always sounded like he was putting on his “company manners” to me.
[Demosthenes] Merry bowed; and Pippin got up and bowed low. ‘You are gracious, lord; or I hope that I may so take your words,’ he said. ‘And here is another marvel! I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits.’
[Demosthenes] Merry is able to, I guess, elevate his speech a few notches.
[ChristineGolden] I like this particular scene because it plants the seeds for the later attachment formed between Merry and Theoden.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: it does that very effectively.
[Demosthenes] And also provides a compare/contrast for Denethor.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[sunshower] oh yeah that is does
[Darkover] Agreed, Demosthenes, I was just thinking that.
[miriel] must be very nice to have encountered someone that knew at least a little about them, probably warmed them up a great deal
[miriel] towards the king
[Darkover] and Theoden *was* polite
[ChristineGolden] for both Denethor and his relationship with Merry’s counterpart, Pippin. A study in contrasts.
[Jenniearcheo] Including an invitation to tell his stories
[Darkover] he expressed an interest in them.
[Demosthenes] I wonder how much of Theoden’s attitude is natural personality, and how mcuh might be Gandalf’s influence?
[Demosthenes] ‘I will come with you,’ said Théoden. ‘Farewell, my hobbits! May we meet again in my house! There you shall sit beside me and tell me all that your hearts desire: the deeds of your grandsires, as far as you can reckon them; and we will speak also of Tobold the Old and his herb-lore. Farewell!’
[ChristineGolden] Theoden’s attitude toward Merry, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] Probably some of both. If Gandalf believes these small folk are important, then by now, Theoden probably realizes they are.
[idril] yes Denethor’s obvious disdain for Faramir (and his blame of him killing his wife) really shows how Theoden reacts to deaths in his life
[sunshower] Thoeden who took in his neice and nephew? probably the *real* him
[Demosthenes] It doesn’t seem “mere” politeness.
[Jenniearcheo] Some, I think, is mere fascination
[Darkover] Plus, I think the Rohirrim are less formal and full of themselves than are the nobility of Gondor.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Because of his knowledge of history?
[ChristineGolden] I think the two just naturally clicked, as people sometimes do.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yet in some ways their respect for the heroic outweighs that of Gondor.
[Darkover] Good point, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Because he’s a legendary Halfling. One of those weird things of ancient fairytales like the ents, but who is willing to chat
[mib_d3m6e1] hi all guys
[Demosthenes] Eorl the Young is a figure of … myth almost. Helm Hammerhand is larger than life.
[Lasak] hi mib
[Darkover] True, Jennie, who wouldn’t be interested under those circumstances.
[Demosthenes] You don’t get that sense so much from Gondor where history is just history?
[Demosthenes] “just”
[sunshower] arrogance vs. humilty?
[ChristineGolden] faded glory
[idril] good summary, sunshower
[Dwyna] growth vs stagnation
[Jenniearcheo] The confidence of stone walls vs. the practical knowledge that you have to keep your weapons sharp and your horses hale?
[Demosthenes] Something like that.
[Darkover] or maybe just that the Rohirrim are a younger culture than the Gondorians, and so manifest their beliefs and history in different ways.
[Jenniearcheo] Despite the Hornburg, they live in the exposed town on the hilltop
[Dwyna] Rohan still has a sense of change¦ Gondor is stagnant¦ dying?
[ChristineGolden] You have Theoden riding out to do battle; Denethor sends out others to do his fighting.
[Demosthenes] I think gondor is weighed down by its history. Rohan is buoyed up by theirs … and that accounts for Thoeden’s attitude to new things? Here, it’s hobbits and ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Edoras isn’t as impregnable as Minas Tirith. And certainly the outlying villages aren’t
[Demosthenes] It’s a theory anyhow.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, to be fair, remember Denethor’s “I can still wield a brand”?
[Lasak] Intresting
[Lasak] haven’t thought about this before
[sunshower] Gondor has to uphold tradition?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting, Dems
[sunshower] Rohan’s still in the making?
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, but not in battle, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: A bit like Mervyn Peake’s Gormenghast if you’ve ever read that.
[Darkover] That’s the idea behind this weekly discussion, Lasak–sometimes we learn other POVs
* sunshower says whosit’s what’sit?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Gondor’s decline is emblematic of its lack of a king and the decline of the stewards.
[Darkover] Most definitely, Chris
[Demosthenes] Denethor says something like “i would have things as they were in the days of my youth.” he doen’t want change.
[Dwyna] lack of humility and an insistence that no one is good enough to help?
[sunshower] maintain the status quo at all cost
[Darkover] Certainly, he doesn’t want to hand over power to his old rival, Thorongil
[Demosthenes] The hobbits bowed low. ‘So that is the King of Rohan!’ said Pippin in an undertone. ‘A fine old fellow. Very polite.’
[Darkover] “The Road to Isengard” chapter, Marco
[ChristineGolden] I also like the way Tolkien lays the foundation for the question, “what was longbottom leaf doing in Isengard and how did it get here?”
[Demosthenes] I like their summary of theoden
[Darkover] That turns out to be quite significant, at least to the future of the hobbits and the Shire, Chris
[sunshower] a fine old fellow, indeed
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Like he was some old gaffer
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: one could say … not essential to plot … yet it builds the sense of realness aobut the world.
[idril] i forgot about Thorongil! you wonder if Denethor when he heard of “the ranger from the north’s” coming and figured that it was him
[ChristineGolden] The exchange between the hobbits and Gimli was minor, but later turned out to be very significant.
[Jenniearcheo] smoking!!
[Darkover] I think it is a safe bet that he did, idril. The appendices seem to support that idea.
[sunshower] and feasting?
[ChristineGolden] But it was, Demosthenes, if you remember the Scouring of the Shire.
[Demosthenes] But the history of longbottom leaf?
[Darkover] Yes, I was really disappointed that PJ left out the Scouring of the Shire, even if it would have added another hour or two to the last movie.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, with the love of history
[ChristineGolden] No, I was referring to the hobbits discovering pipeweed in Isengard.
[Demosthenes] What is a world but its history?
[Darkover] As I recall, only Aragorn picked up on the significance of that, Chris. He realized it was not a sign of anything good.
[idril] Saruman’s connections with the Shire laid a foundation for him coming and making himself “the Boss”
[ChristineGolden] [looking at Darkover and biting my fingers.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: but we don’t really /need/ to know about tobold hornblower first planting pipeweed in 1070 SR.
[Demosthenes] It’s minutiae.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, at this point. I was just commenting on how Tolkien slips “little things” into a scene that later turn out to be game-changers.
[Darkover] No, but as Gandalf would observe, hobbits can talk about such minutiae for hours, Demosthenes.
[miriel] but it is a fun fact
[Susanita] good writing
[Demosthenes] And it builds the world for us.
[Darkover] Right, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn and Co. had spent a certain amount of time keeping The Shire sequestered away from the rest of the world. That Longbottom Leaf is out of the Shire, and in such a worrying place, is ominous
[Darkover] Quite so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I think the “history of pipeweed” bit was simply to create some dialogue between Theoden and Merry that would lead to their friendship. It’s the discovery of pipeweed in Isengard that’s important.
[Demosthenes] jennie: that is something that emerges later, yeah.
[Demosthenes] Yet the details create verisimiltude.
[Demosthenes] A lived-in universe.
[idril] its the little details and histories that create the “super-epic-legacy-full of-things-you-might-see-in-a-history book-in-Numenor’s-libraries” feel to his books
[ChristineGolden] I also thought it was sooooo typical for Merry to be the one on guard, watching for the visitors, while Pippin’s crashed out from ‘too much fun.’
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[idril]
[Demosthenes] Merry is the older more responsible one.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and that little moment highlights the difference between the two, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] I only have one last talking point. And that’s … Aragorn is really subdued in this chapter. He’s present but says extraordinarily little. It’s as though he’s gone back to being Strider.
[idril] if you call stealing vegetables from farmer maggot’s garden responsible, then yes
[Demosthenes] If only for a day or two.
[Darkover] “Look! Strider the Ranger is back!”
[Darkover] as Pippin said
[Susanita] trying not to step on Theoden’s toes?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes. that is next chapter.
[Demosthenes] suse: possibly?
[Jenniearcheo] Merry’s a little cheeky, telling Gandalf he hasn’t delivered the message because he’s been pestered by questions. From a King!
[Demosthenes] Letting Gandalf take the lead?
[Darkover] Aragorn isn’t in charge here at the moment, and I think he knows that, and is just lending a helping hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry, took me a minute to find that
[Jenniearcheo] He’s observing
[Jenniearcheo] As is his wont
[sunshower] costume change time
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh yes. he is rather pert there.
[ChristineGolden] He’s not ready to assume his kingship yet; he is still just the heir to Gondor. So, of course, he would defer to a crowned king.
[Darkover] Especially in that king’s own kingdom, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: and Gandalf is the chief counsellor of Theoden right now.
[Demosthenes] So maybe that’s why.
[Jenniearcheo] And with Gandalf back in charge, for now
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and Aragorn has always deferred to Gandalf’s judgment, so it makes sense to me.
[Demosthenes] A good leader knows when to stop managing?
[Demosthenes] Aragorn figures he can stop managing right now.
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had led the Fellowship until he fell. The period where Aragorn had to make all the decisions was a bit of a trial run for leading. Perhaps it’s with some relief he hands over the reins.
[ChristineGolden] Besides, it gives Tolkien the opportunity to deepen the bond between Aragorn and Eomer, which will be important later.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps Gandalf is seeing how easily he does hand them over. Or whether it sits well with him.
[Demosthenes] And we get legolas and gimli instead.
[Darkover] I think that is a bit much, Jennie. Aragorn has led plenty of people many times in other places. He is probably used to it, but he is not someone who would usurp another’s rightful authority, IMO.
[Jenniearcheo] oh, I’m sure he’s not chomping at the bit to lead here
[Darkover] Have we covered about everything in this chapter?
[sunshower] Strider needs a break!
[Jenniearcheo] But he was rather gnawing on his nails through the chase
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we’ve done pretty well.
[sunshower] did we leave out the 42 reference
[Darkover] As always, Demosthenes. And this has been enjoyable as usual, but it is late where I am, and I’m getting a bit hungry
[Darkover] So, anything more to discuss?
[Demosthenes] Okay, I think we’re done for the week.
[ChristineGolden] Bye, Darkover. See you next time.
[Esther] I’m glad I just ate
[Demosthenes] Next weekend … probably some trailer dissection.
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Susanita] good ideer dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Until then!
[idril] Bye guys!
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone for coming along!
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems
[Jess10] This was neat, thanks guys!
[Demosthenes] You’re all v welcome.
[idril] Great discussion!
[sunshower] thanks dems
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic next week: Oh just some Hobbit trailer yano? | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Jun 16 09:43:50 2013

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 22 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing the Desolation of Smaug trailer.

Session Start: Sun Jun 09 07:35:39 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: Tauriel, captain of guards. | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay! I think we have a nice-sized group of folks now. Shall we start our topic for the week?
[Elemmire] soooo…..
[Demosthenes] I’ll open with the obvious question. What did people think of the still image that EW posted up?
[Demosthenes] instant reactions.
[Raurenkili] WOW, more people than I’ve EVER seen in here
[Jenniearcheo] She looked like a girlie Robin Hood
[ChristineGolden] hideous
[Demosthenes] (we’ll get to the plot stuff later)
[flameofudun] i liked it.
[sauronswife] Can I have a description of the image?
[Phil-gaming] ok sorry
[Pete_R] with the bow and arrow? It was okay, I guess Didn’t grab me totally
[Demosthenes] sauronswife: i can link it.
[Erestel] I don’t think I’ve seen the image.
[Elemmire] she looks kinda elf-ish
[Elemmire] i guess
[lunarising] it was ok – the red hair seems odd
[Goldberry] Red hair?!?!
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Well.. although I never played it (only watched friends): Legend of Selda
[Demosthenes] http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/06/07/72841-hall-of-fire-chat-this-weekend-tauriel-captain-of-guards/ image here. warning for spoilers but if you’re worried about spoilers why are you here?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, red hair.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *Zelda
[miriel] she has red hair, whyyyyy
[sauronswife] I still need the text description to have the shapes in the image make sense.
[Phil-gaming] exactly why does an elf have red hair
[Elfriend] Dems, I already know Tauriel eats some key lime pie.
[Raurenkili] woodland color?
[ChristineGolden] Just one more deviation from canon in a long, long line.
[Elemmire] hmm, yeah, kinda like Zelda
[flameofudun] im wondering if it is an actual still from the movie or just a poster type thing
[Erestel] Looks alright.
[lunarising] is there some dwarf blood in her lineage? lol
[Linkdreams] It’s beautiful…
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure it’s really just chestnut brown
[Raurenkili] yeah
[ChristineGolden] No, red, Raurenkili. RED.
[Pete_R] Red hair because Orly had it in his contract that he would be the only hort blond elf. Well, him and his daddy
[Elemmire] not sure about the red hair
[Vince] I thought Legend of Zelda too. She looks like a female Link who is the main character in that video game
[Erestel] Elves can have red hair! Several sons of Feanor were red-headed.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] but even Zelda is blond^^
[Undomiel] She looks beautiful. Remember that it will look different on the actual movie green and it is probably just a raw set photo.
[miriel] it would have been nice with brown, but I guess they fear it would look too much like the elves we have seen in Rivendell
[Eruanna] Sometimes hair seems more red in the sun
[ChristineGolden] Check your canon, Erestel.
[Demosthenes] sauronswife: ummm, she has red hair, a green vest with a lace front, over a green dresslike affair and brown/red leather boots.
[ChristineGolden] There’s no way that a silvan elf inherited red hair.
[Puma] red was rare in elves..
[Raurenkili] yes
[flameofudun] i like the red. throwback to the seven sons of feanor. forget which one
[Elemmire] hi puma
[lunarising] maybe they were just trying to set her apart from the royals Thranduil and Legolas?
[sauronswife] Maedhros.
[Demosthenes] the bow is recurve and it has an /armour-piercing/ arrow knocked to it.
[Vince] Hey Puma
[Puma] gday Elemire
[sauronswife] Thank you Dem.
[Jenniearcheo] Is anybody with me on the Robin Hood thing?
[ChristineGolden] It existed in only one family, all of whom died without heirs.
[Elemmire] yup jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: yes, i get that too.
[lunarising] I am Jenniearcheo
[Goldberry] Me, jennie
[Erestel] I agree. She does look very Robin Hood-esque.
[AbiLuv] The red hair gives her distinction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Jen, as in Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
[Smaug] maybe red hair suits her personality best ? Evangeline said Tauriel isn’t like most elves
[sauronswife] Except Curufin, but his heir was killed so yes…you could say that.
[Puma] well..not actually Christine
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] perhaps its because we already have so prominent elves with blond (legolas, galadriel, thranduil) and dark (elrond, arwen) hair?
[lunarising] lol ChristineGolden
[Elemmire] hmmm maybe
[ChristineGolden] So what, AbiLuv? It’s a violation of Tolkien and for no good reason.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m fascinated that Chris and Puma are going to get into it over a discussion about a made-up character.
[lunarising] they could have made it dark blond to light brown
[AbiLuv] It’s a movie. they need distinction
[Puma] maglor still wanders the shores of middle earth.so the line of feanor is alive
[Demosthenes] I’m sure they shall be very nice about it
[ChristineGolden] No exactly what, Puma?
[lunarising] and still been within canon
* sauronswife facewalls.
[sauronswife] How did I FORGET about Maglor. *sob*
[Puma] we have no clue about hair color of the nandor
[flameofudun] agreed with abi. and hair colour is not a deviation from canon
[Eruanna] Is it ever actually specifically said elves cannot have red hair?
[Smaug] I love the fact that there are new stuff in the movies !
* AbiLuv patpats sauronswife
* sauronswife nods to Puma.
[Pete_R] there, there, sauronswife
[flameofudun] agreed, smaug
[Puma] aka.silvan elves
[Demosthenes] As i noted in the post, i think the red hair is overblown … but I think it could be the sunlight.
[AbiLuv] yeah
[miriel] possibly, it looked darker in production videos
[ChristineGolden] Three of Feanor’s sons had red hair that they supposedly inherited from their mother who stayed in Valinor. None of those three sons left heirs. So where did the always-enchanting Tauriel get hers?
[Phil] i don’t know
[Erestel] Her hair looks darker in other images,
[Demosthenes] Also, does everyone remember the fuss over the very first official still of Thorin Oakenshield?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] back to the question: my first reaction was: finally something new about DOS… it was very silent the last months
* Elemmire thinks there should be two movies, one with all the extra stuff and one just for hardcore fans with nothing added
[miriel] the klingon fuss? yes.
[Demosthenes] “omg he’s a klingon”
[Raurenkili] YES!
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Phil] it just looks very strange that an elf should have that kind of reddish color
[Demosthenes] Yes, exactly. could this be the same thing?
[Puma] you are talking noldor.nothing to do with silvan
[miriel] poooossibly
[Raurenkili] yes
[ChristineGolden] It is specified, Eruanna, that only one family had red hair, the family of Feanor’s second wife.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] mae govannen, all!
[Elemmire] hi darkover
[Raurenkili] mae govannen
[Erestel] Nerdanel can’t have been the only red-headed elf in existence. I don’t remember what hair colors were prominent in Silvan elves, but I don’t remember red hair being strictly impossible.
[Darkover] howdy1
[Darkover] !
[Goldberry] Hi darkover
[lunarising] hi Darkover
[miriel] Darkover
[Elfriend] I blame the Elf shampoo.
[Puma] its specified for the noldor Chrsitine
[ChristineGolden] It’s in Vol 12 of HOME.
[sauronswife] Feanor had only one wife…..
[Birdsong] mae yo all
[AbiLuv] lol Elfriend
[Elemmire] lol elfriend
[Puma] and that reference was for the noldor.not all elves
[mib_r03mq5] It is not her hair colour that worries me. A shadow and a threat have been growing in my mind.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Elfriend
[Darkover] I thought the family of Feanor’s second wife were known for their blonde hair
[Puma] thats finwes
[ChristineGolden] Well, then, Erestel, who where the others?
[Darkover] not that I object to red, which is cool
[Pete_R] hi, Birdsong
[Raurenkili] common colors dark black, dark browns and light blondes
[sauronswife] Thank you Puma.
[Linkdreams] Personally, I don’t think the red hair would be so bad if it was a little darker/ auburn.
[flameofudun] yup i think thats finwes
[Raurenkili] for all Elves
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I looked it up and tracked it down.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure it will be on screen, Linkdreams
[Smaug] maybe her hair won’t look as red as they do in the picture, that’s because of the sunlight
[Elemmire] i’ve just noticed, this is a really popular HOF…
[Darkover] ok, thank you, Chris and Puma
[sauronswife] I have to agree Mahtan’s family can’t be the ONLY redheads….
[Amy] I don’t see how red hair could have been impossible. Rare, maybe. But not impossible. So why shouldn’t she have it?
[lunarising] i’m sticking with my dwarf theory
[AbiLuv] Tauriel is a big topic
[Darkover] Probably because everyone wants to discuss Tauriel
[ElvenPrincess] I agree with Amy..
[flameofudun] yeah its not polished up yet
[AbiLuv] FFN has a whole huge forum on her
[Elemmire] yup
[Raurenkili] Noldor were typically dark haired, except Finwe’s line
[Puma] except finarfins line
[Darkover] Well, redheads are comparatively rare, but cool, and why shouldn’t some elves have red hair?
[Erestel] There could be hundreds of other red-headed elves created at Cuivienen for all we know.
[Pete_R] Sticking with what, lunarising, duct tape, Krazy Glue, velcro…
[Raurenkili] yes, puma thanks 4 correction
[chrysophylax] (hi everybody)
[Raurenkili] hi
[Puma] gday dives
[Darkover] hi, chrysophylax
[ChristineGolden] I’m sticking with canon, Amy; Tolkien only mentioned one family of redheads and he was specific about it.
[Linkdreams] I like my fantasy women in flowing apparel and wielding bows.
* Elemmire makes note to self to finish Silmarillion so can sound as knowledgable as everyone else…
[Raurenkili] yeah lol
[Darkover] maybe only one family of redhaired Elves in the histories, Chris
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I’m sure that there will be an explanation why she looks so different
[Goldberry] Lol
[Puma] christine.read again.that only refers to noldor
[Raurenkili] yes
[Smaug] yeah I agree, we’ve got speculations to make about the new stuff is the movies, thus Tauriel is an interesting subject, everyone want to discuss her
[Demosthenes] Does chestnut count as red?
[mib_vngh0v] maybe she dyed it
[Raurenkili] lol I keep sain yes
[Raurenkili] reddish
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and we’re talking about a work of fiction, not a real history. So, if Tolkien didn’t write about it, it didn’t happen.
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t care what color her hair is. I want her and Legolas to tend bar at Thranduil’s parties, doing fancy bartender tricks, flipping bottle of Dorwinion .. .
[Elemmire] nope demos
[Darkover] I mean, Tolkien implies at times that there are a lot of things that don’t get mentioned, or don’t get mentioned at that time. Doesn’t mean such things weren’t occurring elsewhere.
[Pete_R] And hobbits were supposed to be round, but they’re not in the films. Hair color is not critical, *especially* in a made-up character..
[Linkdreams] I’m all for canon in a movie Christine, as long as it looks good onscreen.
[Vince] Maybe Taruiel just dyes her hair
[Amy] What would an elf dye her hair with? :p
[Elfriend] Costuming must be proud, all this discussion about the characters hair : )
[Raurenkili] Elves weren’t known to dye their hair
[brennil] plants?
[Demosthenes] jennie: well, Tolkien does write of the captain of guards getting drunk in the hobbit. So we may just see something like that.
[Jenniearcheo] Magic, Amy
[flameofudun] my thoughts as well
[ChristineGolden] Maybe Jackson just thought making her a redhead would make her seem hotter to those who care about such things.
[Goldberry] Beetroot?
[Elemmire] lol elfriend
[chrysophylax] Tauriel is a Grey Elf, but that has nothing to do with hair color
[Jenniearcheo] I’m worried that PJ’s going to leave the party aspect out
[Goldberry] For dye:p
[miriel] maybe they want that oscar for hair and makeup very badly?
[Puma] the butler galion got drunk
[Jenniearcheo] I mean, I’m not actually going so far as to require a disco ball . . .
[Demosthenes] didn’t they both get drunk?
[Amy] Oh. haha
[Smaug] am I the only one who like her hair color ?
[gstommylee] Perhaps the red hair was to make it easy for us to spot her out in battle
[flameofudun] yup
[Linkdreams] Like I said, that fiery red just doesn’t do a lot for me personally…
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] would it be legal for Legolas to have a relationship with her? because she is so much younger than him
[Darkover] I like her hair color. I used to be a redhead myself
[Puma] and Tauriel is not a grey elf.sindar…..she is nandor..silvan
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie, the writers invented themselves into a corner with the Leggy-Gimli drinking contest
[flameofudun] and to distinguish her from the rest
[ChristineGolden] Then they should elevate Bob Buck to chief of costuming and makeup and dump what’s her name.
[gstommylee] if you have 15 elves fighting orcs with similar hair color how would we know which one was her
[Jenniearcheo] They did. The Tolkien Professor is of the opinion that . . . as Pete says
[Linkdreams] It does kinda make the photo pop though.
[Elemmire] true pete
[ElvenPrincess] The biggest problem I have with Tauriel is her occupation…would be more fun if she was more girly. :p but honestly I’m pretty sure it’l turn out well in the end.
[AbiLuv] Smaug: I do like the colour. Just not sure I like the character
[Darkover] She looked like a female
[Darkover] Robin Hood to me
[Erestel] I dunno, LieutenantOfDolGuldur, but thankfully PJ confirmed that Legolas and Tauriel won’t be in any romantic relationship.
[Elemmire] yeah, most of us think that darkover
[Puma] jrr said.female elves are just as capable as being warriors as male elves
[Jenniearcheo] But the other school of thought is that since Legolas was weaned on high-octane Dorwinion wine from a pup, he’s just got a high tolerance and weak human beer wouldn’t affect him much
[chrysophylax] dear goodness, not the dreaded female Robin Hood
[ChristineGolden] No, the chosen one seems to be Kili.
[Smaug] but with Kili
[Darkover] Frankly, I wish Tauriel, as a totally non-canon character, weren’t in the movie at all. But since she is, I have no problem with her being a redhead
[brennil] she better be a well-developed character…
[Elfriend] @.@ Kili
[Amy] Well Arwen was kinda girly more girly. I like the fact that she’s a tough warrior elf.
[flameofudun] i believ u but where did he say that Puma
[Darkover] and I hope her character will add more to the movie, than detract from it
[Jenniearcheo] Me too, Amy
[ChristineGolden] I have a problem with everything about her, Darkover.
[Darkover] brb, all
[Linkdreams] Shouldn’t a Captian be wearing some sort of armour besides a tunic? I mean I know it works for Link but these battles will likely be on a more grand scale.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring
[Elemmire] yeah
[chrysophylax] What non-canon characters, aside the orc put on a pedestal, were in the LOTR movies?
[flameofudun] oh ok
[Raurenkili] Sebastian
[Amy] I think PJ knows what he’s doing.
[Erestel] Faramir’s second-in-command at Osgiliath was a movie-only character, chrysophylax.
[miriel] the chosen one was harry potter, and just like harry potter has nothing to do in lotr I really really hope there won’t be any “chosen ones” or loveaffairs there
[Elfriend] Long as she doesn’t call anyone ‘Jack’ it should all be ok.
[Puma] yikes.big crowd tonight
[Demosthenes] Linkdreams: not sure one would always wear armour. also, legolas actually didn’t have armour in LOTR.
[sunshower] ha! Elfriend
[Jenniearcheo] I think she’ll have a thing for Legolas, and Kili will have a thing for her. Nothing will be requited, and the dwarves will tease Kili over it
[ElvenPrincess] Yes. I agree with Amy. PJ knows what he’s doing, so it’s all good.
[flameofudun] yes madril was added in too
[Smaug] Don’t you think Tauriel is likely to die in the Battle of Five Armies ? If she’s in love with Kili…
[ChristineGolden] I do, too, Amy, he’s deliberately adding a ‘hot elven warrior babe’ to up his box office.
[Demosthenes] the only one to wear armour in LOTR was gimli. his coat of rings.
[mib_vngh0v] chrysophylax what orc do you mean
[Pete_R] As I mentuoned on Tuesday–Te Tolkien Professor mntioned that Arwen is just about the soitting image of Luthien, and since Luthien was a serious warrior, it wouldn;t have been that nuts to have Arwen be tough, too. In theory, anyways
[Puma] pj has no idea what he’sdoing
[Elemmire] and frodo – mithril
[Elemmire] demos
[Pete_R] spitting image
[Linkdreams] True. I love my fantasy characters in robes, tunic, at the most leather armor.
[gstommylee] isn’t legolas more like a ranger then a warrior compared to other elves
[Amy] PJ doesn’t do the stuff he does to “up his box office”. He does it for the story.
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: ah yes. but that was secret.
[ChristineGolden] Bull.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Legolas did wear an armour at the battle of helms deep
[Elemmire] fair point
[Raurenkili] I agree, PJ is clueless
[chrysophylax] you know, like the fungus-face guy who leads the assault against Gondor, mib_vngh0v
[ChristineGolden] Or are you claiming that Jackson is a better writer than Tolkien, Amy?
[Elfriend] Raurenkili – 12 Oscars clueless
[mib_vngh0v] chrysophylax Gothmog?
[Linkdreams] hey guys check out my pinterest board sometime…http://pinterest.com/tmonk/euro-fantasy-art-illustration/
[Puma] pj is purely box office…he writes fan fic.good fanfic…he does not do jrr
[flameofudun] she wont be in love with kili. evengeline lily hinted that she would have a bit of a romance with legolas because thranduil thinks so highly of her legolas will go for her
[Raurenkili] lol elffriend
[ChristineGolden] five stars, Puma.
[chrysophylax] I’m just trying to think of any characters that we could compare Tauriel with
[Erestel] Gothmog was in the books, chrysophylax, but he was only mentioned once.
[brennil] Puma, are you a purist?
[Raurenkili] yes
[flameofudun] and not specified to be an orc
[chrysophylax] puma is the purest of pureness
[Elfriend] I’m going into this as I went into the last one, for fun.
[Amy] No! Not at all. But I’m saying he knows the story and is a big fan himself, and wants to do them justice. Anything he adds will not detract from the story. he has good intentions and will see it through in a good way.
[Puma] moi.a purist?
[Erestel] Lurtz, however, was movie-only.
[Jenniearcheo] Puma and ChristineGolden both are. In fact, I’m not sure why they’re here today
[sunshower] FIGWIT, chrysophylax?
[Elemmire] Lurtz isn’t kinda specifically mentioned in the books…i think..its a long time since i read them
[Raurenkili] I am too!!!!!!!
[Elemmire] yep
[Raurenkili] I’m a Purist
[Raurenkili]
[sauronswife] Hahaha Figwit.
[chrysophylax] whatever you just said went over my head, sunshower
[Jenniearcheo] Well, you ladies can share the bucket of mud you’re slinging
[Pete_R] Same here, Elfriend. I refuse to allow my purist tendencies to ruin my enjoyment f the films
[Raurenkili] me’n Puma and Christine
[Elemmire] uh…sorry, what was the question
[ChristineGolden] Why not, Jennie?
[Elfriend] It’s still interesting to me how one character – which I’m not thrilled with in all honesty – can overshadow how close these films came to not being made
[Raurenkili] what was the deal with Figwit?
[brennil] I’ve managed to seperate book and movie. Movie is just entertainment
[Erestel] Unless I’m mistaken, Figwit is the fan-name of Lindir, a character from the books.
[sauronswife] Good way of looking at it brennil…
[flameofudun] his name is lindir now, dont u forget
[Puma] in principle i have no problem with Tauriel……..there were elves like her
[chrysophylax] movie is an augmentation for me. I appreciate any well-intended visualization of my favorite books.
[Jenniearcheo] Far be it from me to discourage your pleasure. Go ahead and fling.
[Amy] Is Lindir in the books?
[AbiLuv] lol
[ChristineGolden] female warriors, Puma?
[ChristineGolden] female elven warriors?
[Goldberry] I liked figwit better:p
[chrysophylax] Lindir I believe is mentioned
[Pete_R] Is Lindir *supposed* to be the same character as Figwit?
[Puma] yes.lindhir is in lotr.not the hobbit
[Raurenkili] ABILUV Lindir is in the books!!!!
[Jenniearcheo] no
[sunshower] LOL– chrysophylax–the un-named elf in LotR, later noted as figwit, a noncanon character?
[chrysophylax] but no death scene at Helm’s Deeps
[Erestel] Yes, Amy. He was a good friend of Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell after he left Bag End for good.
[flameofudun] hes definetley not in the hobbit
[chrysophylax] subtract that s
[Jenniearcheo] Figwit was just a fan name for the nameless elf he played in FOTR
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] actually Lurtz might be the perfect LOTR-equal to Tauriel
[chrysophylax] in fact, there were no elves at Helm’s Deep
[Amy] Oh wow. I need to re-read.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, but I still wonder of he is supposed to be the same person
[flameofudun] i belive u are thinking of haldir,
[Erestel] Let’s hope so, LieutenantOfDolGuldur. Except one is for fanservice, and the other for plot convenience.
[Jenniearcheo] Fun LOTR audiobook, Amy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jYdUfQ5aZg&list=PLE137F361D68B836E
[flameofudun] i belive he is. both identical, both from rivendell
[Symbelmine] [flameofudun] Lindir isn´t in The Hobbit book but since he is a Rivendell elf it makes sense he appeared there in the movie.
[chrysophylax] Do we think Tauriel will distract from the story, or will there be enough in the upcoming 6 – 7 hours of movie left to accommodate her?
[Raurenkili] Puma, Lindir was in TH and LOTR remember, “don’t let Bilbo get stuck in the keyhole” and some Elves have over merry tongues Lindir?
[brennil] I don’t get where Figwit came from in the first place. Silly, if you ask me.
[Smaug] maybe the interview hinted that Thranduil would like her to have a romance with Legolas ? But she won’t really have one, and she’ll have a romance with Kili instead ?
[flameofudun] yup i agree symbelmine
[Amy] Oh cool, thanks Jennie
[Demosthenes] I’d like to throw out something for speculation. Evangeline Lilly in mentioning that Tauriel was a silvan elf said this: “She sort of goes against the social order of the elves a little bit.” And I wondered whether that would mean she would be a rebel of sorts…
[ChristineGolden] I think she will be a terrible distraction and result in some possible other major changes later.
[Demosthenes] Do others agree?
[Puma] time for the ponies…….bbiab
[chrysophylax] sounds like Legolas is going to pull the “I see you as a sister” bit
[Jenniearcheo] np
[gstommylee] imo its hard to enjoy a movie if its being picked apart. That’s why i tend to watch movies as is on the first view then look at specifics of what I don’t like in the second viewing.
[chrysophylax] what social order of elves are we imagining here?
[Raurenkili] lol
[brennil] in this 6-7 hrs of movie, does BoFA consist entirely of battles? if so…
[ChristineGolden] I think it was an allusion to her ‘involvement’ with Kili.
[Jenniearcheo] Following Thranduil’s orders RE: dwarf imprisonment?
[chrysophylax] Legolas was a bit of a “rogue” elf in his way – you just don’t see elves gallavanting around like he did
[Erestel] I’m going to give Tauriel the benefit of the doubt for now. Let’s hope she’ll do nothing to alter the plot significantly.
[Demosthenes] chrysophylax: well, you could say the one where Vanyar ] Noldir ] Sindar ] Silvan
[Jenniearcheo] There’s speculation that she’ll have something to do with their escape
[gstommylee] 6-7 hours?
[Demosthenes] That is kinda how i interprted it.
[Pete_R] It seems that the elven rebels I can think of were pretty much evil, Dems–the sons pf Feanor, etc
[ChristineGolden] $5 says Kili dies because of Tauriel.
[Raurenkili] what?
* AbiLuv isn’t an Elf person anyway
* sauronswife loves Elves.
* Raurenkili knows
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] in the book there was no Uruk before Ugluk named and in FOTR we’ve got Lurtz with a bunch of scenes. I think it will be the same with Tolkiens Elves and Tauriel being a FACE to them… although Legolas would’ve been enough
[brennil] 2 1/2, maybe 3 hours each
[Demosthenes] Or, that she is driven more by her own internal sense of ethics rather than blind loyalty.
[Symbelmine] My speculation is that she will have some spot for Kili therefore she will help dwarves to escape
[Erestel] I really hope that’s where we’re wrong, Jenniearcheo. The escape should be Bilbo proving his wit and worth.
[Demosthenes] that’s another interpretation that’s possible.
[chrysophylax] Kili dies because Thorin’s his uncle and dies defending him NOT for an elf…if this happens, PJ’s gonna get it
[sauronswife] And agreed about rebellion being a Noldor/Feanor thing.
* Raurenkili loves Elves, especially Noldor
[Jenniearcheo] Possibly the other way around, ChristineGolden. I’m sure she’ll perish in the battle. For one reason or another
* Raurenkili isn’t a BIG fan of Silvan Elves
* sauronswife high fives Raurenkili.
[Vince] Tauriel kills Kili?
[Amy] I forgot Kili was gonna die
[ChristineGolden] She’ll be at the BoFA since she’s so close to Thrandruil (Lilly’s words) and Kili will take the blow for her.
[sunshower] wonder if Gloin ever told Gimli about this she-elf person?
[sunshower]
[Linkdreams] Possibly, but I think Tolkien movie characters pull the just friends relationship off really well.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I know canon, but when has that stopped PJ?
[Smaug] But maybe Tauriel & Kili will die side by side or something like that ?
[chrysophylax] Tauriel = Arwen + Eowyn?
[Vince] I wonder if Tauriel will die
[Erestel] Kili dies for Thorin. If PJ has the balls to change that, then he’s dead to me.
[flameofudun] christinegolden did lily confirm that she would be at the battle of five armies
[sauronswife] Haha, maybe chrysophylax!
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I thought about that too [Smaug] yes
[serinde] interesting as a combination of arwen & Eowyn
[Linkdreams] Rebel tendencies can be veeery interesting…
[ChristineGolden] In each other’s arms, exchanging loving looks, Smaug? It just gets better and better.
[Raurenkili] me too Erestel (earlier)
[serinde] seems to me the sylvan elves are those who never headed west; but they seem to be ruled by the Lighter elves
[ChristineGolden] Tauriel is the captain of Thrandruil’s guard. Of course, she would be leading his troops at BoFA.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah
[Demosthenes] serinde: that’s basically the case.
[Vince] Is Taruiel a sadist? she seems to enjoy torturing orcs
[Jenniearcheo] But they know how to party, serinde
[chrysophylax] She’s a captain!!!???
[Amy] Does Kili die in the BoFA?
[ChristineGolden] Yep.
[chrysophylax] Yes, Amy
[Raurenkili] yes
[brennil] I think the issue is PJ got concerned about money and made the movie too long…so too much screen time to fill.
[Demosthenes] vince: the “ruthless killer” thing?
[gstommylee] amy in book yes
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I just realized that the BoFA could be the “red wedding” of middle-earth… well at least for some fans
* chrysophylax sniffs sadly
[Erestel] Sadly yes, Amy. Fili too.
[sauronswife] Vince, yeah that line kinda got me too as odd.
[serinde] well, all elves know how to party
[Smaug] well that’s likely if she has a romance with Kili and if Kili dies…
[Amy] So the 3rd movie. Well at least he won’t be gone in the second
[Raurenkili] yeah
[ChristineGolden] I’d call it “jumping the shark,” LieutenantOfDolGuldur.
* sauronswife makes a face. (redwedding)
[gstommylee] brennil i disagree
[Jenniearcheo] In the book, Fili, Kili, and Thorin are the only known and named characters to die in the battle. I’m guessing PJ will kill the not-needed-later Tauriel off, too
[Demosthenes] One can be a “ruthless killer” and not a butcher. well, i would say so anyhow.
[mib_vngh0v] I dont understand all the PJ bashing, the films are an adaptation of Tolkien’s books they are according to Thomas Leitch an “adjustment” not a literal or “celebratory” adaptation
[Jenniearcheo] lol LieutenantOfDolGuldur
[gstommylee] we don’t even know what the full story script would be for the 3
[gstommylee] compared to if it was just 2
[serinde] i’m guessing that Tauriel doesn’t die
[Symbelmine] I hope Kili won´t die trying to save Tauriel.
[ChristineGolden] Jackson has gone far beyond ‘artistic adaptation,’ mib_vngh0v.
[Raurenkili] YEAH
[Demosthenes] serinde: ooh, why? a lot of folk reckon she will get toasted.
[brennil] oh, I guess. Still think it’s pushing it, gstommylee
[ChristineGolden] That’s exactly what I think will happen, Symbelmine.
[Raurenkili] OH NO
[serinde] just to have someone mourning for Kili forever …
[mib_vngh0v] it is not artistic adaptation though, he has rendered the text more suitable for filming, and what the films purposes are, to entertain
[Erestel] Considering Azog’s obsession with severed heads, I’m placing my money on Kili’s death being decapitation.
[Jenniearcheo] I think her death change the way we look at Legolas in LOTR. It will inform his mistrust of the dwarves at the Council. Which might be weird.
[gstommylee] and note what may be simple paragraph in a book could take 15-30mins to explain in a movie
[Elemmire] Sorry, I’m back. What are we talking about?
[Amy] It would be insane if they had a romance between an elf and a dwarf…
[Smaug] well that could be Tauriel dying for Kili and Kili dying for Thorin
[ChristineGolden] Why bother spending all that time creating “the love that dare not be named,” then do nothing with it?
[Vince] theys ay she’s a ruthless killer and that clip from the Blu-ray sneak peak shows her interrogating an orc with glee
[Raurenkili] yeah
[Jenniearcheo] That’s what I think, Smaug
[Raurenkili] not good
[Pete_R] Dunno about that, Erestel, on;y because I dont recall any good guy in PJ’s films being decapitated. He seems to save that for the baddies.
[Demosthenes] A point of pronunciation, is it Toweriel … following the rule of the pronunciation of Sauron?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] It will be the first time that three fan favorite characters from middle-earth will die.. so it will be a huge shock for the unknown audience.. but wasn’t TAURIEL the topic?
[sauronswife] I got Noldor vibes off that Tauriel interrogation clip…
[Vince] she says something like, “you like blood?! you like death and killing?! Well Ill gladly give it to you!” or something
[gstommylee] brennil: we don’t even know how long the whole smaug fight would be
[Jenniearcheo] I really don’t think it’ll be a “romance.” I think it will be a Gimli [3 Galadriel kind of thing
[Raurenkili] yeah
[sauronswife] Yes, Demosthenes.
[flameofudun] hey guys lindir is indeed from fellowship of the ring, in the many meetings chapter. his role is expanded int the AUJ and ROTK movies, though, obviously
[Pete_R] yes, Dems, Towriel seems right
[sauronswife] Tauriel like Sauron.
[Raurenkili] she is kindof a bad example
[Elemmire] yeah demos
[AbiLuv] brb
[Demosthenes] Linguistics lesson for the morning.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] well I’m from Germany so it’s rather obvious to me how to pronounce it
[Amy] Hmm. That makes more sense.
[ChristineGolden] Tauriel doesn’t have the necessary requirements to be the object of courtly love, Jennie.
[Vince] the worst part is the people who only see the movies and don’t read the books who will think Taruiel is a Tolkien invented character in the Hobbit lol
[Raurenkili] TOAR-EE-el
[Jenniearcheo] We don’t really know that
[Pete_R] LieutenantOfDolGuldur, here in New York we would pronounce it TAW-ree-ell.
[Raurenkili] yeah
[Raurenkili] I hate that
* sauronswife nods to Vince and shudders.
[Amy] Vince, yes that will suck.
[Elfriend] Nah
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think it makes any difference how it’s pronounced, because it’s not a canon character. So whatever
* Goldberry nods
[Raurenkili] Like, for example faramirs character getting ruined in lotr
[mib_vngh0v] Vince no they won’t enough chatter about it that they know she is made up
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Pete_R thanks for the lesson
[serinde] who can be bothered with people who don’t bother to read the books
[Elemmire] uh…me…
[brennil] agreed Raurenkili
[serinde] sorry
[Vince] I wonder how big her part will be
[Elemmire] no one i know has read them
[Demosthenes] Nuh-uh. Be nice!
[Elemmire] but im trying to persuade them…
[sauronswife] And me.. as I hope to get everyone TO read them eventually. [33
[Vince] maybe she won’t be a likeable character? They describe her as a ruthless character
[Vince] a ruthless killer
[Amy] I always tend to watch the movie first… and then I fall in love with it and I HAVE to read the books.
[Pete_R] I have a *lot* less problem with Tauriel as a character (red hair and all) than I do with Azog still being alive…
[sauronswife] Tha’ts an interesting angle I never thought of, Vince.
[Demosthenes] vince: that /would/ be unusual.
[Elemmire] hmm
[serinde] Legolas was ‘ruthless’ with those short swords of his
[Erestel] I agree, Pete_R.
[Demosthenes] I think it unlikely. But it would be different.
[Vince] the Mirkwood elves are supposed to be a threat
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I wonder why she’s interrogating that poor orc. whats her goal?
[Elemmire] yeah pete
[Vince] in the narrative of the Hobbit
[Smaug] I think the first Hobbit film was quite faithfull to the book, and there is also new plots, which is awesome
[Demosthenes] But if so, why would thranduil have a soft spot for her?
[Jenniearcheo] She’s actually a serial killer
[flameofudun] agreed smaug
[Amy] I think we’ll like her.
[Raurenkili] I was horrified that Azog was brought to life
[sauronswife] Haha Jenniearcheo!
[Vince] Taruiel is so evil she makes us feel bad for an ORC
[Demosthenes] That being said, i cannot currently imagine Thranduil having a soft spot for anyone.
[Elfriend] Perhaps Tauriel is an inspiration for Legolas
[Elemmire] well, in the book of the hobbit, thranduil isnt exactly all fluffy bunnies
[Amy] Azog is in the appendices, right? isn’t he only mentioned for like one line in the book
[Raurenkili] I couldn’t believe PJ had the nerve
[ChristineGolden] I would agree with that, Pete, except I don’t know what Jackson plans to do with Tauriel. If it ends with some love scene on the battlefield outside Erebor, well…
[flameofudun] but legolas is older by 1200 years or so
[Erestel] Yes, Amy.
[Darkover] I’m back at last. Sorry
* Raurenkili eats Wafles
[sauronswife] Welcome back Darkover.
[Raurenkili] *Waffles
[Amy] Okay. I need to go read the appendices. I didn’t know he had died…
[ChristineGolden] I have no idea, Demosthenes. It’s something Lilly said in an interview.
[Darkover] thank you, sauronswife
[Demeter07] I wonder if the orc she is interrogating is Bolg??
[Amy] I didn’t know much about him at all really.
[serinde] aren’t Thranduil & Legolas of a different ‘kind’ of elf
[Pete_R] We’re sorry you’re back, too, Darkover.
[gstommylee] the whole azog being a live is just a flaw with how movies tend to be done imo
[Pete_R] joking!!!
* Elemmire corrects raurenkili and gives waffles instead
[flameofudun] didnt look like him
[ChristineGolden] wb, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i figured something a bit R&J-ish. Tragic star-crossed, (platonic?) love.
[Jenniearcheo] Pete, did the Digest ladies liken Thranduil to the Goblin King from Labrynth?
[Vince] the thing that annoys me is that just because she’s a female character, there has to be a love story angle. They even made Galadriel kinda flirty with Gandalf for godsakkes
[Darkover] aww, Pete_R, I know you love me
[Goldberry] Are there any ruthless killer female-elves in tolkien?
[Elemmire] hi again darkover
[ChristineGolden] Oh, God, gmta, Demosthenes; I thought the same thing.
[Pete_R] with an undying passion and stuff, Darkover :-*
[Amy] I don’t think Galadriel was being flirty with Gandalf…
* Raurenkili already corrected herself but thanks Elemmire anyway
[brennil] Same here, Vince
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] no it’s not Bolg. he looked smaller and there was no bear claw on his shoulder Demeter07
[serinde] so for Thranduil to have a soft spot ? perhaps she is an orphan … her parents killed by orcs
[gstommylee] vince isn’t there a romance moment in movies?
* DalekJim (Mibbit@7913B046.FBA1C453.76B3B01C.IP) has joined #thehalloffire
[Darkover] Natch, Pete
[Demosthenes] That’s another point: I got the impression from what Turner hinted … that it was a bit unrequited?
[Amy] I think it just looked that way in the trailer.
[Demosthenes] That’s assuming we are on the right track.
[ChristineGolden] Well, I wouldn’t have acted like that with another man when I was married, amy.
[Jenniearcheo] Pete_R, did the Digest ladies liken Thranduil to the Goblin King from Labrynth?
[Darkover] Unrequited by Tauriel, or by the other person?
[Elemmire] that annoyed me vince-in the trailer for AUJ if you dont know whats happening, they look like theyre flirting
[sauronswife] Alas no ruthless killer fem elves, plenty of male ones. *sigh* That would have been awesome *keeps all ruthless killer fem Elves for herself*
[Vince] the Hobbit book does talk about how the Slyvian Elves are a bit more misguided and dangerous than other elves so her being a ruthless killer does kinda fit canon
[Smaug] I don’t think it will end with a love scene, I guess the romance will not be such an important plot
[Elemmire] hopefullly not
[Pete_R] Demz, I get the impression that the romance is supposed to be comic relief, for the most part
[serinde] Goldberry … we don’t know what part Galadriel played in the battle with the Sea-Elves
[Darkover] I don’t believe there were any ruthless female killer Elves in Tolkien. He seemed to have a somewhat idealized view of womanhood.
[Vince] I don’t think Aragorn/Arwen was comic relief
[Darkover] but then again, he was writing fairy tales.
* AbiLuv nods in agreement
[Erestel] Galadriel was in no way “flirty”, Vince. She was merely being comforting to Gandalf in troubling times. She KISSED Frodo, and no one seems to care about that.
[flameofudun] yes that i 1000 percent right vince
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: Hmmm, i would prefer it to not be played for laughs
[Elfriend] The can all do Gangnam style before the end credits as long as I see Smaug – but I tangent.
[gstommylee] Elemmire: thats the problem with trailers its so easy to take things out of context
[Amy] I agree with Erestel.
[Pete_R] Dunno, Jennie–I usually don’t listen to the digests. Maybe I should start
[Amy] She’s an elf. They
[Amy] They’re different than humans.
[Demosthenes] EL’s words: She will definitely have a love story. I can’t give away too much about it. It’s not a huge focus but it is there and it is important and it does drive Tauriel and her story and her actions.”
[Symbelmine] Lilly siad the romance isn´t a big part but it was there and it´s important for her story and affects Tauriel´s acts.
[Vince] Esrestel, I know that but you can’t deny, that it was KINDA suggestive and many people who don’t know Tolkien did think it was kinda romantic
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover. The only elven woman I recall being a fighter was Galadriel during the flight of the Noldor.
[Elemmire] yeah, i had a friend who asked me about that trailer. i had to explain it all…
[Demosthenes] *it’s not a huge focus*
[Darkover] Right, Chris
[Pete_R] Demz, I picture Fili(or is it Kili) getting real moony and sighing every time she asses by–like a teenage crush
[gstommylee] i don’t judge a speific thing in a trailer until i see it in context aka what goes on before that moment and what happens after that moment before juding
[Demosthenes] Are we too worried over a tiny thing?
[Darkover] Maybe the person Tauriel once loved was killed by orcs, and that is what drives her.
[Smaug] I agree symbelmine
[Amy] Pete, I can definitely see that. haha
[Erestel] I’d say so, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: like elladan and Elrohir?
[brennil] This is spoiling the movie for me Gotta go, anyway
[Elfriend] Dems – I think so.
[Darkover] Possibly, Demosthenes, but we can’t help but speculate
[Demosthenes] i could see that
[Jenniearcheo] Or Beorn?
[Demosthenes] later brennil!
[ChristineGolden] The character or the romance, Demosthenes?
[Amy] I like that theory Darkover.
[AbiLuv] Pete_R: hopefully Kili’s smarter than that
[Elemmire] hmm demosthenes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: the romance element specifically.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] But there will be one… so if it’s not Legolas.. who else? Thranduil? No. Bilbo? No. Thorin? Never. Kili? Perhaps yes! Or Bard? Demosthenes
[Elfriend] I’ll risk asking, would it make a difference if the new character were male?
[Darkover] Yes, something like that, Demosthenes, although maybe the person killed was Tauriel’s husband or lover, rather than a parent
[gstommylee] the whole fili – Tauriel romance i am going to wait and see the whole thing in context before judging rather it was a good move on PJ part or a bad move
[Pete_R] Christine, don’t forget Luthien. You don’t get defeat Morgoth by being girly.
[Demosthenes] Bard is interesting. He’s an archer. Another meeting of minds?
[Elemmire] hmm
[flameofudun] exactly pete
[Darkover] If Tauriel’s lover was killed by orcs, and that motivates her, we might learn this through flashback
[sauronswife] Yes it would make a HUGE difference if Tauriel was male and that kinda makes me mad..
[chrysophylax] but you do by having feminine wiles, Pete_R !
[Symbelmine] [LieutenantOfDolGuldur] It won´t be Bard. He will be married in the movie.
[serinde] yes, Luthien … who defeated Sauron!
[Amy] Maybe we’ll get more clues when the trailer comse out in a few days.
[AbiLuv] gstommylee: its kili
[Vince] you can be both girly and strong
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was not a female elven warrior serving in her father’s army, Pete. Big difference, fighting to defend yourself and military service.
[gstommylee] whops sorry
[gstommylee] kili
[AbiLuv]
[Elfriend] Vince – Galadriel
[ChristineGolden] More filler, Darkover?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] And that tells us what? Symbelmine
[Vince] Taruiel is like a security guard, right?
[Vince] Yeah Elfriend
[mib_vngh0v] it isn’t PJs fault Tolkien didn’t write in enough women into the stories
[gstommylee] but still i’m gonna wait and see both DOS and TABA before juding
[sauronswife] Huan defeated Sauron…
[Pete_R] haha, chrysophylax. Like “Luthien bats her eyelashes, Morgoth swoons?”
[ChristineGolden] No, she is supposedly captain of Thranduil’s guard.
[Darkover] possibly, Chris. I would prefer that to a moony “affair” between her an a dwarf
[gstommylee] on the romance
[serinde] sauronswife … right
[Smaug] I can’t wait for the trailer
[Vince] She might help to develop Legolas’s character more
[Smaug] I agree vince
[Vince] I know his relationship with his dad will help
[Pete_R] I see your point in that respect, Christine
[Raurenkili] yea
[flameofudun] me neither smaug does anyone think it is coming june 12th, right
[AbiLuv] I love Leggy – no matter how hard I try to hate him
[Raurenkili] lol
[Darkover] Actually, I would like to see the father-son relationship between Thranduil and Legolas explored at bit
[Smaug] I hope so
[gstommylee] flame the reports state online on the 12 in theaters with man of steel on the 14th
[Puma] jrr did only have a limited number of female elves…..however those ones had great power
[Vince] me too
[Darkover] or even a lot
[Amy] June 12th on Youtube
[Vince] I think they will explore it
[chrysophylax] I feel a Bugs Bunny gag coming on, Pete_R…:)
[Raurenkili] she trys t hate him for the sake of dwarves
[Demosthenes] “Tauriel’s relationship with Legolas is significant. They’ve known each other since they were children, and Legolas’ dad, Thranduil, has a soft spot for Tauriel and sees something very special in her.
[Raurenkili] lol
[Elemmire] yeah, me too darkover
[gstommylee] the question is 2mins 1 sec or 2mins 30 sec trailer
[Vince] I heard somewhere that Legolas will rebel against his father
[serinde] it will be interesting to see Legolas back in his dwarf-distrust mode
[ChristineGolden] mib_vngh0v: who rewrote Tolkien’s story, The Hobbit?
[Darkover] maybe Legolas trained her in the use of the bow
[Demosthenes] vince: speculation?
[Pete_R] But I still say that Luthien was as formidable (sp?) a warrior as anyone, even if she didn’t enlist in the army.
[flameofudun] that would make sense because it releases in the philipines on the 12th
[Darkover] I agree, Pete
[Smaug] I can’t wait to see the father-son relationship too, Darkover !
[serinde] I agree too, pete
[Puma] idril was armed and fought
[Darkover] Smaug,
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but my point is that females did not serve in the elves’ armies.
[Raurenkili] ah, Puma awakes
[sauronswife] I couldn’t remember if Idril or Aredhel or others where armed, thank you Puma.
[Pete_R] haha–yes, chrysophylax., Bugs would have done that bit well.
[Puma] and that is unlnown Christine…..they well might have
[sauronswife] All these different versions…
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, and if someone tried to come through my door, I’d be armed and fighting, too. Doesn’t mean I’m going into the Marines.
[mib_vngh0v] ChristineGolden PJ also brought more audiences to Tolkien’s original work… 12 million copies were sold in the first LOTR film year of the books
[Darkover] That kind of sums up my attitude as well, Chris!
[Elemmire] yuo
[Puma] even without pj.lotr has never been out of print
[Elemmire] yup eb
[Elemmire] even
[Elemmire] argh…
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I know, mib_vngh0v, PJ milked the Tolkien golden goose for every dollar he could.
[Puma] 1 of biggest sellers of all books in the 20th century
[Darkover] well, Chris, he is in the business to make money. If those movies didn’t make money, they would never be made.
[Puma] but yes.i am sure pj added some new readers
[mib_vngh0v] ChristineGolden Pj doesn’t care about money, he loves the books… you can see that in his interview
[Demosthenes] I think that’s getting a little off-topic.
[flameofudun] so is it confirmed that the trailer is coming on the 12th
[Darkover] The two motives are not necessarily mutually exclusive, mib
[Puma] pj has no clue as to what the books are about
[Symbelmine] [ChristineGolden] I believe that elven maidens didn´t serve in armies but every Mary Sue has to do something what general maidens don´t do.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Darkover. Lots of directors would have loved to do Tolkien, but Zaentz specifically chose Jackson.
[gstommylee] darkover plus doing a book as is into a movie wouldn’t exactly do so good in theaters.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] off topic?
[Puma] pj just sees the books as a starting point for his fantasy
[ChristineGolden] Mary Sue?
* sauronswife sighs.
[Darkover] That’s a bit harsh, IMO, Puma
[Elemmire] don’t even go there christine
[Amy] Agreed.
[Pete_R] Not totally true, . Peter stated that his first puprpose was tp make a movie that people would want to see. Not out pf greed, but because that’s what his obligation to the studio is.
[Smaug] mib_vngh0v I agree, PJ isn’t doing that for money, he loves the books
[Amy] I will defend PJ to the end.
[flameofudun] i agree as well
[Demosthenes] Hey, the topic is Tauriel. Not the motivations of the studios.
[Smaug] So will I
[ChristineGolden] There are hundreds of classic movies that stuck to the book, gstommylee. Ever heard of a film called, “To Kill a Mockingbird”?
[AbiLuv] Amy: PJ FTW
[Jenniearcheo] Poor Dems
[Amy]
[Erestel] PJ cares for the fans, but it’s obvious money is a key factor.
[gstommylee] CG yes and seen it
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Demosthenes let’s talk about Tauriek
[Pete_R] Sorry, Dems.
[Goldberry] Ok, tauriel
* Puma waves
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *Tauriel
[lunarising] So this Tauriel chick…
[Smaug] yeah, Tauriel
[Elemmire] well dems…we’ll move on and leave them to it
[flameofudun] back on topic
[Darkover] Chris, a “Mary Sue” is a fan fic written with the main character as an idealized version of the author, and usually a main canonical character, Legolas for example, falls in love with “Mary Sue.” They are notorious in fan fiction for being the sort of fic no one should write, or be expected to read.
[Jenniearcheo] What color was her hair again?
[Pete_R] (where did I put my *Stay On Topic* whip?)
[mib_vngh0v] why are purists discussing the movies and Tauriel, you clearly hate both
[Jenniearcheo] Lincoln green?
[Symbelmine] [ChristineGolden] Yes, that´s what this Tauriel reminds me of.
[ChristineGolden] I have to stop asking those kinds of questions. TY, Darkover.
[Darkover] lol, Chris, you’re welcome
[Elemmire] lol jennie
[ChristineGolden] Maybe for the same reason PJ’s fanboys and fangirls attend our book discussions and keep dragging in the film, mib_v
[sunshower] oy
[Elemmire] Tauriel…
[flameofudun] is tauriel the personal royal bodyguard for thranduil
[Jenniearcheo] You’re using that as an excuse to punish Demosthenes ?
[mib_vngh0v] um the topic was set Tauriel, not by me
[flameofudun] ?
[serinde] will it be Tauriel’s fault that Gollum escapes from the Elbes?
[Demosthenes] Have we yet considered how Tauriel may fit into Bilbo’s adventures in the woodland realm? And specifically in the escape of the dwarves?
[serinde] elves
[Darkover] I admit that my hopes aren’t high, but Tauriel may actually add something to the movie.
[Demosthenes] Because I would like to discuss that.
[sauronswife] That’s interesting serinde.
[flameofudun] doubt it, if she is so determined and responsible
[Darkover] do you think Tauriel will aid them, Demosthenes?
[gstommylee] Darkover: agreed
[Jenniearcheo] I did mention that there was speculation that she aids him in some way. I hope not. At least not on purpose or directly
[Demosthenes] Well … yes, i think perhaps so.
[Elemmire] I think, given my general opinion of tauriel so dat, she probably will
[ChristineGolden] I assume she will fulfill her role as captain of the guard.
[mib_vngh0v] anyways, Tauriel looks awesome from the photo, and i think she will have a relationship with Thorin, create some internal conflict to Thorin
[serinde] I think Tauriel will be suspicious that food is mysteriously disappearing, and doors opening
[Elemmire] *so far
[Demosthenes] Either by comission … or by omission.
[Pete_R] Ive heard rumors that she is the guard who gets drunk, or tht she helps them to escape because Kili (ot Fili?) is cute, etc. Nothing soild, obviously
[Darkover] Maybe her aid isn’t active. Maybe she feels Thranduil is wrong to imprison them, and looks the other way when they escape
[Demosthenes] omission would be more subtle.
[Elfriend] Dems – that falls into a chain of thought I have, how Tauriel may enrich the story.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps she’ll get the guard drunk
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] what do you think about the battle between orcs and elves (including Tauriel)? will there be an orc attack on the woodland realm while the dwarves were captured?
[Erestel] Oh, please, no relationships with Thorin…
[serinde] yes, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm jennie
[Demosthenes] Jenniearcheo: one possibility for sure!
[Darkover] Personally, I would prefer her doing that to actively giving them the keys, or something.
[ChristineGolden] So, if PJ follows canon, she’ll get drunk and Bilbo will help the dwarves escape, yes?
[Demosthenes] that would actually “tamper” very little with the story.
[Elemmire] yeah, me too darkover
[Darkover] or maybe, Chris, as someone here suggested, she will get the butler and turnkey drunk
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that would be the case yes.
[Amy] Darkover, I agree.
[Jenniearcheo] She could easily be one of the two drunks
[Raurenkili] only if her name was Galion
[Demosthenes] that might be a “sin of omission”
[Darkover] thank you, Amy and elmmire
[gstommylee] was it state specifically what the drunk elf was in the book that helped bilio and dwarfs escape?
[Erestel] Galion was the butler.
[Darkover] sorry, elemmire
[Elfriend] I can’t see Tauriel getting drunk.
[Pete_R] I’ve also heard that she may be somehwat humiliated because she was responsible for the dwarves’ escape
[Demosthenes] Yes, Galion is the butler.
[ChristineGolden] What artistic reason would PJ have for her not getting drunk?
[Darkover] only by getting drunk, gstommylee
[sauronswife] Me either Elfriend…
[Darkover] that way, Bilbo was able to steal the keys
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: more speculation?
[Elfriend] Possibly ‘turning coat’ but not getting drunk.
[gstommylee] i mean the character itself
[serinde] I think she’ll notice footsteps when they are returning to the halls … ‘hearing’ Bilbo following
[gstommylee] male elf female elf?
[flameofudun] yes and galion has been confirmed to be in the movie so he will be getting drunk
[chrysophylax] did somebody already suggest that she helps the dwarves?
[Elfriend] I think it would be tacky.
[ChristineGolden] So, why shouldn’t Tauriel?
[sauronswife] They did chrysophylax.
[Pete_R] gstommylee, the drunk elf slept, aloowing Bilbo to steal the cell keys
[Darkover] we’ve speculated that, chrysophylax
[Demosthenes] serinde: legolas has incredibly good eyesight. so … that may follow logically .. kenner senses.
[Smaug] that would be interesting if she noticed something odd happening, with the food disapearing and all
[Demosthenes] keener*
[serinde] thanks
[ChristineGolden] Is it tacky when the captain of the guard got drunk, or is it because she’s female?
* Elemmire has to go now….:(…..thanks for a good discussion everyone! Bye!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Girls can get drunk just as sloppily as boys!
[Demosthenes] Not sure what you mean christine.
[Goldberry] Bye
[Raurenkili] bye!
[ChristineGolden] bye, Elemmire.
[Darkover] bye, Elemmire
[sauronswife] Aww, bye Elemmire.
[Smaug] Bye
[Pete_R] bye, elemmire
[Elemmire] bye
[Raurenkili] bye Elemmire
[Demosthenes] seeya Elemmire
[Amy] Bye elemmire!
* AbiLuv waves
[Erestel] Farewell!
[flameofudun] bye
[Darkover] Jennie, *that* is something I would prefer to leave to the guys
* Raurenkili waves
[Jenniearcheo] You just have to hold their hair
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] oh girls just wanna have fun
[Elfriend] Dems – do you think it possible to have this character inclusion and the possible significant role she plays without taking away from other character time?
[Pete_R] rofl, Jennie
[Darkover] yeah, and getting drunk until you vomit is *such* fun
[ChristineGolden] Well, people keep coming up with all these changes to the story about the captain of the guard suddenly helping the dwarves escape, Demosthenes, instead of getting drunk.
[Erestel] That’s Dorwinion vintage for you.
[ChristineGolden] So, I was wondering if it was because she was female.
[serinde] we don\t know if she helps the dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Elfriend, because of the movies’ overall length.
[sauronswife] The Butler (what was his name) seemed a bit scatterbrained and Tauriel does not seem so….
[Jenniearcheo] I just hope she doesn’t get her hair caught in a cell door and someone has to cut it off.
[Darkover] I would prefer a scenario in which Tauriel believes the dwarves are locked up needlessly/wrongly, and thus looks the other way while they escape
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: well, /any/ character added will consume screen time. But, as a few have said, if Tauriel were to ignore bilbo and allow him to escape rather than actively plotting with him … then that could be wholly in keeping with the chapter.
[serinde] but perhaps during the negotiations …
[Demosthenes] Not sure that answers your question.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, Darkover
[sauronswife] That would be nice Darkover.
[flameofudun] galion was his name
[Darkover] we can but hope
[Demosthenes] But then bring backs the point: what is her motivation for doing so?
[Erestel] I’d be okay with that, Darkover.
[sauronswife] Galian.. Thanks.
[Demosthenes] Which syncs with Darkover’s point.
[Jenniearcheo] Pity release-from-prison for Kili?
[ChristineGolden] Not me, Darkover.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] I think in the beginning she’s totally on Thranduils side. Legolas does what to help the dwarves but Tauriel takes them prisoner, later she falls in love with Kili and changes her mind and helping them
[Darkover] If she thinks Thranduil was out of line, and the King won’t listen to reason,
[Darkover] then Tauriel might feel looking the other way is the right thing to do.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] *helps
[Demosthenes] Jenniearcheo: possibly! it’s not hard to see that thranduil is not very gracious.
[Darkover] It releases the prisoners without actively disobeying the King
[Demosthenes] on the other hand, nor is Thorin.
[Pete_R] Except from all I’ve heard about Tauriel, she’s not the “pity-release” type
[Darkover] maybe
[serinde] the enemy of my enemy is my friend … if she hates orcs & the dwarfs have already killed orcs … that could be her motivation
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: good point.
[Demosthenes] serinde: or spiders?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps this will cause a rift between her and Thranduil.
[Darkover] Oh, lord, I hope she doesn’t let the dwarves go/ look the other way because she is in love with one of them
[Demosthenes] That could do so.
[Smaug] Lieutenantofdolguldur I agree, I’m sure at first she’ll be entirely on Thranduil’s side
[Vince] ok, let’s talk about this
[Darkover] that just seems like such a sexist cliche
[Jenniearcheo] We don’t really know what went down in the palace after the dwarves escaped, after all
[Vince] why would she be interrogating an orc
[ChristineGolden] Even if it means violating Thrandruil’s trust and his “special affection” for her? That would make her pretty ungrateful to her Lord.
[Vince] is this orc one of Azog’s people?
[Jenniearcheo] Surely somebody’s figurative head would roll
[Demosthenes] Also, this seems like it will be the key role that Tauriel plays. in my opinion at least.
[Darkover] I assume, Vince, for the reasons anyone would be interrogating an orc
[Vince] or just a moria orc from which she learns about the dwarves adventure
[ChristineGolden] Maybe it’s Azog she beheads.
[Demosthenes] I actually don’t see her popping up much else except for BOFA.
[gstommylee] hmm
[gstommylee] why would she behead azog
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but if they follow the scenario I just suggested, it might be done in such a way as to suggest that Tauriel does not obey orders blindly
[AbiLuv] Chris: don’t count on it
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure she’s there when the elves show up to aid the Laketown refugees
[Erestel] That’s just getting absurd.
[Pete_R] Maybe the elves caoture one of Azog’s party, who are still pursuing Thorin?
[flameofudun] i think she will just turn a blind eye
[Vince] you know the problem with all these strong, fighting women?
[gstommylee] Azog is thorins arch-Nemesis
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] why even interrogating an orc?
[serinde] yes, the orcs must be following Thorin
[Vince] It really takes away from Eowyn’s big moment
[Demosthenes] Occam’s razor would lead me to conclude that flameofudun
[Darkover] to get information, Lieutenant
[Demosthenes] But i guess we’ll see.
[Vince] if we’ve already seen 2 or 3 female fighters before, Eowyn isn’t so special
[gstommylee] it would make zero sense to have Tauriel kill agoz
[flameofudun] yes and boy am i excited demosthenes
[Darkover] but PJ showed us Eowyn first, Vince
* Goldberry agrees with vince
[ChristineGolden] Because Azog will still be pursuing the Company, gstommylee.
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Darkover thanks I never understand the meening of interrogation
[Jenniearcheo] Eowyn’s human. But a sheildmaiden
[Pete_R] Also, isn’t Tauriel supposed to be a big deal in Thranduil’s army? Then if course, she would be at BoFA
[Erestel] I disagree, Vince. No fighting woman is going to overshadow the shieldmaiden who slew the Witch-king.
[Vince] well, he showed us Arwen being a fighter in fellowship
[sauronswife] You may be right, however I just love the idea too much, Vince.
[Elfriend] Vince – I see Eowyns battle as being entirely seperate.
[Elfriend] Eowyns battle is not about skill.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[flameofudun] weve seen tauriel, arwen and eowyn. thats not that much
[Vince] and now we will see Galadriel in battle apparently
[Vince] in this movie
[gstommylee] CG just cause they still pursing the company doesn’t mean she kills agoz
[ChristineGolden] If Tauriel turns a blind eye to the dwarves’ escape, she betrays Thrandruil’s trust and faith in her.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes.
[gstommylee] imo i see thorin kill agoz in the battle of 5 armies
[Raurenkili] yes
[Darkover] yeah, I agree with flameofudun. Three female warriors isn’t exactly overdoing it.
[Jenniearcheo] That’ll cause some tension
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yeah. that would “raise the stakes” as it were.
[ChristineGolden] Doesn’t mean she doesn’t either, gstommylee. We do know she beheads an orc.
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I think it would depend on how it was handled.
[Vince] for a middle ages type society it’s a lot
[sauronswife] That’s canon though, Galadriel fighting with the White Council to drive out the Necromancer.
[Smaug] I think she’ll have a key role with the dwarves inprisonement/escape, but I don’t think she’ll simply let them escape because she loves Kili, it’s too cliché
[Darkover] sauronswife is right
[Vince] I guess Elves don’t have gender roles like humans do
[Demosthenes] Vince: that’s an intersting thought.
[Darkover] I certainly hope you are right, Smaug, for the reasons you named
[Vince] if a female elf is captain of the guard
[Pete_R] True, ChristineGolden, that’s why I can’t see her letting them go on purpose. by mistake, maybe, which would cause her to be even more gung-ho. Torturing orcs ad stuff
[AbiLuv] Imo: Thorin and Azog essentially kill each other
[flameofudun] oh right. still eowyn is constantly denied ability to participate in battle, and she ends up fighting and slaying the witch king himself
[ChristineGolden] So, considering what the elves think of betrayal, especially over dwarves, I’d expect Thrandruil to punish her in some way. Not put her at the head of his troops at BoFA.
[gstommylee] abi thats one way to putting it
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] Darkover But does interrogation help? I mean… an orc is used to pain and torture.. will he talk? can an elf be more cruel than Azog or Sauron?
[Darkover] You’re assuming Thranduil would find out, Chris. We don’t know that he would.
[Demosthenes] Treason is regarded as “not cool” and “it’s time to pull out the gallows and the chopping block”.
[sauronswife] Agreed, Thorin vs Azog. :/ Or Beorn kills him.
[Goldberry] Didnt Dain kill azog(off topic i know)
[Jenniearcheo] Beorn tortures orcs
[Demosthenes] Would this sort of scenario be treason?
[Pete_R] ye, Goldberry
[Jenniearcheo] Depends on how obvious it is
[Darkover] You’re assuming Elves would use torture, Lieutenant. There are other ways of getting people to talk.
[Demosthenes] jennie: true.
[Goldberry] Ok,
[Vince] I think Dain will kill Azog
[Jenniearcheo] We know from her slip-of-the-Elven-tongue that she reports the cells empty
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the elves did not even torture gollum.
[Vince] isn’t he the one who killed him in the book?
[Jenniearcheo] Doesn’t mean she fesses up to deliberately aiding
[ChristineGolden] That’s the problem with changing the story, Darkover: one change leads to another leads to another…
[Darkover] Beorn kills orcs, jennie. I don’t know if he tortures them first.
[Elfriend] flameofudun – without going on a tangent here Eowyn does not herself slay the Witch King
[Jenniearcheo] But maybe he suspects . . .
[Pete_R] I can Dain at BoFA, when he sees Azpg? “What??? Didn’t I already kill you, laddie?”
[Jenniearcheo] Hence the tension
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Elves in general don’t seem to utilize torture.
[Demosthenes] jennie: that could work.
[Erestel] Yes, Vince. At a remarkably young age, too.
[Goldberry] Lol, pete
[flameofudun] hey guys a quick off topic shot, but the first desolation of smaug poster has been released online. there is a link in the forums
[Vince] the movie makes Dain out to be a bit of a coward so far
[Vince] he refuses to back the quest
[Darkover] That doesn’t mean he is a coward, Vince
[Demosthenes] flameofudun: ta
[Darkover] and that was probably done so the audience who haven’t yet read the book will know who Dain is
[Erestel] Not really, Vince. More of a “better safe than sorry” attitude.
[flameofudun] elfriend this was previously discussed many times and will be discussed continuosly in the future
[flameofudun] i will be right back
[serinde] dain, I assume, thinks it is a foolish quest … but he does come in for the treasure
[Pete_R] Right, Demosthenes, about torture.But if Tauriel is disgraced over the dwarves’ escape, she could be a little too zealous. Movie-stuff.
[Darkover] rather than wondering, “who is this guy?” when he and his troops show up at the Battle of the 5 Armies
* sauronswife nods to serinde.
[Demosthenes] jennie: i would think that a captain of guards aiding and abetting the enemy could look forward to a demotion at best.
[gstommylee] doesn’t Dain sees the quest as a lost cause hence why its the throins and co quest and their quest alone?
[Demosthenes] just to pursue that thought a bit further
[Demosthenes] (if caught)
[Vince] but I doubt casual movie watchers will remember one small line from the last movie a year later
[Jenniearcheo] Again, only if they’re caught
[Darkover] There will probably be other mentions of him, Vince
[Demosthenes] yes
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[ChristineGolden] I’d say probably more than a demotion, Demosthenes, if it were Thorin who escaped.
[Jenniearcheo] Metaphorical head rolls, as I said
[Jenniearcheo] We never “see” in the text what happens once they escape
[ChristineGolden] I’d think she would at least be imprisoned.
[Jenniearcheo] Could be anything
[sunshower] another new character? meta….?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Leggsy begs for lenience?
[sunshower]
[serinde] i must agree with one of the first comments … it has to be Bilbo\s wit that saves them
[Pete_R] True, Vince. It would be awkward for thorin to say”This is my cousin Dain, who, if you recall, was mentioned as refusing to help us in our quest, back in film one.”
[Demosthenes] serinde: i hope so too.
[Darkover] I certainly hope they stick to canon on that point, serinde
[Vince] exactly Pete
* sauronswife finds all these different points of view interesting and mulls over them.
[Jenniearcheo] I hope so, serinde. We’ll see
[ChristineGolden] Aiding and abetting the escape of a group of dwarves would earn someone more than a slap on the wrist from Thrandruil. At least, the Thrandruil shown in AUJ.
[AbiLuv] Pete_R: LOL
[Demosthenes] The other extreme is some sort of rear-guard action in the barrel room?
[Elfriend] flameofudun – and I shall always be around to discuss it, but we move on
[Jenniearcheo] It already looks like the elves will show up and if not actually free the Dwarves themselves from the spiders, at least fight off an orc attack or something immediately after
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure I can see that happening tho
[Pete_R] Hello, sunshower (didn’t get to do that earlier) tyvm AbiLuv
[Vince] Maybe Taurel will do everything: kill Azog, Bolg, drive out the Necromancer single handeled, teach Legolas how to shoot a bow and she will take Bard’s place and kill Smaug
[Elfriend] x D
[Erestel] Tauriel becomes Queen Under the Mountain.
[Jenniearcheo] I told you, Vince. She’s a serial killer. Nobody listens
[Elfriend] lol
[sauronswife] Tauriel doesn’t have such level of sorcery to do those things XD
[Goldberry] Lol vince
[Vince] She will kill Thorin too :p
[sauronswife] ERm enchantment…
[sauronswife] Magic.
[Vince] and Kili for having a crush on her
[Darkover] I assume that was Vince’s idea of humor, sauronswife
[serinde] i remember when FotR trailers first came out, people were up in arms over the warrior attitude of Arwen … do you think we will like a female elven warrior?
[LieutenantOfDolGuldur] and he might be a shapeshifter too and is the moth that helps Gandalf multiple times in LOTR
[sunshower] hiya Pete_R
[sauronswife] I know. Vince
[Vince] and then Fili will weep over his brother so she kills him to spare his pain
[Elfriend] “Silly She-Elf, you cannot slay me-”
[Darkover] Some will, some won’t
[Goldberry] Lolollolo, vince!!!
[Elfriend] x D
[ChristineGolden] I won’t, serinde, but I’m sure PJ’s fans will, for the most part, love her. I don’t understand the feminist support for her, though.
[Elfriend] Vince, you just went up in my ratings
[serinde] but weren’t we always disappointed when Maid Marion never took up arms with Robin Hood?
[Vince]
[Pete_R] haha, Elfried. Or “Silly She-Elf — Wars are for guys.” (Trix commercial reference)
[serinde] to get really off topic
[Darkover] I understand it, Chris, because other than Galadriel and Eowyn, most of Tolkien’s female characters seem passive, and stay at home a lot
[sauronswife] I guess I’d find the joke funnier if Tauriel started out with higher level “magic”.
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, okay. So do we have any further avenues to discuss Tauriel?
[Pete_R] Elfriend ^^^
[sunshower] shoe size?
[Demosthenes] Aspects that we haven’t considered so far.
[ChristineGolden] Well, I believe in equal rights, Darkover, and I think it’s insulting.
[Vince] Tauriel is feminist…for the 70′s. She seems the female warrior trope to me. That’s great but I hope we see other sides to her too instead of just as a killer. I hope she’s a three dimensional character.
[Pete_R] Since we’re mostly guessing, prolly not, Demz.
[serinde] is 600 years … is she an adult
[gstommylee] Darkover: if PJ wants to really throw a wrench in it he’ll have a female dwarf in the battle of 5 armies battling orcs
[Darkover] It’s true that we don’t have much to go on.
[Elfriend] See, I thought this was win win. Guys get to watch Dwarves giving hide and Girls get to gaga over hot dwarves..
[sauronswife] I can see both sides of it, the feminist side and pro-Tolkien end.
[ChristineGolden] “Tolkien didn’t add enough strong female characters, so we have to add some. Otherwise, women won’t like the movies.”
[Elfriend] ‘kicking hyde’
[Darkover] Since male and female dwarves apparently look just alike, how would we know, gstommylee?
[sunshower] a wench? in BoFA? PJ’d have to be hammered
[serinde] but you won’t know if there is a female dwarf because of the beard
[ChristineGolden] Puh-lease.
[Vince] it is good to have more women
[Pete_R] gstommylee, maybe, but how could you tell.
[Darkover] Actually, Chris, that probably is what they were thinking when they added Tauriel
[sauronswife] And yes I want Tauriel to be a three-dimentional character also.
[flameofudun] im back
[Demosthenes] If I was going to add one, i would have gone for more. Just to take the focus off Tauriel.
[serinde] definitely 3 dimensional
[Vince] maybe there will be a twist with her
[sauronswife] Hahahaha! Dem.
[Demosthenes] I’m serious!
[Vince] maybe she will turn to Sauron’s side and become evil?
[Darkover] BTW, I can’t vouch for it, but from what I understand, Tolkien added the character of Eowyn when his daughter complained that all the characters were male, and females didn’t get to do anything in the story.
[serinde] demo… we don’t know that there aren\t more
[Demosthenes] I really would have. Do it properly, or don’t do it.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Darkover, I think they were thinking of something entirely different and the fem-lib thing is just their angle to explain the inclusion of Tauriel.
[Pete_R] wb, flame
[Demosthenes] serinde: they would have announced the casting earlier.
[serinde] I suspect there were female warriors at Helm’s Deep
[Demosthenes] So i conclude there will be no others.
[serinde] not if they were just extras
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to tell under that armor
[serinde] the elves that make up the whole army
[Demosthenes] oh. well, no, i mean character actors. more than extras. extras don’t really count.
[Jenniearcheo] They don’t all have to have brunhilde breastplates
[Demosthenes] EL is really a character actor in this role i think.
[serinde] they do if you are counting females
[Raurenkili] Elves did NOT fight at helms deep in the book
[Goldberry] Someone mentioned age-600 sounds quite young to me
[Demosthenes] yes we know Raurenkili
[serinde] yes, we know
[Erestel] We know, Raurenkili.
[Pete_R] WE know
[AbiLuv] but it was cool anyway XD
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: elves grow up quick. really quick.
[Raurenkili] and other than that, ALL the women and children were not in war
[Pete_R] haha
[Darkover] for an elf, 600 is young, Goldberry, although it is an adult
[serinde] yes, we don’t know the aging of elves
[Raurenkili] yes
[Vince] she’s a fiery redhead who is a ruthless killer and interrogates orcs as captain of he Mirkwood guard and is close to Thraundriel and we must assume Legolas. That’s all we know of her.
[serinde] she is head of the guard, but
[flameofudun] so what date would that be? just wondering what major events she was born in
[Erestel] We’re left to assume Elves age the same way as men until adulthood.
[Demosthenes] vince: and has some sort of unknown romance.
[ChristineGolden] And she has a love interest, Vince, probably Kili.
[Jenniearcheo] We also know she reports the empty cells
[Darkover] if you’re an orc, that is all you need to know, Vince
[Vince] lol
[Vince] right
[Demosthenes] oh jennie i’d forgotten that. true!
[serinde] what year was Elrond’s wife captured by orcs?
[flameofudun] wait demosthenes that bit is confirmed?
[sauronswife] I can’t remember..
[Pete_R] Hard to be sure, Erestel. I can honestly say that I can’t recall Tolkien writing specifically about a single elf child.
[sauronswife] I’m not good with years.
[Demosthenes] flameofudun: the cells thing? well, EL quoted that line in a red carpet thing.
[Demosthenes] But, will it end up on the cutting room floor? We’ll see. we know it must be being considered.
[sauronswife] It’s stated in Laws and customs that Elves reach their full height at 50 and are considered adults at 100. There was other details but I can’t remember them.
* sauronswife needs an ecopy of Morgoth’s Ring…
[Vince] Maybe Kili will lighten Taruiel up and make her less serious and aggressive and laugh a little. Chick flick style. Then she sees Kili die in the BOTFA and goes on a killing rampage before she goes out in a blaze of glory herself
[serinde] thanks, sauronswife
[Jenniearcheo] I like it, Vince
[Raurenkili] cool idea vince
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was only half-elven, but Tolkien did speak of Earendil (briefly) as a child.
[sauronswife] Welcome serinde.
[Pete_R] Kili = another notch on Tauriel’s lipstick case?
[Vince] I really think she will die in the third movie
[serinde] Dior, Elrond & Elros, too, Chris
[Vince] otherwise they’d have to explain why we never see her again
[gstommylee] vince well i think it can be done imo
[serinde] really, why not just leave her in the north?
[Darkover] or she sails to valinor
[Erestel] Gwindor was an elf who participated at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and he was only 45 when he died.
[gstommylee] really depends on where BOFA ends in the 3rd movie
[serinde] wow
[Darkover] doomed youth
[Vince] oo, maybe Legolas will blame the Dwarves for her death..hence furthering his prejudice. She died because Kili put the charms on her
[Demosthenes] Erestel: that is young for an elf.
[ChristineGolden] I was trying to think of a child who was involved in the events, serinde.
[Raurenkili] Erestel, Gwindor did not die in the nirnaeth
[Darkover] Elrond and Elros, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] I think so, Vince. I think it will change the way we see Legolas’s distrust of dwarves at the Council in FOTR
[serinde] Elrond & Elros were children when Elwing threw herself into the se
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: he said participated.
[serinde] sea
[Vince] yeah, this is all really good actually
[sauronswife] Yeah *sighs sadly* Tauriel will probably kick the bucket, I just hope she dies awesomely without affecting Kili/FiliThorin’s deaths.
[Raurenkili] he said 45 when he died
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t remember anything about their childhood, Darkover, other than they’re being mentioned by name and the half-elven thing.
[Vince] the more we see of racist Legolas, the more powerful his relationship with Gimli will be
[Raurenkili] ah well
[Smaug] I should go, its 1:20 in the morning here and I’ve got two weeks of exams before me… It was really nice talking with you guys
[serinde] vince, good point
[Demosthenes] night smaug!
[sauronswife] Farewell Smaug.
[chrysophylax] Did Legolas ever actually leave the Mirkwood Forest before he attended the
[Smaug] thanks
[chrysophylax] Great Council?
[Jenniearcheo] True. Gimli might redeem dwarves in his eyes
[Vince] night Smaug! Good luck on the exams!
[Demosthenes] Okay, final points on our topic?
[Darkover] Chris, their mother Elwing did a bunk–jumped out the window with a silmaril, rather than let Maedhros and Maglor capture it and her.
[Erestel] True, Raurenkili, but he died shortly afterward.
[serinde] he knew who Aragorn was
[Pete_R] cheer, Smaug
[Demosthenes] Otherwise I’m calling the topic officially done.
[Darkover] She left her twin sons behind, and Maglor fostered them–Elrond and Elros
[serinde] yes, darkover
[Darkover] I think we are done with Tauriel, Demsothenes
[Darkover] sorry, Demosthenes
* sauronswife nods…
[Pete_R] I second the motion, Demz
[ChristineGolden] Ah, you’re right, Darkover, I forgot about Maglor fostering them, etc.
[sauronswife] It was a good discussion.
[serinde] yep, exhausted what little facts we know
[Vince] final point? Hmmm…Taruiel could be okay if she’s not written as a Mary Sue or as too powerful and if she is used moderately and doesn’t drag the story in a different direction.
[Maglor] ]_]
[serinde] yes
[ChristineGolden] Not for me, Vince.
[Demosthenes] Thank you everyone for an interesting and sometimes quite passionate chat. Hope you all enjoyed.
[Darkover] Yes, Vince, let us hope PJ and co. understand that.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for hosting, Dems
[serinde] thanks Demo
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers
[Darkover] we did, Demosthenes, as always!
* sauronswife agrees with Vince.
[Demosthenes] Oh, and next weekend we are on the road to isengard.
[Pete_R] thank *you,* Demosthenes
[Goldberry] It was great dem
[Maglor] They’re taking the Hobbits to Isengard!
[Goldberry] Cya all!
[Demosthenes] shoosh
[Pete_R] Are we taking the hobbits with us, Demz?
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for next weekend: Two Towers. Book III Chapter VIII: the road to isengard. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Jun 09 09:32:44 2013

A couple of weekends ago, we dived into the big battle of The Two Towers as we discussed Helm’s Deep (Book III, Chapter VII) in Hall of Fire.

For those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log. And a reminder: tomorrow (Saturday June 15 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be moving onto the next chapter as we examine the events of The Road to Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Jun 02 07:33:34 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for this weekend: Helm’s Deep | General TORn chat that-a-way! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Okay, we might as well get started. Latecomers can catch up.
[Puma] okie
[ChristineGolden] Okay, back.
[esther] ok
[Stozzi] ok boss man :3
[Eruanna] Okay
[Demosthenes] Was I the only one to note that this chapter is much shorter than the preceding one?
[Puma] all battle chapters in lotr are short
[Demosthenes] Yeah. And that’s really rather interesting.
[esther] I have to be honest, I haven’t gotten to Two Towers yet, so I really only know the movie battle scene
[Puma] i dont think jrr wanted to dwell on the battle itself
[Demosthenes] You get some (pulp) fantasy novelists who base their entire works around battle and hack n slash. But not Tolkien.
[esther] probably not Puma
[Puma] also…..jrr did one battle in detail……the nirnaeth in the sil…i dont think he thought he could top that
[Ingie] nirnaeth is hardly toppable hello, by the way
[esther] that’s Silmarillion right Puma?
[Puma] and also as a vet….i am sure battles did not bring back good memories
[Demosthenes] Do you think we still get the feel of “war buddies” coming through though?
[Puma] yes esther
[Demosthenes] As in, friendship forged in the crucible of war.
[esther] I have to get some more Tolkien books
[Puma] i think we see that…jrr made that point.big friendships werwe forged in this chapter
[esther] I believe so Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt after his experiences in WWI, Tolkien was interested in guts and gore.
[esther] I agree
[Eruanna] I think so, like with Eomer and Aragorn they often say they want to ride into battle together
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i wonder at that also… and that might explain the conciseness of this chapter.
[Puma] yes Eruanna
[Puma] but also eomer and gimli
[Demosthenes] puma: Eomer and Aragorn … Legolas and Gimli?
[Erestel] And of course, Legolas and Gimli with their kill-count game.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] To some extent Theoden and Aragorn also.
[esther] Legolas and Gimli became fast friends during battle
[Puma] but legolas and gimli were not together in the battle
[Demosthenes] Though perhaps that is more a commander/chief advisor role?
[Puma] they were friends since lorien
[Demosthenes] s/role/relationship
[Ingie] the characters don’t really perceive the battles as bloody and gory mess, do they?
[Stozzi] i liked the challenge that legolas and gimli had through out that battle , counting how many orcs they’d killed
[Ingie] it’s more of a simple good/evil contest
[Eruanna] I think their friendship was strengthened in the battle
[Puma] not really.lots of greys
[Puma] legolas and gimli were not together during the battle!!
[esther] Ingie I don’t think they saw the battles as bloody messes, I think they saw it for what it was, saving their world
[Demosthenes] Ingie: no, you see that more from the perspective of the hobbits. Sam with the Easterling. And Merry and Pippin’s perspective at the Pelennor.
[Puma] i dont think they saw it as saving the world……just survive the battle
[esther] I agree with Demosthenes, Ingie
[Demosthenes] And that’s an interesting dualism too. Helm’s Deep gets very much a heroic, broad brush portrayal. Rather than a gritty, realistic one.
* Puma nods
[ChristineGolden] That had to have been a very bloody battle, ester, with axes and swords. I think Tolkien preferred to dwell on other aspects.
[Eruanna] Puma, from memory I think they say to people to tell the other how many they’ve killed and also ask if they have seen them
[Darkover] Mae govannen, Chris and everyone!
[Puma] but did you all notice…..when gandalf left the riders….he knew the ents were at isengard
[Demosthenes] heya Darkover
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Darkover] Hi, Demosthenes and Puma!
[Darkover] What are we discussing?
[esther] of course he wanted to concentrate on something other then the battles
[Puma] legolas saw the shadow coming to isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Stozzi] Yes cause gandalf spoke with the ents, when treebread had merry and pippen right?
[Demosthenes] Helm’s Deep. And … the heroic nature of the battle in its portrayal.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover!
[Puma] also the battles of the fords of isen contribute to this chapter…as the end parts of that in UT.took place at the same time
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[ChristineGolden] What do you mean by ‘heroic,’ Demosthenes?
[esther] Hi Baumbart
[Darkover] Hey, Baumbart
[Demosthenes] If i wanted to pick some elements that I think reinforce that feeling most, I’d pick the charge of Theoden at the end, and the horn of helm and its effect on the opposing host of orcs.
[esther] as the heroic part?
[Puma] i think of aragorn standing on the ramparts…and warning the uruks and dunlendings
[ChristineGolden] Okay, I agree with those ones, but I didn’t really think the chapter was ‘heroic’ in the traditional sense.
[esther] what is “heroic” in the traditional sense
[Puma] that is why jrr was so good.he is not traditional
[Demosthenes] puma: yes, that is an odd parley as well.
[Darkover] I personally like it when Aragorn and Eomer draw swords together–for the first time, I believe
[ChristineGolden] Medieval, ester, as in knights in shining armor, etc.
[esther] well I guess I’m more into non-traditional
[Ingie] also, there wasn’t the conflict of slaughtering the dunlendings (while the haradrim were shown to be real humans worth of pity)… so once again, balck/white heroism here. No ambiguity
[Puma] i know people always think of rohan as medieval.jrr said it was not
[Ingie] because the dunlendings weren’t really mentioned, at least not their deaths
[brennil] we don’t need knights in shining armer…Rangers in cloaks work better
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t sat that Rohan was medieval, Puma. I was speaking of the battle itself.
[Puma] well no Ingie.the dunlendings surrendered and were given terms and released
[Darkover] If we wanted shades of gray, Ingie, we would probably read modern novels. Personally, I like the fact that in a fairy tale, good and evil are pretty clear-cut
[esther] I agree Brennil I prefer rangers over knights
[Erestel] The Silmarillion had plenty of grey characters, but that’s another discussion.
[esther] I agree Darkover, I love fairy tales for being so clear
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover, with people having to take a stand for one or the other. And nothing does that more than a battle.
[Puma] lotr all the characters are grey
[Darkover] True, Chris and Esther
[Darkover] just the cloaks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Ingie] I love lotr and the good/evil contest simply saying that this is not the case of gritty realistic war
[Puma] nope.people
[Darkover] and the occasional wizard
[esther] lol true it is the cloaks that are grey
[brennil] gritty realistic war is more about greed than good/evil
[Puma] so do you all see the contest between legolas and gimli as to who killed the most…an enviable trait
[esther] I agree again Brennil, real war is about greed
[Demosthenes] puma: It has a sort of gallows humour about it.
[ChristineGolden] No, ester, all wars are about power at their roots. Even the one we’re supposed to be talking about.
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] Aragorn never counted
[brennil] nope, Puma. I see the pity and little bloodlust more enviable
[Darkover] Frankly, Puma, I don’t have a problem with it. When the enemy is knocking down your door, trying to kill innocent people, I frankly don’t blame someone who takes a bit of pride in how many he has killed
[Demosthenes] It’s the sort of things soldiers in the trenches might do to try and stop themselves going mad.
[Darkover] If that is bloodthirsty, then pass the Type O
[Puma] just making a point….no person in lotr is “perfect”
[Elemmire] lol
[Elemmire] its true though
[esther] well Chris at least there’s a clear line between good and evil in fantasy, the the real world its not so clear
[ChristineGolden] Patton’s men nailed the ears of German soldiers they had killed to posts.
[Xanaseb] ouch
[ChristineGolden] Really, ester? Because I can think of a list of wars that were between good and evil.
[Puma] and was that “good” Christine?
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking of fighter and bomber squadrons that would mark kills on the fuselages of their planes.
[brennil] they were already dead, Xanaseb
[ChristineGolden] I think so, Puma, but ymmv.
[Xanaseb] still brutal.
[Xanaseb] in anycase
[brennil] I think the lack of respect for enemies shown after death is not a good thing
[Xanaseb] indeed
[Darkover] And I’ve heard of soldiers, in many wars, who would put notches on their rifles for every enemy they killed. It doesn’t shock me.
[Puma] i think jrr was making the point that war is brutal…..and people do things that are normally not in character
[Elemmire] I agree with demosthenes, it does seen like a way of keeping focussed on something
[Xanaseb] indeed Puma.
[esther] in the real world, there aren’t any wars nowadays that have a fine line between good and evil, but that’s just my own opinion, no one has to agree with me
[Elemmire] agree, puma
[brennil] good point Puma and Elemmire
[Darkover] Probably, Elemmire
[Demosthenes] No, I’m not at all shocked. How do we know that Von Ritchofen was the best flying ace in WWI? Someone kept count.
[Eruanna] I think that on ships they used to put notches in cannons for how many battles they were in… or something similar
[Puma] oh.its not shocking.thats the point.was is brutal and people do things not really to be proud about
[Elemmire] So, we can conclude lots of people did it
[Puma] war is brutal
[Darkover] It seems to me that in war, people do what they have to do, and never having been in combat myself, I am not going to judge anyone who keeps a tally or the like, if it helps them get through it.
[Demosthenes] That being said, it is possibly more notable that Aragorn /does not/ keep count.
[Demosthenes] Why do you think?
[Darkover] Maybe he stopped counting long ago, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] and aragorn probaly killed more than legoalas and gimli
[brennil] he is quite old
[esther] that was interesting to me, that Aragorn never kept count
[brennil] and Legolas and Gimli were having “friendly” competition
[Puma] Aragorn is way younger than either legolas or gimli
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one possibility. he seems to have fought for both rohan and gondor in his youth.
[Darkover] And has fought many battles, for Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[brennil] :s oh. miscaculation.
[Darkover] Is Aragorn younger than Gimli?
[Elemmire] well, we don’t know that he never counted…he just didn’t make light of it as legolas and gimli did
[Puma] yes
[Puma] by many yrs
[esther] yes everyone in all the realms seem to know Aragorn way before the time of LOTR
[Elemmire] it is probable that legolas has been in many battles, given how old he is
[Erestel] Yes, Darkover. I think Gimli was around 160 years old during The Lord of the Rings.
[Puma] gimli was 62 in 2941 when aragorn was 10 in the hobit
[Xanaseb] I know this might sound silly, but maybe it is done in a more humorous way?.. that they are counting usually brings a smile to the reader’s face.. .. I think we might be thinking a little too much into this
[Xanaseb] IMO.
[Darkover] Possibly, Xanaseb
[Puma] agreed Xana
[Demosthenes] Aragorn also has more of a commander’s responsibilities here.
[Elemmire] Yeah, I think that it can be seen either way
[Erestel] My mistake, Gimli was 140.
[Demosthenes] He virtually acts as Theoden’s second in command
[Darkover] Also very true, Demosthenes
[Puma] well…..no.he was just a knight serving theoden
[Demosthenes] Eomer defers to him
[Darkover] And Aragorn props up Theoden’s morale, as I recall
[ChristineGolden] afk
[brennil] mutual respect?
[Puma] again aragorn and eomer were separated at the major part of the battle
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes he does seem to do that.
[Elemmire] A lot of that, of course being Aragorn being who he is
[Darkover] Agreed, Elemmire
[Elemmire] if anyone understood that…
[Eruanna] Perhaps Theoden sees him as a king or a rightful one and therefore respected him and saw him as an equal
[Elemmire] Aragorn does have tha bility to make people follow him but would they have, if they didn’t know who he was
[Darkover] I understand it to mean that Aragorn is a leader, and that is obvious in his conduct, although he never tries to overrule or overreach King Theoden
[Puma] this chapter also forges what will be a lifelong bond between aragorn and eomer
[Elemmire] *the ability
[Darkover] Right, puma
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] Darkover: he does defer to Theoden’s right to command his men. One wonders whether he doubted Theoden’s decision to ride out at the dawn.
[Puma] Aragorn understood the minds of the rohirrim.as he had been among them b4
[Elemmire] uh…I have a question
[Demosthenes] sure
[Darkover] If he did doubt it, he seems to have kept it to himself
[ChristineGolden] fussy baby – maybe I’ll have better luck next week. gotta go~ ~ ~
[Darkover] bye, Chris
[Darkover] ask away, Elemmire
[Xanaseb] go ahead Elemmire.
[Erestel] We’re all ears.
[Elemmire] The men of Rohan are referred to as many things, Rohirrim, Eorlingas etc. Is there any difference in these terms and, if so, can someone explain please?
[Puma] they all mean horse people
[Darkover] Didn’t rohirrim mean “horse lords,” and Eorlingas mean the people of Eorl the Young?
[Demosthenes] Eorlingas is something like sons of Eorl.
[esther] good question Elemmire, I’ve been wondering what each one meant
[Puma] yes.
[Erestel] Rohirrim is the general term for a man of Rohan. Eorlingas is a term used for men descended from Eorl the Young. There are also Helmlingas, men descended from Helm Hammerhand.
[Puma] but eo means horse
[Darkover] I think Rohan was the name of their kingdom that was given them by the people of Gondor–the name, that is
[Eruanna] I think they have different linguistic origins, but i may be wrong
[Darkover] and I think their name for themselves was Eorlingas
[Puma] in rohan their country was called the riddermark
[Stozzi] arent the people of rohan known as the horse people ? (cant think of correct name for this XD)
[esther] all I know is that Rohan is the realm of the horse-lords
[Stozzi] THERE we go thanks esther :’D
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, sorry I’m late. I was on an archaeological dig at a Late Woodland Indian village with the Fell Beasts
[Demosthenes] Helmlingas would probably be specifically used FOR and ABOUT the men of Westfold.
[esther] you’re welcome Stozzi
[Puma] roch is horse in sindarin
[Demosthenes] That’s my guess anyhow.
[Darkover] Hello, jennie! Hope you and the fell beasts had a good dig
[Elemmire] There’s so many different terms, thank you
[Puma] eo is horse in rohirric
[Elemmire] hey jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks!
[Elemmire] I’m less confused now
[Puma] gday jennie
[Jenniearcheo] gday
[Xanaseb] Jennie hey
[Jenniearcheo] Seb
[Xanaseb] Lasak hey
[Lasak] hello
[esther] I’m not confused anymore either about the different names of the horse-lords
[Jenniearcheo] I missed it. But I’ll live
[Demosthenes] Perhaps at this point it might be good to return to the chapter, and the intelligence that draws Gandalf away.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] And leads him to tell Theoden to head for Helm’s Deep
[Elemmire] hmm
[Lasak]
[Puma] Leolas saw the shadow decending towards isengard.gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] first this: ‘Many miles lie between,’ said Legolas, gazing thither and shading his eyes with his long hand. ‘I can see a darkness. There are shapes moving in it, great shapes far away upon the bank of the river; but what they are I cannot tell. It is not mist or cloud that defeats my eyes:
[Darkover] One of the men of the guard made a crack about Gandalf’s abrupt departure
[Demosthenes] there is a veiling shadow that some power lays upon the land, and it marches slowly down stream. It is as if the twilight under endless trees were flowing downwards from the hills.’
[Elemmire] How does he know?
[Darkover] elf-eyes
[Elemmire] I love the description in that part of the chapter btw. And of the sunset as well
[Puma] legolas could not see the ents.just the shadow they caused
[Elemmire] Sorry, how does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew what that meant
[Demosthenes] That is a good question. How does Gandalf know?
[Puma] gandalf knew merry and pippin were with the ents
[esther] I thought Elves could see anything
[Demosthenes] And for what degree of know?
[Lasak] So he kinda used the people of Rohan as a bait?
[Puma] and had also seen treebeard
[Puma] so knew that the ents would have to react
[Darkover] no, Lasak, he just got the Rohirrim–and Theoden–moving, which had to be done
[Elemmire] ah
[Demosthenes] Well, that’s not /know/, that’s an educated guess surely?
[Puma] and gandalf also knew that ents move in “shadows”
[jamie] just a question does anyone know if the nre Desolation of smaug trailers arriving soon? as it must be
[Elemmire] ok puma
[Elemmire] thanks
[Demosthenes] jamie: dunno.
[esther] I heard its arriving on June 14th Jamie
[Stozzi] ok one battle i really like was battle of pelenor (off topic but just saying :3)
[Puma] i dont think it was an educated guess…..gandalf knew
[Xanaseb] Greeny
[jamie] its arriving with the man of steel film I heard the same
[Demosthenes] Then how did he know?
[esther] I agree Stozzi, I loved that one too
[esther] right Jamie
[Darkover] Whether he knew for a fact or not, Gandalf realized this was something that needed his attention
[jamie] right anywaqy thanks bfn
[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Darkover: the arrival of Ceorl seems to have tipped the balance
[Puma] gandalf knew what a bunch of ents and huorns looked like when on the move
[Darkover] Much of this book involves Gandalf encouraging people at one front, only to set off for another and do the same
[esther] who is Ceorl?
[Demosthenes] Things have gone evilly since Théodred fell. We were driven back yesterday over the Isen with great loss; many perished at the crossing. Then at night fresh forces came over the river against our camp. All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us.
[Jenniearcheo] Hey, LL
[Xanaseb] LL!
[Elemmire] Gandalf gets people to do stuff, they do it, he gets other people to do other stuff.Basically
[Demosthenes] then gandalf says:
[lorienslady] Hiya Jennie and Xana
[Demosthenes] ‘Ride, Théoden!’ he said. ‘Ride to Helm’s Deep! Go not to the Fords of Isen, and do not tarry in the plain! I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand.’ Turning to Aragorn and Éomer and the men of the king’s household, he cried: ‘Keep well the Lord of the Mark, till I return. Await me at Helm’s Gate! Farewell!’
[Elemmire] hey lady
[Darkover] Right, Elemmire
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[Puma] it was gandalfs job to unite all the parties
[Demosthenes] It’s more Ceorl’s new that prompts Gandalf.
[Xanaseb] *news
[Xanaseb]
[Stozzi] hmm most of the things gandalf has done has influenced a lot through out of the books if you thing about it
[Darkover] And it was also his job, had been from the beginning, to encourage people to resist Sauron–and in this context, Saruman, too
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[esther] I really need to get to reading the books lol
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[Puma] well.no….when ceorl arrived with the news.gandalf knew not to bother with the fords anymore
[Demosthenes] esther: one of Erkenbrand’s soldiers. A survivor of the battle of the fords of the isen.
[Darkover] You won’t regret it, Esther
[esther] oh thanks Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Yeah, I agree with puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Me, too
[Jenniearcheo] fwiw
[Puma] and then gandalf also knew..that he needed the ents help…….as b4 he had no idea of the numbers saruman was sending
[esther] Darkover, I’ve been trying to get through the first one
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[Elemmire] yeah
[Demosthenes] Could the Rohirrim have defeated the orcs in a field battle?
[esther] I’ve watched the movies over 100 times just haven’t gotten through the books yet
[Darkover] The first starts out slow, Esther, give it time
[Puma] to few for a field battle
[Darkover] I doubt it, Demosthenes
[esther] what do u mean by that question Demosthenes
[Stozzi] yet the ents decided to sit and debate on it for ages , until merry and pippen convinced treebeard to pass isengard ?
[Elemmire] I think it depends how many
[Elemmire] Not the whole host
[Elemmire] there were waaaaaay to many
[esther] you are right Darkover, I need to be motivated to read it lol
[Demosthenes] esther: well, Helm’s Deep is essentially a seige battle.
[Puma] merry and pippin did no such thing
[Puma] that is just movie Stozzi
[Puma] which is wrong
[Lasak] helms deep is a strong castle
[Jenniearcheo] which is different
[Puma] the hornburg is the fortress
[Stozzi] Ah but they did have a meeting at the entmoot though right? (need to read book again)
[esther] ok well I think the rohirrim could defeat the orcs no matter where they are
[Puma] the entmoot itself decided to atack
[Darkover] They did. And Merry and Pippin did serve a purpose
[Elemmire] Yeah, but pip and merry werent there
[Eruanna] I don’t think they would have won, the uruk hai managed to break the deeping wall which had stood strong over many seiges
[Elemmire] they were off with the ;hasty’ ent
[Puma] actually after the entmoot began merry and pippin went off with brealad
[Darkover] Maybe, Esther, but I think that if the Rohirrim had fought the Orcs in the field, even if the Rohirrim won, I fear it would have been a Pyrric victory
[Puma] bregalad
[Jenniearcheo] Well, . . . at this point, it’s moot
[Jenniearcheo] ar ar
[Elemmire] him
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] lol, jennie
[esther] Darkover, Pyrrick?
[Puma] theoden only had 1000 men.not enough for an open field battle
[Puma] gamling had another 1000 at hornburg
[Darkover] Esther, that means that the price the Rohirrim would have had to pay in lives, in order to “win,” would have been so high that it wouldn’t have been worth it
[Demosthenes] Alexander the great often fought outnumbered
[Demosthenes] and won.
[Puma] so enough to defend.not to attack
[Eruanna] Pyrric is a victory when the cost of the victory makes it worthless ie the death of eveyone
[esther] oh ok yeah that is true I guess
[Demosthenes] Eruanna: “another such victory shall be the end of us”
[Darkover] Lots of leaders have fought outnumbered and won, Demosthenes, Just as lots have fought outnumbered and lost
[Lasak] well i think they could have met them in open fields
[Darkover] or had a Pyrrhic victory–thank you, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: true enough!
[Lasak] with archers on horses
[Xanaseb] hehe
[Lasak] running close and away again
[Puma] Theoden went to helms deep.cause he knew he had no chance in the open
[esther] I agree Darkover, there have been many victories no matter the count of men in the victor’s camp
[Elemmire] probab;y killled the horses with exhaustion though lasak…
[Demosthenes] Well, he went there cuz Gandalf told him to.
[Elemmire] yeah darkover
[Puma] and knew it was correct
[Lasak] damn.. i forgot about the horses couldn’t run forever
[Puma] gandalf is an advisor.not ruler
[Elemmire] and gandalf know everything…
[Demosthenes] Would Theoden have rejected bad advice?
[Lasak] even if it is the horses of the people of rohan
[Demosthenes] Interesting thought.
[Darkover] I think Theoden had learned by this time that Gandalf did not give bad advice.
[Elemmire] Uh…Theoden listened to Wormtongue for however long it was…not so good with distinguishing bad advice
[esther] well he didn’t reject Wormtongues advice, although yes he was under Saruman’s spell
[Lasak] and would have followed that advice no matter what it was
[Puma] yes true.they had ridden all day.it was nearing dusk….hardly good conditions for horses to fight
[esther] I agree Lasak
[Demosthenes] puma: yes. they did ride hard. they feared to be too late to help Erkenbrand.
[Puma] yes
[Lasak] at the end of the chapter you see how they follow Gandalfs advice even if it seems like stupidity
[Lasak] when they ride to isengard
[Puma] also besides the ents….gandalf was gathering the men of rohan who had scattered at the fords
[Puma] all would be needed
[Jenniearcheo] Which apparently takes 10 hours
[Darkover] Although in this chapter, the Rohirrim didn’t have a tremendous number of options
[Demosthenes] puma: i thought mostly that he went to find Erkenbrand tbh. And that the visit to Isengard was a secondary affair.
[Puma] at the fords of isen.isengard was delayed…..which was of major import
[Lasak] i’m going to sleep now, must playing a chess tournament now so have to sleep
[Jenniearcheo] Night Lasak
[Demosthenes] night lasak!
[Xanaseb] ciao Lasak
[Darkover] Goodnight, Lasak, and good luck with your tournament!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, good luck!
[Stozzi] bye lasak
[Lasak] thanks
[Stozzi] i best be off to actually work tomorrow yay =-= Enjoy the discussion =D bye
[Darkover] bye, Stozzi
[Demosthenes] The good thing for Theoden was that Erkenbrand’s forces had mostly been routed and scattered, not killed.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Stozzi
[Puma] when gandalf was out and about……he met both elfhelm and grimbold
[Darkover] Right, so they lived to assemble and fight again
[esther] by Lasak and Stozzi
[Puma] gandalf sent elfhelm back to edoras
[esther] I know Grimbold but not Elfhelm
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] many characters were left out of movies esther
[esther] which means I REALLY need to read the books lol
[Darkover] Or the movies would have been three times as long
[Puma] yes
[esther] I wouldn’t have minded if they were longer lol
[Demosthenes] The orcs are actually not terribly strategic if you think about it. although they do flank at the Isen in order to make Erekenbrand’s defence untenable.
[Puma] the actual lotr is too complex to be made a movie
[person] true story
[Demosthenes] But at Helm’s Deep they use only overwhelming numbers.
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yeah
[Darkover] well, the orcs seem to be vicious, but not stupid
[esther] I don’t know if i can agree with you on that Puma
[Darkover] Hi, person
[Demosthenes] Darkover: they are very … fierce … in their parley with Aragorn.
[person] Hi
[Demosthenes] what can we conclude from their words if anything?
[Elemmire] thats one way of putting it demos
[Demosthenes] The Orcs yelled and jeered. ‘Come down! Come down!’ they cried. ‘If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!’
[Darkover] Indeed, Demosthenes. And the Uruk-hai even have a sort of martial pride and courage, which would be admirable among other circumstances
[Demosthenes] ‘What of the dawn?’ they jeered. ‘We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?’
[Darkover] That is just what I mean. Unlike most Orcs, they don’t fear the sun. It is as if they are the orcs with true martial ardor.
[Darkover] I mean, they seem to take a sort of pride in themselves, like combat soldiers who take pride in their Company or Division
[Demosthenes] Yes, I’d agree with that.
[esther] yeah its interesting that there are different versions of the orcs, ones who don’t like the light and ones who don’t give a damn lol
[Demosthenes] They have a togetherness and a sense of … loyalty? … that is absent from other orcs we meet, both earlier and later.
[Darkover] Exactly!
[Puma] i think we see later that the orcs of minas morgul and cirith ungol have martial ardor
[Demosthenes] puma: but seem more likely to fall out with each other. they have less discipline i guess.
[Darkover] Maybe, Puma, but it seems to me there is a difference between bragging, “We are the fighting Uruk-hai!” and fighting because you will be whipped or otherwise punished if you don’t.
[Puma] i am not sure
[Jenniearcheo] And as you can see, it’s a pretty low threshhold
[Puma] but good point to ponder
[Jenniearcheo] Where there’s a whip, there’s a way? lol
[Darkover] Sick but funny, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it’s from Rankin/Bass. That’s the classic Mordor orc perspective
[Demosthenes] Orcs are not as cookie cutter as they appear. Is that because of Saruman? Treebeard described him as having a mind of metal and machines and wheels. And that goes very well with rigid order.
[Puma] rigid order is what sauron was all about Demz
[Elemmire] hi
[Demosthenes] Saruman seems more so.
[Elemmire] thats a goos point demos
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, it seems like Saruman would like them to be _more_ cookie cutter
[Demosthenes] I have a different question: what precisely is the devilry of saruman that allows the uruk-hai to destroy the wall?
[Jenniearcheo] Dems, if they had been more rigid and predictable, the fracas wouldn’t have happened when they were taking the hobbits to isengard
[esther] the bombs Demosthenes
[Elemmire] Good point jennie
[Jenniearcheo] It’s all about what’s on the list, esther. It’s just a program
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I always got the impression that the movie got that detail right–that it was probably gunpowder in some form that Saruman used.
[Elemmire] its a bomb/mine in the film
[Eruanna] I think the devilry is explosives, perhaps something similar to gunpowder
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it was gunpwder
[Puma] saruman sauron and gandalf all had gunpowder
[esther] all I’m saying is its wrong to hold people back that’s all
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, radagastthebrown. Near Washington, D.C.
[Puma] DC.my old college town
[Elemmire] well, unless wizards have magic exploding spells…
[Jenniearcheo]
[Jenniearcheo] Surely Saruman would have had to be there in person for that . . .
[Darkover] And since gunpowder hadn’t been used before in M-E, it probably did seem like magic to the Rohirrim
[Elemmire] yeah…true darkover
[Puma] sauron used blasting fire.gunpwder..gandalf did fireworks.gunpowder
[Demosthenes] That’s very Arthur C Clarke.
[Darkover] Oh, yes, Puma, you’re right–I forgot Gandalf’s fireworks
[Darkover] Much more delightful than weapons
[Puma] now gandalf also had rocketry
[Jenniearcheo] Which is interesting
[Puma] but he did not use gunpwder for war
[Demosthenes] Did Gandalf get the fireworks from
[Demosthenes] The fireworks of Gandalf came from Dale/Erebor.
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . the rings, magic, whatever, is neither good nor evil, and neither is gunpowder
[Jenniearcheo] It’s just the wielder?
[Elemmire] 3Smaug makes fireworks!lol
[esther] really? the fireworks came frome Erebor/Dale
[Puma] its an interesting concept how the various maiar.had gunpwder….but gandalf did not use his for war.he surely knew it could be
[Jenniearcheo] With the exception of the One Ring
[esther] lol true Elemmire
[Demosthenes] jennie: there is that magic/art dichotomy though.
[Demosthenes] Does gunpowder count here as a “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] It counts as power
[Puma] not to us….but to people there it would seem magic
[Darkover] Well, you mentioned Arthur C. Clark, Demosthenes, I assume alluding to his comment that once you reach a certain point, science is virtually indistinguishable from magic.
[Elemmire] 3gandalf’s fireworks-werent they described as magical at one point…
[Demosthenes] I mean in its effect.
[Puma] and gandalf had it and used it not for power
[Elemmire] 3?
[Darkover] and since gunpowder had never before been used as a weapon in M-E, the rohirrim probably didn’t know what it was, and it seemed like dark magic to them.
* Puma nods
* Elemmire agrees
[Puma] same for when sauron used it to blast holes in the rammas
[Jenniearcheo] Was The Shire the only place Gandalf ever set off his fireworks?
[esther] rammas?
[Darkover] Even in the movie “300,” there is a mention of how when weapons failed, “they used their magic,” i.e., gunpowder-based grenades
[Elemmire] theyre never mentioned anywhere else
[Demosthenes] jennie: the only place we know of.
[Puma] the outer wall around the pelennor.not in the movies.though of great import esther
[esther] oh ok thanks Puma
[Jenniearcheo] To the lobbers of the grenades, it might still be magic. If you didn’t know how they were made, but were just lobbin’ ‘em.
[Demosthenes] It’s interesting that the dwarves of Erebor don’t think to take the technology any further.
[Elemmire] nice argument youre building here, darkover
[Elemmire] hmm
[Darkover] But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Aragorn pointed out to one of the hobbits that Gandalf spent a lot of time in a lot of places, that hobbits didn’t know about
[Darkover] Thank you, Elemmire
[Puma] true Darkover
[Darkover] But I imagine Gandalf saved the best for hobbit parties
[Jenniearcheo] But presumably if he’d gone to Rohan and set off a fireworks display . . .
[esther] I agree Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Well, then again, perhaps Tolkien is implying that good people wouldn’t think of such a use
[Puma] to the hobbits the fireworks were magic
* Elemmire agrees with jennie
[Demosthenes] magia in Tolkien can be used for both good and bad. it’s not good or bad in itself.
[Darkover] Maybe so, Jennie. Tolkien tended to frown on technology, anyway, as he seemed to think it was frequently put to bad uses
[Puma] and its the same with middle earth magic.intent has a big part in if it is “good or bad”
[esther] I agree Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] In The Hobbit, he goes out of his way to describe orcs, and how they may be behind our weapons of mass destruction.
[Darkover] I was recalling the same thing, Jennie
[Demosthenes] I’m thinking that this is essentially a kind of magia.
[Puma] jrr said goetic
[Puma] as opposed to magia
[Puma] but even jrr had a hard time distinguishing the 2
[esther] doesn’t everyone have a hard time distinguishing what magic really is
[Puma] jrr makes it complex
[Darkover] He makes it seem like a natural force
[Demosthenes] “the enemy’s operations are by no meas all goetic deceits, but magic that produces real effects in the physical world. but his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goetia to terrify and subjugate.
[esther] u know what I’m still confused about, it sort of has to do with my personal life as well as Tolkien
[Puma] yes Demz.from letters
[Puma] and what is that esther
[Demosthenes] I had to find the reference and type it out. but … Saruman’s and Sauron’s explosive devices that breach walls, and Gandalf’s fireworks all seem to fall inside this magia category.
[Demosthenes] It’s letter 155.
[Jenniearcheo] So with magia you blow up walls and lob rocks. With goetic power you scare people into submission
[Jenniearcheo] Like the black breath
[Demosthenes] I guess so!
[Jenniearcheo] And, presumably . . . the Ring
[Puma] it was a bit more complex than what Demz quoted
[Demosthenes] Or deceive them, like Sauron does with Barahir’s companion.
[esther] I know my mom has her tastes but I really thought she’d want to read the books after I told her that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and my mom is a devout Christian
[Demosthenes] By imitating the dead.
[Puma] but in the end.both good and bad people use both.intent is the key
[Darkover] true, Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Well, esther, it is a matter of taste. Some people are uncomfortable with questioning reality at all. Even in fun.
[Demosthenes] It’s pretty clear that Saruman is into bulldozing here.
[Darkover] does your mom like fantasy, Esther?
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[esther] I dunno Darkover she watched a movie once that had fairies in it and didn’t seem to mind
[Puma] i think we have covered this chapter well
[Demosthenes] Yeah, lastly I’d like to flip to the conclusion, and touch on the Huorns. This is the Macbeth rewrite?
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all points
[Darkover] yes, the moving forest!
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as I understand it.
[Puma] many scholars think so Demz
[Darkover] A moving, *angry* forest
[Puma] nature rising to protect itself
[esther] ah yes the forest that attacked the fleeing Uruk Hai
[Demosthenes] I always figured this was the moving shadow that Legolas perceived at the beginning of the chapter.
[Puma] it was
[Jenniearcheo] sure
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] And later we find out that the Huorns follow the orcs of their own accord? Not by any instruction from Treebeard.
[Darkover] Certainly, those who passed under that shadow never came out again. That implies huorns, or at least *really* angry Ents
[Puma] the movie esther did not show the import of the ents and huorns
[Puma] without them.helms deep would ahve been lost for all the valor of the defense
[Darkover] Although there is a part in the movie where Eomer shouts, “Stay away from the trees!” I assume that is meant to be this moment, that we are discussing.
[Demosthenes] So we see Saruman’s “devilry” and the counterpoint … the revenge of nature that destroys that which would destroy/change it.
[Darkover] yes
[Elemmire] hmm
[Puma] it was the huorns that killed most of the uruks
[Jenniearcheo] crunchings and munchings
[Elemmire] yup
[Demosthenes] One brings about the other.
[esther] um ok Puma you’ll have to explain how they didn’t
[Puma] the huorns were the deciding factor in the battle
[Puma] nature.
[Demosthenes] Forces that are outflanked or surrounded usually lose. Badly.
[Puma] without nature on your side.all the valor will still fail
[esther] the huorns?
[Darkover] Plus, evil trees would be sort of freaky, IMO
[Puma] so treat nature with respect
[esther] I agree Darkover lol
[Jenniearcheo] or else
[Puma] the huorns were the moving trees esther
[Demosthenes] I’m not sure the huorns even after this are particularly on anyone’s side other than their own.
[Puma] agreed Demz
[esther] well I only know one thing, until I’ve read the books, I love the movies more. and I thought the moving trees were called Ents
[Darkover] Well, I doubt if the huorns were drawing many distinctions at that point
[Puma] no.ents were treebeard and ilk
[esther] oh ok
[Demosthenes] Wonder if the Rohirrim had anything to fear.
[Puma] the books are way more complex than movies esther
[Darkover] Ents were the “shepherds of the forest,” esther. Huorns are trees that have gone bad, so to speak, presumably from being mistreated by humans for so long.
[Darkover] Huorns weren’t mentioned in the movies.
[Puma] or also ents that had grown treeish
[Jenniearcheo] Not by name
[Jenniearcheo] But the forest does appear and chew up the Uruk Hai in the EE
[Demosthenes] An odd in-between thing.
[esther] I guess I just like seeing them visually rather than having to picture it in my head Puma
[Darkover] I bet the Rohirrim would have had plenty to fear, Demosthenes, if they had gone too near that “shadow”
[Puma] old man willow was probaly a huron
[Darkover] True, Puma
[Demosthenes] They did take wood from the forest to burn the orcs.
[Puma] huorn
[Darkover] Well, I think they were allowed to do that, so long as it was not living wood
[Puma] ents understand the use of woood.not the useless destruction saruman was doing
[Elemmire] yeah, aragorn legolas and gimli take wood earlier
[esther] I agree Puma
[Elemmire] yeah
[Puma] it is one of jrr’s green themes
[Demosthenes] Like the Dead (later on) they perform one act to assist the free people’s and then disappear.
[Puma] respect nature
[esther] agreed Puma
[Jenniearcheo] The Grateful Dead do one act? Oh, the armies . . . never mind
[Puma] lol
[Puma] although the ents did more than one act
[Puma] they defeated a horde of orcs in the wold….
[Darkover] So, have we covered all the aspects of this chapter?
[Puma] that had failed to get into lorien
[Puma] i think so darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think so. I can’t think of anything else.
[esther] I can’t say so cuz I haven’t actually read the chapter yet
[Puma] good job people
[Darkover] We’ve had a good discussion, as usual
[Puma] i would encourage you to read lotr esther
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks,Dems
[Demosthenes] thanks everyone!
Session Close: Sun Jun 02 09:49:36 2013