Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?

The Two Towers Book III, Chapter VI: The King of the Golden Hall

At the gate of Edoras, the guards receive the four with suspicion. Trust is a commodity in short supply in Rohan. At the doors of Meduseld, the Golden Hall, they are again stopped as the doorward, Hama, requests the four leave their weapons with him. Only after some tense moments is Gandalf is able to plead an exception for his “walking stick”.

Théoden, seemingly old and frail, is attended by his niece, Éowyn, and his closest and most-trusted advisor, Grima Wormtongue. Théoden’s animosity toward and distrust of Gandalf is obvious, and is echoed by Wormtongue who calls him a bearer of bad news and names him “Lathspell” and “Stormcrow”. Undeterred, Gandalf exposes Wormtongue’s duplicitous alliance with Saruman. He urges Théoden to send for the imprisoned Éomer, trust in his own strength and throw off his weariness.

Théoden gives his advisor an ultimatum: either fighting alongside him against Isengard or exile. Unable to maintain his duplicity without comitting himself to a battle he sees as folly, Wormtongue chooses exile.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday May 18, at 6pm EDT (New York time) as we discuss the Two Towers chapter The King of the Golden Hall.

Suggested reading:0
* The Two Towers Book III, Chapter VI: The King of the Golden Hall
* Unfinished Tales: Cirion and Eorl

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Session Start: Sun May 12 07:15:09 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin anyhow?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read about 20 pages…how many appendixes ae in total..cause my book has 6
[Demosthenes] frosaki_the_ringbearer: I think the last is E. But today we’re talking about Appendirx A mostly.
[sunshower] hi Galaril
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i have all the lotr in one book…it’s true…1150 pages..ahhaha
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ok just asking
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Pete-Slagheaps] Appendix B has most of the good stuff, I think
[ChristineGolden] The Numenorean section always reminds me of the “begats” in the Bible.
[Alatariel] Have we started?
[Puma] read ut for numenor
[Demosthenes] Alatariel: kinda yes. We’re defintiely ready to go.
[Pete-Slagheaps] me too, Christine. I don’t think that I’ve read appemdix A moe than twic, sonve 1969
[Demosthenes] Let’s start at the beginning:
[Demosthenes] ‘Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of D?ael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage D?ael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the D?in were accustomed to marry.
[Demosthenes] 1) It’s a rough world for the Dunedain of Arnor obviously.
[Puma] one thing left out….that is in peoples….they lived in a hidden fastness
[Demosthenes] Oh?
[Puma] yes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] my HoF too…so be kind to me finally people to talk to..
[Puma] so they did have armed towns
[Jenniearcheo] Gilraen was such a Debbie Downer.
[Alatariel] Whose Aranarth?
[Puma] well…..then come an instance of ivorwens forsight
[Adann412] my first hof as well but I’ve been in barlimans chat before
[Puma] the 1st chieftain
[Puma] ivorwens forsight was of great import
[Eowyn] My first HoF too
[Nik_Z] same here
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien had a lot of ‘kissing cousins’ marry in both LotR and TS.
[Puma] remember both she and dirhael were of the lone of isildur…just not the senior branch
[Puma] line
[sunshower] wait—how old was Gilraen?
[Puma] 22
[Puma] young for a dunedain woman to marry
[sunshower] hmmm
[Jenniearcheo] Since they normally lived a while
[Demosthenes] I guess that would be young for Dunedain.
[Jenniearcheo] Kinda like the dwarves who didn’t seem to marry and have kids (per family trees) until about 100
[Demosthenes] yeah jennie. like that.
[Puma] dunedain were a bit soooner than dwarves
[ChristineGolden] And Arathorn was a man, full-grown, so probably what we’d call middle-aged.
[Puma] not middle age
[Puma] he was in mid 50′s
[Evenstar25] how long was the average lifespan of the dunedan?
[Demosthenes] 40s or 50s?
[Jenniearcheo] and he was only 60 when he (Arathorn) died
[sunshower] oh, that’s a bit of an age difference then
[Puma] and at that time normal lifespan for chieftains was a bout 160
[Jenniearcheo] When Aragorn was 2
[Evenstar25] okay
[Jenniearcheo] hello
[Pete-Slagheaps] Hi, wanderer
[Demosthenes] Evenstar25: Aragorn lived to 215. That seems to be about the limit of Dunedain life *in Middle-earth*.
[Evenstar25] Okay, I knew he lived a long time I just couldn’t remember
[Demosthenes] So Aragorn was /really/ young when he met Arwen.
[Nik_Z] and also, Aragorn was said to be particularly long-lived for Dunedain at that time
[Demosthenes] still in the short shorts.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] All the Americans are now picturing Daisy Duke
[Pete-Slagheaps] haha, Jennie
[Adann412] wish I could stay but moms makin me stuff envelopes for my sisters wedding, bye everyone
[Demosthenes] Does that explain his … forwardness perhaps?
[Demosthenes] Though, Elrond had just given him a heap of stuff. Ring of Barahir and all that.
[sunshower] young and dumb?
[Phil] evening everyone
[Demosthenes] young and restless?
[Nik_Z] but at the same time, when he told her his lineage he became instantly aware that she was “better” than him
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it was more destiny, like lightning striking.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all excited about the future when he went for his stroll
[Nik_Z] so his pursuit of her was still more fate-driven
[Puma] and his father gave him the name Aragorn, a name used in in the house of the chieftains. But Ivorwen at his naming stood by and said.”Kingly Valor”that he shall have but i see on his breast a green stone and from that his true name shall come and his chief renown: for he shall be a healer and a renewer….and they did not know what she meant, for there was no green stone to be seen by other eyes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: To some extent I certainly see Tolkien replaying the Beren and Luthien story. But deliberately. There is an element of “this is not chance”.
[Puma] that passage is in peoples….but it is in fact true
[Jenniearcheo] and it’s directly referred to
[Jenniearcheo] She’s even wearing the same (or a very similar) dress
[ChristineGolden] Fate plays a big role in Tolkien, and I think the Arwen/Aragorn romance was ‘destiny.’
[Nik_Z] I’d agree
[Puma] when galadriel said to him take now the name forseen at your birth
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i agree
[Demosthenes] ?For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of L?n which tells of the meeting of L?n and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there L?n walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
[ChristineGolden] Especially since Galadriel who had foresight, cleaned him up before he met Arwen in the woods.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, in Lorien
[sunshower] aye, there’s that bound brow concept
[Jenniearcheo] yep
[Demosthenes] Oh you think that was Galadriel spinning webs? I had not thought of that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, anyone could see he was scruffy and travel worn
[Nik_Z] she probably foresaw their destiny
[Evenstar25] well, this has been fun guys, but I must go now, until another time!
[Puma] galadriel knew
[Nik_Z] and perhaps wanted to help a bit, as it were
[Jenniearcheo] And Tolkien specifies that it’s Galadriel who cleaned him up
[Phil] later Evenstar25
[Jenniearcheo] bye Evenstar25
[Demosthenes] After 30 years in the wilderness he probably looked a bit weatherbeaten.
[bld_th] When Arwen introduces to Aragorn she tells “Yet her name -Luthine- is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers” so what did she know about her destiny?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I definitely believe Galadriel encouraged the romance, and not because of personal reasons.
[Puma] well……he had just returned from confines of mordor
[Phil] a bit weatherbeaten i guess that is an understatement Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Strider does mention to Boromir something about “little do i resemble isildur and anarion etc etc”
[Jenniearcheo] good question, bld_th
[Demosthenes] I think he was being sarcastic.
[Demosthenes] bld_th: that is a good question.
[Puma] but aragorn did resemble elendil and elendur
[Nik_Z] yes
[Demosthenes] Or is she just referring to her Peredhil nature?
[Nik_Z] Aragorn is said to gretly resemble Elendil
[Demosthenes] I can see both possibilities.
[Nik_Z] I think she foresaw her foture
[ChristineGolden] But when he appears in his “raiment” before Arwen, he does appear kingly.
[Nik_Z] partially, anyway
[Eowyn] what motivation do you think galadriel had in “match making” then?
[Demosthenes] Does Arwen have foresight?
[Puma] aragorn appears as an elf would
[Phil] i think she does Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel had foresight and was always weaving schemes. She undoubtedly knew the prophecies, too.
[Puma] arwen does have forsight….its demonstrated
[Phil] i think most elves have foresight
[Nik_Z] and some men
[ChristineGolden] Yes, it’s mentioned in the appendix, I believe, Demosthenes.
[Puma] galadriel knew of ivorwens prophesy
[Puma] and galadriel had the mirror
[Demosthenes] I think the great standard she creates for Aragorn is driven by some sort of foresight.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] galadriel pretty much knew everything i think
[Puma] yes
[Puma] and also arwen had forsight as to what frodos fate would be
[Jenniearcheo] that he’d need it?
[bld_th] interesting
[Demosthenes] Yes jennie. It seems to be very imnportant in winning over the Dead.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think any of the elves clearly saw Frodo’s fate, Puma.
[Demosthenes] I don’t think it’s just adornment.
[Jenniearcheo] And announcing the Return . . .
[Puma] arwen did after the war
[ChristineGolden] Glimpses, perhaps, and premonitions, but not like watching a video play out.
[Darkover] Greetings, all, so sorry I’m late!
[Nik_Z] has anyone else ever been a bit puzzled by what Aragorn says before his death (I am the last of the Numenoreans)? personally, I think he says this to emphasise the beginning of a new era
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did have a son. And apparently some daughters
[Puma] Aragorn was the last numenorean.a new line had begun
[Darkover] Nik_Z, I think Aragorn also meant he was the last who could choose his own time of death, too
[Jenniearcheo] But they . . . aren’t the same?
[Nik_Z] aye
[ChristineGolden] The great standard was a major thing in the middle ages and in english mythology.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, I wondered where you were.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or like the Eagle aquila of the Roman legions. It signified their honour. and their lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, got here ASAP
[Jenniearcheo] The Eagle.
[ChristineGolden] No, Aragorn was the last of the Numenoreans because his son was part-elven like his mother.
[Puma] Aragorn had more names than any1 else in lotr
[Nik_Z] the Eagles, and their counterparts in the Napoleonic wars
[Puma] no.eldarion was not part elven
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did seem to have a number of them.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gandalf had quite a few names, as well
[Darkover] Well, technically, Chris, Aragorn was part-Elf too. And part Maia, through Luthien
[ChristineGolden] I’m not so sure about that, Demosthenes, Tolkien never alluded much to the Greeks or Romans.
[Puma] yes he did christine
[Darkover] Elvish blood, Eldarion had, Puma, not that he was of Elvish race
[Nik_Z] but banners do play their but in LotR
[Nik_Z] bit*
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ellhnas?uparxei k allos ellhnas edw?
[Jenniearcheo] The idea of a Standard is an old one, whatever the source.
[ChristineGolden] Not very often, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Ironically, the orcs make as much use of heraldry as men
[Puma] the entrance of the people into minas tirith.was always referred to by him as homeric
[Demosthenes] Sign and signifiers.
[Darkover] Well, standards had their purpose in battle, Jennie, regardless of what side or species an army was
[Puma] well….there are many many banners in jrr
[Jenniearcheo] Even Martin’s use of “bannermen” is a reflection of the idea.
[ChristineGolden] The standard was the sign of the king and his authority. When Aragorn unfurled it, he was claiming his crown.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Darkover] Right, Chris. More like “The King has returned” than “Lord Aragorn”
[Demosthenes] And that plays into his rodering the banner furled at Minas Tirith after the pelennor.
[ChristineGolden] When he rode with it to the gates of Mordor, he was announcing, “The King has returned.”
[Demosthenes] ordering*
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] tolkien had takenpart of greek and romian myhology ..moria for exaple is a village in island of lesvos…the collums of kazard dum are takem by dsign form there
[Puma] the columns were shaped as trees
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] no kazard dm sorry the great hall we see in the movie
[Jenniearcheo] I can see a parallel between the dwarves and classical architecture.
[Nik_Z] I always felt that the Silmarillion was a quite roman/greek feeling to it
[Puma] movie counts not
[Nik_Z] the great clashes of gods and men
[Demosthenes] So, to what extent does Aragorn’s …. drive … derive from all the things he’s forced to do in order “win” Arwen (or win over Elrond)?
[Puma] Elrond was on aragorns side
[Darkover] most of it, always seemed ot me, Demosthenes
[Puma] elrond was no thingol
[ChristineGolden] Well, according to Tolkien, most of his inspiration came from the middle ages and nordic myth.
[sunshower] I say less than most
[bld_th] the movie has a lot of infuence from Rome, specially Gondorian design
[Darkover] He wasn’t marrying the woman of his dreams unless he became king–and of the reunited Kingdom, no less
[Demosthenes] Was he? He seems a bit conflicted … though way less of an idiot than thingol.
[Puma] Arwen was above aragorn
[Nik_Z] Christine – true, but the great armies are more of a antiquity thing
[Darkover] Well, if we’re making Greek allusions, Thingol had hubris
[Nik_Z] since the middle ages saw a decline
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Aragorn had a destiny to fulfill and that his love of Arwen “was his light when all other lights had failed.”
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and in a way that “saves” the quest of the Ring too.
[Puma] little in middle earth resembles the middle ages
[Darkover] in terms of lineage, maybe, Puma, but it seems to me that Aragorn earned his position–eventually–whereas everything Arwen had was an accident of birth
[Demosthenes] Would Aragorn have been in Bree otherwise?
[Pete-Slagheaps] and Melian was above Thingol–higher than Arwen was above Aragorn
[Puma] there was no feudalism
[Demosthenes] It’s a weird thought.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Nik. You forget the War of the Roses, for example.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, Turgon was like, “My daughter? Suuure!”
[Demosthenes] turgon is an odd exception
[Puma] no quite jennie.turon knew of ulmos prophesy
[Jenniearcheo] But blew it off
[Demosthenes] And still ignored it. well done turgon.
[Puma] not completely
[ChristineGolden] There are many symbols, etc., to the Middle Ages, Puma.
[Darkover] Maybe Aragorn wouldn’t otherwise have been in Bree, Demosthenes, but one of the things I love about LotR is Tolkien’s insistence that everything happens for a purpose.
[Darkover] It is how he explained coincidence.
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris
[Puma] for aragorn to expect people to be rules by him….did he not have 1st to learn to be ruled
[Puma] Elrond was a father to aragorn
[Puma] elladan and elrohir bothers
[Nik_Z] Christine – the War of the Roses was more of an exception, the middle ages mostly saw small-scale warfare
[Demosthenes] Darkover: There’s all these odd little threads. Though … you can find signs of stuff everywhere when you start applying hindsight.
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes
[Nik_Z] armies of several thousand men, 10k at the most
[ChristineGolden] I’d think he would have learned that lesson quite well from Elrond, Puma. I don’t see Elrond taking much sass from a young boy.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] Or indeed anyone else, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sass
[bld_th] Yes, there´s a nice quote about destiny, can{t remember if it is told by gandalf or Tom bombadil
[Puma] but that is why aragorn honored elronds wish
[Darkover] Well, let’s face it, Puma, Aragorn didn’t have much choice in honoring Elrond’s wishes when it came to marrying Arwen. It was more like, this is the deal, take it or leave it.
[ChristineGolden] Those were large armies for the time, Nik. After all, Europe was still recovering from the Black Death.
[Goldberry] If Arwen had chosen to leave ME would Frodo have had to stay?
[bld_th] Oh yes: “Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine” its Tom Bombadil
[Puma] no.both arwen and aragorn did have a choice
[ChristineGolden] Do you think Arwen would have married Aragorn if Elrond had forbidden it?
[bld_th] I think yes Goldberry
[Puma] no.arwen did not give frodo her seat
[Darkover] No, I doubt that very much, Goldberry. Arwen offered Frodo her seat on the ships, so to speak, because she *knew* there would be at least one vacancy, but I don’t think one thing had anything to do with the other.
[Jenniearcheo] Would the war have been won if she’d refused him and gone West?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] she gave her place didn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a hobson’s choice?
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes.
[Nik_Z] my point exactly, antiquity saw warfare at a grander scale (take the Roman empire for example, or perhaps the battle of Platea), whereas the middle ages saw warfare as a smaller occurence, composed more of raids than battles
[Puma] no she did not give her place
[Demosthenes] You may take any horse in the barn, as long as it’s the one in the first stall.
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would still have had the West win the war, but then Gondor wouldn’t have risen to its full glory afterwards without Arwen.
[Darkover] Jennie, I think it would have depended on how early Arwen refused him, if indeed she had. Certainly it would have altered circumstances, but not if she changed her mind at the time of the war
[Darkover] If she’d done the latter, Gondor would have had a different Queen, I suspect, but that is all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Again this is somewhat reflective of Tolkien’s own courtship of Edith Bratt.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] Something we observed with Beren and Luthien.
[Nik_Z] Demosthenes: yes, quite so
[Darkover] Whereas if Arwen had refused early on to ever be engaged to Aragorn, things would have changed dramatically, and Aragorn and his circumstances would have been very different
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes, although the father-figure in Tolkien’s case who put forth the restrictions was his own, the priest who raised him.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s worth pondering … to what extent is this a “re-run” of Beren and Luthien?
[Puma] in a large part it is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t about the rest of you, but I didn’t really know about Arwen when I first read LotR. So, yes, I think events would have played out the same.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly there are parallels. But it’s referred to quite directly
[Demosthenes] And how that figues with Arwen being the “Evenstar”
[sunshower] a “reboot” with a better outcome?
[Jenniearcheo] In simile rather than just metaphor
[Puma] even reflected by araogrn singing some of beren and luthien to the hobbits
[Darkover] There are some similarities–Arwen’s choice is similar to Luthien’s–but Arwen had a much more understanding father
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was an internal motivation for Aragorn, not a driver of events.
[Darkover] who also raised Aragorn, unlike Thingol and Beren’s relationship
[Demosthenes] sunshower: oooh, do they get a happy ending?
[sunshower] I say they did
[Nik_Z] and Elrond was less haughty than Thingol
[ChristineGolden] Very little to me, Demosthenes. Arwen really plays a very small role in the war.
[Darkover] Oooh, very well put, Chris!
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read somewhere that at first tolkien thought aragorn marring ewoyn but he changed it later..why u thing?
[Puma] the evenstar refers to arwen being the last of the houses of finwe and elwe born in middle earth
[Darkover] And of course, there was the precedent of Luthien and Beren, by the time Arwen and Aragorn came along.
[ChristineGolden] Whereas Luthien was totally involved and committed to helping Beren achieve his quest.
[sunshower] isn’t there something in the Tale about A&A meeting again?
[sunshower] after they pass from M-e?
[Jenniearcheo] Which actually makes it even more dramatic. Elrond knew what would happen to Arwen because of Luthien
[Nik_Z] Tolkien married Aragorn to Arwen to signal the renewal of Gondor and Arnor
[Puma] only in 1 slight way
[Darkover] Frosaki, I heard the same, but from what I heard, when Tolkien created the character of Eowyn, he hadn’t yet created the character of Faramir, and for several different reasons, he changed things.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, they were both beautiful elven maids who looked very much alike. One was the morning star; the other, its evenstar. But as to their actual roles in the fight against evil, there is no comparison.
[Darkover] Right, Sunshower, Aragorn promises that he will see Arwen in the next world, because Arwen has chosen the “gift of Men,” which means she will be with Aragorn and his people, not with the Elves.
[Puma] arwen was aragorns inspiration.also she watched over him in thought
[Darkover] Right again, Chris. Luthien was much more proactive in fighting evil.
[ChristineGolden] Watching is a lot different than defying the gates of Angband, Puma.
[Puma] Aragorn used the word “behold!” which in jrr something that is true
[Nik_Z] Arwen was more to Aragorn what Edith was to JRR
[sunshower] pretty long life, raised the kids….see you on the other side! not a bad outcome, imo
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t Elwing have that same choice? And the same wistfulness?
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was a crucial part of that tale; Arwen was a note in the appendices.
[Demosthenes] Is Arwen a psychological bolster for Aragorn? I’m thinking of her “hope comes or hope fades…” line particularly.
[Darkover] Puma, what you say is true, but being “inspiration” is hardly the same as completing a quest against the dark lord
[Nik_Z] something to come home to, something worth fighting for
[Puma] i was not comparing arwen to luthien
[ChristineGolden] the little woman sitting home doing embroidery by the fire, Nik?
[Darkover] I’d say definitely, Demosthenes. I’m sure it was the thought of earning Arwen at first, and then the thought of her waiting for him, that helped Aragorn go on at times.
[Demosthenes] this too:
[Demosthenes] ‘And Arwen said: “Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it.”
[Nik_Z] in a sense, yes
[Nik_Z] but mostly a beacon of hope in dark times
[Darkover] Maybe that was an example of the foresight of her family line, Demosthenes
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #thehalloffire
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, that’s how she always struck me, too. Arwen is really the least heroic of the elven maids we’ve discussed.
[Nik_Z] definitely
[Puma] we know little of arwens story
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps because she was a bit of an afterthought?
[Puma] though you are correct
[Nik_Z] she watches things happen for her, but she herself does not make them happen
[ChristineGolden] While Middle Earth is on the edge of doom, she is safely in Rivendell, embroidering a banner for Aragorn.
[Darkover] Sunshower, Arwen’s deal seems pretty good to me, too, but that is because you and I are going to get old–if we live long enough–and die anyway. Arwen had to *choose* to give up youth, eternal beauty, and immortality for death and an uncertain future.
[Goldberry] Elrond probably didn’t let her do anything dangerous
[Darkover] Thingol didn’t want to “let” Luthien do things, either, Goldberry, but she did
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: Dunno about that. We see that travelling to and from Lorien is in itself dangerous.
[Goldberry] true
[ChristineGolden] But she never had to ACT, Darkover, against evil – be it Morgoth or Sauron – whereas Luthien, Idril, and Elwing put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] Not that I am critical of Arwen. She wasn’t a warrior, not practical to expect her to be.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh yeah. Poor Mrs. Elrond
[ChristineGolden] I’m sure she was heavily guarded, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there are some similarities to Melian, i think.
[bld_th] But Arwen exeplify the difficult of the choice between mortality and unmortality, may be the others had the same difficult, buy their stories are told from a more epic way
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I would agree with that, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I agree, Chris. She was much more passive than earlier elf-women. But my point to Sunshower was that, when examined in context, Arwen’s choice becomes more difficult.
[ChristineGolden] All of the characters faced difficult choices, though, Darkover; Frodo, the most difficult of all. I don’t see what makes hers so special, at least more so than Luthien’s.
[bld_th] Im agree Draover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that Arwen makes the greater sacrifice? while Aragorn gains a world?
[Darkover] And of course, Arwen gave up her Elvish family, too
[Nik_Z] exactly, Darkover: when Luthien makes her choice, it is in a time of war and dwindling hope, so she wants to enjoy, whereas Arwen finally chooses after the victory, therefore putting more on the line
* mib_o90ahc (Mibbit@torn-E2ED043A.cf-res.cfu.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[sunshower] the bitter parting of Arwen and Elrond
[Jenniearcheo] Arwen has the loss of Luthien to consider. the effect it had on everyone.
[Darkover] That is a valid argument, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] The easier choice for Luthien would have been to sail off for Valinor, not storm the gates of Angband.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: maybe that is her battle? the one with self.
[Nik_Z] but then again, it was a ray of hope
[sunshower] mortal love–relatively short-term OR immortalilty?
[Jenniearcheo] An immortality filled with regret?
[Darkover] Chris, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Arwen. She was like Luthien only when it came to beauty and the choice she had to make, yes. And as you correctly observe, lots of people had to make potentially-lousy choices. But suffering isn’t a contest, and Arwen’s choice was nevertheless a difficult one. That is all I mean.
[Demosthenes] Would Valinor not … temper/heal … any regret?
[sunshower] I think I am more OK with the whole thing mostly because of the promise of their meeting again in the “afterlife”
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[sunshower] going along that line of thinking–their love is immortal
[sunshower] ymmv
[Darkover] Hmm, I hadn’t considered that, Demosthenes. Maybe, as Elrond suggested in the PJ movies, Arwen would have been happy with just a memory of her love, had she gone to Valinor. Maybe not, too.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] wel all i can say is things are more complicated once u read the books…so much to thig
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] +think
[Darkover] Maybe it is one of those things a person wouldnt’ know until after they made the choice.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that is why Frodo goes to Tol Eressea.
[Demosthenes] On the other hand, Valinor doesn’t help Miriel much.
[Demosthenes] she has to go to Mandos.
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[Darkover] True. The broad implication was that it would help heal, or at least soothe, his body and spirit.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] whatever choice u made u can always have second thoughts
[Darkover] lol, Chris. But to be fair, Arwen didn’t do that, at least.
[Demosthenes] Do you think that after Aragorn dies that Arwen suddenly … i guess … fades?
[Jenniearcheo] She seems to.
[Darkover] frosaki, that’s one reason why Tolkien fans usually read LotR more than once. There is indeed a lot to be gleaned.
[Demosthenes] ‘But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
[Jenniearcheo] Goes a little Gilraen-y
[ChristineGolden] I know, I was just trying to come up with an example, Darkover, and that one popped into my head. Not quite what I meant, but you get the idea.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the son and daughters aren’t enough to bring her joy
[bld_th] i think she dies too, thats the menaning for me of being forgotten
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Arwen might have faded Elf-fashion, and then died, but I got the impression she was doing the Elf equivalent of what Aragorn did
[ChristineGolden] Yes, like that quote about “I have hope to the Dunedain. I kept none for myself,” Jen.
[Puma] arwen died
[Darkover] said goodbye to all the people and things she’d known and loved, and then lay down to die.
[Puma] she chose to die
[Jenniearcheo] And apparently a bare skeleton?
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe that’s the way it was ‘supposed to happen.’ Luthien didn’t live long after Beren, either.
[Jenniearcheo] Without even the little flowers
[Jenniearcheo] And the mallorn leaves actually falling
[Puma] and where arwen chose to die is symbolic
[Demosthenes] In a way Aragorn truly seems to have been Arwen’s hope.
[Darkover] Jennie, her no longer wishing to stay on after Aragorn died might in part have been because she’d been born an Elf, and lived as one for so long
[Jenniearcheo] As an archeologist, I know that an exposed corpse is not the best way to keep a skeleton articulated, is all.
[Puma] arwen could have chosen to die when aragorn did
[Lendaris] Hi there
[ChristineGolden] Maybe when the man died, his elven wife died soon after. Doom of Mandos, perhaps?
[Darkover] I mean, don’t Elves in Tolkien’s world become spiritually attached to their spouses? It isn’t like a mortal widow just living on, and maybe marrying someone else.
[Demosthenes] We don’t know in what order Luthien and Beren died. But they must have been spaced closely i think?
[Darkover] I think it was more an elvish characteristic, Chris, as I indicated in my recent remarks to Jennie
[Demosthenes] As the Nauglamir was brought pretty much directly to Dior with the news.
[Darkover] Very closely spaced, I suspect, Demosthenes
[Puma] when arwen and luthien married they were no longer eldar
[Darkover] I don’t think that was something that changed completely just overnight, Puma
[Puma] but it was
[Demosthenes] Aragron seems to think she could still take a boat
[Puma] in luthiens case by decree of mandos
[Darkover] Arwen and Aragorn, Lendaris
[Demosthenes] ‘ “I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
[Darkover] Right. But then, she would also never see him again.
[Demosthenes] or is he telling fibs?
[Puma] arwen no longer had a right to go
[Darkover] And doesn’t she tell him that choice was made long ago, there’s no going back now?
[Demosthenes] Yet Aragorn thinks she could?
[Demosthenes] He’s wrong then?
[sunshower] “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Besides, as I think Arwen mentions, aren’t the last of the ships gone?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always wondered about that passage since the last ship had already sailed.
[sunshower] that’s the line that does it for me, I think
[Demosthenes] Maybe she could build a raft out of mallorns
[Puma] no.the last ships are not gone
[Darkover] I think he might have been mistaken, Demosthenes. I can’t imagine him lying to Arwen about something like that.
[sunshower]
[Jenniearcheo] Or Entwives
[Demosthenes] or entwives
[Puma] cirdan would be on the very last ship
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Demosthenes] It’s an odd one.
[Darkover] Well, he might have been on the last one, Puma, and it might have already sailed. As I recall, Arwen tells a dying Aragorn that there no longer is any ship that would bear her hence.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Legolas go?
[Demetria] Isn’t the last ship the one with Legolas & Gimli?
[ChristineGolden] Weren’t the appendices an add-on? So, it’s possible Tolkien wasn’t his usual OCD self about details?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] yes i thnk
[FloraWright] no he built one
[Puma] yes Darkover.because she had no right to sail…..not because the last ship had sailed
[Darkover] Maybe Legolas, Gimli, and Cirdan were all on the same one. I really don’t think this is as complicated as some of you are trying to make out.
[Puma] no.cirdan was not on ship with legolas and gimli
[Demetria] Cirdan was on the one with Gandolf and the ring bearers
[Darkover] Maybe that is what she meant, Puma. And maybe she meant that as far as she knew, there were no more ships. It could be interpreted either way.
[Demosthenes] But I say to you, King of the N?reans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”
[Demosthenes] That seems a long time to learn the lesson of mortality.
[Puma] no it could not be interprested either way
[ChristineGolden] “There is now no ship that will bear me hence (to Valinor).
[FloraWright] you have a piont
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, rationally, all human beings know we’re going to die, but how many of us actually understand and accept it, until it happens?
[ChristineGolden] That’s pretty clear.
[Darkover] And Arwen had been an immortal Elf for much of her life.
[sunshower] Elfkind were removed from that thought
[Puma] Arwen had made the choice of the half elven….the same as elros did
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] how old was she??Arwen
[sunshower] old
[Puma] and neither could go west
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “i’m going to live forever. so far so good”?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] older than aragorn?
[Puma] arwen was born 241 3rd age
[FloraWright] but she die’s in the end and she was like 2050
[Demosthenes] I guess we all do that.
[Jenniearcheo] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien the year Elessar died, and he and Gimli went down Anduin and over the sea
[Darkover] Something like that, Demosthenes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ooh nice…so aragorn liked older women..
[FloraWright] haha yea
[FloraWright] he was 87
[bld_th] like Edith to Tolkien
[Puma] arwen was 2901 yrs old when aragorn died
[bld_th] Edith was older
[Puma] and she died 1 yr later
[FloraWright] yea he live 100 years then gimli and legolas left and arwen died
[Darkover] I wonder if Arwen was the last Elf in M-E when she died.
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] Well, what a cheery turn we’ve taken
[Demosthenes] I think there would have been some Silvan elves still
[Puma] and arwen had never been an elf.ever
[Demosthenes] Some of the Moriquendi
[Demosthenes] Thranduil’s folk?
[Darkover] LoL, Jennie, but let’s face it, death is a big part of the Arwen-Aragorn tale
[Jenniearcheo] Dunno. Tale of Years ends with that entry
[Demosthenes] They didn’t seem much interested in boats.
[sunshower] Thranduil himself?
[Jenniearcheo] True
[ChristineGolden] No, Tolkien said that elves still lived in Middle Earth, but diminished.
[Puma] death is a big part of all jrr’s writtings
[ChristineGolden] Death and redemption
[Darkover] Probably a few elves here and there, then, some who just didn’t want to leave M-E for any reason.
[Puma] but its important to know arwen,,,,was not an elf
[FloraWright] she was
[Demosthenes] They wanted to have their own small realms? Away from Valinor?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] too attached maybe to leave
[Puma] no she was not
[sunshower] I wonder if JRRT considered any of his contemporaries to be the faded elves?
[Elrenia] Arwen wasn’t an elf?!
[Darkover] Arwen wasn’t a full-blooded Elf, Puma, but I would have called her an Elf.
[Demosthenes] If they were Moriquendi they might not know the way.
[Elrenia] :s
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Puma] arwen was half elven
[Demetria] Arwen was 3/4 elf
[Darkover] If it walks like an Elf, has undying beauty and virtual immortality like an elf…
[Puma] she had a different destiny than elves
[Demosthenes] Also, you have weird exceptions like Maglor.
[Jenniearcheo] Plus, they would have been to drunk on Dorwinion wine to make the effort.
[Puma] peredhil have a choice
[Darkover] Fine, her destiny was different, but that wouldn’t make her less of an Elf
[Demosthenes] presumably still out there somewhere. Singing his little heart out.
[ChristineGolden] But her blood and heritage was elven, Puma. Just because I marry someone from China doesn’t make me Asian.
[Darkover] As far as I know, Demosthenes, Maglor is still out there.
[Puma] arwen was half elven with life of the eldar….which she chose to give up..
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Darkover] Which makes her an Elf, or close enough, Puma
[Puma] Christine.you are missing the point of what half elven means
[ChristineGolden] She chose to give up her immortality and right to go to Valinor, Puma. That did not change her “DNA.”
[Puma] elves had a destiny with death.as did humankind….the peredhil could choose to which kindred their fates would be
[Jenniearcheo] Hang on. If the valar could Ping make Earendil not mortal . . . that changed him, didn’t it?
[Darkover] We get that. Which makes them a different kind of Elf, Puma, not a separate species.
[Jenniearcheo] Or am I getting my guys confused?
[FloraWright] in the book she was a elf in the movie’s she was an elf there is no changing that
[Puma] Christine.go back to sil and see what mandos said to earendil and elwing
[Demetria] she was still immortal and bound to Middle Earth until all the elves and all their works were nothing more than memory
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, they made Tuor “numbered among the elder race.”
[Darkover] Earendil and Elwing had a choice, too, Jennie. Elwing chose to belong to the Eldar, and her husband went along with her.
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover and Demetria.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant Tuor
[Puma] elros chose to be judged among humans
[Puma] elrond with the eldar
[Demetria] exactly and her choice was the same as her father’s and uncle’s
[Puma] but the choice of the children of elrond were bound to his…..when elrond left.they had to make a choice
[Demosthenes] I think that’s the point where you kinda just have to roll with the story. In the same way that there’s really no magic/art but we accept that too.
[Puma] no.just her uncles
[Demosthenes] Otherwise you’ll go bonkers.
[sunshower] [--brain explodes
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Darkover] Right. and from that day forward, Elros was a Man, regardless of who he married. Arwen was an Elf. If you want to argue that she became of the race of Men when she married Aragorn, that’s plausible, but until then, she was an Elf.
[Jenniearcheo] [--- shakes brains off
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my too much information….
[Puma] she was not an elf
[ChristineGolden] They chose to be judged, judgment which only comes after death.
[Demetria] no, she always was an elf
[Darkover] Although the implication, judging by their conversation on Aragorn’s deathbed, was that she could have chosen Valinor even then.
[Puma] she had the same lifespan as an elf at that time
[Puma] arwen was never an elf
[FloraWright] elrond had to make a choice he picked elf then his sons had to choose they picked elf and arwen picked elf untill she met aragorn the she gave up on elf so to speak
[Puma] elrond was never an elf
[Demetria] yes, and with her choice, she was still an elf, though bound to Middle Earth
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, but did she have wings, or just winglike shadows?
[Darkover] Again, as I said before, if someone has the youth, immortality, beauty, etc. of an Elf, then that makes them an Elf. But beleive what you want, Puma. Clearly we are never going to agree.
[Puma] the choice of elladan and elrohir is unknown
[Darkover] Right, as FloraWright said
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was technically 3/4 elf, Puma, with a dash of Maiar.
[Demosthenes] If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck?
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] Jennie
[ChristineGolden] lol, pretty much.
[Demosthenes] I get that
[Puma] half elven does not mean blood…its a state of being
[Puma] and what it means.relates to the 2 different destinies of elves and men
[ChristineGolden] Of course it’s about blood, Puma. If you didn’t have elven blood, you didn’t get that choice. Aragorn was never asked if he preferred to be an elf.
[Darkover] Right
[Puma] idril.upon marrying tuor.did not become human.she was an elf
[FloraWright] im part native american and i have dark skin and dark hair if i marry a white man that doesn’t make me white
[Demetria] no, he was bound to the choice of Elros
[ChristineGolden] Very good, Flora! I was going to make a similar comparison, but thought it may not be quite “PC.”
[Puma] its an improtant point jrr was trying to make.sorry if some of you dont see it
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2when u marry a mortal u do not stop being an elf..it is imposible
[ChristineGolden] Arwen and Aragorn, very loosely, Anameleth.
[Darkover] That’s right, Puma, Idril didn’t change. She didn’t have the luxury of choice. But thanks to the Valar, Tuor did change. But up until the point he became Immortal and Elvish, he was a Man. Up until the point she chose mortality, Arwen was a blasted Elf. We are never going to agree, so can we move on?
[Anameleth] Ahh..
[Puma] she was never an elf
[Anameleth] Are we using the book or movies?
[Jenniearcheo] I think they dinged Tuor not because he married Idril but because he was going to retire to Valinor or sommat, right?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2Darkover take the lead…
[sunshower] book
[ChristineGolden] book
[Demosthenes] Okay, maybe we ought to move on.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my
[FloraWright] yes but elrond is a elf he said it him self he’s like 4000 years old
[ChristineGolden] specifically, appendix 5.
[Darkover] Sorry, Demosthenes, if I got a bit heated. But it seems to me we are chasing our tails, here.
[Anameleth] Okay. And puma, she was never an elf?!
[Puma] jrr wrote of this
[Demosthenes] No, i think we’ve exhausted that particular avenue.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could talk about the wedding. That’s usually a cheerful topic.
[Darkover] Sounds good! Especially as Aragorn wasn’t 100% sure Arwen was going to marry him, after all.
[ChristineGolden] And it is only one of two times Arwen is actually in the book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2we will never agree people so why we still talk about this..
[Anameleth] I was surprised at how little arwen was mentioned in the books
[Puma] she was referred to many times
[sunshower] her first time to speak was in Many Partings?
[Puma] but in subtle ways
[Darkover] In that, I think PJ did a better job. We didn’t find ourselves in the last movie saying, “who’s she?”
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2she only talks as queen isn’t she?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: And that was about Frodo specifically. But then it’s a hobbitcentric book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2in the end
[Anameleth] darkover, I totally agree
[sunshower] yep
[ChristineGolden] I hated her inclusion in the movies, Darkover.
[sunshower] We initially encountered Arwen in Many Meetings, got a few second hand peeks at her in a couple of the many chapters since, maybe a glimpse of her in the previous chapter, and now she’s back in Many Partings. Only now does Tolkien allow us to *hear* Arwen speaking.
[sunshower] Why now?
[Puma] arwen was important in the book
[Puma] but its subtle
[Demetria] agreed Puma
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2to that agree
[Darkover] Well, be honest, Chris, you mostly hated all the movies, didn’t you? so Arwen wouldn’t have been an exception
[Anameleth] She was important but hardly mentioned until the end of ROTK
[bld_th] thats why this appendix is important
[Demosthenes] If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!?
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn would have fulfilled his destiny, with or without Arwen, and become king of Gondor. After all, that’s one of the main purposes of the book.
[Darkover] We don’t really find out how important, or specifically in what ways, until the appendices
[Demosthenes] And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo?s neck. ?When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,? she said, ?this will bring you aid.?
[Demosthenes] A placebo? A “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] Does it work?
[Demosthenes] kind of
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I fell in love with FotR. I disliked the inclusion of all the Arwen scenes because it meant ones I loved in the book had to be cut. According to PJ, that is.
[sunshower] not entirely
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but there is no denying that Arwen gave him incentive. And certainly, Gondor would have had a different queen
[Puma] the main purpose of lotr…is as the sequal to the sil….to finish that story
[Demosthenes] It’s not morphine
[Darkover] I see, Chris
[Pete-Slagheaps] He used it after he got back home, “It’s all dark, Sam”–one of those monemts
[sunshower] Frodo carried the Ring on a chain for much (all?) of his journey.
[sunshower] Any thoughts on what his thoughts may have been as Arwen places a silver chain with a white gem around his neck?
[Jenniearcheo] But it didn’t ward off the dark
[Demosthenes] Which is why Frodo eventually takes the boat. I suspect Arwen knew that would happen.
[Puma] it sure helped
[Pete-Slagheaps] nope
[ChristineGolden] Are you saying that Aragorn had no other incentive to reclaim his throne other than Arwen, Darkover?
[Darkover] maybe similar to what Galadriel gave him?
[Puma] that the gem helped frodo is right there in the book.he would clutch it
[FloraWright] the same effect
[Darkover] Of course he had incentive, Chris. But maybe the incentive of love kept him from becoming embittered and/or arrogant along the way, as a simple attitude of “it’s my birthright, I deserve it” might have done.
[Darkover] Just speculation.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2maybe…
[Demosthenes] It helped somewhat i think puma. if it had been wholly effective, frodo would have stayed in the shire.
[Pete-Slagheaps] my “nope” wasn;t to you, puma, it was to Jennie. Even if it did help some, he still spoke of the fact that the ring was gone forever.
[Demosthenes] In a way it’s a similar thing to the Elessar (which came to Aragorn through Arwen) and to the Three.
[FloraWright] he really didnt half to leave
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Darkover, Aragorn was raised to defeat Sauron and reclaim his throne. I think it ran a lot deeper than ‘for love of a maid.’
[Pete-Slagheaps] (On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. ‘It is gone for ever,’ he said, ‘and now all is dark and empty.’)
[Demosthenes] All of those are focused on healing/preserving the hurts of the world. And Frodo is hurt by malice/sting/sword/etc.
[Darkover] But Aragorn might have remained a chieftain, like his predecessors, instead of becoming the King returned, without the additional incentive of, if you want to marry the woman you love, become king
[Darkover] again, we can’t know for sure, Chris. Just my thoughts
[Demetria] yes that choice was Aragorn’s
[Darkover] That seems to be a characteristic of all Elvish jewels, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was one of the thoughts i had in writing the blurb, that one simple meeting ion the woods drives him to become greater than he might have otherwise been.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2as i see it ..everyonr in this books had a choice..
[Darkover] I think you are right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I know, and I hate speculating about fiction since what’s in the book is all that happened, Darkover. I just think that Aragorn had a ‘bigger set’ and a destiny to fulfill, Arwen or no Arwen.
[Demetria] yes they did
[ChristineGolden] Whoa, that got by Barliman. I’ll have to remember that. ;p
[Darkover] I agree, Chris, but the way he fulfilled it might have taken on a very different form without Arwen. Again, we will never know. that’s why people write AU fanfiction.
[Demosthenes] Teasing out the percentage effect of Arwen is kinda impossible. But it’s certainly not nil.
[ChristineGolden] What is the name of G.. is AU fanfiction?
[sunshower] always unwanted?
[Demosthenes] Similarly, would Beren have done the same sort of things without Luthien?
[Jenniearcheo] lol sunny
[Pete-Slagheaps] Don’t ask, ChrostineGolden, you will get ill
[Darkover] “AU” means “Alternate Universe,” Chris. For example, if a fan wrote a story in which Arwen sailed to Valinor and Eowyn became Queen instead, that would be AU LotR fan fiction.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Christine, not Chrostine
[ChristineGolden] That’s good enough for me, Pete, thanks.
[Anameleth] I believe Aragorn had a, almost duty to fulfill, so to speak. To regain the throne. Amidst all of the chaos that he was going through, i believe that arwen was always a thought in his mind, but not his main goal.
[Demetria] no, Beren did it for the love of Luthien
[Darkover] Hey, Pete, there is some very good fan fiction out there. It just isn’t for everyone.
[Jenniearcheo] He was just, correctly, guessing her reaction to the Alternative Universe idea
[Pete-Slagheaps] It’s defintely *not* for Christine, Darkover, that was my point.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2arwen was his beacon of hope
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think it’s very disrespectful, Darkover, but that’s another discussion.
[Demosthenes] Yet “fate” drove him. fate drives Aragorn too. It’s a messy, inexact concept.
[Darkover] lol, I’m inclined to agree, Pete
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2everyone needs one
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Anameleth: Aragorn would have reclaimed the throne of Gondor, with or without his love for Arwen. Totally different than the other elf-man pairs. And why are the elves always women?
[Jenniearcheo] “Mind yer fate!” “My fate?” “Yeah! Them thaings on the ends of yer laigs!”
[Darkover] but providence is not, Demosthenes.
[Pete-Slagheaps] rofl, Jennie
[Demosthenes] haha
[Darkover] Maybe because women are more inclined to give up things for men, Chris, than the other way around.
[Darkover] That was weirdly funny, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Beren gives up a hand?
[sunshower] Jennie! LOL
[Jenniearcheo] It’s Eddings
[Pete-Slagheaps] and his bachelorhood
[ChristineGolden] It’s always a human man and an elven woman – that had to be deliberate.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but not for Luthien’s sake, but because he was foolish enough to think that would make the wolf get out of his way.
[Jenniearcheo] well, not on purpose, Dems
[sunshower] hi Vince
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gues and elven man won’t lower his standards, an elven woman would.
[Jenniearcheo] He thought it would work like Galadriel’s phial or something
[Demosthenes] True! Are there any last points that we’ve missed?
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] No, I think we’ve covered everything Arwen and Aragorn-related
[Demosthenes] I think we may have run through everything on the topic.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2elen men are heartless snobs
[ChristineGolden] Not that I can think off, Demosthenes.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2*elven
[Pete-Slagheaps] Dunno, Demz–I haven’t been here today, ment’ly
[Darkover] So, shall we talk with each other next time?
[Demosthenes] Well, I think we’ll call that a wrap. Thanks everyone. Next weekend we’ll be off to the golden hall. I think that’s right?
Session Close: Sun May 12 09:49:48 2013

Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

It is, of course, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen — the Hall of Fire topic for later today.

‘For a moment Aragorn gazed in silence, but fearing that she would pass away and never be seen again, he called to her crying, Tinúviel, Tinúviel! even as Beren had done in the Elder Days long ago.

Then the maiden turned to him and smiled, and she said: “Who are you? And why do you call the by that name?”

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen

Aragorn is only two years old when his father, Arathorn II, is slain by orcs. His mother, Gilraen, takes the heir of Isildur into hiding in Rivendell where Elrond Half-elven fosters him. And it is there, years later, that he meets Arwen Undomiel and falls in love. It is a meeting that will shape his life, the fate of Middle-earth, and eventually doom Arwen to a bitter parting from her father and her kin.

To what extent does this estrange Aragorn and Elrond? We think of the price that Arwen pays. Does Aragorn make sacrifices too?

Aragorn and Arwen reign for many years in Gondor and Arnor, but at last Aragorn grows weary and lays down his life. For the first time Arwen understands fully mortality. Cold and grey she seems to her people when she sets out from Minas Tirith and finally lays herself to rest on Cerin Amroth.

Tolkien uses beautiful imagery in this text. We shall look at how he particularly uses the twilight and the stars. Why does he liken Arwen to a White Tree? What do you think is meant by Arwen being the ‘Evenstar’ of her people? What does this tale tell us about the ordeals of Aragorn? Do you think Arwen loses all hope in the end?

And what of her gift to the Ringbearer?

Join us in the Hall of Fire today at 6pm EST when we’ll chat about The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Recommended reading

* Appendix A: the tale of Aragron and Arwen
* The Return of the King Book VI Ch VII Many Partings

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Session Start: Sun Apr 28 07:14:46 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s chat topic: Earendil and Elwing | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin?
[Jenniearcheo] Chasin’ after sparklies rarely ends well in ME, it seems
[PippinForTheWin] hi demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready.
[Puma] Earendil….the start of all middle earth writtings
[Puma] welcome lightin thesky
[lightinthesky] thank you Puma
[Phil] welcome lightinthesky and Esther
[Demosthenes] jennie: No it doesn’t. I was thinking about that yesterday. Even when there’s notionally a happy ending, you’re left to wonder…
[Jenniearcheo] Hands burned, bitten off, etc . . .
[Esther] Thanks Phil
[Jenniearcheo] Fingers, too
[Demosthenes] Do Earendil and Elwing counter this at all?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they end up with one, but not because they were chasing after it with murderous purpose
[Puma] so….jrr was beginning to invent what later became quenya….and felt a language needed a legend….earendil was the start of the whole saga
[Esther] I didn’t know that Puma
[Puma] the very 1st lines jrr wrote of middle earth were about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] wow Puma didn’t know that
[Puma] so of great import.the start of it all
[ChristineGolden] And yet, he never finished it.
[sam] ello
[Demosthenes] jennie: Purity of purpose seems to be why they achieve what they do.
[Darkover] greetings, all!
[PippinForTheWin] hey sam
[Esther] the first words about earendil, are they in the hobbit, or where can they be found
[Puma] earendil still remains mostly legend…as does gil-galad
[PippinForTheWin] hey darkover!
[sam] sil
[Darkover] Hiya, PippinFTW!
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Well. At least he gets to sail around the skies and all.
[Jenniearcheo] What’s left to go back to at this point, anyway?
[Darkover] Howdy, Chris, Jennie, Demosthenes, Puma, and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] I hope she likes her tower.
[Puma] it was just 2 lines jrr wrote about earendil that started it all
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they get cable
[Esther] I wish they could be found
[ChristineGolden] It seems that the characters with great ‘destinies’ aren’t fated to be happy-ever-after.
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, they could have returned to their kids, not that either mother or father seemed much concerned about their twins.
[Puma] they are easy to find Esther.i think it is even in wiki about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] nobody really seems to live happily ever after, do they Christine?
[Esther] thanks Puma I’ll have a look sometime
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, sorta, “Oh, man. They got captured. Ah well. Let’s go for a sail!”
[Darkover] Maybe their is no happily ever after, except in Valinor
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe says that Earendil was born to journey to Valinor, Darkover.
[Puma] earendil was also one of most stable names….never changing…but from earendel to earendil
[Esther] very interesting
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, I’m just saying I wouldn’t give him any father of the year awards
[Puma] jrr changes most names
[Demosthenes] Darkover: even those who live in Valinor are locked to the fate of the world. So I guess elves don’t really have a happy ending.
[lightinthesky] christinegolden Earendil was, as I have read, a gift to middle-earth by the valar
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the winds and tides and whatnot kept blowing him away, until he was supposed to make it.
[Demosthenes] More of a mysterious one.
[sam] he has the blood of three races
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t give many of them “parent of the year” award, Darkover.
[Esther] I’ve read the hobbit but I am taking a very long time to get through FOTR lol
[Darkover] As I said on a previous chat, Demosthenes, Elves seem to get “contented ever after,” rather than “happily.”
[Darkover] True, Chris
[Puma] no earendil only had the blodd of 2 races
[ChristineGolden] They kept blowing him away until Elwing brought the Silmaril.
[Puma] elwing has the blood of 3
[PippinForTheWin] there are a lot of people that don’t deserve the parent of the year award… like Denethor?
[Jenniearcheo] How old were the twins at this point?
[Demosthenes] Does Earendil get a contented ever after?
[sam] no 3
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he gets the girl
[Esther] PippinForTheWin I agree about Denethor
[Puma] i think he does in a way Demz
[Jenniearcheo] And he gets to sail.
[Darkover] Denethor could have been a better dad, PippinFTW, but at least he never abandoned his kids
[Darkover] and there are differences between book and movie Denethor
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i always thought that was interesting. Another example of you need a mate to succeed in Middle-earth.
[PippinForTheWin] he would abandon Faramir if he could, Darkover… if he had another son maybe
[ChristineGolden] Usually, Demosthenes, even if it isn’t a love interest.
[sam] his grandparents were miar elf
[Esther] again I agree with PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] I’m not sure Earendil even gets “contented,” Demosthenes. I mean, he said he was weary of the world, and yet every night, he has to fly some star through the sky or whatever
[Darkover] Not much chance of getting a rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Has to or gets to?
[sam] his father human
[Demosthenes] ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father
[Puma] but earendil gets to rest every day also…..with his wife
[Darkover] That could make a difference, I admit, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Does he?
[Esther] really these chats should be about random topics lol
[ChristineGolden] I’ve known lots of guys like that, Darkover – always gotta have something to do, work on, fiddle with.
[Demosthenes] He does get the Silmaril. Some folk would be happy with that.
[Elentari] Earendil made the choice of his fate-I’m not sure he would have chosen to be miserable
[Darkover] Could be, Chris, that Earendil is one of them, and keeping busy at his cosmic task is his way of being fulfilled, or it could be he just sees it as a responsibility
[Puma] Esther.too many random topics….Denethor is so complex.he could be a HoF topic of his own
[ChristineGolden] That never made sense to me, Demosthenes. One of the reasons Earendil supposedly kept sailing was to find his parents.
[Darkover] And has been, Puma, but I agree, Denethor should be for another time.
[Raurenkili] Earendil and elwing, right?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought that was before. On the water
[Darkover] Right, Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] So, why would he be upset about being judged among the elves if his parents were?
[Jenniearcheo] When he was stll trying to get to Valinor in the first place
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Raurenkili
[Puma] and i am sure Earendil did get to see tuor and idril again
[Esther] that is true Puma but I don’t have a lot of info about jrr or middle earth other then a few books and the movies
[Darkover] I don’t believe Earendil disliked the Elves, Chris–I think he just preferred Men
[Jenniearcheo] I read that more as a wistful saying-goodbye to his human heritage
[Puma] Earendil….took after his father
[Darkover] And whenever someone in M-E has a choice like his to make, he or she must be sundered from one species or the other.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Sometimes they go the other way
[Demosthenes] what does “weary of the world” mean?
[Darkover] At least, until the absolute end of Arda
[Jenniearcheo] Sick of war?
[Darkover] Tired of M-E? Sick of fighting?
[Darkover] Sick of having to make choices?
[Puma] weary of the world is different for the various races
[Demosthenes] the haven at the mouths of the sirion had been sacked
[Esther] sick of everything
[lightinthesky] I’d say Earendil was “weary of the world” as in the meaning of he had sailed through everthing, and became sick of it.
[Elentari] tired of the burdens placed on him by mortals
[Puma] and elves
[Demosthenes] Could the Silmaril have wearied him?
[ChristineGolden] Isn’t it that they become tired of the swift passage of time on ME?
[Demosthenes] I wondered that
[Elentari] plus, he wanted his mommy and daddy
[Esther] that seems accurate Christine
[Jenniearcheo] Then? When he made the choice? Had he had it much at that point?
[Demosthenes] jewnnie: hard to know how long they sailed for
[Puma] earendil was also lord of the havens…apparently you can inherit that position thri the female line
[Jenniearcheo] It was on her necklace for most of the time, wasn’t it?
[lunarising] i would think the Simaril would have been wearing
[Puma] thru
[Darkover] Or maybe, once you’ve seen the Valar and Valinor, you get tired of M-E
[lightinthesky] i agree with darkover
[Esther] I have to read the silmarillion for the first time Phil, if I could find it
[Darkover] Thanks, lightinthesky
[Jenniearcheo] She gave it to him, but you’d think he’d have given it back if it was weighing on him overmuch
[Puma] sil is easy to find
[lunarising] darkover: that’s always been my thinking
[Darkover] thank you, lunarising
[Demosthenes] The Valar do somehow seem to change him after?
[Darkover] I think so, Demosthenes
[Puma] yes.they do…..although eru did that
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing are given a choice
[Demosthenes] Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.
[ChristineGolden] It was the beacon leading Vingelot (sp?) to Valinor, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, most normal men wouldn’t put up with the whole flying through the stars for eternity thing
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Demosthenes] He becomes something not-human; not-elf … not entirely of the World anymore.
[Darkover] Kind of like Socrates’ “men in the cave”–once you’ve seen what else is out there, what you came from dims in comparison, and no one wants to hear about it, anyway
[lightinthesky] i mean, in apply to what darkover is saying, all the elves were longing for valinor at some point of their long, immortal lives. So it’s fair to say that he was sick of M-E and so became weary of M-E
[Elentari] Earendil went to Valinor and ever after was unsatisfied with normal life
[Romeniel] Earendil choses not to stay in Valinor, but become the Mariner who then sails the sky as the morning star
[Romeniel] his wife stayed at the shores of Valinor to greet him every day as a seabird
[Puma] and flew up to meet him
[lightinthesky] how nice of her
[Darkover] Did Earendil actually *choose* to become the Star Mariner, or was he appointed?
[lightinthesky] imo, he chose himself to be that
[Demosthenes] Yes those are the facts given in Silmarillion, Romeniel
[Romeniel] he and his wife had the last know Silmaril and he chose himself
[Puma] it seems form evidence.appointed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Earendil was a sailor at heart.
[lightinthesky] or wait.
[lightinthesky] yeah, christinegolden said it before me
[Darkover] I’m talking about his nightly voyage through the sky, you understand
[Phil] well it was either becoming the mariner or death i think
[ChristineGolden] He would have chosen, Darkover; Tolkien was real big on free will.
[Romeniel] Earendil I think was a sailor at heart anyway… it is said that this was part of the nature of his people anyway
[lightinthesky] I was about to say that, he was born with the name “lover of the sea”
[Elentari] i’m pretty sure he wanted to
[Darkover] That sounds reasonable, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Ulmo says this was his “doom”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Lover of the Sea sails high above it forever.
[Romeniel] no, he would just have had to leave Valinor for the choice he made
[lightinthesky] in a way he was both appointed, by fate and/or was destined to be it.
[Darkover] Well, “doom” doesn’t sound like something he would love to do anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Doom isn’t always negative
[Demosthenes] It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’ But Ulmo said: ‘For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?’
[ChristineGolden] Earendil sure had a lot of “doom” in his life, Demosthenes.
[Puma] doom in the sense given means fate
[Esther] I think I’m gonna have to come back for a topic I actually know a lot about lol
[Myra] same XD
[Jenniearcheo] What is Mandos’s problem?
[Demosthenes] He broke the Ban.
[Darkover] I think Mandos is just a person who takes his job very seriously, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] First, he survives the fall of Gondolin, then is kidnapped by one of Feanor’s sons. His parents sail off while Morgoth’s minions are rampaging through ME…
[Jenniearcheo] Dude should lighten up.
[Puma] a special ruling was made for earendil and elwing
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing were something between mortal and imortal… their story was the reason why never ever after something like a true Halfelf could ever be… any Elf who wed a Mortal would be forced to give up their immortality,
[Romeniel] Only two besides Earendil and Elwing who were able to chose their fate were their sons… Elrond and Elendil
[Puma] no Romeniel……idril gave up not her immortality
[Esther] I’m gonna go as well
[Jenniearcheo] Or at least had to choose
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Esther
[Romeniel] Idril was BEFORE Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] Bye, Esther, but come back again sometime
[Esther] I’ll keep this in mind though for a topic I know a lot about though lol
[ChristineGolden] Idril kept her immortality, Romeniel. Tuor, although a man, was judged as one of the firstborn.
[Darkover] The only one ever to get that distinction, I believe
[Puma] so tuor and idril had special fates also
[Jenniearcheo] About Tuor . . . where did he wind up? In Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I believe so, Darkover.
[Romeniel] And they came before Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] I think so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] According to the “Fall of Gondolin,” yes, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] If so, what’s the deal about Earendil being the “first” man to set foot there?
[Jenniearcheo] Or was Tuor dubbed “firstborn” on the shoreline?
[Darkover] Well, the first one to show up without permission, Jennie
[Romeniel] But ever since Earendil and Elwing Elves would have to chose between love and immortality… thus the choice of Arwen
[Puma] but the fate of tuor and idril is closely related to earendil…
[ChristineGolden] I think the text is silent on that one, Jen.
[Darkover] Tuor, as I understand it, was made a sort of honorary Elf
[Jenniearcheo] Except that he’d been kept away by wind and waves until then
[Demosthenes] Tuor would have run into the same issue: either a violator of the ban (by virtue of Noldorin adoption) or a Man.
[Romeniel] no rule wihtout exception
[Puma] now in the early writtings……elrond existed…elros did not exist till well after
[Romeniel] in the early writing Elrond wasn’t even a Halfelf
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Mandos was in a good mood when Tuor turned up. Maybe Ulmo made him a sweet dinner of shrimp scampi to butter him up first.
[Romeniel] he was just an Elffriend
[Darkover] And were Elrond and Elros actually twins? I believe they were, but does Tolkien ever actually state that?
[ChristineGolden] lol, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ohhh, why not. Where did that wine bottle go?”
[Romeniel] Elrond and Elros were twins
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they just ended up on Tol Eressea. Which seems to go by different rules.
[Darkover] Thank you, Romeniel and Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Sort of a doorstep island?
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s in LT.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they came after Earendil and Elwing.
[Romeniel] Elrond tended to feel more drawn to his mother’s choice to live as an Elf, Elros was favoring to be human
[Puma] from tol eressea you can visit eldamar and valmar.but not live there
[Romeniel] that is why Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins
[Darkover] Yes indeed, and from Elros, the kings of Numenor were descended
[Romeniel] distant, but cousins
[Jenniearcheo] Several times removed, of course
[Darkover] *Extremely* distant cousins
[Romeniel] Elrond is Aragorns… grandgrandgrandgrand…..xxxxx uncle
[Puma] more than 50x removed
[Jenniearcheo] “Several” being loosely defined
[ChristineGolden] That’s possible, Demosthenes, but it seems to be one of Tolkien’s “some things remain hidden” details.
[Demosthenes] I always liked Occam’s razor
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Tuor was “eventually” considered firstborn
[Puma] jrr left little hidden….he just left it to us to figure out the answers
[Lady_Celebrian] o.O
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Earendil’s three companions got the better deal?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “vague” rather than hidden
[Romeniel] sweet talking to you guys, but I need to head and sail the skies… sort of… in my dreams
[Jenniearcheo] Sure. Back to ME. No job to do.
[Puma] sweet dreams Romeniel
[Jenniearcheo] No sweet Elf wives, but perhaps that wasn’t their aim
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Romeniel
[Demosthenes] Then at the bidding of the Valar Eönwë went to the shore of Aman, where the companions of Eärendil still remained, awaiting tidings; and he took a boat, and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the East with a great wind.
[Darkover] Maybe, as readers of Tolkien, we are supposed to bear in mind that he wrote most of these stories as if he were a historian or some kind of scholar passing down historical information. In other words, somebody living years after the events happened, so in order to make it realistic, he would be fuzzy on details that couldn’t be ascertained.
[ChristineGolden] I was referring to a quote of his, although I don’t recall the exact words. Simply put, we’re not supposed to know everyting.
[Darkover] Chris just summed up what I was trying to say.
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Puma] well….the 3 sailors….were sent back for a purpose….so they could tell other people
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes. ME was about to explode into the War of Wrath. I know I’d skip that one if I could.
[Jenniearcheo] Trrue
[Jenniearcheo] Hardly a happy clappy time
[Demosthenes] So … try not to get touched by fate in Middle-earth … it usually ends bittersweet at best?
[ChristineGolden] What were they going to tell? They were on the boats the whole time.
[Puma] jrr due to his early life….did have a rather fatalistic view
[Darkover] If you have a destiny/doom, life is not rosy, true, Demosthenes
[Puma] the long defeat
[ChristineGolden] Is that possible, Demosthenes? Everyone has a fate – it just may not be a major one that changes the worl.
[ChristineGolden] It was the RC in him, Puma.
[Darkover] But he still had the attitude that evil must be resisted, regardless of whether or not you have a realistic chance of defeating it.
[Puma] correct
[Demosthenes] And, regardless, together Earendil and Elwing achieve a great good for their people.
[Jenniearcheo] History doesn’t record what happened to those three. They could’ve been on another ship when it all went down, missing the whole thing
[Demosthenes] Without them it seems that Morgoth would have ruled Middle-earth forever?
[Puma] it was said.a wind was made to send them back
[Jenniearcheo] I meant after that, Puma. During the War
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, men and elves couldn’t defeat one of the Valar, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] They sacrifice their … links … to the wider world for the benefit of that world.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil and Elwing complete the cycle of the Silmarillion.
[Puma] remember…the noldor even in the evils they did….fulfilled the wishes of eru….morgoth was bottled up in the north….instead of ranging over all arda
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, for sure. Pleading the case in Valinor, and getting the army mobilized. Certainly saved the world from Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that it was held intact
[Demosthenes] Earendil must have been very eloquent
[Demosthenes] That or the Silmaril somehow helped?
[Demosthenes] one wonders.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe he has Ulmo’s scampi recipe
[ChristineGolden] The story begins with the creation of the jewels and ends with their “disposal,” along with the rise and fall of Morgoth.
[Darkover] At last, a Silmaril was being put to good use
[Darkover] Even Maglor said so
[Puma] Earendil it was said…..spoke in quenya.sindarin….and hadorian
[Jenniearcheo] I feel sorry for Maglor.
[Demosthenes] And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds.
[Demosthenes] Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need.
[Demosthenes] And his prayer was granted.
[ChristineGolden] He was given a choice by Eonwe, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah, but if it wasn’t for Maedhros, he’d have given up on the Silmarils
[Puma] perhaps….or maybe the oath was just delayed for him
[Darkover] For all we know, Maglor could still be walking M-E
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he certainly seemed the more reasonable of the brothers
[Demosthenes] or this from Many Meetings:
[Demosthenes] He came unto the timeless halls
[Demosthenes] where shining fall the countless years,
[Demosthenes] and endless reigns the Elder King
[Demosthenes] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
[Demosthenes] and words unheard were spoken then
[Demosthenes] of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
[Demosthenes] beyond the world were visions showed
[Demosthenes] forbid to those that dwell therein.
[ChristineGolden] Every person has to make their own choices in Tolkien’s world.
[Jenniearcheo] Whining about his hand
[Puma] i always have taken it……..that maglor threw his silmaril in the sea…because he had seen elwing go into the sea with a silmaril…and it was next seen in the sky.did he hope throwing his in the sea would have the same result
[Demosthenes] Bilbo’s version is a little grimmer. Maybe.
[Darkover] I always thought he was trying to get rid of it because it burned him, Puma, and because he was just mightily sick of the oath
[Puma] that too
[ChristineGolden] The Silmarillion says it was because of the searing pain, Puma.
[Puma] remember.the sil is chris.not jrr
[Puma] and reasons can be very complex
[ChristineGolden] It is both of them, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] He edited the Sil, but he wasn’t the primary author
[Demosthenes] It’s always possible to debate “why?”
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, the only author
[Puma] well……….not really
[ChristineGolden] He was a co-author and editor.
[Puma] if you read the later sil as jrr wrote it.its nothing like chris wrote
[Jenniearcheo] Christopher pulled all sorts of things together. But they were his father’s things
[Demosthenes] It is what we have though
[Puma] chris also invented things jrr never did
[ChristineGolden] From what I understand, Puma, there were some pretty huge gapping holes in parts of the Silmarillion. Not to mention competing drafts.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing was much as jrr left it
[Puma] there were Chrsitine
[Jenniearcheo] As has been pointed out, Earendil was fairly early on
[Puma] but only in parts
[ChristineGolden] I have a question.
[Demosthenes] Shoot.
[ChristineGolden] Melian was a Maiar and was able to “assume” a body for her stay on earth.
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] So did Luthien her daughter.
[Puma] no
[ChristineGolden] So, I wonder if this was a “trait” handed down and if so, is that what happened to Elwing when she assumed the shape of birds.
[Darkover] Luthien was born in M-E, wasn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Yes Darkover
[Darkover] And I thought one of the Valar transformed Elwing
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo
[Jenniearcheo] Ulmo.
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] She was down in his sea
[Puma] and ulmo was the most connected vala with the exiles and men
[Demosthenes] Why Ulmo? That seems odd as Manwe is the lord of the air.
[Demosthenes] Tuor’s emblem was a swan though, so that’s apposite.
[Darkover] Well, I guess Ulmo didn’t want her drowning in his area
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . it was a seabird, wasn’t it?
[Demosthenes] He could have made her a flying fish?
[Jenniearcheo] And she flew to a ship. The air was only incidental to it all.
[Darkover] Then she couldn’t have gone to land, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo was different from all the other valar….he was the only one that never lost faith in eru
[Jenniearcheo] I think she had a ways to go to get to the ship
[Darkover] Uh, where are you getting that, Puma?
[Jenniearcheo] Nearly killed her, even as a bird
[Puma] from jrr
[Demosthenes] For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.
[Darkover] Doesn’t exactly narrow it down, Puma
[ChristineGolden] No, I’m talking about when Elwing was in Valinor. She often assumed the shape of a bird and flew out to greet Earendil.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring….
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, then.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, I guess once she had done it once, it became a skill
[Jenniearcheo] Well, maybe she liked the bird thing
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or maybe she learned it permanently from the maiar in Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I wonder if this was a power handed down from Melian to Luthien to Elwing. Because no other elves that I recall change form.
[Jenniearcheo] True! Luthien did that, too
[Jenniearcheo] Hmm
[Demosthenes] Well, both Luthien and Finrod assume a guise … but it an illusion, not a true shapechange.
[Puma] i would ahve to think that over.i am not sure
[Darkover] I’m still inclined to doubt that it was an inheirited trait, Chris. I think it was a gift bestowed on her by Ulmo, although that is just my opinion
[Jenniearcheo] Except she was actually flying, Dems
[Demosthenes] So yes, what Elwing does seems exceptional.
[Puma] i agree with you darkover
[ChristineGolden] Not a trait, Darkover, but a power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Elwing’s nature made the bestowal of the gift possible.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Darkover] Now that makes more sense, what Demosthenes suggests
[Demosthenes] Like opening a tap that was previously shut-off.
[Puma] it was said birds taught her to fly….not that she became a bird
[Demosthenes] So both are needed
[Demosthenes] Each is necessary, but insufficient on their own.
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (i love using that maths logic)
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] It’s an idea anyhow.
[ChristineGolden] “and her wings were of white and silver-grey.”
[Darkover] sounds like an unusually pretty seagull
[Jenniearcheo] Does Bilbo describe Vingilot more than the Sil does?
[Demosthenes] So in this way, i guess Elwing is as much changed by this as Earendil is.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing always remain elusive….we never actually see their personalities
[Jenniearcheo] And apparent armor and weapons on Earendil.
[Jenniearcheo] Is he making all that up?
[ChristineGolden] “the far-sighted among he eles that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining…”
[Darkover] Perhaps because, as the “historian,” Tolkien was just describing the big things they did, and the significance of those events, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: Elrond might have known?
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, maybe. Maybe when he tells the story it’s more complete than we’re reading it
[Puma] like a white bird.does not mean a white bird
[Demosthenes] Presumably, Glorfindel would have some knowledge of the “true” tale.
[ChristineGolden] I’d say because it is a story of deeds, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And not just a handed-down tradition.
[Jenniearcheo] Was he back to life by then?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m only skipping through this book
[Puma] its part of a muth cycle….some is detailed.other parts not
[Jenniearcheo] I’m saving Turin for a time when I’m unaccountably happy and need to come back down
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember him being mentioned in The Silmarillion after the fall of Gondolin, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, so maybe he’s still dead at this point
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[Puma] jrr explicitly says there is 1 glorfindel
[Demosthenes] jennie: dunno. I mean he’s definitely back in middle-earth in the second age.
[Darkover] Where?
[Puma] he was part of the plan
[ChristineGolden] Turin is a tough one for me, too, Jen.
[Puma] that is in peoples of middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I’m bracing myself.
[Puma] since glorfindel had little sin….and in saving earendil furtherd fate….he was released soon from mados
[Demosthenes] Does it say when soon?
[Puma] and he returned to middle earth…about 1600 2nd age
[Darkover] Yes, “soon” can be a very broad term among those who are immortal or nearly so
[ChristineGolden] “soon” in elven time could be several centuries.
[Jenniearcheo] So still dead
[Puma] yes.soon is broad
[Puma] no glorfinel was rebodied and returned
[Darkover] Glorfindel also died a very brave death, so that may have been a factor
[Puma] elves do get new bodies….after a time
[Demosthenes] jennie: I propose that he might have picked up knowledge of the tale of Earendil while he was residing in Valinor. And brought that back with him. Presumably Elrond would be interested if no-one else.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, the Sil just says, “But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away from Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, etc. etc.”
[ChristineGolden] I do think that it’s interesting that it took all of the Valar to defeat Morgoth and to destroy Angband.
[Demosthenes] How accurate or complete that tale was… hard to say.
[Jenniearcheo] “Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright.”
[Jenniearcheo] No mention of mithril and elven glass
[Darkover] Well, Good plays by rules, Jennie. Evil does not.
[Demosthenes] however:
[Demosthenes] `Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
[Demosthenes] Bilbo got up and bowed. `I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
[Puma] i think in part.glorfindel returned…to protect elrond…the last of the line of turgon
[Jenniearcheo] Nor a silver mast
[Demosthenes] So, Bilbo’s version must have been ok?
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] What is allowable exaggeration for an elf?
[Puma] he had records in rivendell.and living witnesses
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, nobody was all, “Mithril and elven glass? What!?”
[Demosthenes] poetic license if you will
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien began a Lay of Earendil, but I don’t think he ever finished it.
[Puma] he might have had some poetic liscense
[Darkover] Presumably, Bilbo’s version had no great errors, although he mentions that Aragorn warned him it was cheeky to make verses about Earendil in Elrond’s house.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ebony arrows? C’mooon:
[Darkover] So, his poem need not have been entirely accurate, either.
[Demosthenes] Well, the language is reminscent of Paradise Lost
[Puma] that just means black
[Demosthenes] Which is highly mythological.
[ChristineGolden] And allegorical, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, no, Puma. They’re talking materials throughout
[Jenniearcheo] His bow was made of dragon horn
[Demosthenes] Maybe Bilbo’s poem is meant to convey the same sort of legendary feel
[Jenniearcheo] his arrows shorn of ebony
* Puma nods
[Jenniearcheo] of silver whas his habergeon (whatever the heck that is)
[Jenniearcheo] his scabbard of chalcedony
[Puma] remember…jrr knew more meanings of words than we do
[Demosthenes] and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.’
[Jenniearcheo] his sword of steel was valiant (his sword?)
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s why Aragorn says that
[Jenniearcheo] of adamant his helmet tall
[Puma] would take a lots of research it narrow down any of his words
[Jenniearcheo] Because his descriptions were a bit on the flowery side, Dems?
[Demosthenes] Yah. I think so. Not because it’s factually incorrect.
[ChristineGolden] a habergeon is like a vest, Jen, think chain mail.
[Jenniearcheo] So Aragorn insisted on the emerald on Earendil’s breast?
[Puma] the elessar
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t say flowery as much as detailed. Tolkien was big on visual descriptions.
[Darkover] Right. Bilbo didn’t know why Aragorn was so insistent about that.
[Puma] and it did take cheek for bilbo to write a poem about elronds dad
[Demosthenes] In one tale in Unfinsihed Tales, the original Elessar stone was made in gondolin
[Puma] aragorn held both in reverence
[dwalin] k
[Jenniearcheo] RE habergeon. Thanks, ChristineGolden
[dwalin] is there anybody
[Demosthenes] I expect it’s a link in that way.
[Jenniearcheo] Lovely old words. Like Calacirian
[ChristineGolden] No problem. (I once did Camelot.)
[Darkover] Cool, Chris
[dwalin]
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry
[Jenniearcheo] I meant something else and can’t find it now
[dwalin] hey chris do you remmeber me
[Jenniearcheo] carcanet. That’s it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Bilbo’s version also talks about Earendil tarrying on errantry
[Demosthenes] But in silm, Tirion is deserted
[Puma] good chat all…..very enjoyable….i have to head out
[Jenniearcheo] Seems flowery to me
[Demosthenes] (i wonder why it was deserted)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I don’t remember how, dwalin.
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Darkover] bye, Puma
[Demosthenes] He tarried there from errantry,
[Demosthenes] and melodies they taught to him,
[Demosthenes] and sages old him marvels told,
[Demosthenes] and harps of gold they brought to him.
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, I’m terrible with names.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bilbo doesn’t mention Earendil leaving his poor wife waiting around standing in the danged water.
[Demosthenes] Nor the three mariners?
[Jenniearcheo] Details, details
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] k
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was trying to save her from the possible wrath of the Valar, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I know. Bilbo just skips over the whole thing.
[Demosthenes] jennie: which is interesting. there are little divergences.
[Jenniearcheo] I like how she makes friends with the locals, though
[Darkover] Well, when you’re composing or singing a heroic lay, you do tend to dwell on the heroic parts, and ignore the rest
[dwalin] does spmebody
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true enough!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, any other points on this topic?
[Darkover] I think we’ve about summed it up
[Demosthenes] jennie thanks for bringing up the poem.
[Jenniearcheo]
[dwalin] i know
[Demosthenes] And the fancy words.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for mentioning it in the intro page
[ChristineGolden] I think we covered the main points, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m glad I found carcanet
[Jenniearcheo] I’d gone and looked it up
[Demosthenes] Okay, i think we’re done. Thanks everyone! Next week we’ll discuss “the white rider”.
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad you could come, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Back to “Two Towers, then?
[Demosthenes] Yes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[ChristineGolden] Btw, thanks for including the reading list, Demosthenes, in the chat announcement. I really liked that.
[Demosthenes] then aragorn and arwen after that
[dwalin] cherers dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Thanks for the chat, people. See you all next time!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, that was very helpful, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] I’ll try to remember to put in a reading list from now on
[Demosthenes] seeya Darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye, all
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Apr 28 09:30:25 2013

“The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him.” The White Rider.

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter V — The White Rider

As Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli follow the trail of Merry and Pippin through Fangorn Forest, they chance upon a mysterious old man robed in white. Or, perhaps, the mysterious old man chances upon them.

His appearance and enigmatic words lead the trio to conclude they are facing the White Council turncoat, Saruman the White. Luckily for them, it’s an old friend bearing some crucial news.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday May 4 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the Two Towers chapter The White Rider.

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Also, TORn regular Puma linked this excellent Youtube video of JRR Tolkien reading from the chapter when the Ents come from Entmoot to march on Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Apr 21 07:26:47 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s topic: The Two Towers. Treebeard!!! | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Let’s start and people can catch up?
[Jenniearcheo] It’s more involved than I remember
[Xanaseb] tis the looooong one yup?
[Demosthenes] jennie: truth
[sunshower] it is long
[Erestel] Hello! What’s the current Treebeard discussion?
[Pete_R] No, Jennie, I was imitating that famous Ent from Brooklyn, Ralph Kramden
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[sunshower] let’s!
[Puma] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPV63iW6gFM
[Xanaseb] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Erestel: We are discussing the unexpected length of the chapter
[Puma] that link is a good way to start
[sunshower] haha Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol Pete
[Puma] jrr himself
[Demosthenes] jennie: i like that as a starting point. It’s surprising … and yet not really.
[Xanaseb] haha nice Puma.
[sunshower] fits with Ent talk
[Xanaseb] indeeed
[Xanaseb] very well hehe
[Puma] nothing like the masters voice
[Jenniearcheo] Well, no forest is worth describing if it doesn’t take a long time to describe.
[Pete_R] I love hearing Tolkien read his stries
[Agonold] It takes a while to say anything in entish, let alone read about such amazing creatures
[Xanaseb] o.o though his ‘to Isengard’ really grates the ears lolol
[Puma] its upposed to
[Xanaseb] yup, desired effect
[Erestel] Ah, yes. A chapter as slow as the mannerisms of the old ent himself.
[Puma] hobbits covered their ears
[laughing_gull] I love that, never heard it before
[Jenniearcheo] I’m more interested in their on-again-off-again relationship with the elves
[Darkover] Jennie, I got the impression the Elves were interested in the Elves once, but no longer
[Jenniearcheo] hah
[Darkover] sorry, Ents
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I thought you meant that.
[Puma] well.to me this chapter introduces us to one of most original creatures in all literature
[Darkover] By this Age, the Elves weren’t interested in much except the past
[Jenniearcheo] As they’re fading, and all
[sunshower] self centered those Elves
[Pete_R] but elves are always interested in elves.
[Darkover] yes, I was unitentionally funny
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Agonold] On Jennie’s point, if anyone here plays LOTRO, an elf complete nerds out when he gets to meet an ent.
[Darkover] howdy, Puma
[Xanaseb] lol.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think it’s more than just their appearance.
[Agonold] It’s like a little kid meeting mickey mouse
[Xanaseb] well, I think the Ents are quite their own overall.. though it’s hinted that they were more.. open?.. in the past
[Demosthenes] There are plenty of novel-looking creatures dished out in fantasy settings.
[Puma] well….other than ents teaching ents to speak…and yes.treebeard had met celeborn and galadriel…we dont know of any ent/elf interaction
[Erestel] When’s that, Agonold? I remember killing a rouge ent at one point and meeting one on the shores of Nenuial.
[Erestel] *rogue
[Agonold] Erestel, its during the epic quest, you meet him just outside of the raided orc camp near the end of the entwash arc with the rest of the crew.
[Puma] so where shall we start?
[Demosthenes] What makes ents unique?
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the walking trees thing?
[Xanaseb] what makes them unique ??????!!…..
[Xanaseb] lol……
[miriel] dems: everything?
[Puma] well….many things make ents unique
[Puma] language
[Darkover] I’m not sure they would say Ents are unique. They remind me of male dryads, actually
[Jenniearcheo] Not many other species transmogrify between plant and critter and back
[Pete_R] and sentient (?) thought
[Darkover] I think dryads were originally female, I mean
[Xanaseb] Darkover… unique in Middle-Earth anyhow
[Puma] i dont know of any middle earth creature as strong as ents
[Darkover] true, Xanaseb
[laughing_gull] I think their relative unknown-ness makes them pretty unique in Middle-Earth
[Darkover] Trolls are, I think, but then, trolls are the dark version of Ents, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] They stand up in the rain to sleep?
[Darkover] as orcs are of elves
[Pete_R] I’d like to see a wresting match between an ent and a troll
[Agonold] according to Treebeard, Sauron was jealous and based trolls off of the ents.
[Xanaseb] lol Pete inded.
[Darkover] Right, Agonold, as I just said
[Erestel] I’d say an ent is stronger than a troll. Trolls can’t split stone with their voice.
[Puma] trolls/ent was just treebeards theory….he is not all knowing
[miriel] indeed Darkover and Agonold
[Darkover] neither can Ents, so far as I know, Erestel
[Darkover] they can tear stone as if it is paper, but not with their voices
[Pete_R] I aree, Erestel, but I still would like to see them fight
[Puma] yes.ents did split stone with their voices
[Erestel] I remember something being said about the power of their voice in battle, during the battle of Isengard.
[Darkover] Maybe it is just as well it takes time for an Ent to make up his mind about a person–not a good idea to get on their bad side
[Puma] it is there Erestel
[Pete_R] but it makes sense, Ouma, since he made orcs based on (eand from) elves
[Pete_R] Puma, not Ouma
[Puma] no.jrr had many theories about orc origins
[Darkover] After all, Puma, neither Sauron nor Morgoth could create–they could only corrupt
[Puma] he decided it was not elves
[Pete_R] since when? I didn;t read that
[Darkover] I don’t recall that, either, Puma
[laughing_gull] I’m pretty sure in LOTR they originated from elves
[sunshower] Treebeard mentions that these Orcs may be corrupted men?
[Puma] have you read HOME 10-11.its in one of those 2
[Demosthenes] I wondered, reading this chapter, whether Ents were the most patient creatures in middle-earth … or the greatest brooders.
[Pete_R] He did say that, and if he recanted later, I missed it
[Darkover] Maybe both, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (maybe one is just the flipside of the other)
[Demosthenes] GMTA Darkover
[miriel] the slowest, certainly
[Erestel] There were several different explanations for the origins of Orcs, but as far as I know the only one that made it into official canon is Elf corruption by Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] The ultimate Middle Earth couch potatoes
[Puma] i think ents are like the forest….not seeming to do much
[Pete_R] Well, ents *are* slow to anger, so that makes them patient, I guess
[Xanaseb] I think they are devoid of many of the characteristics of humans, elves and dwarves.. the nastier sorts…
[Darkover] GMTA? Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] well there’s no evidence for it in anycase
[laughing_gull] They are slow and contemplative but that makes them grow strong
[sunshower] well, Pete_R–Treebeard did have a bit of an outburst right off the bat
[laughing_gull] so I wouldn’t call them couch potatoes
[Puma] true Xana….right off treebeard treats the hobbit in a kindly manner
[sunshower] he did catch himself though
[Jenniearcheo] Great minds, Darkover
[Demosthenes] But we see that Treebeard has been thinking a long long time … and that seems to play into the extent of their anger when they do get annoyed.
[Darkover] Thank you, Jennie
[Pete_R] which outburst, sunshower?
[sunshower] “I will stop it” he boomed
[Demosthenes] In fact, Treebeard says that his first instinct was to squash merry and pippin.
[Puma] till he heard their voices
[Pete_R] but thankfully, he wasn’t hasty
[Demosthenes] Ents are a bit wild?
[Darkover] Happily, he didn’t. Again, it’s a good thing Ents aren’t “hasty.”
[Puma] yes
[Pete_R] I guess that shows that ents *can* act quickly, if ned be.
[Puma] ents are the wild side of nature
[Puma] entwives the tame side of nature
[Jenniearcheo] laughing_gull: My point was the fact that Treebeard had known for some time about Saruman’s dirty deeds but admits he should have done something and didn’t. Then, too, sometimes ents become treelike if they aren’t active
[laughing_gull] true Jennie!
[Darkover] I suspect in earlier Ages, they were not so somnolent.
[Xanaseb] Dems wilder maybe… but also less marred by evil conscience/influence
[Demosthenes] and nature is on its own side. Fangorn says that a few times.
[Pete_R] As Treebeard said, it takes a lot to rouse an ent
[Darkover] They just became that way over time.
[Jenniearcheo] Entwives seem to prefer “ordered” nature. Gardens and orchards
[Puma] well…..remember .in the willowmeads of tasarinan.treebeard had traveled far in the past
[Jenniearcheo] “Peace” meaning stuff growing where you planted it
[Darkover] I agree, Jennie, I noticed that too.
[Xanaseb] wanderer hi
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all over Beleriand and all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gmta = great minds think alike (belatedly)
[laughing_gull] What had changed that made them become more …somnolent I guess?
[Pete_R] I wonder if th ents originally lived in the Tasarinan area, but moved eastward to escape Morgoth and Sauron
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: good question
[Demosthenes] They grew up?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he mentions the . . .what, “great darkness” or whatever? several times
[sunshower] in the Spring–Tasarinian
[Jenniearcheo] The flooding of the western bits
[Darkover] Maybe just the passage of time, laughing_gull. Maybe that is normal for Ents, the way Elves become more past-looking, and start to fade
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe that took the fun out of the world
[miriel] if they change over time, will they change from what we saw in LotR?
[sunshower] Summer–Ossiriand
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s the same reason that elves became less interested in the world around them.
[Darkover] Probably, Miriel
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Pete_R] that would probably do it, Jennie
[Demosthenes] hullo wanderer
[miriel] wb wanderer
[Demosthenes] miriel: I think they change in the span that we see them, actually.
[Demosthenes] And these changes are introduced by Merry and Pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that he mentions deep dark places in woods. But he strongly implies Lothlorien is worse than the Old Forest in this regard. But we saw the opposite
[laughing_gull] Yes Treebeard mentions that later I think
[miriel] they got woken up, for sure
[galenrandir] Hello!
[Darkover] Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Elves taught Ents to speak … what do Merry and Pippin teach them? To be hasty/hastier?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe. Why would ents worry about being captured by fairies, though?
[Jenniearcheo] That seems a mannish sort of worry
[Demosthenes] I think that’s likely.
[Pete_R] Treeberad, re: hlorien: “Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower. Ah well! But it is a queer place, and not for just any one to venture in. I am surprised that you ever got out, but much more surprised that you ever got in: that has not happened to strangers for many a year. It is a queer land.”
[Darkover] I think Merry and Pippin also reminded Treebeard that the Ents are still part of M-E
[Pete_R] Lothlorien
[Xanaseb] lol @ being captured by fairies.
[PippinForTheWin] they reminded treebeard that even though people don’t really care for trees, they can still mke a difference
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . that’s the parallel to the elves, really. Tolkien used to use the terms interchangably
[Pete_R] To not be so self-involved, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] and maybe, that the Ents had a responsibility to more than trees, with people like Saruman and Sauron around
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: like elves?
[Darkover] As Pete said
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s a good thought too.
[Pete_R] exactly, Demz
[PippinForTheWin] thanks
[Demosthenes] There seems to be a certain amount of (elvish) resignation about Fangorn at the start of the chapter that no longer is there at the end.
[PippinForTheWin] i think what really inspired treebeard was that these two little guys were standing up to this huge ent
[sunshower] what is with the liquids that seem to be gold and green?
[PippinForTheWin] so he figured that anyone of any size can change the world
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, there was some spooky light juju going on in Treebeard’s house
[laughing_gull] That’s an interesting point, PippinForTheWin, he had kind of given up but the hobbits hadn’t
[Darkover] PippinForTheWin, I wouldn’t say they exactly “stood up” to him, more like they persuaded him. Don’t confuse book with movie.
[miriel] I think merry and pippin brought to light what he had been trying not to see, even if he knew of it in the back of his head
[Jenniearcheo] Most resignations, through the whole story, tend to disappear with greater understanding.
[sunshower] the blending of the two lights…..hmmmmm
[PippinForTheWin] true… hadn’t read the books in a long time
[Darkover] Merry and Pippin reminded the Ents of their responsibilities, I think
[PippinForTheWin] yeah, that there was still more that he could do to protect his forest
[Darkover] right
[PippinForTheWin] even when all else hope failed
[Pete_R] I’ve read the books 19 times, but I still forget sometimes some events that are movie-only and book-only. Time to read again
[Demosthenes] I think they both persuaded and inspired him. And that carried over in the entmoot. I think, maybe, they were a catalyst for something that might have happened eventually anyway. But which otherwise might have happened too late for either Rohan or for the Ents themselves?
[Demosthenes] What do people think of this?
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Xanaseb] yup
[galenrandir] i agree
[Xanaseb] I think so.
[Darkover] That sounds exactly right to me, Demosthenes
[laughing_gull] I don’t necessarily agree lol
[PippinForTheWin] could be
[Darkover] The Ents would have galvanized themselves eventually, I suspect, but it would have been too late.
[laughing_gull] I don’t think it’s made clear if it would have happened or not
[sunshower] Treebeard now understands “what he is up to”
[Demosthenes] We do know Treebeard was brooding over the destruction of the trees. But that’s all he was doing. He was … fatalistic?
[PippinForTheWin] though i don’t think that anyone with the determination of merry and pippin would at any other time come to him
[sunshower] thanks to M&P, I guess
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he was waiting for someone else to care about the ents
[Agonold] Whenever I read this chapter/ think about the entwives I feel like Pippin and Merry should have went back to the Old Forest and asked old Tom Bombadil if he knew anything about where the entwives might be.
[Demosthenes] Thanks to M&P. that’s … serendipity.
[Pete_R] Good point, Dems. R=The ents were so sleepy, mediatiating on their own navals that it would have taken a prolonged attack on the Old Forest to rouse them, but it probably would have been too late. Merry and Pippin saved the day
[Xanaseb] aha.
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, Tom may only have known if they’d passed through his land
[Darkover] I always wondered why they left.
[Darkover] the Entwives
[Pete_R] Listening to “In Dreams” on Pandora
[laughing_gull] I always feel sad that we never find out any more about the entwives
[Demosthenes] ‘Up we go!’ said Merry joyfully. ‘Now for a breath of air, and a sight of the land!’
[Demosthenes] They climbed and scrambled up the rock. If the stair had been made it was for bigger feet and longer legs than theirs.
[PippinForTheWin] i wish we knew what they looked like
[Demosthenes] So this really is a turning point.
[Agonold] knowing where they went is better than not knowing anything, jenniearcheo
[Pete_R] Sadly, Tolkien said somewhere (Letters, maybe), that the entwives were probably dead.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they favored one sort of home and the ents another. They were less and less compatible as time went on, and then Sauron seems to have destroyed the orderly gardens and orchards.
[PippinForTheWin] did he say that in teh books?
[Demosthenes] Also, somewhat ironically, saruman encompasses his own destruction by bringing the hobbits in contact with Treebeard.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he kill them all? Hard to say
[Erestel] I think it was said that they traveled east, but for what reason I can’t remember, and that the Brown Lands by the Anduin were once their domain.
[miriel] indeed, it is sad, about the entwives
[Demosthenes] I’d never thought of that before.
[Pete_R] Not in the trilogy, PippinForTheWin, elsewhere
[miriel] and even if they were not dead, they had probably changed too much anyway
[Demosthenes] Is that providence?
[galenrandir] I’ve forgotten, is it known what happened to the Entwives after the Brown lands?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. Interesting
[Pete_R] True, Demz, re: Saruman. And Sauron eventually brought his own destruction abiut in a number of ways–making the Ring was the biggest goof
[Darkover] The departure of the Entwives probably isn’t, but I think Merry and Pippin meeting up with Treebeard was providential
[laughing_gull] I’m sure Tolkien would have seen it as providence
[laughing_gull] considering his beliefs
[sunshower] *making* other lifeforms is kind of against the rules, isn’t it?
[Jenniearcheo] We never hear, galenrandir. Treebeard thinks they’ve gone west or something and that eventually they’ll meet up with them. Made it sound like they’d all board some log canoes for Valinor or sommat. Weird
[sunshower] or adapting, rather
[Pete_R] True, if Merry and Pippn hadn’t been captured by orcs and brought to the edge of the Old Forest, the war would have gone very differently
[Demosthenes] It also goes back to Gandalf speaking in favour of M&P after the Council. Someone like Glorfindel /probably/ could not have done this.
[Demosthenes] Don’t you think?
[sunshower] …even the smallest person….
[Darkover] Definitely, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] true
[PippinForTheWin] definately
[Xanaseb] *definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Particularly with the elvish-entish distrust that’s creeped into the relationship
[PippinForTheWin] *definitely whoops
[Demosthenes] Not just because of the weight of history between elves and ents. But also because of the different world-view hobbits bring.
[Demosthenes] yes jennie. the novelty of hobbits forces treebeard to re-examine many things.
[Jenniearcheo] Indeed
[Pete_R] Deemz, that was anither example of gandalf’s second sight. Like when he chose Bilbo. I like it when, on Unfisnished tales, Gimli asks if gandalf knew more than he was telling them about events, and Gandalf wouldn’t answer
[PippinForTheWin] i think hobbits are so untouched by corrupt ways, treebeard realizes that the opinions aren’t biased
[Demosthenes] ‘Why not make a new line?’ said Pippin.
[Demosthenes] ‘Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers.
[Demosthenes] Put us in amongst the four, next to Man (the Big People) and you’ve got it.’
[Jenniearcheo] If the old verses about the peoples of the world are incomplete, perhaps their worldview needs a general rethink
[laughing_gull] Demosthenes would you care to elaborate on the different world-view? not sure I follow
[Demosthenes] ^^^ i think that is more important than it first seems.
[Darkover] and hobbits still take pleasure in life. They are not jaded or tired, like the older species. Treebeard later refers to them as “the laughing folk, the little people.” That may have been a factor.
[PippinForTheWin] they keep to themselves
[Demosthenes] I guess, culturally, Hobbits bring a positivity and “carry-on” attitude that seems to be inherent to them.
[Jenniearcheo] And they seem to care about the ents, once they hear the story.
[laughing_gull] keeping to themselves seems to be something ents and hobbits have in common interesting
[Jenniearcheo] How English
[laughing_gull] ok
[Demosthenes] That’s not something you always get from men or elves or dwarves.
[michael336] In Chapter 2 of Fellowship, Sam mentions someone seeing trees walking near the Shire. I always assumed that these were the Entwives.
[galenrandir] me too
[laughing_gull] me too michael
[Demosthenes] like Darkover says, they are not jaded.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps that’s part of why Treebeard didn’t do anything about Saruman for so long. At one time, they’d been friends. Even though Saruman had never imparted any information, at least he seemed to care.
[Darkover] IMO, Hobbits don’t have the curiosity that the Elves had–or had once–but they do care about people, in a way that is almost unique to them.
[sunshower] breath of fresh air, Hobbits
[Darkover] agreed, sunshower
[Demosthenes] Yeah, all these things.
[PippinForTheWin] i think treebeard thought that saruman would change back from his evil ways, but once he saw all the destruction,he lost hope
[galenrandir] I can see the entwives enjoying the area around the shire
[Darkover] I think you’re right, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s another interesting thought. Did Treebeard hope that?
[Jenniearcheo] True, galenrandir. They do like cultivation
[PippinForTheWin] he didn’t want to believe it, which is why i think he didn’t want to take part in the war
[PippinForTheWin] he just hoped
[Demosthenes] He was in denial that things had changed?
[Pete_R] yes, Demz
[sunshower] elephant in the room thing
[PippinForTheWin] maybe?
[PippinForTheWin] not really sure
[Darkover] Also, the Ents don’t seem too big on making things happen–they seem to prefer to wait for things to happen.
[flufftheagent] hulloooo
[Jenniearcheo] Or he thought that since he was essentially betrayed by the one dude who cared at all . . . Why bother doing anything if nobody was “on his side”
[sunshower] hi flufftheagent
[Darkover] hi, flufftheagent
[Pete_R] he woudn’t accept it until he saw the damage that ors had done to the forest
[Demosthenes] I cannot remember that he ever told. me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face, as I remember it – I have not seen it for many a day – became like windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside.
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Jenniearcheo. how could he know that Merry and Pippin wouldn’t turn out like saruman?
[sunshower] Pete_R, he *had* seen the damage before M&P got there, right?
[Darkover] Maybe that was how he rationalized it, Jennie–an Ent’s first responsibility is to the trees
[Jenniearcheo] Because unlike Saruman, they told him nearly their whole story.
[Pete_R] oh yeah, sunshower–need to read agan
[Demosthenes] ‘I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. ”
[galenrandir] he also liked their voices
[flufftheagent] what is this nit picking?
[sunshower] [--gets movie influences!
[laughing_gull] they “reminded him of something he couldn’t remember” right?
[Darkover] probably they reminded him of Entings, laughing_gull
[Demosthenes] ” he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” that’s an interesting summation of Saruman’s character.
[PippinForTheWin] maybe he hadn’t been that cared for since the Entwives?
[laughing_gull] that’s what I always thought
[Darkover] and an accurate one, Demosthenes
[michael336] I think Treebeard figured, “It’s not our fight.” He and the Ents had lived through ages of fighting among the other races. This is one more instance of the “hastiness” of the non-Ent races. Just sit back and let it play out. it doesn’t concern the Ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Growing things. So, the entwives preferred planned, orderly growing things and the ents preferred wild growing things. How like men they really are
[Darkover] I think that was Treebeard’s attitude, Michael336, until Merry and Pippin persuaded him otherwise.
[Demosthenes] michael336: there’s also a bit of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” going on in this hcapter.
[PippinForTheWin] It seems that the ents are more or less like the eagles- they stay out of anyone’s business unless it concerns them
[Pete_R] true, michael336, the ents had been withdrawn from the world for a few thousand years, probably
[Darkover] well, we could argue that is true for most people, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] treebeard says as much:
[Demosthenes] ‘I will stop it!’ he boomed. ‘And you shall come with me. You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way, too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor will have an enemy behind as well as in front. Our roads go together – to Isengard!’
[michael336] I can see a parallel between the Ents and America’s isolationism prior to WW2. Not that Tolkien was making this connection….
[PippinForTheWin] Darkover, but at least in the land of ME, there are many similarities between the two
[Darkover] But in defense of the Ents, when they do make up their minds to do something, there is nothing halfway about it
[Demosthenes] Tolkien would deny any allegory, I’m sure.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think that’s the flip of being such patient things. Once the patience is exhausted there are no half measures.
[michael336] Not an allegory, but perhaps an inspiration?
[Demosthenes] We see this in the search ofr the entwives too i think.
[Pete_R] Isolationism is as old as civilization, I bet
[Darkover] well put, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Except that over time they ventured less and less far
[Demosthenes] They throw themselves wholly into trying to find them.
[Demosthenes] I guess that is … despair?
[Demosthenes] or acceptance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps. Although I think he doesn’t quite want to accept their demise
[miriel] maybe a mix?
[Pete_R] sounds like despair
[Jenniearcheo] He still has hope
[Demosthenes] A faint hope.
[PippinForTheWin] i think he gains hope from M&P
[Pete_R] as in “The etwives may still be alive, but I doubt if we can find them”
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they remind him of teh Entwives
[miriel] but from his talk, it sounds like he does not want to accept it
[Demosthenes] Perhaps the loss of the Entwives made the ents more fatalistic too.
[Jenniearcheo] Their fave place was decimated by Sauron and he wonders where they went, rather than whether they’re dead
[Demosthenes] I’d never considered that.
[Pete_R] Or entings, more likely, PippinForTheWin
[laughing_gull] interesting thought
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Darkover] could be
[PippinForTheWin] i think he’s worried that the Entwives have forgotten him, and he feels forgotten until M&P show up
[Xanaseb] that’s a good point about the Entwives
[Darkover] and probably left the Ents feeling more isolated
[miriel] I wonder, with their long lives, wether they had a need as strong as other beings to multiply
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] Maybe not, miriel. Ents remind me of Elves in that way.
[galenrandir] interesting thought Pippinforthewin
[Pete_R] Whatever, I’m sure tht Treebeard’s hopes of finding the entwives had been severely rocked, by the time he met M&P
[Xanaseb] I can’t remember the story he tells now.. did he say that they suddenly dissapeared one day, or that they realised one day that they could not find them?
[miriel] the latter
[Darkover] doesn’t he say they lost them?
[miriel] they crossed the river, and made gardens
[Darkover] and now they can’t find them?
[Demosthenes] I wonder, is there a moral in this for us in terms of being hasty versus being thougtful and patient?
[miriel] and the ents only visited now and again
[laughing_gull] I believe they disappeared after an attack by sauron correct?
[miriel] and one day when they visited, they were gone
[Pete_R] They just wandered farter and farther away, gradualy, didn’t they?
[Xanaseb] well, in that case, I think the way in which it happened was so gradual and unsensed by them that they probably wouldn’t have changed that much as a result of it happening IMO.
[Darkover] well, maybe the Ents were *too* patient, and the Entwives got tired of it. I suppose we will never know.
[Jenniearcheo] The preferred habitat of the ents and their entwives grew more and more incompatible
[Xanaseb] ah, well maybe not then
[Erestel] Yes, laughing_gull. Their gardens in the Brown Lands were destroyed during a war, more than likely the War of the Last Alliance.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Jenniearcheo] Or they went shopping.
[Jenniearcheo] And they never buy anything unless it takes a loooong tiiiiime to buyyyyyy
[Demosthenes] Erestel: or when Sauron invaded Eriador. It’s a bit obscure there.
[miriel] no xana, it still must have been a shock, they took them for granted, and then suddenly they were gone
[Xanaseb] yeah, just realised that miri
[Darkover] If the Entwives left voluntarily, I’ll be that is what did it–I’ll bet the Ents took them for granted.
[Pete_R] I remember it was long ago �C in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea �C desire came over me to see Fimbrethil again. Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their
[Pete_R] and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some
[PippinForTheWin] I’m sorry- what book is all this mentioned in?
[Pete_R] Sorry, gDem, uess I’m getting ahead
[Darkover] Maybe they left, but what Pete just quoted kind of implies they all died/were killed off.
[laughing_gull] if you finish the quote it doesn’t
[Jenniearcheo] So they physically changed, as well.Turning brown and bent and parched. If ents can turn into trees . . . can entwives turn into something else?
[Erestel] @ PippinForTheWin: The Entwives story? Treebeard tells the story of the entwives in full in his chapter of The Two Towers.
[Demosthenes] I suspect Sauron’s minions destroyed them all. But there is nothing conclusive to back that up i think.
[Jenniearcheo] There is also a brief bit about their language (they liked Elvish) in the appendices
[PippinForTheWin] ok thanks wan’t sure if another book was involed Erestel
[Pete_R] Jennie, you know the song, “Willin’?” It has the lone, “Baked by the sun, driven by the snow.” That would have changed the entwives quite a bit, I think
[laughing_gull] “some said they had never seen them; some said tehy had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and other south”
[Darkover] Maybe we aren’t meant to know. Maybe Tolkien wanted to leave it a mystery.
[Pete_R] like Bombadil
[laughing_gull] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] jennie: if ents go treeish, entwives go … like fruit trees? like the orchards they made?
[Erestel] Or the unexplained magic influence over the Dead Marshes.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they became corn and were harvested
[Demosthenes] hah
[laughing_gull] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Jane Barleycorn?
[Darkover] What Jennie suggests may not be all that far out. Sounds like Changing Woman in Navaho mythology
[Jenniearcheo] It is ever my hope to be not far out
[Xanaseb] nice, indeed.
[michael336] Thoughtful and patient, yes, but not immobile.
[Darkover] although I admit, that probably wasn’t what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote about them.
[Demosthenes] Would they change so much that the ents would not recognise them?
[Jenniearcheo] Quite possibly
[miriel] possibly
[Darkover] I suspect so
[Jenniearcheo] That’s a way to lose them, I’d guess
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they didn’t want the ents to recognize them, so they changed so they could go wherever they wanted and not be seen by the ents
[laughing_gull] I’d like to think that “their eyes would still be the eyes of our own people” as Treebeard said
[PippinForTheWin] so they wouldn’t be taken for granted again?
[Erestel] That’s a cruel way to play hard-to-get, PippinForTheWin.
[PippinForTheWin] but effective
[Jenniearcheo] More likely they were groves of apple trees . . . and then the war started . . .
[Jenniearcheo] We know what Europe looked like after WWI
[laughing_gull]
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Pete_R] from Lettrers: “I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (S. A. 3429-2441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin.”
[Jenniearcheo] The battlefields seemed to inform both the Desolation of Smaug and the Dead Marshes
[Jenniearcheo] mhm
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: /if/ the entwives had also gone “treeish” then they would have found it hard to flee. perhaps.
[Jenniearcheo] True. And Treebeard doesn’t seem to think of this
[Demosthenes] and, that pretty much nails it down to the last alliance too.
[laughing_gull] what is interesting in all this to me is that it kind of shows how Tolkien didn’t necessarily know exactly what he was writing when he started with an idea
[Jenniearcheo] But then he hadn’t seen them for some time, and might not know they’d become treeish
[Pete_R] of their love of farmingthey seemed to be activ;ey
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they gave up when they started to be attacked and wanted to de as a beautiful fruit tree instead of an ent (which aren’t as beautiful)
[PippinForTheWin] *die, not de
[Darkover] now *that* sounds unduly fatalistic, PippinFTW
[PippinForTheWin] i know
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: that’s a constant in Tolkien (and true of a lot of writers. one’s writing has the capacity to surprise even oneself.)
[PippinForTheWin] but you never really know with Tolkien
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they found the ents attractive. In a treeish sort of way
[Jenniearcheo] Otherwise nobody’d ever have made any entings
[PippinForTheWin] true, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] but maybe they didn’t see themselves as beautiful?
[Pete_R] who, my last post was decimated. What I wanted to say was, Demosthenes, I kinda doubt that the Entwives would ever become treeish, because they seemed to be very actively incvolved in farming, and maintaining their surroundings. Just MHO
[Demosthenes] that’s a fair point too
[Darkover] I’m inclined to agree with Pete_R about that.
[Demosthenes] I tend to agree
[Jenniearcheo] True. But it’s perhaps the point that the planned, cultivated “nature” was more vulnerable to outside decimation than the wild natural forest
[Jenniearcheo] Although that, too, is now under threat.
[PippinForTheWin] possibly
[Demosthenes] I have another question along a slightly different tack for people to consider.
[Pete_R] Now, Pandora is playing “Gollum’s Song” from film 2
[Darkover] ask away, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] We’ve considered how Merry and Pippin change the ents, but what about the converse?
[Pete_R] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the “water”?
[Demosthenes] yes
[Darkover] well, the ent draughts make them a lot taller, for one thing
[Demosthenes] true! too much and the hobbits will be like elendil the tall.
[Jenniearcheo] It broadens their perspective on what constitutes “people”, I’d guess
[Pete_R] I’m sure they both gained confidence, having influenced the assault on Isengard
[PippinForTheWin] i think for the first time, M&P have a chance to be apart of something really big
[laughing_gull] I feel like the ents are some of the first beings who are very mature compared to the hobbits, and yet connect with them on a personal level
[Darkover] and perhaps their involvement with the Ents made Pippin, at least, realize he and Merry weren’t just baggage, but could make a difference in the war
[PippinForTheWin] and maybe now they’re not as hasty
[Jenniearcheo] Back in the Old Forest, they considered Old Man Willow to be an evil entity. Now they might see him as a cranky old guy
[Demosthenes] Does Treebeard’s chiding them for being “hasty folk” affect their thinking?
[Pete_R] They both had their first real chance to make a strong positive contribution to the war
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Tom saw him as a person, and they thought that was part of Tom’s weirdness
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: gmta.
[Darkover] Perhaps, even as the hobbits reminded the Ents that there was a lot to M-E, the Ents made the hobbits realize there was a lot more in the world than the Shire.
[Pete_R] haha–Hennie, does OMW have a cane to shake at whippersnappers?
[Darkover] Thanks, PippinFTW
[Pete_R] Jennie
[Jenniearcheo]
[Pete_R] It probably does affect their way of thinking, Demz, to some extent
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether it helps them “grow up
[Jenniearcheo] One of many things
[PippinForTheWin] i think also after the whole ordeal with the orcs, M&P have this almost parent-like figure who teaches them about wisdom
[sunshower] and in turn they teach too
[Pete_R] The whole experience of being abducted, and then, having to convince the ents to get involves help them to grow up, I guess
[michael336] Merry and Pippin for the first time were “on their own” rather than being “tag-alongs” with Frodo and the non-Hobbits. They move from being comic relief to significan characters and eventually warriors.
[PippinForTheWin] and they’re so confused about the world but they begin to understand how it works
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s one of the great contrasts — both the orcs and the ents offer hospitality … but very different types.
[Jenniearcheo] The entdraught sounds better than the medicine
[Demosthenes] It might be guinness.
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Jenniearcheo] Guiness is good for you
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] truth.
[PippinForTheWin] Merry and Pippin are just exposed to so many new species on this adventure, they don
[PippinForTheWin] they don’t know who to trust
[Jenniearcheo] Puts bark on your chest.
[Pete_R] I vote for Watney’s Red Barrel, Demz.
[LuthienXBeren] lol
[sunshower] ruff rff
[laughing_gull] I have to leave, this has been very cool, thank you all
[Jenniearcheo] Bye laughing_gull
[laughing_gull] bye
[LuthienXBeren] baii
[Pete_R] take care, laughing_gull
[sunshower] see ya laughing_gull
[Darkover] bye, laughing_gull
[PippinForTheWin] yeah everyone, i have to go bye, and thanks for chatting with me!!
[Darkover] bye, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] But the ents don’t seem to expect anything from merry and pippin. their hospitality is like the ultimate in altruism. no strings attached?
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[LuthienXBeren] aww, bye pip
[sunshower] bye PippinForTheWin
[Demosthenes] seeya PippinForTheWin!
[Erestel] Farewell, laughing_gull and PippinForTheWin!
[PippinForTheWin] hope to see you guys next week!
[Pete_R] adios, PippinForTheWin
[Jenniearcheo] True. he offers to drop them off at the border. Seeyaa
[Jenniearcheo] Although he welcomes the news.
[Jenniearcheo] Even though he can tell they’re holding back
[Demosthenes] And Quickbeam is the same.
[Demosthenes] We haven’t spoken much about QB yet
[Darkover] Well, at one point Treebeard admonished the hobbits for telling him too much about themselves, too soon, so he can hardly be upset if they do hold something back.
[Demosthenes] He didn’t want to reveal his true name
[Demosthenes] names and power.
[Jenniearcheo] Quickbeam’s story about the rowan trees was sad, but indicated that the entwives may have been a trifle ungrateful for their efforts to please them.
[Jenniearcheo] “meh.”
[miriel] that poem is one of my favourites
[miriel] Oh Orofarne Lassemissa Carnimirie
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, is there any more said about that, at all? Does someone’s true name become a vulnerability at some point? Is there an old example?
[miriel] Oh rowan fair
[sunshower] the song between ent/entwife?
[Jenniearcheo] No, later
[Demosthenes] jennie: not that i recall. but puma might know of one.
[Jenniearcheo] When Bregalad (Quickbeam) is singing them to sleep
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] the other one I know and love
[Jenniearcheo] A lament for the fallen rowan trees
[Pete_R] The poem is one f the saddest moments in the book, fpr me. Separate question: Would the Ents have the same eventual after-death destination as men and hobbits? Or some place similar of their own, since they are not just plant-life.
[LuthienXBeren] what about the ‘old forest’? does any one believe tolkien was insinuating something there, with the entwives?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, that is a nice one. The seasonal thing. But it underscores my point about their divergent habitats
[Darkover] indeed, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] They sort of seemed to think so, Pete. West was mentioned, and reunions
[Demosthenes] The rollingness of those entwords is really neat.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, that’s what got me thinking bout this
[Pete_R] yes, rolly words are boss.
[Darkover] I’m not sure the Ents would like the Undying Lands, though, assuming they would go there. If nothing ever changes, what would the Ents/Entwives have to tend and to cultivate?
[Erestel] The only instance I can think of that would imply vulnerability in revealing true names is Turin, who took different names to avoid his doomed fate. But as it was said to him (I can’t remember who said it. Finduilas?) “Your doom lies in yourself, not in your name.”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, so . . . moot in the end
[Jenniearcheo] Although lots of folks take multiple names in ME. Elves in particular. And a few Men
[sunshower] folks, weapons, places…
[Demosthenes] They seem long-lived but not immortal? I don’t know. that’s a curly one.
[Pete_R] true, Jennie but I think that Turin was the champeen of fake names
[Jenniearcheo] mm yes. Of course, some of that is underscoring the fact that time passes and people pass and the same place gets a new name
[Jenniearcheo] lol champeen
[Jenniearcheo] How would they get across the ocean? Strap themselves together into rafts??
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[Demosthenes] wood floats
[Erestel] Sea turtles.
[Pete_R] We never heard pf an ent dying of old age. Does that mean they are like elves, that they only die if killed, or if they allow themselves to die willfully, from a sorrow?
[Darkover] “Mom, she’s touching me!”
[Jenniearcheo] Driftwood. Great.
[Darkover] That’s something I hadn’t considered, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yeah i dunno. they seem effectively immortal.
[Pete_R] Jennie, they are walking trees. Wood floats.
[Demosthenes] is treeishness like the fading of the elves?
[michael336] Ah, the power of names….the Childlike Empress to Bastian: “Say my name!” And Fantasia was recreated. (Sorry for The Neverending Story reference….)
[Darkover] Maybe becoming tree-ish is the Entish equivalent of “fading.”
[Jenniearcheo] I think it’s akin to it
[Pete_R] Yeah, Treebeard is “Eldest, which makes him thousands of years old.
[Jenniearcheo] In that we don’t see many walking trees any more, nor yet elves
[Demosthenes] But the fading wasn’t a death, more of a exhausting weariness.
[sunshower] treebeard names an elder ent?
[Darkover] Have we just about finished our discussion? Because it is getting late here, and I am hungry.
[Demosthenes] “can’t cope, off to valinor”
[Jenniearcheo] He says there were three of them left from long ago
[Jenniearcheo] But one probably got cut down by Saruman, off west aways towards (or beyond?) Isengard
[sunshower] right Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we are nearly done. did we cover the outcome of the entmoot?
[Jenniearcheo] Have some entdraught, Darkover
[Pete_R] Nuh-uh, Jennie. Once when I was driving, a tree walked right in front of my car! It wasnt a Budweiser-induced hallucination, no matter what the judge said.
[Darkover] ha, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I see . . .
[sunshower] mmm hmm
[Darkover] OMW is out to get you, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] I believe they end at the first sight of Isenard, Dems
[Pete_R] Thank you, Darkover
[Demosthenes] We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
[Jenniearcheo] So yes, they march
[sunshower] (pretty good movie scene)
[Jenniearcheo] With doom we come! With doom we come!
[Demosthenes] key:
[Demosthenes] ‘Quickly?’ said Treebeard. ‘Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected. Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea.
[Erestel] “Night lies over Isengard.”
[Demosthenes] this has not happened in this forest since the wars of sauron and the men of the sea.
[Demosthenes] Also, “wizards ought to know better”
[sunshower] were the Ents involved in that????
[Pete_R] I recently met a couple in a cafe, He noticed my copy of UT, and asked about it. We talked about the books and films, and he said he was disappointed that the trees and ents didnt show up at Helm’s Deep in the movie. I told him about the EEs, and his eyes bugged out.
[Jenniearcheo] Did the forest once stretch all the way out over those mountains?
[Darkover] Well, Treebeard was right about that. The Istari were sent to make things better, not worse.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Aw, Pete. I hope he bought a copy
[Pete_R] The guy read Tolkien, his date reads Twiilight.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Treebeard may have known more about the Istari than he let on.
[Pete_R] me too, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I read both, Pete. Nyah
[Darkover] He was probably there when they arrived, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Also Gabaldon, Pratchett, and Patrick O’Brian
[sunshower] I think this chapter says he was, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Though switching around can strip your mental gears
[Pete_R] sunshower, I would guess that theor involvement was tp flee from it. fpr their lives
[Demosthenes] Oh, isn’t there a parallel with macbeth here too?
[Demosthenes] or am i mistaken?
[Erestel] How so?
[Pete_R] I’m sure, Dem’s, re: Istari
[Darkover] Yeah, it doesn’t immediately leap to mind
[Demosthenes] trees marching on … something?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, M&P weren’t the only ones holding some stuff back
[Pete_R] Jennie, you’re an under-nerd :-p
[Jenniearcheo] An under nerd?
[sunshower] narnia trees marched!
[sunshower]
[Darkover] Oh, yes, macbeth couldn’t fall until a certain forest moved
[Demosthenes] birnam wood
[Pete_R] Yes, Darkover, Treebeard would have been in ME fr many many many years before the wizards came
[Darkover] and the enemy’s men used the trees of that forest as camoflauge (sp?) so it looked as if the forest was moving
[michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Darkover] well, a marching forest would be really cool, provided it wasn’t marching on *you*
[Pete_R] uber-nerd for reading Tolkien and Twilight
[Demosthenes] Macbeth shall never vanquished be until
[Demosthenes] Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill
[Demosthenes] Shall come against him.
[Erestel] I remember something like that. Tolkien saw Macbeth, and he was disappointed when it turned out the walking forest was men with leaves in their hats, or something like that. I’m probably getting some details wrong.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, Uber. I see.
[Jenniearcheo] I’ve heard that too, about the wood
[Demosthenes] michael336: i read that also. and here we literally have a forest marching against its opressor. Don’t mess with nature is the lesson.
[Pete_R] By Macbeth, Dems, are you referring to the Burnham (sp?) Wood?
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . don’t mess with wild untouched still strong nature. Cultivated nature is more vulnerable
[michael336] There
[Demosthenes] Yes pete.
[michael336] There’s a doctoral thesis for you: The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien’s rewriting of Shakespeare.
[Jenniearcheo] Seek ye out Mythgard Institute, michael336. They offer a Masters
[Demosthenes] Interesting little parallel.
[Demosthenes] Hooom, any final points?
[Pete_R] Did I read the Tolkien was disappointed that he never got to see the woods move in the play, so he wrote bout the Ents? Or was it about PJ, making the films?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Hooom
[Darkover] No, I think that’s about it
[Darkover] This has been interesting, as usual
[michael336] Jennie, I would LOVE to get a master’s from there! I’m waiting until they have accreditation.
[Demosthenes] pete: no, that is the story i’ve heard too. michael336 mentioned hearing it also.
[Erestel] I only remembered the parallel between the Witch-king and Macbeth where no living man and no man of woman born could slay them, respectively, and both were slain by loopholes (a woman and a man birthed via C-section).
[Pete_R] So, we’re at The Ent…The End, I mean?
[Demosthenes] Sorry it was a bit choppy at the start. I took a little while to wake up.
[Jenniearcheo] They say that by the time anyone has the requirements met, they’ll have accreditation. I’m only sorry I can’t afford the pittance yet
[Pete_R] okay, Demz. I am such a lousy typist that I miss a lot of posts, with my eyes glued to the keyboard
[Demosthenes] humph
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: [09:27] [michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Pete_R] K, thx.
[Demosthenes] Okay, next weekend. Earendil and Elwing?
[Darkover] Sounds good. See you all then.
[Jenniearcheo] Byee
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Demosthenes] thanks to everyone for a great chat.
Session Close: Sun Apr 21 09:43:08 2013

Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath.

The story of Eärendil and Elwing

Of all these tales, the ending of Eärendil and Elwing almost seems the closest we get to a happy ending. Eärendil and Elwing are able to stay together despite their trespass of Valinor. But, like the other tales, is there a bittersweet note?

Is the doom that Manwë pronounces upon them a reward, or a punishment? After all, neither may ever return to Middle-earth. In the Silmarillion text, it’s not even certain the pair are permitted to meet with Valinor’s elves. Are they that separate in their fate?

And in the choice — mortality or immortality — forced upon the pair it’s not entirely clear that Eärendil is anything more than reluctant in his acceptance. Are the Valar just? Are the three companion mariners of the tale who Eönwë returns to Middle-earth truly the fortunate ones?

What alternate insights does Bilbo’s retelling give us into the tale?

And, time permitting, we’ll also examine the alternate early versions that Tolkien outlines in the second Book of Lost Tales.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday April 27 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the story of Eärendil and Elwing.

Recommended reading:
* The Silmarillion Chapter XXIV — Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
* The Fellowship of the Rings Book II Chapter I — Many Meetings
* The Book of Lost Tales II — The Tale of Eärendil

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‘Yes,’ said Pippin; ‘I’m afraid this is only a passing gleam, and it will all go grey again. What a pity! This shaggy old forest looked so different in the sunlight. I almost felt I liked the place.’

‘Almost felt you liked the Forest! That’s good! That’s uncommonly kind of you,’ said a strange voice. ‘Turn round and let me have a look at your faces. I almost feel that I dislike you both, but do not let us be hasty. Turn round!’

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter IV — Treebeard

There’s something about this chapter that just sets Middle-earth apart from stock fantasy settings. But what?

Is it just the fact of the invention of the Ents? Is it the way Tolkien invests Treebeard and Quickbeam with a distinct humour and personality, injecting levity at a point where the quest is turning grim? Is it the unusual way Tolkien positions the Ents as a third separate, and often-neglected force?

As Merry and Pippin soon discover, the patience of the Ents is legendary, but not inexhaustible. Yet they also prove gracious and benevolent hosts, a distinct contrast to the handling the hobbits received at the hands of the orcs.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday April 20 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the Two Towers chapter Treebeard!

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How long do your topic chats go for?

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Session Start: Sun Apr 14 07:13:01 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
[Demosthenes] Let’s kick off.
[Demosthenes] Odd observation to begin: we speak of Aragorn and Arwen. And Beren and Luthien. But … why is it Idril and Tuor? I found that interesting.
[Puma] good point
[miriel] very easy
[Puma] but idril was a great power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t understand. Why not?
[miriel] Ara vs Arw
[miriel] B vs L
[miriel] I vs T
[miriel] just alphabetical
[miriel] logical order
[miriel] makes them all equal, IMO
[Demosthenes] Hmm, is that it?
[ChristineGolden] Idril and Tuor were one of the three great unions of elves and men.
[Puma] tuor was not of the 1st line of chieftains of house of hador
[miriel] oh
[Puma] house of hador
[miriel] and also, Tuor joined the Elves in their fate
[Puma] yes
[miriel] unlike the others
[Puma] the only one to be so admitted
[brennil] Tuor was pretty much just a wanderer till he came to Gondolin, right?
[miriel] where it was the elf that joined the Men
[ChristineGolden] Without Tuor and Idril, there is no Earendil, so I think their union was very important.
[Puma] well……tuor had never known his father or mother
[miriel] indeed, it was
[Darkover] Greetings, all!
[Puma] when 1st written….idril and tuor was the 1st union of elves and edain
[Demosthenes] I don’t think that either Aragorn or Beren came from great estates either. Maybe higher on renown, but … not much in the way of possessions.
[ChristineGolden] Plus, Turgon was the High King of the Noldor, so the fall of Gondolin would be noteworthy.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] That’s an interesting parallel between the three in fact.
[Darkover] howdy, Chris!
[miriel] one important change from other unions as well: the father gave away his daughter´s hand without any complaints
[miriel] hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] They all start from reduced circumstances.
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel! Hello, Demosthenes!
[Puma] yes.turgon was actually happy about the union
[Demosthenes] hiya Darkover
[Finarfin] I like what miriel said earlier about Tuor joining Idril’s fate. It’s as if the “leader” of the pair is the one whose fate is shared by both.
[Elrenia] Hi everyone
[Darkover] Tuor was sent by the Valar, though, wasn’t he? So he sort of had that going for him
[ChristineGolden] Ulmo, I believe.
[Puma] but tuor was raised by elves in hiding….then he was enslaved by the evil men in hithlum
[Demosthenes] Finarfin: well, i wondered if the naming order implied that /idril/ is the … boss … for want of a better word.
[miriel] and indeed: Idril was the one that plotted the secret tunnel, which ultimately saved their lives
[Finarfin] haha
[miriel] ulmo, indeed chris
[Finarfin] maybe so
[Darkover] Right, thanks Chris
[Finarfin] g2g early friends
[Darkover] Hi, Elrenia
[Finarfin] adieu
[Puma] in LT2.it says idril had a great great gift of foresight….not gone into in sil
[miriel] hi all new names
[miriel] it is mentioned there as well puma
[Puma] ah
[Demosthenes] Yeah it is. In relation to the secret way in particular.,
[Puma] and idril did bear arms…..the other 2 did not
[Demosthenes] I don’t think Luthien needed weapons. she proved that pretty well in morgoth’s throne room.
[Mimi_Sardinia] other two?
[miriel] “but idril celebrindal was wise and far-seeing, and her heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit as a cloud”
[miriel] ^silm
[Puma] true enough….luthien had vast power
[ChrisHobbit] Helloooo my elvish friends
[Darkover] Maybe we could say Luthien didn’t need conventional weapons, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Puma] miriel….in lt2 more detail is given….saying her gift was way beyond others
[Demosthenes] So what is it about this pair that makes them great?
[Darkover] Tuor was so much like an elf, didn’t the Elves of Gondolin initially find it hard to believe he was a mortal Man?
[Darkover] It’s like he was an honorary Elf, having been raised among them, and among them more than among Men
[miriel] indeed darkover
[Puma] well.tuor was the tallest of all the edain
[ChristineGolden] 1) They were the parents of Earendil and 2) they saved the remnants of the Noldor in Gondolin.
[Darkover] And we know of Tolkien’s obsession with height
[miriel] but that was also due to the fact that he spoke with the …urging of ulmo, one could say
[ChristineGolden] Without them, wouldn’t the line of the high kings have died out?
[Puma] but when tuor went to gondolin….he had no experience with women at all…but for those that had enslaved and mistreated him
[Darkover] Quite so. How many other Men, or Elves, can say that, Miriel?
[miriel] indeed
[Puma] yes.it is thru idril and tuor that the line of finwe survived
[Tim_Bombadil] Ho ho Ho! Dallydo Dally dum, Tim Bombadil thinks this is Fun!
[ChristineGolden] And came together with the line of Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien.
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the union of the lines of the peredhil
[Demosthenes] luck?
[miriel] it is interesting to see how they all sooner or later marry in the great lines
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[ChrisHobbit] seems like you guys have much more knowledge of this then i do
[miriel] apart from dwarves and elves
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think it was luck as much as fate, Demosthenes, fate with a healthy dose of free will.
[Puma] its also one tale in which a vala did take an active part….which was not the norm
[Puma] i mean in person
[Puma] and surely turgon remembered the words of huor to him at the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor dilly dallied far too long, So long he almost missed Turgon’s song!
[Puma] out of your house and mine.a new star shall arise
[Darkover] literally, it seems
[Puma] in gondolin.tuor receieved an education such as no otehr of the edain had had….
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether the real greatness of Idril and Tuor lies in saving the remnant of the Gondolindrim. Which, a bit like Boromir’s long ride from Gondor to Rivendell gets a bare few lines of description.
[Demosthenes] A sort of Dunkirk, if you will.
[Puma] its one of my great sadnesses that jrr never finished the post lotr version of fall of gondolin
[ChristineGolden] I like that comparison. It’s very “apt.”
[Darkover] Right. Nobody ever sings any songs about the people who just take care of business. Eowyn would understand that.
[Puma] also of borondirs ride to get the eotheod
[Demosthenes] From Cirion and Eorl?
[ChristineGolden] “They also serve who only stand and wait,” Darkover?
[Puma] but yes.the saving of a remnant of gondolin was of great import
[Demosthenes] That’s a bit like Phidippides marathon run.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, exactly! But they don’t get as much, if any, praise.
[miriel] I think the main point is that they saved themselves
[Puma] gondolin did have the highest culture of the noldor
[miriel] aaand a couple of other people just tagged along
[Puma] glorfindel earned a right to a swift return to life….for furthering the escape
[ChristineGolden] I think the most important part of the tale, other than as another step toward the coming of the Valar, the story’s main importance is Earendil.
[Demosthenes] They do seem to “run” the refugee camp? at the mouths of the sirion?
[Puma] and actually they saved a good number of people
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] And Elves have come perilously close to being wiped out several times, Elder race or not. Men may be weaker, but we seem to have better survival power as a species.
[brennil] Idril seemed to be wise, well-respected. Why didn’t she warn the others when she felt a dark foreboding?
[miriel] we are just more adaptive, I think Darkover
[miriel] r-strateges
[Demosthenes] Turgon was stubborn. If he’s not going to listen to Ulmo, who will he listen to?
[ChristineGolden] A lot of the elven kingdoms had isolated themselves, Darkover, allowing Morgoth to ‘divide and conquer.’
[miriel] vs K-strateges
[brennil] elves get too comfortable in their long lives
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. Idril and Tuor are so important, for all the reasons we’ve enumerated here.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe she did, but either they didn’t believe her or thought it not very likely.
[Puma] i am glad we are discussing them.they seem to get short shrift compared to the other 2
[Demosthenes] in some ways, Tuor’s mission from Ulmo was a vain one. Mission impossible.
[Darkover] Right, Chris. And Miriel, there’s nothing “just” about being able to adapt, it is a survival characteristic. Elves may be hardier, but they never seem to want anything to change.
[Demosthenes] And in that way maybe a red herring
[Puma] turon had grown to proud
[Puma] turgon
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. The Valar may give good advice, but that doesn’t mean others take it.
[miriel] indeed, I think that the separating is a bad thing. Many times we see that together they stand, separated they fall
[Puma] about the possession of gondolin….and we know over possessivness is never rewarded in jrr
[Demosthenes] Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: ‘Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.’
[Demosthenes] But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it;
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though not a total red herring, they survived and Earendil lived to reach Valinor
[Demosthenes] Also, Maeglin
[Darkover] True, Miriel, but as members of the race of Men, we can’t exactly criticize about that.
[miriel] true
[Darkover] That rat. I don’t blame him for caving under torture, but I do blame him for not warning the others when he returned.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: I wonder if ulmo had some weird matchmaking plan. What did Ulmo know?
[Darkover] He wanted Idril for himself, and he didn’t care how many had to die.
[Demosthenes] maybe that’s reaching
[miriel] I agree: cracking during the torture, but not shouting: they found out!!! when he returned, now that is unforgiveable
[Puma] remember….though elves live long….they only have childrn for a short span of those yrs….so an elf can be 5000 yrs old.still only have 3 offspring
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maybe Ulmo knew there was a possibility if Tuor went to Gondolin, therefore he pushed, but ultimately it was Tuor and Idril’s choice.
[Puma] ulmo knew best the music
[miriel] indeed: K stratege: live long, get few offspring and invest a lot in those few
[Darkover] Which is one reason why, Puma–and I’m not trying to be risque or funny–I suspect Elves’ sex drive must be almost nonexistent, compared to mortals.
[Demosthenes] Ulmo arranges the pieces, but the pieces still have to do what they’re supposed to. We saw that Turgon didn’t.
[miriel] while men could get many, and therefore likely one of them would survive
[Puma] jrr explains all that in HOME.morgoths ring
[Darkover] I think Mimi_Sardina has it right
[Mimi_Sardinia] Being immortal, if they kept breeding, they’d have over-population issues.
* Puma nods
[miriel] possibly Mimi_Sardinia
[Darkover] Right
[brennil] they also had more important things than children
[miriel] and indeed, Mimi_Sardinia
[Puma] but jrr said longeval.not immortal
[Puma] the elder children were never fated to dominate the earth….but to bring it beauty
[Mimi_Sardinia] You sure Puma? Every reading I’ve made said immortal.
[miriel] well, if we are picking on words, but practically it was almost the same: without outside factors, they live as long as arda stands
[Puma] he corrected it in morgoths ring
[Mimi_Sardinia] What miriel said.
[miriel] they only die of sorrow, or wounds
[Puma] their fea lives as long as arda
[Puma] not necessarily their hroa
[Darkover] I agree with mimi. Elves can be killed, of course, or they can “fade” in a manner that apparently Men cannot, but in the normal course of events, they are Immortal, I think
[Puma] they actually do age
* miriel nods at Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ahh, well either way, they have lives thousands of years long. Cirdan is something like 11 thousand and still going.
[Puma] jrr does explain in writting most dont read
[Mimi_Sardinia] So even if they’re not *exactly* immortal, they couldn’t breed willy-nilly.
[Puma] cirdan is older than 11000 yrs
[miriel] indeed, the main point still stands: if they got kids like Men, arda would perish under them
[Darkover] Well, he wrote, rewrote, and contradicted himself a lot, Puma, so it is hard sometimes to know what canon is, and what it is not.
[Darkover] Right, what Miriel said.
[Puma] its not as difficult as some make it darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] So they have a short but happy period where they breed, then lay off and just raise what they’ve had.
[Puma] and do other tasks
[Mimi_Sardinia] And like someone said before, invest in the few they have.
[miriel] yup mimi
[Puma] most elves marry when they are about 50.though of course we know exceptions
[Mimi_Sardinia] pretty much most of the really historic ones delayed.
[Puma] no
[Mimi_Sardinia] “Strange fates” and all that
[Demosthenes] Idril and Tuor definitely have a strange fate.
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] (I’m going to segue off that)
[Darkover] Not one that even people with foresight could easily have forseen
[Puma] and they were accepted back to valinor.even though there was a ban
[brennil] a ban on the mortal or on all, including elves?
[miriel] in some ways, they are a bit of a means to an end
[Demosthenes] That seems so weird to me.
[Demosthenes] and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I thought the ban was on all during the First Age
[Puma] they were the ones that get to live long together….while the other 2 jsut had mortal lives
[Darkover] Does that mean he didn’t die, I wonder?
[Mimi_Sardinia] A punishment for the Exodus
[miriel] ah indeed, that is an odd point dems
[Puma] mimi.for all it seems but idril and tuor
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “So it is said” (letter #153)
[Darkover] Besides, I thought the Valar didn’t have the power to withold the “gift to Men”
[miriel] but if they could have gone there, they could have done all the Eärendil-purpose years earlier
[Puma] darkover….the valar had a convo about it .i forget which book….and tuor was granted the life of the eldar….asa counterpoint to beren and luthien
[miriel] does this mean they might actually not have reached valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I think it was interesting to make one of the three couples choose “elf” instead of “man” like Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen.
[Demosthenes] A lot of first age stories have the quality of a folk tale
[miriel] there is no note of Eärendil meeting up with them, for example
[Demosthenes] And that bit more than most i think.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma – that counterpoint was always my reading of it.
[Puma] there is actually a valar convo
[Mimi_Sardinia] That maybe Tuor was a balance to Luthien.
[Demosthenes] Mimi_Sardinia: that’s something to consider
[Darkover] Well, since Idril was full Elf, and Tuor biologically at least was full Man, I don’t believe they would have had a choice, had not one been offered.
[Darkover] Luthien got a choice, because she moved mandos to pity. Arwen got a choice, because although she was mostly Elven, she had Man’s blood.
[miriel] that would make sense as to the Arwen-frodo/bilbo counterpoint “you will take my place” …
[Puma] and also.theycould not do earendils job…..since neither was peredhil
[Puma] actually.arwen could not grant that
[Mimi_Sardinia] Ultimately I think the only one who could really grant it would have been Eru, but He did have ways of communicating with the Valar.
[Darkover] Again, Earendil had the blood of both races
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, the Half-Elven were Earendil and Elwing’s children.
[Darkover] Maybe we’re meant to assume that is what happened, Mimi
[Demosthenes] Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.
[Puma] both easrendil and elwing were peredhil also
[Demosthenes] Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.
[Demosthenes] (food for the discussion)
[miriel] yes, well, I did not mean that they would get immortal life, I meant the taking her place on the ship
[Mimi_Sardinia] I did get told while discussing Bilbo and Frodo that they don’t necessarily get immortality, even though they went to Valinor.
[Puma] yes.only eru could alter fates
[Darkover] That is what I was thinking–it would have to be Eru’s decision, not the Valar’s
[Puma] both bilbo and frodo die
[Puma] jrr said so
[Demosthenes] Yeah, i find that “it is supposed” interesting
[Puma] but i suspect frodo would wait for sam
[brennil] wait…they go to Valinor though right?
[Darkover] I always believed neither Bilbo nor Frodo got immortality; they just got relief from their mortal illnesses, aches, and pains by living in Valinor
[samsbestfriend] yeah, i wouldn’t imagine they’d get immortal life
[miriel] me too Darkover
[Mimi_Sardinia] Yeah, that’s what I got told.
[Tim_Bombadil] The light of Aman was said to hasten the end of life for those of Mortal life
[miriel] to give them immortality, that would make no sense
[samsbestfriend] possibly longer life though
[Darkover] When you think about it, it would be a curse, not a blessing, to be as old as Bilbo, and then be immortal from that time forward.
[miriel] indeed Darkover
[Demosthenes] that’s not a confirmation that the story is actually true. in fact i think it casts some doubt on it.
[Puma] its the deathless that live in aman .not the land itself which confers immortality
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe DID decide with Earendil and Ewing, Demosthenes.
[samsbestfriend] Demosthenes: which story?
[Darkover] Well put, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Earendil and Elwing were both half-elven, so they had the choice
[Puma] manwe acts as regent for eru
[brennil] do we have any idea if there is a “place” souls go after death?
[Demosthenes] that “in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.”
[Tim_Bombadil] Frankly…. I think the story of Tuor and Idril is my favorite… even though JRR spent so much more time on Beren and Luthien…. and left so much more to be told about Tuor’s time in Gondolin..
[Darkover] Well, I was thinking that you just told us that–we do pay attention
[samsbestfriend] ah
[miriel] it might be the safety clasue added by the writer just so that readers cannot complain
[ChristineGolden] “Manwe gave judgement, and he said: ‘In this matter the power of doom is given to me….”
[Darkover] Why is this one your favorite, Tim?
[Demosthenes] it doesn’t say by whom it was sung.
[Tim_Bombadil] Tuor’s character is multifaceted…
[miriel] I think it was sung generally
[Puma] jrr always said there were 3 great stories….tcoh.beren and luthien….and fall of gondolin
[Darkover] Well, since as far as I know, the only One more powerful than Manwe is Illuvatar, that seems self-evident.
[miriel] but they could in fact be asleep on one of those islands on the way to valinor
[Puma] but he seems never to have spent the time on th last that he did on the other 2
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that he sees Turin on his way to Gondolin?
[Mimi_Sardinia] brennil – Elves reside in Mandos, a place definitely located in the World. Men however disappear out of the World, presumably they go to Eru.
[Demosthenes] It might be a tale of Numenor. Tuor was revered there iirc.
[Tim_Bombadil] The story lines that this intersection brings to bear are huge
[brennil] thanks Mimi
[Darkover] Quite so, Tom
[Darkover] This story is a prime example of how one thing can affect so many other things.
[ChristineGolden] As are the story lines that develop from it.
[Darkover] Sorry, “Tim”
[Puma] i dind it interesting also….tuor used an axe…not the usual swords of elvesd and men
[miriel] I find that a very nice linking to the other stories, that they see Turin, and do not know who he is
[Darkover] Maybe he was just better with an axe, Puma
[Puma] no way to know
[Tim_Bombadil] The idea that Ulmo had planned Tuor’s fate… and drew him out of hiding with the spring…
[Puma] perhaps
[Puma] but ulmo knew enen b4 turgon founded gondolin
[Demosthenes] Axes make me think of Varangians.
[Tim_Bombadil] Can I ask? Wasn’t Tuor also a musician? Did he not carry a harp with him and sing in the echoing Mountains?
[Puma] he can sing.yes
[Tim_Bombadil] Where Melkor himself pasted his essence in wails of pain from Ungoliant?
[Darkover] He made a song for his son
[miriel] he certainly was fascinated by the sound of the ocean
[miriel] I think this is often linked to music in arda
[Puma] tuors house the house of the swan wing was one of 12 houses of gondolin
[mib_gcihc6] i thought it was hurin who wielded an axe?
[Puma] only in the nirnaeth
[Tim_Bombadil] In the Unfinished tails…. it is said that after passing through the gate of the noldor?
[Demosthenes] yes, i think that is right.
[Puma] also gelmir and arimas are a link between turin and tuor…as they had met both
[Tim_Bombadil] whoops./// gtg/// brb/// love this stuff… (That’s also why I like Tuor. He played music. The only other folks I know who JRR wrote in that played music were all smoke and no fire…
[Darkover] bye, Tim!
[Demosthenes] seeya tim!
[Puma] but the best gondolin musician were in the house of the harp
[samsbestfriend] you’d think he’d have more music players since he loves songs so much
[Puma] but most “magic’ is done by singing.there is a lot of singing
[Demosthenes] There is.
[Puma] aragorn sings over frodos wound for instance
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb!
[Demosthenes] And most of the characters can carry a verse or two.
[Puma] Xana!!!!
[Xanaseb] hi
[samsbestfriend] not to mention the creation of the world
[Demosthenes] Aragorn does it quite nicely. We see that repeatedly. Tuor has his harp. Not sure about Beren…
[Puma] luthien sang morgoth to sleep
[Xanaseb] this about musicality?
[Puma] hurin sang,played a harp
[ChristineGolden] I guess.
[Mimi_Sardinia] I always felt music ability was something cast as very common.
[Puma] yes
[miriel] oh, as a side note completely off current topic: had not realized that Maeglin was the son of Eöl
[mib_gcihc6] these stories are referred to as lays
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether Idril was musical.
[mib_gcihc6] lays being poems that are sung
[Darkover] Mention was made that Tuor played a harp and sang, and we were weighing in with how many people sang or played instruments, Xanaseb
[Puma] actually idril and tuor was never one of the lays
[Xanaseb] O.o miri, when did you realise?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Not exactly strange though, the Great music aside, music was a way of preserving and transmitting information and history.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Xanaseb] nice Darkover
[Xanaseb] cool point of discussion!
[Darkover] TY, Xanseb
[Demosthenes] Yes that’s right Mimi_Sardinia
[miriel] I thought their fates were so alike, in a way, and looked it up
[samsbestfriend] i heard idril was a good lay though
[Mimi_Sardinia] LOL
[Darkover] And I imagine most Elves could sing or play, given that they had extraordinarily long lives to get good at both.
[miriel] probably
[mib_gcihc6] maglor for instance
[Puma] among elves it was mostly the men who sang….though there are exceptions
[Darkover] I always got the impression that Maglor was the Mozart of the First Age
[Darkover] just a thought
[Puma] other than daeron
[Darkover] quite so, Puma
[Mimi_Sardinia] Maglor was also Valinor-born. Valinor residents were always cast as being better at stuff.
[Puma] i wish we had the noldolante
[Mimi_Sardinia] Guidance of the Valar, time to learn, all that.
[Darkover] Me too, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was born in Middle Earth, Mimi, not Valinor.
[Puma] yes.long residence in valinor.people dont realize finwe ruled the noldor longer than any of the hi kings
[Mimi_Sardinia] Though she had exceptional parentage
[Demosthenes] Luthien is unique.
[Demosthenes] heya mibmib
[Puma] luthien was 1/2 maia
[mib_gcihc6] i would have thought finarfin ruled the nolder longer
[mib_gcihc6] while in valinor
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien had personal guidance of a Maia mother, and a father who, though wasn’t a long-term resident, had visited Valinor.
[Puma] finarfin was not accounted hi king
[ChristineGolden] I was addressing Mimi’s point about the best elven artists were always better if they had lived in Valinor.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, what made them unique. Maglin’s treachery. Choices of the Peredhil, and how many in M-E played instruments and/or sang–in a nutshell.
[Puma] the calaquendi did have the greater power
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Eol going to Valinor.
[Puma] and elwe though king of the moriquendi was calaquendi
[Puma] eol never did
[Mimi_Sardinia] He didn’t, unless you count Mandos.
[Xanaseb] good point, Eol was always in middle-earth of course.
[Darkover] Another thing about Tuor that I don’t believe any of us have mentioned; he was the one who led the remnants of Gondolin to the mouth of Sirion, and even though he wasn’t an Elf, no one seems to have questioned it.
[Puma] eol was more dwarf like than other elves
[Mimi_Sardinia] Wasn’t Eol a friend of the dwarves?
[ChristineGolden] Well, you just said that Luthien’s father visited Valinor, Mimi.
[mib_gcihc6] maybe after turgon accepted him
[Puma] yes mimi
[Demosthenes] As someone pointed out, it’s very frustratinvg that Tolkien stopped his revision of the fall of gondolin just as Tuor arrived /at/ Gondolin. Because I wonder what else we might have found out sabout Idril had he continued.
[mib_gcihc6] everyone in gondolin followed suit
[Mimi_Sardinia] Luthien’s father was Elwe, also known as Elu Thongol.
[Puma] the only full gondolin story is in lt2….and it is his most ancient tale
[Demosthenes] yeah it has hollow metal dragons n such. and still not a lot about idril.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elwe was one of the three ambassadors who first went to see what Valinor was like and come back to tell their people it was good.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, and to my knowledge, he never visited Valinor, so I’d like your source, Mimi.
[Puma] when reading it.you can see the infuence of ww1 on jrr
[Mimi_Sardinia] Are you still equating Elwe with Eol?
[Demosthenes] Yeah, it’s obvious. Napalm. (or equivalent)
[Puma] christine….what was your question.i missed it
[ChristineGolden] [slaps self] Yes, I am. Sorry about that – I’m awful with names.
[Puma] ah
[Mimi_Sardinia] It might be easy when you compare Elu with Eol
[Mimi_Sardinia] Elu being Elwe’s Sindarin name
[Puma] eol did forge anglachel
[samsbestfriend] i wonder if the fall of gondloin has more power untold
[Puma] well…one thing we dont see in the sil….is all 12 hosues of gondolin
[Puma] houses
[miriel] now I lost the tread… *reads up*
[Puma] jsut golden flower and fountain
[Darkover] I’m back
[mib_gcihc6] house of mole for maeglin
[Darkover] More like house of rat, Mib, IMO
[ChristineGolden] If you look at the Silmarillion ‘love stories,’ you can see them all building to the voyage of Earendil.
[mib_gcihc6] lol
[mibmib] at least you had it in the first place miriel haha
[Puma] but there were survivors from all 12 houses but for the hammer of wrath who all perished
[miriel] indeed chris
[Puma] and there was a legolas in gondolin
[brennil] about Tuor leading elves, it did say he was very well respected among them
[miriel] in fact, all love stories are somehow connected to the silmarils, as well
[brennil] and a glorfindel
[Darkover] Yes, brennil, but being well respected is one thing, the leader of everyone is another
[samsbestfriend] miriel: even romeo and juliet?
[Xanaseb] all of them miri?
[Puma] apparently to the elves of gondolin.the husband of the heir….was also an heir
[Xanaseb] I suppose they are
[Darkover] Of course, a lot of those who might otherwise have been leaders were probably dead, such as poor, valiant Glorfindel
[Xanaseb] pretty interesting that
[miriel] LoL samsbestfriend
[brennil] in an emergency, I’m sure they would accept any leader. especially married to Idril
[Mimi_Sardinia] Beren and Luthien could be seen as a “Romeo and Juliet”
[Darkover] And of course, Idril the heir certainly gave him her support
[Puma] some leaders of other houses survived the fall of gondolin
[Mimi_Sardinia] especially from an elven angle, considering Luthien ended up dying permanently
[Darkover] I didn’t say no one did, Puma, just that a lot most likely were dead
[brennil] except, didn
[brennil] nt die by suicide because they were enflamed teenagers
[Mimi_Sardinia] True brennil, their relationship was far more drawn out and *sensible*
[Demosthenes] All of three great unions have a happy ending. I’d enver thought of that. Odd, when you consider how much of the first age is misery and painful death.
[samsbestfriend] crazy teenagers…
[Demosthenes] They’re little beacons amidst a great wotsit of darkness.
[brennil] why was Beren and Luthien considered such a happy story since they both die?
[Puma] the 3 unions had great purpose
[ChristineGolden] I’d say a bittersweet ending, Demosthenes, because in each romance, one party is sundered from their kin.
[ChristineGolden] Agree, Puma.
[miriel] they get together in the end, though
[miriel] and get a kid
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I suspect a lot of happy things transpired in the First Age that we didn’t hear about. Doesn’t Tolkien in “The Hobbit” say something about how when times are good and people are happy, there isn’t much to write about, but it is otherwise when bad things happen?
[Demosthenes] Nothing comes without cost? That’s part of living. Even for an elf, i guess.
[miriel] the kid being the main point
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes , brennil – because all three ended up with the same fate
[Xanaseb] and they live for a looong time
[Xanaseb] right?
[miriel] ultimately, for all living beings, getting offspring is the most important
[Xanaseb] in secret mostly
[ChristineGolden] But the “ever” doesn’t seem to last very long in their “happy ever afters,” miriel.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: truth. they are the up-points amidst a lot of sorrow though.
[Darkover] And the end of this chapter serves to remind us that the Oath of the Silmarils has been awakened again
[Darkover] No denying that, Demosthenes
[Puma] its one of jrrs main themes….modes of death or not
[Puma] the fate of each kindred
[samsbestfriend] thats a good point
[ChristineGolden] His Catholicism rearing its head again, Puma.
[Puma] also…..to jrr a good human….knew the time to die….and did it of free will
[Puma] nnot counting war of course
[Mimi_Sardinia] accepting death with dignity
[Puma] aragorn reinstituted that after a long hiatus
[Mimi_Sardinia] even war could be seen that way – dying for what you believe in
[Darkover] True, mimi
[Puma] agreed mimi
[miriel] true mimi
[miriel] and as an aswer to the short happily ever after: they are unlikely to happen, and just plain boring to write, though? jk jk
[ChristineGolden] And read.
[Demosthenes] Ah but where will they live?
[Demosthenes] Was that sam? i forget.
[miriel] lol dems
[miriel] yes, it was
[Puma] when you look at the whole saga.jrr always has a reciprocal….idril and tuor are the recipricol to beren and luthien
[ChristineGolden] But I think it’s more than just that… if you look at the book, the pace begins to really pick up with this tale to the fall of Morgoth. I think any “happy ever afters” would have disrupted that.
[Puma] well yes.fall of gondolin was in fa 509 i believe
[Demosthenes] puma: yeah i hadn’t considere dthat until Mimi_Sardinia mentioned that tuor balances luthien
[Darkover] I wonder sometimes if it is Men who get the “happily ever after” in the end, while the Elves, who may seem to have the better deal, just get “contented ever after.”
[Puma] war of wrath began in 547 i think
[miriel] indeed: the unlikely to happen was pointing to that
[Tim_Bombadil] The “Gift of Men” Darkover…
[Puma] thats the recipricol darkover the fates of the 2 kindreds
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – that what I always felt JRR was trying to put across.
[Elentari] what are we talking about?
[Darkover] Right, Tim, because after all, no one really knows what happens after that.
[Darkover] Tuor and Idril, and what led from that, Elentari
[Demosthenes] You can’t think that’s not deliberate.
[Tim_Bombadil] Not all of the Valar came to the Earth..
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Puma] no
[Xanaseb] I think they did
[miriel] I agree Darkover
[Puma] not all of the ainu came to earth
[Darkover] Thank you, Miriel
[Xanaseb] not all of the ainur though
[Mimi_Sardinia] No Tim_Bombadil , not all the *Ainur* came into the World
[Xanaseb] yup, indeed Puma.
[Mimi_Sardinia] *Valar* is the name of the upper level Ainur who did
[Puma] but the valar were bound then to arda.till the end
[Elentari] oh right Darkover thanks
[samsbestfriend] isnt is weird disucssing the higher mysterieds of this world when we dont even understand them of our own?
[Puma] jrr was a window to that sbf
[brennil] maybe they help us understand them in our own world
[Mimi_Sardinia] maybe because the higher mysteries of fiction are easier to understand than RL ones.
[Demosthenes] Maybe both.
[Mimi_Sardinia] And what brennil said.
[brennil] and they’re more fun
[Darkover] Not really, samsbestfriend. As Brennil just observed, they can help us understand the mysteries of our own.
[ChristineGolden] It’s a book.
[Darkover] But a darned good book, Chris
[brennil] so what?
[Puma] a good book
[samsbestfriend] can they? really?
[brennil] really. If I weren’t being lazy I
[brennil] would quote C.S. Lewis here
[Puma] they dont help us solve the mystery….but perhaps to view it
[ChristineGolden] Of course, Puma. I meant that we’re not discussing an alternative universe, but a piece of lit (in response to samsbestfriend).
[Mimi_Sardinia] well if you acknowledge the fact that a lot of the moral codes in the Silm are heavily based on JRR’s -very christian- beliefs then the moral codes and higher mysteries of the Silm show us what JRR thought about life.
[Puma] jrr wanted us to discuss the issue….was his purpose…so we are doing good
[Darkover] Besides, enjoying Tolkien, or any other fiction, is like when people complain that it is “just a story.” As long as we have a good story to appreciate, isn’t that enough? Why does it have to be “more?”
[Puma] all good stories…live because they are applicable
[Demosthenes] Both answers are legitimate. You can have “more” and you can have “just the story”. Either is legtimate.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes. But I don’t believe the story is insignificant
[Puma] in 100 yrs people will still be discussing jrr
[samsbestfriend] yeah, but tokien was just a man
[brennil] a genius of a man
[Mimi_Sardinia] He was just a man who was a good writer.
[Darkover] Again with the “just,” sam. What is your point?
[Puma] but he left some great thoughts for us to discuss
[ChristineGolden] Hmmm, I’d say that a good book involves more than just a great plot, Darkover. Are we talking about the same thing?
[samsbestfriend] its not like he has any more insight into life and death than any one else
[brennil] or did he?
[Puma] he did not
[Puma] but he put the issue there for us to have discourse about
[Mimi_Sardinia] samsbestfriend maybe he didn’t, but what he did have he was good at conveying in his writing.
[Demosthenes] And different is always food for thought.
[samsbestfriend] Puma: i will agree wiht taht much
[miriel] I agree with samsbestfriend, tolkien was great, but not allknowing
[lunarising] I think he did – I’d think anyone who’s seen war and death would have a better insight on those issues
[Darkover] Actually, Chris, I think there is a lot more to Tolkien’s writings than plot or story, but my point is, when a piece of fiction has a good plot/story, that is all it is required to have. If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage.
[Demosthenes] If it has more, then so much the better, but just telling a good story is no small thing, and nothing to disparage. [-- yeah, this.
[Mimi_Sardinia] Darkover – I like what you say.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Mimi
[Puma] jrrs saga lives…thru us.who have discourse
[Xanaseb] true about him not having more insight than others, but *having* insight, and *putting* it to paper in such a way are different things IMO
[ChristineGolden] Ahh, okay, Darkover. I would say that a good plot/story is created by the other elements in the book.
[Xanaseb] conveying something
[Darkover] Miriel, no one said Tolkien was all-knowing, but he knew a darn sight more than most people, IMO
[Xanaseb] is important, and tough thing in fiction really
[Puma] and some would say much of jrrs saga is quite plotless
[Darkover] And he could write a lot better than most, too
[Demosthenes] Do we have any final points about our topic btw? Not that this isn’t cool, but we’ve drifted.
[Darkover] Some criticize anything they can’t do themselves, Puma
[ChristineGolden] I have a question! (don’t I always?)
[Puma] ask away
[Mimi_Sardinia] Puma I don’t think it was plotless so much as it had so many plots that sometimes you lose track of them all.
[Puma] some parts were plotless
[Darkover] what’s your question, Chris?
[Demosthenes] ask away ChristineGolden!
[ChristineGolden] Well, we’re doing the “three great romances,” right? What I wonder is why isn’t Earendil/Elwing included in there?
[Mimi_Sardinia] Demosthenes In the end we really don’t know if Tuor was granted immortality. It is only said by those who remain in Middle-earth.
[Puma] because they were both peredhil
[miriel] because three sounds better than four jk jk
[Puma] so not eladar and edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] But the idea that he was makes a good story.
[Darkover] Maybe because while they did have to make an important choice in the end, it was not a choice directly connected to their romance.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil was half-elven/half-man, plus they had to make the same choice as the others.
[Puma] elwing was 1/2 elven
[Puma] as was earendil
[Mimi_Sardinia] Plus I still think the idea of Tuor’s fate being a balance of Luthien’s makes it seem rounded.
[Darkover] They were both kind of quick to abandon their kids, IMO. Just a pet peeve of mine.
[Demosthenes] Are you asking if we could chat about Earendil and Elwing? Ansnwer: sure. As for why it’s not great … that is an interesting one as the pair arguably accomplish as much or more than idril and tuor.
[Puma] but mithrellas/imrazor is not considered eldar/edain
[Mimi_Sardinia] I’d like that chat.
[ChristineGolden] mine, too, Darkover. “here’s my kid, gotta go~ ~ ~”
[Demosthenes] “great”
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris
[Xanaseb] lolol.
[ChristineGolden] No, although we could, I just wondered why they weren’t included in what’s commonly called ‘the three great romances.”
[Darkover] I think we have probably exhausted the Idril-Tuor discussion
[Puma] agreed darkover
[Demosthenes] Okay, we may do Earlendil and Elwing after Aragorn and Arwen then.
[Puma] the 3 great romances were eldar/edain.otheer grat romances were not
[Darkover] This discussion has been good, as always
[ChristineGolden] Thanks, Puma, I try.
[brennil] these non-LotR discussions don’t attract as many people
[Puma] ty Demz.great job
[Puma] and ty all here for a great discussion
[Demosthenes] Back to Towers next week though.
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: two towers. treebeard.’
Session Close: Sun Apr 14 09:39:32 2013

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

The enigma of Idril and Tuor

Set against Beren and Luthien, Idril and Tuor offer an interesting contrast. They don’t make the same vein of heroic strike against Morgoth. Tuor — due to the intransigence of Turgon — is in fact unable to save Gondolin from its doom.

Yet their renown must be more than “merely” their famous offspring? Is it that Ulmo chooses Tuor as his personal messenger? Is it Idril’s foresight in digging the secret escape? Is it their care of Gondolin’s ragtag of survivors on the long journey to the mouths of the Sirion?

And what of their ultimate fate? Tolkien himself wrote in Letter #153:

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and ‘it is supposed’ (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited ‘immortality’: an exception either way.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.

What are we to make of this exception — the reverse of Luthien’s divestment of her immortality? Perhaps it is, after all, just a story?

Join us in the Hall of Fire on Saturday April 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time) as we discuss the enigma of Idril and Tuor!

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Next weekend, we’ll be discussing the second of the three great unions of elves and humans: Idril and Tuor.

Session Start: Sun Apr 07 07:17:43 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire

[Demosthenes] okay. let’s begin? others can catch up.
[Puma] well….to start with.in general i consider this to be pippins chapter….but also a good look at orc culture
[Demosthenes] I’ve always thought that as much as the chapter is about Merry and Pippin, it’s the orcs who are kinda the stars here?
[Demosthenes] puma: i guess those two points are related
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] I wonder why the orcs really come through
[Susanita] hey pete
[Demosthenes] . ‘Lie quiet, or I’ll tickle you with this,’ he hissed. ‘Don’t draw attention to yourself, or I may forget my orders. Curse the Isengarders! Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai’:
[Puma] the 3 groups of orcs came for various reasons
[lini_b] pippin shows himself to be a lot more than just a frivolous kid on a lark
[Pete_away] Hoy, Susanita, how are you?
[Susanita] easy for you to say
[Demosthenes] There’s a real … life to them?
[Jenniearcheo] How much orc speech do we get? Is this it in the book?
[Demosthenes] not a lot jennie
[miriel] love the use of untranslated black speech
[Puma] this was jrr’s 1st real attemp to show orc culture
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from what’s on the ring, of course
[Demosthenes] there’s also “snaga” meaning slave
[Demosthenes] that’s later in ROTK
[Jenniearcheo] The fact that the apparent tribes couldn’t speak each other’s language was interesting
[Erestel] Gandalf reveals that “Ghash” is “fire” in the Black Speech, but that’s all I know.
[miriel] it is used in several places, dems
[Puma] no.snaga is in this chapter also
[miriel] snaga
[Darkover] Greetings, all! Sorry to be late.
[Demosthenes] oh, it is?
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover
[Demosthenes] skai is, i think, a name.
[miriel] I know, because I listed it as a name by mistake
[Darkover] Hiya, Jennie!
[miriel] Darkover
[Demosthenes] this is the final translation of that phrase: “Uglúk to torture (chamber) with stinking Saruman-filth.
[Demosthenes] Dung-heap. Skai!”.
[miriel] puma
[miriel] Skai! might be a curse
[Demosthenes] (from parma eldalamberon 17)
[Puma] and jrr said he cleaned up the translation
[Darkover] “Snaga” isn’t exactly a name, as I recall, I think it meant “slave,” and was a form of address from a more powerful orc to a weaker.
[Puma] correct
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think i read that via AFT/RABT too
[miriel] indeed, I lost two “named” characteres when I discovered it
[Demosthenes] probably in their FAQ
[Puma] also.in lotr jrr gives many orcs names….and they interact….he had never done that be4
[Jenniearcheo] Orcs have an FAQ?
[Elemmire]
[Erestel] “I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ‘ghash’: that is ‘fire’.” Spoken by Gandalf after he left the Chamber of Mazarbul before the Balrog arrived.
[Elemmire] there isn’t really that much Black Speech in lotr
[Elemmire] translated
[Darkover] Saruman also apparently got his nickname “Sharkey,” from the Orcish “sharku,” “old man.”
[Demosthenes] jennie is right. orcs are really tribal, and this shows through in the language. I guess Tolkien would have thought that a very natural way that such tribalness would have exhibited itself.
[Demosthenes] slang … dialest variations
[Demosthenes] dialect*
[Demosthenes] and having to converse through common
[Puma] yes.they needed westron to talk tribe to tribe
[Demosthenes] to understand each other
[Demosthenes] a kind of lingua franca
[Elemmire] hmm, id forgotten that. its an interesting point
[Susanita] that was interesting to me
[Darkover] Well, also, Sam had to be able to understand them–in a later chapter–and he was able to do so because the orcs were speaking a form of the Common Tongue
[Darkover] because so many different tribes were present
[Puma] well……sam had the ring then
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes! it makes it easier for both tolkien and us too. at a mechanical level.
[Puma] so different case
[Darkover] Right, the reader needed to understand them, too!
[miriel] tolkien never clearly states it, though, that it is just the ring, and not common
[Puma] jrr at times did not care if we understood
[Demosthenes] Do you guys agree that Tolkien’s uruks — as we see them here — are very lively and vivid?
[Jenniearcheo] The ring is why Bilbo can understand the spiders, yes?
[Darkover] I certainly agree, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] They’re certainly tough. Tougher than the smaller orcs they see as “maggots”
[Darkover] In this chapter, for the first time IMO, they seem like people–ugly, mean, vicious, debased people, but still people
[Puma] only the isengard uruks…although grishnakh was likely a mordor uruk
[miriel] I guess so, Jenniearcheo. But then, what about Shelob?
[Jenniearcheo] they do value the Moria orcs’ being able to see in the dark, though
[Susanita] and the bit about running in daylight
[Jenniearcheo] She wasn’t chatty
[Demosthenes] Why? Is it something in the prose? is it because the whole chapter is a power-play between the orc factions? is it something else?
[miriel] lol jennie
[Susanita] it sinks in how much Saruman means to be a usurper
[Puma] it is that….and we see pippin is clever….and smart…b4 that he had not been much use
[Darkover] Maybe it is because they *do* seem to be part of tribes, to have some sense–at least, among the Uruks–of duty, and they show a lot of emotion
[miriel] I think he does a great work of shoving how split and divided and unloyal the “dark side” is
[Darkover] all that seems to make them more like people, rather than cardboard villains
[Darkover] That too, Miriel, you’re quite right
[Demosthenes] miriel: it is very different to the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Underscored, miriel, by the two in Mordor who were going to “go someplace quiet and set up” something, but then fell to fighting
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes. These Orcs may seem like people, but that doesn’t mean they are decent or nice people.
[Demosthenes] it reminds me of a line from one of Mel Brooks’ movies “all for one, and each man for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] Not very nice, at all, precious
[Puma] orc culture is a debased one
[Darkover] lol, Demosthenes, very true
[Demosthenes] (that’s pretty much orcs to a T)
[Elemmire] yep
[Darkover] Quite so, Puma–and indeed, they only exist because long ago, they were debased Elves–and maybe Men
[Demosthenes] puma: on the other hand, it also makes me think of Gandalf’s line: “for myself, i pity even his [Sauron's] slaves”
[Demosthenes] and i think Gandalf meant orcs as well there
[Puma] but aragorn was wrong on 1 guess….he did not think orcs would be told of ring….but it seems ugluk and grishnakh knew of it
[Darkover] I can kind of understand Gandalf’s attitude, Demosthenes. Orcs never had much choice to be other than what they were.
[Elemmire] yep. you do kinda feel sorry for the orcs being bulllied
[Demosthenes] Because I think here we see simultaneously that the orcs have something .. .and yet nothing at the same time.
[Asmodean] they did not know of the ring i think
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be defeated.
[Susanita] they knew of SOMETHING
[Asmodean] yeah
[Susanita] not necessarily the Ring
[Darkover] Interesting observation, Demosthenes
[Elemmire] yep
[Puma] the war is won with pity….gandalf is the embodiment of that
[Darkover] I don’t feel too sorry for the bullied orcs, Elemmire, because they would unhesitatingly bully others if they could.
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin tests Grishnakh and it does seem he recognizes “Gollum” and “precious”
[Demosthenes] They have energy … they have a great lust for life … you see it in how they interact .. yet they are unable to do anything positive with it.
[Demosthenes] maybe
[miriel] indeed, so he must have had info
[Darkover] The war is won with courage, determination, and a certain amount of fighting and killing, too, Puma. Let’s not forget *that.*
[Elemmire] fair enough. but we dont like being bullied
[Puma] but pity was the key
[Jessy] I heard somewhere, though haven’t read the original, that in one of his letters, Tolkien expressed an interest in making the orcs less doomed to evil
[Elemmire] it isn’t really the orcs fault
[Puma] well…..he wrote many versions of orc origins
[Jenniearcheo] It seems that the orcs have little in the way of culture. In social rules, beyond what the boss orders
[Darkover] That sounds like Tolkien, Jessy, because as a devout Catholic, he would have had problems believing anyone was bad from the very beginning
[Darkover] That sounds about right, jennie
[Puma] and they were an example of morgoths power….jrr said maybe the worst of morgoths perversions
[Erestel] That belief is specifically stated by Elrond as well, Darkover. Something along the lines of “Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.”
[Demosthenes] jennie: i think i’d agree with that. they make food and drink of a sort. they make crude weapons. do they make songs? do they write? what is orc downtime?
[Darkover] Right, Erestel
[Elemmire] yep jennie. except when there are too msny bosses
[Puma] i doubt that they write
[Puma] but they do sing
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the orcs write, or make any songs worth listening to
[Darkover] People that debased don’t usually have a lot of creativity
[Elemmire] the orcs are less complex than the goblins. we know that they are good at making things
[Erestel] Down, down, to Goblin Town! You go, my lad!
[Demosthenes] maybe they make dubstep
[miriel] they could write curses and stuff
[Darkover] unless it comes to different methods of killing and torture
[miriel] but books, unlikely
[Puma] orcs=goblins….they are the same thing
[Jenniearcheo] Well, the goblins in The Hobbit can, on occasion, be persuaded to sing
[Susanita] orc singing like vogon poetry?
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] But it’s all “Crack snap the black crack” sort of thing
[Darkover] Not quite, I think, Puma. I could be wrong, but
[Jessy] Susanita: love it!
[Jenniearcheo] Singing about how nice it’ll be to torture their victims
[Puma] quite Darkover
[miriel] LoL Susanita
[Elemmire] lots of people do that jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: oh true. that had a kind of charm … but i maintain that the writer of the hobbit is an unreliable narrator prone to exaggeration.
[Darkover] I always got the impression goblins were weaker, more inclined to fear daylight, less hardy and not as good at fighting, as orcs.
[Puma] goblin is the hobbit word for orc
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Darkover] Maybe goblins are descended from Men, and orcs from Elves. Just a thought
[Puma] noooooooo
[Elemmire] well, the goblins in the hobbit are different
[Demosthenes] and the account of the hobbit is not entirely to be trusted as a result
[Puma] no they are not
[Elemmire] cos they are skilled
[Elemmire] and can make stuff
[Jenniearcheo] I think goblins are basically orcs, but the ones from “the north” were from caverns and better at seeing in the dark.
[Erestel] Goblins and orcs are the same. Azog is called a goblin in The Hobbit and a great orc in The Lord of the Rings. Orcs come in many shapes and sizes, though.
[Puma] but i am just going by what jrr himself said….you dont have to believe jrr if you dont want to
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Elemmire] a kind of orc then
[Jenniearcheo] He contradicts himself from time to time. Humans are allowed this luxury
[Elfriend] I always thought that Goblins were a weaker, perhaps younger form of Orc.
[Elemmire] ?
[lini_b] me too Elfriend
[miriel] weaker, yes, but younger? I do not know
[Susanita] oh hey Elfriend
[Puma] the only truely superior orcs in jrr were baldogs
[Elfriend] Hello
[Demosthenes] I also wonder at the great endurance of the orcs. The Three Hunters as we saw travelled 130 miles in four days. That’s an effort worthy of a roman legionary. These orcs go farther — much farther in the same time.
[Elemmire] baldogs?
[Jessy] Jenniearcheo: in Tolkien, aren’t contradictions just another word for re-write?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did a deal of ret-conning
[Darkover] If you mean “balrogs,” Puma, they weren’t orcs at all, but some kind of demon
[Erestel] I dunno about baldogs. Balrogs were corrupt Maia (lesser gods), not orcs.
[Elemmire] werent balrogs maia?
[Puma] baldogs….minor maia in orc form
[Elfriend] Food chain Goblins-Orcs-Uruk Hai
[Puma] balrogs are not baldogs
[Jenniearcheo] I wouldn’t get a bald dog. Unless I hated pet hair
[Darkover] Well, as detailed as Tolkien’s writings were, it seems improbable he wouldn’t make the occasional error
[Elemmire] what are baldongs
[Elemmire] baldogs
[Susanita] chihuahuas are bald
[Elemmire] even
[Elemmire] lol susa
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, but they just yap
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway.
[Susanita] they want Taco Bell
[Jenniearcheo] So . . . Goblins
[Puma] and orcs were all orcs….they varied in size and strenght
[Puma] uruk-hai is translated orc people
[Jenniearcheo] So the Uruks overtake the Mordor orcs on the run
[Elemmire] theyre stronger
[Elemmire] and can run in daylight
[Darkover] and don’t fear daylight
[Jenniearcheo] What was I reading? Some of the Mordor orcs run off and then come back?
[Puma] the mordor orc did not do well in the sun.as with many orcs
[Susanita] and there were Orcs from Moria too?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[Demosthenes] Three groups of orcs
[Susanita] Orcapalooza
[Demosthenes] three factions
[Puma] i meant the moria orcs
[Jenniearcheo] It sounded like the Moria orcs didn’t like the idea of running in the daylight, but Ugluk wasn’t taking a vote
[Elemmire] nope
[Demosthenes] they wilt
[Puma] the uruks did not like the sun either….but they could tolerate it
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin really comes into his own in this chapter. For the first time.
[Demosthenes] a bit like sunflowers
[Susanita] hi Baumbart
[Baumbart] Hi everybody
[Darkover] Hello, Baumbart
[Elemmire] hmm. this is where i start to like Pippin
[Jenniearcheo] hello Baumbart
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah … which is interesting considering he has his own self-doubt at the start of the chapter
[Demosthenes] let me find the quote
[Darkover] Pippin does seem to become a real member of the Fellowship in this chapter
[Demosthenes] He could not answer the questions. He felt cold and sick. ‘I wish Gandalf had never persuaded Elrond to let us come,’ he thought. ‘What good have I been? Just a nuisance: a passenger, a piece of luggage. And now I have been stolen and I am just a piece of luggage for the Orcs.
[Demosthenes] Bold hard halfling, or piece of luggage?
[Puma] other than pippins affability we have not seen his talents b4
[Elemmire] yeah. but he’s more useful that merry
[miriel] maybe that very insight is what makes him likeable
[Demosthenes] then this:
[Darkover] I think Pippin himself didn’t know he had talents, until this quest
[Demosthenes] I hope Strider or someone will come and claim us! But ought I to hope for it? Won’t that throw out all the plans? I wish I could get free!’
[Elemmire] merry is probably the least develpoed hobbit
[miriel] before it, he is just annoying
[Demosthenes]  But ought I to hope for it?
[Darkover] That is a very mature thought on Pippin’s part
[Elemmire] he appreciates how important the ring quest is
[miriel] indeed, very self-sacrificing there
[Puma] merry was out cold….he had been injured fighting…pippin had not fought orcs at amon hen
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. He also takes the initiative a couple of times
[Jenniearcheo] With the pin, the hand binding, the fleeing
[lini_b] it’s no longer just a silly adventure – he starts to grow up
[Jenniearcheo] And, of course, the lembas
[Elemmire] yep
[Demosthenes] jennie: is that why he takes the initiative do you think?
[Jenniearcheo] I think for the first time he had no leader
[Demosthenes] this realisation about the importance of the quest?
[Jenniearcheo] And even Merry was out cold. He was forced to think on his feet, on his own, perhaps for the first time ever
[Jessy] When Pippin runs out to drop his leaf broach, it was brave, but do you think it useful?
[Elemmire] he realises that he probably has to get out of this himself
[Jenniearcheo] He was a rich kid, a bit spoilt. Probably with servants his whole life
[Pete_away] Pippin? This was the first time that he wasn’t subservient to everyone else
[Darkover] It turned out that it was, Jessy, and it was something to do, so he did it
[Puma] at teh beginning of the chapter….we get out last live glimpse of boromir….in his finest moment….and the orcs say…they were told to kill all but halflings….but due to boromir….they fled b4 other help arrived…not giving orcs chance to search out more
[Darkover] I think “subservient” is a bit harsh, Pete. Maybe as the youngest, Pip was just used to letting others lead the way.
[Darkover] And now Pippin had to rely on himself, so he showed some initiative
[Jessy] But it only shows that the hobbits were still alive. Aragorn would have followed them either way.
[Puma] so we saw for the last time….how important boromir was
[Demosthenes] Or as Aragorn speculated, do they think they have their prey?
[Demosthenes] oh .. it’s hobbits. let’s went.
* Pete_away is now known as Pete-DOH
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin could tell that their footprints were being trampled by . . . iron? shoes
[Puma] yes.iron shoes
[Darkover] That probably had a lot to do with it, Demosthenes. Apparently no one told them how *many* halflings there were.
[Jenniearcheo] ty
[Puma] oh.i think they knew
[Demosthenes] ‘Orders.’ said a third voice in a deep growl. ‘Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That’s my orders.’
[Puma] there were orc spies all along the anduin
[miriel] the orcs must be extremely well trained if they can run with iron shoes
[Jenniearcheo] These were the only hobbits they found
[Darkover] If they knew, puma, why wasn’t anyone saying; “We only have two, better find where the other two went”
[Puma] the orcs knew how many were in the fellowship
[miriel] very simple orders, do you think it is due to lack of language-knowledge, or lack of IQ?
[lini_b] they’re strong not bright
[Puma] because they had paid such a great price in death from boromir
[Asmodean] they couldn’t have known
[Puma] boromir killed more than 20
[Darkover] Again, did they? And even if they knew how many people were in the fellowship, that doesn’t mean the orcs knew how many were hobbits.
* Asmodean is now known as lasak
[Demosthenes] They have street-smarts at least
[Elemmire] Piipin is so worried that the men of Rohan won’t know they are hobbits. So, how do the orcs/uruk-hai know?
[Puma] so after they paid the death price.they assumed!!!!!!
[Puma] and we all know what happens when you assume
[Pete-DOH] The must have hear from Saruman, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] If they knew there were two missing hobbits, wouldn’t they have sent a squad to search for them?
[Darkover] The orcs knew halflings when they saw them, and indeed had specific orders about them.
* lorienslady is now known as lori_dinner
[Elfriend] Being an Orc, I’d imagine one would learn quickly
[Elemmire] hmm
[Demosthenes] I didn’t think the Rohirrim even saw the halflings.
[Puma] its a complex point
[Darkover] The Rohirrim were killing right and left, and didn’t know about the prisoners. It would have been easy for the hobbits to be killed by mistake, Elmmire
[Pete-DOH] No, Dems, it was dark, rght?
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire
[Puma] well.not so easy………the cloaks
[Demosthenes] dark, and they had those lorien cloaks to boot.
[lini_b] the rohirrim didnt believe the legends of halflings
[Jenniearcheo] The hobbits were in the woods by the time the rohirrim attacked
[Puma] m and p ran right up to the orcs b4 they were seen
[Pete-DOH] By a horse with great eyesight avoided pippin
[Jenniearcheo] or some sense
[Pete-DOH] Remember Jennie that Pippin almost got stomped on
[Demosthenes] Horses will try to avoid running over ppl iirc.
[Demosthenes] So that makes sense.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, but the rider didn’t see him
[Puma] this was something the movies never showed….how many times the cloaks worked for the fellowship
[Jenniearcheo] Horses, perhaps, have an innate sense
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the black gate
[Pete-DOH] Right, Puma, just once in the ee of ROTK
[Demosthenes] i like this:
[Puma] that 1 time
[Demosthenes] ‘Hullo, Pippin!’ he said. ‘So you’ve come on this little expedition, too? Where do we get bed and breakfast?’
[Pete-DOH] Merry was great
[Darkover] Pippin himself was thinking that he and Merry might be killed, before the attackers of the orcs knew they were there.
[Puma] shows even in the worst conditions….merry has a good attitude
[Jenniearcheo] Merry with a brown scar all his days
[Demosthenes] very droll; very dry humour.
[Pete-DOH] movie aside–Dom and Billy were casting genius
[Jessy] Demosthenes: That’s one of my favorite lines in the whole book!
[Susanita] they didn’t have their guide book to B&Bs in Middle Earth
[Puma] now.dom and billy look nothing like hobbits
[Jenniearcheo] They used peach juice and cola syrup for the orc draught. It made Dom gag
[Darkover] And Pippin wished he had paid better attention at Rivendell, but business had always seemed to be in more capable hands. Another sign that he is growing up, coming into his own.
[Pete-DOH] yummy
[Darkover] Wouldn’t it make *you* gag, Jennie?
[Jenniearcheo] True, Darkover
[Puma] but merry had studied the maps
[lini_b] but merry was paying attention
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Very likely
[Jenniearcheo] But Merry was inconveniently unconscious
[Puma] so point is.they are better together than separate….
[Elemmire] pippin really does start to grow up in this chapter
[Puma] only later when they have grown can they operate apart
[Jenniearcheo] Generally true
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gotta look out for himself now. no-one’s going to hold his hand for him.
[Jenniearcheo] It’s almost as if Pippin wakes up in this chapter. As though he’s been dozing until now
[Demosthenes] well, the orcs kinda do for a bit, but that’s not at all pleasant.
[PippinForTheWin] like he realizes now what hes gotten himself in to
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, well phrased
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: it’s not a hobbit walking party.
[Elfriend] Again I hear Elronds words “we will trust to a friendship rather than great wisdom.”
[Elemmire] hmm-merry and pip need their frienship
[Elemmire] friendship
[Demosthenes] Elfriend: that’s a good thought.
[Elemmire] even
[Darkover] Friendship is a big part of LotR
[Puma] yes
[Elemmire] it is
[PippinForTheWin] its what lotr is all about
[Demosthenes] notice that pippin feels reassured when he sees merry is with him.
[Demosthenes] in a “we’re all in this together” kind of way
[PippinForTheWin] if frodo and sam werent friends, what ould happen?
[Elemmire] they are better together
[Elemmire] both pairs of them
[Puma] sam was frodos servant
[Jenniearcheo] Better together, and definitely better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] better than orc drink?
[PippinForTheWin] when in the movie pippin leaves with gandalf to go to minas tirith you feel the pain
[Elemmire] anyone’s better with lembas in them
[Demosthenes] i wonder what the orc drink was
[Jenniearcheo] More whoelsome
[Jenniearcheo] Best not to know
[Demosthenes] cheap gin? fosters?
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[lini_b] lol Demosthenes
[Elemmire] something unpleasant
[Pete-DOH] dirty water, alcohol, and prune juice
[Demosthenes] some sort of moonshine i guess
[Puma] an energy drink….they sell them all over now
[Elemmire] lol
[Demosthenes] lol
[Darkover] but effective, whatever it was
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that Merry was going to try to drink from the River but Pippin was in charge and said, “Not here, the banks are too steep. Forward now!”
[Elfriend] All this time they have been selling the UK Orc beer.. how very clever of them.
[Pete-DOH] yes, Jennie, role reversal
[lini_b] i wouldn’t mind a bit – my house is a mess i need energy
[Jenniearcheo] At least for now
[Demosthenes] Seizing him roughly Uglúk pulled him into a sitting position, and tore the bandage off his head. Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box. Merry cried out and struggled wildly.
[Demosthenes] The Orcs clapped and hooted. ‘Can’t take his medicine,’ they jeered. ‘Doesn’t know what’s good for him. Ai! We shall have some fun later.’
[Elemmire] isn’t pip the youngest of all the hobbits?
[Puma] but then they will switch and merry will be in charge
[Demosthenes] same with the orc medicine.
[Darkover] He is, Elemmire
[Puma] yes.pip is youngest
[PippinForTheWin] yeah hes the youngest
[Darkover] Hardly more than a boy by hobbit standards
[PippinForTheWin] the most innocent
[Elemmire] so he really is doing well
[Erestel] Yup, the youngest of the four. He hadn’t come of age when he joined the group.
[Darkover] I would say so. He’s not quite the foolish hobbit he was portrayed as in the movies.
[Elemmire] nope
[Puma] but remember…….merry and pippin were form the 2 great power wielding shire families….as close to royalty as shire has
[Puma] so not ordinary hobbits
[Pete-DOH] Pippin has only one real bonehead move left, right? The palantir
[Jenniearcheo] Billy said he felt Pippin didn’t feel “part of the story” until the Palantir incident
[Demosthenes] I noted that even Pippin didn’t really know why he and merry had run off at Parth Galen.
[Elemmire] yep, i can see that
[Darkover] Doesn’t mean they would necessarily have risen to the occasion, Puma. Birth isn’t everything, even in M-E
[Puma] billie was wrong as usual
[Demosthenes] they just … did.
[Jenniearcheo] I noticed that, Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting
[Demosthenes] a bit like Boromir’s madness
[Jenniearcheo] I don’t think he was wrong, Puma
[Elemmire] no me neither puma
[Demosthenes] is there a link?
[Demosthenes] or maybe not?
[Jenniearcheo] Do you attribute that to . . . Illuvatar?
[Demosthenes] Of course: he and Merry had run off into the woods. What had come over them? Why had they dashed off like that, taking no notice of old Strider?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed to be off by themselves, because they needed to be captured to get the Ents moving
[Puma] they were better educated and more worldly than most hobits…they had a better chance
[Erestel] It was the will of the Force.
[PippinForTheWin] illuvatar? we’re entering silmarillion territory now
[Puma] of course there is free will
[Elemmire] or panic
[Jenniearcheo] If we’re supposing that there’s an unseen hand at work, it’s either Illuvatar or Sauron. I’d rather hope it were the former
[Demosthenes] panicatthedisc…errr..greensward
[Darkover] Erestel, I think JRR would wince at providence/God being referred to as “the Force”
[Pete-DOH] Iluvatar, or the Valar, maybe
[laughing_gull] I was gonna say, I think irrational reasons, but also for plot reasons
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr……but not in this instance
[Jenniearcheo] Same force that led Frodo to the chair
[Pete-DOH] Darkover, you don’t think the professor would like Star Wars?
[Elemmire] where are the valar active in lotr ouma?
[Elemmire] puma
[Elemmire] even
[Demosthenes] More seriously, Aragorn said that a force was slowing them and implied it was Saruman. Maybe a similar influence was working on the Fellowship at Parth Galen?
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s reaching.
[PippinForTheWin] not the valar, but the Maiar maybe?
[Puma] that is another convo.but many times
[Erestel] Yeah, he probably would. At least Iluvatar isn’t associated with medichlorians.
[Elemmire] lol
[Darkover] Actually, I don’t, Pete. I think Tolkien would find good and evil too muddled in Star Wars for his beliefs.
[Elemmire] midi
[Darkover] Just my opinion.
[Jenniearcheo] Aragorn assumed that things were “ill” because he didn’t realize their neccessity
[Pete-DOH] Areed, Darkover. Don’t think he would even consider atching it
[Puma] good and evil were very muddled in jrr
[Elemmire] really puma
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Puma?
[Puma] elves had done great evils
[Darkover] It doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
[PippinForTheWin] and great goods
[laughing_gull] I don’t think that makes good and evil muddles
[laughing_gull] *muddled
[Jenniearcheo] elficide
[PippinForTheWin] every race has had some instance of good and evil
[laughing_gull] Humans do good and evil too, in all the great stories
[Elemmire] that was silmarillion though.
[Darkover] Elves made big mistakes, Puma, as did other races, but that isn’t the same as good and evil being muddled.
[Puma] good and evil are not black and white in lotr….it is way deeper than that
[Elemmire] good and evil are always grey
[Darkover] And in LotR, Aragorn points out that good and evil are not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves.
[PippinForTheWin] sometimes its obvious, but the reasons why go very deep
[Pete-DOH] Very little signs of good in the orcs, PippinForTheWin, but there is a trace
[Jenniearcheo] Good and evil are cultural constructs, but . . ./anthropologist
[Elemmire] like? pete
[Puma] i am well aware of what aragorn said
[lini_b] like tryig to heal merrys wound Elemmire
[Darkover] Indeed, a lot of readers complain that Tolkien’s writings show right and wrong, good and evil, as being too black and white.
[Puma] maybe a better word would have been morality
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I’m not sure that was a charitable act
[Elemmire] wasnt that just practicality though pete
[Darkover] Well, don’t be offended. You didn’t act like it, Puma
[Demosthenes] Pete-DOH: is that act derived from utility?
[Jenniearcheo] They needed Merry running
[Pete-DOH] The two orcs in ordor who talked about going off together to set up their own operation. A tiny bit of camaraderie, Elemmire, but it didn’t last long.
[laughing_gull] I agree with Jennie
[PippinForTheWin] the instances themselves are black and white. but the real reasons, the real meanings behind some actions go really deep
[Puma] readers who say good and evil are black and white in jrr….have only seen the surface….and have not looked at the words
[Pete-DOH] Dems, yu talkong about the two orcs? Yes, to a large degree
[Erestel] The Silmarillion has many more grey characters. Turin, Maedhros, Maeglin, etc.
[Demosthenes] pete: yah. they do things to gain something … not through selflessness.
[Elemmire] feanor erestel
[Elemmire] v grey
[Puma] all members of the fellowship have grey areas….
[Puma] and if that were topic we could discuss it
[Demosthenes] Which kinda relates to my earlier point that the orcs have a great lust for life … and never do much that’s positive with it.
[Jenniearcheo] Again, not much of a culture
[Darkover] In this chapter, Grishnakh threatened to rat out his fellow orcs. Typical bad behavior.
[Puma] morgoth designed orcs that way
[Pete-DOH] True, Dems, that’s why I said a very little example–just of two orcs, actually talking about working together. That’s all I got.
[Darkover] Not much of a culture, Jennie, because orcs belong to a dog-eat-dog society
[PippinForTheWin] and i guess orcs are pretty loyal to sauron?
[Elemmire] v true Demosthenes
[Puma] not really
[Jenniearcheo] However, it’s possible that they simply felt that they’d prefer a nice boss-free life, and it would be mutually beneficial
[laughing_gull] I think they are enslaved to sauron?
[Darkover] out of fear, I imagine, PippinFTW
[Puma] orcs only have 1 master.morgoth
[PippinForTheWin] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] So we have a contrast: the orcs scarmbling over each other to get to the top of the pile … and merry and pippin working together to achieve more than their individual sum.
[Elemmire] teamwork!
[Elemmire] yay
[Darkover] Who at the time of LotR, is in the Void, puma. Some orcs reported to Saruman, some to Sauron
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting. Yes
[Demosthenes] together they are greater than the sum of their individual parts
[Jenniearcheo] And end up winning
[Elemmire] you get that a lot Demosthenes
[Puma] but none were totally loyal to either darkover
[Darkover] Right, demosthenes. Orcs, being bad, are incapable of cooperating with each other for selfless reasons.
[PippinForTheWin] once again shows how friendship prevails
[Jenniearcheo] The Rohirrim are better at teamwork, too
[Elemmire] most people are
[Jenniearcheo] the only time the orcs rally is at the end, with a wedge. But they get run down because there are now too few
[Darkover] I’m not sure orcs were ever *totally* loyal to anyone, Puma–and being punished if they weren’t had a lot to do with their loyalty
[Demosthenes] Orc teamwork occurs only vias a leader ruling through fear
[Elemmire] yup
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “subservient” rather than “loyal”
[Demosthenes] cf: ugluk removing heads
[Elfriend] I think there is an innocence to Hobbits, especially in the fellowship that helps them make it through nigh insurmountable hurdles.
[Demosthenes] and it seems a temporary alliance at best.
[Darkover] Although you must admit, Ugluk’s form of discipline is effective!
[Elemmire] yep darkover but it wont last
[Jenniearcheo] To a point
[Demosthenes] reminds me of the orc babysitter demotivator
[Darkover] Elfriend, I agree. IMO, Hobbits are the most cooperative of all the peoples of M-e
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] That was a great photo
[Pete-DOH] eliminate your enemies, so you wont have enemies
[Darkover] But then, I believe, Pete, the orcs would just fall on each other.
[Demosthenes] i have a different question that we probably ought to consider:
[Elemmire] ok
[Demosthenes] How much does Grishnakh know exactly?
[Pete-DOH] or high-tail it out of there as soon as they can, like they did when Sauron fell, darkover
[Elemmire] lots. nothing.
[Elfriend] Orc Cheiftains use lash and force to achieve goals, Hobbits use friendship.
[Darkover] Hmm, never thought about that before, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (about the fellowship and the in particular the Ring)
[lini_b] mote than ugluk imo
[PippinForTheWin] i think that hobbits are so cooperative because they havent really been exposed to much of middle earth besides the shire
[Elemmire] its hard to know
[Pete-DOH] we don’t know, Dems–the “gollum, gollum” incident is confusing
[PippinForTheWin] they have no enemies
[Jenniearcheo] wb ll
[Elemmire] he seems to get pippins hints about gollum and precious
[Elfriend] That’s an interesting point.
[Demosthenes] i mean, what merry and pippin do is inspired, but is Grishnakh just guessing?
[Pete-DOH] wb lorienslady. Did you have a green smoothie with dinner?
[Jenniearcheo] He does seem to be groping them to see if they have something
[Elfriend] Not being exposed to the world of the big folk, not exposed to corruption etc.
[Jenniearcheo] And the words “Gollum” and “precious” bring him up short
[Darkover] I think he probably had a lot of info, but was unsure about what it all meant. Grishnakh struck me as the type who listens at keyholes.
[Susanita] yes, Darkover
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[lini_b] yes Darkover
[Demosthenes] The thought came suddenly into Pippin’s mind, as if caught direct from the urgent thought of his enemy: ‘Grishnákh knows about the Ring! He’s looking for it, while Uglúk is busy: he probably wants it for himself.’
[Darkover] Thanks, Susanita and Elemmire, and lini_b
[Demosthenes] pippin thinks he knows about the ring
[Pete-DOH] The orcs were told to bring the hobbits back aive, without spoiling them. So Grishnakh knew they might have been holding *something* big
[Jenniearcheo] Made his fingers twitch and he said, “Oh, ho!”
[Darkover] Right, Pete and Demosthenes. He just probably didn’t know specifically what it was, i.e., a Ring
[lorienslady] no Pete not today lol
[PippinForTheWin] right
[Pete-DOH] awwww, too bad
[Jenniearcheo] But he’s a mordor orc, so he may have heard that Gollum had whatever it was.
[Demosthenes] If the Ring wasn’t common knowledge among even the Wise, then why would an orc know?
[Elemmire] maybe, the words gollum and precious only stop him because he doesn’t want the hobbits to realise what he is up to. hes lookking for something but doesn’t know what.
[Demosthenes] that being said, grishnakh is a mordor orc as you point out jennie
[Puma] he knew
[Jenniearcheo] He may not have known “ring”, but that there was “something” that Gollum had been tortured over
[Demosthenes] maybe he’s one of lugburz’s special spies.
[Pete-DOH] So tht “Gollum Gollum” incident was a red herring, or something that Tolkien put there without fleshing it out?
[lini_b] gollum had been hanging around mordor lots and they may have run across each other
[Jenniearcheo] I think he’s a leader amongst the mordor orc team
[Elemmire] yes lini_b
[Darkover] Is it possible Pippin’s lines about “gollum” and “my precious,” meant something to Grishnakh, because he was one of the orcs who tortured Gollum in Mordor?
[Demosthenes] lini: possible! maybe groshnakh came from the tower itself even?
[Elemmire] yes darkover
[Pete_R] hmmm, maybe Darkover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yeah i wonder
[Puma] grishnakh had reported to a nazgul at river….then ran with group to rejoin
[Demosthenes] “four fingers only has the black hand but they are enough”
[Puma] he knew about the ring
[Elemmire] this is interesting
[Jenniearcheo] True. He held the nazgul in more awe than the Uruks did
[Demosthenes] if so, Grishnakh would have seen Sauron.
[Demosthenes] met? cowered before?
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, he had been forced to report to one. He knew how fearsome they could be.
[Elemmire] or heard about him Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] What was the line? When he was repeating “Nazgul”
[Puma] and the nazgul knew a hobbit had the ring
[Pete_R] Not neccessaroly, Demz–word about Sauron’s apearance would be spread throughout th Mordor crew, I’d think
[Jenniearcheo] “Nazgul, Nazgul” said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savored painfully.
[Demosthenes] You’ll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan’t hurry the enquiry. Oh dear no!
[Demosthenes] and who’s the Questioner?
[Darkover] But that doesn’t mean the Nazgul would necessarily have told Grishnakh about the Ring, Puma. The bad guys of M-E aren’t big on explaining themselves or their decisions to the lower ranks.
[Darkover] Probably a Nazgul, Demosthenes.
[Elemmire] good question Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] i thought they called them Shriekers?
[Puma] anyway….i have to head out.fun convo people….and if you want to speak about the active valar in lotr….speak tome of it sometime…there are many examples
[lini_b] i figured Sauron, because of the capitol Q
[Jenniearcheo] To the Uruks, it’d be Saruman
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Puma] good convo people
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Puma, see you next time.
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[Elemmire] bye puma
[Pete_R] bye Puma
[lini_b] bye Puma
[Elemmire] yeah, maybe sauron?
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting to wonder what would have happened if they had managed to get Merry and Pippin to Isengard
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: if … and a definiter if … Grishnakh had been present at the torture of Gollum … then you’d think Grishnakh would mean Sauron.
[Darkover] For something as important as the Ring, the Questioner might have been Sauron himself, but I’m betting it was a Nazgul.
[Jenniearcheo] Would Saruman have turned them over to a Nazgul?
[Darkover] More painful than interesting for Merry and Pippin, Jennie
[Demosthenes] For i have always inferred that Sauron dealt with Gollum personally.
[lini_b] heck no
[Elemmire] hmm not sure
[Elemmire] i guess
[Susanita] shirrrrrrrrre
[Pete_R] Yes, Jennie–would Saruman have sent a buch of Uruk-hai after Frodo?
[Susanita] bagginssssssssss
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting for me sitting here on my nice king-size quilt
[Demosthenes] But .. it’s a string of logic i know
[Jenniearcheo] Seemingly he did
[Demosthenes] with a few ifs
[Elemmire] Demosthenes it makes sense
[lini_b] gollum hates the great eye
[Jenniearcheo] When the Uruks were sent, was it on Sauron’s behalf?
[Demosthenes] jennie: Saruman would have kept the hobbits
[Mino] Mae govannen! How amazing to be able to chat with other Tolkien and LoTR fans
[Darkover] You are probably right that Sauron was present at Gollum’s torture. Tolkien wrote that gollum feared the Dark Lord, but hated him even more
[Demosthenes] at least until he got all the information he could
[Jenniearcheo] Were the three bands of orcs working together because Sauron told them to?
[Darkover] Hello, Mino
[Elemmire] hi mino
[lini_b] he doesn’t like the nazgul but “Don’t take it to him”
[Pete_R] Didn’t Saruman have Uruks as well, or ifd the movie fogging my memory?
[Elemmire] the uruks were sarumans
[Jenniearcheo] Would there have been a terrific showdown between the Two Towers if they had managed to Take the Hobbits to Isengard, is myquestion
[Darkover] And if Gollum had been questioned by a Nazgul, say, wouldn’t he have hated the nazgul?
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yes, Ugluk is one of saruman’s uruks
[Elemmire] possibly jennie
[Darkover] He did, Pete_R. Remember the symbol of the White Hand?
[Susanita] Orcs with the filthy white mark
[Darkover] That was in both the books and the movies.
[Mino] Aye, the mark of Saruman
[Pete_R] k, thx, Demz and Elemmire Hi, Mino
[Demosthenes] he gives them man-flesh
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, they didn’t have the ring. If Frodo’d been one of those captured, and Saruman had got the ring, then we’d see what we’d see . . .
[Mino] I bred them down in the depths of Isengard
[Darkover] Then this would have been a much shorter and less happier book, Jennie
[Pete_R] I remembered the white hand, Darkover, but Jennie confused me.
[Jenniearcheo] I do that from time to time.
* Elemmire can feel my brain working overtime
[Pete_R] ysp
[Jenniearcheo] Feeds them on Fell Meats, no doubt
[Mino] I haven’t read the books in a few years, but I’ve seen the movies a million times so most of my memores are from them
[Elemmire] great diet
[Demosthenes] related to the how-much-does-grishnakh-know question:
[Demosthenes] ‘You seem to know a lot,’ said Uglúk. ‘More than is good for you, I guess. Perhaps those in Lugbúrz might wonder how, and why.
[Susanita] I’m reading the chapters as we go
[Jenniearcheo] Always insist on kosher Fell Meats
[Darkover] Orcs aren’t above a bit of cannibalism, so I wonder how much more fell the meats could get!
[Susanita] it’s a treat
[Mino] haha
[Jenniearcheo] Is Lugburz an orc city in Mordor?
[Elemmire] maybe the whole listening at doors poin that darkover? made Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] lugburz is the orc word for the dark tower
[Jenniearcheo] Ahhh
[Jenniearcheo] kay
[Elfriend] When I see the name ‘Lugburz’ I think of some part of Germany in the first or second world war.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. lol
[Darkover] lol, Elfriend
[lini_b] i figured because sauron knew what was in saurumans mind, that he sent his orcs to run into the isengatd group
[Demosthenes] Barad-dûr (Sindarin “Dark Tower”, sometimes given as The Barad-dûr (Lugbúrz in Black Speech))
[Elfriend] I never knew that
[Elfriend] IN all my time as a Tolkien fan
[Darkover] These discussions are educational, as well as interesting
[Demosthenes] i figured orcs would not use black speech .. but they do. kinda.
[Elemmire] why does my chat not like the accents?
[Jenniearcheo] I loved Pippin’s refusal to eat the strip of dried meat.lol
[Pete_R] same here, Elemmire
[lini_b] mine either Elemmire
[Demosthenes] mibbit does not do accents very well. :/
[Jenniearcheo] WE’re using the mibbit chat. It doesn’t like his pasted diacritical marks
[Elfriend] But I’m going to leave here wanting to read the books again – as always
[Elemmire] i get a little question mark. its confusing
[Pete_R] Pippin was all, “Ewww, I don’t *think* so…”
[Elemmire] this is a really good conversation!
[Darkover] He wasn’t that hungry yet, and I don’t blame him.
[Darkover] We try, Elemmire
[Jenniearcheo] The Nazgul are “the apple of the Great Eye.” lol Apple
[Elemmire] woah. fruit?
[Darkover] and his enforcers, it seems
[Elemmire] mordor doeant do fruit
[Demosthenes] the fruit would come from Nurnen, i guess.
[Elfriend] How about ‘the apple of the great evil eye’
[Demosthenes] or from further east
[Darkover] If mordor doesn’t do fruit, maybe that’s Sauron’s problem. He’s not regular.
[lini_b] but they do wine don’t they?
[Jenniearcheo] “He was famished but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him by an Orc, the flesh of he dared not guess what creature.”
[Susanita] oooh, Darkover, that’s the pits
[Elemmire] yuck
[Darkover] Sorry, I thought it was funny
[Elemmire] lol
[Jenniearcheo] oh dear
[Jenniearcheo] Now I have a vision of SAuron on the john
[Elemmire] we’re slowly going downhill
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for that
[Susanita] rofl
[Elemmire] scrap slowly
[Demosthenes] lots of orc names in this chapter. skai, grishnakh, lugdush, mahur, ugluk
[Pete_R] The REALLY Dark Throne
[Elfriend] Oh no
[Darkover] How else do you think Mordor tortures people, jennie?
[Susanita] Dem did write that post about Middle Earth … elimination
[Jenniearcheo] True, the One Loo to Rule Them All
[Elemmire] i like grishnakh as a name. it sounds good when you say it
[Pete_R] haha–true, Susanita
[Darkover] And it was funny, but true, Susanita
[Elfriend] Stop it x D
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the Uruks’ eyes are described as angular or slanted or something.
[Elemmire] like an elfs
[Jenniearcheo] Something . . . perhaps not 21st-century PC
[Darkover] Tolkien didn’t bother to be PC, and I thank the Valar for it
[Demosthenes] one guesses an orc might be attractive to another orc
[Elemmire] hmm
[Elfriend] Ugluck and Grishnakh sound much better than ‘Gorbag’ and ‘Shagrat’
[Elemmire] there are never any mentions of femal orcs
[Susanita] let’s not go there, Dem!
[Darkover] no wonder they live their lives in the dark. If they saw each other in daylight, there would be no little orcs
[Elemmire] lol
[Mino] lol
[Susanita] orclettes
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it was half a century ago . . .
[lini_b] are there lady orcs?
[Elfriend] Dems, that would take many pints of Fosters
[Pete_R] Female orcs hang out with female dwarves, Elemmire
[Susanita] orclings?
[Elemmire] ok pete
[lini_b] lol Pete_R
[Darkover] Actually, in a more serious vein, I have always suspected that we never see or hear about female orcs, because orcs reproduce by rape.
[Jenniearcheo] I suspect lady orcs are kept in the depths of caverns, in a constant state of pregnancy
[Jenniearcheo] pretty much
[Elfriend] I could have gone the rest of this HOF without that one Darkover.
[Elemmire] oh great. lovely
[Elfriend] But, okay.
[lini_b] and uruks are test tube babies
[Darkover] Sorry. I seem to be in offensive mode tonight
[Demosthenes] Tolkien also described the Druedain as having “unlovely faces”
[Demosthenes] So the lack of looks gets shared around
[Jenniearcheo] Except the uruk-hai are a perversion of orcs and men . . . which was prettied up for the film with his weird sac. But probably resulted from human captive women
[Elemmire] druedain?
[Pete_R] Darkover, I doubt that, becuse I’d think there would be more examples of halfbreeds, like in Bree
[Demosthenes] Aragorn is a bit weatherbeaten too
[Demosthenes] Elemmire: the pukel men. wildmen of the woods. woses.
[Elfriend] A tactical advantage.
[Darkover] Well, Pete, how do we know there aren’t? and where do you think such halfbreeds come from?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought the weirdo in Bree was an early uruk experiment
[miriel] Night all
[Jenniearcheo] night miriel
[Demosthenes] the swarthy man?
[Mithrandir] Miriel!
[Darkover] Goodnight, Miriel
[Elemmire] bye miriel
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Darkover] See you next time
[lini_b] bye miriel
[Elfriend] Dems- one would not seek Isildurs heir in unlovely faces, one might be looking for Orli or some such : )
[Demosthenes] i dunno. pippin (or merry?) says later that he looked orcish?
[Jenniearcheo] Bill Ferny’s funny looking friend
[Mithrandir] Ok, talk to you later Miriel!
[Mithrandir] Good night!
[Mithrandir] and im goin out too guys!
[Mithrandir] night all
[Demosthenes] night Mithrandir!
[Elemmire] bye
[Pete_R] Bt what I’m saying is that if all orc babies come from forced relations with humans, then the race of orcs would be watered down, and all the orc would be “half-breeds,” for lack of a better term.
[lini_b] bye Mithrandir
[Darkover] Aragorn was weatherbeaten from leading a hard life, but no one ever said he was ugly. On the contrary, when he was cleaned and dressed up at Lorien, Arwen thought he looked like an elf-lord
[Pete_R] bye miriel and mithrandir
[Elemmire] do we have to discuss orc breeding habits?
[Darkover] Bye, Mithrandir
[Jenniearcheo] Not all orc babies. Just the Uruk-hai, Pete
[Darkover] Sorry, Elemmire’s right, there are better things to discuss.
[lini_b] how could sauruman have created 10,000 uruks in such a short time?
[Elfriend] We are now in a Pg-13 chat
[Elemmire]
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Demosthenes] there’s some indication that orcs might be immortal too
[Jenniearcheo] But, he’d been doing so for a while
[Demosthenes] though that doesn’t come up until ROTK
[Darkover] Why do you say that, Demosthenes?
[Elemmire] really?
[Jenniearcheo] They are perverted elves, aren’t they?
[Susanita] Uruk-hai were Saruman’s clone army
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Pete_R] Okay, isstead of storks, do fell beasts bring orc babies/ But I digress…
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] No reason why perverted elves should suddenly acquire a life span is there?
[Demosthenes] http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcDeath
[Pete_R] interesting point, Dems
[Demosthenes] it’s circumstantial, like a lot of stuff in Tolkien.
[Elemmire] good point Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bolg and Azog were fairly long-lived. Good point
[Jenniearcheo] It surprises me that there would be a father-son relationship amongst orcs. That they paid attention to parentage
[Elemmire] hmm
[Pete_R] Jennie, I always got the impression the the elves were in the loop thousands of years ago, and the orc gene pool was probably horribly corrupted
[Jenniearcheo] Rather inbred, I’d think
[Pete_R] yah
[Jenniearcheo] Well, on that cheery note
[Elfriend] Susanita, interesting that.
[Jenniearcheo] I have a Thai green shrimp curry and jasmine rice waiting for me.
[Elemmire] bye jennie
[Jenniearcheo] with fresh Thai basil
[Darkover] Sounds great, Jennie! Enjoy, and we will see you next time
[Elemmire] yum
[Elemmire] see you
[lini_b] bye Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Are we done for this week?
[Jenniearcheo] Byee. Bye Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] seeya jennie!
[Darkover] We do seem to have covered all aspects of Orcishness
[Pete_R] bye, Jennie
[Demosthenes] i recommend the slimy tolkien FAQ btw
[Demosthenes] great resource
[Elfriend] Saruman had the stronger breed of Orcs, Sauron did did not seem to care to have the same investment.
[Susanita] orcs were cannon fodder
[Demosthenes] sauron uses massive numberws to win
[Darkover] Maybe the Dark Lord figured there were more where they came from.
[Demosthenes] yah arrow fodder
[Demosthenes] ok, next week we’ll be discussing idril and tuor