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	<title>Hobbit Movie News and Rumors &#124; TheOneRing.net™ &#187; Hall of Fire</title>
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		<title>Hall of Fire this weekend: Dol Guldur and the PJ plan</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/13/79168-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-dol-guldur-and-the-pj-plan/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/13/79168-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-dol-guldur-and-the-pj-plan/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Azog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beorn]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bolg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dol guldur]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sauron]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=79168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend the Hall of Fire will be taking a zig-zagging from books to film as we examine one of the great unknowns of The Desolation of Smaug &#8212; Dol Guldur and the PJ plan. Radagast: But what if it is a trap? Gandalf: It is undoubtedly a trap. Dol Guldur. What is the PJ [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This weekend <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">the Hall of Fire</a> will be taking a zig-zagging from books to film as we examine one of the great unknowns of The Desolation of Smaug &#8212; Dol Guldur and the PJ plan.</p>
<blockquote><p>Radagast: But what if it is a trap?<br />
Gandalf: It is undoubtedly a trap.</p></blockquote>
<p><b>Dol Guldur. What is the PJ plan?</b><span id="more-79168"></span></p>
<p>Dol Guldur is, of course, Sauron&#8217;s &#8220;older and lesser dwelling&#8221;, as Gandalf describes it to Boromir in The Fellowship of the Ring. In his guise as The Necromancer, it is the place where Sauron secretly rebuilds his power after being overthrown by the Last alliance. Until he finally dares to return to Mordor openly and in strength.</p>
<p>But how will this sequence play out in The Desolation of Smaug?</p>
<p>Will Dol Guldur be a relatively minor affair involving only Gandalf and his fellow wizards? Or will other key actors of The Hobbit be somehow drawn into a gigantic struggle in the south of Mirkwood that culminates in a giant battle for the fortress itself?</p>
<p>And what is the role of Sauron in the wider story? Is he responsible for the survival of Azog, is it Sauron driving Azog to destroy the Beornings and to pursue Thorin? </p>
<p>Join us this Saturday at 6pm EST (New York time) in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">#thehalloffire on the TORn chat server</a> for what&#8217;s sure to be a lively and spoiler-filled discussion!</p>
<p><b>Suggested reading:</b></p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/10/78684-analysing-the-role-of-the-necromancer-in-the-hobbit/">Analysing the role of the Necromancer in The Hobbit</a></p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire%3A+Dol+Guldur+and+the+PJ+plan&#038;iso=20130914T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/13/79168-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-dol-guldur-and-the-pj-plan/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hall of Fire this Saturday: the Passage of the Marshes</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/06/78567-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-the-passage-of-the-marshes/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/06/78567-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-the-passage-of-the-marshes/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Sep 2013 04:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=78567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Saturday (at 6pm ET (New York time)), Hall of Fire will return to our chapter-by-chapter read-through of The Lord of The rings, rejoining Frodo, Sam and Gollum as they enter The Dead Marshes. &#8220;To do the job as you put it – what hope is there that we ever shall? And if we do, [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /><br />
This Saturday (at 6pm ET (New York time)), Hall of Fire will return to our chapter-by-chapter read-through of The Lord of The rings, rejoining Frodo, Sam and Gollum as they enter The Dead Marshes.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;To do the job as you put it – what hope is there that we ever shall? And if we do, who knows what will come of that? If the One goes into the Fire, and we are at hand? I ask you, Sam, are we ever likely to need bread again? I think not. If we can nurse our limbs to bring us to Mount Doom, that is all we can do. More than I can, I begin to feel.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-78567"></span></p>
<p><b>The Two Towers: Book IV, Chapter II: The Passage of the Marshes</b></p>
<p>Gollum leads the way toward Mordor, but Sam &#8212; and Frodo, especially &#8212; have trouble keeping pace. The Ring is an increasing burden on for Frodo, weighing him down. Gollum leads them via a track he once used to escape orcs and Frodo has a lucky escape when he becomes ensorcelled by the dead faces that give the marshes their name. </p>
<p>When one of the Nazgul flies overhead, Gollum is overcome with fear. He belives Sauron is aware of the small trio. The impediments increase and the pace slows as they approach the gates of the Black Land. Ever-practical, Sam worries about the state of their food stocks. He also overhears Gollum debating with himself stealing the Ring &#8212; is Stinker overcoming the will of Slinker?</p>
<p>Come share your thoughts with us on Saturday in what&#8217;s sure to be another great Hall of Fire discussion!</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>TTT: Bk IV, Ch II: The Passage of the Marshes </p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=HOF+--+the+passage+of+the+marshes&#038;iso=20130907T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/06/78567-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-the-passage-of-the-marshes/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hall of Fire this Saturday: Boromir, tragic hero of Gondor</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/30/77999-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-boromir-tragic-hero-of-gondor-2/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/30/77999-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-boromir-tragic-hero-of-gondor-2/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Aug 2013 01:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=77999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This Saturday (at 6pm ET (New York time)) Hall of Fire will be discussing one of the great (and tragic) heroes of Middle-earth &#8212; Boromir the Brave. &#8216;The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This Saturday (at 6pm ET (New York time)) Hall of Fire will be discussing one of the great (and tragic) heroes of Middle-earth &#8212; Boromir the Brave.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8216;The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!&#8217; The Council of Elrond.</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-77999"></span></p>
<p><b>Boromir: the tragic hero of Gondor</b></p>
<p>A proud, strong warrior and a charismatic leader of men, Boromir the Brave is both a heroic and a tragic figure in Tolkien&#8217;s The Lord of the Rings. His need for power, action, and great deeds push him too far. Yet, at the same time, we can find much to admire in his personality. </p>
<p>How do you view the strengths and weaknesses of Boromir?</p>
<p>What would have been the outcome if Boromir had come into possession of It, or if he had persuaded the Walkers to go to Minas Tirith? Would Boromir have acknowledged Aragorn as King? How would you have fared under the influence of the Ring? </p>
<p>Finally, what lessons can we draw from Boromir&#8217;s trials?</p>
<p>Come share your thoughts with us on Saturday in what&#8217;s sure to be another great Hall of Fire discussion!</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>The Council of Elrond<br />
The Breaking of the Fellowship<br />
The Passing of Boromir<br />
The Window on the West</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=HoF%3A+Boromir%2C+tragic+hero+of+Gondor&#038;iso=20130831T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/30/77999-hall-of-fire-this-saturday-boromir-tragic-hero-of-gondor-2/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Ten ways TORn serves Tolkien and Lord of the Rings fandom</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/29/77887-ten-ways-torn-serves-tolkien-and-lord-of-the-rings-fandom/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/29/77887-ten-ways-torn-serves-tolkien-and-lord-of-the-rings-fandom/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Aug 2013 11:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Garfeimao</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cannes 2001]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Casting Rumors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ComicCon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Conventions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Costuming]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Crew News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Director Rumors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[DragonCon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Events]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Fans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Fellowship of the Ring]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Film Screenings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Book]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Cast News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Movie]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Movie Rumors]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[J.R.R. Tolkien]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lectures & Education]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Locations Sets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Cast News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Movies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Make the Hobbit Happen]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meet Ups]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Movie Fellowship of the Ring]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Movie Return of the King]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Movie The Two Towers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MrCere in New Zealand]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[New Zealand]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old Cannes News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old ComicCon News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old DragonCon News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old Main News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old Oscar Party News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old Spy Reports]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Original TORn]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Oscar Parties]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Other Events]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Other Merchandise]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Other Tolkien books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Jackson]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[PJ New Line]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[PJ's Other Films]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Production]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Return of the King]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rumors Spy News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rumours Spy News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Studios]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Two Towers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tolkien]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tolkien Reading Day]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Trailer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Wellington]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Comic-Con]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hall of fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[happy hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[library]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[TORn Live]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[TORn Tuesdays]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=77887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Beginning last Saturday and running through to September 4, TheOneRing.net is hosting a Pledge Drive (see the banner at the top) as well as a bunch of auctions for some really cool memorabilia and collectibles. The day-to-day operation of the website, and the events we host, require a lot more resources than when we first [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/29/77887-ten-ways-torn-serves-tolkien-and-lord-of-the-rings-fandom/torn-logo/" rel="attachment wp-att-77888"><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-77888" alt="TORn logo" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/TORn-logo.jpg" width="225" height="225" /></a>Beginning last Saturday and running through to September 4, TheOneRing.net is hosting a Pledge Drive (see the banner at the top) as well as a bunch of auctions for some really cool memorabilia and collectibles.</p>
<p>The day-to-day operation of the website, and the events we host, require a lot more resources than when we first started nearly 15 years ago. We sometimes find it hard to ask our readers for the help we need to keep running, so we began discussing what it is that makes TheOneRing.net worth helping out. It started out as a search for the Top Ten Moments of TORn, but the list got so long because each staff member had their own idea of important moments in TORn history. Here, instead, is something more encompassing: Ten Ways TORn helps serve Tolkien and Lord of the Rings fandom (listed in no specific order).</p>
<p>And, if you enjoy what we do, consider a donation (no amount too small, because every bit <i>does</i> help!) to keep us running!</p>
<p>If you can&#8217;t, that&#8217;s fine as well &#8212; keep reading, commenting and contributing. Because TORn is as much you as it is us!</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve ever <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/contact-us/" target="_blank">sent in an article, submitted a photo or report</a>, posted on our <a href="http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?">messageboards</a>, visited our <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">chat</a>, or commented on our <a href="http://twitter.com/theoneringnet/" target="_blank">twitter</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TheOneRingnet" target="_blank">facebook</a> or <a href="https://plus.google.com/u/1/b/114727809246387939564/114727809246387939564/posts" target="_blank">g+</a>, you&#8217;re the reason TheOneRing.net is among the largest and most-respected pillars of the Tolkien community on the web.</p>
<p><span id="more-77887"></span></p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3>Spy Reports</h3>
</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Spy reports were a big part of our content when the website first started. From casting announcements to secret location pictures to leaked images of important plot points, spy reports were our bread and butter stories. Some of the reports were from random, anonymous sources, while others were official leaks from cast and crew. In fact, there were many production members who said they used TheOneRing.net to keep track of what some of the other filming units were doing. Other spy reports were just someone stumbling upon a film location and sending in a story or images and then we’d all try and guess what location it actually was. Some of our biggest spy reports were of Arwen at Helm’s Deep (which subsequently didn’t happen), Saruman’s prone body on a spiky wheel (which did happen), and TheOneRing.net was given the honor of introducing Thorin to the world. And very soon, we will be seeing stories from MrCere’s visit to the set from his Production Embed last year.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-63495" alt="Barliman's Chat" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" width="239" height="100" />Hall of Fire Chats and the Message Boards</h3>
</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Literary discussions on the message boards and Hall of Fire chats &#8211; From the very beginning of TheOneRing.net, discussions of the books, chapter by chapter, has been a hallmark. After all, while we waited for news on who would be cast, where filming would take place, and rumors of what might be cut out, we had the books to talk about. Discussions worked by talking about one chapter at a time, and luckily, there are enough books with enough chapters, to keep those discussions going on for a long while. Since the beginning, we’ve looped through the books several times, but luckily, there are always new readers joining the discussion, and new interpretations to be had. And for something a little more dynamic, there are the Hall of Fire chats in Barlimans. Sometimes the talk is about a specific chapter, or a certain character, and sometimes it is about current events, such as new character images or reviews of a recently released trailer. No matter which forum you use, there is always someone to talk to about some aspect of Tolkien, the books or our fandom.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-75651" alt="Kili and Fili fanmail" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Kili-and-Fili-fanmail-300x202.jpg" width="300" height="202" />TORns Live Videos</h3>
</li>
<li>We began with TORn Live, which consisted of Red Carpet interviews at premieres, awards ceremonies and special events like Cannes 2001 and SDCC. These would be recorded, edited and released online a few days or weeks later. But technology now allows for live streaming interviews and vlogs and the like. Quickbeam hosts a weekly TORn Tuesday event with interviews and discussions, while he interacts with a live chatroom. The Happy Hobbit ladies record and post their vlogs and post them within a day or two of their recordings, for a much quicker turnaround on video content. And right now we have the Road to DragonCon in full swing with live streaming from across the country.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="size-medium wp-image-75793 alignleft" alt="Live Coverage from Comic-Con 2013 and all things The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien." src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Live-Coverage-from-Comic-Con-2013-and-all-things-The-Hobbit-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-Tolkien.-300x182.jpg" width="300" height="182" />Conventions</h3>
</li>
<li>Convention appearances &#8211; Calisuri and Quickbeam hosted a panel at San Diego Comic Con in 2001, before the release of FOTR, and since then barely a year has gone by that TORn hasn’t had a presence at at least one convention. At many of the conventions we appear at we also have a presence on the exhibit hall floor where we have sold some of our classic TORn shirts. We love it when we get up on stage for a panel and half the people in the audience are wearing some of our older shirts.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3> </h3>
<div id="attachment_48236" class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 310px"><img class="size-medium wp-image-48236" alt="Baggins Birthday Party sign" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/BBpartysign-300x225.jpg" width="300" height="225" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Baggins Birthday Party sign</p></div>
<h3>Line Parties and Fan Events</h3>
</li>
<li>Line Parties and other fan hosted events &#8211; TheOneRing.net has always been a grass roots type of fan-site and that is no more apparent then looking at the Line Parties of years past. Whether it is just a few friends, or some hundreds of people signing up on the website to attend, fans like you all over the world hosted Line Parties. A few even took place over several days, and included costume contests and trivia games for prizes. Other fan hosted events over the years have been the Hobbit Day/Baggins Birthday Bash events on Sept. 22, the Tolkien Toast on Jan. 3 and the Tolkien Reading Day on March 25. TORn staff in Los Angeles have been hosting a Baggins Birthday Bash party for 11 years now, but there are fan groups around the world that have hosted similar events. Smaller moots happen around the world all the time, there is a very active group in Wellington and one in Croatia. If you are hosting a fan event in the next year or two, please feel free to tell us about it.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-64418" alt="Return of the One Party Oscars on Stage" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/12383-300x225.jpg" width="300" height="225" />The Oscar Parties</h3>
</li>
<li>Originally conceived as a fan event to help raise funds to buy TORn a new server, who could have imagined the Cast and Crew actually showing up to the FOTR oscar party? Even more surprising, who could have imagined the ROTK sweep and all those Oscars on stage at a fan hosted party?</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-77892" alt="ORCImage" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ORCImage-300x225.jpg" width="300" height="225" />O.R.C and E.L.F.</h3>
</li>
<li>TheOneRing.net hosted conventions &#8211; The One Ring Celebration on the West Coast (O.R.C.) and the Eastern Lord of the Rings Festival on the East Coast (E.L.F.) were co-productions with a professional convention company, but they definitely had a TORn stamp on them. The conventions allowed us to combine our love of the films by interacting with cast and crew with our love of the books through academic discussions, the art shows and costume displays. We really did break the mold on how a commercial scifi convention is run and hope everyone who attended had a blast.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignright  wp-image-77883" alt="PeoplesGuideImage" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/PeoplesGuideImage-199x300.jpg" width="139" height="210" />Academic essays and editorials</h3>
</li>
<li>TORn has long standing relationships with many in the academic community who have posted guest essays and editorials. Over the year several staffers have posted in depth analysis to fan questions on the site as well. In fact, we have a whole section on the ‘old TORn’ (pre-crash) called Green Books for academic posts. This section had so much good stuff in it, we published a book called “The People’s Guide to J.R.R. Tolkien” and a sequel book as well.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class=" wp-image-70726 alignleft" alt="#VoteBilbo Avatars" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/vbavatars9.jpg" width="158" height="158" />Driving fan initiatives</h3>
</li>
<li>After Return of the King was done and Peter Jackson moved on to do King Kong, the fans waited to see what would happen with The Hobbit afterwards. Months turned to years and still no word while studios went bankrupt, copyrights issues got tangled up and various lawsuits were filed for missing payments. Finally, a few fans decided they had had enough and started a petition to &#8216;Make the Hobbit Happen&#8217;. They brought it to TORn and we got thousands of you to sign so that a big pile of names was delivered to TPTB. A similar thing happened when there was talk that the production would be moved out of New Zealand. The fans could see no where else as Middle-earth, so the &#8216;Keep the Hobbit in NZ&#8217; campaign was born, but this time on Social Media. And most recently, there was an explosion of Tolkien fan love over the #Votebilbo twitter event prompted by an MTV Audience Award.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<ul>
<li>
<h3><img class="alignleft  wp-image-77893" alt="TORnFacebook" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/TORnFacebook-300x212.jpg" width="270" height="191" />TORn Community</h3>
</li>
<li>This list compiles many of the things that TheOneRing.net does to keep you informed, entertained and engaged, but there is really just one thing that makes TheOneRing.net so important to keep around. And that is the community of fans that convene on our message boards, in Barliman’s chat, on Facebook and Twitter.</li>
</ul>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-77894" alt="TORnTwitter" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/TORnTwitter-300x186.jpg" width="300" height="186" />This site was built by fans getting together to discuss what they hoped for from Peter Jackson long before FOTR ever saw the light of day. The fact that a long existing fan-base gathered here meant engaged and informed discussion began from day one, including analyzing all the spy reports about casting and location details. We didn’t have to wait for the release of the films, or for several episodes of a new show to take off before we could discuss the minutia of every detail because our fan base was already well established.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>And what is ‘fandom’ if not a community of like minded people passionate about the same thing. Sure, everyone has their own opinions, so every time a new image was released, or a new trailer appeared, the message boards and chatroom erupted into heated discussions. But as the years wore on friendships were made, some turning into marriage, and we all began meeting up at various moots, conventions, concerts, premiere events, trips to New Zealand or just coffee and a movie. How many of you newer fans were galvanized by the #Votebilbo campaign and now have a wider array of Twitter friends because of it? The fact that TORn was able to continue to exist during all those lean years between film productions is due mostly to you, the readers, sticking around to discuss anything and everything to do with Tolkien, and sometimes other bits of pop culture. We know that after the release of The Hobbit: There and Back Again we will see another decline of readership, but we also know that the community is strong, the friendships have been forged and all of you take that fandom with you where ever you go next.</p>
<p>So again, if you are so inclined to help support us and keep the website going, please do make a pledge or bid on one of the many cool auction items we&#8217;ve been posting about the past few days. On behalf of the All Volunteer Staff at TheOneRing.net, you have our deepest gratitude for all the support over the years.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-43375" alt="theonering-logo-2010" src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/theonering-logo-2010-300x55.png" width="300" height="55" /></p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: Can we bear Beorn</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/24/77558-hall-of-fire-chat-log-can-we-bear-beorn/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/24/77558-hall-of-fire-chat-log-can-we-bear-beorn/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Aug 2013 11:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Alan Lee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Characters]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Book]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Movie]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[J.R.R. Tolkien]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Howe]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Locations Sets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mikael Persbrandt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tolkien]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beorn]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[library]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=77558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend, The Hall of Fire examined what&#8217;s undoubtedly the movie topic of the moment &#8212; the character and appearance of Beorn. Lots of thoughtful opinions from all sides, and some interesting analysis of the mythic roots of Tolkien&#8217;s shapeshifter as well as of Alan Lee, John Howe and Ted Nasmith&#8217;s classic illustrations. Plenty of [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend, <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">The Hall of Fire</a> examined what&#8217;s undoubtedly the movie topic of the moment &#8212; the character and appearance of Beorn. Lots of thoughtful opinions from all sides, and some interesting analysis of the mythic roots of Tolkien&#8217;s  shapeshifter as well as of Alan Lee, John Howe and Ted Nasmith&#8217;s classic illustrations. Plenty of spoilers, too! For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log.</p>
<p>Also, this weekend (Saturday August 24 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be returning to our Lord of the Rings book chats. This week we begin the first chapter of book four &#8212; The Taming of Smeagol &#8212; so be sure to join us for this exciting topic!<span id="more-77558"></span></p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire tomorrow: The Taming of Smeagol</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/23/77548-hall-of-fire-tomorrow-the-taming-of-smeagol/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/23/77548-hall-of-fire-tomorrow-the-taming-of-smeagol/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Aug 2013 04:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=77548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend we return to our regular Lord of the Rings chapter discussions in the Hall of Fire as we leap into Book Four of The Two Towers, focusing on the desperate situation of Frodo and Sam as they try to find some way off the sheer, broken slopes of Emyn Muil. Worse, they realise [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This weekend we return to our regular Lord of the Rings chapter discussions in the Hall of Fire as we leap into Book Four of The Two Towers, focusing on the desperate situation of Frodo and Sam as they try to find some way off the sheer, broken slopes of Emyn Muil. Worse, they realise they have a stalker.<span id="more-77548"></span></p>
<blockquote><p>One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them.<br />
Would you commit your promise to that, Sméagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!&#8217;<br />
Gollum cowered. &#8216;On the Precious. on the Precious!&#8217; he repeated.</p></blockquote>
<p><b>The Two Towers: Book IV, Chapter I: The Taming of Sméagol</b></p>
<p>At the end of The Fellowshp of the Ring, the Fellowship splits into two perilous quests: the Three Hunters attempt to rescue Merry and Pippin from their captors while Frodo and Sam continue on their original mission to Mordor to destroy the One Ring. </p>
<p>Even fresh from parting with the rest of the Fellowship, Frodo already appears to be wearying from the burden of responsibility &#8211; and the increasing proximity of Mordor. Fearing discovery, he and Sam descend the cliff faces of Emyn Muil in the dark, but it is not enough to elude Gollum, who is obsessed with retrieving his Precious.</p>
<p>However, Fortune, of a sort, shines upon Frodo and Sam and the captured Gollum. This leaves Frodo with a fateful choice &#8212; a turning point in the events of the War of the Ring. Drafting Smeagol as an unlikely, and unwilling, all will have far greater consequences than he could ever have foreseen&#8230; </p>
<p>Join us tomorrow, Saturday August 24, at 6pm EST (New York time) in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat" target="_blank">The Hall of Fire</a> as we discuss The Taming of Smeagol.</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>TTT Bk IV, Ch I: The Taming of Smeagol</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire%3A+The+Taming+of+Smeagol&#038;iso=20130824T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Hall of Fire this weekend: can we bear Beorn?</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/16/77190-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-can-we-bear-beorn/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/16/77190-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-can-we-bear-beorn/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[battle of the five armies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beorn]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=77190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend the Hall of Fire will be taking a detour into the Hobbit movie minefield as we tackle possibly the topic of the moment &#8212; the appearance and character of the shapeshifter Beorn. Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This weekend <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">the Hall of Fire</a> will be taking a detour into the Hobbit movie minefield as we tackle possibly the topic of the moment &#8212; the appearance and character of the shapeshifter Beorn.</p>
<blockquote><p>Standing near was a huge man with a thick black beard and hair, and great bare arms and legs with knotted muscles. He was clothed in a tunic of wool down to his knees, and was leaning on a large axe. Queer Lodgings, The Hobbit.</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-77190"></span></p>
<p><b>Can we bear Beorn?</b></p>
<p>Tolkien&#8217;s Beorn is a gruff, semi-reclusive being who takes a bit of convincing to help out the Company. His assistance is half-reluctant, prompted more by his detestation of the depredations of the Misty Mountains than any love of dwarves, wizards &#8212; or hobbits! </p>
<p>Yet, nearing the conclusion of the novel, he re-appears to play a key role.</p>
<p>The question is, what can we expect from Peter Jackson&#8217;s Beorn? What conclusions do you feel can legitimately be drawn about <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/09/76752-sd-calendar-reveals-a-new-image-of-beorn-in-human-form/" target="_blank">the spy image we saw leaked via the SD Toys calendar</a> last week?</p>
<p>And what do you feel about the general fan response so far? Too negative? Too positive? Just right? <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/12/76811-peter-jacksons-beorn-not-yet-convincing-fans/" target="_blank">Our poll so far reveals</a> that 58.4% are taking a wait and see attitude, 17.4% are against the look, while 12.5% are in favour. Which camp are you in, and why? And what could sway your attitude?</p>
<p>Join us this Saturday at 6pm EST (New York time) in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">#thehalloffire on the TORn chat server</a> for what&#8217;s sure to be a lively and spoiler-filled discussion!</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings<br />
The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire+--+Can+we+bear+Beorn%3F&#038;iso=20130817T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
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		<title>Hall of Fire this weekend: Akallabêth</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/10/76776-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-akallabeth/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/10/76776-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-akallabeth/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2013 08:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76776</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend in the Hall of Fire, we will be discussing one of the great (and tragic) stories of Tolkien&#8217;s Legendarium, Akallabêth: The Downfall of Numenor. A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This weekend in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">the Hall of Fire</a>, we will be discussing one of the great (and tragic) stories of Tolkien&#8217;s Legendarium, Akallabêth: The Downfall of Numenor.</p>
<blockquote><p>A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. Akallbeth, The Silmarillion.</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-76776"></span></p>
<p><b>Akallabêth: The Downfall of Númenor</b></p>
<p>Documented in The Silmarillion, Akallabêth charts the rise and fall of the Dúnedain of Numenor. Rewarded with a bounteous land of their own for their forefathers&#8217; sacrifices in the dreadful wars against Morgoth, after centuries of peace and propsperity the anscestors of the Númenoreans proceed to throw it all away in a fit of hubris and misplaced envy of the immortality of the elves of Valinor and of the Valar themselves. </p>
<p>Not even the most earnest entreaties of elven emissaries sent by Manwë himself seems able to dissuade the Númenoreans that Valinor itself is the source immortality.</p>
<p>And when the last and mightiest Númenorean king Ar-Pharazôn brings Sauron to the island as his prisoner and hostage, it&#8217;s not long before the Dark Lord seduces the majority of the populace to the open worship of Morgoth and has the king plotting war upon the Undying Lands.</p>
<p>Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>The Silmarillion: Akallabêth<br />
Unfinished Tales: The Druedain</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire%3A+Akallab%C3%AAth&#038;iso=20130810T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Hall of Fire this weekend: The Palantìr</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/02/76349-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-the-palantir/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/08/02/76349-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-the-palantir/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend in the Hall of Fire, we&#8217;ll be chatting about the final chapter of Book III of The Two Towers. &#8216;Go to sleep!&#8217; said Merry. &#8216;You&#8217;ll get information enough, sooner or later. My dear Pippin, no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness; but is this the time, I ask you?&#8217; &#8216;All right! What&#8217;s [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> This weekend in <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">the Hall of Fire</a>, we&#8217;ll be chatting about the final chapter of Book III of The Two Towers. </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8216;Go to sleep!&#8217; said Merry. &#8216;You&#8217;ll get information enough, sooner or later. My dear Pippin, no Took ever beat a Brandybuck for inquisitiveness; but is this the time, I ask you?&#8217;<span id="more-76349"></span></p>
<p>&#8216;All right! What&#8217;s the harm in my telling you what I should like: a look at that stone? I know I can&#8217;t have it, with old Gandalf sitting on it, like a hen on an egg. But it doesn&#8217;t help much to get no more from you than a you-can&#8217;t-have-it so-go-to-sleep!&#8217;</p></blockquote>
<p><b>The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter XI: The Palantìr</b></p>
<p>When Wormtongue hurls a black orb at Saruman from the upper levels of Orthanc, the first to respond is Pippin. Gandalf rescues it from him, but the strange object piques the Hobbit&#8217;s curiosity.</p>
<p>Later that night when Gandalf, Theoden and the remainder of the company rest, Pippin finds a way to steal the orb from the wizard&#8217;s grasp and peer into its dark depths. His reckless toying with the orb, an ancient Palantìr that allows communication over incredible distances, rapidly puts him in dreadful danger &#8212; caught in the grasp of the Dark Lord himself. Only Sauron&#8217;s greedy desire to bring the Hobbit to Barad-dur for direct questioning saves the Quest.</p>
<p>Gandalf quickly pulls the truth of the encounter from the terrified Hobbit, then as one of the Nine flies over their camp leaves the Palantìr with Aragorn and rides with Pippin for Minas Tirith.</p>
<p>Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>TTT Bk III, Ch XI: The Palantìr<br />
Unfinished Tales: The Palantìr </p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire%3A+The+Palantir&#038;iso=20130803T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hall of Fire tomorrow: aspects of heroism within the Fellowship</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/27/76066-hall-of-fire-tomorrow-aspects-of-heroism-within-the-fellowship/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/27/76066-hall-of-fire-tomorrow-aspects-of-heroism-within-the-fellowship/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jul 2013 14:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=76066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend in Hall of Fire we discussed the hero and the heroic in Lord of the Rings. The topic proved quite popular for everyone, so by request this weekend we&#8217;ll be honing in a little more to examine heroism among the Fellowship itself. ‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend in Hall of Fire we discussed the hero and the heroic in Lord of the Rings. The topic proved quite popular for everyone, so by request this weekend we&#8217;ll be honing in a little more to examine heroism among the Fellowship itself.</p>
<blockquote><p>‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.<br />
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us. A Shadow of the Past, The Lord of the Rings. </p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-76066"></span></p>
<p><b>Aspects of heroism within the Fellowship</b></p>
<p>What do the Fellowship have to tell us about heroism? How does the heroism of Aragorn differ from the bravery of Boromir? Is Gandalf&#8217;s sacrifice at the Bridge of Khazad-dum the single-most selfless act of the entire Quest? Is Sam&#8217;s steadfastness actually that different from Frodo&#8217;s determination to not give in?</p>
<p>And if the bravery of each of the hobbits in the face of increasing adversity and danger show us that heroism need not have a great lineage, then what do Legolas and Gimli have to teach us?</p>
<p>Join us this weekend for what is sure to be yet another lively debate.</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>FOTR Bk I, Ch 11: A Knife in the Dark<br />
TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir<br />
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise<br />
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Hall+of+Fire%3A+aspects+of+heroism+in+the+Fellowship&#038;iso=20130727T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p><b>How long do your topic chats go for?</b></p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p><b>Where — connection details</b></p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hall of Fire this weekend: the hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/19/75781-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-the-hero-and-the-heroic-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/19/75781-hall-of-fire-this-weekend-the-hero-and-the-heroic-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jul 2013 04:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barliman News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=75781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This weekend, Hall of Fire we&#8217;ll be exploring the hero, and the heroic, in the Lord of the Rings. I think the simple &#8216;rustic&#8217; love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero&#8217;s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /><br />
This weekend, <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">Hall of Fire</a> we&#8217;ll be exploring the hero, and the heroic, in the Lord of the Rings.</p>
<blockquote><p>I think the simple &#8216;rustic&#8217; love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero&#8217;s) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the &#8216;longing for Elves&#8217;, and sheer beauty. Letter #131, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-75781"></span></p>
<p><b>The hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings</b></p>
<p>We know from his letter to Milton Waldman that Tolkien regarded Sam as the chief hero of the tale. But why? What is it that makes him Tolkien&#8217;s hero? <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor">Do you even agree</a> with Tolkien&#8217;s appraisal?</p>
<p>More generally, what actions or traits create a hero anyway? </p>
<p>The Greek and Latin etymology of the word suggest a hero is a protector, or a defender.</p>
<p>So is it all about sheer physical strength and courage in battle such as Boromir exhibited? Warrior brawn? But what of the inspirational guidance that Aragorn and Gandalf show? And how much of a role must adversity play? And are quieter, less flashy traits important ingredients? Traits such as steadfastness and loyalty to a seemingly impossible cause or task?</p>
<p>Join us in the href=&#8221;http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat&#8221;>The Hall of Fire</a>Hall of Fire</a> on Saturday July 20 from 6pm EDT (New York time) for what promises to be another great discussion.</p>
<p><b>Some suggested reading:</b></p>
<p>TTT Bk III, Ch I: The Departure of Boromir<br />
TTT Bk IV, Ch X: The Choices of Master Samwise<br />
ROTK Bk V, Ch VI: The Battle of Pelennor Fields</p>
<p><b>Time zone conversions</b></p>
<p>Not sure what time the chat will be where you are? Check this little conversion table out for some help. Alternatively, check <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=HoF+--+the+hero+and+the+heroic+in+LOTR&#038;iso=20130720T18&#038;p1=179&#038;ah=1&#038;am=30" target="_blank">our handy Event Announcer</a> over on Time and Date for the correct time in your area. </p>
<p>America:<br />
6.00pm EDT (New York)<br />
5.00pm CDT (Chicago)<br />
4.00pm MDT (Denver)<br />
3.00pm PDT (Los Angeles)</p>
<p>Europe:<br />
11.00pm BST (London)<br />
11.00pm CST (Paris)<br />
1.00am EEST (Helsinki)</p>
<p>Asia-Pacific<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Brisbane<br />
8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne<br />
10.00am NZST (Sunday) Wellington</p>
<p>How long do your topic chats go for?</p>
<p>Our chats usually last from an hour to ninety minutes, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">open 24 hours a day</a>. We don&#8217;t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you&#8217;ll usually find one or two of &#8220;the regulars&#8221; up for a chat!</p>
<p>Where — connection details</p>
<p>Chat happens on #thehalloffire on irc.theonering.net — the TORn IRC server. You can connect instantly via <a href="http://www.theonering.net/torwp/chat">our embedded Mibbit client</a> that works inside your web browser. </p>
<p>Alternatively, you can install a dedicated chat program such as <a href="http://www.mirc.com">mIRC</a> on your computer and just plug in the following connection details.</p>
<p>Server: irc.theonering.net<br />
Port: 6667<br />
Channel: #thehalloffire</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hall of Fire chat log: the stewards of Middle-earth</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/13/75595-hall-of-fire-chat-log-the-stewards-of-middle-earth/</link>
		<comments>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/13/75595-hall-of-fire-chat-log-the-stewards-of-middle-earth/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Barlimans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Green Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hall of Fire]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hobbit Book]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lord of the Rings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LotR Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Hobbit]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Two Towers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Denethor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gandalf]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[library]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Saruman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sauron]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tom bombadil]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[treebeard]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=75595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf&#8217;s famous &#8220;For I also am a steward&#8221; rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter of [&#8230;]]]></description>
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img src="http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barli_logo4_sm.jpg" alt="Barliman&#039;s Chat" width="239" height="100" class="alignright size-full wp-image-63495" /> Last weekend in the Hall of Fire, bouncing off Gandalf&#8217;s famous &#8220;For I also am a steward&#8221; rejoinder to Denethor, we discussed exactly what made a steward in Middle-earth. For those who couldn’t attend, here&#8217;s a log. </p>
<p>And remember, tomorrow (July 13 at 6pm EDT (New York time)) we&#8217;ll be discussing the next chapter of The Two Towers: The Voice of Saruman.<span id="more-75595"></span></p>
<hr />
<b>Session Start: Sun Jul 07 07:24:00 2013</b><br />
<b>Session Ident: #thehalloffire</b><br />
 * Demosthenes changes topic to &#8216;The HOF topic today: the stewards of middle-earth. | General TORn chat thataway! click &#8211;] #theonering.net&#8217;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Okay. Let&#8217;s maybe get this show on the road?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] But that doesn&#8217;t make them stewards, Erkenbrand.<br />
 [Puma] the valar and even eru are very present in lotr&#8230;.and sil of course<br />
 [Erkenbrand] the ainur are more detached and influence middle earth indirectly<br />
 [Gondhir] also&#8230; Frodo didn&#8217;t have a direct influence for good?<br />
 [Puma] no they dont<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. You know the Istari ARE Ainur, right?<br />
 [Puma] for instance&#8230;..how did faramir many times.and bormoir once get the dream<br />
 [Demosthenes] Stewards of Middle-earth. Who? What? Why?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Many characters seem to fill the role of stewards in Tolkien&#8217;s Middle-earth. Some are obvious: rulers such as Denethor and Theoden, members of the council of the wise like Elrond and Garadriel, the Istari and the Valar.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Treebeard, and even Tom Bombadil and the Entwives can also be examined in the same light. Others such as Samwise and Eowyn are more subtly portrayed.<br />
 [Demosthenes] But what are the defining traits of a steward in Tolkien&#8217;s milieu?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] the istari are maiar<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, I think we should first define &#8220;steward.&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] Sam is an ACTUAL steward, I&#8217;d stay<br />
 [Erkenbrand] and I am classing the istari separately<br />
 [Demosthenes] I agree.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Erkenbrand. Yes. And the Valar and the Maiar together are the Ainur..<br />
 [Gondhir] like&#8230; he serves food etc.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Frodo didn&#8217;t steward much apart from the Ring. And perhaps the Shire, indirectly.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And Gollum, one could argue<br />
 [Demosthenes] What is a steward, here?<br />
 [Puma] the dreams came from ulmo who has a history of sending dreams.that is direct influence<br />
 [ChristineGolden] A steward is someone entrusted by a higher power to carry out their orders.<br />
 [Gondhir] right<br />
 [Gondhir] a vicar, as it were<br />
 [Ringlordsander] ChristineGolden. So practically the Istari?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I would say a steward was someone entrusted to protect or oversee something.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Can a steward be self-appointed?<br />
 [Puma] and ulmo of all the valar.always did his best to look after middle earth<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think anyone appointed Treebeard to anything<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t think so, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] He sort of took on that role because he was him<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Who do you think would be the steward of Gondor in the forth age?<br />
 [sauronswife] Faramir&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes]  &#8220;But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish,<br />
 [Puma] faramir at the start<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] One could argue Tom Bombadil was the steward of his little bit of earth. Certainly nobody appointed him<br />
 [Ringlordsander] But, if you define a steward as someone &#8216;entrusted by a highter power to carry out their orders&#8217;. You could argue that almost everyone in ME is a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit<br />
 [Puma] then his son elboron<br />
 [Demosthenes] and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know??<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Would there be any more kings after aragorn?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gandalf doesn&#8217;t mention anything about being appointed to be one.<br />
 [Gondhir] I think a steward has to be working FOR SOMEONE<br />
 [miriel] good point jennie<br />
 [ChristineGolden] We don&#8217;t know that, Jennie, mainly because we don&#8217;t know who or what Bombadil really was.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Even if that someone is oneself?<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: Gandalf doesn&#8217;t mention it, but he was, in fact, appointed by the Valar<br />
 [Puma] well.the ainur work for eru<br />
 [miriel] would we find a steward in the Shire, do you say?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I suppose. He didn&#8217;t seem to feel very subservient to anyone<br />
 [Demosthenes] miriel: the mayor? the thain?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sam is a steward in the shire<br />
 [Gondhir] the Thain is arguably the &#8220;steward&#8221; of the King of Arnor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Several people steward the Shire<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Even the rangers<br />
 [Puma] sam became a steward of the shire after the war<br />
 [Gondhir] the King then&#8230; disappeared<br />
 [Gondhir] just as there ceased to be a King of Gondor<br />
 [Gondhir] but the Stewards of Gondor continued on<br />
 [Darkover] mae govannen, all!<br />
 [Demosthenes] gond: but &#8230; positions of feudal power are usually initially acquired by force.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Hi Darkover<br />
 [Puma] gday Darkover<br />
 [sauronswife] Evening Darkover.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which is &#8230; well &#8230; self-appointment.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] yes<br />
 [Goldberry] hey darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Grima Wormtongue was a steward.<br />
 [Puma] jrr specifically said middle earth was not feudal<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Grima was a steward<br />
 [miriel] the thain dies sound more like a steward than the mayor. Was there not a point where there was talk that if there was a rightful leader of the shire, it would be him?<br />
 [Darkover] Was Wormtongue a steward, or an advisor, Chris?<br />
 [Ringlordsander] But almost everyone is someone appointed by someone else&#8230; So could we argue that basically everyone in Middle-Earth is a steward?<br />
 [Demosthenes] puma: heredirtary (and classist) power structures then.<br />
 [Goldberry] where did he say that Puma?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] can a steward be a steward if they are working for an evil power?<br />
 [Darkover] There was, Miriel, when the &#8220;Chief&#8221; Lotho began challenging the Tooks<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He ran Rohan in Theoden&#8217;s name until Gandalf did his exorcism thing.<br />
 [Gondhir] actually&#8230; Grima may have been acting as Theoden&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not a very responsible steward<br />
 [Gondhir] depends on to what extent he was actually &#8220;running&#8217; Rohan<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Saruman was arguably a very irresponsible steward of Isengard<br />
 [Gondhir] in the movie, he clearly IS directly running it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Btw, hi, Darkover, didn&#8217;t see ya slip in.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Gondhir] not so clear in the book<br />
 [Puma] from 3014 on grima was a steward of theoden<br />
 [miriel] thanks Darkover, that was the thing I was remembering<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What became of Orthanc after the Fall of saruman?<br />
 [Darkover] I doubt if evil Stewards can exist, Erkenbrand, because Sauron and other baddies don&#8217;t trust underlings enough to give them any great power in their own right.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Duno<br />
 [Puma] aragorn reclaimed it<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Of course &#8220;evil&#8221; steward exist<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] did anyone settle in it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Denethor was hardly a force for good, and he was definitely a steward.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Presumably the pits were filled in<br />
 [Gondhir] you don&#8217;t think Sauron entrusted anything to underlings?<br />
 [sauronswife] I&#8217;m iffy on &#8220;evil stewards&#8230;&#8221; I need a LONG think on that.<br />
 [Ringlordsander] So Frodo was a steward as well? He did lord Elrond&#8217;s will by taking the Ring to Mordor&#8230;<br />
 [Gondhir] he didn&#8217;t DIRECTLY control everything<br />
 [Puma] Denethor was a force for good!!!!!<br />
 [ChristineGolden] How could Frodo be a steward?<br />
 [lunarising] could the witch king be considered a &#8216;steward&#8217; of Minas Morgul?<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Was he given the keys and it was left empty?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] saruman has some trust in grima and sauron has trust in gothmog and the witchking (who in turn trust kahmul)<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Frodo was a steward<br />
 [Gondhir] he wasn&#8217;t &#8220;working for&#8221; anyone in particular<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;d say he did the Council of Elrond&#8217;s will, but yeah, he stewarded the Ring on its way to Mt. Doom<br />
 [Gondhir] he certainly wasn&#8217;t Elrond&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Darkover] Chris, I don&#8217;t believe that is fair. Denethor protected Gondor for a long time. He may not have been charming about it, but that doesn&#8217;t lessen the rightness of his cause.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Or carrying out the commands of a higher being.<br />
 [Gondhir] &#8220;doing a good thing&#8221; does not mean that one is a steward<br />
 [Puma] frodo volunteered&#8230;.elrond said he thought the choice was right<br />
 [Gondhir] any more than &#8220;doing a bad thing&#8221; means that one is not<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He became corrupted, Darkover, like Boromir.<br />
 [Darkover] Gondhir, I didn&#8217;t say Sauron didn&#8217;t trust *anything* to underlings&#8211;clearly he did&#8211;but he would not have allowed one so powerful as a &#8220;steward&#8221; to exist, else that steward might become a rival someday.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Depends on what he did, lunarising. Sitting in a chair twirling an imaginary moustache isn&#8217;t really stewarding<br />
 [Ringlordsander] Puma. But it was lord Elrond&#8217;s will. And Frodo carried it out.. So that&#8217;d make Frodo a sterward by the definition we just made up..<br />
 [Demosthenes] Must a steward be powerful, darkover?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] denathor did both protect gondor and try to repel sauron but is was more for selfish motives<br />
 [Darkover] At the end, Chris, maybe so. But that was a personal failing on his part, it didn&#8217;t diminish the rightness of Denethor&#8217;s cause.<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Well what would saruman do with the ring if he attained it before sauron?<br />
 [Puma] i dont see Denethor as selfish<br />
 [Demosthenes] There has to be some element of responsibility. Otherwise there is no stewarding,<br />
 [Darkover] Demosthenes, yes, a Steward must have some power, else he is just a Steward in his own mind only.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Then I disagree with the made-up definition, Ringlordsander.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;m sure Denethor had many other duties in which he protected the welfare of Gondor.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] We just don&#8217;t hear of the day-to-day<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, what you just said. Sorry, I can&#8217;t reply to all these threads fast enough1<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sam does not have lots of power, just respect yet almost all of us agree that he was a steward<br />
 [Darkover] !<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Dol Guldor was being run by Khamul, one of the Nazgul<br />
 [Demosthenes] darkover: No that&#8217;s ok!<br />
 [Puma] Denethor had minas tirith very well prepared for the war.or at least as much as he could have<br />
 [Darkover] Thank  you, Demosthenes<br />
 [Demetria] Denethor was steward by birthright, and did his best to protect Gondor, however it did go to his head<br />
 [Darkover] Right, I agree with Puma&#8217;s comment about Denethor<br />
 [Gondhir] the WK ran Angmar and most (or at least a great deal) of Eregion<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I believe Sam was a steward only when he became mayor (?) of the Shire.<br />
 [Darkover] Erkenbrand, how was Sam a steward, unless you&#8217;re talking about his years as Mayor of the Shire?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think the corruption by Sauron was subtle and slow, but that he otherwise was a responsible Steward. Until the end.<br />
 [Xanaseb] hi hi people<br />
 [Gondhir] the book implies that the Mouth of Sauron is going to be appointed Warden of the West (or somesuch) in the event that the Gondorians et al surrender (or are crushed)<br />
 [Puma] i agree jennie.but b4 that also.when he spread the dust from the box.and planted the mallorn<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he practicaly rebuilt the shire<br />
 [Demetria] Sam became steward of the books given to him by Frodo, which was the history of the ring<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was a steward for good but after Boromir&#8217;s death he was really hit emotionally and could not act to his fullest<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: Aragorn did say (and we discussed this last week) that Saruman was &#8220;once wise and subtle&#8221;<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he also allowed Frodo to finish his task<br />
 [ChristineGolden] The only Denethor I &#8220;know&#8221; is the one revealed in the book and he wasn&#8217;t what I&#8217;d call a good person, let alone good steward.<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Denethor was not an evil steward<br />
 [Darkover] Ok, Sam became Steward of the books, and he became mayor, but that was all post-Ring War<br />
 [Gondhir] being a BAD steward also doesn&#8217;t mean that one is not a steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Right. Once upon a time, he was a friend to the trees, according to Fangorn<br />
 [Puma] Denethor did act to his fullest&#8230;..but gave in to despair when he saw what was in cirith ungol<br />
 [Darkover] Chris, IMO Denethor was a good person&#8211;until his bizarre, self-inflicted end&#8211;he just wasn&#8217;t a very *nice* person. There is a difference.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] are we talking stewards during, before or after the war of the ring? or just stewards throughout?<br />
 [Puma] i agree Darkover<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I think Sauron made him despair, but yeah.<br />
 [Darkover] Thanks, Puma<br />
 [Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: in general, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think throughout, Erkenbrand<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If so, Darkover, then why did Gandalf warn Pippin before they first appeared before Denethor in Minas Tirith?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] So<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sam counts<br />
 [Gondhir] I think Denethor didn&#8217;t really &#8220;give up&#8221; until after Faramir died and he saw the massive forces marshaling against Gondor<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, knowing this discussion, Erkenbrand, probably all of them.<br />
 [Gondhir] and decided that at best, he could prolong Gondor&#8217;s demise<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It was a slow self-inflicted end, which Gandalf had seen coming<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] What about Rohan?<br />
 [Gondhir] and that he might as well get it over with<br />
 [Puma] as for stewards of gondor&#8230;&#8230;.i would consider Cirion a steward of middle earth also&#8230;.by giving calenardhon to the eotheod&#8230;he strengthened the world he knew<br />
 [Demosthenes] It is arguable that, in the end, Denethor surrendered his stewardship (if not his Stewardship).<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Rohan after the WOTR<br />
 [Erkenbrand] my opinion is that denethor gave up after boromir died? does anyone know roughly when he started looking into the palanti?<br />
 [Darkover] Because Denethor tended to assume people were trying to keep things from him, plus he had never much trusted Gandalf anyway, and yet here was this hobbit being brought to Minas Tirith by the very wizard Denethor regarded as an untrustworthy busybody. Gandalf was essentially telling Pippin to watch his mouth, and not talk too much about Aragorn.<br />
 [Gondhir] Erkenbrand: Denethor started looking in the palantir long before that.<br />
 [Puma] he looked into the palantiri soon ofater ecthelion died<br />
 [Erkenbrand] any idea when?<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which is actually different to What Saruman (and Sauron) do as powers in the world.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think he&#8217;d been looking for a long while. Sauron was only gradually infecting him with darkness and despair<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, Denethor was not to be trusted.<br />
 [Demosthenes] They take different paths.<br />
 [Darkover] I think Denethor had begun palantir-gazing before that, but the death of Boromir sapped a lot of his spirit.<br />
 [Demetria] yes it did<br />
 [Puma] notice.denethor did not give into sauron as saruman did<br />
 [Erkenbrand] would anyone class faramir as a steward?<br />
 [ConjurerOfCheapTricks] Yes<br />
 [Darkover] I would&#8211;Faramir was the last ruling steward.<br />
 [lunarising] I would<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He was a steward, small and large S.<br />
 [Gondhir] Faramir was an actual Steward of Gondor<br />
 [Puma] faramir became one.to rebuild ithilien<br />
 [Darkover] Ooh, I like that, Chris <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Puma: If he had, he would have become more like Saruman. More authoritarian. And that&#8217;s the nasty flipside of a stewarship.<br />
 [Demetria] yes he was, and give a relm of his own as well<br />
 [Demosthenes] Great power can turn you into an authoritarian lunatic.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] His father gave him Ithilien to safeguard, and then he became Steward of Gondor until Aragorn was crowned.<br />
 [Puma] Denethor was a politician at heart.that was his weakness<br />
 [Darkover] And he was still Steward after Aragorn was crowned, by Aragorn&#8217;s decree, only he was no longer full ruler of Gondor&#8211;the King was<br />
 [Demetria] Aragorn gave him Ithilien after he was crowned<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Somebody&#8217;s got to arrange for garbage pickup<br />
 [Erkenbrand] can anyone think of a dwarf who could be a &#8220;Steward&#8221;?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, not offhand.<br />
 [Darkover] It strikes me that a lot of you people are really harsh towards Denethor. As Jennie just said, someone has to arrange for garbage pickup, so to speak.<br />
 [Demetria] Thorin<br />
 [sauronswife] Not sure Gimli would count but beyond him no other Dwarves come to mind.<br />
 [Darkover] I wouldn&#8217;t consider Gimli a steward.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I have a question: How does this contrast with the attitude that the Valar show over the millenia toward Middle-earth. Ultimately they are THE stewards. But their stewardship seems to become lighter and lighter as time goes on.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Darkover, I believe that a person must have a &#8220;bad seed,<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t mean Denethor, Darkover. I meant somebody&#8217;s got to deal with the day-to-day running of things, even after there&#8217;s a king on the throne.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] To make the big decisions<br />
 [ChristineGolden] oops, the ability to be corrupted inside them or they won&#8217;t be.<br />
 [sauronswife] There&#8217;s a GOOD reason the Valar have stepped back, and even stepped back even more. I wish it wasn&#8217;t so&#8230;. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Maybe, Demosthenes, because the Valar began to notice that while their intentions were always good, the results of their interference seldom were.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] One could argue Thror had stewarded Erebor. Until Smaug came.<br />
 [lunarising] weren&#8217;t they appointed &#8216;stewards&#8217; until the Children came?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But, not as anyone&#8217;s subordinate<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I think that the valar tried to get the people of middle earth to &#8220;Steward&#8221; themselves with only a little help, (the Istari) and so slowly pulled out over the centuaries<br />
 [Demosthenes] darkover: As stewards they have to face the consequences of their interference.<br />
 [Puma] take a questionable steward&#8230;pelendur..his advice stopped arvedui from becoming king&#8230;&#8230;much evil might ahve been averted but for him<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think, after the War of Wrath, the Valar became hesitant to interfere directly in the affairs of ME, and so they sent the Istari.<br />
 [Darkover] Jennie, whether it is Denethor or Faramir, someone has to keep things going on a daily basis. That means you can&#8217;t always be nice and polite, especially during the years prior to the Ring War, when Gondor and Mordor were in a sort of Cold War.<br />
 [Puma] but the valar directly took part in the war of the ring<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Okay<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: does that make them good stewards, or poor ones?<br />
 [Demetria] how?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, the Valar did, but I suspect that was why their hand on M-E became lighter with time. They decided to let the younger race, Men, take over<br />
 [Erkenbrand] good stewards<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say good ones because they were able to delegate their power.<br />
 [Demosthenes] If Sauron is the example of too much control, are the Valar the example of too little?<br />
 [Darkover] Directly, Puma?<br />
 [Puma] sam called to varda&#8230;..his prayer was answered<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe. You could argue that Men could use some help. Of course, the Valar sent the Istari.<br />
 [Puma] ulmo sent dreams to faramir and boromir<br />
 [Erkenbrand] they achieved the same results but allowed the people of middle earth to come to them by themselves<br />
 [Puma] manwe sent wind at several strategic times<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If you notice in Tolkien, it&#8217;s the people who have a problem with letting go of power who end up becoming evil or corrupted.<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe the Valar continued to help, but in a more subtle way, such as dreams, eagles, etc.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Oh, yeah. Forgot about the dreams<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: that&#8217;s quite true.<br />
 [Demetria] the dreams were the most influence at the time of men<br />
 [Puma] so the valar sent aid .but the people had to still help themselves<br />
 [Darkover] That isn&#8217;t necessarily a bad thing, that people help themselves.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Which is how it should be when dealing with free people, Puma.<br />
 [Puma] correct<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Free will = free choice, good or bad.<br />
 [Puma] but the valar are not absent in taking action.they did<br />
 [Darkover] Only when the odds were overwhelming, such as fighting against Morgoth or Sauron, should the Valar get involved on a large scale, IMO<br />
 [sauronswife] I have such a love/hate relationship with the free-ch9oice concept. :S<br />
 [Erkenbrand] if sa<br />
 * Baumbart (Mibbit@torn-C7CD8565.web.vodafone.de) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)<br />
 [Goldberry] the valar didn&#8217;t get too involved with morgoth though<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, Sauron&#8217;s Wife woul,d<br />
 [Demosthenes] Which brings me to another thought &#8230; are the elves in a way early stewards for men? And is it their inability to surrender what is entrusted that creates a lot of problems later? (celbrimbor + rings = big mess)<br />
 [Demetria] Elrond was also a steward, he made sure the line of kings was protected in the north<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I think that people need to have free choice, even if thee choice they make is bad<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d agree on Moroth, Darkover, because he was a Vala and the people of ME could not destroy him themselves.<br />
 [Darkover] They did eventually dispatch Morgoth into the Void, Goldberry<br />
 [Puma] elrond was a steward&#8230;..of knowledge&#8230;.he kept records of the past.so other people could learn&#8230;..that had import<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Chris, that was my point<br />
 [Darkover] only you said it more succinctly<br />
 [Goldberry] eventually<br />
 [ChristineGolden] However, Sauron (who was once Morgoth&#8217;s steward) was a different matter.<br />
 [Puma] sauron was never a steward to morgoth<br />
 [Demetria] yes, and he watched over the succession in the north, for example the sword<br />
 [sauronswife] Finrod = Steward for Men. Not sure about other elves (esp Noldor) save Elrond..<br />
 [Puma] at best sauron was a top aid.morgoth shared power with none<br />
 [Darkover] Sauron wasn&#8217;t as strong, but he was still a Maia or the like. That is why the Valar still showed their concern by sending the Istari to help<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Wasn&#8217;t he Morgoth&#8217;s underling, Puma?  I seem to recall he was Morgoth&#8217;s Lieutenant.<br />
 [sauronswife] he was.<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Puma! That was the point I was trying to make earlier, about why there are no &#8220;evil&#8221; stewards as such&#8211;evildoers don&#8217;t trust their underlings, with good reason.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] most of the elves do act as Stewards to the men, that may be because they are wise enough to know that they (the elves) will not be as influential in saurons downfall<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Ok, I see what you mean, Puma: I agree<br />
 [Puma] yes.jennie.quite correct&#8230;but not a steward<br />
 [Demetria] Elrond was the only elf entrusted with the ring and sword for Gondor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sorry? Who&#8217;s not a steward?<br />
 [Darkover] Would anyone call Cirdan a steward? I would.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] does a Steward have to have power?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I don&#8217;t consider the elves to be stewards.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t remember what I&#8217;d said. lol<br />
 [Puma] i would also Darkover.excellent point<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Erkenbrand, otherwise, what is he steward of?<br />
 [sauronswife] The evil powers do have to entrust /something/ to their underlings otherwise they&#8217;d have to do it all themselves.<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Puma<br />
 [ChristineGolden] lol, I do that, too, Jennie.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: i think we agreed that generally this is the case. There must be a resposibility over something.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I&#8217;d call Cirdan a ruler, Darkover.<br />
 [Puma] cirdan.gave narya to gandalf.as he.being the most foresighted of all in middle earth.knew gandalf would take care of middle earth<br />
 [sauronswife] A resposniblity the steward agrees to take up or one they end up with?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Sauronswife, but that doesn&#8217;t mean the main baddies are going to let their underlings have very much power. Why do you think Saruman wanted the Ring? and why do you think Sauron didn&#8217;t want him to have it?<br />
 [Erkenbrand] cirdan was given one of the elvish rings and so was sort of entrusted with stewardship&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Whether this responsibility has to be explicit or can be left implied is probably what we&#8217;re really mulling over.<br />
 [Demetria] because Sauron knew what he did do his boss<br />
 [Goldberry] was melian a steward of doriath?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially, the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one&#8217;s care<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron never betrayed Morgoth that I know<br />
 [Puma] yes<br />
 [Goldberry] she protected it<br />
 [Darkover] I don&#8217;t see why it necessarily has to be explicit, just that they have power<br />
 [Puma] good one goldberry<br />
 [Gondhir] also, I would say that no, she was not<br />
 [Darkover] No, Goldberry, I think Melian was co-ruler<br />
 [Goldberry] thanks, puma<br />
 [Gondhir] any more than Galadriel was Steward of Lothlorien<br />
 [Darkover] not the same as a steward<br />
 [sauronswife] lol Haha Demetria. I still consider Sauron has always been a steward of Morgoth&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: I tend to agree. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck &#8230; well, we can argue &#8230; but really it&#8217;s a duck.<br />
 [Demetria] no, but he had enough power and knowledge to take over where Morgoth left off<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, a steward must be delegated power by someone above him/her.<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes<br />
 [Gondhir] (I do think that Galadriel is mostly a powered-down literary clone of Melian)<br />
 * sauronswife nods to Demosthenes.<br />
 [Demosthenes] And we should just admit it.<br />
 [Puma] sauron was a piker compared to morgoth<br />
 [Puma] he never had a fraction of the power<br />
 [sauronswife] He did continue Morgoth&#8217;s destructive designs though&#8230;<br />
 [Darkover] he was still formidable enough, though, Puma<br />
 [Puma] not in the same way.sauron wanted to rule the people<br />
 [Puma] morgoth wanted them all dead<br />
 [Demetria] Sauron wanted to rule them<br />
 [Gondhir] indeed<br />
 [marco] saurons evil was more direct than morgoths, morgoths was more spreaded out<br />
 [Goldberry] morgoth wanted to corrupt and destroy ME<br />
 [Goldberry] destroy the goodness<br />
 [Gondhir] I think Morgoth originallly wanted to rule everything<br />
 [Demosthenes] To enslave them all. That&#8217;s what Gandalf says about hobbits and the shire at the beginning of LOTR.<br />
 [Puma] morgoths ring was all of arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And he liked sparklies<br />
 [Gondhir] but when he couldn&#8217;t<br />
 [Gondhir] he settled for just destroying everything<br />
 [Gondhir] &#8220;If I can&#8217;t have it, no one can&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] and by &#8220;it&#8221;, I mean EVERYTHING<br />
 [Darkover] I think both Morgoth and Sauron wanted to corrupt and destroy M-E and everything in it. The difference in them lies only in scale, not in malice.<br />
 [sauronswife] Good piont there Gondhir.<br />
 [Demosthenes] He does not need you &#8211; he has many more useful servants &#8211; but he won?t forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge.?<br />
 [marco] sauron was kinda or smart than morgoth in a way<br />
 [Goldberry] lol gondhir<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron didn&#8217;t want to DESTROY things<br />
 [Gondhir] he wanted to CONTROL them<br />
 [Puma] sauron&#8217;s thoughts were not all evil at 1st.they only became so later<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Gondhir, he gladly would have destroyed anyone or anything in his way<br />
 [Gondhir] well, yes<br />
 [Gondhir] he didn&#8217;t MIND destroying things<br />
 [Gondhir] but it was a means to an end<br />
 [Gondhir] for Morgoth, the destruction WAS the end<br />
 [Puma] yes Gond!!!!<br />
 [Darkover] and if the control is crushing, is there such a big difference between destruction and utter enslavement?<br />
 [Darkover] Seems to me we&#8217;re splitting hairs. Both were terrible villains.<br />
 [sauronswife] I need to reread Silm and look at this whole Morgoth-destroying-everything idea. ANd yes huge differnce between destruction and enslavement.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: you can&#8217;t rule something you&#8217;ve destroyed?<br />
 [Gondhir] no one&#8217;s saying that Sauron was GOOD<br />
 [Goldberry] true darkover<br />
 [TolkienGirl] Sauron is the Illusive Man of Middle Earth.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, I wouldn&#8217;t invite either of them to a party twice.<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Jennie.<br />
 [Goldberry] lol jennie<br />
 [Gondhir] although his motives may have been good-ish in the beginning<br />
 [Erkenbrand] would anyone say that whilst theoden was unable to rule, eomer and theodred acted as stewards of rohan<br />
 [Demosthenes] You can rule an orc &#8230; but if you lop the head off an elf, it doesn&#8217;t do what you want anymore.<br />
 [Gondhir] lots of people have felt that a &#8220;strong man&#8221; in control is preferable to chaos<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sssure, Erkenbrand.<br />
 [Darkover] Not sure I would agree, Sauronswife. Anyway, both destruction and enslavement are miserable fates.<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: Yes, but a dead elf is better than a rebellious elf. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Puma] think of morgoths power.by being in the body of arda&#8230;and both elves and mens bodies came from arda&#8230;..he tainted tham all<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No, I&#8217;d say that Grima was Theoden&#8217;s steward, Gondhir.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] lol dems<br />
 [ChristineGolden] He had the power to issue orders; he was in charge of the King&#8217;s possessions (e.g., his sword), etc.<br />
 [Puma] grima was only theodens steward from 3014 on.when he sort of gave the orders<br />
 [marco] morgoth risked too much of his power in trying to be so powerful<br />
 [Darkover] Actually, to get back to your question, Demosthenes, I think both Morgoth and Sauron&#8211;and all their ilk&#8211;wanted to rule/dominate all life, everything, completely. But if they couldn&#8217;t do that, then they wanted it destroyed.<br />
 [Puma] b4 that just an advisor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But arguably Theodred and Eomer went riding around taking care of Rohan when nobody else was.<br />
 [Darkover] as Frodo once said, speaking of Sauron; &#8220;What does he not hate?&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Sauron ever got to the level of nihilism that Morgoth did<br />
 [Gondhir] hey may have gotten to that point in time<br />
 [Puma] yes jennie.both did it against orders<br />
 [Demosthenes] He ordered Eomer imprisoned. He was the voice of the king. Very like Mouth of Sauron, in fact.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] grima may have been a steward of Théoden, just not a steward of rohan<br />
 [Darkover] Again, Gondhir, just a matter of scale or degree, not intent.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] True, Puma, but we&#8217;re not given any details of Theoden and Theodred&#8217;s relationship and Eomer didn&#8217;t have any real power as I recall.<br />
 [Gondhir] I think it IS a matter of intent<br />
 [Gondhir] Sauron intended to rule.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Was he also Saruman&#8217;s steward? Now, that&#8217;s more debatable.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] marshall of the mark?<br />
 [Gondhir] Morgoth intended to destroy<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] The question is whether Grima Wormtongue&#8217;s orders were legit, or whether Théoden&#8217;s were when he was in his depressive state<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Theoden was king; that made Grima steward of Rohan.<br />
 [Puma] the battles of the fords of isen in UT give a good account of events in rohan jennie<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he didn&#8217;t act like a steward should though<br />
 [Gondhir] being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward<br />
 [Demetria] Theoden&#8217;s mind was taken over by Sauruman, therefore Grima was actually his steward<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Like we said earlier, Erkenbrand, there&#8217;s good stewards and bad ones.<br />
 [Gondhir] Theoden&#8217;s mind was NOT taken over by Saruman in the book<br />
 [Darkover] I seem not to be making myself clear, Gondhir. My point that I&#8217;m trying to make, in my rambling way, is that both Morgoth and Sauron would have loved to dominate everything in M-E, and probably the universe.<br />
 [Puma] pelendur of gondor can be conceived of as a bad steward<br />
 [Darkover] Morgoth was stronger, but in terms of what they both wished to do, both Morgoth and Sauron were intensely evil.<br />
 [Goldberry] grima was seeing to sarumans orders, so maybe that makes him saruman&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I would say that Grima was Théoden&#8217;s steward. Eomer and Theodred were Rohan&#8217;s.<br />
 [Demetria] thank you Goldberry<br />
 [Puma] saruman did not share power either<br />
 [Gondhir] following someone&#8217;s orders does not make one a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: the wanted ultimate control. boss-ship, not stewardship.<br />
 [Gondhir] otherwise everyone in Gondor would be a steward of Gondor<br />
 [Darkover] I would call Grima Saruman&#8217;s spy, and Theoden&#8217;s advisor, but not a steward.<br />
 [Darkover] Right, Demosthenes<br />
 [ChristineGolden] That would make him a double agent, but he wasn&#8217;t Saruman&#8217;s steward because Grima had nothing to do with the operations of Isengard.<br />
 [Goldberry] demetria: <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Good observation, Chris<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, again, we probably don&#8217;t know about the day-to-day<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Oh, sorry. Isengard. No<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I thought you meant Rohan<br />
 [Erkenbrand] but grima did have a hand in some of srumans overall plans (shire)<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] perhaps as an agent. Doesn&#8217;t make him a steward<br />
 [Darkover] In a very slave-like way, Erkenbrand. Hardly a steward.<br />
 [Demosthenes] An automaton?<br />
 [selinah] hi<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Hi selinah<br />
 [Darkover] Hi, Selinah<br />
 [Demosthenes] heya selinah<br />
 [Gondhir] movieTheoden was arguably an automaton of Saruman <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demetria] hello selinah<br />
 [Erkenbrand] I am not suggesting that he is a steward, he was bullied into what he did<br />
 [Gondhir] can&#8217;t think of any automatons in the book, though<br />
 [Erkenbrand] hi selinah<br />
 [Puma] isildur can be seen as a flawed steward of middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: the Nazgul.<br />
 [Gondhir] the Nazgul took orders<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Puma<br />
 [Gondhir] probably the closest to an automaton<br />
 [Erkenbrand] isildur tried to stop saruman<br />
 [Erkenbrand] sauron<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I disagree, Puma, because Isildur&#8217;s power was limited to Gondor.<br />
 [Gondhir] but they do seem to have had to &#8220;report in&#8221; from time to time<br />
 [Puma] no<br />
 [Puma] isildur also ruled arnor<br />
 [Demetria] Isildur was a king in his own right<br />
 [Gondhir] Isildur&#8217;s &#8220;power&#8221; extended beyond Gondor but I think including all of ME is stretching it<br />
 [Gondhir] there&#8217;s a lot more to ME than Gondor and Arnor<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Still. He was arguably flawed<br />
 [Gondhir] and he doesn&#8217;t seem to have been anyone&#8217;s steward<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Wherever he was in charge<br />
 [Puma] yes&#8230;..but by taking the ring.that involved all of middle earth<br />
 [Erkenbrand] It may have been limited to gondor but he did try to act as a steward to most of ME<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Is a king a steward?<br />
 [Gondhir] although it&#8217;s possible that his father Elendil entrusted some things to him in a steward-like way<br />
 [Gondhir] but I dont&#8217; think we&#8217;re told that<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oops, sorry, yes Isildur also ruled Arnor, but he certainly didn&#8217;t control the elven or dwarf kingdoms.<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: if you want to get into divine mandates and such &#8230; yes?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] That was my thought<br />
 [Puma] we are talking stewards&#8230;not Stewards<br />
 [Demosthenes] If not, probably not?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think that&#8217;s stretching it.<br />
 * sauronswife needs Merlin to tell her when the capital S is used&#8230; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [TolkienGirl] Merlin?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think when it&#8217;s a title<br />
 [sauronswife] Chat screen-reader&#8230;.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] When you are formally appointed the Steward of Gondor &#8482;<br />
 [Puma] isildur took the ring&#8230;..to be a steward of it.with good intent&#8230;.but we all saw how it turned out<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think a steward must have specific duties/responsibilities and be answerable to a higher authority.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Isildur does seem to have been the especial guardian of the white tree though.<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think Isildur even realized it had &#8220;power&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] A very specific sort of stewardship.<br />
 [Puma] very true Demz!!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] What if that higher authority is the will of the people?<br />
 [Gondhir] he seems to have thought it was just a pretty ring that he took from Sauron<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not that you vote for kings . . .<br />
 [Darkover] But can&#8217;t that responsibility be implied, Chris?<br />
 [Gondhir] as &#8220;wereguild&#8221;<br />
 [Erkenbrand] if isildur tried to be a steward of the ring, could you not suggest that Gollum also tried to be a steward of the ring<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;m not sure what you mean, Darkover &#8211; in what context?<br />
 [Darkover] No way, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Puma] isildur when he took the ring.knew what it was<br />
 [Goldberry] no<br />
 [sauronswife] Yeah&#8230; He promised not to let Sauron have it.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think Gollum really knew what it was.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] yeah<br />
 [sauronswife] At that POINT anyway&#8230; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] At least while he had it<br />
 [Erkenbrand] he still tried to care for it and protect it<br />
 [Gondhir] Puma: Maybe, but his letter (that Gandalf later found) makes no mention of any power it may have had. He doesn&#8217;t seem to have wanted to dominate the other bearers of Rings of Power (the primary purpose of the One Ring).<br />
 [sauronswife] See this whole Steward thing seems to be time-limited.. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Darkover] Well, Denethor&#8211;we&#8217;re back to him&#8211;for example, Chris. He was the umpteenth in a line or ruling stewards. By then, his power and authority were pretty clear, but it was assumed, until Aragorn&#8217;s return, that the King was long gone.<br />
 [Goldberry] gollum wanted it for himself<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Was Morgoth the steward of the silmarils in his crown? Nah<br />
 [Darkover] Thus, implied power, but definitely power<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Hmmm &#8230; the fate of Numenor might imply that the kings of Numenor, Arnor and Gondor had some sort of answerability to the lord of the west.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] He sure tried to keep &#8216;em, but that doesn&#8217;t make him a steward, does it?<br />
 [Demosthenes] And thus in a sense power IS delegated to them.<br />
 [sauronswife] But the Silmarils weren&#8217;t an evil object. Melkor wasn&#8217;t trying to keep them from a being who would when having them back use them to take over the world.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Oh, ok.  No, because the original power was bestowed on Denethor&#8217;s ancestors.  Time may have expanded those powers, but it was a formal transfer of power.<br />
 [Gondhir] this can arguably all go back to Divine Right of Kings<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: yes. it&#8217;s all very wrapped up in that.<br />
 [sauronswife] Why I feel Gollum is a cap-Steward, Melkor with the SIlm would not be.<br />
 [Gondhir] where all kings are divinely appointed by God to rule in His name<br />
 [Goldberry] we&#8217;re getting into the difference between stewarding &#038; ruling over I think<br />
 [sauronswife] Elros&#8230;.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Being held accountable for your actions and choices isn&#8217;t the same thing as being given specific duties, Demosthenes.<br />
 [Darkover] But you said that a true steward had to answer to somebody. I hope I&#8217;m not nitpicking, but with the King long gone, as everyone assumed, who would Denethor and his predecessors have to answer to, Chris?<br />
 [Gondhir] God is the Ultimate King of the World<br />
 [Goldberry] what is the difference?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a firm answer to any of this<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but any ruler or leader of any kind who claimed to answer only to God, would make me very nervous.<br />
 [Gondhir] especially since everyone here seems to be using a different definition of &#8220;steward&#8221; <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] right<br />
 [Goldberry] lol gondhir<br />
 [Gondhir] Darkover: Maybe, but that&#8217;s because you don&#8217;t buy the theory.<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: i do think it&#8217;s quite shaded and not you&#8217;re in, or you&#8217;re out.<br />
 [Erkenbrand] as anyone actually got a dictionary definition of steward?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] No one, which is one of the reasons Denethor fell from reason into power-madness, Darkover.  I believe there&#8217;s a quote on that between him and Gandalf.<br />
 [Gondhir] there have historically been lots of people who DID<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Someone already posted one high above, Erkenbrand<br />
 [Gondhir] most of the major kingdoms of Europe were based around the concept, at least for a while<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Something about Denethor wanting things to stay as they had and he didn&#8217;t need no stinkin&#8217; king to return.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Chris, was that you? Still have it?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, Gondhir, but we&#8217;re talking about Tolkien&#8217;s M-E<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I do, Jen.<br />
 [Gondhir] yes, that&#8217;s true<br />
 [Puma] i dont think denethor had power madness&#8230;.he went mad.but did not abuse power&#8230;.he just decided to kill himself etc<br />
 [Gondhir] and the Kings of Numenor, Gondor, and Arnor seem to have been operating under that theory<br />
 [Gondhir] and in their case, it seems to have been TRUE<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who manages another&#8217;s property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as the agent of another or others.<br />
 [Demosthenes] 2.<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing the servants, etc.<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Chris, yes, I remember that<br />
 [Demosthenes] an employee who has charge of the table, wine, servants, etc., in a club, restaurant, or the like.<br />
 [Demosthenes] 4.<br />
 [Demosthenes] a person who attends to the domestic concerns of persons on board a vessel, as in overseeing maids and waiters.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Steward: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something, especially the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one&#8217;s care/<br />
 [Demosthenes] stolen from dictionary.com<br />
 [Goldberry] so caring for, not ruling over<br />
 [Darkover] Well, Puma, arguably Denethor was abusing his power when he tried to immolate Faramir as well as himself.<br />
 [Puma] but you can both care for and rule in certain instances<br />
 [Gondhir] the position of Steward of Gondor seems to have originally begun as simply the manager of the king&#8217;s household<br />
 [Goldberry] true, puma<br />
 [Gondhir] like, historically, a lot of other important roles<br />
 [Demosthenes] Gondhir: seems like that to me, too.<br />
 [Gondhir] chamberlain&#8217;s originally actually dressed the ruler<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] So, by Chris&#8217;s definition, you have the responsibility to manage something &#8220;entrusted to one&#8217;s care.&#8221; It implies you are answerable to someone. But doesn&#8217;t specify that<br />
 [Gondhir] chamberlains<br />
 [Darkover] Until Mardil the Good Steward, anyway, Gondhir<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It could simply be that you are answerable to the people<br />
 [Gondhir] marshals and constables took care of the horses<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] And so Kings could be Stewards<br />
 [Gondhir] etc.<br />
 [marco] back<br />
 [Goldberry] wb marco<br />
 [Erkenbrand] since Grima didn&#8217;t responsibly manage anything, he is still a &#8220;Steward&#8221;<br />
 [marco] thanks<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Well, except for the Shire, I don&#8217;t believe they held elections in ME, Jennie.  Not trying to be a smart ass-et, just saying that democracy wasn&#8217;t a big thing in ME.<br />
 [Gondhir] again, being a BAD steward does not mean that one is NOT a steward<br />
 [Darkover] True, Jennie. &#8220;The people&#8221; didn&#8217;t vote.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Nnnno . . . . as I said, you don&#8217;t vote for kings. I agree.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But you are responsible to them<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] With great power, and all that<br />
 [Puma] well&#8230;the people sort of did vote for aragorn<br />
 [Darkover] And Faramir, as last ruling Steward, did ask the people of Minas Tirith if Aragorn/Elessar should enter and rule there.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Without support of the people, kings can be deposed<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say a king is responsible for his people, but not to them.<br />
 [Darkover] Everyone cheered, and he went on in.<br />
 [lunarising] wait what? how did they vote for Aragorn?<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think that was part of the ceremony, Darkover<br />
 [Goldberry] well, it&#8217;s getting late, but it&#8217;s been great <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Gondhir] you could argue that the (or a) purpose of the President of the United states is to responsibly manage the government of the United States. And, regardless of your politics, there have undoubtedly been some Presidents who you would think failed to do that. But that doesn&#8217;t mean they weren&#8217;t President.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Bye Goldberry<br />
 [ChristineGolden] they cheered, luna.<br />
 [Goldberry] cya<br />
 [Darkover] Sure, but in principle, an important part.<br />
 [Puma] no official vote..but by acclaimation<br />
 [Demosthenes] lunarising: there was a popular acclaim thing after the Cormallen. A bit like ayes and nays in Parliament.<br />
 [Darkover] bye, Goldberry<br />
 [lunarising] ah thanks Chris<br />
 [ChristineGolden] np<br />
 [lunarising] forgot that part, thanks too Dem<br />
 [Demosthenes] In the Westminster system you can actually have a vote (and bills passing) without a formal Division.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Kings can be deposed; Presidents impeached. It happens<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Not often in ME, of course<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Does anyone really think Aragorn would have just rode away if they people hadn&#8217;t cheered?  &#8220;Okay, I&#8217;m outta here.&#8221;<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: the master of lake-town.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Saruman was kicked out of Isengard, but not by subjects<br />
 [Puma] yes.laketown did vote!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Maybe<br />
 [Puma] good one Demz!!!!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Dems<br />
 [Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: he might have.<br />
 [Gondhir] Laketown seems to have operated a lot like a medieval German township<br />
 [lunarising] so could he be considered a steward?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Of course, he seems to be the quintessential politician.<br />
 [lunarising] he was elected like Sam as mayor of the shire<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yes, he was a really sucky steward of Laketown<br />
 [Darkover] Happily, the people did welcome him. Under the circumstances, no reason why they shouldn&#8217;t have.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But people probably didn&#8217;t realize how bad until Smaug came<br />
 [Darkover] Aragorn at Minas Tirith, I mean<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think the master of lake-town is a steward. A bad one, or a corrupt one, but still a steward.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Do we know that the Master of Laketown was elected by the people?<br />
 [Gondhir] People probably didn&#8217;t realize how bad until he absconded with the treasury&#8230;<br />
 [Gondhir] ChristineGolden: Probably by a subset of the people<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] It doesn&#8217;t appear to have been a hereditary position<br />
 [Gondhir] I doubt &#8220;voter&#8221; included all adult persons<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Well, there&#8217;s that, Gondhir. (re: treasury)<br />
 [Demosthenes] If i recall correctly, it does mention that the master was elected.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Whether that means universal suffragacy &#8230; who knows?<br />
 [Puma] it does Demz<br />
 [ChristineGolden] More likely, the town leaders were a council and the Master chosen from among them.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] the town leaders formed a council&#8230;<br />
 [Demosthenes] puma: it could have been limited to property owners.<br />
 [Puma] at times the steward of gondor was chosen by a council.not all stewards had sons<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] On a pier-built lake, what constitutes &#8220;property&#8221;?<br />
 [Gondhir] a house?<br />
 [Gondhir] business?<br />
 [Demosthenes] jennie: anything that floats. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] shops, homes, businesses.<br />
 [Gondhir] gold?<br />
 [Darkover] your own boat, probably<br />
 [Gondhir] (people?)<br />
 [ChristineGolden] boats, money, assets.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Gold doesn&#8217;t float<br />
 [Puma] bard has his arrow<br />
 [Darkover] we seem to have drifted a bit, no pun intended, from stewardship<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] very small rocks<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] churches<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Does anyone think the Noldor were stewards?  Because I don&#8217;t.<br />
 [Darkover] I don&#8217;t, either.<br />
 [lunarising] no but I think Galadriel sort of became one when she got to Lorien<br />
 [Puma] no.the noldor were not stewards<br />
 [sauronswife] If they were (still trying to decide on the definition of steward or cap-Steward) they would have been horrendous ones.<br />
 [Demosthenes] I think they had an implied obligation to care for middle-earth for their successors.<br />
 [Darkover] I think Galadriel was the ruler of Lorien, not a steward<br />
 [Demosthenes] Arguably, they were pretty bad at it.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] From whom, Demosthenes?  They revolted against the Valar, so who did they represent?<br />
 [Puma] galadriel was specifically not a queen.nor celeborn king<br />
 [Darkover] If you want to look at it that way, Demosthenes, probably everyone who lives in M-E does. Doesn&#8217;t make us all stewards, though.<br />
 [Demosthenes] From Eru. Or from the Music of the Ainur&#8230;<br />
 [Puma] they  both took over a stewardship of lorien&#8230;..after amroth left<br />
 [Puma] to preserve it<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I think they ruled it, Puma.  Didn&#8217;t the Fellowship have to be taken before Galadriel and Celeborn when they were captured to have their fate determined?<br />
 [Darkover] Yes, they did. Chris is right.<br />
 [Puma] not for their fate<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Lord and Lady the same as King and Queen?<br />
 [Gondhir] Celeborn &#038; Galadriel were still not Amroth&#8217;s Stewards<br />
 [Demetria] well supper time for me, it was lovely meeting you all, and enjoyed the discussion<br />
 [Puma] not amroths steward<br />
 [Gondhir] there was no fiction that he was going to ever come back<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Bye Demetria<br />
 [Darkover] Galadriel and Celeborn may not have used the title of Queen and King, but they had as much power<br />
 [Puma] but steward imo can mean to preserve<br />
 [Gondhir] or that there was anyone they were answerable to<br />
 [Darkover] and as Gondhir said, Amroth was never coming back<br />
 [Demosthenes] If the elves must inevitably depart to Aman, then &#8230; Middle-earth isn&#8217;t theirs forever. Thus they have a (moral) obligation to take care of things in the meantime. A stewardship of sorts.<br />
 [Gondhir] unless you go back tot he whole &#8220;Divine Right&#8221; thing<br />
 [Darkover] and that was something in canon that Tolkien never really cleared up, anyway<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;d say the difference isn&#8217;t worth arguing, Jennie.  They held the power of life and death over the Fellowship, whether you call them lord an lady or king and queen.<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I agree<br />
 [Puma] elves dont have to go to aman.they can remain.they have free choice<br />
 [Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO, that makes the definition of stewardship so broad as to be almost meaningless<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Also the power to protect or neglect Lothlorien<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, there has to be limits on a word&#8217;s definition or it has no value.<br />
 [Puma] in one way the noldor can be considered stewards&#8230;by keeping morgoth bottled up in the north&#8230;&#8230;they saved much of arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] They can be fuzzy limits<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: sometimes I think that&#8217;s the implication of Gandalf&#8217;s line to Denethor.<br />
 [Gondhir] I don&#8217;t think the Noldor were doing that for that reason<br />
 [Darkover] Thank you, Chris<br />
 [marco] noldor were selfish<br />
 [Puma] i dont either.but it was the result<br />
 [Gondhir] Demosthenes: I think that Gandalf was ACTUALLY APPOINTED to be the Valar&#8217;s Vicar in Middle Earth<br />
 [Gondhir] and the Valar were actually appointed to be Eru&#8217;s Vicar in Arda<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] vicar. lol<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Results can be accidental.  I think the Noldor were trying to protect their own kingdoms, their own lands.<br />
 [Darkover] And Demosthenes, Gandalf was indeed a steward, but he was given a specific assignment by the Valar, which he willingly accepted. He was not just a person born in M-E<br />
 [Demosthenes] gond: yah, but &#8230; his statement feels much broader than &#8220;i was sent by blah blah blah&#8221;<br />
 [Darkover] Maybe. Again, we seem to be splitting hairs.<br />
 [Puma] splitting hairs is what we do here.lol<br />
 [Gondhir] Jenniearcheo: &#8220;Vicar&#8221; doesn&#8217;t just (or originally) mean something like &#8220;priest or preacher&#8221;<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Still conjures Dawn French in my mind. Sorry<br />
 [Gondhir] it&#8217;s related to VICARious<br />
 [ChristineGolden] me, too, Jen.<br />
 [Gondhir] religious vicars were originally &#8220;bishop&#8217;s vicars&#8221;<br />
 [Gondhir] who took care of the religious duties the bishop couldn&#8217;t be bothered to do<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I&#8217;m not arguing with you. Just snickering at the same time.<br />
 [Gondhir] well, I&#8217;m just saying, in case other people didn&#8217;t realize <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Demosthenes] Do we have any other examples we haven&#8217;t covered? Did we touch on Fangorn/Treebeard?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] I think you explained it pretty well<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Briefly. And Tom<br />
 [Darkover] We seem to have covered everything.<br />
 [Puma] treebeard was a guardian of the forests.or in 3rd age fangorn forest<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Okay, the Valar were Eru&#8217;s stewards and the Istari were the Valar&#8217;s stewards.  Denethor&#8217;s line was the stewards of Gondor &#8211; was the line of Eorl stewards for the kings of Gondor?<br />
 [lunarising] what about Ciridan and the grey havens?<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Only to point out that neither seemed to have anyone obvious to answer to<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] But who demonstrably took care of an area<br />
 [Darkover] I mentioned that, lunarising. I thought he might qualify as a steward, but no one here seemed to agree.<br />
 [Demosthenes] lunarising: cirdan seems to have had a responsiblity over the straight path.<br />
 [Puma] i agree Darkover<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Yes, I think the ents were stewards created by Yavanna to guard her forests against Aule&#8217;s dwarves, etc.<br />
 [lunarising] oh &#8211; ok that might have been when I fell offline<br />
 [Darkover] Okay, one person does, then. Thank you, puma <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Puma] cirdan gave narya to gandalf&#8230;..<br />
 [lunarising] but I&#8217;d agree with you<br />
 [Puma] by giving the ring.he was acting as a steward to middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] I guess you could say Cirdan is the Ferryman. He stewards folks across the ocean.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I would call Cirdan a guardian, Darkover.  I know, hair-splitting, but he assumes the responsibility himself.  He isn&#8217;t appointed to the task that we know of.<br />
 [Puma] cirdan was much more than that<br />
 [lunarising] he&#8217;s a small steward but still a steward<br />
 [Puma] he was apponted Christine.its in peoples of middle earth<br />
 [Demosthenes] Like Tom B stewards his tiny little patch.<br />
 [lunarising] yep<br />
 [Darkover] Actually, I don&#8217;t recall how Cirdan came to be in the position he occupied.<br />
 [ChristineGolden] If you don&#8217;t mind, by whom, Puma?<br />
 [sauronswife] Visions from the Valar I believe&#8230;?<br />
 [Puma] jrr wore a late essay on cirdan.explaining his place<br />
 [Demosthenes] Darkover: last man standing. Err, elf.<br />
 [Darkover] Hi, Alex, which is a lot easier to spell<br />
 [Darkover] lol, Demosthenes<br />
 [Puma] wrote<br />
 [Puma] by the valar<br />
 [Alex] lolz<br />
 [ChristineGolden] Thanks.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Sorry, Alex.You&#8217;ve sort of come in at the end of a long conversation.<br />
 [Alex] lol<br />
 [Alex] dont i always<br />
 [Puma] its there&#8230;..i can get quote anytime you ask<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Be here next week an hour and a half earlier than now.<br />
 [Demosthenes] Final arguments then? Last chance. <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [ChristineGolden] Then, yes, I&#8217;d say Cirdan was a steward, but I don&#8217;t know of anyone appointing Bombadil.<br />
 [Puma] okie<br />
 [ChristineGolden] So, I&#8217;d call him a guardian, not a steward.<br />
 [sauronswife] I feel like I&#8217;m FORGETTING someone but meh.<br />
 [Alex] yes ma&#8217;am!<br />
 [Puma] great job Demz.this was a fun topic<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Thanks, Demosthenes<br />
 [ChristineGolden] I&#8217;ll take you up on that, Puma.  <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
 [sauronswife] This topic has given me a headache. lol<br />
 [Darkover] I think we covered about everybody. And we all had a lot to say. Exceptionally good discussion!<br />
 [Jenniearcheo] Yes, thanks all.<br />
 [lunarising] yes indeed<br />
 [ChristineGolden] old man willow<br />
 [lunarising] thanks as always Demosthenes<br />
<b>Session Close: Sun Jul 07 09:42:01 2013</b></p>
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