And remember, tomorrow (May 25 at 6pm EDT) we’ll be discussing Isildur and examining to what extent he was the shaper of the Third Age.

Session Start: Sun May 19 07:16:27 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic for today: The king of the golden hall | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok. We should probably start. People can catch up when they wander in.
[Demosthenes] “They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night. When at last they halted and dismounted, even Aragorn was stiff and weary. Gandalf only allowed them a few hours’ rest. ”
[Demosthenes] Gandalf sees a need for haste.
[Alatariel] So that tells us…
[Alatariel] Gandalf is kinda being mean
[Jenniearcheo] He knows sommat
[Jenniearcheo] about Saruman’s plans
[Raurenkili] we should start with: Baldor son of Brego built the Golden hall
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf is just being urgent
[timlotr] he seems to know what he is doing
[Anameleth] Mean?
[Raurenkili] *the
[Demosthenes] jennie: and it seems that Grima knows something when they arrive at Edoras also.
[Myra] I think that gandalf is more worried about what is out there, i.e. black riders and saruman’s orcs.
[Alatariel] And saruman
[Raurenkili] Yes, Gandalf knew they couldn’t lose any time
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Theoden will have heard of it. Maybe your coming was not wholly unlooked-for. It is but two nights ago that Wormtongue came to us and said that by the will of Th?en no stranger should pass these gates.’
[timlotr] hmm
[PippinForTheWin] I think Gandalf never forgot how Sam and Frodo were in peril every second of their journey. There wasn’t any time to rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, as he’s forbidden Eomer to attack the orc party, but advised Théoden to have them ride off to the west instead.
[Demosthenes] Is that because of Eomer’s report about the man the elf and the dwarf? Or is it because Grima knows something about Gandalf?
[Jenniearcheo] Ah, yes. That, too
[Alatariel] So…that tells us Grima has…comepletely taken over theodens mind
[Jenniearcheo] Good question
[Jenniearcheo] Eomer hasn’t been back to Edoras, has he?
[Demosthenes] jennie: it’s as bit of a chessmatch. and the board is rohan, it seems.
[timlotr] Wormtounge having complete control, yeah, makes sense, don’t think he has jennie
[Darkover] I thought Eomer was back by this time, but had been imprisoned.
[timlotr] been a while since I read the book
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. A bit more subtle than they had to make it on the film
[Demosthenes] Darkover: yes, he had, and was.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, okay
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] I know he’s there at the end, as Hama sends for hjim
[Demosthenes] Do you think that the guard(s) agreed with Theoden/Wormtongue’s policy?
[Darkover] For threatening death to Grima, as I recall.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t know how far he’d had to come
[Demosthenes] A troubled look came into the guard’s eyes. ‘Of ?mer I have naught to say,’ he answered. ‘If what you tell me is truth, then doubtless Th?en will have heard of it.
[Jenniearcheo] The outer guards?
[Blairwhitaker] I love the books just coz of all the extra content up to the film
[timlotr] I don’t think the guards agreed
[Darkover] I doubt very much if the guards agreed with Wormtongue. That was PJ’s slant, IMO
[timlotr] but they had to follow or receive the same punishment as Eomer
[Demosthenes] But they followed his orders?
[PippinForTheWin] well dems they had to follow the king’s orders, yes?
[Darkover] Yes, because Theoden allowed Grima so much power, I think
[Jenniearcheo] They are probably farther from Meduseld in mind as well as in body
[Demosthenes] I wonder how far they might have gone with that.
[Jenniearcheo] Than Hama
[Demosthenes] pippin: history is littered with examples of people who have stopped following a king’s orders.
[PippinForTheWin] true, true…
[Darkover] I suspect they would have wanted to hear the order directly from Theoden, if Wormtongue ordered Eomer’s death. Which was next on the menu, I suspect.
[Demosthenes] To some extent Hama is an example of this?
[Jenniearcheo] They follow his orders, but there’s some doubt.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but those people usually ended up imprisoned or dead themselves, too.
[timlotr] they might’ve not killed Eomer even if it was ordered I’m guessing
[Jenniearcheo] Hama does use his own judgement RE: staff and Eomer
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s an interesting thought. do you think it would have come to that?
[Raurenkili] they follow him under pressure
[Jenniearcheo] I think you’re right, Darkover
[Darkover] I definitely think it would have come to that, Demosthenes, or else Eomer would suddenly have died in his cell, or trying to “escape” or something.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad we don’t have to find out
[timlotr] Wormtounge might’ve done the killing of Eomer himself even if they didn’t follow his order (if it ever came to that that is)
[PippinForTheWin] it might have, but that doesn’t mean that the guards would follow through with it
[Demosthenes] Raurenkili: yes, i do agree theoden’s men feel pressured.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s even little things: “the courtesy of your hall is lessened of late”.
[Anameleth] I think the guards feared saruman somewhat also
[Darkover] Happily, it didn’t come to that, PippinForTheWin, although I believe that some of the guards, at least, would have followed such an order if they believed it came from the King himself.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, that was in direct response to Grima’s rudeness
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: Also Theodred’s death.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[PippinForTheWin] i think that at this point, Theoden’s guards feel threatened because they realize Grima’s power. Maybe they thought that there would be no chance for survival if they refused orders?
[Jenniearcheo] timlotr: Only if he could have got away with it in secret, I think
[Darkover] Theodred’s death, we find out later, was engineered by Grima and Saruman between them. The whole purpose of the battle in which he died was to kill the son of the King.
[timlotr] right, that’s how he operates I believe jennie
[Blairwhitaker] I’d surely have noticed on seeing the king something was wrong with him
[Anameleth] Grima didnt have any REAL power, only what was in a way, given, to him.
[Anameleth] was given
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that and there was an army on Rohan’s western border. So they might have felt a need to “stay true” because of that.
[Darkover] Sure, Blairwhitaker, but seeing the problem, and being able and willing to do something about it, are two different things.
[Jenniearcheo] Remember that Théoden was in deed and in fact an old man.
[PippinForTheWin] not physical power, but anameleth, but mental power… the power to convince
[timlotr] Grima was under the influence of Saruman
[timlotr] I believe
[Phil] is it possible that the battle where Theodred dies happen when Grima wants everyone on a wild goose chase
[Demosthenes] Anameleth: in a way, Grima’s power comes from Theoden’s trust in him. Which is interesting.
[Blairwhitaker] Very true. Not sure what I could have done lol
[Darkover] IMO, the “spell” that Grima wormtongue put on Theoden was not a literal spell, the way it was portrayed in the movie.
[Demosthenes] Trust is a big part of this chapter. Who is worthy of trust? And why?
[timlotr] lol so true
[Jenniearcheo] What does Grima call Gandalf?
[Anameleth] agreed, his mental hold on everyone was more powerful than physical
[Jenniearcheo] Lathspell: Ill-news
[Darkover] I think it was more a matter of Wormtongue constantly telling the King, “Eomer is a traitor, he is young and strong while you’re an old man, and he just wants the crown for himself!”
[Jenniearcheo] spell means word or news
[timlotr] Gandalf the Grey Jennie
[timlotr] I think
[Jenniearcheo] Just as Godspell meant goodspell. Gospel. Good news
[Jenniearcheo] It was Grima’s ill counsel that depressed Théoden. Not a “spell”
[Demosthenes] is lathspell an archaic word? rohirric?
[Jenniearcheo] “spell” in this case, merely meaning words
[Darkover] I think this chapter also makes the point, as Gandalf does to the King, that the person you can trust is the person who tells you what you need to hear, even if it sounds unpleasant, or isn’t what you might want to hear.
[timlotr] his voice had a charm to it some would say
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Also Anglo SAxon, of course
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a bit like strider. looks foul and feels fair.
[Demosthenes] thinking back to strider and frodo’s words at bree.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes!
[Demosthenes] this is /very/ similar.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf goes into this at the end. Originally Grima was merely an informant. But after Gandalf got free of Saruman, he started really counseling Théoden into a pessimistic depression.
[PippinForTheWin] right, jennie
[Demosthenes] jennie: that would become easier after the first(?) battle of the isen too.
[Demosthenes] when Theodred fell at the ford.
[Jenniearcheo] Surely
[Jenniearcheo] Which, of course, was as arranged
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf was giving Theoden bad news, true, but I think the one most responsible for the King’s depression was Wormtongue, who was making him think that any resistance was hopeless and useless.
[Jenniearcheo] Despair was the lathspell
* Anameleth nods
[Demosthenes] ‘It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Th?red your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal Of the Mark. In ?mer there is little trust. Few men would be left to guard your walls, if he had been allowed to rule.
[Jenniearcheo] lol That’s what I meant, Darkove
[Darkover] Right, Jennie. Wormtongue was trying to sell the King on complete capitulation to Orthanc.
[Jenniearcheo] After Gandalf got free, it pushed Grima into doing so
[Demosthenes] Did anyone notice that Grima’s counsel is essentially conservative?
[Demosthenes] “do nothing”
* timlotr agrees
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Keep the men at home to guard the house
[Jenniearcheo] Not go out and interfere with saruman
[Darkover] Doing nothing isn’t necessarily conservative, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] Depression an despair can literally make people look old an withered after so long. This is what I took from the look of him in the film. Just more exaggerated
[Demosthenes] Passive, then?
[Darkover] That is what I took from the book, Blairwhitatker. From the PJ film, I got the impression that Theoden was being literally possessed by Saruman, through sorcery.
[Demosthenes] hiya ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Passive, yes, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] Hi, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] I believe Théoden likens it to being bent with the weight of snow. Metaphorically, Gandalf was the wind that blew the snow off
[ChristineGolden] Hi, sorry I’m late.
[Darkover] Oooh, well put, Jennie!
[PippinForTheWin] hey christine
[Alatariel] Hi christinegolden
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: They had to make it obvious, and very quick
[Darkover] True, jennie
[timlotr] need to get going for now peeps, I’ll join y’all next week
[Demosthenes] jennie: like a deciduous tree in winter
[Anameleth] I like than metaphor jennie
[Darkover] bye, timlotr
* Alatariel agrees with Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Demosthenes] Do you remember how Gandalf cautions his companions to “speak no haughty word…”? Do you think he practises what he preaches? Also, does Aragorn come close to going against this?
[Jenniearcheo] With the sword, perhaps
[Demosthenes] yes, with the sword. that is an odd little episode.
[ChristineGolden] No and yes, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] OTOH, all the fuss about the swords was useful in letting him keep the staff. Which was the only really useful weapon
[Demosthenes] Aragorn stood a while hesitating. ‘It is not my will,’ he said, ‘to put aside my sword or to deliver And?to the hand of any other man.’
[Demosthenes] ‘It is the will of Th?en,’ said H?.
[Darkover] Gandalf is more blunt than haughty, IMO, Demosthenes. He is just telling the King the truth, but he keeps his manners while doing so.
[PippinForTheWin] i think gandalf is an exception to his own words because he knows that doing so will free Theoden
[Darkover] Saruman is the haughty one, with his attitude that the King should acknowledge his authority before getting any “help” from Orthanc
[Demosthenes] Darkover: He does seem to let Grima implicate himself?
[PippinForTheWin] at the hands of anyone else, it wouldn’t turn out so well
[Matteo] he skirts the edge though
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. Perhaps Gandalf understood that for Theoden to be truly free and start behaving like a King again, Theoden would have to figure it out for himself.
[Demosthenes] Possibly because Grima is so much in theoden’s trust that he has to let that trust be destroyed first.
[Jenniearcheo] Funny that there’s a real thunderstorm going on. It looked like Gandalf called it up.
[Darkover] Besides, no matter how pressing the need, it would not be advisable for Gandalf to just charge in and take over. It is the King’s Hall, not his, although Gandalf does give Grima a quick lesson in manners!
[Darkover] You summed it up well, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] jennie: maybe he did?
[PippinForTheWin] but gandalf wouldn’t get anything done with grima at theoden’s side
[Demosthenes] maybe it’s chance
[PippinForTheWin] so yes, dems, i think you’re right
[Demosthenes] He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe.
[Darkover] Right, Pippin, which is why Gandalf helped Theoden to understand what a worm Grima was.
[Darkover] I’m not sure anything happens by chance in Tolken’s world, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Did he call it up, or somehow know it was coming and use it?
[Anameleth] i agree with pippin, Gandalf had to get rid of grima in order to even confront theoden
[Demosthenes] ‘Now Th?en son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?’ said Gandalf. ‘Do you ask for help?’ He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he damped down the fire
[Demosthenes] And again that weather … metaphor.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, ‘chance’ seems to be more like fate in ME.
[Jenniearcheo] Right.
[Jenniearcheo] And light being hope
[Darkover] Or Providence, Chris, as I suspect Tolkien would call it.
[Demosthenes] A fool’s hope?
[Jenniearcheo] HOpe in the face of the despair long wrought by Grima
[Matteo] I always thought that Gandalf came back with a little more foresight than before.
[Darkover] Probably, Matteo, since he had been to the other side.
[Jenniearcheo] He’s certainly more sure of himself
[Demosthenes] In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: ‘Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, H?, has betrayed us!’ There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.
[Anameleth] Agreed
[Darkover] BTW, I find it significant that Gandalf specifically asked the King if Theoden wanted help.
[Demosthenes] Along the same lines, what does Gandalf do to Grima?
[Jenniearcheo] I wonder why Grima fell down?
[Jenniearcheo] I have no idea
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Yes, that’s a good observation.
[Blairwhitaker] I live how wizards seem to have thier own rules on magic an life. Almost like a different species to hobbits an men or elves
[Jenniearcheo] Hi miriel
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, though, about Gandalf being able to control the weather. If he could, why didn’t he stop the snow storm at the Redhorn Gate?
[Darkover] Not sure specifically why he fell, but I’m sure it was Gandalf’s doing.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[Blairwhitaker] *love
[Matteo] perhaps because he is a coward at heart
[PippinForTheWin] Once Gandalf returns, isn’t he the most powerful of the Isatari? So he would be more sure of himself knowing that he could defeat the enemy behind this
[Darkover] Howdy, Miriel
[miri_HOF] hi all
[Xanaseb] hi hi people
[Jenniearcheo] Not sure that was ordinary weather, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Hi Seb
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: didn’t want to draw attention there? Here, it’s not so important. Secrecy versus need.
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Xanaseb.
[Phil] hi little m
[Xanaseb] hey hey.
[Darkover] Gandalf the White was more powerful than G. the Grey, Pippin, but that doesn’t mean his success was guaranteed.
[ChristineGolden] Sounds like
[PippinForTheWin] hi xanaseb
[Darkover] Howdy, Xanaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i agree. Gandalf the white brings no guarantees of anything. just hope.
[Jenniearcheo] I think he simply knew the storm was coming and used it, the lightning flash, the ray through the clouds, etc
[ChristineGolden] hhmmm, sounds like a stretch to me. After all, the Company’s peril was deeper on the mountain than in Theoden’s hall.
[Demosthenes] he says as much to Theoden, too:
[Demosthenes] ‘Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark; for better help you will not find. No counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give, and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears.
[Xanaseb] Darkover, Chris, PippinForTheWin
[miri_HOF] I think, that one of the reasons G the White was more powerful was that he could use a lot of power for a last chance. An all or nothing situation
[Blairwhitaker] I always thought he came bk as G the white as a metaphor for wisdom
[Phil] hi Xana
[Matteo] creating a momentary localized storm cloud is very different from actually affecting “world wide” weather phenomena like a snow storm
[Xanaseb] Phil
[miri_HOF] if he loses, he will leave, if he wins, he will leave
[Darkover] Also, as “the White,” I believe it symbolized that Gandalf was taking Saruman’s place
[miri_HOF] while gandalf the grey walked for many an age
[Jenniearcheo] If he could muck with the weather, you’d think he’d have used it other times
[PippinForTheWin] Jennie: Tolkien did want to stray away from ‘magic’, right? So maybe Tolkien tried his hardest to make it seem like magic without it actually being magic
[Demosthenes] Blairwhitaker: wisdom, hope and trust, i guess.
[Darkover] since Saruman had once been “the White.”
[Xanaseb] yeah, what with the many colours thing
[Anameleth] Thats so true pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] yes, PippinForTheWin. Agreed
[Raurenkili] brb
[Matteo] also purity, purity of thought and purpose
[miri_HOF] indeed PippinForTheWin
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would have made it clearer if Gandalf was able to control the weather. After all, he made no secret about Sauron’s ability to do so.
[Jenniearcheo] And it wasn’t considered a good thing
[miri_HOF] well, saurons ability had a lot to o with orodruin
[Jenniearcheo] It’s interfering with nature, after all
[Darkover] That makes sense, Chris. I doubt if Gandalf actually could control weather, either. Someone suggested a moment ago that he knew the storm was coming, and made use of it, which seems more likely to me.
[miri_HOF] after all, having a volcano is rather convienient if you want to mess with clouds
[Xanaseb] I dunno Chris, it’s a question of how much Gandalf or *any* magical being for that matter, was willing to use their full power/potential
[Xanaseb] of course, Sauron wouldn’t resist using his power
[Xanaseb] but Gandalf..
[Xanaseb] most certainly so
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure Gandalf would hold back if it would save the world . . .
[Jenniearcheo] But mostly the power he seems to gain is knowledge.
[Xanaseb] indeed.
[Jenniearcheo] (in his reincarnation)
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that the Istari were given specific powers to fight Sauron.
[Anameleth] I think gandalf knew magic had a time and place in every situation, and used it acordingly
[Darkover] Of course, Xanaseb makes a telling point, too. “White” or not, Gandalf’s essential mission was still the same, to get out there and encourage/inspire people to resist Sauron as much as possible, not to do the whole job for them.
[Xanaseb] Anameleth, precisely
[Matteo] it seems that gandalf was never meant to save middle earth, just help those that would
[Demosthenes] Matteo: that’s right.
[Darkover] So, in other words, maybe he could control the weather, but that wasn’t his most important power, or maybe he thought it unwise to do so too often.
[Xanaseb] we shouldn’t percieve magic as a click of the fingers..
[ChristineGolden] Which would mean that Gandalf’s powers would be specific and limited, Darkover.
[PippinForTheWin] Exactly, Darkover. How would the world learn from its mistakes if these wizards just kept coming in to save them?
[Xanaseb] *eive
[Anameleth] agreed darkover, he could have, indeed, used his power to control the weather, simply to inspire
[Anameleth] if he cpuld even control the weather at all
[Anameleth] could
[Darkover] Well, I think as “the Grey,” they were limited, Chris. Don’t know about the “White,” but he still wanted others to do all they could themselves, as well.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not real big on “could have” in books.
[PippinForTheWin] I think that Gandalf relaized that if he didn’t control the weather at that moment to help Theoden, they would lose the war
[Darkover] And a bit of theater never hurts!
[Matteo] its possble it was a most an illusion, like darkening a room and seeming larger
[Jenniearcheo] At the end, he has the hobbits go deal with Saruman themselves, while he goes off to have tea with Tom
[ChristineGolden] I think it was simply Tolkien using nature (again) to dramatize the moment.
[miri_HOF] on the other hand: if something would almost completely destroy a whole race, they won’t learn from it either way
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: Except they go outside and it’s raining
[PippinForTheWin] Maybe Tolkien was trying to symbolize how important nature is in vital situations
[Matteo] coincidence
[PippinForTheWin] how it marks the difference between life and death
[Demosthenes] It’s too coincidental to be coincidence.
[Matteo]
[Demosthenes] If that makes sense!
[Darkover] Actually, in the first Hobbit movie, Gandalf tells one of the dwarves that he can’t do anything about the rain. Don’t know if that was following canon, or just a good line for the movie.
[Blairwhitaker] Or just nature itself tuning into gandalf at his time of need
[Jenniearcheo] The coincidence is that a handy thunderstorm appears to freak Grima out at just the right moment
[Jenniearcheo] And a sunbeam to offer Théoden hope
[Anameleth] maybe he was trying to teach them a lesson darkover
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, maybe the Valar were eavesdropping.
[Anameleth] about patience or something
[Jenniearcheo] The rain is just gravy
[Jenniearcheo] But less sticky
[Blairwhitaker] He may have been able to clear a small gap in the cloud to give hope
[Darkover] ha, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] Gandalf could’ve just asked the Valar for help
[Jenniearcheo] I’m not sure much of this is escaping the attention of the Valar at this point
[ChristineGolden] Is there any other instance in LotR when Gandalf appears to control the weather?
[Darkover] I don’t believe so, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Not so far as I can remember
[PippinForTheWin] I don’t think so
[Blairwhitaker] Me either
[miri_HOF] nope, cannot recall
[ChristineGolden] Well, I’d think if he had that power, he would have used it more than once.
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: Ah, remember Manwe is the lord of the skies. I was thinking of that when I was reading this last night. But if it is the influence of the Valar, it is very, very subtle.
[Matteo] he does try to stop the snow storm befoe they go to moria, or is that just in the movie?
[PippinForTheWin] But Saruman caused the snowstorm, right?
[Anameleth] There are coincidences when he says he wont though
[ChristineGolden] That’s the movie, Pippin.
[Demosthenes] A tiny, tiny adjustment of the canvas that Gandalf has to work upon.
[Jenniearcheo] The mountain may have caused the snowstorm
[PippinForTheWin] I know, Christine. Haven’tread the books in ages
[Jenniearcheo] But we never really find out
[PippinForTheWin] *Haven’t read
[Demosthenes] There’s another one in Return of the King that I think might have been the Valar. We’ll come to that down the track.
[Jenniearcheo] It could have been Saruman (since he sent the birds and knew they were there) or Sauron
[ChristineGolden] Well, we do know that Gandalf was unable to stop that storm and it was far more important than a cloud and thunderclap over Edoras.
[miri_HOF] Demosthenes: manwe did some pretty nice work when Numenor was misbehaving, though
[Blairwhitaker] I suspect maybe he can control the weather but as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely, gandalf won’t use it when ever he wants only at times of dire need
[Matteo] I thought that the Valar had decided not to become involved directly in middle earth at this point. Hince the istari
[Demosthenes] miri: yes. yes he did. it’s an interesting thing to consider.
[Demosthenes] matteo: indeed. but is a nudge here and there direct involvement? Hmmmm.
[Anameleth] i agree Blair
[Jenniearcheo] Mind you, ChristineGolden, he is more powerful now than he was as Gandalf the Grey . . . Still, I don’t think he could control the weather, or he’d have used it later.
[ChristineGolden] Then he should have used it at the Redhorn Gate, Blairwhitaker, but he didn’t. So, I can only conclude he didn’t have such a power.
[Darkover] I wouldn’t call a nudge here and there direct involvement, but there is nothing wrong with them still taking an interest.
[Darkover] Sending the occasional eagle, that sort of thing.
[Demosthenes] Tulkas wrestling Sauron is gonna make a big dent in Gondor’s landscape. but, a bit of lightning and thunder to help out Gandy? No harm there.
[miri_HOF] lol darkover
[Darkover] Right!
[Xanaseb] lol
[Jenniearcheo] And perhaps they sent him a heads-up that the storm was coming?
[Blairwhitaker] Haha
[ChristineGolden] I think we’re adding an awfully lot of speculation without much to support it.
[Jenniearcheo] As I said, I think his main power is awareness and knowledge
[Anameleth] I dontthink gandalf wants to control the whole situation, only when it is dire
[Darkover] Probably. But we do love to speculate and discuss here.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: well, another person might call it Providence!
[PippinForTheWin] I think the Valar tried hardest to not be involved unless Morgorth was involved, because nobody would be able to stop him
[Anameleth] that is why he hardly uses magic
[Darkover] If you use magic too much, people expect you to use it all the time, and to solve their problems for them, I think.
[Susanita] clockmaker valar
[Puma] the valar were very involved in lotr
[Anameleth] Exactly darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Hi puma
[Darkover] As I said before, Gandalf’s main job was to get people to resist Sauron, and to help themselves
[PippinForTheWin] And we really can’t forget how hard Tolkien tried to stay away from the idea of magic
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, and I enjoy it, too. But it needs something to support the argument.
[Darkover] Thank you, Anameleth
[Puma] that is correct darkover.that was his job
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Matteo] yeah, less magic and more inherent power
[Demosthenes] He’s a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] That’s what we see in this chapter.
[Darkover] Good word, Demosthenes
[miri_HOF] “teach a man to fish”….
[Susanita] zackly miri
[miri_HOF] oh, very good choice of words dems
[Demosthenes] By “catalysing” Theoden, he motivates an entire people (the rohirrim).
[Xanaseb] yeah, I entirely agree with the catalyst thing
[Demosthenes] It’s a very strategic intervention.
[Puma] i am here when you are well on….but did you discuss how at the door to meduseld…gandalf and aragorn supported one another
[Demosthenes] Least intervention ofr the most effect.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was much more credible than the movie version, Demosthenes
[PippinForTheWin] Not necessarily a catalyst, Demosthenes. While catalysts simply speed up a process, Gandalf did more by helping the people. If Gandalf weren’t there, the War would’ve been lost. Without a catalyst, the process would still happen, just slower.
[Jenniearcheo] What the business with the swords vs staff. Yes
[Darkover] I suspect many of Rohan’s warriors agreed more with Eomer than Theoden. Do something about those orcs rampaging through their country.
[Blairwhitaker] Well 10 mins till midnight. Gona have to now
[Susanita] let’s hear it for strategic intervention
[Darkover] Goodnight, Blairwhitaker
[Demosthenes] Some processes cannot happen without a catalyst.
[Demosthenes] night blair!
[miri_HOF] indeed, they need the cathalyst to start
[Jenniearcheo] Distract Hama with the fuss and argument about the swords, appear to capitulate, and then call the staff proscription an over-the-top demand
[miri_HOF] but they can continue without it
[ChristineGolden] It’s like Pippin and Merry meeting Treebeard: without that meeting, the Ents would not have marched on Isengard, etc.
[Puma] yes jennie.but gandalf also proclaimed aragorns name
[Darkover] Well, Sauron wouldn’t have been defeated without Gandalf. I think we can all agree on that.
[Jenniearcheo] Right, ChristineGolden.
[Raurenkili] goodbye everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] Oh. True, Puma
[Darkover] Goodbye, Raurenkili
[miri_HOF] agreed Darkover
[Demosthenes] jennie: yeah, agree. So is Aragorn being all bluster? Or clever? You could argue both seemingly. Is it an unspoken thing? Or did they plan it?
[PippinForTheWin] bye raurenkili!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Raurenkili
[Susanita] see ya Raurenkili
[Puma] sorry i missed 1st part of this convo
[Matteo] bye rauren
[Jenniearcheo] Hard to say.
[Puma] good turnout today also
[ChristineGolden] I think book Aragorn is a proud man, esp of his lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, what specific incident or remarks of Aragorn are you referring to, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] Does Gandy give over Glamdring to distract from the sword?
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And what is it that prompts Hama to trust them?
[Raurenkili] bye Puma
[Darkover] Oh, the surrender of the weapons at the door. I doubt if Aragorn was blustering–that is not his style.
[Demosthenes] ‘The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age’ said H?. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. ‘Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.’
[Demosthenes] I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf gives over Glamdring to make Aragorn reluctantly give up Anduril
[Matteo] there ya go
[Darkover] Gandalf had come to Edoras before, and Hama probably remembered and trusted him.
[Xanaseb] ah the classic staff thing
[Xanaseb] hehe
[PippinForTheWin] I think Hama think that the situation can’t get worse, so what harm can a staff do
[Jenniearcheo] Bait and switch
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s one explanation for sure!
[Puma] and did you also notice.this is one of six instances in lotr that not following orders was the right decision
[Jenniearcheo] Congrats for counting. lol
[Darkover] Actually, I hadn’t thought of it until you mentioned it, jennie, but I’m not sure Aragorn would have surrendered his sword, without Gandalf first surrendering Glamdring.
[ChristineGolden] What’s the quote, Demosthenes, about Strider? If you were an agent of the enemy, you would be more foul and seem more fair? Perhaps that’s how Hama thinks, too.
[miri_HOF] lol
[Jenniearcheo] I assume Pippin at the Houses is one
[Darkover] You *counted* them, Puma? I’m impressed.
[Demosthenes] puma: I’m surprised there’s not seven seeing as seven pops up so very often in Tolkien.
[PippinForTheWin] Wow, Puma. That’s amazing!
[Puma] its an important theme in lotr
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[ChristineGolden] You noticed that, too, Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] seven for the win
[miri_HOF] what are the others, I wonder?
[PippinForTheWin] What are some examples of seven?
[miri_HOF] (off topic, but I’m curious)
[Matteo] we’ll have to do a recount
[Jenniearcheo] stars stones rings
[PippinForTheWin] ah
[Puma] eomer letting aragorn gimli and legolas roam free
[Xanaseb] great fact Puma btw.
[miri_HOF] 1
[PippinForTheWin] aren’t there seven palantir as well?
[Darkover] weren’t there seven fathers of the dwarves, too?
[miri_HOF] yep Darkover
[Puma] faramir not taking frodo and sam to minas tirith
[Demosthenes] seven stars. seven stones. seven names for gondolin. seven sons of feanor. seven sevens to seven the seven. it’s everywhere.
[Darkover] thanks, Miri
[miri_HOF] and durin woke alone
[ChristineGolden] and the dwarf kings had seven rings.
[Susanita] would you count Sam not staying away from the council?
[PippinForTheWin] But Sam wasn’t told not to come to the Council
[ChristineGolden] Seven is considered to be a sacred number.
[PippinForTheWin] So I don’t think so
[Puma] not really,there was no order.but good point
[Darkover] He wasn’t invited, Pippin, as Elrond pointedly observed.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes that’s true.
[Puma] beregond not obeying his orders saved faramir
[Jenniearcheo] Pippin didn’t go away and die either
[miri_HOF] 2
[Jenniearcheo] As instructed
[Xanaseb] that’s a nice one with Beregond
[miri_HOF] lol jennie
[Darkover] Probably the most important example of how disobeying orders can be the right thing to do–Beregond protecting Faramir
[PippinForTheWin] I was just thinking that, Jennie!!
[Puma] so not obeying orders is an important theme….people have to use their own judgement
[Jenniearcheo] Merry snuck along with “Dernhelm”
[Puma] yes
[miri_HOF] so many, really
[Puma] and eowyn had been ordered to stay at dunharrow
[Darkover] Eowyn herself disobeyed orders by becoming “Dernhelm,” didn’t she?
[ChristineGolden] So was Merry, Puma
[Susanita] yeah that one’s kinda big
[Puma] yes christine….
[Demosthenes] Hama does use his own judgement. I think that’s similar to what Eomer does with “the three hunters”, and reflective of how troubled the guards at the main gate of Edoras were.
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] I agree, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Pippin was ordered not to touch anything in Moria… that turned out well.
[Puma] jrr repeats this theme constantly for a reason
[PippinForTheWin] lol Christine
[Darkover] Well, disobeying orders is not always a good idea.
[Puma] correct
[miri_HOF] lol lol
[Matteo] oh no a bad one
[Puma] and there are instances of that
[Anameleth] True darkover
[Xanaseb] pretty fascinating, anyhow
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Gandalf’s resurrection wouldn’t have happened without Pippin
[Puma] gandalf was reincarnated.not resurrected
[ChristineGolden] As I recall, he was also ordered not to touch the Palantir.
[Xanaseb] well, the orcs might have found them anyway Jennie
[Xanaseb] even if Pippin hadn’t messed around
[Susanita] uh oh not that again
[Matteo] haha
[Xanaseb] Sus hey
[Susanita] llamaseb
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true, too. We were talking earlier how everyone disobeying orders in Rohan could have easily caused it to fall apart. Revolution. In-fighting. Eomer in particular treads a fine line there.
[Darkover] yeah, I agree. Let’s not start the ressurrection vs. reincarnation debate again.
[miri_HOF] so… pippin disobeying: bad short-term, great long term results
[Puma] okie
[Jenniearcheo] It doesn’t matter, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Gandalf had to fall and die
[PippinForTheWin] Also, we can’t forget how Merry and Pippin were ordered to not be in the Fellowship… and yet they were and look how great that urned out
[Puma] pippin showed gandalf it was indeed a palantir.and saved gandalf looking himself
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes. By threatening death to Grima *in Theoden’s Hall,* he was flying in the face of a long-standing law/tradition, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] And get reincarnated or whatever you wish to term it
[miri_HOF] they were allowed
[miri_HOF] but grudgingly
[Darkover] Eomer should have taken Grima outside. I wonder if Wormtongue deliberately provoked that incident, in order to get Eomer locked up?
[miri_HOF] (not accountable for spelling at 2:00)
[PippinForTheWin] got to go now bye!!!
[Puma] btw…i did research on our peredhil convo….but will save that for another time
[Susanita] bye pip
[Darkover] Bye, Pippin!
[ChristineGolden] Yes, there’s something in appendix A about that, Darkover, and King Helm.
[Demosthenes] Eomer grasped his sword. ‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[PippinForTheWin] i hope to be back next week
[Darkover] We hope you are too, Pippin
[Puma] yes
[Puma] the more here.the more we learn by discourse
[ChristineGolden] Helm says in Appendix A to some king who wants to marry his son to Helm’s daughter that violence is forbidden within the hall.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, Helm took a disrespectful lord outside, in order to refuse him and punch him out, getting the name “Hammerhand” in the process.
[Puma] freca
[Darkover] Right, thanks Puma, couldn’t recall the name
[Anameleth] Night everyone
[Jenniearcheo] night
[Puma] sweet dreams
[ChristineGolden] That’s him. I’ve told you before, I’m horrible with names.
[Susanita] g’night Anameleth
[Xanaseb] night night!
[Darkover] But that demostrates that the “law of the Hall” is a long-standing tradition, one that apparently even the King didn’t break.
[Darkover] Bye, Anameleth
[Puma] very true darkover.excellent point
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Demosthenes] No weapons in the hall? A bit like not running with scissors.
[ChristineGolden] So, yes, Gandalf was breaking the sanctuary of the Golden Hall.
[Darkover] Didn’t say there were no weapons in the Hall, Demosthenes, just that you weren’t supposed to *use* them in the Hall, or at least, that is the impression I’m left with.
[Puma] well….is the staff really a weapon….that is debateable
[Demosthenes] puma: if i start hitting you with a stick, you’d probably agree it was a weapon.
[Darkover] Hama’s being ordered to relieve our heroes of their weapons was apparently a new or recent order.
[Puma] i could find points either way
[Matteo] Yes, I’m pretty sure in case of attack there were armed guards and such, it was probably a “stranger danger” thing in this case
[Darkover] While you were ducking the blows, Puma?
[Susanita] a stapler could be a weapon
[Puma] nah
[Jenniearcheo] Because Grima knew they were coming. Gandalf in particular
[Susanita] or a pencil
[ChristineGolden] Oh, yes, Puma, large sticks are one of man’s oldest weapons.
[Puma] just swat them aside
[Susanita] which I used in first grade on a punk little boy
[Darkover] He probably had it coming, Susanita
[Susanita] he did
[Darkover] lol
[Puma] but that is like hobits being great at throwing stones…not exactly a conventional weapon
[Susanita] little perv tried to look up my skirt
[Darkover] eeww
[Jenniearcheo] So Théoden goes outside and cheers up a bit, but not wholly.
[Jenniearcheo] It still takes a sword
[Darkover] Well, jennie, I doubt if things could be remedied in an instant
[Matteo] well they didnt have game boys so, throwing rocks was probably a skill learned very young
[Puma] well…..remember….theoden “fall” was his own fault
[ChristineGolden] Possibly a phallic symbol, Jennie?
[Darkover] Wormtongue’s been working on him for a long time. He will need a bit of encouragement to start being kingly again.
[Puma] so theoden had a lot to make up for.and he did
[Jenniearcheo] A power symbol, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] I think it was a symbol of power, as in the power to cut someone’s head off, Chris!
[Puma] theoden had gotten lazy with his job as king
[ChristineGolden] Theoden regaining his sword could be a metaphor for regaining his [sidelong glance at Barliman] “manhood.”
[Jenniearcheo] A symbol of power in his hands. Rather than the despair of being a powerless victim
[Darkover] and frightened, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: a bit like the sceptre (of annuminas)
[Puma] every1 was frightened
[Jenniearcheo] Note that everyone lays their own swords at his feet
[Demosthenes] Swords are used to dispense justice (ie: lopp people’s heads off)
[Darkover] I always thought sceptres were meant to symbolize the might of clubs, rather than phallic symbols, but then, I am not a Freudian.
* Susanita blinks
[Puma] and also notice….it was eomer who gave him guthwine
[Susanita] sorry, dem
[ChristineGolden] Me, either, Darkover, but swords are used throughout lit as phallic symbols – thus my comment.
[Puma] he did not get herugrim till later
[Darkover] true, Chris
[Demosthenes] why does Gandalf say that Saruman is “apt to overlook his bargains”?
[Darkover] And Puma, everyone was frightened, but not everyone was the King, in charge of protecting the land and its people, and an old man whose strength was fading, and having a counselor who kept pouring metaphorical poison in his ears.
[ChristineGolden] He’s a liar and a cheat.
[ChristineGolden] Saruman, that is.
[Demosthenes] Is he “gaming” Wormtongue? Trying to sow dissension?
[Puma] yes darkover.but theoden let it happen
[Darkover] I think that was Gandalf’s way of saying even if Saruman agreed to leave Theoden and Rohan alone, he couldn’t be counted on to keep his word.
[Susanita] what Darkover said
* Puma nods to darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Who was it that suggested allowing Grima to prove himself. or not?
* Elrenia (Mibbit@torn-77161D86.eriepa.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[Demosthenes] Jennie: theoden i think. that weas clever. very clever.
[Puma] i believe that was gandalf Jennie
[Matteo] yes, it was very King Solomonish
[Demosthenes] ‘If this is bewitchment,’ said Th?en, ‘it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast. No, not one shall be left, not even Gr?. Gr? shall ride too. Go! You have yet time to clean the rust from your sword.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Mercy, lord!’ whined Wormtongue, grovelling on the ground. ‘Have pity on one worn out in your service. Send me not from your side! I at least will stand by you when all others have gone. Do not send your faithful Gr? away!’
[Darkover] Oh, I’m not saying theoden was totally blameless, Puma, just saying that his position was under more pressure than that of the ordinary citizen. And that Theoden wasn’t going to snap out of it immediately.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Theoden, supported by Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] ‘You have my pity,’ said Th?en. ‘And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with my men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith.’
[miri_HOF] that one is powerfully written
[Puma] i can agree with that darkover
[Darkover] None of which cheered Grima up at all.
[Demosthenes] Dilemma. Wormtongue cannot continuue to play both sides without endangering his skin.
[Jenniearcheo] Ultimately a coward
[Puma] yes.grima was caught in his own net
[DawnWolf] hello all (;
[Susanita] hi DW
[Darkover] And yet, even then, he was continuing to stall and to serve his true master, Saruman, by doing so, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Such people usually are, Jennie.
[Puma] gday Dawnwolf
[Darkover] Hi, DawnWolf
[miri_HOF] hi again DawnWolf
[DawnWolf] susi (;
[DawnWolf] hey miri (;
* Dwynaway is now known as Dwyna
[Demosthenes] Darkover: time is the enemy of Gandalf here. and the friend of Saruman. Wormtongue knows this: the longer he can keep Theoden from Westfold the more likely Saruman’s forces are to triumph.
[Demosthenes] So that’s why he plays a delaying game throughout.
* Puma nods
[Susanita] hey Dwyna
[Darkover] Right!
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] Hi, Dwyna
[Demosthenes] So Saruman can defeat Rohan piecemeal.
[Dwyna] hi Susanita
[ChristineGolden] But how long is the delay, really?
[Dwyna] hello Darkover
[Demosthenes] Sun Tzu would approve.
[Susanita] hehe dem
[Dwyna] yep
[Darkover] Not very long, maybe, but any delay is not good at this point, Chris
[Puma] a few hrs at that time….and every minute counted
[Jenniearcheo] Probably his last instruction
[Demosthenes] Since the first battle of the fords of the isen?
[Demosthenes] Which was several days ago.
[Puma] 5 days b4
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, I’d guess. Plus the warning RE: Gandalf
[Matteo] well it would take time to gather the horses and supplies and then they wouldnt travel that much at night so possibly a whole day or more
[Darkover] And Theodred’s death would have left the King feeling even more bereft and vulnerable
[Puma] yes
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[ChristineGolden] I doubt that the exchange between Grima and Theoden lasted longer than an hour, and the Rohhirrim were already mustering. I think Grima failed on this one.
[Puma] he did fail
[Darkover] But not for lack of trying. What a traitor and a creep.
[Puma] and in the end.they were better off going to helms deep than fords
[ChristineGolden] I mean in causing any significant delay, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, he’s succeeded in allowing the army to build up
[Matteo] I’m thinking maybe at this point it was less keeping THeoden distracted and more delaying his return to sauruman in failure
[Demosthenes] Failure doesn’t mean he didn’t try. And i think Grima was always looking to create delay, or confusion.
[Puma] just 1000
[Demosthenes] It was something he’d been doing for a long while.
[Demosthenes] And ever Wormtongue’s whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.
[Puma] yet grima had been of useful service in the past
[Darkover] Very true. You can’t help someone who won’t listen
[Jenniearcheo] Was he solely motivated by greed (getting the pickings of Meduseld and getting Eowyn) or also scairt of Saruman and the Riders?
[Puma] saruman turned grima by promising him eowyn
[Darkover] It must have been quite distant, Puma. And was he serving Saruman secretly even then?
[ChristineGolden] Probably first by greed, Jennie, then later, also fear.
[Demosthenes] Yes, Puma. I think Gandalf ackowledges that. I suspect that’s why he lets him go, too?
[Jenniearcheo] I remember the riders scaring the pants off him at some point
[Darkover] I think that is in the appendices somewhere, Jennie
[Darkover] I could be wrong
[Darkover] Demosthenes or Puma would probably know
[Jenniearcheo] Definitely not. I haven’t read them
[Puma] what are you referring to darkover
[ChristineGolden] I only remember Grima at Meduseld, Isengard, and in the Shire.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, perhaps the fear of them convinced him of Saruman’s (and Sauron’s of course) ultimate power.
[Demosthenes] Oh, there is something in the hunt for the ring about that.
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t the riders have some story about finding a dude on the way back to Edoras from Isengard and questioning him?
[Jenniearcheo] Where am I remembering that from?
[ChristineGolden] Grima was evil at heart – he was bound to get involved with ‘the wrong people.’
[Demosthenes] unfinished tales.
[Darkover] There is some passage about when Grima meets up with the Nazgul, or vice versa, and he can hardly tell them what they want to know fast enough to save his life. He was quite terrified, and it was touch-and-go whether they would let him go, as I recall, although they did.
[Puma] that sound like UT.fords of isen
[Darkover] I don’t recall where the passage appears, either, except it wasn’t in the body of the LotR books
[Demosthenes] i believe the black captain thought that putting the fear into him would make him potentially useful (if still unreliable)
[Darkover] You are probably right, then, Puma
[Susanita] brb
[Puma] or are you referring to gandalfs meeting with elfhelm?
[Darkover] Yes, and terror was probably the main weapon of the Nazgul, anyway
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think the Nazgul instilled fear like most people breath, Demosthenes – pure habit.
[Demosthenes] and fanatical devotion to the pope.
[Puma] fear was always the nazguls main weapon
[Demosthenes] err, Sauron.
[Darkover] A little Monty Python allusion, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think it was part of some discussion of the Nazgul’s fear-whammy
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Demosthenes] i am perchance easily amused.
[Matteo] yeah, they had a very disturbing affect on ppl
[Puma] well….we had a view of the black breath all the back to bree….when merry faced nazgul
[Matteo] i mean i know when i first read the books they gave me the heebie geebies
[Susanita] back
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, I think this all came up when we were discussing the black breath etc.
[Puma] side
[Demosthenes] We should talk about Aragorn and Eowyn before we wind up.
[Susanita]
[Darkover] Yes, their initial relationship is both touching and sad
[Jenniearcheo] He seems a bit worried about her attraction to him
[Demosthenes] ‘Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!’ she said. ‘Hail Lady of Rohan!’ he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile.
[ChristineGolden] I thought it was a bit cloying.
[Darkover] Yes, because he eventually realizes she is falling in love with him, and he can’t return the sentiment
[Darkover] Gosh, Chris, don’t you have any romance in your soul?
[Puma] its sad.but a window into eowyns mind
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes, he realizes she is falling for him
[ChristineGolden] “long, lingering looks” and “words unspoken between us” kinda stuff.
[Puma] but it was only 1 way
[Jenniearcheo] her hand trembles when they touch at the cup exchange
[Darkover] Although at that point, she might have fallen for any attractive, strong, brave man who showed up
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I do, Darkover, but I don’t show it like actors in a B movie.
[Demosthenes] or hobbit
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, any potential king will do
[Susanita] two sentences that pack a big wallop
[Darkover] Yes, Aragorn was in love with Arwen, Puma
[Matteo] haha, yeah the only other choice was grima
[Demosthenes] ‘Speak not so!’ she answered. ‘A year shall I endure for every day that passes until your return.’ But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.
[Demosthenes] ‘The king shall come again,’ he said. ‘Fear not! Not West but East does our doom await us.’
[Puma] anything was better to eowyn than the despair of theoden
[Demosthenes] Aragorn dodges again. but with soemthing portentous this time.
[Jenniearcheo] True, Puma. I don’t think she’d have looked twice at Aragorn when Théoden was still down with the case of Depression.
[Darkover] I don’t believe at that point, Jennie, that Eowyn knew that Aragorn was a king, or would be. I believe she loved him because he was “high and puissant,” as someone describes him later. Plus, he seems like a way out of the situation she is in.
[Matteo] so Aragorn is both an escape from her current life and someone desirable to her
[ChristineGolden] That’s another thing: why doesn’t Aragorn just man up and say, sorry, but there’s someone else?
[Jenniearcheo] Darkover: Didn’t Gandalf out him at the door?
[Susanita] she was limited in her choices among the Rohirrim I would think
[Demosthenes] jennie: they four seem like miracle workers to Rohirrim. Also, an elf and a dwarf would be remarkable company. “legends spring from the grass” and all that.
[Susanita] being the king’s neice and all
[Puma] well….think how the dunedain were later described….and aragorn was of course their leader….the men of rohan looked like boys beside the dunedain
[Darkover] I always got the impression that before Gandalf’s arrival, Theoden was almost at the point of needing to be spoon-fed. And guess who would have had to do that? No wonder Eowyn was so frustrated!
[Darkover] Jennie, Gandalf might have revealed who Aragorn was, I don’t recall.
[Darkover] Exactly, Puma. Why shouldn’t Eowyn have been attracted to him?
[Jenniearcheo] He did, at the door.
[Demosthenes] I doubt any rohirrim had ever seen either an elf, or a dwarf. and claims of being Elendil’s heir … i would guess that there would be mighty legends surrounding that name.
[Puma] also remember…theoden would know who aragorn was….they had met b4
[Matteo] i thought aragorn had been to Rohan before?would she not know him from that?
[Darkover] All very impressive
[ChristineGolden] But she could have married someone from Gondor (and finally did), Susanita. After all, that’s how Theoden’s father found a wife.
[Darkover] Aragorn had served Rohan before, but long before Eowyn was born.
[Jenniearcheo] And this was after armorning up and all. Word would have gotten around who ARagorn was before the toast
[Demosthenes] It would be as if Nelson Mandela or someone equally amazing came up and engaged you or i in chit-chat.
[Susanita] zackly my point
[Puma] but theoden would know aragorn.he was old enough
[Puma] and theoden adreesed aragorn as lord….he knew
[ChristineGolden] Trust me on this one, Demosthenes: Mandela could talk to me until the Second Coming and he wouldn’t make me hot.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, there’s that
[Demosthenes] well, choose your poison then
[Darkover] lol, Chris, but I quite agree. There are more physically attractive examples, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] justin beiber for everyone then!
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Dwyna] O.O
[Puma] aack
[Darkover] Er, no
[Jenniearcheo] Even my teenage fell beast won’t go near him
[Jenniearcheo] She prefers someone from Sleeping with Sirens
[Demosthenes] Basically, Aragorn has suddenly become a superstar in Rohan.
[Puma] yes
* Dwyna shudders
[Matteo] yep all that and a bag of chips, suddenly she sees salvation, and I feel like he speaks to her differently than the other men in her life
[Puma] that theoden knew who araogrn was…is one of things the movies put in.and jrr just expected us to figure out
[Jenniearcheo] Kellin Quinn, she says. There you go.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure about that. Tolkien’s Aragorn has the kind of manly virtues that would have been very admired by anyone in that age, heir to the throne of Gondor or not.
[Darkover] BTW, someone asked a few comments back why Aragorn didn’t just announce that he was in love with someone else. I think he didn’t want to embarrass Eowyn by being too open about it. After all, although her feelings were pretty plain, she hadn’t shown any *open* indication of interest.
[Susanita] he’s probably ever so slightly exotic and that makes him compelling too
[Demosthenes] Darkover: agreed. also it would kill tension.
[Puma] good observation darkover.and true
[Darkover] Plus, Aragorn was probably hot. Maybe not as handsome as an Elf, but hot by Rohirric standards.
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] Was Aragorn sure, at this point, that Arwen wasn’t going West?
[Matteo] haha, in the end I guess you do have to fall back on, Cuz thats how the Professor wrote it
[Demosthenes] That makes Gimli the equivalent of the superstar band’s drummer?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Jenniearcheo] Or the bassist
[Susanita] spontaneously combusting drummer?
[Darkover] No, Jennie, but that didn’t mean he was ready to forget about Arwen, or about their engagement.
[Puma] remember…arwen was with aragorn all the time….she looked after him with her mind
[ChristineGolden] That was me, Darkover. There’s ways to indicate a lack of interest without saying ‘get lost.’
[Jenniearcheo] True
[Susanita] he kept that Arwen thing pretty close to the vest even to the reader
[Demosthenes] There was no certainty that they would even win.
[Matteo] Ok, maybe this reading to much, but I’m thinking he had other things on his mind than another loive interested
[Matteo] love
[Demosthenes] All they had was hope.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps, ChristineGolden. But we’re looking at it from a contemporary perspective. Aragorn probably doesn’t have to turn girls down all the time.
[Puma] but i am sure he did b4
[Demosthenes] This chapter provides a tiny bit more hope too. But maybe only a glimmer.
[Jenniearcheo] Matteo: He noticed, anyway
[Puma] maybe not often
[Darkover] And this girl was the niece, and emotionally sort of the daughter, of the King of Rohan.
[Darkover] A certain degree of discretion is advised.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he seem the sort of guy that a girl in Barliman’s would chat up?
[Puma] aragorn was being diplomatic with eowyn
[ChristineGolden] In that age with its dangers and uncertainties, Jennie? A strong warrior/protector would be considered a perfect catch.
[Jenniearcheo] Sssure, but the culture is totally different.
[Puma] but i am sure in his yrs as thorongil in gondor.aragorn got plenty of attention
[Susanita] we know many girls in this Barliman’s who would chat up Aragorn
[Matteo] Right, but what I mean is he was not thinking at that moment ” I need to figure out how let her down” he was preoccupied with saving first Rohan and then heading east
[Puma] he would more fit in there
[Darkover] And if Gandalf did “out” Aragorn by revealing that he was of royal blood, that would be an appropriate match for the niece of the King of Rohan
[Jenniearcheo] People didn’t often look for their own mates. At least not well born folk
[ChristineGolden] Lol, Susanita.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sus
[Darkover] That is real life, Jennie. In Tolkien’s world, lots of couples married for love.
[Jenniearcheo] His arm actually did tremble when he put it around me for a photo. But it was early days then in terms of fame
[Susanita] he prob’ly also saw it as an unneeded complication
[Matteo] thats much better put susanita
[ChristineGolden] They seemed to in Middle Earth, Jennie. I don’t remember a lot of arranged marriages.
[Darkover] I agree, Susanita, but he seems to have wanted to be kind to Eowyn, too. He did not want to hurt or offend her.
[Jenniearcheo] Do you remember a lot of dating?
[Susanita] right, Darkover
[Darkover] Dating, no. Although there could have been courtship of sorts
[Jenniearcheo] Pretty much you meet your one true love and that’s that. Except in this cawse
[Jenniearcheo] case
[Jenniearcheo] thing
[Puma] and something we are forgetting.aragorn had good forsight as a ruling dunedain….so what did he see?
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Faramir wooed Eowyn, Jen, in the House of Healing.
[Puma] he did
[Demosthenes] puma: peril mostly.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, she was distracted and needed to wake up. True
[Darkover] Yes, Chris speaks true, that was really sweet, IMO
[Puma] but that is way ahead ogf this chapter
[Matteo] oh yeah his line there was perfect
[Jenniearcheo] But again, there’s not a lot of “call me maybe” and then getting dumped and crying at the bar with your girlfriends and meeting a new guy, etc.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Puma, but there’s no example in this chapter I could think of, although Theoden did meet and marry a woman of Gondor.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, not that we see, anyway
[Puma] no
[Puma] that was thengel theoden father.who married morwen
[Susanita] Theoden probably got out of Rohan a bit more than the average villager
[Puma] theodens wife was hild
[Susanita] thank you Puma I was trying to remember that
[Puma] and hild died in childbirth
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, I doubt that Aragorn’s body language has ever invited attention from women, so he probably had no experience in letting them down easy, is my point.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, sorry, Puma, I forgot it was the dad.
[ChristineGolden] Theoden was born in Gondor.
[Susanita] Aragorn essentially a loner much of the time
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Demosthenes] jennie: and maybe his BO too. We’re talking about someone who lives rough most of the time.
[Puma] dont be sorry jennie.easy to get confused.so many names.and you know stuff
[Matteo] I agree though that he was an honorable person who would want to do right by Eowyn.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Jenniearcheo] He met Arwen quite early on
[Jenniearcheo] lol Dems
[Puma] at age 20
[Susanita] they were all probably a bit … unwashed
[Darkover] But he cleaned up good, Demosthenes. Remember how Arwen was impressed when he did so, at Lorien?
[Jenniearcheo] Very early for one of his sort
[ChristineGolden] Well, as a female, I’d rather a guy just say “no thanks” rather than stringing me along soas not to hurt my feelings.
[Matteo] you mean his dunedain musk. its like catnip
[Jenniearcheo] Good thing Galadriel put clean clothes on him
[Puma] hehe
[Jenniearcheo] lol Matteo
[ChristineGolden] Another one of her schemes.
[Demosthenes] Okay, do we have any final points on this chapter? Anything we’ve overlooked?
[Jenniearcheo] They finally give Shadowfax to Gandalf
[Puma] did you discuss earlier……that the beginning of this chapter was an intro to rohirric culture?
[Jenniearcheo] formally
[ChristineGolden] The historic bonds between Gondor and Rohan?
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] So would I, Chris, but then, you and I live in a world where a woman can generally be more open about her feelings than Eowyn’s was. Plus, this is a fairy tale, with the accompanying romance and plot developments. So Aragorn could hardly have nipped the whole thing in the bud.
[Darkover] I think we’ve discussed about everything.
[Puma] okie
[Susanita] what’s next week’s topic?
[Vince] Why does Eowyn fall for Aragorn?
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure we have one yet.
[Demosthenes] Not sure. Open to suggestions.
[Darkover] We discussed that, Vince
[Vince] Sorry, I’m late :/
[ChristineGolden] Oh, looking for ideas, Demosthenes? lol
[Puma] how about the presence of the valar in lotr?
[Vince] Next week, can we go back to the Hobbit?
[Vince] I just finished reading that
[ChristineGolden] movie or book version?
[Vince] and I’m reading Exploring J.R.R Tolkien’s The Hobbit book
[Demosthenes] Not keen to run two book chats in parallel.
[Susanita] well, we read it here too a while ago
[Jenniearcheo] Corey’s book, Vince?
[Vince] Yeah
[Jenniearcheo] Good read
[Vince] I’m enjoying it
[Darkover] We could just discuss the next chapter of TT. Or something else Tolkien-related
[Vince] I thought this chat was book only?
[Puma] who is the author?
[ChristineGolden] maybe something about the evil creatures of ME?
[Jenniearcheo] Is there a particular aspect of The Hobbit you want to explore? Dragon-sickness, maybe?
[Susanita] it’s usually book alternating with another topic in the “off” week
[Demosthenes] vince: not alweays. though we’ve had a strong run of book stuff lately.
[Jenniearcheo] Corey Olsen, Puma
[ChristineGolden] balrogs, dragons, orcs, Nazgul, etc?
[Darkover] Why don’t we leave it open for the time being?
[Vince] hmm, I’d be interested in discussing the nature of evil in Tolkien’s works but yeah dragon sickness interests me too
[Puma] we can suggest to Demz over the wekk
[Vince] those two kinda go hand in hand
[Puma] week
[Vince] nature of evil and dragon sickness
[Demosthenes] send me some emails demosthenes@theonering.net
[Susanita] dragon sickness is a good one
[Jenniearcheo] Sounds like a plan
[Jenniearcheo] (the emailing)
[Darkover] aka “greed”
[Puma] the nature of evil in jrr….would take a week.not 2 hrs
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Matteo] or longer
[Vince] maybe like how greed for gold and the effect gold has on the characters and how similar it is to the lure of the ring later on
[ChristineGolden] Are you sure you want me to do that, Demosthenes?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, it could be lightly explored
[Jenniearcheo] And chasing after sparklies?
[Jenniearcheo] (Susanita)
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Darkover] Well, we don’t have to make the decision right this minute. We will think of something, we always do
[Jenniearcheo] :d
[Jenniearcheo] ACK
[Susanita] I’m reading a book about China and dragon means smth else
[Demosthenes] I promise to at least read them
[Susanita] kinda fun
[Puma] gold is a powerful morgoth element
[Vince] I wish I’m not always late
[Puma] i am reading a good book about aragorn now
[Vince] Saturday is just my day off and I do other things too.
[Susanita] reset your clock?
[Darkover] so, are we all finished here?
[Matteo] this was fun
[Vince] I made Torn Tuesday though
[Puma] good job everyone.its been a pleasure
[Puma] great job Demz!!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] I went to TORn Tuesday. once.
[Myra] hm still reading that book I see puma
[Jenniearcheo] Husband is cooking me chicken curry
[Jenniearcheo] Mmmmmmmmmm
[Demosthenes] Thanks everyone.
Session Close: Sun May 19 09:51:40 2013

He was capable of great deeds – at great cost to himself he saved the seed of the White Tree from under the nose of Sauron and bore it to Middle Earth.

Sauron hated him above all other men and elves, and even after Isildur was long dead, poured all his malice and hatred into the destruction and corruption of Minas Ithil – Isildur’s city.

Yet Isildur son of Elendil was also responsible for the Oathbreaker’s curse. And primarily because of him, the Ring survived when it ought to have been destroyed.

Through his actions (and inaction), Isildur left a lasting legacy on the history Middle Earth, setting the stage for of events the Third Age.

This weekend in Hall of Fire we’ll discuss Isildur’s important place in the history of Middle Earth and ponder what drove this unique character.

Join us Saturday May 25 at 6pm EST (New York time) when we’ll chat about the question of Isildur and his place as one of the key shapers of the Third Age.

Suggested Reading:

* Unfinished Tales – “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”
* Silmarillion – “Akallabeth” and “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”
* Fellowship of the Ring – “Council of Elrond”
* Return of the King – “Passing of the Grey Company”

Would you like to suggest a topic for Hall of Fire? Drop me an e-mail at demosthenes@theonering.net — if there’s about an hour’s discussion in it, we may give it a run! And don’t forget that you can check out logs of our most recent chat topics over in the TORn Library.

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Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?

The Two Towers Book III, Chapter VI: The King of the Golden Hall

At the gate of Edoras, the guards receive the four with suspicion. Trust is a commodity in short supply in Rohan. At the doors of Meduseld, the Golden Hall, they are again stopped as the doorward, Hama, requests the four leave their weapons with him. Only after some tense moments is Gandalf is able to plead an exception for his “walking stick”.

Théoden, seemingly old and frail, is attended by his niece, Éowyn, and his closest and most-trusted advisor, Grima Wormtongue. Théoden’s animosity toward and distrust of Gandalf is obvious, and is echoed by Wormtongue who calls him a bearer of bad news and names him “Lathspell” and “Stormcrow”. Undeterred, Gandalf exposes Wormtongue’s duplicitous alliance with Saruman. He urges Théoden to send for the imprisoned Éomer, trust in his own strength and throw off his weariness.

Théoden gives his advisor an ultimatum: either fighting alongside him against Isengard or exile. Unable to maintain his duplicity without comitting himself to a battle he sees as folly, Wormtongue chooses exile.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday May 18, at 6pm EDT (New York time) as we discuss the Two Towers chapter The King of the Golden Hall.

Suggested reading:0
* The Two Towers Book III, Chapter VI: The King of the Golden Hall
* Unfinished Tales: Cirion and Eorl

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8.00am AEST (Sunday) Sydney, Melbourne
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How long do your topic chats go for?

Our chats usually last an hour, and are very newbie friendly. Simply drop in and join the conversation! However, our main room, #theonering.net is open 24 hours a day. We don’t always talk Tolkien there, but if you have a burning question, you’ll usually find one or two of “the regulars” up for a chat!

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Session Start: Sun May 12 07:15:09 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin anyhow?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read about 20 pages…how many appendixes ae in total..cause my book has 6
[Demosthenes] frosaki_the_ringbearer: I think the last is E. But today we’re talking about Appendirx A mostly.
[sunshower] hi Galaril
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i have all the lotr in one book…it’s true…1150 pages..ahhaha
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ok just asking
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Pete-Slagheaps] Appendix B has most of the good stuff, I think
[ChristineGolden] The Numenorean section always reminds me of the “begats” in the Bible.
[Alatariel] Have we started?
[Puma] read ut for numenor
[Demosthenes] Alatariel: kinda yes. We’re defintiely ready to go.
[Pete-Slagheaps] me too, Christine. I don’t think that I’ve read appemdix A moe than twic, sonve 1969
[Demosthenes] Let’s start at the beginning:
[Demosthenes] ‘Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of D?ael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage D?ael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the D?in were accustomed to marry.
[Demosthenes] 1) It’s a rough world for the Dunedain of Arnor obviously.
[Puma] one thing left out….that is in peoples….they lived in a hidden fastness
[Demosthenes] Oh?
[Puma] yes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] my HoF too…so be kind to me finally people to talk to..
[Puma] so they did have armed towns
[Jenniearcheo] Gilraen was such a Debbie Downer.
[Alatariel] Whose Aranarth?
[Puma] well…..then come an instance of ivorwens forsight
[Adann412] my first hof as well but I’ve been in barlimans chat before
[Puma] the 1st chieftain
[Puma] ivorwens forsight was of great import
[Eowyn] My first HoF too
[Nik_Z] same here
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien had a lot of ‘kissing cousins’ marry in both LotR and TS.
[Puma] remember both she and dirhael were of the lone of isildur…just not the senior branch
[Puma] line
[sunshower] wait—how old was Gilraen?
[Puma] 22
[Puma] young for a dunedain woman to marry
[sunshower] hmmm
[Jenniearcheo] Since they normally lived a while
[Demosthenes] I guess that would be young for Dunedain.
[Jenniearcheo] Kinda like the dwarves who didn’t seem to marry and have kids (per family trees) until about 100
[Demosthenes] yeah jennie. like that.
[Puma] dunedain were a bit soooner than dwarves
[ChristineGolden] And Arathorn was a man, full-grown, so probably what we’d call middle-aged.
[Puma] not middle age
[Puma] he was in mid 50′s
[Evenstar25] how long was the average lifespan of the dunedan?
[Demosthenes] 40s or 50s?
[Jenniearcheo] and he was only 60 when he (Arathorn) died
[sunshower] oh, that’s a bit of an age difference then
[Puma] and at that time normal lifespan for chieftains was a bout 160
[Jenniearcheo] When Aragorn was 2
[Evenstar25] okay
[Jenniearcheo] hello
[Pete-Slagheaps] Hi, wanderer
[Demosthenes] Evenstar25: Aragorn lived to 215. That seems to be about the limit of Dunedain life *in Middle-earth*.
[Evenstar25] Okay, I knew he lived a long time I just couldn’t remember
[Demosthenes] So Aragorn was /really/ young when he met Arwen.
[Nik_Z] and also, Aragorn was said to be particularly long-lived for Dunedain at that time
[Demosthenes] still in the short shorts.
[Jenniearcheo] lol
[Jenniearcheo] All the Americans are now picturing Daisy Duke
[Pete-Slagheaps] haha, Jennie
[Adann412] wish I could stay but moms makin me stuff envelopes for my sisters wedding, bye everyone
[Demosthenes] Does that explain his … forwardness perhaps?
[Demosthenes] Though, Elrond had just given him a heap of stuff. Ring of Barahir and all that.
[sunshower] young and dumb?
[Phil] evening everyone
[Demosthenes] young and restless?
[Nik_Z] but at the same time, when he told her his lineage he became instantly aware that she was “better” than him
[ChristineGolden] I’d say it was more destiny, like lightning striking.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all excited about the future when he went for his stroll
[Nik_Z] so his pursuit of her was still more fate-driven
[Puma] and his father gave him the name Aragorn, a name used in in the house of the chieftains. But Ivorwen at his naming stood by and said.”Kingly Valor”that he shall have but i see on his breast a green stone and from that his true name shall come and his chief renown: for he shall be a healer and a renewer….and they did not know what she meant, for there was no green stone to be seen by other eyes
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: To some extent I certainly see Tolkien replaying the Beren and Luthien story. But deliberately. There is an element of “this is not chance”.
[Puma] that passage is in peoples….but it is in fact true
[Jenniearcheo] and it’s directly referred to
[Jenniearcheo] She’s even wearing the same (or a very similar) dress
[ChristineGolden] Fate plays a big role in Tolkien, and I think the Arwen/Aragorn romance was ‘destiny.’
[Nik_Z] I’d agree
[Puma] when galadriel said to him take now the name forseen at your birth
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i agree
[Demosthenes] ?For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of L?n which tells of the meeting of L?n and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there L?n walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
[ChristineGolden] Especially since Galadriel who had foresight, cleaned him up before he met Arwen in the woods.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, in Lorien
[sunshower] aye, there’s that bound brow concept
[Jenniearcheo] yep
[Demosthenes] Oh you think that was Galadriel spinning webs? I had not thought of that.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, anyone could see he was scruffy and travel worn
[Nik_Z] she probably foresaw their destiny
[Evenstar25] well, this has been fun guys, but I must go now, until another time!
[Puma] galadriel knew
[Nik_Z] and perhaps wanted to help a bit, as it were
[Jenniearcheo] And Tolkien specifies that it’s Galadriel who cleaned him up
[Phil] later Evenstar25
[Jenniearcheo] bye Evenstar25
[Demosthenes] After 30 years in the wilderness he probably looked a bit weatherbeaten.
[bld_th] When Arwen introduces to Aragorn she tells “Yet her name -Luthine- is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers” so what did she know about her destiny?
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I definitely believe Galadriel encouraged the romance, and not because of personal reasons.
[Puma] well……he had just returned from confines of mordor
[Phil] a bit weatherbeaten i guess that is an understatement Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Strider does mention to Boromir something about “little do i resemble isildur and anarion etc etc”
[Jenniearcheo] good question, bld_th
[Demosthenes] I think he was being sarcastic.
[Demosthenes] bld_th: that is a good question.
[Puma] but aragorn did resemble elendil and elendur
[Nik_Z] yes
[Demosthenes] Or is she just referring to her Peredhil nature?
[Nik_Z] Aragorn is said to gretly resemble Elendil
[Demosthenes] I can see both possibilities.
[Nik_Z] I think she foresaw her foture
[ChristineGolden] But when he appears in his “raiment” before Arwen, he does appear kingly.
[Nik_Z] partially, anyway
[Eowyn] what motivation do you think galadriel had in “match making” then?
[Demosthenes] Does Arwen have foresight?
[Puma] aragorn appears as an elf would
[Phil] i think she does Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel had foresight and was always weaving schemes. She undoubtedly knew the prophecies, too.
[Puma] arwen does have forsight….its demonstrated
[Phil] i think most elves have foresight
[Nik_Z] and some men
[ChristineGolden] Yes, it’s mentioned in the appendix, I believe, Demosthenes.
[Puma] galadriel knew of ivorwens prophesy
[Puma] and galadriel had the mirror
[Demosthenes] I think the great standard she creates for Aragorn is driven by some sort of foresight.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] galadriel pretty much knew everything i think
[Puma] yes
[Puma] and also arwen had forsight as to what frodos fate would be
[Jenniearcheo] that he’d need it?
[bld_th] interesting
[Demosthenes] Yes jennie. It seems to be very imnportant in winning over the Dead.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think any of the elves clearly saw Frodo’s fate, Puma.
[Demosthenes] I don’t think it’s just adornment.
[Jenniearcheo] And announcing the Return . . .
[Puma] arwen did after the war
[ChristineGolden] Glimpses, perhaps, and premonitions, but not like watching a video play out.
[Darkover] Greetings, all, so sorry I’m late!
[Nik_Z] has anyone else ever been a bit puzzled by what Aragorn says before his death (I am the last of the Numenoreans)? personally, I think he says this to emphasise the beginning of a new era
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did have a son. And apparently some daughters
[Puma] Aragorn was the last numenorean.a new line had begun
[Darkover] Nik_Z, I think Aragorn also meant he was the last who could choose his own time of death, too
[Jenniearcheo] But they . . . aren’t the same?
[Nik_Z] aye
[ChristineGolden] The great standard was a major thing in the middle ages and in english mythology.
[ChristineGolden] Hey, Darkover, I wondered where you were.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or like the Eagle aquila of the Roman legions. It signified their honour. and their lineage.
[Darkover] Sorry, Chris, got here ASAP
[Jenniearcheo] The Eagle.
[ChristineGolden] No, Aragorn was the last of the Numenoreans because his son was part-elven like his mother.
[Puma] Aragorn had more names than any1 else in lotr
[Nik_Z] the Eagles, and their counterparts in the Napoleonic wars
[Puma] no.eldarion was not part elven
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, he did seem to have a number of them.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gandalf had quite a few names, as well
[Darkover] Well, technically, Chris, Aragorn was part-Elf too. And part Maia, through Luthien
[ChristineGolden] I’m not so sure about that, Demosthenes, Tolkien never alluded much to the Greeks or Romans.
[Puma] yes he did christine
[Darkover] Elvish blood, Eldarion had, Puma, not that he was of Elvish race
[Nik_Z] but banners do play their but in LotR
[Nik_Z] bit*
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ellhnas?uparxei k allos ellhnas edw?
[Jenniearcheo] The idea of a Standard is an old one, whatever the source.
[ChristineGolden] Not very often, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] Ironically, the orcs make as much use of heraldry as men
[Puma] the entrance of the people into minas tirith.was always referred to by him as homeric
[Demosthenes] Sign and signifiers.
[Darkover] Well, standards had their purpose in battle, Jennie, regardless of what side or species an army was
[Puma] well….there are many many banners in jrr
[Jenniearcheo] Even Martin’s use of “bannermen” is a reflection of the idea.
[ChristineGolden] The standard was the sign of the king and his authority. When Aragorn unfurled it, he was claiming his crown.
[Jenniearcheo] right
[Darkover] Right, Chris. More like “The King has returned” than “Lord Aragorn”
[Demosthenes] And that plays into his rodering the banner furled at Minas Tirith after the pelennor.
[ChristineGolden] When he rode with it to the gates of Mordor, he was announcing, “The King has returned.”
[Demosthenes] ordering*
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] tolkien had takenpart of greek and romian myhology ..moria for exaple is a village in island of lesvos…the collums of kazard dum are takem by dsign form there
[Puma] the columns were shaped as trees
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] no kazard dm sorry the great hall we see in the movie
[Jenniearcheo] I can see a parallel between the dwarves and classical architecture.
[Nik_Z] I always felt that the Silmarillion was a quite roman/greek feeling to it
[Puma] movie counts not
[Nik_Z] the great clashes of gods and men
[Demosthenes] So, to what extent does Aragorn’s …. drive … derive from all the things he’s forced to do in order “win” Arwen (or win over Elrond)?
[Puma] Elrond was on aragorns side
[Darkover] most of it, always seemed ot me, Demosthenes
[Puma] elrond was no thingol
[ChristineGolden] Well, according to Tolkien, most of his inspiration came from the middle ages and nordic myth.
[sunshower] I say less than most
[bld_th] the movie has a lot of infuence from Rome, specially Gondorian design
[Darkover] He wasn’t marrying the woman of his dreams unless he became king–and of the reunited Kingdom, no less
[Demosthenes] Was he? He seems a bit conflicted … though way less of an idiot than thingol.
[Puma] Arwen was above aragorn
[Nik_Z] Christine – true, but the great armies are more of a antiquity thing
[Darkover] Well, if we’re making Greek allusions, Thingol had hubris
[Nik_Z] since the middle ages saw a decline
[ChristineGolden] I would say that Aragorn had a destiny to fulfill and that his love of Arwen “was his light when all other lights had failed.”
[Demosthenes] Darkover: and in a way that “saves” the quest of the Ring too.
[Puma] little in middle earth resembles the middle ages
[Darkover] in terms of lineage, maybe, Puma, but it seems to me that Aragorn earned his position–eventually–whereas everything Arwen had was an accident of birth
[Demosthenes] Would Aragorn have been in Bree otherwise?
[Pete-Slagheaps] and Melian was above Thingol–higher than Arwen was above Aragorn
[Puma] there was no feudalism
[Demosthenes] It’s a weird thought.
[ChristineGolden] I disagree, Nik. You forget the War of the Roses, for example.
[Jenniearcheo] ‘Course, Turgon was like, “My daughter? Suuure!”
[Demosthenes] turgon is an odd exception
[Puma] no quite jennie.turon knew of ulmos prophesy
[Jenniearcheo] But blew it off
[Demosthenes] And still ignored it. well done turgon.
[Puma] not completely
[ChristineGolden] There are many symbols, etc., to the Middle Ages, Puma.
[Darkover] Maybe Aragorn wouldn’t otherwise have been in Bree, Demosthenes, but one of the things I love about LotR is Tolkien’s insistence that everything happens for a purpose.
[Darkover] It is how he explained coincidence.
[ChristineGolden] Me, too, Darkover.
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris
[Puma] for aragorn to expect people to be rules by him….did he not have 1st to learn to be ruled
[Puma] Elrond was a father to aragorn
[Puma] elladan and elrohir bothers
[Nik_Z] Christine – the War of the Roses was more of an exception, the middle ages mostly saw small-scale warfare
[Demosthenes] Darkover: There’s all these odd little threads. Though … you can find signs of stuff everywhere when you start applying hindsight.
[Darkover] Quite so, Demosthenes
[Nik_Z] armies of several thousand men, 10k at the most
[ChristineGolden] I’d think he would have learned that lesson quite well from Elrond, Puma. I don’t see Elrond taking much sass from a young boy.
[Goldberry] Lol
[Darkover] Or indeed anyone else, Chris!
[Jenniearcheo] lol Sass
[bld_th] Yes, there´s a nice quote about destiny, can{t remember if it is told by gandalf or Tom bombadil
[Puma] but that is why aragorn honored elronds wish
[Darkover] Well, let’s face it, Puma, Aragorn didn’t have much choice in honoring Elrond’s wishes when it came to marrying Arwen. It was more like, this is the deal, take it or leave it.
[ChristineGolden] Those were large armies for the time, Nik. After all, Europe was still recovering from the Black Death.
[Goldberry] If Arwen had chosen to leave ME would Frodo have had to stay?
[bld_th] Oh yes: “Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine” its Tom Bombadil
[Puma] no.both arwen and aragorn did have a choice
[ChristineGolden] Do you think Arwen would have married Aragorn if Elrond had forbidden it?
[bld_th] I think yes Goldberry
[Puma] no.arwen did not give frodo her seat
[Darkover] No, I doubt that very much, Goldberry. Arwen offered Frodo her seat on the ships, so to speak, because she *knew* there would be at least one vacancy, but I don’t think one thing had anything to do with the other.
[Jenniearcheo] Would the war have been won if she’d refused him and gone West?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] she gave her place didn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: a hobson’s choice?
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes.
[Nik_Z] my point exactly, antiquity saw warfare at a grander scale (take the Roman empire for example, or perhaps the battle of Platea), whereas the middle ages saw warfare as a smaller occurence, composed more of raids than battles
[Puma] no she did not give her place
[Demosthenes] You may take any horse in the barn, as long as it’s the one in the first stall.
[ChristineGolden] I think Tolkien would still have had the West win the war, but then Gondor wouldn’t have risen to its full glory afterwards without Arwen.
[Darkover] Jennie, I think it would have depended on how early Arwen refused him, if indeed she had. Certainly it would have altered circumstances, but not if she changed her mind at the time of the war
[Darkover] If she’d done the latter, Gondor would have had a different Queen, I suspect, but that is all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Again this is somewhat reflective of Tolkien’s own courtship of Edith Bratt.
* Puma nods
[Demosthenes] Something we observed with Beren and Luthien.
[Nik_Z] Demosthenes: yes, quite so
[Darkover] Whereas if Arwen had refused early on to ever be engaged to Aragorn, things would have changed dramatically, and Aragorn and his circumstances would have been very different
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes, although the father-figure in Tolkien’s case who put forth the restrictions was his own, the priest who raised him.
[Demosthenes] I think it’s worth pondering … to what extent is this a “re-run” of Beren and Luthien?
[Puma] in a large part it is
[ChristineGolden] I don’t about the rest of you, but I didn’t really know about Arwen when I first read LotR. So, yes, I think events would have played out the same.
[Jenniearcheo] Certainly there are parallels. But it’s referred to quite directly
[Demosthenes] And how that figues with Arwen being the “Evenstar”
[sunshower] a “reboot” with a better outcome?
[Jenniearcheo] In simile rather than just metaphor
[Puma] even reflected by araogrn singing some of beren and luthien to the hobbits
[Darkover] There are some similarities–Arwen’s choice is similar to Luthien’s–but Arwen had a much more understanding father
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was an internal motivation for Aragorn, not a driver of events.
[Darkover] who also raised Aragorn, unlike Thingol and Beren’s relationship
[Demosthenes] sunshower: oooh, do they get a happy ending?
[sunshower] I say they did
[Nik_Z] and Elrond was less haughty than Thingol
[ChristineGolden] Very little to me, Demosthenes. Arwen really plays a very small role in the war.
[Darkover] Oooh, very well put, Chris!
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] i read somewhere that at first tolkien thought aragorn marring ewoyn but he changed it later..why u thing?
[Puma] the evenstar refers to arwen being the last of the houses of finwe and elwe born in middle earth
[Darkover] And of course, there was the precedent of Luthien and Beren, by the time Arwen and Aragorn came along.
[ChristineGolden] Whereas Luthien was totally involved and committed to helping Beren achieve his quest.
[sunshower] isn’t there something in the Tale about A&A meeting again?
[sunshower] after they pass from M-e?
[Jenniearcheo] Which actually makes it even more dramatic. Elrond knew what would happen to Arwen because of Luthien
[Nik_Z] Tolkien married Aragorn to Arwen to signal the renewal of Gondor and Arnor
[Puma] only in 1 slight way
[Darkover] Frosaki, I heard the same, but from what I heard, when Tolkien created the character of Eowyn, he hadn’t yet created the character of Faramir, and for several different reasons, he changed things.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, they were both beautiful elven maids who looked very much alike. One was the morning star; the other, its evenstar. But as to their actual roles in the fight against evil, there is no comparison.
[Darkover] Right, Sunshower, Aragorn promises that he will see Arwen in the next world, because Arwen has chosen the “gift of Men,” which means she will be with Aragorn and his people, not with the Elves.
[Puma] arwen was aragorns inspiration.also she watched over him in thought
[Darkover] Right again, Chris. Luthien was much more proactive in fighting evil.
[ChristineGolden] Watching is a lot different than defying the gates of Angband, Puma.
[Puma] Aragorn used the word “behold!” which in jrr something that is true
[Nik_Z] Arwen was more to Aragorn what Edith was to JRR
[sunshower] pretty long life, raised the kids….see you on the other side! not a bad outcome, imo
[Jenniearcheo] Didn’t Elwing have that same choice? And the same wistfulness?
[ChristineGolden] Luthien was a crucial part of that tale; Arwen was a note in the appendices.
[Demosthenes] Is Arwen a psychological bolster for Aragorn? I’m thinking of her “hope comes or hope fades…” line particularly.
[Darkover] Puma, what you say is true, but being “inspiration” is hardly the same as completing a quest against the dark lord
[Nik_Z] something to come home to, something worth fighting for
[Puma] i was not comparing arwen to luthien
[ChristineGolden] the little woman sitting home doing embroidery by the fire, Nik?
[Darkover] I’d say definitely, Demosthenes. I’m sure it was the thought of earning Arwen at first, and then the thought of her waiting for him, that helped Aragorn go on at times.
[Demosthenes] this too:
[Demosthenes] ‘And Arwen said: “Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it.”
[Nik_Z] in a sense, yes
[Nik_Z] but mostly a beacon of hope in dark times
[Darkover] Maybe that was an example of the foresight of her family line, Demosthenes
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[ChristineGolden] Yeah, that’s how she always struck me, too. Arwen is really the least heroic of the elven maids we’ve discussed.
[Nik_Z] definitely
[Puma] we know little of arwens story
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps because she was a bit of an afterthought?
[Puma] though you are correct
[Nik_Z] she watches things happen for her, but she herself does not make them happen
[ChristineGolden] While Middle Earth is on the edge of doom, she is safely in Rivendell, embroidering a banner for Aragorn.
[Darkover] Sunshower, Arwen’s deal seems pretty good to me, too, but that is because you and I are going to get old–if we live long enough–and die anyway. Arwen had to *choose* to give up youth, eternal beauty, and immortality for death and an uncertain future.
[Goldberry] Elrond probably didn’t let her do anything dangerous
[Darkover] Thingol didn’t want to “let” Luthien do things, either, Goldberry, but she did
[Demosthenes] Goldberry: Dunno about that. We see that travelling to and from Lorien is in itself dangerous.
[Goldberry] true
[ChristineGolden] But she never had to ACT, Darkover, against evil – be it Morgoth or Sauron – whereas Luthien, Idril, and Elwing put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] Not that I am critical of Arwen. She wasn’t a warrior, not practical to expect her to be.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh yeah. Poor Mrs. Elrond
[ChristineGolden] I’m sure she was heavily guarded, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: there are some similarities to Melian, i think.
[bld_th] But Arwen exeplify the difficult of the choice between mortality and unmortality, may be the others had the same difficult, buy their stories are told from a more epic way
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I would agree with that, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I agree, Chris. She was much more passive than earlier elf-women. But my point to Sunshower was that, when examined in context, Arwen’s choice becomes more difficult.
[ChristineGolden] All of the characters faced difficult choices, though, Darkover; Frodo, the most difficult of all. I don’t see what makes hers so special, at least more so than Luthien’s.
[bld_th] Im agree Draover
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that Arwen makes the greater sacrifice? while Aragorn gains a world?
[Darkover] And of course, Arwen gave up her Elvish family, too
[Nik_Z] exactly, Darkover: when Luthien makes her choice, it is in a time of war and dwindling hope, so she wants to enjoy, whereas Arwen finally chooses after the victory, therefore putting more on the line
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[sunshower] the bitter parting of Arwen and Elrond
[Jenniearcheo] Arwen has the loss of Luthien to consider. the effect it had on everyone.
[Darkover] That is a valid argument, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] The easier choice for Luthien would have been to sail off for Valinor, not storm the gates of Angband.
[Demosthenes] sunshower: maybe that is her battle? the one with self.
[Nik_Z] but then again, it was a ray of hope
[sunshower] mortal love–relatively short-term OR immortalilty?
[Jenniearcheo] An immortality filled with regret?
[Darkover] Chris, I think you’re being a bit harsh on Arwen. She was like Luthien only when it came to beauty and the choice she had to make, yes. And as you correctly observe, lots of people had to make potentially-lousy choices. But suffering isn’t a contest, and Arwen’s choice was nevertheless a difficult one. That is all I mean.
[Demosthenes] Would Valinor not … temper/heal … any regret?
[sunshower] I think I am more OK with the whole thing mostly because of the promise of their meeting again in the “afterlife”
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[sunshower] going along that line of thinking–their love is immortal
[sunshower] ymmv
[Darkover] Hmm, I hadn’t considered that, Demosthenes. Maybe, as Elrond suggested in the PJ movies, Arwen would have been happy with just a memory of her love, had she gone to Valinor. Maybe not, too.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] wel all i can say is things are more complicated once u read the books…so much to thig
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] +think
[Darkover] Maybe it is one of those things a person wouldnt’ know until after they made the choice.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that is why Frodo goes to Tol Eressea.
[Demosthenes] On the other hand, Valinor doesn’t help Miriel much.
[Demosthenes] she has to go to Mandos.
[ChristineGolden] I probably am, Darkover. Passive female characters aren’t my favorites – like the one who stands there, screaming, ‘somebody save me!’.
[Darkover] True. The broad implication was that it would help heal, or at least soothe, his body and spirit.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] whatever choice u made u can always have second thoughts
[Darkover] lol, Chris. But to be fair, Arwen didn’t do that, at least.
[Demosthenes] Do you think that after Aragorn dies that Arwen suddenly … i guess … fades?
[Jenniearcheo] She seems to.
[Darkover] frosaki, that’s one reason why Tolkien fans usually read LotR more than once. There is indeed a lot to be gleaned.
[Demosthenes] ‘But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
[Jenniearcheo] Goes a little Gilraen-y
[ChristineGolden] I know, I was just trying to come up with an example, Darkover, and that one popped into my head. Not quite what I meant, but you get the idea.
[Jenniearcheo] Even the son and daughters aren’t enough to bring her joy
[bld_th] i think she dies too, thats the menaning for me of being forgotten
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Arwen might have faded Elf-fashion, and then died, but I got the impression she was doing the Elf equivalent of what Aragorn did
[ChristineGolden] Yes, like that quote about “I have hope to the Dunedain. I kept none for myself,” Jen.
[Puma] arwen died
[Darkover] said goodbye to all the people and things she’d known and loved, and then lay down to die.
[Puma] she chose to die
[Jenniearcheo] And apparently a bare skeleton?
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe that’s the way it was ‘supposed to happen.’ Luthien didn’t live long after Beren, either.
[Jenniearcheo] Without even the little flowers
[Jenniearcheo] And the mallorn leaves actually falling
[Puma] and where arwen chose to die is symbolic
[Demosthenes] In a way Aragorn truly seems to have been Arwen’s hope.
[Darkover] Jennie, her no longer wishing to stay on after Aragorn died might in part have been because she’d been born an Elf, and lived as one for so long
[Jenniearcheo] As an archeologist, I know that an exposed corpse is not the best way to keep a skeleton articulated, is all.
[Puma] arwen could have chosen to die when aragorn did
[Lendaris] Hi there
[ChristineGolden] Maybe when the man died, his elven wife died soon after. Doom of Mandos, perhaps?
[Darkover] I mean, don’t Elves in Tolkien’s world become spiritually attached to their spouses? It isn’t like a mortal widow just living on, and maybe marrying someone else.
[Demosthenes] We don’t know in what order Luthien and Beren died. But they must have been spaced closely i think?
[Darkover] I think it was more an elvish characteristic, Chris, as I indicated in my recent remarks to Jennie
[Demosthenes] As the Nauglamir was brought pretty much directly to Dior with the news.
[Darkover] Very closely spaced, I suspect, Demosthenes
[Puma] when arwen and luthien married they were no longer eldar
[Darkover] I don’t think that was something that changed completely just overnight, Puma
[Puma] but it was
[Demosthenes] Aragron seems to think she could still take a boat
[Puma] in luthiens case by decree of mandos
[Darkover] Arwen and Aragorn, Lendaris
[Demosthenes] ‘ “I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
[Darkover] Right. But then, she would also never see him again.
[Demosthenes] or is he telling fibs?
[Puma] arwen no longer had a right to go
[Darkover] And doesn’t she tell him that choice was made long ago, there’s no going back now?
[Demosthenes] Yet Aragorn thinks she could?
[Demosthenes] He’s wrong then?
[sunshower] “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!”
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Besides, as I think Arwen mentions, aren’t the last of the ships gone?
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always wondered about that passage since the last ship had already sailed.
[sunshower] that’s the line that does it for me, I think
[Demosthenes] Maybe she could build a raft out of mallorns
[Puma] no.the last ships are not gone
[Darkover] I think he might have been mistaken, Demosthenes. I can’t imagine him lying to Arwen about something like that.
[sunshower]
[Jenniearcheo] Or Entwives
[Demosthenes] or entwives
[Puma] cirdan would be on the very last ship
[frosaki_the_ringbearer]
[Demosthenes] It’s an odd one.
[Darkover] Well, he might have been on the last one, Puma, and it might have already sailed. As I recall, Arwen tells a dying Aragorn that there no longer is any ship that would bear her hence.
[Jenniearcheo] Did Legolas go?
[Demetria] Isn’t the last ship the one with Legolas & Gimli?
[ChristineGolden] Weren’t the appendices an add-on? So, it’s possible Tolkien wasn’t his usual OCD self about details?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] yes i thnk
[FloraWright] no he built one
[Puma] yes Darkover.because she had no right to sail…..not because the last ship had sailed
[Darkover] Maybe Legolas, Gimli, and Cirdan were all on the same one. I really don’t think this is as complicated as some of you are trying to make out.
[Puma] no.cirdan was not on ship with legolas and gimli
[Demetria] Cirdan was on the one with Gandolf and the ring bearers
[Darkover] Maybe that is what she meant, Puma. And maybe she meant that as far as she knew, there were no more ships. It could be interpreted either way.
[Demosthenes] But I say to you, King of the N?reans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”
[Demosthenes] That seems a long time to learn the lesson of mortality.
[Puma] no it could not be interprested either way
[ChristineGolden] “There is now no ship that will bear me hence (to Valinor).
[FloraWright] you have a piont
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, rationally, all human beings know we’re going to die, but how many of us actually understand and accept it, until it happens?
[ChristineGolden] That’s pretty clear.
[Darkover] And Arwen had been an immortal Elf for much of her life.
[sunshower] Elfkind were removed from that thought
[Puma] Arwen had made the choice of the half elven….the same as elros did
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] how old was she??Arwen
[sunshower] old
[Puma] and neither could go west
[Demosthenes] Darkover: “i’m going to live forever. so far so good”?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] older than aragorn?
[Puma] arwen was born 241 3rd age
[FloraWright] but she die’s in the end and she was like 2050
[Demosthenes] I guess we all do that.
[Jenniearcheo] Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien the year Elessar died, and he and Gimli went down Anduin and over the sea
[Darkover] Something like that, Demosthenes
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] ooh nice…so aragorn liked older women..
[FloraWright] haha yea
[FloraWright] he was 87
[bld_th] like Edith to Tolkien
[Puma] arwen was 2901 yrs old when aragorn died
[bld_th] Edith was older
[Puma] and she died 1 yr later
[FloraWright] yea he live 100 years then gimli and legolas left and arwen died
[Darkover] I wonder if Arwen was the last Elf in M-E when she died.
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] Well, what a cheery turn we’ve taken
[Demosthenes] I think there would have been some Silvan elves still
[Puma] and arwen had never been an elf.ever
[Demosthenes] Some of the Moriquendi
[Demosthenes] Thranduil’s folk?
[Darkover] LoL, Jennie, but let’s face it, death is a big part of the Arwen-Aragorn tale
[Jenniearcheo] Dunno. Tale of Years ends with that entry
[Demosthenes] They didn’t seem much interested in boats.
[sunshower] Thranduil himself?
[Jenniearcheo] True
[ChristineGolden] No, Tolkien said that elves still lived in Middle Earth, but diminished.
[Puma] death is a big part of all jrr’s writtings
[ChristineGolden] Death and redemption
[Darkover] Probably a few elves here and there, then, some who just didn’t want to leave M-E for any reason.
[Puma] but its important to know arwen,,,,was not an elf
[FloraWright] she was
[Demosthenes] They wanted to have their own small realms? Away from Valinor?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] too attached maybe to leave
[Puma] no she was not
[sunshower] I wonder if JRRT considered any of his contemporaries to be the faded elves?
[Elrenia] Arwen wasn’t an elf?!
[Darkover] Arwen wasn’t a full-blooded Elf, Puma, but I would have called her an Elf.
[Demosthenes] If they were Moriquendi they might not know the way.
[Elrenia] :s
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Puma] arwen was half elven
[Demetria] Arwen was 3/4 elf
[Darkover] If it walks like an Elf, has undying beauty and virtual immortality like an elf…
[Puma] she had a different destiny than elves
[Demosthenes] Also, you have weird exceptions like Maglor.
[Jenniearcheo] Plus, they would have been to drunk on Dorwinion wine to make the effort.
[Puma] peredhil have a choice
[Darkover] Fine, her destiny was different, but that wouldn’t make her less of an Elf
[Demosthenes] presumably still out there somewhere. Singing his little heart out.
[ChristineGolden] But her blood and heritage was elven, Puma. Just because I marry someone from China doesn’t make me Asian.
[Darkover] As far as I know, Demosthenes, Maglor is still out there.
[Puma] arwen was half elven with life of the eldar….which she chose to give up..
[Darkover] Well put, Chris
[Darkover] Which makes her an Elf, or close enough, Puma
[Puma] Christine.you are missing the point of what half elven means
[ChristineGolden] She chose to give up her immortality and right to go to Valinor, Puma. That did not change her “DNA.”
[Puma] elves had a destiny with death.as did humankind….the peredhil could choose to which kindred their fates would be
[Jenniearcheo] Hang on. If the valar could Ping make Earendil not mortal . . . that changed him, didn’t it?
[Darkover] We get that. Which makes them a different kind of Elf, Puma, not a separate species.
[Jenniearcheo] Or am I getting my guys confused?
[FloraWright] in the book she was a elf in the movie’s she was an elf there is no changing that
[Puma] Christine.go back to sil and see what mandos said to earendil and elwing
[Demetria] she was still immortal and bound to Middle Earth until all the elves and all their works were nothing more than memory
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, they made Tuor “numbered among the elder race.”
[Darkover] Earendil and Elwing had a choice, too, Jennie. Elwing chose to belong to the Eldar, and her husband went along with her.
[ChristineGolden] Exactly, Darkover and Demetria.
[Jenniearcheo] I meant Tuor
[Puma] elros chose to be judged among humans
[Puma] elrond with the eldar
[Demetria] exactly and her choice was the same as her father’s and uncle’s
[Puma] but the choice of the children of elrond were bound to his…..when elrond left.they had to make a choice
[Demosthenes] I think that’s the point where you kinda just have to roll with the story. In the same way that there’s really no magic/art but we accept that too.
[Puma] no.just her uncles
[Demosthenes] Otherwise you’ll go bonkers.
[sunshower] [--brain explodes
[Jenniearcheo] ew
[Darkover] Right. and from that day forward, Elros was a Man, regardless of who he married. Arwen was an Elf. If you want to argue that she became of the race of Men when she married Aragorn, that’s plausible, but until then, she was an Elf.
[Jenniearcheo] [--- shakes brains off
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my too much information….
[Puma] she was not an elf
[ChristineGolden] They chose to be judged, judgment which only comes after death.
[Demetria] no, she always was an elf
[Darkover] Although the implication, judging by their conversation on Aragorn’s deathbed, was that she could have chosen Valinor even then.
[Puma] she had the same lifespan as an elf at that time
[Puma] arwen was never an elf
[FloraWright] elrond had to make a choice he picked elf then his sons had to choose they picked elf and arwen picked elf untill she met aragorn the she gave up on elf so to speak
[Puma] elrond was never an elf
[Demetria] yes, and with her choice, she was still an elf, though bound to Middle Earth
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, but did she have wings, or just winglike shadows?
[Darkover] Again, as I said before, if someone has the youth, immortality, beauty, etc. of an Elf, then that makes them an Elf. But beleive what you want, Puma. Clearly we are never going to agree.
[Puma] the choice of elladan and elrohir is unknown
[Darkover] Right, as FloraWright said
[ChristineGolden] Arwen was technically 3/4 elf, Puma, with a dash of Maiar.
[Demosthenes] If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck?
[Darkover] Exactly, Demosthenes.
[sunshower] Jennie
[ChristineGolden] lol, pretty much.
[Demosthenes] I get that
[Puma] half elven does not mean blood…its a state of being
[Puma] and what it means.relates to the 2 different destinies of elves and men
[ChristineGolden] Of course it’s about blood, Puma. If you didn’t have elven blood, you didn’t get that choice. Aragorn was never asked if he preferred to be an elf.
[Darkover] Right
[Puma] idril.upon marrying tuor.did not become human.she was an elf
[FloraWright] im part native american and i have dark skin and dark hair if i marry a white man that doesn’t make me white
[Demetria] no, he was bound to the choice of Elros
[ChristineGolden] Very good, Flora! I was going to make a similar comparison, but thought it may not be quite “PC.”
[Puma] its an improtant point jrr was trying to make.sorry if some of you dont see it
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2when u marry a mortal u do not stop being an elf..it is imposible
[ChristineGolden] Arwen and Aragorn, very loosely, Anameleth.
[Darkover] That’s right, Puma, Idril didn’t change. She didn’t have the luxury of choice. But thanks to the Valar, Tuor did change. But up until the point he became Immortal and Elvish, he was a Man. Up until the point she chose mortality, Arwen was a blasted Elf. We are never going to agree, so can we move on?
[Anameleth] Ahh..
[Puma] she was never an elf
[Anameleth] Are we using the book or movies?
[Jenniearcheo] I think they dinged Tuor not because he married Idril but because he was going to retire to Valinor or sommat, right?
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2Darkover take the lead…
[sunshower] book
[ChristineGolden] book
[Demosthenes] Okay, maybe we ought to move on.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2oh my
[FloraWright] yes but elrond is a elf he said it him self he’s like 4000 years old
[ChristineGolden] specifically, appendix 5.
[Darkover] Sorry, Demosthenes, if I got a bit heated. But it seems to me we are chasing our tails, here.
[Anameleth] Okay. And puma, she was never an elf?!
[Puma] jrr wrote of this
[Demosthenes] No, i think we’ve exhausted that particular avenue.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could talk about the wedding. That’s usually a cheerful topic.
[Darkover] Sounds good! Especially as Aragorn wasn’t 100% sure Arwen was going to marry him, after all.
[ChristineGolden] And it is only one of two times Arwen is actually in the book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2we will never agree people so why we still talk about this..
[Anameleth] I was surprised at how little arwen was mentioned in the books
[Puma] she was referred to many times
[sunshower] her first time to speak was in Many Partings?
[Puma] but in subtle ways
[Darkover] In that, I think PJ did a better job. We didn’t find ourselves in the last movie saying, “who’s she?”
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2she only talks as queen isn’t she?
[Demosthenes] sunshower: And that was about Frodo specifically. But then it’s a hobbitcentric book.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2in the end
[Anameleth] darkover, I totally agree
[sunshower] yep
[ChristineGolden] I hated her inclusion in the movies, Darkover.
[sunshower] We initially encountered Arwen in Many Meetings, got a few second hand peeks at her in a couple of the many chapters since, maybe a glimpse of her in the previous chapter, and now she’s back in Many Partings. Only now does Tolkien allow us to *hear* Arwen speaking.
[sunshower] Why now?
[Puma] arwen was important in the book
[Puma] but its subtle
[Demetria] agreed Puma
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2to that agree
[Darkover] Well, be honest, Chris, you mostly hated all the movies, didn’t you? so Arwen wouldn’t have been an exception
[Anameleth] She was important but hardly mentioned until the end of ROTK
[bld_th] thats why this appendix is important
[Demosthenes] If your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your wounds and weariness are healed. But wear this now in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar with whom your life has been woven!?
[ChristineGolden] I think Aragorn would have fulfilled his destiny, with or without Arwen, and become king of Gondor. After all, that’s one of the main purposes of the book.
[Darkover] We don’t really find out how important, or specifically in what ways, until the appendices
[Demosthenes] And she took a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo?s neck. ?When the memory of the fear and the darkness troubles you,? she said, ?this will bring you aid.?
[Demosthenes] A placebo? A “magic”?
[Jenniearcheo] Does it work?
[Demosthenes] kind of
[ChristineGolden] No, Darkover, I fell in love with FotR. I disliked the inclusion of all the Arwen scenes because it meant ones I loved in the book had to be cut. According to PJ, that is.
[sunshower] not entirely
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris, but there is no denying that Arwen gave him incentive. And certainly, Gondor would have had a different queen
[Puma] the main purpose of lotr…is as the sequal to the sil….to finish that story
[Demosthenes] It’s not morphine
[Darkover] I see, Chris
[Pete-Slagheaps] He used it after he got back home, “It’s all dark, Sam”–one of those monemts
[sunshower] Frodo carried the Ring on a chain for much (all?) of his journey.
[sunshower] Any thoughts on what his thoughts may have been as Arwen places a silver chain with a white gem around his neck?
[Jenniearcheo] But it didn’t ward off the dark
[Demosthenes] Which is why Frodo eventually takes the boat. I suspect Arwen knew that would happen.
[Puma] it sure helped
[Pete-Slagheaps] nope
[ChristineGolden] Are you saying that Aragorn had no other incentive to reclaim his throne other than Arwen, Darkover?
[Darkover] maybe similar to what Galadriel gave him?
[Puma] that the gem helped frodo is right there in the book.he would clutch it
[FloraWright] the same effect
[Darkover] Of course he had incentive, Chris. But maybe the incentive of love kept him from becoming embittered and/or arrogant along the way, as a simple attitude of “it’s my birthright, I deserve it” might have done.
[Darkover] Just speculation.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2maybe…
[Demosthenes] It helped somewhat i think puma. if it had been wholly effective, frodo would have stayed in the shire.
[Pete-Slagheaps] my “nope” wasn;t to you, puma, it was to Jennie. Even if it did help some, he still spoke of the fact that the ring was gone forever.
[Demosthenes] In a way it’s a similar thing to the Elessar (which came to Aragorn through Arwen) and to the Three.
[FloraWright] he really didnt half to leave
[ChristineGolden] I don’t know, Darkover, Aragorn was raised to defeat Sauron and reclaim his throne. I think it ran a lot deeper than ‘for love of a maid.’
[Pete-Slagheaps] (On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. ‘It is gone for ever,’ he said, ‘and now all is dark and empty.’)
[Demosthenes] All of those are focused on healing/preserving the hurts of the world. And Frodo is hurt by malice/sting/sword/etc.
[Darkover] But Aragorn might have remained a chieftain, like his predecessors, instead of becoming the King returned, without the additional incentive of, if you want to marry the woman you love, become king
[Darkover] again, we can’t know for sure, Chris. Just my thoughts
[Demetria] yes that choice was Aragorn’s
[Darkover] That seems to be a characteristic of all Elvish jewels, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that was one of the thoughts i had in writing the blurb, that one simple meeting ion the woods drives him to become greater than he might have otherwise been.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2as i see it ..everyonr in this books had a choice..
[Darkover] I think you are right, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I know, and I hate speculating about fiction since what’s in the book is all that happened, Darkover. I just think that Aragorn had a ‘bigger set’ and a destiny to fulfill, Arwen or no Arwen.
[Demetria] yes they did
[ChristineGolden] Whoa, that got by Barliman. I’ll have to remember that. ;p
[Darkover] I agree, Chris, but the way he fulfilled it might have taken on a very different form without Arwen. Again, we will never know. that’s why people write AU fanfiction.
[Demosthenes] Teasing out the percentage effect of Arwen is kinda impossible. But it’s certainly not nil.
[ChristineGolden] What is the name of G.. is AU fanfiction?
[sunshower] always unwanted?
[Demosthenes] Similarly, would Beren have done the same sort of things without Luthien?
[Jenniearcheo] lol sunny
[Pete-Slagheaps] Don’t ask, ChrostineGolden, you will get ill
[Darkover] “AU” means “Alternate Universe,” Chris. For example, if a fan wrote a story in which Arwen sailed to Valinor and Eowyn became Queen instead, that would be AU LotR fan fiction.
[Pete-Slagheaps] Christine, not Chrostine
[ChristineGolden] That’s good enough for me, Pete, thanks.
[Anameleth] I believe Aragorn had a, almost duty to fulfill, so to speak. To regain the throne. Amidst all of the chaos that he was going through, i believe that arwen was always a thought in his mind, but not his main goal.
[Demetria] no, Beren did it for the love of Luthien
[Darkover] Hey, Pete, there is some very good fan fiction out there. It just isn’t for everyone.
[Jenniearcheo] He was just, correctly, guessing her reaction to the Alternative Universe idea
[Pete-Slagheaps] It’s defintely *not* for Christine, Darkover, that was my point.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2arwen was his beacon of hope
[ChristineGolden] Well, I think it’s very disrespectful, Darkover, but that’s another discussion.
[Demosthenes] Yet “fate” drove him. fate drives Aragorn too. It’s a messy, inexact concept.
[Darkover] lol, I’m inclined to agree, Pete
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2everyone needs one
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Anameleth: Aragorn would have reclaimed the throne of Gondor, with or without his love for Arwen. Totally different than the other elf-man pairs. And why are the elves always women?
[Jenniearcheo] “Mind yer fate!” “My fate?” “Yeah! Them thaings on the ends of yer laigs!”
[Darkover] but providence is not, Demosthenes.
[Pete-Slagheaps] rofl, Jennie
[Demosthenes] haha
[Darkover] Maybe because women are more inclined to give up things for men, Chris, than the other way around.
[Darkover] That was weirdly funny, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Beren gives up a hand?
[sunshower] Jennie! LOL
[Jenniearcheo] It’s Eddings
[Pete-Slagheaps] and his bachelorhood
[ChristineGolden] It’s always a human man and an elven woman – that had to be deliberate.
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, but not for Luthien’s sake, but because he was foolish enough to think that would make the wolf get out of his way.
[Jenniearcheo] well, not on purpose, Dems
[sunshower] hi Vince
[Pete-Slagheaps] Gues and elven man won’t lower his standards, an elven woman would.
[Jenniearcheo] He thought it would work like Galadriel’s phial or something
[Demosthenes] True! Are there any last points that we’ve missed?
[Darkover] lol, Pete
[Vince] Hello
[Darkover] No, I think we’ve covered everything Arwen and Aragorn-related
[Demosthenes] I think we may have run through everything on the topic.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2elen men are heartless snobs
[ChristineGolden] Not that I can think off, Demosthenes.
[frosaki_the_ringbearer] 2*elven
[Pete-Slagheaps] Dunno, Demz–I haven’t been here today, ment’ly
[Darkover] So, shall we talk with each other next time?
[Demosthenes] Well, I think we’ll call that a wrap. Thanks everyone. Next weekend we’ll be off to the golden hall. I think that’s right?
Session Close: Sun May 12 09:49:48 2013

Session Start: Sun May 05 07:04:59 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Ok do we want to start? People can catch up.
[ChristineGolden] Works for me, Demosthenes.
[miriel] yup, go ahead and start
[Demosthenes] I think one of the things that struck me most about this chapter when I re-read it, is how aggressive Gimli is here. All the way through.
[NemuHolopainen] Haha, no Miriel.. I’m Mexican :3
[Puma] this chapter is one of the transition chapters
[Demosthenes] I wonder if that’s not a product of being in an environment that he’s not familiar with.
[Susanita] hi Myra
[Susanita] and Brian
[Puma] i just found gimli to be a typical dwarf
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps it’s because dwarves are agressive by nature and he finally has a chance to act instead of plodding along.
[Myra] hi hi
[Puma] reacting as any dwarf would
[Demosthenes] I think he’s more considered elsewhere. Here he is clearly nervous.
[Pete_R] Yes, Gimli has an itchy axe finger
[Demosthenes] ‘And do not forget that old man!’ said Gimli. ‘I should be happier if I could see the print of a boot.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Why would that make you happy?’ said Legolas.
[Demosthenes] ‘Because an old man with feet that leave marks might be no more than he seemed,’ answered the Dwarf.
[vari] this was the time when he really started to become friends with legolas…bonding more.
[Demosthenes] And urging Legolas to shoot first.
[Demosthenes] ‘I do not know which daunts me more: Fangorn, or the thought of the long road through Rohan on foot,’ said Gimli.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we know he doesn’t like forests.
[Demosthenes] He is daunted.
[Puma] gday Darkover
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Darkover] Hello, Puma, Chris, and Demosthenes!
[Puma] we do see aragorns skill as a tracker
[Darkover] Hi, all!
[vari] hi
[Myra] hi
[Pete_R] He was definitely on edge–the trees, Saruman, not knowing how Merry and Pippin were doing
[Puma] and the assumptions he made about things were all right.so he has good judgement
[Pete_R] hi, Darkover
[vari] totally out of his comfort zone
[Darkover] Fangorn forest was also rumored to be dangerous, wasn’t it?
[ChristineGolden] yes
[vari] and also…he was still trying to come to terms with all that he saw in Khazad dum
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Celeborn warned them to be wary of it; said it was a strange place.
[Darkover] So Gimli was being sensible
[Pete_R] Gimli: “I’m *freaking out*, man!!” (8-0)
[Puma] celeborn had warned them to stay out of fangorn
[Darkover] And he was right, Demosthenes
[Susanita] I like what Gandalf says about they are all dangerous
[miriel] (will we ever have a Legolas shot first debate, do you think? Hope PJ won’t go that way…… sorry for off topic)
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s interesting too: gimli taking an elf’s words to heart.
[Darkover] I always liked that line myself, Susanita
[Darkover] Well, Demosthenes, Gimli was learning
[Pete_R] true, Dems–”the others marvelled at the change…” a while back
[Darkover] as indeed, all of the Fellowship did to some extent
[Puma] we also get to see legolas’s sense of nature…he feels the ents…though sees them not
[ChristineGolden] and growing… becoming less provincial.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think legolas is the one who calms gimli too. Not aragorn.
[Pete_R] haha–Chris, at first, I thought you typed “and growling.”
[ChristineGolden] Well, that, too.
[Puma] true Demz…the friendship between legolas and gimli is fully taking root in this chapter
[Darkover] Is that a pun, Puma?
[Demosthenes] That whole exchange between Gimli and Legolas about the forest feeling watchful and angry is a prime example.
[ChristineGolden] But the dwarves were a closed race, usually separate to themselves. So, this is probably his first real contact with the other peoples of ME.
[Demosthenes] ‘I dare say you could,’ snorted Gimli. ‘You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me. Where you go, I will go. But keep your bow ready to hand, and I will keep my axe loose in my belt.
[Susanita] Nemu: I think vari was saying good night to Phil
[vari] em..i was saying goodnight to phil…wasn’t planning on leaving
[Demosthenes] “yet you comfort me.”
[Darkover] And dwarves would hardly go out of their way, normally, to meet elves
[Puma] well.no.the dwarves were not closed at all…they did work for all the other races
[Darkover] That isn’t the same as being friendly with other races, Puma, or associating with others any more than necessary
[ChristineGolden] They worked for them, but they had little real interaction. It’s not like they went to Rivendell to chat with Elrond.
[vari] indeed…but they couldn’t really be regarded as friends with the other races
[Puma] i am not so sure of that
[Demosthenes] Darkover: So we see Gimli being both argumentative (later with Gandalf) and able to be placated. He’s a little more complex than most credit.
[Darkover] Dwarves won’t even teach their own language to anyone, as I recall, which is a bit isolationist
[Puma] the line of durin was quite cosmopolitan
[ChristineGolden] And there were probably certain dwarves who did the buying, selling, and trading. Others would remain withing their kingdoms.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, I believe book-Gimli was quite complicated in some ways
[LadyK] Good Evening!
[Puma] they had interacted with other races for 1000′s of yrs
[vari] hi
[Susanita] hi LadyK
[Pete_R] Dwarves were very insular. Kept their language secret, didn’t trust anyone. Thorin didn’t fully trust Gandalf. He asked hom for advice because he had no other options
[Darkover] Hi, LadyK
[NemuHolopainen] Uuuu! Sorry :$
[ChristineGolden] Oh, that was one of the things that struck me in this chapter, Darkover.
[NemuHolopainen] Ops!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi, LadyK
[Demosthenes] suse: we’ll come back to the “dangerous” comment soon.
[ladygaladriel] hi, LadyK
[Puma] i dont recall the noldor doing much teaching of quenya either
[ChristineGolden] After Gandalf gave Gimli Galadriel’s message, he “sang loudly in th strange dwarf tongue…”
[LadyK] I’ve always found the dwarves isolationism fascinating and how Gimln overcame it.
[Pete_R] Let me know when we get to the “black is mightier still” comment, please.
[Darkover] In the dwarves’ defense, their people had been around since early days, and yet, they weren’t always accepted by other races. Some of Feanor’s sons used to sneer at them openly, and I suspect other F.A. Elves did, too
[Pete_R] hello, LadyK
[Puma] the dwarves were not isolationist at all
[Darkover] kind of a chicken-or-egg type question
[vari] and didn’t gandalf speak of the halls of khazad dum in the dwarf tongue? and he knew ‘mellon’
[ChristineGolden] Darkover, I agree, Gimli was far from a buffoon or he wouldn’t have been appointed to go to Rivendell.
[Demosthenes] Another observation: Aragorn is obviously better at tracking than Legolas. Another blow against steretypes?
[Darkover] “Isolationist” might be too strong a word, Puma, but I think they were indeed insular
[Puma] gladriel knew khuzdal also
[Puma] the line of durin was not insular
[Darkover] Quite so, Chris. And IMO, book-Gimli was a better fighter/warrior than book-Legolas
[ChristineGolden] In the Silmarillion, the elves once hunted them for sport, Darkover. That would make me leery of them.
[Puma] those were the petty dwarves
[ChristineGolden] Why, Demosthenes? Aragorn is a Ranger.
[Darkover] Right, Chris, so if the dwarves tend to distrust outsiders, who can blame them?
[Darkover] But the line of Durin weren’t the only dwarves, Puma
[LadyK] I agree it’s an off term, but their pride certainly caused issues. And their creation most likely factored into their hostilities towards other races
[ChristineGolden] They were still dwarves, Puma.
[Pete_R] Yes, dwarves were not very open, most of the time. They kept to themselves. Not just the petty dwarves. In fact, gandalf said that he was surprised that Thorin spoke to him ,when they met by chance
[Puma] Dwarves always depended on other races….for they raised no animals nor grew crops
[Demosthenes] Christine: yeah, but the implication is that the gap in skill is quite large. Not one of degree. And i guess I find that suprising.
[Darkover] True, LadyK, although arguably the pride of all races has always created problems, in different ways
[Puma] so i think the insular view is not well thought thru
[Susanita] hi sly
[Demosthenes] ‘Maybe,’ said the Elf; ‘but a heavy boot might leave no print here: the grass is deep and springy.’
[Demosthenes] ‘That would not baffle a Ranger,’ said Gimli. ‘A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read.
[Darkover] Of course, Aragorn is the consummate Ranger, too
[Pete_R] Tolken said so much, somewhere. That;s why they kept their languages a secret.
[SlyStrider] hello!
[Darkover] Hi, SlyStrider
[Puma] keeping a language secret was not limited to dwarves
[Pete_R] hi, SlyStrider
[Demosthenes] This is true. Can Legolas read bent blades of grass? I’m not sure from that exchange. Or rather, some doubt is put into my mind.
[vari] hi
[Pete_R] Who else, then, Puma?
[wanderer] hi!
[NemuHolopainen] Hi SlyStrider
[Puma] anyway.race time….bbiab
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps they just have different skills, Demosthenes. Aragorn is a ranger, which would mean highly developed tracking skills and he’s been doing it for decades.
[Pete_R] howdy, wanderer
[Demosthenes] christine: indeed. He tracked gollum after all.
[ChristineGolden] I’ve always thought of Legolas as more of a ninja-type warrior.
[Pete_R] Yes, Legolas knew trees, woods, etc, but Aragorn was trained in tracking, while Leggy wasn’t
[Demosthenes] ‘Here at last we find news!’ said Aragorn. He lifted up a broken leaf for them to see, a large pale leaf of golden hue, now fading and turning brown. ‘Here is a mallorn-leaf of L??n, and there are small crumbs on it, and a few more crumbs in the grass. And see! there are some pieces of cut cord lying nearby!’
[Darkover] I’ve always thought of book-Legolas as being more of a hunter than a warrior. Just my opinion.
[Demosthenes] (easy enough to start)
[LadyK] Me too, sort of a tracker… Forced to defend himself etc.
[ChristineGolden] I would agree, Darkover, except for the growing darkness in Mirkwood and the ‘spread of the Shadow’ across his father’s kingdom. I bet Legolas killed more than his share of orcs.
[Demosthenes] but then Aragorn is able to decipher the blood of the orc (grishnakh) and conclude that they were carried there.
[Demosthenes] Something Legolas is not able to do?
[LadyK] I think that makes him more green peace than green beret.
[Darkover] You have a point, Chris, but I think Legolas became a warrior out of necessity, Gimli because he was inclined to it, and probably raised to it. These are the characters from the books that I speak of, BTW
[vari] the absolute best bit that chapter was discovering Gandalf was alive! I actually wept when I read that (to be fair I was only 11 at the time)
[Darkover] lol, LadyK!
[ChristineGolden] True, Demosthenes, but isn’t orc blood black? if so, not hard to figure that one out.
[Darkover] Don’t apologize, vari, it is a moving chapter
[LadyK] Well he’s also royalty. I don’t see legolas sniffing a lot of Orc blood
[Demosthenes] All blood tends to go dark/black once it dries/oxidises.
[Pete_R] I wonder if the spiders still loved in south Mirkwood at that time, since the Necromancer had been gone for 60 years.
[ChristineGolden] I agree, Darkover, and yes, I’m speaking of the book, too.
[Darkover] I assume you meant “lived,” Pete
[Darkover] and those nasty things probably were still around
[Pete_R] vari, I’m 60 years old, and I still bet misty when I read some passages in the books. Just today, reading about their joy when they first realized that Mithrandir had returned made me tear up a bit.
[Demosthenes] I also thought Legolas’s summation of how tyhe hobbits escaped “. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees.” was a little sarcastic.
[LadyK] Is it odd that I had no issue with the dwarf naturally being a warrior and the elf being reluctant?
[Demosthenes] And that’s another little character development, perhaps.
[Darkover] Why would it be odd, LadyK? If so, I am odd too
[vari] Pete_R I’m 43 now…and when I re-read it for the umpteenth time…I still feel a little overwhelmed
[ChristineGolden] I don’t think Legolas was a reluctant warrior. I imagine that he was trained from birth with sword and bow, being the king’s son.
[ChristineGolden] well, almost from birth.
[Darkover] Demosthenes, it could be that sarcasm is just Legolas’ way of reacting to frustration, just as Gandalf and Aragorn both become more short-tempered
[Pete_R] haha–yes, Darkover. My *I* and *O* keys are worn. Though, if the spiders stopped lovong, there wouldn’t be any baby spiders. 0:-]
[Demosthenes] Darkover: or, perhaps, an expression of affection for the hobbits. and perhaps surprise at their ability to rescue themselves.
[Pete_R] I understand, vari
[LadyK] Spider babies –ew!!!
[ChristineGolden] frustration, despair, weariness, hunger will make most people short-tempered.
[Demosthenes] or exasperation. they /walk/ all this way only to find the hobbtis have rescued themselves.
[Pete_R] haha, LadyK.
[Demosthenes] there’s an irony to that.
[Darkover] Could be, Demosthenes. I think Gandalf was the only person who never underestimated hobbits.
[Pete_R] I didn’t think Legolas was beong sarcastic just fantastical
[ChristineGolden] More like letting off steam, to me.
[LadyK] Bwahahaha!! Demosthenes no kidding
[Demosthenes] It seems unusual for an elf of the Third age. But perhaps it’s on account of Legolas’s relative youth.
[Darkover] Chris, I know *I* become short-tempered with much less. I wasn’t criticizing, just trying to say that people sometimes react differently to stress.
[ChristineGolden] But they don’t know that the hobbits are rescued at this point, only that they got away from the orcs.
[ChristineGolden] Aragorn still wants to go into Fangorn to find and rescue them, even if it is only to sit down and starve with them.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: true mateship is starving together.
[Darkover] Another sign of why he is a good leader. A good leader doesn’t abandon his people.
[dombillyfan] hi sus and ladyk
[ChristineGolden] I didn’t read it as criticizing, Darkover, just chat.
[Darkover] Hi, dombillyfan
[vari] hi
[ChristineGolden] exchanging ideas.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Darkover] Thanks, Chris. That is the trouble with this mode of communication–you can’t see someone’s face, or hear their tone of voice.
[LadyK] I’m on my phone so apologies for repeats/delays.
[Pete_R] hi, dombillyfan
[Darkover] I did like the comment in the book about how Merry and Pippin, being hobbits, of course stopped to eat lembas even as they were escaping.
[dombillyfan] hi
[Demosthenes] Even Aragorn does not understand the marks Treebeard left.
[ChristineGolden] That’s why I only take things personally when there’s no other way to interpret them, Darkover. Yes, I love that line, too.
[Demosthenes] I wonder what Ent-tracks might look like.
[ChristineGolden] There was one line, though, that did bother me. a lot.
[Demosthenes] ‘I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,’ he said. ‘But there are other marks, very strange marks, which I do not understand. I wonder if we can see anything from this ledge which will help us to guess which way they went next?’
[Pete_R] Size 700 tennies, Demz
[Darkover] Maybe like the tracks of really skinny dinosaurs?
[Susanita] lol
[Demosthenes] lots of fringed roots?
[lunarising] like a tree stood there Dems
[Pete_R] long skinny toes (three or four)…
[LadyK] Really big bird feet??
[Pete_R] hey, lunarising, didn’t see you come in
[ChristineGolden] Treebeard probably taking the hobbits to his den.
[Raurenkili] guess I gotta go
[Demosthenes] later Raurenkili
[Darkover] bye, Raurenkili
[Pete_R] bye, Raurenkili
[Darkover] Hiya, Lunarising
[dombillyfan] is going to have a bath
[Raurenkili] have a nice bath non-Rivendell person
[Raurenkili] Goodbye everyone!
[dombillyfan] lol thanks
[Pete_R] Just don’t bather in that enchanted river in Mirkwood…
[Pete_R] bathe
[Demosthenes] Why do they not recognise Gandalf at first? In fact, it takes them /ages/ to figure out who it is.
[Raurenkili] lol
[SlyStrider] I would like to say that I felt like the return of Gandalf was so well contrasted to his departure. Both moments were so integral. When Gandalf fell, it was almost like everyone realized it was time to be independent.
[lunarising] hey darkover!
[dombillyfan] lol pete
[Demosthenes] ‘I see, I see now!’ hissed Gimli. ‘Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.’
[lunarising] hi pete
[Raurenkili] he was supposed to look like Saruman…
[Pete_R] They would never suspect it was him, the big hat and hood…
[Demosthenes] Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.
[Darkover] Well, for one thing, Demosthenes, they believe he is dead. I generally don’t expect to see people whom I believe are dead, either.
[Pete_R] And, of course, the Saruman voce and face used in the movie
[Darkover] It did seem more reasonable that it was Saruman.
[ChristineGolden] The forest is dark, his battle with the Balrog probably aged him (or at least, changed his appearance), and he was dressed like Saruman.
[Pete_R] And they knew that Saruman looked generally like Gandalf
[Demosthenes] And the voice?
[Demosthenes] And was Gandalf … testing them?
[Pete_R] He had white hair now, not brown and white or gray
[LadyK] I think the book was attempting to reference his age; how long he’d been on ME, assisting its peoples. He might be unrecognized for that
[Pete_R] maybe, Demz.
[SlyStrider] I think their suspicions are warranted, Gandalf probably has the ability to present himself however he chooses.
[Demosthenes] He seems to exert a power (art) upon them.
[Susanita] “Saruman as he should have been”
[Darkover] May be, Demosthenes, but I suspect that Gandalf had not yet quite returned to the persona he’d had in M-E.
[ChristineGolden] What about his voice, Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
[Demosthenes] The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
[Darkover] In other words, he needed a bit of time to become “Gandalf” again.
[Demosthenes] Is it his voice that charms them?
[SlyStrider] One of the best concepts, Susanita.
[Darkover] Saruman’s voice, certainly
[Demosthenes] Why don’t they recognise his voice? I’ve always found that puzzling.
[Pete_R] Don’t think it was his voice, it was his Maia power, similar to Melian’s , maybe–at least, locally.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember Gandalf sounding like Saruman.
[Pete_R] The Girdle of Gandalf.
[Susanita] oof
[Pete_R] Only on the movies, Chrstine.
[LadyK] I agree sus, his own power coupled with a potential universe with returning from the netherworld would mess anyone up!
[Darkover] Maybe they did recognize his voice, Demosthenes, but they might have assumed it was Saruman, trying to delude them by sounding like Gandalf.
[Demosthenes] That’s not impossible.
[ChristineGolden] Well, since they had never heard Saruman’s voice and thought Gandalf dead, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
[Pete_R] He even had Leggy fooled, nd elves are more tuned into Valinor vibrations han other people
[Darkover] Anyway, it was a cool passage, and it wouldn’t have been quite the same, had they all recognized him immediately.
[Pete_R] Gandalf!!! What are YOU doing here??? (8-0)
[Demosthenes] I feel that Gandalf was using his Art to cloud their minds; but I’m not sure why.
[Susanita] then he’s all … no worries, guys, you can’t hurt me anyway
[ChristineGolden] They probably would have thought it a trick of Sauron’s or Saruman’s.
[Demosthenes] Like a jedi mind trick, if you will.
[Pete_R] Mybe Gandalf was still adapting to life in a body–readjusting to beng Gandalf, as someone said earlier
[Darkover] Demosthenes, IMO it was possible that if Gandalf just walked right up to them, looking and sounding exactly like his old self, their reaction might have been; “You can’t be Gandalf, he’s dead!” and they would have tried to kill him immediately.
[ChristineGolden] I thought that’s what he did in Lothlorien, heal his body and spirit.
[Susanita] he hardly remembered he’d been Gandalf
[Darkover] Just a thought. That may be why he was “testing” them, he was easing into it.
[Demosthenes] And once he turns away, his hold on them does also…
[Demosthenes] The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
[Darkover] Right, Susanita, which is why personally, I still think Gandalf was easing his way back into his former M-E identity.
[SlyStrider] “Mithrandir!” he cried.” Mithrandir!” Of course Legolas is first to exclaim his findings. typical.
[ChristineGolden] Wouldn’t Gandalf have done that during his stay in Lothlorien, Darkover?
[ChristineGolden] I can’t see Galadriel letting him take off without all of his wits.
[Pete_R] But he didn;t fully, Chris. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf”
[Darkover] Maybe, Chris. I don’t know. Since I’ve never been resurrected, I couldn’t say how long it takes to become your old self again.
[ChristineGolden] There’s a quote about that: something about “things I didn’t know and things I knew but have forgotten.”
[Demosthenes] Maybe his struggle with the Eye also left him worn. that was more recent.
[Susanita] yeah Christine
[Demosthenes] That’s soemthing to consider.
[borussia_dortmund] Gandalf struggled with the eye?
[Pete_R] ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ is the whole quote. He’s still a little like a person waking from a dream
[SlyStrider] It is also interesting that he can see things far, but cannot see those things close.
[Darkover] Besides, when Gandalf explains how he came back to M-E, doesn’t he say something about being “naked?” In Tolkien’s world, when a Maiar says that, it can mean without clothes, or it can mean without flesh/a physical body.
[Darkover] Right, thank you for the quote, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.’
[ChristineGolden] Or maybe he’s struggling to adapt to his transformation to Mithrandir the White.
[Pete_R] SlyStrider, that happens to ALL of us old people
[Susanita] who are you calling old?
[Pete_R] yw, Darkover. Wish I’d written it.
[Susanita]
[borussia_dortmund] considering I only read lotr like 2 months ago I dnt remember alot
[ChristineGolden] Well, if he didn’t have a body, Darkover, the eagle wouldn’t have been able to carry him to Lothlorien.
[Pete_R] haha–Myself, susanita
[SlyStrider] haha possibly Pete_R (;
[Darkover] borussia_dortmund, it’s a good idea to read the LotR saga several times. There is so much to be gained from it.
[Pete_R] Yes, he had a body, but a glorified body, for lack of a better term
[borussia_dortmund] true lol
[Darkover] Doesn’t necessarily mean he had his old human body, Chris, although I realize that is reaching a bit.
[borussia_dortmund] I dnt think ill be able to read it again for years lol I dnt like reading that much but lotr was great even tho it was so slow at the start
[Demosthenes] christine: my conclusion is that the form of the Istari was fixed. When Gandalf returned after the Bridge, he was freed from that constraint and able to assume any shape he might desire, like Melian did.
[Darkover] Ever listened to it on CD, borussia_dortmund? It is like listening to a play, and quite enjoyable.
[borussia_dortmund] oh cool
[Demosthenes] Aragorn says something to back this:
[Pete_R] I don’t think it was his old body–that was beatn up pretty badly. Thos new body was light, it glowed, and couldn’t be hurt by the trio’s weapons. The old body *could* be killed.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R. He is now the new and improved Gandalf.
[ChristineGolden] That’s an interesting idea, Darkover, I never thought of that before, but it does make sense.
[Demosthenes] ‘Do I not say truly, Gandalf,’ said Aragorn at last, ‘that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I?
[Demosthenes] sorry had to hunt it down
[Susanita] whithersoever…..
[ChristineGolden] Didn’t the eagle say that he was so light that he’d probably float to earth?
[ChristineGolden] oops, I meant Demosthenes.
[LadyK] Fascinating! Literally the new and improved Mithrandir!
[Darkover] He did, and Gandalf got a bit alarmed at that!
[Demosthenes] The bodies of maiar seem to be strange things.
[Darkover] Well, they aren’t human bodies, and therefore outside our human experience.
[sunshower] but…Melian had a baby?
[sunshower] how’d that work?
[Darkover] Except for when they are bodies used for being here in M-E
[sunshower] ah ha
[ChristineGolden] in her assumed form, sunshower. Tolkien didn’t get into the details. Thank God.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s like the properties of light: a particle and a wave at the same time.
[Pete_R] susanita, I’ll explain that by private message. Don’t want the bot to kick me.
[Darkover] Sunshower, I suspect Melian “clothed” herself in human flesh to live here in M-E
[borussia_dortmund] who is melian
[Pete_R] Oh, I meany sunshower, not susanita–sorry
[Darkover] She was the mother of Luthien, Borussia, among other things
[ChristineGolden] It’s in the Silmarillion, Darkover, about her assuming a body.
[sunshower] no problem Pete_R–I have done that–2x
[borussia_dortmund] oh lol I dnt no who luthien is either lol
[Darkover] She was also the wife of Thingol, and put the “Girdle of Melian” around their kingdom to protect it
[SlyStrider] I have realized that I am so far behind in learning Maiar and Istari history.
[Pete_R] Meilan is Elrond’s great-grandmother, or something. A Maia, which is sort o like a lower-level angel
[ChristineGolden] Back to the topic… I have a question.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris, so maybe my suppositions are on the right track.
[Demosthenes] sure christine
[borussia_dortmund] i no what a maia is :p
[ChristineGolden] It’s about Gandalf’s comment about Boromir…
[Darkover] and?
[Pete_R] too bad, tho, sunshower, because it was a good line, but I blew the delivery
[ChristineGolden] that Galadriel warned Gandalf that Boromir was in peril. So why did she let him take off with Frodo and the ring?
* sunshower covers eyes and ears
[Darkover] Chris, that sounds to me like another example of free choice and free will in Tolkien’s writings. Boromir was in peril, but he hadn’t made the wrong choice yet.
[ChristineGolden] “Yes, I fear Boromir may try to forcibly take the ring from Frodo… have a safe trip and see ya if you survive!”
[Pete_R] Maybe because her forsight wasn’t absolute, and anyway, she couldn’t control everybody and everything
[Puma] so where are we?
[Darkover] Well, Chris, it was possible that *any* of the Fellowship might try to take the Ring from Frodo.
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but didn’t she jeopardize the quest?
[Demosthenes] Arguably they were /all/ in peril. And maybe she also felt Boromir had a part to play, but wasn’t certain what that part was. She made that point to Sam when he wanted to go back to the shire.
[Puma] no….galadriel was making way for eru
[Darkover] I wouldn’t say so. Besides, it looks as if what led from Boromir’s attempt on the Ring was meant to happen.
[Demosthenes] Her foreknowledge seems … fuzzy.
[Darkover] Again, Demosthenes put it better than I did.
[Puma] and without boromir the whole mission would have failed
[Pete_R] Also, Christine, like gandalf, maybe Galadriel realized that things had to proceed anyway, even if she didn’t know why. gandalf didn’t know whyhe picked Bilbo, excpet a gut-reaction
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover, but it doesn’t seem to be a good decision on her part if she knew with her second sight that Boromir coveted the ring.
[Darkover] Maybe because the future is always fluid, Demosthenes.
[Puma] why not
[Demosthenes] In a way, Boromir is a little like gollum.
[sunshower] nooooo
[Susanita] “that’s why you play the game”
[Susanita] patterns and tendencies will only tell you so much
[Darkover] Please explain that, Demosthenes. I don’t see it, except how both were tempted.
[Puma] free will as darkover said is of major import
[Pete_R] True, Demosthenes. If Boromir hadn’t chased Frodo away, he might have been taken to Saruman by the Uruks
[Susanita] and it led to another Sean Bean Dies moment
[Puma] boromir saved the mission……so his misdeed had purpose
[Demosthenes] Well, Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play. I wonder that, even though Galdriel felt that Boromir was … troubled … he also had a part to play.
[Pete_R] But ChristineGolden, it turned out to be the right choice, even thoug it seemed insane.
[ChristineGolden] Free will is all well and good, but everyone keeps talking about how the ring must be protected.
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Darkover] That does sound reasonable, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Also on a more tactical level, keeping Boromir against his will would have had a bad affect on the morale of the fellowship.
[Darkover] Very much so
[Demosthenes] So there may have been a bit of “don’t rock the boat” in it.
[ChristineGolden] Gandalf says that Gollum may have his part to play; nobody says that about Boromir.
[Demosthenes] No, that’s my extrapolation
[Darkover] Arguably, Chris, they all had their part to play
[Demosthenes] i think it makes a kind of sense.
[Pete_R] Anyway, Galadriel knew that the quest was in the edge of a knife, and blah, blah, blah, so thkns had to play out. Boromir was “meant” to do what he did, if Galdriel had intefered, it would have meesed the whole thing up
[Demosthenes] And if elves are reluctant to give counsel, imagine how much more reluctant they might be to stick their paws into the action.
[ChristineGolden] I understand that all’s well that ends well, but it doesn’t seem like a sensible decision by one of the Wise.
[Darkover] Boromir was also much more of an asset than Gollum. I think Gandalf offered his “part to play” comment about Gollum because everyone who met Gollum wanted him dead or at least locked up.
[Demosthenes] That seems to be a “modern” trait of the elves associated with the fading phenomenon.
[Puma] actually Christine.just the opposite
[Pete_R] But Galadriel also knew that Elrond had chosen the Fellowship and Gandalf had agreed. She didn’t have an exclusive on foresight
[ChristineGolden] Everyone keeps saying, the ring must not be used, yet Galadriel sends Frodo off with someone she at least fears will take and use it.
[Darkover] Right, I agree, Demosthenes. Elves seemed to have learned that even when they interact or interfere with the world, it doesn’t necessarily make things any better.
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s a calculated risk
[LadyK] Elves were planning to leave ME; there’s a strong sense of “hands off” from the elves in consideration of the affairs of the world.
[Puma] which is why she was allowed to return into the west
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel was far from hands-off when it came to the ring.
[Puma] think of what eru said in the great music
[Pete_R] how’s that, Christine?
[Puma] its just an example of galadriel knowing that
[Demosthenes] Just think, Gandalf says they are all perilous in their own way. Aragorn’s power or Legolas’s power or Gimli’s is no different and no less perilous than Boromir’s.
[Darkover] Chris, so long as the Ring continued to exist, it would always be a source of temptation, to anyone who encountered it. There were a number of reasons, which we’ve just mentioned, why it wouldn’t have been wise or useful to come down too hard on Boromir.
[ChristineGolden] Well, if nothing else, she sheltered the company in Lothlorien and helped them on their way, with gifts and advice.
[Darkover] It was just a matter of, He’s really tempted, keep an eye on him.
[Demosthenes] Each carries a danger within them. But that’s also a potential to do great things.
[Demosthenes] Sword of damocles, i guess.
[sunshower] blessings and curses
[Pete_R] Though she did her best to help the ringbearer on her way. I still think she knew at some level that she had to let things proceed. She truested Aragorn, for one thing
[LadyK] But did not prevent anyone from making their own choice, which is hte point
[ChristineGolden] I’m just saying that it seems odd for her to send Frodo and the ring off with a man whom she thought was being tempted to take it.
[Susanita] sword of Demosthenes
[Puma] i dont
[Demosthenes] So if Galadriel worried Boromir was in peril, maybe she also hoped he could overcome it.
[borussia_dortmund] who is she to deny boromir going with them
[Demosthenes] And acheive great renown. Which he kinda did.
[Pete_R] So dig up Tolkien and ask him.
[Darkover] Certainly, he redeemed himself.
[Puma] it does beg the question….what would faramir have done….as he was the one actually meant to be there
[Demosthenes] He both failed and succeeded. Which is very human.
* Puma nods to Demz
[Demosthenes] suse: we’re back to your power comment now.
[Susanita] \o/
[Pete_R] Good point, borussia_dortmund, she really had no authority, except to keep Boromir a prisoner. Don’t think circumsatnces warranted that
[LadyK] It’s more of a parent thing; they must make their own choices in response to their own fates; regardless of their advice
[Darkover] I always thought Boromir’s demise, and the way he died, was kind of like what happened to Isildur; it seemed like a tragedy at the time, but it was by no means the worst thing that could have happened.
[vari] faramir is one of my fav characters, Puma. I love the interaction between him and Eowyn. Disappointed they left that out of the films.
[Susanita] it’s in the EE … sort of
[SlyStrider] extended edition!
[Puma] well the movies did not have faramir in them…movies had farfromir
[Demosthenes] ‘Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,’ said Gimli. ‘But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.’
[Demosthenes] ‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
[ChristineGolden] True, Darkover, and I’ve always liked him, as much as I do Faramir.
[Demosthenes] . And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gl?? for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.
[Pete_R] Great question, Puma. Faramir would *nit* have scared Frodo away. The Uruks would have caught Frodo, Saruman or Sauron would have gotten the Ring, and LOTR would have been *two* volumes, not three.
[LadyK] Me too Vari! I was also sad when they do altered the character in the movie. Understandable but sad.
[Demosthenes] Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous ? not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.
[Darkover] Right, Demosthenes! Dangerous isn’t the same as bad or vicious
[Puma] well….actually pete…maybe not….the choices might have been different
[Pete_R] Aslan was dangerous, too–but he was good.
[Darkover] Right, Pete_R! As Lewis used to say; “This is not a tame lion.”
[ChristineGolden] It wasn’t understandable to me, at least not in relation to artistic necessity.
[Demosthenes] Wisdom and kindliness is what tempers the danger that people (and cultures i guess!) can pose to each other.
[Pete_R] Puma, I believe hat Tolkien purposely wrote Faramir as one who would reject the Ring, wherever.
[Puma] remember….pity is what won the war….not battle valor
[Puma] though battle valor had a part
[ChristineGolden] Everyone they encounter has the potential to be dangerous. look at Grima.
[Darkover] Well, battle valor had it’s place, Puma, although I believe I understand your point.
[Demosthenes] puma: and maybe that helped Boromir in the end too.
[Pete_R] exactly. Valor was the smoke screen to let Frodo sneak to Orodruin
[Puma] exactly Demz
[Demosthenes] hullo Turgon
[Turgon] hi
[Puma] gday Turgon
[Pete_R] Turgon! Wattup?
[Darkover] howdy, Turgon
[Demosthenes] That was a good question, christine.
[wanderer] hi Turgon!
[ChristineGolden] Thank you, Demosthenes.
[ChristineGolden] Want another? lol
[Demosthenes] If you have one!
[Demosthenes] I do think there’s a fair few puzzlers in this chapter.
[Puma] remember….all the proceeding action goes back to boromir
[ChristineGolden] Did anyone else notice the sense of decay in this chapter?
[Puma] he was the crux
[ChristineGolden] Always, Pete. :p
[LadyK] Hi turgon
[Demosthenes] That Fangorn is old and musty? That Isengard is not what it once was?
[Pete_R] Not me, Chris-I stink at analysis and stuff
[Susanita] the mystery of the eagle and the fell beast
[Demosthenes] I’m not precisely sure what you mean.
[LadyK] Ooo sense of decay, please expand Christine!
[Puma] i dont sense decay as much as age
[Demosthenes] the destruction of the Endless Stair?
[vari] you mean the atmosphere in the forest?
[ChristineGolden] All through it, from “My very bones are chilled” (implying the weather’s turning) to the piles of leaves on the floor of Fangorn.
[Darkover] Really, Chris? it seemed to be a chapter about resurrection and rebirth to me.
[Demosthenes] That always made me kinda sad. No more durin’s tower
[Pete_R] Really, Tolkien’s world, almost from Dat 1, has been i decay
[Puma] reincarnation.not resurrection!!!!
[Pete_R] Day 1
[Demosthenes] Darkover: one is a flipside of the other. death and rebirth.
[ChristineGolden] What did Legolas say? Fangorn made him feel young? And the closed-in, musty feel of the forest.
[LadyK] No reincarnation without decay I always say!
[Puma] jrr would never have done resurrection!!!
[Darkover] Gandalf comes back–the most obvious–and he mentions that the Dark Lord has forgotten Fangorn and the Ents.
[Pete_R] No, resurrection, Puma. Gandalf was not born, the first time or the second time.
[Darkover] LadyK,
[Puma] gandalf was in human form and could die
[Demosthenes] ‘It is old, very old,’ said the Elf. ‘So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.’
[Pete_R] Right, but reicanation means rebirth, and he wasn’t born
[vari] perhaps the sense of decay was deliberate…to emphasise the impact of stagnation, of the trees growing old and growing roots…an analogy for what would happen in middle earth if the peoples just ignored the happenings outside their doorstep?
[sunshower] that’s a different Legolas there I think
[Puma] yes he was
[LadyK] That’s how I feel some days. Old and full of memory
[Pete_R] even if I cant type
[Pete_R] He was? Who was his mother?
[Puma] gandalf was reborn in the maiar sort of way
[Puma] elves are reincarnated also
[Pete_R] Both times, he was sent fully grown from Valinor.
[Darkover] Puma, I think Tolkien would have gone more for resurrection, being a Catholic, rather than reincarnation
[Puma] without being born again
[ChristineGolden] The answer is in the Silmarillion.
[Puma] jrr said specifically it was reincarnation.not resurrection
[Darkover] don’t recall that, at least not as it pertained to Gandalf
[Puma] no doubt what jrr felt
[Turgon] Puma, why do you say he would never have done resurrection?
[ChristineGolden] If Manwe could send back Beren, a man, then he could do the same with a Maiar.
[Pete_R] Yes, reincarnation means you come back as someobe=ne else. Resurrection means you return as yourself, without any kind of birth
[borussia_dortmund] i no this is off topic but did the necromancer actually ever necromace anything?
[Puma] as a catholic…to jrr only jesus was resurrected
[ChristineGolden] Traditional Roman Catholics do not believe in human reincarnation. Big, big sin.
[Puma] yes marcoreus
[Turgon] but there’s no Jesus on Arda
[borussia_dortmund] like what?
[Demosthenes] No Turgon there is not.
[Puma] off topic for this chat
[Puma] will discuss with you another time
[borussia_dortmund] okie
[Pete_R] I’ll have to try to fund something in “Letters,” though that book gives me a headache.
[borussia_dortmund] its ok jus leave it
[Puma] letters has what i was saying
[Darkover] This chapter also fills us in on what has been happening on other fronts, in other parts of M-E
[Susanita] hi Silmarien
[Puma] that is why this is a transition chapter
[ChristineGolden] Another contradiction in the “was it Saruman?” thing was the horses.
[Puma] little happens
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i think you’re partially right — there is decay. but we also see renewal. and hope. although Gandalf only talks of hope, not of certainty.
[Silmarien] hello
[LadyK] Hahah Pete, me too! I’ve tried 4 times to get through it!
[Darkover] But for all Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli knew, Chris, the horses ran off because the old man was Saruman
[Puma] letters are not bad….some are really interesting
[ChristineGolden] Yes, when Gandalf says, “the tide has turned.”
[ChristineGolden] No, Legolas said that they sounded happy, as though meeting an old friend.
[Susanita] and he can tell that he can’t “see” Frodo anymore
[ChristineGolden] Why would they do that if the first white wizard was Saruman?
[Demosthenes] Gandalf brings hope … but it’s also in others, too. Like Fangorn.
[LadyK] I come back to you know… Sounds like resurrection to me! j/k
[Puma] jrr used this chapter to draw some storyline together.so the action could continue
[Pete_R] LadyK, I read Letters once, took lots of notes, but even my notes give me a headache.
[Darkover] as I recall, the horses ran off because Shadowfax called to them
[Puma] exactly Darkover
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that Shadowfax was away in the South.
[Puma] but had been heading that way Christine
[Darkover] Well, Shadowfax came back, because Gandalf whistled him up.
[Puma] thought him up
[Demosthenes] I think both Saruman and Gandalf were there. Gandalf in this chapter says that he was there and saw Treebeard but was spaced out. In … the Hunt for the Ring in UT, one of the outlines says that Saruman went to the forest’s edge, but found nothing except corpses.
[Demosthenes] If i recall correctly.
[Puma] yes Demz
[Puma] saruman had been there
[Puma] or a phantom of saruman
[Demosthenes] So quite possibly Gandalf is being truthful that it was not him that Gimli saw.
[ChristineGolden] I’ll have to concede the point to you, Demosthenes; it’s been awhile since I read UT.
[LadyK] The white wizard was no more; Saurman was corrupt. I saw the return of Gandalf as an equilibrium of sorts. To restore the balance?
[Susanita] hi lady c
[Darkover] If Saruman was there, was he some kind of projection? Because I get the impression that he couldn’t leave Orthanc bodily, not while it was surrounded.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I think Gandalf was telling the truth – hence, my confusion.
[Susanita] was it surrounded at that point?
[Demosthenes] We can always argue about whether UT is a “true” history. whatever that might mean.
[Puma] yes lady K….the valar interceded
[Lady_Celebrian] hi Susanita
[Puma] as did eru
[ChristineGolden] That’s what I said earlier, Puma, about Manwe and Beren.
[Puma] the valar are very active in lotr
[Puma] this is just an example
[Demosthenes] How did Gandalf know that the trio would be/were headed to Edoras eventually?
[Darkover] Don’t recall, Susanita, but I do believe it wasn’t a good time for Saruman to be taking any walks.
[Susanita] he wanted to know where his orcs were
[Turgon] I don’t think the forest would welcome him
[Puma] i think form gwaihir Demz
[ChristineGolden] But Gandalf said that he was there, Darkover, to see why his orcs hadn’t returned.
[Susanita] but I still think it was Gandalf and he was pulling their leg
[Darkover] Good point, Turgon
[Demosthenes] . Your next journey is marked by your given word. You must go to Edoras and seek out Th?en in his hall. For you are needed. The light of And?must now be uncovered in the battle for which it has so long waited. There is war in Rohan, and worse evil: it goes ill with Th?en.’
[Darkover] Did he? Sorry, I need to read the chapter more thoroughly, Chris
[Puma] it was not gandalf
[sunshower] how did Gandalf know Aragorn said they’d go to Edoras?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, he’s very specific about it. i re-read it when I hit the point about the horses.
[Demosthenes] Gandalf asks all these questions at the beginning, but I reckon he already knows all the answers.
[Puma] aragorn had told of the whole journey
[Darkover] Maybe their horses talked to Shadowfax, who told Gandalf
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] lol, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I think it goes back to his remark about “many things forgotten and many things now known.”
[Puma] we dont see that convo.its just mentioned.as it would be a repeat for readers
[Demosthenes] The companions sat on the ground at his feet, and Aragorn took up the tale. For a long while Gandalf said nothing, and he asked no questions. His hands were spread upon his knees, and his eyes were closed.
[Susanita] hi Legolas
[ChristineGolden] Good point, Puma!
[Legolas] hi
[Demosthenes] Altrhough i guess that might explain it.
[LadyK] GTG. Thanks all I enjoyed.
[wanderer] hi Legolas
[Puma] so aragorn had brought gandalf up to speed
[Darkover] Goodbye, LadyK
[sunshower] bye LadyK
[Demosthenes] Hmmmm, are we up to final points?
[Puma] stay safe ladyK
[wanderer] Bye, LadyK
[Demosthenes] Anything we’ve missed in our discussion pertaining to the chapter?
[ChristineGolden] I did like the small detail of Gandalf sitting with his hands on his knees, upward, and looking as though they were filled with light. Metaphor?
[Puma] this chapter both answers questions we had….and prepares us for the further action
[Darkover] I think we’ve covered about everything
[Susanita] I was confused about the dark riders not allowed to cross the river
[Pete_R] ChristineGolden, in re: of something u asked about earlier. Fro “Letters”: “Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his [Gandalf's] healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.”
[Puma] excellent Pete
[ChristineGolden] That’s how I interpreted it, Pete, with the ‘refreshment’ being spiritual.
[ChristineGolden] Like going on a Catholic retreat.
[Demosthenes] suse: I guess that Sauron was holding them back as a “surprise”. It does seem that when Gandalf battled Sauron (the Tower) he did gain something of its plans.
[Susanita] ah ok
[Puma] although the wk had flown over anduin and caused the snow on caradhas
[Pete_R] I know, Christine, but the Professor said that it wasn’t spiritual. I had forgotten that. Thanks, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Sauron was massing his forces in Mordor, preparing to assault Gondor. So of course, he’d want his most powerful weapons there.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, okay, Pete. Thanks, I didn’t know that.
[Pete_R] me neither
[ChristineGolden] I really need to re-read Letters.
[Puma] also sauron was not ready to go to war….aragorn would later force his hand
[Darkover] Give the Dark Lord something to think about besides the Ring
[Pete_R] Sauron sorta panicked
[Demosthenes] But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Th?en, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power?
[Puma] and Demz….you can post pics of my jrr bookshelf for people to see
[Demosthenes] Yes after we’re done here
[Puma] okie
[Pete_R] brb
[ChristineGolden] So, are we done here?
[Demosthenes] I think so!
[Puma] i think we covered it well
[Darkover] I agree. What’s on for next week?
[Puma] great job Demz
[Demosthenes] Aragorn and Arwen next weekend.
Session Close: Sun May 05 09:47:18 2013

It is, of course, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen — the Hall of Fire topic for later today.

‘For a moment Aragorn gazed in silence, but fearing that she would pass away and never be seen again, he called to her crying, Tinúviel, Tinúviel! even as Beren had done in the Elder Days long ago.

Then the maiden turned to him and smiled, and she said: “Who are you? And why do you call the by that name?”

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen

Aragorn is only two years old when his father, Arathorn II, is slain by orcs. His mother, Gilraen, takes the heir of Isildur into hiding in Rivendell where Elrond Half-elven fosters him. And it is there, years later, that he meets Arwen Undomiel and falls in love. It is a meeting that will shape his life, the fate of Middle-earth, and eventually doom Arwen to a bitter parting from her father and her kin.

To what extent does this estrange Aragorn and Elrond? We think of the price that Arwen pays. Does Aragorn make sacrifices too?

Aragorn and Arwen reign for many years in Gondor and Arnor, but at last Aragorn grows weary and lays down his life. For the first time Arwen understands fully mortality. Cold and grey she seems to her people when she sets out from Minas Tirith and finally lays herself to rest on Cerin Amroth.

Tolkien uses beautiful imagery in this text. We shall look at how he particularly uses the twilight and the stars. Why does he liken Arwen to a White Tree? What do you think is meant by Arwen being the ‘Evenstar’ of her people? What does this tale tell us about the ordeals of Aragorn? Do you think Arwen loses all hope in the end?

And what of her gift to the Ringbearer?

Join us in the Hall of Fire today at 6pm EST when we’ll chat about The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Recommended reading

* Appendix A: the tale of Aragron and Arwen
* The Return of the King Book VI Ch VII Many Partings

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Bilbo set against Smaug by Ringer Skaan.

How?

Well, we also saw Smaug’s head buried in that selfsame pile. So the size of the coins gives us a basis for comparison.

Skaan then resized the Bilbo promo figure so the coins matched across both. Just check out the picture above. And I think we can all agree that Smaug is, indeed, impressively large.

Then I wondered, why not take this a step further? Why not see if we can use this comparison to as precisely as we can* calculate the size of Smaug’s eye, nostril and even his entire head?

And then we can maybe extrapolate a little to guess the length of Erebor’s winged worm.

Establishing a base measure: how big are the coins?

This is the first and most important step. If we can’t calculate the diameter of one of those gold coins, we’re stuffed.

Luckily, Weta in its wisdom has told us exactly how tall they believe Bilbo is. That particular factoid was revealed through Empire last year with a chart depicting the heights of the major characters. Bilbo? He’s 1.27 metres tall, apparently. That’s 4′ 2″ in the old scale.

Aside: that’s actually a little on the tall side. In Letter #27 Tolkien notes the height of the Hobbit: “Actual size – only important if other objects are in picture – say about three feet or three feet six inches”. By clear implication he means Bilbo, but that’s an objection for another time.

So then, in our aforementioned picture of Bilbo sprawled on the hoard, I found myself a coin that appeared to be flat and front on. Then I roughly deep-etched it in Photoshop. Now I have a sample coin from the hoard. It’s going to be our base measure.

But Bilbo is all curled up there. No way to measure the coin against Bilbo there. Surely we’re stuck.

Getting Bilbo’s full height

Luckily Photoshop can come to the rescue again.

There are plenty of full-length shots of Bilbo out there. I chose the bog-standard press shot that has Bilbo leaning against his walking stick with a grey, textured background. The fact that he’s leaning forward might affect the perspective a little, but probably not too much.

Of course, I can’t just start using that image. How do I know this particular Bilbo is the right size? So we have to resize Promo!Bilbo to match the proportions of Hoard!Bilbo.

I used the spacing of the eyes as a visual guide (see image at right).

And, using some nifty canvas expansion, layering, and proportion-matching we can make Promo!Bilbo more or less precisely match Hoard!Bilbo.

How many coins tall is Bilbo?

Now, we can finally start stacking those coins against our standardised Bilbo in Photoshop.

Turns out (see image below) Bilbo is as tall as 31 of those shiny, shiny gold coins. So, with a little simple division we discover that the diameter of one of Smaug’s gold coins is 4.09 centimetres (127 divided by 31).

That’s a reasonably sizeable coin, by the way. The largest of Australia’s coin denominations — the 50 cent piece — has a diameter of just a touch over three centimetres. The UK’s 50p coin is around 2.75cm and the Kiwi 50 cent coin is just a touch under 2.5cm across.

We’re only halfway there, though. Now we have to start looking at Hoard!Smaug.

Session Start: Sun Apr 28 07:14:46 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s chat topic: Earendil and Elwing | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin?
[Jenniearcheo] Chasin’ after sparklies rarely ends well in ME, it seems
[PippinForTheWin] hi demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready.
[Puma] Earendil….the start of all middle earth writtings
[Puma] welcome lightin thesky
[lightinthesky] thank you Puma
[Phil] welcome lightinthesky and Esther
[Demosthenes] jennie: No it doesn’t. I was thinking about that yesterday. Even when there’s notionally a happy ending, you’re left to wonder…
[Jenniearcheo] Hands burned, bitten off, etc . . .
[Esther] Thanks Phil
[Jenniearcheo] Fingers, too
[Demosthenes] Do Earendil and Elwing counter this at all?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they end up with one, but not because they were chasing after it with murderous purpose
[Puma] so….jrr was beginning to invent what later became quenya….and felt a language needed a legend….earendil was the start of the whole saga
[Esther] I didn’t know that Puma
[Puma] the very 1st lines jrr wrote of middle earth were about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] wow Puma didn’t know that
[Puma] so of great import.the start of it all
[ChristineGolden] And yet, he never finished it.
[sam] ello
[Demosthenes] jennie: Purity of purpose seems to be why they achieve what they do.
[Darkover] greetings, all!
[PippinForTheWin] hey sam
[Esther] the first words about earendil, are they in the hobbit, or where can they be found
[Puma] earendil still remains mostly legend…as does gil-galad
[PippinForTheWin] hey darkover!
[sam] sil
[Darkover] Hiya, PippinFTW!
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover.
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Well. At least he gets to sail around the skies and all.
[Jenniearcheo] What’s left to go back to at this point, anyway?
[Darkover] Howdy, Chris, Jennie, Demosthenes, Puma, and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] I hope she likes her tower.
[Puma] it was just 2 lines jrr wrote about earendil that started it all
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they get cable
[Esther] I wish they could be found
[ChristineGolden] It seems that the characters with great ‘destinies’ aren’t fated to be happy-ever-after.
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, they could have returned to their kids, not that either mother or father seemed much concerned about their twins.
[Puma] they are easy to find Esther.i think it is even in wiki about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] nobody really seems to live happily ever after, do they Christine?
[Esther] thanks Puma I’ll have a look sometime
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, sorta, “Oh, man. They got captured. Ah well. Let’s go for a sail!”
[Darkover] Maybe their is no happily ever after, except in Valinor
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe says that Earendil was born to journey to Valinor, Darkover.
[Puma] earendil was also one of most stable names….never changing…but from earendel to earendil
[Esther] very interesting
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, I’m just saying I wouldn’t give him any father of the year awards
[Puma] jrr changes most names
[Demosthenes] Darkover: even those who live in Valinor are locked to the fate of the world. So I guess elves don’t really have a happy ending.
[lightinthesky] christinegolden Earendil was, as I have read, a gift to middle-earth by the valar
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the winds and tides and whatnot kept blowing him away, until he was supposed to make it.
[Demosthenes] More of a mysterious one.
[sam] he has the blood of three races
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t give many of them “parent of the year” award, Darkover.
[Esther] I’ve read the hobbit but I am taking a very long time to get through FOTR lol
[Darkover] As I said on a previous chat, Demosthenes, Elves seem to get “contented ever after,” rather than “happily.”
[Darkover] True, Chris
[Puma] no earendil only had the blodd of 2 races
[ChristineGolden] They kept blowing him away until Elwing brought the Silmaril.
[Puma] elwing has the blood of 3
[PippinForTheWin] there are a lot of people that don’t deserve the parent of the year award… like Denethor?
[Jenniearcheo] How old were the twins at this point?
[Demosthenes] Does Earendil get a contented ever after?
[sam] no 3
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he gets the girl
[Esther] PippinForTheWin I agree about Denethor
[Puma] i think he does in a way Demz
[Jenniearcheo] And he gets to sail.
[Darkover] Denethor could have been a better dad, PippinFTW, but at least he never abandoned his kids
[Darkover] and there are differences between book and movie Denethor
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i always thought that was interesting. Another example of you need a mate to succeed in Middle-earth.
[PippinForTheWin] he would abandon Faramir if he could, Darkover… if he had another son maybe
[ChristineGolden] Usually, Demosthenes, even if it isn’t a love interest.
[sam] his grandparents were miar elf
[Esther] again I agree with PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] I’m not sure Earendil even gets “contented,” Demosthenes. I mean, he said he was weary of the world, and yet every night, he has to fly some star through the sky or whatever
[Darkover] Not much chance of getting a rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Has to or gets to?
[sam] his father human
[Demosthenes] ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father
[Puma] but earendil gets to rest every day also…..with his wife
[Darkover] That could make a difference, I admit, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Does he?
[Esther] really these chats should be about random topics lol
[ChristineGolden] I’ve known lots of guys like that, Darkover – always gotta have something to do, work on, fiddle with.
[Demosthenes] He does get the Silmaril. Some folk would be happy with that.
[Elentari] Earendil made the choice of his fate-I’m not sure he would have chosen to be miserable
[Darkover] Could be, Chris, that Earendil is one of them, and keeping busy at his cosmic task is his way of being fulfilled, or it could be he just sees it as a responsibility
[Puma] Esther.too many random topics….Denethor is so complex.he could be a HoF topic of his own
[ChristineGolden] That never made sense to me, Demosthenes. One of the reasons Earendil supposedly kept sailing was to find his parents.
[Darkover] And has been, Puma, but I agree, Denethor should be for another time.
[Raurenkili] Earendil and elwing, right?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought that was before. On the water
[Darkover] Right, Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] So, why would he be upset about being judged among the elves if his parents were?
[Jenniearcheo] When he was stll trying to get to Valinor in the first place
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Raurenkili
[Puma] and i am sure Earendil did get to see tuor and idril again
[Esther] that is true Puma but I don’t have a lot of info about jrr or middle earth other then a few books and the movies
[Darkover] I don’t believe Earendil disliked the Elves, Chris–I think he just preferred Men
[Jenniearcheo] I read that more as a wistful saying-goodbye to his human heritage
[Puma] Earendil….took after his father
[Darkover] And whenever someone in M-E has a choice like his to make, he or she must be sundered from one species or the other.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Sometimes they go the other way
[Demosthenes] what does “weary of the world” mean?
[Darkover] At least, until the absolute end of Arda
[Jenniearcheo] Sick of war?
[Darkover] Tired of M-E? Sick of fighting?
[Darkover] Sick of having to make choices?
[Puma] weary of the world is different for the various races
[Demosthenes] the haven at the mouths of the sirion had been sacked
[Esther] sick of everything
[lightinthesky] I’d say Earendil was “weary of the world” as in the meaning of he had sailed through everthing, and became sick of it.
[Elentari] tired of the burdens placed on him by mortals
[Puma] and elves
[Demosthenes] Could the Silmaril have wearied him?
[ChristineGolden] Isn’t it that they become tired of the swift passage of time on ME?
[Demosthenes] I wondered that
[Elentari] plus, he wanted his mommy and daddy
[Esther] that seems accurate Christine
[Jenniearcheo] Then? When he made the choice? Had he had it much at that point?
[Demosthenes] jewnnie: hard to know how long they sailed for
[Puma] earendil was also lord of the havens…apparently you can inherit that position thri the female line
[Jenniearcheo] It was on her necklace for most of the time, wasn’t it?
[lunarising] i would think the Simaril would have been wearing
[Puma] thru
[Darkover] Or maybe, once you’ve seen the Valar and Valinor, you get tired of M-E
[lightinthesky] i agree with darkover
[Esther] I have to read the silmarillion for the first time Phil, if I could find it
[Darkover] Thanks, lightinthesky
[Jenniearcheo] She gave it to him, but you’d think he’d have given it back if it was weighing on him overmuch
[Puma] sil is easy to find
[lunarising] darkover: that’s always been my thinking
[Darkover] thank you, lunarising
[Demosthenes] The Valar do somehow seem to change him after?
[Darkover] I think so, Demosthenes
[Puma] yes.they do…..although eru did that
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing are given a choice
[Demosthenes] Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.
[ChristineGolden] It was the beacon leading Vingelot (sp?) to Valinor, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, most normal men wouldn’t put up with the whole flying through the stars for eternity thing
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Demosthenes] He becomes something not-human; not-elf … not entirely of the World anymore.
[Darkover] Kind of like Socrates’ “men in the cave”–once you’ve seen what else is out there, what you came from dims in comparison, and no one wants to hear about it, anyway
[lightinthesky] i mean, in apply to what darkover is saying, all the elves were longing for valinor at some point of their long, immortal lives. So it’s fair to say that he was sick of M-E and so became weary of M-E
[Elentari] Earendil went to Valinor and ever after was unsatisfied with normal life
[Romeniel] Earendil choses not to stay in Valinor, but become the Mariner who then sails the sky as the morning star
[Romeniel] his wife stayed at the shores of Valinor to greet him every day as a seabird
[Puma] and flew up to meet him
[lightinthesky] how nice of her
[Darkover] Did Earendil actually *choose* to become the Star Mariner, or was he appointed?
[lightinthesky] imo, he chose himself to be that
[Demosthenes] Yes those are the facts given in Silmarillion, Romeniel
[Romeniel] he and his wife had the last know Silmaril and he chose himself
[Puma] it seems form evidence.appointed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Earendil was a sailor at heart.
[lightinthesky] or wait.
[lightinthesky] yeah, christinegolden said it before me
[Darkover] I’m talking about his nightly voyage through the sky, you understand
[Phil] well it was either becoming the mariner or death i think
[ChristineGolden] He would have chosen, Darkover; Tolkien was real big on free will.
[Romeniel] Earendil I think was a sailor at heart anyway… it is said that this was part of the nature of his people anyway
[lightinthesky] I was about to say that, he was born with the name “lover of the sea”
[Elentari] i’m pretty sure he wanted to
[Darkover] That sounds reasonable, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Ulmo says this was his “doom”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Lover of the Sea sails high above it forever.
[Romeniel] no, he would just have had to leave Valinor for the choice he made
[lightinthesky] in a way he was both appointed, by fate and/or was destined to be it.
[Darkover] Well, “doom” doesn’t sound like something he would love to do anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Doom isn’t always negative
[Demosthenes] It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’ But Ulmo said: ‘For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?’
[ChristineGolden] Earendil sure had a lot of “doom” in his life, Demosthenes.
[Puma] doom in the sense given means fate
[Esther] I think I’m gonna have to come back for a topic I actually know a lot about lol
[Myra] same XD
[Jenniearcheo] What is Mandos’s problem?
[Demosthenes] He broke the Ban.
[Darkover] I think Mandos is just a person who takes his job very seriously, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] First, he survives the fall of Gondolin, then is kidnapped by one of Feanor’s sons. His parents sail off while Morgoth’s minions are rampaging through ME…
[Jenniearcheo] Dude should lighten up.
[Puma] a special ruling was made for earendil and elwing
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing were something between mortal and imortal… their story was the reason why never ever after something like a true Halfelf could ever be… any Elf who wed a Mortal would be forced to give up their immortality,
[Romeniel] Only two besides Earendil and Elwing who were able to chose their fate were their sons… Elrond and Elendil
[Puma] no Romeniel……idril gave up not her immortality
[Esther] I’m gonna go as well
[Jenniearcheo] Or at least had to choose
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Esther
[Romeniel] Idril was BEFORE Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] Bye, Esther, but come back again sometime
[Esther] I’ll keep this in mind though for a topic I know a lot about though lol
[ChristineGolden] Idril kept her immortality, Romeniel. Tuor, although a man, was judged as one of the firstborn.
[Darkover] The only one ever to get that distinction, I believe
[Puma] so tuor and idril had special fates also
[Jenniearcheo] About Tuor . . . where did he wind up? In Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I believe so, Darkover.
[Romeniel] And they came before Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] I think so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] According to the “Fall of Gondolin,” yes, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] If so, what’s the deal about Earendil being the “first” man to set foot there?
[Jenniearcheo] Or was Tuor dubbed “firstborn” on the shoreline?
[Darkover] Well, the first one to show up without permission, Jennie
[Romeniel] But ever since Earendil and Elwing Elves would have to chose between love and immortality… thus the choice of Arwen
[Puma] but the fate of tuor and idril is closely related to earendil…
[ChristineGolden] I think the text is silent on that one, Jen.
[Darkover] Tuor, as I understand it, was made a sort of honorary Elf
[Jenniearcheo] Except that he’d been kept away by wind and waves until then
[Demosthenes] Tuor would have run into the same issue: either a violator of the ban (by virtue of Noldorin adoption) or a Man.
[Romeniel] no rule wihtout exception
[Puma] now in the early writtings……elrond existed…elros did not exist till well after
[Romeniel] in the early writing Elrond wasn’t even a Halfelf
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Mandos was in a good mood when Tuor turned up. Maybe Ulmo made him a sweet dinner of shrimp scampi to butter him up first.
[Romeniel] he was just an Elffriend
[Darkover] And were Elrond and Elros actually twins? I believe they were, but does Tolkien ever actually state that?
[ChristineGolden] lol, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ohhh, why not. Where did that wine bottle go?”
[Romeniel] Elrond and Elros were twins
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they just ended up on Tol Eressea. Which seems to go by different rules.
[Darkover] Thank you, Romeniel and Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Sort of a doorstep island?
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s in LT.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they came after Earendil and Elwing.
[Romeniel] Elrond tended to feel more drawn to his mother’s choice to live as an Elf, Elros was favoring to be human
[Puma] from tol eressea you can visit eldamar and valmar.but not live there
[Romeniel] that is why Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins
[Darkover] Yes indeed, and from Elros, the kings of Numenor were descended
[Romeniel] distant, but cousins
[Jenniearcheo] Several times removed, of course
[Darkover] *Extremely* distant cousins
[Romeniel] Elrond is Aragorns… grandgrandgrandgrand…..xxxxx uncle
[Puma] more than 50x removed
[Jenniearcheo] “Several” being loosely defined
[ChristineGolden] That’s possible, Demosthenes, but it seems to be one of Tolkien’s “some things remain hidden” details.
[Demosthenes] I always liked Occam’s razor
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Tuor was “eventually” considered firstborn
[Puma] jrr left little hidden….he just left it to us to figure out the answers
[Lady_Celebrian] o.O
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Earendil’s three companions got the better deal?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “vague” rather than hidden
[Romeniel] sweet talking to you guys, but I need to head and sail the skies… sort of… in my dreams
[Jenniearcheo] Sure. Back to ME. No job to do.
[Puma] sweet dreams Romeniel
[Jenniearcheo] No sweet Elf wives, but perhaps that wasn’t their aim
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Romeniel
[Demosthenes] Then at the bidding of the Valar Eönwë went to the shore of Aman, where the companions of Eärendil still remained, awaiting tidings; and he took a boat, and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the East with a great wind.
[Darkover] Maybe, as readers of Tolkien, we are supposed to bear in mind that he wrote most of these stories as if he were a historian or some kind of scholar passing down historical information. In other words, somebody living years after the events happened, so in order to make it realistic, he would be fuzzy on details that couldn’t be ascertained.
[ChristineGolden] I was referring to a quote of his, although I don’t recall the exact words. Simply put, we’re not supposed to know everyting.
[Darkover] Chris just summed up what I was trying to say.
[Jenniearcheo] heh
[Puma] well….the 3 sailors….were sent back for a purpose….so they could tell other people
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes. ME was about to explode into the War of Wrath. I know I’d skip that one if I could.
[Jenniearcheo] Trrue
[Jenniearcheo] Hardly a happy clappy time
[Demosthenes] So … try not to get touched by fate in Middle-earth … it usually ends bittersweet at best?
[ChristineGolden] What were they going to tell? They were on the boats the whole time.
[Puma] jrr due to his early life….did have a rather fatalistic view
[Darkover] If you have a destiny/doom, life is not rosy, true, Demosthenes
[Puma] the long defeat
[ChristineGolden] Is that possible, Demosthenes? Everyone has a fate – it just may not be a major one that changes the worl.
[ChristineGolden] It was the RC in him, Puma.
[Darkover] But he still had the attitude that evil must be resisted, regardless of whether or not you have a realistic chance of defeating it.
[Puma] correct
[Demosthenes] And, regardless, together Earendil and Elwing achieve a great good for their people.
[Jenniearcheo] History doesn’t record what happened to those three. They could’ve been on another ship when it all went down, missing the whole thing
[Demosthenes] Without them it seems that Morgoth would have ruled Middle-earth forever?
[Puma] it was said.a wind was made to send them back
[Jenniearcheo] I meant after that, Puma. During the War
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, men and elves couldn’t defeat one of the Valar, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] They sacrifice their … links … to the wider world for the benefit of that world.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil and Elwing complete the cycle of the Silmarillion.
[Puma] remember…the noldor even in the evils they did….fulfilled the wishes of eru….morgoth was bottled up in the north….instead of ranging over all arda
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, for sure. Pleading the case in Valinor, and getting the army mobilized. Certainly saved the world from Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that it was held intact
[Demosthenes] Earendil must have been very eloquent
[Demosthenes] That or the Silmaril somehow helped?
[Demosthenes] one wonders.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe he has Ulmo’s scampi recipe
[ChristineGolden] The story begins with the creation of the jewels and ends with their “disposal,” along with the rise and fall of Morgoth.
[Darkover] At last, a Silmaril was being put to good use
[Darkover] Even Maglor said so
[Puma] Earendil it was said…..spoke in quenya.sindarin….and hadorian
[Jenniearcheo] I feel sorry for Maglor.
[Demosthenes] And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds.
[Demosthenes] Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need.
[Demosthenes] And his prayer was granted.
[ChristineGolden] He was given a choice by Eonwe, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah, but if it wasn’t for Maedhros, he’d have given up on the Silmarils
[Puma] perhaps….or maybe the oath was just delayed for him
[Darkover] For all we know, Maglor could still be walking M-E
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he certainly seemed the more reasonable of the brothers
[Demosthenes] or this from Many Meetings:
[Demosthenes] He came unto the timeless halls
[Demosthenes] where shining fall the countless years,
[Demosthenes] and endless reigns the Elder King
[Demosthenes] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
[Demosthenes] and words unheard were spoken then
[Demosthenes] of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
[Demosthenes] beyond the world were visions showed
[Demosthenes] forbid to those that dwell therein.
[ChristineGolden] Every person has to make their own choices in Tolkien’s world.
[Jenniearcheo] Whining about his hand
[Puma] i always have taken it……..that maglor threw his silmaril in the sea…because he had seen elwing go into the sea with a silmaril…and it was next seen in the sky.did he hope throwing his in the sea would have the same result
[Demosthenes] Bilbo’s version is a little grimmer. Maybe.
[Darkover] I always thought he was trying to get rid of it because it burned him, Puma, and because he was just mightily sick of the oath
[Puma] that too
[ChristineGolden] The Silmarillion says it was because of the searing pain, Puma.
[Puma] remember.the sil is chris.not jrr
[Puma] and reasons can be very complex
[ChristineGolden] It is both of them, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] He edited the Sil, but he wasn’t the primary author
[Demosthenes] It’s always possible to debate “why?”
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, the only author
[Puma] well……….not really
[ChristineGolden] He was a co-author and editor.
[Puma] if you read the later sil as jrr wrote it.its nothing like chris wrote
[Jenniearcheo] Christopher pulled all sorts of things together. But they were his father’s things
[Demosthenes] It is what we have though
[Puma] chris also invented things jrr never did
[ChristineGolden] From what I understand, Puma, there were some pretty huge gapping holes in parts of the Silmarillion. Not to mention competing drafts.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing was much as jrr left it
[Puma] there were Chrsitine
[Jenniearcheo] As has been pointed out, Earendil was fairly early on
[Puma] but only in parts
[ChristineGolden] I have a question.
[Demosthenes] Shoot.
[ChristineGolden] Melian was a Maiar and was able to “assume” a body for her stay on earth.
[Puma] yes
[ChristineGolden] So did Luthien her daughter.
[Puma] no
[ChristineGolden] So, I wonder if this was a “trait” handed down and if so, is that what happened to Elwing when she assumed the shape of birds.
[Darkover] Luthien was born in M-E, wasn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Yes Darkover
[Darkover] And I thought one of the Valar transformed Elwing
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo
[Jenniearcheo] Ulmo.
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] She was down in his sea
[Puma] and ulmo was the most connected vala with the exiles and men
[Demosthenes] Why Ulmo? That seems odd as Manwe is the lord of the air.
[Demosthenes] Tuor’s emblem was a swan though, so that’s apposite.
[Darkover] Well, I guess Ulmo didn’t want her drowning in his area
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . it was a seabird, wasn’t it?
[Demosthenes] He could have made her a flying fish?
[Jenniearcheo] And she flew to a ship. The air was only incidental to it all.
[Darkover] Then she couldn’t have gone to land, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo was different from all the other valar….he was the only one that never lost faith in eru
[Jenniearcheo] I think she had a ways to go to get to the ship
[Darkover] Uh, where are you getting that, Puma?
[Jenniearcheo] Nearly killed her, even as a bird
[Puma] from jrr
[Demosthenes] For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.
[Darkover] Doesn’t exactly narrow it down, Puma
[ChristineGolden] No, I’m talking about when Elwing was in Valinor. She often assumed the shape of a bird and flew out to greet Earendil.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring….
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, then.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, I guess once she had done it once, it became a skill
[Jenniearcheo] Well, maybe she liked the bird thing
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or maybe she learned it permanently from the maiar in Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I wonder if this was a power handed down from Melian to Luthien to Elwing. Because no other elves that I recall change form.
[Jenniearcheo] True! Luthien did that, too
[Jenniearcheo] Hmm
[Demosthenes] Well, both Luthien and Finrod assume a guise … but it an illusion, not a true shapechange.
[Puma] i would ahve to think that over.i am not sure
[Darkover] I’m still inclined to doubt that it was an inheirited trait, Chris. I think it was a gift bestowed on her by Ulmo, although that is just my opinion
[Jenniearcheo] Except she was actually flying, Dems
[Demosthenes] So yes, what Elwing does seems exceptional.
[Puma] i agree with you darkover
[ChristineGolden] Not a trait, Darkover, but a power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Elwing’s nature made the bestowal of the gift possible.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Darkover] Now that makes more sense, what Demosthenes suggests
[Demosthenes] Like opening a tap that was previously shut-off.
[Puma] it was said birds taught her to fly….not that she became a bird
[Demosthenes] So both are needed
[Demosthenes] Each is necessary, but insufficient on their own.
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (i love using that maths logic)
[Jenniearcheo] mhmm
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] It’s an idea anyhow.
[ChristineGolden] “and her wings were of white and silver-grey.”
[Darkover] sounds like an unusually pretty seagull
[Jenniearcheo] Does Bilbo describe Vingilot more than the Sil does?
[Demosthenes] So in this way, i guess Elwing is as much changed by this as Earendil is.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing always remain elusive….we never actually see their personalities
[Jenniearcheo] And apparent armor and weapons on Earendil.
[Jenniearcheo] Is he making all that up?
[ChristineGolden] “the far-sighted among he eles that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining…”
[Darkover] Perhaps because, as the “historian,” Tolkien was just describing the big things they did, and the significance of those events, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: Elrond might have known?
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, maybe. Maybe when he tells the story it’s more complete than we’re reading it
[Puma] like a white bird.does not mean a white bird
[Demosthenes] Presumably, Glorfindel would have some knowledge of the “true” tale.
[ChristineGolden] I’d say because it is a story of deeds, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And not just a handed-down tradition.
[Jenniearcheo] Was he back to life by then?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m only skipping through this book
[Puma] its part of a muth cycle….some is detailed.other parts not
[Jenniearcheo] I’m saving Turin for a time when I’m unaccountably happy and need to come back down
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember him being mentioned in The Silmarillion after the fall of Gondolin, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, so maybe he’s still dead at this point
[Puma] no
[Jenniearcheo] ?
[Puma] jrr explicitly says there is 1 glorfindel
[Demosthenes] jennie: dunno. I mean he’s definitely back in middle-earth in the second age.
[Darkover] Where?
[Puma] he was part of the plan
[ChristineGolden] Turin is a tough one for me, too, Jen.
[Puma] that is in peoples of middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I’m bracing myself.
[Puma] since glorfindel had little sin….and in saving earendil furtherd fate….he was released soon from mados
[Demosthenes] Does it say when soon?
[Puma] and he returned to middle earth…about 1600 2nd age
[Darkover] Yes, “soon” can be a very broad term among those who are immortal or nearly so
[ChristineGolden] “soon” in elven time could be several centuries.
[Jenniearcheo] So still dead
[Puma] yes.soon is broad
[Puma] no glorfinel was rebodied and returned
[Darkover] Glorfindel also died a very brave death, so that may have been a factor
[Puma] elves do get new bodies….after a time
[Demosthenes] jennie: I propose that he might have picked up knowledge of the tale of Earendil while he was residing in Valinor. And brought that back with him. Presumably Elrond would be interested if no-one else.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, the Sil just says, “But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away from Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, etc. etc.”
[ChristineGolden] I do think that it’s interesting that it took all of the Valar to defeat Morgoth and to destroy Angband.
[Demosthenes] How accurate or complete that tale was… hard to say.
[Jenniearcheo] “Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright.”
[Jenniearcheo] No mention of mithril and elven glass
[Darkover] Well, Good plays by rules, Jennie. Evil does not.
[Demosthenes] however:
[Demosthenes] `Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
[Demosthenes] Bilbo got up and bowed. `I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
[Puma] i think in part.glorfindel returned…to protect elrond…the last of the line of turgon
[Jenniearcheo] Nor a silver mast
[Demosthenes] So, Bilbo’s version must have been ok?
[Puma] yes
[Demosthenes] What is allowable exaggeration for an elf?
[Puma] he had records in rivendell.and living witnesses
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, nobody was all, “Mithril and elven glass? What!?”
[Demosthenes] poetic license if you will
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien began a Lay of Earendil, but I don’t think he ever finished it.
[Puma] he might have had some poetic liscense
[Darkover] Presumably, Bilbo’s version had no great errors, although he mentions that Aragorn warned him it was cheeky to make verses about Earendil in Elrond’s house.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ebony arrows? C’mooon:
[Darkover] So, his poem need not have been entirely accurate, either.
[Demosthenes] Well, the language is reminscent of Paradise Lost
[Puma] that just means black
[Demosthenes] Which is highly mythological.
[ChristineGolden] And allegorical, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, no, Puma. They’re talking materials throughout
[Jenniearcheo] His bow was made of dragon horn
[Demosthenes] Maybe Bilbo’s poem is meant to convey the same sort of legendary feel
[Jenniearcheo] his arrows shorn of ebony
* Puma nods
[Jenniearcheo] of silver whas his habergeon (whatever the heck that is)
[Jenniearcheo] his scabbard of chalcedony
[Puma] remember…jrr knew more meanings of words than we do
[Demosthenes] and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.’
[Jenniearcheo] his sword of steel was valiant (his sword?)
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s why Aragorn says that
[Jenniearcheo] of adamant his helmet tall
[Puma] would take a lots of research it narrow down any of his words
[Jenniearcheo] Because his descriptions were a bit on the flowery side, Dems?
[Demosthenes] Yah. I think so. Not because it’s factually incorrect.
[ChristineGolden] a habergeon is like a vest, Jen, think chain mail.
[Jenniearcheo] So Aragorn insisted on the emerald on Earendil’s breast?
[Puma] the elessar
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t say flowery as much as detailed. Tolkien was big on visual descriptions.
[Darkover] Right. Bilbo didn’t know why Aragorn was so insistent about that.
[Puma] and it did take cheek for bilbo to write a poem about elronds dad
[Demosthenes] In one tale in Unfinsihed Tales, the original Elessar stone was made in gondolin
[Puma] aragorn held both in reverence
[dwalin] k
[Jenniearcheo] RE habergeon. Thanks, ChristineGolden
[dwalin] is there anybody
[Demosthenes] I expect it’s a link in that way.
[Jenniearcheo] Lovely old words. Like Calacirian
[ChristineGolden] No problem. (I once did Camelot.)
[Darkover] Cool, Chris
[dwalin]
[Jenniearcheo] Sorry
[Jenniearcheo] I meant something else and can’t find it now
[dwalin] hey chris do you remmeber me
[Jenniearcheo] carcanet. That’s it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Bilbo’s version also talks about Earendil tarrying on errantry
[Demosthenes] But in silm, Tirion is deserted
[Puma] good chat all…..very enjoyable….i have to head out
[Jenniearcheo] Seems flowery to me
[Demosthenes] (i wonder why it was deserted)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I don’t remember how, dwalin.
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Darkover] bye, Puma
[Demosthenes] He tarried there from errantry,
[Demosthenes] and melodies they taught to him,
[Demosthenes] and sages old him marvels told,
[Demosthenes] and harps of gold they brought to him.
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, I’m terrible with names.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bilbo doesn’t mention Earendil leaving his poor wife waiting around standing in the danged water.
[Demosthenes] Nor the three mariners?
[Jenniearcheo] Details, details
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] k
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was trying to save her from the possible wrath of the Valar, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I know. Bilbo just skips over the whole thing.
[Demosthenes] jennie: which is interesting. there are little divergences.
[Jenniearcheo] I like how she makes friends with the locals, though
[Darkover] Well, when you’re composing or singing a heroic lay, you do tend to dwell on the heroic parts, and ignore the rest
[dwalin] does spmebody
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true enough!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, any other points on this topic?
[Darkover] I think we’ve about summed it up
[Demosthenes] jennie thanks for bringing up the poem.
[Jenniearcheo]
[dwalin] i know
[Demosthenes] And the fancy words.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for mentioning it in the intro page
[ChristineGolden] I think we covered the main points, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m glad I found carcanet
[Jenniearcheo] I’d gone and looked it up
[Demosthenes] Okay, i think we’re done. Thanks everyone! Next week we’ll discuss “the white rider”.
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad you could come, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Back to “Two Towers, then?
[Demosthenes] Yes
[Jenniearcheo] Yes
[ChristineGolden] Btw, thanks for including the reading list, Demosthenes, in the chat announcement. I really liked that.
[Demosthenes] then aragorn and arwen after that
[dwalin] cherers dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Thanks for the chat, people. See you all next time!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, that was very helpful, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] I’ll try to remember to put in a reading list from now on
[Demosthenes] seeya Darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye, all
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Apr 28 09:30:25 2013

“The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him.” The White Rider.

The Two Towers: Book III, Chapter V — The White Rider

As Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli follow the trail of Merry and Pippin through Fangorn Forest, they chance upon a mysterious old man robed in white. Or, perhaps, the mysterious old man chances upon them.

His appearance and enigmatic words lead the trio to conclude they are facing the White Council turncoat, Saruman the White. Luckily for them, it’s an old friend bearing some crucial news.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday May 4 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the Two Towers chapter The White Rider.

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Also, TORn regular Puma linked this excellent Youtube video of JRR Tolkien reading from the chapter when the Ents come from Entmoot to march on Isengard.

Session Start: Sun Apr 21 07:26:47 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s topic: The Two Towers. Treebeard!!! | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Let’s start and people can catch up?
[Jenniearcheo] It’s more involved than I remember
[Xanaseb] tis the looooong one yup?
[Demosthenes] jennie: truth
[sunshower] it is long
[Erestel] Hello! What’s the current Treebeard discussion?
[Pete_R] No, Jennie, I was imitating that famous Ent from Brooklyn, Ralph Kramden
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[sunshower] let’s!
[Puma] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPV63iW6gFM
[Xanaseb] yup
[Jenniearcheo] Erestel: We are discussing the unexpected length of the chapter
[Puma] that link is a good way to start
[sunshower] haha Jenniearcheo
[Jenniearcheo] lol Pete
[Puma] jrr himself
[Demosthenes] jennie: i like that as a starting point. It’s surprising … and yet not really.
[Xanaseb] haha nice Puma.
[sunshower] fits with Ent talk
[Xanaseb] indeeed
[Xanaseb] very well hehe
[Puma] nothing like the masters voice
[Jenniearcheo] Well, no forest is worth describing if it doesn’t take a long time to describe.
[Pete_R] I love hearing Tolkien read his stries
[Agonold] It takes a while to say anything in entish, let alone read about such amazing creatures
[Xanaseb] o.o though his ‘to Isengard’ really grates the ears lolol
[Puma] its upposed to
[Xanaseb] yup, desired effect
[Erestel] Ah, yes. A chapter as slow as the mannerisms of the old ent himself.
[Puma] hobbits covered their ears
[laughing_gull] I love that, never heard it before
[Jenniearcheo] I’m more interested in their on-again-off-again relationship with the elves
[Darkover] Jennie, I got the impression the Elves were interested in the Elves once, but no longer
[Jenniearcheo] hah
[Darkover] sorry, Ents
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I thought you meant that.
[Puma] well.to me this chapter introduces us to one of most original creatures in all literature
[Darkover] By this Age, the Elves weren’t interested in much except the past
[Jenniearcheo] As they’re fading, and all
[sunshower] self centered those Elves
[Pete_R] but elves are always interested in elves.
[Darkover] yes, I was unitentionally funny
[Puma] gday Darkover
[Agonold] On Jennie’s point, if anyone here plays LOTRO, an elf complete nerds out when he gets to meet an ent.
[Darkover] howdy, Puma
[Xanaseb] lol.
[Demosthenes] puma: i think it’s more than just their appearance.
[Agonold] It’s like a little kid meeting mickey mouse
[Xanaseb] well, I think the Ents are quite their own overall.. though it’s hinted that they were more.. open?.. in the past
[Demosthenes] There are plenty of novel-looking creatures dished out in fantasy settings.
[Puma] well….other than ents teaching ents to speak…and yes.treebeard had met celeborn and galadriel…we dont know of any ent/elf interaction
[Erestel] When’s that, Agonold? I remember killing a rouge ent at one point and meeting one on the shores of Nenuial.
[Erestel] *rogue
[Agonold] Erestel, its during the epic quest, you meet him just outside of the raided orc camp near the end of the entwash arc with the rest of the crew.
[Puma] so where shall we start?
[Demosthenes] What makes ents unique?
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the walking trees thing?
[Xanaseb] what makes them unique ??????!!…..
[Xanaseb] lol……
[miriel] dems: everything?
[Puma] well….many things make ents unique
[Puma] language
[Darkover] I’m not sure they would say Ents are unique. They remind me of male dryads, actually
[Jenniearcheo] Not many other species transmogrify between plant and critter and back
[Pete_R] and sentient (?) thought
[Darkover] I think dryads were originally female, I mean
[Xanaseb] Darkover… unique in Middle-Earth anyhow
[Puma] i dont know of any middle earth creature as strong as ents
[Darkover] true, Xanaseb
[laughing_gull] I think their relative unknown-ness makes them pretty unique in Middle-Earth
[Darkover] Trolls are, I think, but then, trolls are the dark version of Ents, I believe
[Jenniearcheo] They stand up in the rain to sleep?
[Darkover] as orcs are of elves
[Pete_R] I’d like to see a wresting match between an ent and a troll
[Agonold] according to Treebeard, Sauron was jealous and based trolls off of the ents.
[Xanaseb] lol Pete inded.
[Darkover] Right, Agonold, as I just said
[Erestel] I’d say an ent is stronger than a troll. Trolls can’t split stone with their voice.
[Puma] trolls/ent was just treebeards theory….he is not all knowing
[miriel] indeed Darkover and Agonold
[Darkover] neither can Ents, so far as I know, Erestel
[Darkover] they can tear stone as if it is paper, but not with their voices
[Pete_R] I aree, Erestel, but I still would like to see them fight
[Puma] yes.ents did split stone with their voices
[Erestel] I remember something being said about the power of their voice in battle, during the battle of Isengard.
[Darkover] Maybe it is just as well it takes time for an Ent to make up his mind about a person–not a good idea to get on their bad side
[Puma] it is there Erestel
[Pete_R] but it makes sense, Ouma, since he made orcs based on (eand from) elves
[Pete_R] Puma, not Ouma
[Puma] no.jrr had many theories about orc origins
[Darkover] After all, Puma, neither Sauron nor Morgoth could create–they could only corrupt
[Puma] he decided it was not elves
[Pete_R] since when? I didn;t read that
[Darkover] I don’t recall that, either, Puma
[laughing_gull] I’m pretty sure in LOTR they originated from elves
[sunshower] Treebeard mentions that these Orcs may be corrupted men?
[Puma] have you read HOME 10-11.its in one of those 2
[Demosthenes] I wondered, reading this chapter, whether Ents were the most patient creatures in middle-earth … or the greatest brooders.
[Pete_R] He did say that, and if he recanted later, I missed it
[Darkover] Maybe both, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (maybe one is just the flipside of the other)
[Demosthenes] GMTA Darkover
[miriel] the slowest, certainly
[Erestel] There were several different explanations for the origins of Orcs, but as far as I know the only one that made it into official canon is Elf corruption by Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] The ultimate Middle Earth couch potatoes
[Puma] i think ents are like the forest….not seeming to do much
[Pete_R] Well, ents *are* slow to anger, so that makes them patient, I guess
[Xanaseb] I think they are devoid of many of the characteristics of humans, elves and dwarves.. the nastier sorts…
[Darkover] GMTA? Demosthenes?
[Xanaseb] well there’s no evidence for it in anycase
[laughing_gull] They are slow and contemplative but that makes them grow strong
[sunshower] well, Pete_R–Treebeard did have a bit of an outburst right off the bat
[laughing_gull] so I wouldn’t call them couch potatoes
[Puma] true Xana….right off treebeard treats the hobbit in a kindly manner
[sunshower] he did catch himself though
[Jenniearcheo] Great minds, Darkover
[Demosthenes] But we see that Treebeard has been thinking a long long time … and that seems to play into the extent of their anger when they do get annoyed.
[Darkover] Thank you, Jennie
[Pete_R] which outburst, sunshower?
[sunshower] “I will stop it” he boomed
[Demosthenes] In fact, Treebeard says that his first instinct was to squash merry and pippin.
[Puma] till he heard their voices
[Pete_R] but thankfully, he wasn’t hasty
[Demosthenes] Ents are a bit wild?
[Darkover] Happily, he didn’t. Again, it’s a good thing Ents aren’t “hasty.”
[Puma] yes
[Pete_R] I guess that shows that ents *can* act quickly, if ned be.
[Puma] ents are the wild side of nature
[Puma] entwives the tame side of nature
[Jenniearcheo] laughing_gull: My point was the fact that Treebeard had known for some time about Saruman’s dirty deeds but admits he should have done something and didn’t. Then, too, sometimes ents become treelike if they aren’t active
[laughing_gull] true Jennie!
[Darkover] I suspect in earlier Ages, they were not so somnolent.
[Xanaseb] Dems wilder maybe… but also less marred by evil conscience/influence
[Demosthenes] and nature is on its own side. Fangorn says that a few times.
[Pete_R] As Treebeard said, it takes a lot to rouse an ent
[Darkover] They just became that way over time.
[Jenniearcheo] Entwives seem to prefer “ordered” nature. Gardens and orchards
[Puma] well…..remember .in the willowmeads of tasarinan.treebeard had traveled far in the past
[Jenniearcheo] “Peace” meaning stuff growing where you planted it
[Darkover] I agree, Jennie, I noticed that too.
[Xanaseb] wanderer hi
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, he was all over Beleriand and all
[Demosthenes] Darkover: gmta = great minds think alike (belatedly)
[laughing_gull] What had changed that made them become more …somnolent I guess?
[Pete_R] I wonder if th ents originally lived in the Tasarinan area, but moved eastward to escape Morgoth and Sauron
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: good question
[Demosthenes] They grew up?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he mentions the . . .what, “great darkness” or whatever? several times
[sunshower] in the Spring–Tasarinian
[Jenniearcheo] The flooding of the western bits
[Darkover] Maybe just the passage of time, laughing_gull. Maybe that is normal for Ents, the way Elves become more past-looking, and start to fade
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe that took the fun out of the world
[miriel] if they change over time, will they change from what we saw in LotR?
[sunshower] Summer–Ossiriand
[Demosthenes] Maybe it’s the same reason that elves became less interested in the world around them.
[Darkover] Probably, Miriel
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Pete_R] that would probably do it, Jennie
[Demosthenes] hullo wanderer
[miriel] wb wanderer
[Demosthenes] miriel: I think they change in the span that we see them, actually.
[Demosthenes] And these changes are introduced by Merry and Pippin.
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that he mentions deep dark places in woods. But he strongly implies Lothlorien is worse than the Old Forest in this regard. But we saw the opposite
[laughing_gull] Yes Treebeard mentions that later I think
[miriel] they got woken up, for sure
[galenrandir] Hello!
[Darkover] Maybe he was speaking metaphorically, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Elves taught Ents to speak … what do Merry and Pippin teach them? To be hasty/hastier?
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe. Why would ents worry about being captured by fairies, though?
[Jenniearcheo] That seems a mannish sort of worry
[Demosthenes] I think that’s likely.
[Pete_R] Treeberad, re: hlorien: “Land of the Valley of Singing Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower. Ah well! But it is a queer place, and not for just any one to venture in. I am surprised that you ever got out, but much more surprised that you ever got in: that has not happened to strangers for many a year. It is a queer land.”
[Darkover] I think Merry and Pippin also reminded Treebeard that the Ents are still part of M-E
[Pete_R] Lothlorien
[Xanaseb] lol @ being captured by fairies.
[PippinForTheWin] they reminded treebeard that even though people don’t really care for trees, they can still mke a difference
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . that’s the parallel to the elves, really. Tolkien used to use the terms interchangably
[Pete_R] To not be so self-involved, Demosthenes?
[Darkover] and maybe, that the Ents had a responsibility to more than trees, with people like Saruman and Sauron around
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: like elves?
[Darkover] As Pete said
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s a good thought too.
[Pete_R] exactly, Demz
[PippinForTheWin] thanks
[Demosthenes] There seems to be a certain amount of (elvish) resignation about Fangorn at the start of the chapter that no longer is there at the end.
[PippinForTheWin] i think what really inspired treebeard was that these two little guys were standing up to this huge ent
[sunshower] what is with the liquids that seem to be gold and green?
[PippinForTheWin] so he figured that anyone of any size can change the world
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, there was some spooky light juju going on in Treebeard’s house
[laughing_gull] That’s an interesting point, PippinForTheWin, he had kind of given up but the hobbits hadn’t
[Darkover] PippinForTheWin, I wouldn’t say they exactly “stood up” to him, more like they persuaded him. Don’t confuse book with movie.
[miriel] I think merry and pippin brought to light what he had been trying not to see, even if he knew of it in the back of his head
[Jenniearcheo] Most resignations, through the whole story, tend to disappear with greater understanding.
[sunshower] the blending of the two lights…..hmmmmm
[PippinForTheWin] true… hadn’t read the books in a long time
[Darkover] Merry and Pippin reminded the Ents of their responsibilities, I think
[PippinForTheWin] yeah, that there was still more that he could do to protect his forest
[Darkover] right
[PippinForTheWin] even when all else hope failed
[Pete_R] I’ve read the books 19 times, but I still forget sometimes some events that are movie-only and book-only. Time to read again
[Demosthenes] I think they both persuaded and inspired him. And that carried over in the entmoot. I think, maybe, they were a catalyst for something that might have happened eventually anyway. But which otherwise might have happened too late for either Rohan or for the Ents themselves?
[Demosthenes] What do people think of this?
[Xanaseb] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps
[Xanaseb] yup
[galenrandir] i agree
[Xanaseb] I think so.
[Darkover] That sounds exactly right to me, Demosthenes
[laughing_gull] I don’t necessarily agree lol
[PippinForTheWin] could be
[Darkover] The Ents would have galvanized themselves eventually, I suspect, but it would have been too late.
[laughing_gull] I don’t think it’s made clear if it would have happened or not
[sunshower] Treebeard now understands “what he is up to”
[Demosthenes] We do know Treebeard was brooding over the destruction of the trees. But that’s all he was doing. He was … fatalistic?
[PippinForTheWin] though i don’t think that anyone with the determination of merry and pippin would at any other time come to him
[sunshower] thanks to M&P, I guess
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps he was waiting for someone else to care about the ents
[Agonold] Whenever I read this chapter/ think about the entwives I feel like Pippin and Merry should have went back to the Old Forest and asked old Tom Bombadil if he knew anything about where the entwives might be.
[Demosthenes] Thanks to M&P. that’s … serendipity.
[Pete_R] Good point, Dems. R=The ents were so sleepy, mediatiating on their own navals that it would have taken a prolonged attack on the Old Forest to rouse them, but it probably would have been too late. Merry and Pippin saved the day
[Xanaseb] aha.
[Darkover] or Providence, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Of course, Tom may only have known if they’d passed through his land
[Darkover] I always wondered why they left.
[Darkover] the Entwives
[Pete_R] Listening to “In Dreams” on Pandora
[laughing_gull] I always feel sad that we never find out any more about the entwives
[Demosthenes] ‘Up we go!’ said Merry joyfully. ‘Now for a breath of air, and a sight of the land!’
[Demosthenes] They climbed and scrambled up the rock. If the stair had been made it was for bigger feet and longer legs than theirs.
[PippinForTheWin] i wish we knew what they looked like
[Demosthenes] So this really is a turning point.
[Agonold] knowing where they went is better than not knowing anything, jenniearcheo
[Pete_R] Sadly, Tolkien said somewhere (Letters, maybe), that the entwives were probably dead.
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they favored one sort of home and the ents another. They were less and less compatible as time went on, and then Sauron seems to have destroyed the orderly gardens and orchards.
[PippinForTheWin] did he say that in teh books?
[Demosthenes] Also, somewhat ironically, saruman encompasses his own destruction by bringing the hobbits in contact with Treebeard.
[Jenniearcheo] Did he kill them all? Hard to say
[Erestel] I think it was said that they traveled east, but for what reason I can’t remember, and that the Brown Lands by the Anduin were once their domain.
[miriel] indeed, it is sad, about the entwives
[Demosthenes] I’d never thought of that before.
[Pete_R] Not in the trilogy, PippinForTheWin, elsewhere
[miriel] and even if they were not dead, they had probably changed too much anyway
[Demosthenes] Is that providence?
[galenrandir] I’ve forgotten, is it known what happened to the Entwives after the Brown lands?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Dems. Interesting
[Pete_R] True, Demz, re: Saruman. And Sauron eventually brought his own destruction abiut in a number of ways–making the Ring was the biggest goof
[Darkover] The departure of the Entwives probably isn’t, but I think Merry and Pippin meeting up with Treebeard was providential
[laughing_gull] I’m sure Tolkien would have seen it as providence
[laughing_gull] considering his beliefs
[sunshower] *making* other lifeforms is kind of against the rules, isn’t it?
[Jenniearcheo] We never hear, galenrandir. Treebeard thinks they’ve gone west or something and that eventually they’ll meet up with them. Made it sound like they’d all board some log canoes for Valinor or sommat. Weird
[sunshower] or adapting, rather
[Pete_R] True, if Merry and Pippn hadn’t been captured by orcs and brought to the edge of the Old Forest, the war would have gone very differently
[Demosthenes] It also goes back to Gandalf speaking in favour of M&P after the Council. Someone like Glorfindel /probably/ could not have done this.
[Demosthenes] Don’t you think?
[sunshower] …even the smallest person….
[Darkover] Definitely, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] true
[PippinForTheWin] definately
[Xanaseb] *definitely
[Jenniearcheo] Particularly with the elvish-entish distrust that’s creeped into the relationship
[PippinForTheWin] *definitely whoops
[Demosthenes] Not just because of the weight of history between elves and ents. But also because of the different world-view hobbits bring.
[Demosthenes] yes jennie. the novelty of hobbits forces treebeard to re-examine many things.
[Jenniearcheo] Indeed
[Pete_R] Deemz, that was anither example of gandalf’s second sight. Like when he chose Bilbo. I like it when, on Unfisnished tales, Gimli asks if gandalf knew more than he was telling them about events, and Gandalf wouldn’t answer
[PippinForTheWin] i think hobbits are so untouched by corrupt ways, treebeard realizes that the opinions aren’t biased
[Demosthenes] ‘Why not make a new line?’ said Pippin.
[Demosthenes] ‘Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers.
[Demosthenes] Put us in amongst the four, next to Man (the Big People) and you’ve got it.’
[Jenniearcheo] If the old verses about the peoples of the world are incomplete, perhaps their worldview needs a general rethink
[laughing_gull] Demosthenes would you care to elaborate on the different world-view? not sure I follow
[Demosthenes] ^^^ i think that is more important than it first seems.
[Darkover] and hobbits still take pleasure in life. They are not jaded or tired, like the older species. Treebeard later refers to them as “the laughing folk, the little people.” That may have been a factor.
[PippinForTheWin] they keep to themselves
[Demosthenes] I guess, culturally, Hobbits bring a positivity and “carry-on” attitude that seems to be inherent to them.
[Jenniearcheo] And they seem to care about the ents, once they hear the story.
[laughing_gull] keeping to themselves seems to be something ents and hobbits have in common interesting
[Jenniearcheo] How English
[laughing_gull] ok
[Demosthenes] That’s not something you always get from men or elves or dwarves.
[michael336] In Chapter 2 of Fellowship, Sam mentions someone seeing trees walking near the Shire. I always assumed that these were the Entwives.
[galenrandir] me too
[laughing_gull] me too michael
[Demosthenes] like Darkover says, they are not jaded.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps that’s part of why Treebeard didn’t do anything about Saruman for so long. At one time, they’d been friends. Even though Saruman had never imparted any information, at least he seemed to care.
[Darkover] IMO, Hobbits don’t have the curiosity that the Elves had–or had once–but they do care about people, in a way that is almost unique to them.
[sunshower] breath of fresh air, Hobbits
[Darkover] agreed, sunshower
[Demosthenes] Yeah, all these things.
[PippinForTheWin] i think treebeard thought that saruman would change back from his evil ways, but once he saw all the destruction,he lost hope
[galenrandir] I can see the entwives enjoying the area around the shire
[Darkover] I think you’re right, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s another interesting thought. Did Treebeard hope that?
[Jenniearcheo] True, galenrandir. They do like cultivation
[PippinForTheWin] he didn’t want to believe it, which is why i think he didn’t want to take part in the war
[PippinForTheWin] he just hoped
[Demosthenes] He was in denial that things had changed?
[Pete_R] yes, Demz
[sunshower] elephant in the room thing
[PippinForTheWin] maybe?
[PippinForTheWin] not really sure
[Darkover] Also, the Ents don’t seem too big on making things happen–they seem to prefer to wait for things to happen.
[flufftheagent] hulloooo
[Jenniearcheo] Or he thought that since he was essentially betrayed by the one dude who cared at all . . . Why bother doing anything if nobody was “on his side”
[sunshower] hi flufftheagent
[Darkover] hi, flufftheagent
[Pete_R] he woudn’t accept it until he saw the damage that ors had done to the forest
[Demosthenes] I cannot remember that he ever told. me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face, as I remember it – I have not seen it for many a day – became like windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside.
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Jenniearcheo. how could he know that Merry and Pippin wouldn’t turn out like saruman?
[sunshower] Pete_R, he *had* seen the damage before M&P got there, right?
[Darkover] Maybe that was how he rationalized it, Jennie–an Ent’s first responsibility is to the trees
[Jenniearcheo] Because unlike Saruman, they told him nearly their whole story.
[Pete_R] oh yeah, sunshower–need to read agan
[Demosthenes] ‘I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. ”
[galenrandir] he also liked their voices
[flufftheagent] what is this nit picking?
[sunshower] [--gets movie influences!
[laughing_gull] they “reminded him of something he couldn’t remember” right?
[Darkover] probably they reminded him of Entings, laughing_gull
[Demosthenes] ” he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” that’s an interesting summation of Saruman’s character.
[PippinForTheWin] maybe he hadn’t been that cared for since the Entwives?
[laughing_gull] that’s what I always thought
[Darkover] and an accurate one, Demosthenes
[michael336] I think Treebeard figured, “It’s not our fight.” He and the Ents had lived through ages of fighting among the other races. This is one more instance of the “hastiness” of the non-Ent races. Just sit back and let it play out. it doesn’t concern the Ents.
[Jenniearcheo] Growing things. So, the entwives preferred planned, orderly growing things and the ents preferred wild growing things. How like men they really are
[Darkover] I think that was Treebeard’s attitude, Michael336, until Merry and Pippin persuaded him otherwise.
[Demosthenes] michael336: there’s also a bit of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” going on in this hcapter.
[PippinForTheWin] It seems that the ents are more or less like the eagles- they stay out of anyone’s business unless it concerns them
[Pete_R] true, michael336, the ents had been withdrawn from the world for a few thousand years, probably
[Darkover] well, we could argue that is true for most people, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] treebeard says as much:
[Demosthenes] ‘I will stop it!’ he boomed. ‘And you shall come with me. You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way, too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor will have an enemy behind as well as in front. Our roads go together – to Isengard!’
[michael336] I can see a parallel between the Ents and America’s isolationism prior to WW2. Not that Tolkien was making this connection….
[PippinForTheWin] Darkover, but at least in the land of ME, there are many similarities between the two
[Darkover] But in defense of the Ents, when they do make up their minds to do something, there is nothing halfway about it
[Demosthenes] Tolkien would deny any allegory, I’m sure.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: I think that’s the flip of being such patient things. Once the patience is exhausted there are no half measures.
[michael336] Not an allegory, but perhaps an inspiration?
[Demosthenes] We see this in the search ofr the entwives too i think.
[Pete_R] Isolationism is as old as civilization, I bet
[Darkover] well put, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Except that over time they ventured less and less far
[Demosthenes] They throw themselves wholly into trying to find them.
[Demosthenes] I guess that is … despair?
[Demosthenes] or acceptance.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps. Although I think he doesn’t quite want to accept their demise
[miriel] maybe a mix?
[Pete_R] sounds like despair
[Jenniearcheo] He still has hope
[Demosthenes] A faint hope.
[PippinForTheWin] i think he gains hope from M&P
[Pete_R] as in “The etwives may still be alive, but I doubt if we can find them”
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they remind him of teh Entwives
[miriel] but from his talk, it sounds like he does not want to accept it
[Demosthenes] Perhaps the loss of the Entwives made the ents more fatalistic too.
[Jenniearcheo] Their fave place was decimated by Sauron and he wonders where they went, rather than whether they’re dead
[Demosthenes] I’d never considered that.
[Pete_R] Or entings, more likely, PippinForTheWin
[laughing_gull] interesting thought
[Jenniearcheo] mm
[Darkover] could be
[PippinForTheWin] i think he’s worried that the Entwives have forgotten him, and he feels forgotten until M&P show up
[Xanaseb] that’s a good point about the Entwives
[Darkover] and probably left the Ents feeling more isolated
[miriel] I wonder, with their long lives, wether they had a need as strong as other beings to multiply
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] Maybe not, miriel. Ents remind me of Elves in that way.
[galenrandir] interesting thought Pippinforthewin
[Pete_R] Whatever, I’m sure tht Treebeard’s hopes of finding the entwives had been severely rocked, by the time he met M&P
[Xanaseb] I can’t remember the story he tells now.. did he say that they suddenly dissapeared one day, or that they realised one day that they could not find them?
[miriel] the latter
[Darkover] doesn’t he say they lost them?
[miriel] they crossed the river, and made gardens
[Darkover] and now they can’t find them?
[Demosthenes] I wonder, is there a moral in this for us in terms of being hasty versus being thougtful and patient?
[miriel] and the ents only visited now and again
[laughing_gull] I believe they disappeared after an attack by sauron correct?
[miriel] and one day when they visited, they were gone
[Pete_R] They just wandered farter and farther away, gradualy, didn’t they?
[Xanaseb] well, in that case, I think the way in which it happened was so gradual and unsensed by them that they probably wouldn’t have changed that much as a result of it happening IMO.
[Darkover] well, maybe the Ents were *too* patient, and the Entwives got tired of it. I suppose we will never know.
[Jenniearcheo] The preferred habitat of the ents and their entwives grew more and more incompatible
[Xanaseb] ah, well maybe not then
[Erestel] Yes, laughing_gull. Their gardens in the Brown Lands were destroyed during a war, more than likely the War of the Last Alliance.
[Jenniearcheo] yes
[Jenniearcheo] Or they went shopping.
[Jenniearcheo] And they never buy anything unless it takes a loooong tiiiiime to buyyyyyy
[Demosthenes] Erestel: or when Sauron invaded Eriador. It’s a bit obscure there.
[miriel] no xana, it still must have been a shock, they took them for granted, and then suddenly they were gone
[Xanaseb] yeah, just realised that miri
[Darkover] If the Entwives left voluntarily, I’ll be that is what did it–I’ll bet the Ents took them for granted.
[Pete_R] I remember it was long ago �C in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea �C desire came over me to see Fimbrethil again. Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their
[Pete_R] and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some
[PippinForTheWin] I’m sorry- what book is all this mentioned in?
[Pete_R] Sorry, gDem, uess I’m getting ahead
[Darkover] Maybe they left, but what Pete just quoted kind of implies they all died/were killed off.
[laughing_gull] if you finish the quote it doesn’t
[Jenniearcheo] So they physically changed, as well.Turning brown and bent and parched. If ents can turn into trees . . . can entwives turn into something else?
[Erestel] @ PippinForTheWin: The Entwives story? Treebeard tells the story of the entwives in full in his chapter of The Two Towers.
[Demosthenes] I suspect Sauron’s minions destroyed them all. But there is nothing conclusive to back that up i think.
[Jenniearcheo] There is also a brief bit about their language (they liked Elvish) in the appendices
[PippinForTheWin] ok thanks wan’t sure if another book was involed Erestel
[Pete_R] Jennie, you know the song, “Willin’?” It has the lone, “Baked by the sun, driven by the snow.” That would have changed the entwives quite a bit, I think
[laughing_gull] “some said they had never seen them; some said tehy had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and other south”
[Darkover] Maybe we aren’t meant to know. Maybe Tolkien wanted to leave it a mystery.
[Pete_R] like Bombadil
[laughing_gull] yeah probably
[Demosthenes] jennie: if ents go treeish, entwives go … like fruit trees? like the orchards they made?
[Erestel] Or the unexplained magic influence over the Dead Marshes.
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they became corn and were harvested
[Demosthenes] hah
[laughing_gull] lol jennie
[Jenniearcheo] Jane Barleycorn?
[Darkover] What Jennie suggests may not be all that far out. Sounds like Changing Woman in Navaho mythology
[Jenniearcheo] It is ever my hope to be not far out
[Xanaseb] nice, indeed.
[michael336] Thoughtful and patient, yes, but not immobile.
[Darkover] although I admit, that probably wasn’t what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote about them.
[Demosthenes] Would they change so much that the ents would not recognise them?
[Jenniearcheo] Quite possibly
[miriel] possibly
[Darkover] I suspect so
[Jenniearcheo] That’s a way to lose them, I’d guess
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they didn’t want the ents to recognize them, so they changed so they could go wherever they wanted and not be seen by the ents
[laughing_gull] I’d like to think that “their eyes would still be the eyes of our own people” as Treebeard said
[PippinForTheWin] so they wouldn’t be taken for granted again?
[Erestel] That’s a cruel way to play hard-to-get, PippinForTheWin.
[PippinForTheWin] but effective
[Jenniearcheo] More likely they were groves of apple trees . . . and then the war started . . .
[Jenniearcheo] We know what Europe looked like after WWI
[laughing_gull]
[Jenniearcheo] yeah
[Pete_R] from Lettrers: “I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (S. A. 3429-2441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin.”
[Jenniearcheo] The battlefields seemed to inform both the Desolation of Smaug and the Dead Marshes
[Jenniearcheo] mhm
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: /if/ the entwives had also gone “treeish” then they would have found it hard to flee. perhaps.
[Jenniearcheo] True. And Treebeard doesn’t seem to think of this
[Demosthenes] and, that pretty much nails it down to the last alliance too.
[laughing_gull] what is interesting in all this to me is that it kind of shows how Tolkien didn’t necessarily know exactly what he was writing when he started with an idea
[Jenniearcheo] But then he hadn’t seen them for some time, and might not know they’d become treeish
[Pete_R] of their love of farmingthey seemed to be activ;ey
[PippinForTheWin] maybe they gave up when they started to be attacked and wanted to de as a beautiful fruit tree instead of an ent (which aren’t as beautiful)
[PippinForTheWin] *die, not de
[Darkover] now *that* sounds unduly fatalistic, PippinFTW
[PippinForTheWin] i know
[Demosthenes] laughing_gull: that’s a constant in Tolkien (and true of a lot of writers. one’s writing has the capacity to surprise even oneself.)
[PippinForTheWin] but you never really know with Tolkien
[Jenniearcheo] I’m sure they found the ents attractive. In a treeish sort of way
[Jenniearcheo] Otherwise nobody’d ever have made any entings
[PippinForTheWin] true, jennie
[PippinForTheWin] but maybe they didn’t see themselves as beautiful?
[Pete_R] who, my last post was decimated. What I wanted to say was, Demosthenes, I kinda doubt that the Entwives would ever become treeish, because they seemed to be very actively incvolved in farming, and maintaining their surroundings. Just MHO
[Demosthenes] that’s a fair point too
[Darkover] I’m inclined to agree with Pete_R about that.
[Demosthenes] I tend to agree
[Jenniearcheo] True. But it’s perhaps the point that the planned, cultivated “nature” was more vulnerable to outside decimation than the wild natural forest
[Jenniearcheo] Although that, too, is now under threat.
[PippinForTheWin] possibly
[Demosthenes] I have another question along a slightly different tack for people to consider.
[Pete_R] Now, Pandora is playing “Gollum’s Song” from film 2
[Darkover] ask away, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] We’ve considered how Merry and Pippin change the ents, but what about the converse?
[Pete_R] hmm
[Jenniearcheo] Apart from the “water”?
[Demosthenes] yes
[Darkover] well, the ent draughts make them a lot taller, for one thing
[Demosthenes] true! too much and the hobbits will be like elendil the tall.
[Jenniearcheo] It broadens their perspective on what constitutes “people”, I’d guess
[Pete_R] I’m sure they both gained confidence, having influenced the assault on Isengard
[PippinForTheWin] i think for the first time, M&P have a chance to be apart of something really big
[laughing_gull] I feel like the ents are some of the first beings who are very mature compared to the hobbits, and yet connect with them on a personal level
[Darkover] and perhaps their involvement with the Ents made Pippin, at least, realize he and Merry weren’t just baggage, but could make a difference in the war
[PippinForTheWin] and maybe now they’re not as hasty
[Jenniearcheo] Back in the Old Forest, they considered Old Man Willow to be an evil entity. Now they might see him as a cranky old guy
[Demosthenes] Does Treebeard’s chiding them for being “hasty folk” affect their thinking?
[Pete_R] They both had their first real chance to make a strong positive contribution to the war
[PippinForTheWin] exactly, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Tom saw him as a person, and they thought that was part of Tom’s weirdness
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: gmta.
[Darkover] Perhaps, even as the hobbits reminded the Ents that there was a lot to M-E, the Ents made the hobbits realize there was a lot more in the world than the Shire.
[Pete_R] haha–Hennie, does OMW have a cane to shake at whippersnappers?
[Darkover] Thanks, PippinFTW
[Pete_R] Jennie
[Jenniearcheo]
[Pete_R] It probably does affect their way of thinking, Demz, to some extent
[Demosthenes] I wonder whether it helps them “grow up
[Jenniearcheo] One of many things
[PippinForTheWin] i think also after the whole ordeal with the orcs, M&P have this almost parent-like figure who teaches them about wisdom
[sunshower] and in turn they teach too
[Pete_R] The whole experience of being abducted, and then, having to convince the ents to get involves help them to grow up, I guess
[michael336] Merry and Pippin for the first time were “on their own” rather than being “tag-alongs” with Frodo and the non-Hobbits. They move from being comic relief to significan characters and eventually warriors.
[PippinForTheWin] and they’re so confused about the world but they begin to understand how it works
[Demosthenes] PippinForTheWin: that’s one of the great contrasts — both the orcs and the ents offer hospitality … but very different types.
[Jenniearcheo] The entdraught sounds better than the medicine
[Demosthenes] It might be guinness.
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Jenniearcheo] Guiness is good for you
[Darkover] lol
[Demosthenes] truth.
[PippinForTheWin] Merry and Pippin are just exposed to so many new species on this adventure, they don
[PippinForTheWin] they don’t know who to trust
[Jenniearcheo] Puts bark on your chest.
[Pete_R] I vote for Watney’s Red Barrel, Demz.
[LuthienXBeren] lol
[sunshower] ruff rff
[laughing_gull] I have to leave, this has been very cool, thank you all
[Jenniearcheo] Bye laughing_gull
[laughing_gull] bye
[LuthienXBeren] baii
[Pete_R] take care, laughing_gull
[sunshower] see ya laughing_gull
[Darkover] bye, laughing_gull
[PippinForTheWin] yeah everyone, i have to go bye, and thanks for chatting with me!!
[Darkover] bye, PippinFTW
[Demosthenes] But the ents don’t seem to expect anything from merry and pippin. their hospitality is like the ultimate in altruism. no strings attached?
[Jenniearcheo] Bye PippinForTheWin
[LuthienXBeren] aww, bye pip
[sunshower] bye PippinForTheWin
[Demosthenes] seeya PippinForTheWin!
[Erestel] Farewell, laughing_gull and PippinForTheWin!
[PippinForTheWin] hope to see you guys next week!
[Pete_R] adios, PippinForTheWin
[Jenniearcheo] True. he offers to drop them off at the border. Seeyaa
[Jenniearcheo] Although he welcomes the news.
[Jenniearcheo] Even though he can tell they’re holding back
[Demosthenes] And Quickbeam is the same.
[Demosthenes] We haven’t spoken much about QB yet
[Darkover] Well, at one point Treebeard admonished the hobbits for telling him too much about themselves, too soon, so he can hardly be upset if they do hold something back.
[Demosthenes] He didn’t want to reveal his true name
[Demosthenes] names and power.
[Jenniearcheo] Quickbeam’s story about the rowan trees was sad, but indicated that the entwives may have been a trifle ungrateful for their efforts to please them.
[Jenniearcheo] “meh.”
[miriel] that poem is one of my favourites
[miriel] Oh Orofarne Lassemissa Carnimirie
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, is there any more said about that, at all? Does someone’s true name become a vulnerability at some point? Is there an old example?
[miriel] Oh rowan fair
[sunshower] the song between ent/entwife?
[Jenniearcheo] No, later
[Demosthenes] jennie: not that i recall. but puma might know of one.
[Jenniearcheo] When Bregalad (Quickbeam) is singing them to sleep
[sunshower] ah, ok
[sunshower] the other one I know and love
[Jenniearcheo] A lament for the fallen rowan trees
[Pete_R] The poem is one f the saddest moments in the book, fpr me. Separate question: Would the Ents have the same eventual after-death destination as men and hobbits? Or some place similar of their own, since they are not just plant-life.
[LuthienXBeren] what about the ‘old forest’? does any one believe tolkien was insinuating something there, with the entwives?
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, that is a nice one. The seasonal thing. But it underscores my point about their divergent habitats
[Darkover] indeed, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] They sort of seemed to think so, Pete. West was mentioned, and reunions
[Demosthenes] The rollingness of those entwords is really neat.
[Pete_R] Right, Jennie, that’s what got me thinking bout this
[Pete_R] yes, rolly words are boss.
[Darkover] I’m not sure the Ents would like the Undying Lands, though, assuming they would go there. If nothing ever changes, what would the Ents/Entwives have to tend and to cultivate?
[Erestel] The only instance I can think of that would imply vulnerability in revealing true names is Turin, who took different names to avoid his doomed fate. But as it was said to him (I can’t remember who said it. Finduilas?) “Your doom lies in yourself, not in your name.”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, so . . . moot in the end
[Jenniearcheo] Although lots of folks take multiple names in ME. Elves in particular. And a few Men
[sunshower] folks, weapons, places…
[Demosthenes] They seem long-lived but not immortal? I don’t know. that’s a curly one.
[Pete_R] true, Jennie but I think that Turin was the champeen of fake names
[Jenniearcheo] mm yes. Of course, some of that is underscoring the fact that time passes and people pass and the same place gets a new name
[Jenniearcheo] lol champeen
[Jenniearcheo] How would they get across the ocean? Strap themselves together into rafts??
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[Demosthenes] wood floats
[Erestel] Sea turtles.
[Pete_R] We never heard pf an ent dying of old age. Does that mean they are like elves, that they only die if killed, or if they allow themselves to die willfully, from a sorrow?
[Darkover] “Mom, she’s touching me!”
[Jenniearcheo] Driftwood. Great.
[Darkover] That’s something I hadn’t considered, Pete_R
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: yeah i dunno. they seem effectively immortal.
[Pete_R] Jennie, they are walking trees. Wood floats.
[Demosthenes] is treeishness like the fading of the elves?
[michael336] Ah, the power of names….the Childlike Empress to Bastian: “Say my name!” And Fantasia was recreated. (Sorry for The Neverending Story reference….)
[Darkover] Maybe becoming tree-ish is the Entish equivalent of “fading.”
[Jenniearcheo] I think it’s akin to it
[Pete_R] Yeah, Treebeard is “Eldest, which makes him thousands of years old.
[Jenniearcheo] In that we don’t see many walking trees any more, nor yet elves
[Demosthenes] But the fading wasn’t a death, more of a exhausting weariness.
[sunshower] treebeard names an elder ent?
[Darkover] Have we just about finished our discussion? Because it is getting late here, and I am hungry.
[Demosthenes] “can’t cope, off to valinor”
[Jenniearcheo] He says there were three of them left from long ago
[Jenniearcheo] But one probably got cut down by Saruman, off west aways towards (or beyond?) Isengard
[sunshower] right Jenniearcheo
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think we are nearly done. did we cover the outcome of the entmoot?
[Jenniearcheo] Have some entdraught, Darkover
[Pete_R] Nuh-uh, Jennie. Once when I was driving, a tree walked right in front of my car! It wasnt a Budweiser-induced hallucination, no matter what the judge said.
[Darkover] ha, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I see . . .
[sunshower] mmm hmm
[Darkover] OMW is out to get you, Pete
[Jenniearcheo] I believe they end at the first sight of Isenard, Dems
[Pete_R] Thank you, Darkover
[Demosthenes] We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
[Jenniearcheo] So yes, they march
[sunshower] (pretty good movie scene)
[Jenniearcheo] With doom we come! With doom we come!
[Demosthenes] key:
[Demosthenes] ‘Quickly?’ said Treebeard. ‘Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected. Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea.
[Erestel] “Night lies over Isengard.”
[Demosthenes] this has not happened in this forest since the wars of sauron and the men of the sea.
[Demosthenes] Also, “wizards ought to know better”
[sunshower] were the Ents involved in that????
[Pete_R] I recently met a couple in a cafe, He noticed my copy of UT, and asked about it. We talked about the books and films, and he said he was disappointed that the trees and ents didnt show up at Helm’s Deep in the movie. I told him about the EEs, and his eyes bugged out.
[Jenniearcheo] Did the forest once stretch all the way out over those mountains?
[Darkover] Well, Treebeard was right about that. The Istari were sent to make things better, not worse.
[Jenniearcheo] lol Aw, Pete. I hope he bought a copy
[Pete_R] The guy read Tolkien, his date reads Twiilight.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Treebeard may have known more about the Istari than he let on.
[Pete_R] me too, Jennie
[Jenniearcheo] I read both, Pete. Nyah
[Darkover] He was probably there when they arrived, Demosthenes
[Jenniearcheo] Also Gabaldon, Pratchett, and Patrick O’Brian
[sunshower] I think this chapter says he was, Darkover
[Jenniearcheo] Though switching around can strip your mental gears
[Pete_R] sunshower, I would guess that theor involvement was tp flee from it. fpr their lives
[Demosthenes] Oh, isn’t there a parallel with macbeth here too?
[Demosthenes] or am i mistaken?
[Erestel] How so?
[Pete_R] I’m sure, Dem’s, re: Istari
[Darkover] Yeah, it doesn’t immediately leap to mind
[Demosthenes] trees marching on … something?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, M&P weren’t the only ones holding some stuff back
[Pete_R] Jennie, you’re an under-nerd :-p
[Jenniearcheo] An under nerd?
[sunshower] narnia trees marched!
[sunshower]
[Darkover] Oh, yes, macbeth couldn’t fall until a certain forest moved
[Demosthenes] birnam wood
[Pete_R] Yes, Darkover, Treebeard would have been in ME fr many many many years before the wizards came
[Darkover] and the enemy’s men used the trees of that forest as camoflauge (sp?) so it looked as if the forest was moving
[michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Darkover] well, a marching forest would be really cool, provided it wasn’t marching on *you*
[Pete_R] uber-nerd for reading Tolkien and Twilight
[Demosthenes] Macbeth shall never vanquished be until
[Demosthenes] Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill
[Demosthenes] Shall come against him.
[Erestel] I remember something like that. Tolkien saw Macbeth, and he was disappointed when it turned out the walking forest was men with leaves in their hats, or something like that. I’m probably getting some details wrong.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, Uber. I see.
[Jenniearcheo] I’ve heard that too, about the wood
[Demosthenes] michael336: i read that also. and here we literally have a forest marching against its opressor. Don’t mess with nature is the lesson.
[Pete_R] By Macbeth, Dems, are you referring to the Burnham (sp?) Wood?
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . don’t mess with wild untouched still strong nature. Cultivated nature is more vulnerable
[michael336] There
[Demosthenes] Yes pete.
[michael336] There’s a doctoral thesis for you: The Lord of the Rings is Tolkien’s rewriting of Shakespeare.
[Jenniearcheo] Seek ye out Mythgard Institute, michael336. They offer a Masters
[Demosthenes] Interesting little parallel.
[Demosthenes] Hooom, any final points?
[Pete_R] Did I read the Tolkien was disappointed that he never got to see the woods move in the play, so he wrote bout the Ents? Or was it about PJ, making the films?
[Jenniearcheo] lol Hooom
[Darkover] No, I think that’s about it
[Darkover] This has been interesting, as usual
[michael336] Jennie, I would LOVE to get a master’s from there! I’m waiting until they have accreditation.
[Demosthenes] pete: no, that is the story i’ve heard too. michael336 mentioned hearing it also.
[Erestel] I only remembered the parallel between the Witch-king and Macbeth where no living man and no man of woman born could slay them, respectively, and both were slain by loopholes (a woman and a man birthed via C-section).
[Pete_R] So, we’re at The Ent…The End, I mean?
[Demosthenes] Sorry it was a bit choppy at the start. I took a little while to wake up.
[Jenniearcheo] They say that by the time anyone has the requirements met, they’ll have accreditation. I’m only sorry I can’t afford the pittance yet
[Pete_R] okay, Demz. I am such a lousy typist that I miss a lot of posts, with my eyes glued to the keyboard
[Demosthenes] humph
[Jenniearcheo] ha
[Demosthenes] Pete_R: [09:27] [michael336] I read that Tolkien was disappointed that Dunsinane Wood did not really march, so that is where he got the idea for the Ents.
[Pete_R] K, thx.
[Demosthenes] Okay, next weekend. Earendil and Elwing?
[Darkover] Sounds good. See you all then.
[Jenniearcheo] Byee
[Darkover] Bye, all!
[Demosthenes] thanks to everyone for a great chat.
Session Close: Sun Apr 21 09:43:08 2013

Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath.

The story of Eärendil and Elwing

Of all these tales, the ending of Eärendil and Elwing almost seems the closest we get to a happy ending. Eärendil and Elwing are able to stay together despite their trespass of Valinor. But, like the other tales, is there a bittersweet note?

Is the doom that Manwë pronounces upon them a reward, or a punishment? After all, neither may ever return to Middle-earth. In the Silmarillion text, it’s not even certain the pair are permitted to meet with Valinor’s elves. Are they that separate in their fate?

And in the choice — mortality or immortality — forced upon the pair it’s not entirely clear that Eärendil is anything more than reluctant in his acceptance. Are the Valar just? Are the three companion mariners of the tale who Eönwë returns to Middle-earth truly the fortunate ones?

What alternate insights does Bilbo’s retelling give us into the tale?

And, time permitting, we’ll also examine the alternate early versions that Tolkien outlines in the second Book of Lost Tales.

Join us tomorrow, Saturday April 27 at 6pm EDT (New York time) in Hall of Fire as we discuss the story of Eärendil and Elwing.

Recommended reading:
* The Silmarillion Chapter XXIV — Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
* The Fellowship of the Rings Book II Chapter I — Many Meetings
* The Book of Lost Tales II — The Tale of Eärendil

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You know the story of the mythological Greek king, Sisyphus, right?

For those who don’t recall, Sisyphus was just too crafty for his own good. So the Greek gods, never tolerant of being made to look foolish, designed for him the most frustrating of punishments: Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge boulder up a steep hill. Just before he could reach the top, it would roll back down, forcing him to begin all over again.

Consistency and canon in Tolkien always feels a bit like that — something that hovers just out our of reach. More, the harder you push for it, the more it slips away from you.

The answer you seek isn’t in quite The Lord of the Rings, so you start examining what Tolkien wrote in the published Silmarillion. But that’s still too vague, so you delve into Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle Earth. You might find some hints, but they’re at best fragmentary, or worse, the stories offer conflicting information!

Of course, as humans we feel compelled to seek consistency and place things within a coherent framework — a framework that does not always exist.

Which is why people twist themselves into knots of logic to try and make sense of conflicting evidence of whether Balrogs do or do not have wings.

Or whether Galadriel departed Valinor with Feanor’s rebels, or — as Tolkien later preferred but never integrated into the Quenta Silmarillion texts — left independently but at the same time.

Or… well, I could go on, but I’m sure you get the idea.

Tolkien canon has a natural limit…

The fact is that no matter how hard you work at it, no matter how many resources you consult, there’s a limit to how consistent you can make canon. For some things in Arda, there is simply no single, definitive answer.

My take is that this inevitable inconsistency is not not only not necessarily bad, but actually a good thing. This may seem counter-intuitive, but I believe the uncertainty about “factual truth” works to increase our investment in the story.

Why? It makes us ask questions and discuss what “really” happened. We question and discuss not in the hope of a definitive answer, but as a means of discussing alternatives hypotheses.

It’s worth considering that history — or more precisely — our knowledge of it, is messy and fractured. And the further one tries to delve into history, the more fragmentary and conflicting this knowledge tends to become.

This is self-evident. Oral traditions fail; records are lost, destroyed.

The fractured, incomplete and contradictory nature of Tolkien’s legendarium mirrors this — and this is one of the keys to its deep verisimilitude.

It helps make it more believable, not less.

Just think how many ancient records of the Edain would have been lost in the Akallabeth when Numenor sank beneath the waves. Consider how many more would have been lost in the sack of Ost-in-Edhil by Sauron, in the destruction of Osgiliath during Gondor’s terrible kin-strife, and in the decades when Arnor dissolved under the twin influence of internal strife and the assaults of Angmar. More — much more — was lost than just the Palantiri, I fancy.