Hall of Fire chat log: Earendil and Elwing
Last weekend, the Hall of Fire crew discussed the story of Earendil and Elwing, and their momentous voyage that obtained the help of the Valar against Morgoth. Belatedly, for those who couldn’t attend, here’s a log.
Session Start: Sun Apr 28 07:14:46 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Today’s chat topic: Earendil and Elwing | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] Shall we begin?
[Jenniearcheo] Chasin’ after sparklies rarely ends well in ME, it seems
[PippinForTheWin] hi demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] I’m ready.
[Puma] Earendil….the start of all middle earth writtings
[Puma] welcome lightin thesky
[lightinthesky] thank you Puma 🙂
[Phil] welcome lightinthesky and Esther
[Demosthenes] jennie: No it doesn’t. I was thinking about that yesterday. Even when there’s notionally a happy ending, you’re left to wonder…
[Jenniearcheo] Hands burned, bitten off, etc . . .
[Esther] Thanks Phil
[Jenniearcheo] Fingers, too
[Demosthenes] Do Earendil and Elwing counter this at all?
[Jenniearcheo] Well, they end up with one, but not because they were chasing after it with murderous purpose
[Puma] so….jrr was beginning to invent what later became quenya….and felt a language needed a legend….earendil was the start of the whole saga
[Esther] I didn’t know that Puma
[Puma] the very 1st lines jrr wrote of middle earth were about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] wow Puma didn’t know that
[Puma] so of great import.the start of it all
[ChristineGolden] And yet, he never finished it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Purity of purpose seems to be why they achieve what they do.
[Darkover] greetings, all!
[PippinForTheWin] hey sam
[Esther] the first words about earendil, are they in the hobbit, or where can they be found
[Puma] earendil still remains mostly legend…as does gil-galad
[PippinForTheWin] hey darkover!
[Darkover] Hiya, PippinFTW!
[ChristineGolden] Hi, Darkover. 😉
[Jenniearcheo] Yes. Well. At least he gets to sail around the skies and all.
[Jenniearcheo] What’s left to go back to at this point, anyway?
[Darkover] Howdy, Chris, Jennie, Demosthenes, Puma, and everyone!
[Jenniearcheo] I hope she likes her tower.
[Puma] it was just 2 lines jrr wrote about earendil that started it all
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps they get cable
[Esther] I wish they could be found
[ChristineGolden] It seems that the characters with great ‘destinies’ aren’t fated to be happy-ever-after.
[Darkover] Well, Jennie, they could have returned to their kids, not that either mother or father seemed much concerned about their twins.
[Puma] they are easy to find Esther.i think it is even in wiki about earendil
[PippinForTheWin] nobody really seems to live happily ever after, do they Christine?
[Esther] thanks Puma I’ll have a look sometime
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, sorta, “Oh, man. They got captured. Ah well. Let’s go for a sail!”
[Darkover] Maybe their is no happily ever after, except in Valinor
[ChristineGolden] But Manwe says that Earendil was born to journey to Valinor, Darkover.
[Puma] earendil was also one of most stable names….never changing…but from earendel to earendil
[Esther] very interesting
[Darkover] Maybe so, Chris, I’m just saying I wouldn’t give him any father of the year awards
[Puma] jrr changes most names
[Demosthenes] Darkover: even those who live in Valinor are locked to the fate of the world. So I guess elves don’t really have a happy ending.
[lightinthesky] christinegolden Earendil was, as I have read, a gift to middle-earth by the valar
[Jenniearcheo] Interesting that the winds and tides and whatnot kept blowing him away, until he was supposed to make it.
[Demosthenes] More of a mysterious one.
[sam] he has the blood of three races
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t give many of them “parent of the year” award, Darkover.
[Esther] I’ve read the hobbit but I am taking a very long time to get through FOTR lol
[Darkover] As I said on a previous chat, Demosthenes, Elves seem to get “contented ever after,” rather than “happily.”
[Darkover] True, Chris
[Puma] no earendil only had the blodd of 2 races
[ChristineGolden] They kept blowing him away until Elwing brought the Silmaril.
[Puma] elwing has the blood of 3
[PippinForTheWin] there are a lot of people that don’t deserve the parent of the year award… like Denethor? 🙂
[Jenniearcheo] How old were the twins at this point?
[Demosthenes] Does Earendil get a contented ever after?
[sam] no 3
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he gets the girl
[Esther] PippinForTheWin I agree about Denethor
[Puma] i think he does in a way Demz
[Jenniearcheo] And he gets to sail.
[Darkover] Denethor could have been a better dad, PippinFTW, but at least he never abandoned his kids
[Darkover] and there are differences between book and movie Denethor
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: i always thought that was interesting. Another example of you need a mate to succeed in Middle-earth.
[PippinForTheWin] he would abandon Faramir if he could, Darkover… if he had another son maybe
[ChristineGolden] Usually, Demosthenes, even if it isn’t a love interest.
[sam] his grandparents were miar elf
[Esther] again I agree with PippinForTheWin
[Darkover] I’m not sure Earendil even gets “contented,” Demosthenes. I mean, he said he was weary of the world, and yet every night, he has to fly some star through the sky or whatever
[Darkover] Not much chance of getting a rest.
[Jenniearcheo] Has to or gets to?
[sam] his father human
[Demosthenes] ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father
[Puma] but earendil gets to rest every day also…..with his wife
[Darkover] That could make a difference, I admit, Jennie
[Demosthenes] Does he?
[Esther] really these chats should be about random topics lol
[ChristineGolden] I’ve known lots of guys like that, Darkover – always gotta have something to do, work on, fiddle with.
[Demosthenes] He does get the Silmaril. Some folk would be happy with that.
[Elentari] Earendil made the choice of his fate-I’m not sure he would have chosen to be miserable
[Darkover] Could be, Chris, that Earendil is one of them, and keeping busy at his cosmic task is his way of being fulfilled, or it could be he just sees it as a responsibility
[Puma] Esther.too many random topics….Denethor is so complex.he could be a HoF topic of his own
[ChristineGolden] That never made sense to me, Demosthenes. One of the reasons Earendil supposedly kept sailing was to find his parents.
[Darkover] And has been, Puma, but I agree, Denethor should be for another time.
[Raurenkili] Earendil and elwing, right?
[Jenniearcheo] I thought that was before. On the water
[Darkover] Right, Raurenkili
[ChristineGolden] So, why would he be upset about being judged among the elves if his parents were?
[Jenniearcheo] When he was stll trying to get to Valinor in the first place
[Jenniearcheo] Yes, Raurenkili
[Puma] and i am sure Earendil did get to see tuor and idril again
[Esther] that is true Puma but I don’t have a lot of info about jrr or middle earth other then a few books and the movies
[Darkover] I don’t believe Earendil disliked the Elves, Chris–I think he just preferred Men
[Jenniearcheo] I read that more as a wistful saying-goodbye to his human heritage
[Puma] Earendil….took after his father
[Darkover] And whenever someone in M-E has a choice like his to make, he or she must be sundered from one species or the other.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Sometimes they go the other way
[Demosthenes] what does “weary of the world” mean?
[Darkover] At least, until the absolute end of Arda
[Jenniearcheo] Sick of war?
[Darkover] Tired of M-E? Sick of fighting?
[Darkover] Sick of having to make choices?
[Puma] weary of the world is different for the various races
[Demosthenes] the haven at the mouths of the sirion had been sacked
[Esther] sick of everything
[lightinthesky] I’d say Earendil was “weary of the world” as in the meaning of he had sailed through everthing, and became sick of it.
[Elentari] tired of the burdens placed on him by mortals
[Puma] and elves
[Demosthenes] Could the Silmaril have wearied him?
[ChristineGolden] Isn’t it that they become tired of the swift passage of time on ME?
[Demosthenes] I wondered that
[Elentari] plus, he wanted his mommy and daddy
[Esther] that seems accurate Christine
[Jenniearcheo] Then? When he made the choice? Had he had it much at that point?
[Demosthenes] jewnnie: hard to know how long they sailed for
[Puma] earendil was also lord of the havens…apparently you can inherit that position thri the female line
[Jenniearcheo] It was on her necklace for most of the time, wasn’t it?
[lunarising] i would think the Simaril would have been wearing
[Darkover] Or maybe, once you’ve seen the Valar and Valinor, you get tired of M-E
[lightinthesky] i agree with darkover
[Esther] I have to read the silmarillion for the first time Phil, if I could find it
[Darkover] Thanks, lightinthesky
[Jenniearcheo] She gave it to him, but you’d think he’d have given it back if it was weighing on him overmuch
[Puma] sil is easy to find
[lunarising] darkover: that’s always been my thinking
[Darkover] thank you, lunarising
[Demosthenes] The Valar do somehow seem to change him after?
[Darkover] I think so, Demosthenes
[Puma] yes.they do…..although eru did that
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing are given a choice
[Demosthenes] Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.
[ChristineGolden] It was the beacon leading Vingelot (sp?) to Valinor, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, most normal men wouldn’t put up with the whole flying through the stars for eternity thing
[Demosthenes] He becomes something not-human; not-elf … not entirely of the World anymore.
[Darkover] Kind of like Socrates’ “men in the cave”–once you’ve seen what else is out there, what you came from dims in comparison, and no one wants to hear about it, anyway
[lightinthesky] i mean, in apply to what darkover is saying, all the elves were longing for valinor at some point of their long, immortal lives. So it’s fair to say that he was sick of M-E and so became weary of M-E
[Elentari] Earendil went to Valinor and ever after was unsatisfied with normal life
[Romeniel] Earendil choses not to stay in Valinor, but become the Mariner who then sails the sky as the morning star
[Romeniel] his wife stayed at the shores of Valinor to greet him every day as a seabird
[Puma] and flew up to meet him
[lightinthesky] how nice of her 😀
[Darkover] Did Earendil actually *choose* to become the Star Mariner, or was he appointed?
[lightinthesky] imo, he chose himself to be that
[Demosthenes] Yes those are the facts given in Silmarillion, Romeniel
[Romeniel] he and his wife had the last know Silmaril and he chose himself
[Puma] it seems form evidence.appointed
[ChristineGolden] I’d say that Earendil was a sailor at heart.
[lightinthesky] or wait.
[lightinthesky] yeah, christinegolden said it before me
[Darkover] I’m talking about his nightly voyage through the sky, you understand
[Phil] well it was either becoming the mariner or death i think
[ChristineGolden] He would have chosen, Darkover; Tolkien was real big on free will.
[Romeniel] Earendil I think was a sailor at heart anyway… it is said that this was part of the nature of his people anyway
[lightinthesky] I was about to say that, he was born with the name “lover of the sea”
[Elentari] i’m pretty sure he wanted to
[Darkover] That sounds reasonable, Chris
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: Ulmo says this was his “doom”
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah. Lover of the Sea sails high above it forever.
[Romeniel] no, he would just have had to leave Valinor for the choice he made
[lightinthesky] in a way he was both appointed, by fate and/or was destined to be it.
[Darkover] Well, “doom” doesn’t sound like something he would love to do anyway
[Jenniearcheo] Doom isn’t always negative
[Demosthenes] It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: ‘Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?’ But Ulmo said: ‘For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?’
[ChristineGolden] Earendil sure had a lot of “doom” in his life, Demosthenes. 😉
[Puma] doom in the sense given means fate
[Esther] I think I’m gonna have to come back for a topic I actually know a lot about lol
[Myra] same XD
[Jenniearcheo] What is Mandos’s problem?
[Demosthenes] He broke the Ban.
[Darkover] I think Mandos is just a person who takes his job very seriously, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] First, he survives the fall of Gondolin, then is kidnapped by one of Feanor’s sons. His parents sail off while Morgoth’s minions are rampaging through ME…
[Jenniearcheo] Dude should lighten up.
[Puma] a special ruling was made for earendil and elwing
[Romeniel] Earendil and Elwing were something between mortal and imortal… their story was the reason why never ever after something like a true Halfelf could ever be… any Elf who wed a Mortal would be forced to give up their immortality,
[Romeniel] Only two besides Earendil and Elwing who were able to chose their fate were their sons… Elrond and Elendil
[Puma] no Romeniel……idril gave up not her immortality
[Esther] I’m gonna go as well
[Jenniearcheo] Or at least had to choose
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Esther
[Romeniel] Idril was BEFORE Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] Bye, Esther, but come back again sometime
[Esther] I’ll keep this in mind though for a topic I know a lot about though lol
[ChristineGolden] Idril kept her immortality, Romeniel. Tuor, although a man, was judged as one of the firstborn.
[Darkover] The only one ever to get that distinction, I believe
[Puma] so tuor and idril had special fates also
[Jenniearcheo] About Tuor . . . where did he wind up? In Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I believe so, Darkover.
[Romeniel] And they came before Earendil and Elwing
[Darkover] I think so, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] According to the “Fall of Gondolin,” yes, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] If so, what’s the deal about Earendil being the “first” man to set foot there?
[Jenniearcheo] Or was Tuor dubbed “firstborn” on the shoreline?
[Darkover] Well, the first one to show up without permission, Jennie
[Romeniel] But ever since Earendil and Elwing Elves would have to chose between love and immortality… thus the choice of Arwen
[Puma] but the fate of tuor and idril is closely related to earendil…
[ChristineGolden] I think the text is silent on that one, Jen.
[Darkover] Tuor, as I understand it, was made a sort of honorary Elf
[Jenniearcheo] Except that he’d been kept away by wind and waves until then
[Demosthenes] Tuor would have run into the same issue: either a violator of the ban (by virtue of Noldorin adoption) or a Man.
[Romeniel] no rule wihtout exception 😉
[Puma] now in the early writtings……elrond existed…elros did not exist till well after
[Romeniel] in the early writing Elrond wasn’t even a Halfelf
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe Mandos was in a good mood when Tuor turned up. Maybe Ulmo made him a sweet dinner of shrimp scampi to butter him up first.
[Romeniel] he was just an Elffriend
[Darkover] And were Elrond and Elros actually twins? I believe they were, but does Tolkien ever actually state that?
[ChristineGolden] lol, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ohhh, why not. Where did that wine bottle go?”
[Romeniel] Elrond and Elros were twins
[ChristineGolden] Yes, Darkover.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they just ended up on Tol Eressea. Which seems to go by different rules.
[Darkover] Thank you, Romeniel and Chris
[Jenniearcheo] Sort of a doorstep island?
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s in LT.
[Demosthenes] Maybe they came after Earendil and Elwing.
[Romeniel] Elrond tended to feel more drawn to his mother’s choice to live as an Elf, Elros was favoring to be human
[Puma] from tol eressea you can visit eldamar and valmar.but not live there
[Romeniel] that is why Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins
[Darkover] Yes indeed, and from Elros, the kings of Numenor were descended
[Romeniel] distant, but cousins
[Jenniearcheo] Several times removed, of course
[Darkover] *Extremely* distant cousins
[Romeniel] Elrond is Aragorns… grandgrandgrandgrand…..xxxxx uncle
[Puma] more than 50x removed
[Jenniearcheo] “Several” being loosely defined
[ChristineGolden] That’s possible, Demosthenes, but it seems to be one of Tolkien’s “some things remain hidden” details.
[Demosthenes] I always liked Occam’s razor
[ChristineGolden] Me, too.
[Jenniearcheo] True. Tuor was “eventually” considered firstborn
[Puma] jrr left little hidden….he just left it to us to figure out the answers
[Demosthenes] Do you think that Earendil’s three companions got the better deal?
[Jenniearcheo] Perhaps “vague” rather than hidden
[Romeniel] sweet talking to you guys, but I need to head and sail the skies… sort of… in my dreams
[Jenniearcheo] Sure. Back to ME. No job to do.
[Puma] sweet dreams Romeniel
[Jenniearcheo] No sweet Elf wives, but perhaps that wasn’t their aim
[Jenniearcheo] Bye Romeniel
[Demosthenes] Then at the bidding of the Valar Eönwë went to the shore of Aman, where the companions of Eärendil still remained, awaiting tidings; and he took a boat, and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the East with a great wind.
[Darkover] Maybe, as readers of Tolkien, we are supposed to bear in mind that he wrote most of these stories as if he were a historian or some kind of scholar passing down historical information. In other words, somebody living years after the events happened, so in order to make it realistic, he would be fuzzy on details that couldn’t be ascertained.
[ChristineGolden] I was referring to a quote of his, although I don’t recall the exact words. Simply put, we’re not supposed to know everyting.
[Darkover] Chris just summed up what I was trying to say.
[Puma] well….the 3 sailors….were sent back for a purpose….so they could tell other people
[ChristineGolden] No, Demosthenes. ME was about to explode into the War of Wrath. I know I’d skip that one if I could.
[Jenniearcheo] Hardly a happy clappy time
[Demosthenes] So … try not to get touched by fate in Middle-earth … it usually ends bittersweet at best?
[ChristineGolden] What were they going to tell? They were on the boats the whole time.
[Puma] jrr due to his early life….did have a rather fatalistic view
[Darkover] If you have a destiny/doom, life is not rosy, true, Demosthenes
[Puma] the long defeat
[ChristineGolden] Is that possible, Demosthenes? Everyone has a fate – it just may not be a major one that changes the worl.
[ChristineGolden] It was the RC in him, Puma.
[Darkover] But he still had the attitude that evil must be resisted, regardless of whether or not you have a realistic chance of defeating it.
[Demosthenes] And, regardless, together Earendil and Elwing achieve a great good for their people.
[Jenniearcheo] History doesn’t record what happened to those three. They could’ve been on another ship when it all went down, missing the whole thing
[Demosthenes] Without them it seems that Morgoth would have ruled Middle-earth forever?
[Puma] it was said.a wind was made to send them back
[Jenniearcheo] I meant after that, Puma. During the War
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, men and elves couldn’t defeat one of the Valar, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] They sacrifice their … links … to the wider world for the benefit of that world.
[ChristineGolden] Earendil and Elwing complete the cycle of the Silmarillion.
[Puma] remember…the noldor even in the evils they did….fulfilled the wishes of eru….morgoth was bottled up in the north….instead of ranging over all arda
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, for sure. Pleading the case in Valinor, and getting the army mobilized. Certainly saved the world from Morgoth.
[Jenniearcheo] Not that it was held intact
[Demosthenes] Earendil must have been very eloquent
[Demosthenes] That or the Silmaril somehow helped?
[Demosthenes] one wonders.
[Jenniearcheo] Maybe he has Ulmo’s scampi recipe
[ChristineGolden] The story begins with the creation of the jewels and ends with their “disposal,” along with the rise and fall of Morgoth.
[Darkover] At last, a Silmaril was being put to good use
[Darkover] Even Maglor said so
[Puma] Earendil it was said…..spoke in quenya.sindarin….and hadorian
[Jenniearcheo] I feel sorry for Maglor.
[Demosthenes] And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds.
[Demosthenes] Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need.
[Demosthenes] And his prayer was granted.
[ChristineGolden] He was given a choice by Eonwe, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] yeah, but if it wasn’t for Maedhros, he’d have given up on the Silmarils
[Puma] perhaps….or maybe the oath was just delayed for him
[Darkover] For all we know, Maglor could still be walking M-E
[Jenniearcheo] Well, he certainly seemed the more reasonable of the brothers
[Demosthenes] or this from Many Meetings:
[Demosthenes] He came unto the timeless halls
[Demosthenes] where shining fall the countless years,
[Demosthenes] and endless reigns the Elder King
[Demosthenes] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
[Demosthenes] and words unheard were spoken then
[Demosthenes] of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
[Demosthenes] beyond the world were visions showed
[Demosthenes] forbid to those that dwell therein.
[ChristineGolden] Every person has to make their own choices in Tolkien’s world.
[Jenniearcheo] Whining about his hand
[Puma] i always have taken it……..that maglor threw his silmaril in the sea…because he had seen elwing go into the sea with a silmaril…and it was next seen in the sky.did he hope throwing his in the sea would have the same result
[Demosthenes] Bilbo’s version is a little grimmer. Maybe.
[Darkover] I always thought he was trying to get rid of it because it burned him, Puma, and because he was just mightily sick of the oath
[Puma] that too
[ChristineGolden] The Silmarillion says it was because of the searing pain, Puma.
[Puma] remember.the sil is chris.not jrr
[Puma] and reasons can be very complex
[ChristineGolden] It is both of them, Puma.
[Jenniearcheo] He edited the Sil, but he wasn’t the primary author
[Demosthenes] It’s always possible to debate “why?”
[Jenniearcheo] Or rather, the only author
[Puma] well……….not really
[ChristineGolden] He was a co-author and editor.
[Puma] if you read the later sil as jrr wrote it.its nothing like chris wrote
[Jenniearcheo] Christopher pulled all sorts of things together. But they were his father’s things
[Demosthenes] It is what we have though
[Puma] chris also invented things jrr never did
[ChristineGolden] From what I understand, Puma, there were some pretty huge gapping holes in parts of the Silmarillion. Not to mention competing drafts.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing was much as jrr left it
[Puma] there were Chrsitine
[Jenniearcheo] As has been pointed out, Earendil was fairly early on
[Puma] but only in parts
[ChristineGolden] I have a question.
[ChristineGolden] Melian was a Maiar and was able to “assume” a body for her stay on earth.
[ChristineGolden] So did Luthien her daughter.
[ChristineGolden] So, I wonder if this was a “trait” handed down and if so, is that what happened to Elwing when she assumed the shape of birds.
[Darkover] Luthien was born in M-E, wasn’t she?
[Demosthenes] Yes Darkover
[Darkover] And I thought one of the Valar transformed Elwing
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[Darkover] Thanks, Jennie and Puma
[Jenniearcheo] She was down in his sea
[Puma] and ulmo was the most connected vala with the exiles and men
[Demosthenes] Why Ulmo? That seems odd as Manwe is the lord of the air.
[Demosthenes] Tuor’s emblem was a swan though, so that’s apposite.
[Darkover] Well, I guess Ulmo didn’t want her drowning in his area
[Jenniearcheo] Well . . . it was a seabird, wasn’t it?
[Demosthenes] He could have made her a flying fish?
[Jenniearcheo] And she flew to a ship. The air was only incidental to it all.
[Darkover] Then she couldn’t have gone to land, Demosthenes
[Puma] ulmo was different from all the other valar….he was the only one that never lost faith in eru
[Jenniearcheo] I think she had a ways to go to get to the ship
[Darkover] Uh, where are you getting that, Puma?
[Jenniearcheo] Nearly killed her, even as a bird
[Puma] from jrr
[Demosthenes] For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves, and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved.
[Darkover] Doesn’t exactly narrow it down, Puma
[ChristineGolden] No, I’m talking about when Elwing was in Valinor. She often assumed the shape of a bird and flew out to greet Earendil.
[Puma] i think in morgoths ring….
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, then.
[Darkover] Well, Chris, I guess once she had done it once, it became a skill
[Jenniearcheo] Well, maybe she liked the bird thing
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: or maybe she learned it permanently from the maiar in Valinor?
[ChristineGolden] I wonder if this was a power handed down from Melian to Luthien to Elwing. Because no other elves that I recall change form.
[Jenniearcheo] True! Luthien did that, too
[Demosthenes] Well, both Luthien and Finrod assume a guise … but it an illusion, not a true shapechange.
[Puma] i would ahve to think that over.i am not sure
[Darkover] I’m still inclined to doubt that it was an inheirited trait, Chris. I think it was a gift bestowed on her by Ulmo, although that is just my opinion
[Jenniearcheo] Except she was actually flying, Dems
[Demosthenes] So yes, what Elwing does seems exceptional.
[Puma] i agree with you darkover
[ChristineGolden] Not a trait, Darkover, but a power.
[Demosthenes] Maybe Elwing’s nature made the bestowal of the gift possible.
[Darkover] Now that makes more sense, what Demosthenes suggests
[Demosthenes] Like opening a tap that was previously shut-off.
[Puma] it was said birds taught her to fly….not that she became a bird
[Demosthenes] So both are needed
[Demosthenes] Each is necessary, but insufficient on their own.
[Darkover] Well put, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] (i love using that maths logic)
[Demosthenes] It’s an idea anyhow.
[ChristineGolden] “and her wings were of white and silver-grey.”
[Darkover] sounds like an unusually pretty seagull
[Jenniearcheo] Does Bilbo describe Vingilot more than the Sil does?
[Demosthenes] So in this way, i guess Elwing is as much changed by this as Earendil is.
[Puma] but earendil and elwing always remain elusive….we never actually see their personalities
[Jenniearcheo] And apparent armor and weapons on Earendil.
[Jenniearcheo] Is he making all that up?
[ChristineGolden] “the far-sighted among he eles that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining…”
[Darkover] Perhaps because, as the “historian,” Tolkien was just describing the big things they did, and the significance of those events, Puma
[Demosthenes] jennie: Elrond might have known?
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, maybe. Maybe when he tells the story it’s more complete than we’re reading it
[Puma] like a white bird.does not mean a white bird
[Demosthenes] Presumably, Glorfindel would have some knowledge of the “true” tale.
[ChristineGolden] I’d say because it is a story of deeds, Puma.
[Demosthenes] And not just a handed-down tradition.
[Jenniearcheo] Was he back to life by then?
[Jenniearcheo] I’m only skipping through this book
[Puma] its part of a muth cycle….some is detailed.other parts not
[Jenniearcheo] I’m saving Turin for a time when I’m unaccountably happy and need to come back down
[Darkover] lol, Jennie
[ChristineGolden] I don’t remember him being mentioned in The Silmarillion after the fall of Gondolin, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Okay, so maybe he’s still dead at this point
[Puma] jrr explicitly says there is 1 glorfindel
[Demosthenes] jennie: dunno. I mean he’s definitely back in middle-earth in the second age.
[Puma] he was part of the plan
[ChristineGolden] Turin is a tough one for me, too, Jen.
[Puma] that is in peoples of middle earth
[Jenniearcheo] I’m bracing myself.
[Puma] since glorfindel had little sin….and in saving earendil furtherd fate….he was released soon from mados
[Demosthenes] Does it say when soon?
[Puma] and he returned to middle earth…about 1600 2nd age
[Darkover] Yes, “soon” can be a very broad term among those who are immortal or nearly so
[ChristineGolden] “soon” in elven time could be several centuries.
[Jenniearcheo] So still dead
[Puma] yes.soon is broad
[Puma] no glorfinel was rebodied and returned
[Darkover] Glorfindel also died a very brave death, so that may have been a factor
[Puma] elves do get new bodies….after a time
[Demosthenes] jennie: I propose that he might have picked up knowledge of the tale of Earendil while he was residing in Valinor. And brought that back with him. Presumably Elrond would be interested if no-one else.
[Jenniearcheo] Anyway, the Sil just says, “But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away from Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, etc. etc.”
[ChristineGolden] I do think that it’s interesting that it took all of the Valar to defeat Morgoth and to destroy Angband.
[Demosthenes] How accurate or complete that tale was… hard to say.
[Jenniearcheo] “Now fair and marvelous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright.”
[Jenniearcheo] No mention of mithril and elven glass
[Darkover] Well, Good plays by rules, Jennie. Evil does not.
[Demosthenes] `Now we had better have it again,’ said an Elf.
[Demosthenes] Bilbo got up and bowed. `I am flattered, Lindir,’ he said. ‘But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.’
[Puma] i think in part.glorfindel returned…to protect elrond…the last of the line of turgon
[Jenniearcheo] Nor a silver mast
[Demosthenes] So, Bilbo’s version must have been ok?
[Demosthenes] What is allowable exaggeration for an elf?
[Puma] he had records in rivendell.and living witnesses
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, nobody was all, “Mithril and elven glass? What!?”
[Demosthenes] poetic license if you will
[ChristineGolden] Tolkien began a Lay of Earendil, but I don’t think he ever finished it.
[Puma] he might have had some poetic liscense
[Darkover] Presumably, Bilbo’s version had no great errors, although he mentions that Aragorn warned him it was cheeky to make verses about Earendil in Elrond’s house.
[Jenniearcheo] “Ebony arrows? C’mooon:
[Darkover] So, his poem need not have been entirely accurate, either.
[Demosthenes] Well, the language is reminscent of Paradise Lost
[Puma] that just means black
[Demosthenes] Which is highly mythological.
[ChristineGolden] And allegorical, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, no, Puma. They’re talking materials throughout
[Jenniearcheo] His bow was made of dragon horn
[Demosthenes] Maybe Bilbo’s poem is meant to convey the same sort of legendary feel
[Jenniearcheo] his arrows shorn of ebony
* Puma nods
[Jenniearcheo] of silver whas his habergeon (whatever the heck that is)
[Jenniearcheo] his scabbard of chalcedony
[Puma] remember…jrr knew more meanings of words than we do
[Demosthenes] and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.’
[Jenniearcheo] his sword of steel was valiant (his sword?)
[Demosthenes] Maybe that’s why Aragorn says that
[Jenniearcheo] of adamant his helmet tall
[Puma] would take a lots of research it narrow down any of his words
[Jenniearcheo] Because his descriptions were a bit on the flowery side, Dems?
[Demosthenes] Yah. I think so. Not because it’s factually incorrect.
[ChristineGolden] a habergeon is like a vest, Jen, think chain mail.
[Jenniearcheo] So Aragorn insisted on the emerald on Earendil’s breast?
[Puma] the elessar
[ChristineGolden] I wouldn’t say flowery as much as detailed. Tolkien was big on visual descriptions.
[Darkover] Right. Bilbo didn’t know why Aragorn was so insistent about that.
[Puma] and it did take cheek for bilbo to write a poem about elronds dad
[Demosthenes] In one tale in Unfinsihed Tales, the original Elessar stone was made in gondolin
[Puma] aragorn held both in reverence
[Jenniearcheo] RE habergeon. Thanks, ChristineGolden
[dwalin] is there anybody
[Demosthenes] I expect it’s a link in that way.
[Jenniearcheo] Lovely old words. Like Calacirian
[ChristineGolden] No problem. (I once did Camelot.)
[Darkover] Cool, Chris
[Jenniearcheo] I meant something else and can’t find it now
[dwalin] hey chris do you remmeber me
[Jenniearcheo] carcanet. That’s it.
[Demosthenes] jennie: Bilbo’s version also talks about Earendil tarrying on errantry
[Demosthenes] But in silm, Tirion is deserted
[Puma] good chat all…..very enjoyable….i have to head out
[Jenniearcheo] Seems flowery to me
[Demosthenes] (i wonder why it was deserted)
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but I don’t remember how, dwalin.
[Demosthenes] seeya puma!
[Darkover] bye, Puma
[Demosthenes] He tarried there from errantry,
[Demosthenes] and melodies they taught to him,
[Demosthenes] and sages old him marvels told,
[Demosthenes] and harps of gold they brought to him.
[ChristineGolden] Sorry, I’m terrible with names.
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, Bilbo doesn’t mention Earendil leaving his poor wife waiting around standing in the danged water.
[Demosthenes] Nor the three mariners?
[Jenniearcheo] Details, details
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[dwalin] earendil father of elendil
[ChristineGolden] Well, he was trying to save her from the possible wrath of the Valar, Jen.
[Jenniearcheo] Oh, I know. Bilbo just skips over the whole thing.
[Demosthenes] jennie: which is interesting. there are little divergences.
[Jenniearcheo] I like how she makes friends with the locals, though
[Darkover] Well, when you’re composing or singing a heroic lay, you do tend to dwell on the heroic parts, and ignore the rest
[dwalin] does spmebody
[Demosthenes] Darkover: that’s true enough!
[Darkover] Thanks, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] Hmmm, any other points on this topic?
[Darkover] I think we’ve about summed it up
[Demosthenes] jennie thanks for bringing up the poem.
[dwalin] i know
[Demosthenes] And the fancy words.
[Jenniearcheo] Thanks for mentioning it in the intro page
[ChristineGolden] I think we covered the main points, Demosthenes.
[Jenniearcheo] I’m glad I found carcanet
[Jenniearcheo] I’d gone and looked it up
[Demosthenes] Okay, i think we’re done. Thanks everyone! Next week we’ll discuss “the white rider”.
[Jenniearcheo] Cheers, Dems.
[Jenniearcheo] Glad you could come, ChristineGolden
[Darkover] Back to “Two Towers, then?
[ChristineGolden] Btw, thanks for including the reading list, Demosthenes, in the chat announcement. I really liked that. 🙂
[Demosthenes] then aragorn and arwen after that
[dwalin] cherers dem
[Darkover] Sounds good. Thanks for the chat, people. See you all next time!
[Jenniearcheo] Yeah, that was very helpful, Demosthenes
[Demosthenes] I’ll try to remember to put in a reading list from now on
[Demosthenes] seeya Darkover!
[Jenniearcheo] Bye, all
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘Next weekend: The White Rider | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
Session Close: Sun Apr 28 09:30:25 2013