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	<title>Comments on: TORn staff mull over the Hobbit Three announcement</title>
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	<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/</link>
	<description>Forged by and for fans of J.R.R. Tolkien</description>
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		<title>By: Santiago Matamoros</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-26201</link>
		<dc:creator>Santiago Matamoros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-26201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No rights to the other works; the LotR Extended Editions are not PJ&#039;s &quot;definitive&quot; versions, the theatricals are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No rights to the other works; the LotR Extended Editions are not PJ&#8217;s &#8220;definitive&#8221; versions, the theatricals are.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Hueter</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-26144</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hueter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 05:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-26144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is plenty of material to draw on in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and other works by Tolkien to cover the fading years of middle-earth (3rd age).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is plenty of material to draw on in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and other works by Tolkien to cover the fading years of middle-earth (3rd age).</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Hueter</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-26143</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hueter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 05:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-26143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sheep with 3d glasses and owners of DVD extended editions! :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheep with 3d glasses and owners of DVD extended editions! <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Scott Hueter</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-26141</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hueter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 05:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-26141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bilbos adventures happen in his 50&#039;s. The Lord of the Rings begins with Bilbos 111th birthday. so material for the Hobbit movies can cover much of that time. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bilbos adventures happen in his 50&#8242;s. The Lord of the Rings begins with Bilbos 111th birthday. so material for the Hobbit movies can cover much of that time. </p>
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		<title>By: BobSF</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25823</link>
		<dc:creator>BobSF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25823</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &#039;last-minute announcement&#039; of the thrid movie has people yelling about a money grab, but the Hobbit story itself does have three perfect plot crescendos for the big screen - (1) Escape from Mirkwood  (2) Smaug!  (3) Five Armies + &#039;Back Again&#039;.  Backfill on Dwarves vs Orcs, White Council, Necromancer at Dol Guldur, etc etc and you have three action packed flicks, each about 3 hours on the extended Blu-rays.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8216;last-minute announcement&#8217; of the thrid movie has people yelling about a money grab, but the Hobbit story itself does have three perfect plot crescendos for the big screen &#8211; (1) Escape from Mirkwood  (2) Smaug!  (3) Five Armies + &#8216;Back Again&#8217;.  Backfill on Dwarves vs Orcs, White Council, Necromancer at Dol Guldur, etc etc and you have three action packed flicks, each about 3 hours on the extended Blu-rays.</p>
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		<title>By: Milkor</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25572</link>
		<dc:creator>Milkor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 01:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Enough with the Lucas bashing already. Do you really have to try to tear down one thing in order to elevate another? I thought you guys were better than that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enough with the Lucas bashing already. Do you really have to try to tear down one thing in order to elevate another? I thought you guys were better than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Boru</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25531</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Boru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It has been often said that the structure of The Hobbit is a microcosm of the structure of The Lord of the Rings. Hence based on how The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was structured it wouldn&#039;t surprise me if the trilogy is split at when Bilbo and the Dwarves arrive at Esgaroth and at the death of Smaug. I think the first movie will be linear with the journey of Bilbo and the Dwarves being told in the context of the White Council dealing with the delaying tactics of Saruman who only relents to the attack on DolGuldur at the end of the movie, which will only be understood at the end of the second movie when Saruman is seen communicating with Sauron through the palantir after Sauron has gone from DolGuldur at which point the audience discovers that that he was feigning being driven out of DolGuldur. I think the second movie will intercut between three plot strands: the action around Bilbo and the Dwarves at the Mountain which leads to Smaug sacking Esgaroth, the strategies around the White Council attacking DolGuldur and Beorn and the Beornings&#039; defence of the Men of the Vales of Anduin from the Orcs and Wargs that attack their viillages to explain how Beorn becomes the chief of that area. Meanwhile, the third movie will bring these strands together to first tell of the besieging of the Lonely Mountain by the Elves and Men and then them helping the Dwarves with their defence of the Mountain from the Orcs and Wargs. And the movie may end with a 20 min denouement where old Bilbo is heard narrating as young Bilbo travels home which is interspersed with scenes showing how the Lonely Mountain, Dale, Esgaroth and the Desolation of the Dragon changes over the years and how this prompts Balin to set off to Moria to create a colony there. Then old Bilbo could be seen with Frodo who says: &#039;So the old prophecies have come true in a sense?&#039;, At which Bilbo says that of course they did and his adventures and escapes were not for his benefit, after all he was just a Hobbit and they aren&#039;t big people in the world, to which Frodo replies; &#039;Thank goodness&#039;. Then perhaps the subtitles could roll on Gollum leaving the Misty Mountains and on him travelling in the lands around eventually coming to Mordor and then on Aragorn hunting for him and then capturing him in the Dead Marshes leaving the audience with the impression that there are other tales to tell.

In order to help develop the different plot strands the appendices information on the Rohirrim will be referred to so to help develop the Beornings and Bardings because of their relationship with the Rohirrim. Also, the appendices information on the Gondorians will be referred to so to help develop the Esgarothians because of their relationship with the Gondorians. Meanwhile, the appendices information on the Orc and Dwarves war will be referred to so to help explain their relationship with each other. Also, the appendices information on the Dwarves&#039; relationship with the Rohirrim will be referred to so to help explain their relationship with the Beornings and the Bardings. And information in the Lord of the Rings that didn&#039;t make it into the Lord of the Rings movies on the Dwarves relationship with the Elves will make it into the Hobbit movies as well as information in the Lord of the Rings book on Hobbits and maybe even on Aragorn&#039;s people in the north that didn&#039;t make it into the Lord of the Rings movies to help develop these things as well. That should give a lot of information to help flesh out the movies. 

I also think that the first movie may begin with a prologue spoken by Galadriel that shows things that didn&#039;t occur in the prologue of the Lord of the Rings such as Anatar helping the Elven-smiths with creation of the Rings, becoming Sauron when he makes his own Ring, the Three Rings actually being given to Gil-galad, Cirdan and Galadriel by the Elven-smiths, Gil-galad being thrown to his death at the battle where the Ring was taken by Sauron&#039;s mace and him giving his ring to Elrond as he lays dying, an off-screen Isildur taking the Ring off an on-screen Sauron, the Ring then seen falling to the bottom of the river, Greenwood becoming Mirkwood, Sauron being seen in DolGuldur, the Istariarriving at the Grey Havens and Cirdan giving his ring to Gandalf, Deagol&#039;s hand picking up the Ring from the bottom of the river, the White council meeting for the first time, an off-screen attack by Smaug on an onscreen Lonely Mountain, Thror, Thrain and Thorin leading the Dwarves away from the Mountain, an old Bilbo with Frodo at Bag End. Meanwhile, the second movie could open with a more detailed attack on Dale and the Lonely Mountain by an onscreen Smaug in all his might and more detail of the escape of the Dale Men and the Dwarves. And the third movie could open with a detailed history of the Dwarves in exile from leaving the Lonely Mountain to Gandalf meeting Thorin at Bree, which could introduce Dain killing Azog in the battle outside Moria in the Dwarf-Orc war. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has been often said that the structure of The Hobbit is a microcosm of the structure of The Lord of the Rings. Hence based on how The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was structured it wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if the trilogy is split at when Bilbo and the Dwarves arrive at Esgaroth and at the death of Smaug. I think the first movie will be linear with the journey of Bilbo and the Dwarves being told in the context of the White Council dealing with the delaying tactics of Saruman who only relents to the attack on DolGuldur at the end of the movie, which will only be understood at the end of the second movie when Saruman is seen communicating with Sauron through the palantir after Sauron has gone from DolGuldur at which point the audience discovers that that he was feigning being driven out of DolGuldur. I think the second movie will intercut between three plot strands: the action around Bilbo and the Dwarves at the Mountain which leads to Smaug sacking Esgaroth, the strategies around the White Council attacking DolGuldur and Beorn and the Beornings&#8217; defence of the Men of the Vales of Anduin from the Orcs and Wargs that attack their viillages to explain how Beorn becomes the chief of that area. Meanwhile, the third movie will bring these strands together to first tell of the besieging of the Lonely Mountain by the Elves and Men and then them helping the Dwarves with their defence of the Mountain from the Orcs and Wargs. And the movie may end with a 20 min denouement where old Bilbo is heard narrating as young Bilbo travels home which is interspersed with scenes showing how the Lonely Mountain, Dale, Esgaroth and the Desolation of the Dragon changes over the years and how this prompts Balin to set off to Moria to create a colony there. Then old Bilbo could be seen with Frodo who says: &#8216;So the old prophecies have come true in a sense?&#8217;, At which Bilbo says that of course they did and his adventures and escapes were not for his benefit, after all he was just a Hobbit and they aren&#8217;t big people in the world, to which Frodo replies; &#8216;Thank goodness&#8217;. Then perhaps the subtitles could roll on Gollum leaving the Misty Mountains and on him travelling in the lands around eventually coming to Mordor and then on Aragorn hunting for him and then capturing him in the Dead Marshes leaving the audience with the impression that there are other tales to tell.</p>
<p>In order to help develop the different plot strands the appendices information on the Rohirrim will be referred to so to help develop the Beornings and Bardings because of their relationship with the Rohirrim. Also, the appendices information on the Gondorians will be referred to so to help develop the Esgarothians because of their relationship with the Gondorians. Meanwhile, the appendices information on the Orc and Dwarves war will be referred to so to help explain their relationship with each other. Also, the appendices information on the Dwarves&#8217; relationship with the Rohirrim will be referred to so to help explain their relationship with the Beornings and the Bardings. And information in the Lord of the Rings that didn&#8217;t make it into the Lord of the Rings movies on the Dwarves relationship with the Elves will make it into the Hobbit movies as well as information in the Lord of the Rings book on Hobbits and maybe even on Aragorn&#8217;s people in the north that didn&#8217;t make it into the Lord of the Rings movies to help develop these things as well. That should give a lot of information to help flesh out the movies. </p>
<p>I also think that the first movie may begin with a prologue spoken by Galadriel that shows things that didn&#8217;t occur in the prologue of the Lord of the Rings such as Anatar helping the Elven-smiths with creation of the Rings, becoming Sauron when he makes his own Ring, the Three Rings actually being given to Gil-galad, Cirdan and Galadriel by the Elven-smiths, Gil-galad being thrown to his death at the battle where the Ring was taken by Sauron&#8217;s mace and him giving his ring to Elrond as he lays dying, an off-screen Isildur taking the Ring off an on-screen Sauron, the Ring then seen falling to the bottom of the river, Greenwood becoming Mirkwood, Sauron being seen in DolGuldur, the Istariarriving at the Grey Havens and Cirdan giving his ring to Gandalf, Deagol&#8217;s hand picking up the Ring from the bottom of the river, the White council meeting for the first time, an off-screen attack by Smaug on an onscreen Lonely Mountain, Thror, Thrain and Thorin leading the Dwarves away from the Mountain, an old Bilbo with Frodo at Bag End. Meanwhile, the second movie could open with a more detailed attack on Dale and the Lonely Mountain by an onscreen Smaug in all his might and more detail of the escape of the Dale Men and the Dwarves. And the third movie could open with a detailed history of the Dwarves in exile from leaving the Lonely Mountain to Gandalf meeting Thorin at Bree, which could introduce Dain killing Azog in the battle outside Moria in the Dwarf-Orc war. </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Black</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25519</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are some obvious clues here that are being ignored.

First, look at the Appendices themselves, as TORn helpfully did last week, and you see that a) there isn&#039;t THAT MUCH extra material; and b) most or all of it (Azog, Thrain, etc.) was already going to be incorporated in the films.

Second, what we DON&#039;T have is the announcement of a new shooting schedule, other than the always-planned pickups, OR a bunch of new contracts being negotiated and signed with the current principals to extend their commitment, or with new actors (Viggo, Liv, the Blue Wizards?) to shoot newly-conceived of scenes which would still need to be scripted, prepped, shot, and finished for a summer 2014 release.

What I see here is a story of PJ, Fran, and Philippa looking at a rough cut of the footage they have shot ALREADY--taking a hard look at stucture, and counting up the minutes that need to be cut in order to satisfy New Line Cinema&#039;s tolerance for theatrical running times.
 Sure, they could follow the LOTR approach, cut what they have to the bone, and then release definitive extended edition DVDs later with hours of additional material (complete with expensive post-production work never-to-be-screened theatrically).  OR..... why not cut A LOT LESS by just restructuring into three films!  Especially if, now that you look at it, there is a natural stopping point here and a climax there--and then we can justify the budget and time to really finish THIS key sequence properly which might otherwise land on the cutting room floor, because of the need to turn over theaters and sell maximum tickets during opening weekend.

So--I see this as no radical change of plan, just a consequence of PJ being an undisciplined flimmaker--in a good way!--and the team discovering that it already has too much of an embarrassment of riches for two movies and a more natural trilogy in the can already.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some obvious clues here that are being ignored.</p>
<p>First, look at the Appendices themselves, as TORn helpfully did last week, and you see that a) there isn&#8217;t THAT MUCH extra material; and b) most or all of it (Azog, Thrain, etc.) was already going to be incorporated in the films.</p>
<p>Second, what we DON&#8217;T have is the announcement of a new shooting schedule, other than the always-planned pickups, OR a bunch of new contracts being negotiated and signed with the current principals to extend their commitment, or with new actors (Viggo, Liv, the Blue Wizards?) to shoot newly-conceived of scenes which would still need to be scripted, prepped, shot, and finished for a summer 2014 release.</p>
<p>What I see here is a story of PJ, Fran, and Philippa looking at a rough cut of the footage they have shot ALREADY&#8211;taking a hard look at stucture, and counting up the minutes that need to be cut in order to satisfy New Line Cinema&#8217;s tolerance for theatrical running times.<br />
 Sure, they could follow the LOTR approach, cut what they have to the bone, and then release definitive extended edition DVDs later with hours of additional material (complete with expensive post-production work never-to-be-screened theatrically).  OR&#8230;.. why not cut A LOT LESS by just restructuring into three films!  Especially if, now that you look at it, there is a natural stopping point here and a climax there&#8211;and then we can justify the budget and time to really finish THIS key sequence properly which might otherwise land on the cutting room floor, because of the need to turn over theaters and sell maximum tickets during opening weekend.</p>
<p>So&#8211;I see this as no radical change of plan, just a consequence of PJ being an undisciplined flimmaker&#8211;in a good way!&#8211;and the team discovering that it already has too much of an embarrassment of riches for two movies and a more natural trilogy in the can already.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Furnish</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25513</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Furnish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Whaley: that&#039;s not really true, as per my brief list of important events and their dates below (drawn from Appendix B, &quot;The Third Age,&quot; in &quot;RotK.&quot;  Bilbo was born 2980 TA (Third Age), Aragorn 2931 TA, Battle of Five Armies was 2941, Aragorn went off &quot;into the Wild&quot; (and to Rohan, Gondor, etc.) in 2951, Frodo was born in 2968 and LOTR events commence in 3018. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Whaley: that&#8217;s not really true, as per my brief list of important events and their dates below (drawn from Appendix B, &#8220;The Third Age,&#8221; in &#8220;RotK.&#8221;  Bilbo was born 2980 TA (Third Age), Aragorn 2931 TA, Battle of Five Armies was 2941, Aragorn went off &#8220;into the Wild&#8221; (and to Rohan, Gondor, etc.) in 2951, Frodo was born in 2968 and LOTR events commence in 3018. </p>
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		<title>By: Dawsman</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25504</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am wondering about where the cut off point for each film would be. I think perhaps for the first one it will end when they emerge from the Misty Mountains and the eagles set them down. 2nd maybe after the shenanigans in Mirkwood and arriving at Laketown it will end with them setting of for the lonely Mountain. But the additional material casts much uncertainty on any predictions. Looking forward to finding out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am wondering about where the cut off point for each film would be. I think perhaps for the first one it will end when they emerge from the Misty Mountains and the eagles set them down. 2nd maybe after the shenanigans in Mirkwood and arriving at Laketown it will end with them setting of for the lonely Mountain. But the additional material casts much uncertainty on any predictions. Looking forward to finding out.</p>
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		<title>By: fjos</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25500</link>
		<dc:creator>fjos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They are making movies for money, and not for charity? And they are telling me this now? ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are making movies for money, and not for charity? And they are telling me this now? <img src='http://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eric M. Van</title>
		<link>http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012/07/31/60215-torn-staff-mull-over-the-hobbit-three-announcement/comment-page-1/#comment-25498</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric M. Van</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 06:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theonering.net/torwp/?p=60215#comment-25498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thinking further... Thorin got his &quot;Oakenshield&quot; name at the Battle of Azanulbizar. The first movie lacks a major battle scene of any kind; all we have is the skirmish with the goblins. And what if Thror&#039;s companion when he was killed by Azog in Moria was not Nar, but his grandson Thorin (age 44)? In which case the Dwarf / Goblin war (reduced to this single battle) fits in easily as the second major Thorin flashback (the first being, of course, Smaug&#039;s attack on Erebor). And it introduces Dain as a character, and it sets up the appearance of Azog&#039;s son Bolg. I think it&#039;s so irresistible that it was probably already in the first movie (and the latest cast credits at IMDB indeed include Azog, Thror, Thrain, and Dain). I can even imagine it being parceled out in pieces as a parallel narrative.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thinking further&#8230; Thorin got his &#8220;Oakenshield&#8221; name at the Battle of Azanulbizar. The first movie lacks a major battle scene of any kind; all we have is the skirmish with the goblins. And what if Thror&#8217;s companion when he was killed by Azog in Moria was not Nar, but his grandson Thorin (age 44)? In which case the Dwarf / Goblin war (reduced to this single battle) fits in easily as the second major Thorin flashback (the first being, of course, Smaug&#8217;s attack on Erebor). And it introduces Dain as a character, and it sets up the appearance of Azog&#8217;s son Bolg. I think it&#8217;s so irresistible that it was probably already in the first movie (and the latest cast credits at IMDB indeed include Azog, Thror, Thrain, and Dain). I can even imagine it being parceled out in pieces as a parallel narrative.</p>
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