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***Shire Discussion: General Hobbit Culture



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 17, 12:15am


Views: 5323
***Shire Discussion: General Hobbit Culture

Welcome to the Shire Discussion, and thanks to Ethel for organizing us!

Radagast to Gandalf: "All I knew was that you might be found in a wild region with the uncouth name of Shire.”

What are we to make of this uncouth land which is hiding a trifle that Sauron fancies?

THE LAND
First off, there seems a special connection between the land of the Shire and the Shire-folk that is reminiscent of the Elf-environment connection made more explicit elsewhere.

When the Fellowship is in Hollin, Gandalf observes:

Quote
'There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.’

‘That is true,’ said Legolas. ‘But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us;...'



I firmly believe that if the hobbits left the Shire, an Elf would hear the fields and woods lament them: "deep they tilled us; carefully they tended us; merrily they laughed and drank upon us."
And it seemed that the rich, gentle land of the Shire shaped the hobbits as much as they shaped it:

Quote
The land was rich and kindly, and though it had long been deserted when they entered it, it had before been well tilled, and there the king had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods.




Could the hobbits have evolved their culture anywhere else in Middle-earth? Could we expect a similar Shire in Harad or Rhun, or in the middle of Gondor? Or did it lie at a unique wilderness juncture of protection by Elves, Rangers, and a Grey Wizard, enabling its people to prosper and indulge in pleasant pastimes? (While the Dwarves were frequent in the Shire, I don't see them playing a protective role.)


THE PEOPLE

While Tolkien mentions a few things hobbits don't like such as complex machinery, by and large he develops their culture by demonstrating what they enjoy.


Quote

they love peace and quiet and good tilled earth: a well-ordered and well-farmed countryside was their favourite haunt.


Not that it ends there. Birthdays were a perpetual delight.


Quote
Actually in Hobbiton and Bywater every day in the year was somebody’s birthday, so that every hobbit in those parts had a fair chance of at least one present at least once a week. But they never got tired of them.



And drinking and eating from noon to midnight was easily achievable regardless of age.
At other times there were merely lots of people eating and drinking – continuously from elevenses until six-thirty, when the fireworks started...About midnight carriages came for the important folk.

Does this sound like Rivendell or Minas Tirith to you? Can you readily imagine all-day community birthday parties and fireworks in those places? (rhetorical) What does it tell us about hobbit priorities in life?

Mixed in with conviviality is the hobbit penchant for gossip, either in taverns or in homes like Farmer Maggot's:

‘Drownded?’ said several voices. They had heard this and other darker rumours before, of course; but hobbits have a passion for family history, and they were ready to hear it again.

Though curiously hobbits' love of gossip-history doesn't connect with a love of lore-history.

A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them,

Do hobbits make sense in a Middle-earth where history is usually revered by the wise and ignored by the foolish? What could explain hobbits' disinterest in history?

Next up I would point out how hobbits possess an innate sense of humor and a general prankster nature:

Quote


Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.
He gave away presents to all and sundry – the latter were those who went out again by a back way and came in again by the gate.



Along with Bilbo's parting gift memos, which often included a joke of some kind, and only Lobelia was reported to be offended.

After Bilbo's party, there was chaos at Bag End as young hobbits knocked holes in the cellar walls looking for treasure and



Quote
A false rumour that the whole household was being distributed free spread like wildfire; and before long the place was packed with people who had no business there, but could not be kept out. Labels got torn off and mixed, and quarrels broke out. Some people tried to do swaps and deals in the hall; and others tried to make off with minor items not addressed to them, or with anything that seemed unwanted or unwatched.


Frodo remains curiously unruffled: while there are virtually no police to call (only 12 Shirriffs total), he doesn't employ security guards or fieldhands or anyone else to restore order by force or violence. To me this seems like part of the acceptable prankster culture in the Shire and thus no cause for alarm.

Birthdays, parties, drinking, eating, gossiping, pranks: is this the uncouth land of Shire people who are lazy and lower class? Or is there something beyond class that comes to mind?


For me, hobbit culture is best summarized as some mix of childhood and adolescence, where all these things are the obvious priorities in life, and other things like "career ambitions" lie in the realm of Boring Grownups. I'll add one more observation about Things That Boring Grownups Would Think Up when Bilbo's will is described:

Quote
It was, unfortunately, very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink).



Does hobbit culture appeal to you? Is the Shire a great place to live, or just a nice place to visit? Are hobbits an ideal that readers should aspire to, or should we be more like Elves (serious and contemplative), or should we try to be both? Or should we be Riders or Rohan or Faramir or Aragorn--darn it, who should I be emulating in this trilogy?!?!

Why does Shire culture produce quest heroes like Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin? If Shire culture is so happy and successful, why isn't it emulated by the other peoples of Middle-earth? If you were going to change anything about the Shire (which sounds blasphemous, so tread lightly, my friends), what would it be?

What else should we be discussing when we bring up general hobbit culture? And thanks for reading and participating! (apologies for the varied formatting)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 17, 1:28am


Views: 5218
I like the idea that

the land makes the people to some extent. It certainly is symbiotic at the least.
And I've always loved the idea in Tolkien that the land, trees, and stones can speak--and even remember.
This is really nice: "deep they tilled us; carefully they tended us; merrily they laughed and drank upon us."



Curious
Half-elven


Apr 17, 3:04am


Views: 5215
Answers

Q. Could the hobbits have evolved their culture anywhere else in Middle-earth? Could we expect a similar Shire in Harad or Rhun, or in the middle of Gondor? Or did it lie at a unique wilderness juncture of protection by Elves, Rangers, and a Grey Wizard, enabling its people to prosper and indulge in pleasant pastimes?

A. The Shire as Tolkien describes it is in fact based on the rural English village of his childhood. It's full of anachronisms that don't fit with the rest of Middle Earth. Tolkien acknowledges this in the Appendices, where he blames the anachronisms on his extremely loose translation of the original. Even the names of the hobbits are completely different.

So it's hard to say what the culture of the hobbits in the Shire really is, or really would be if Tolkien had made any effort at plausibility. That said, we do know that Golllum and Bilbo had common ground even though their respective cultures had been separated for hundreds of years. There was at least one other settlement of hobbits in Middle Earth, and they had some things in common with the hobbits of the Shire.

We also know that the Drúedain, the Wild Men who lived in Drúadan Forest north of the White Mountains, had a completely different culture even though they lived near Rohan and Gondor. There seem to be pockets of people all over Middle Earth who keep to themselves as much as possible and don't know much about even close neighbors, let along distant peoples. Gandalf and Aragorn may be the only inhabitants of Middle Earth who travel enough to know most of these insular communities.

So yes, I think the hobbits might have found another fertile and relatively isolated land to settle somewhere. They just needed some fertile land to till, and they would make it their own.

Q. Does this sound like Rivendell or Minas Tirith to you? Can you readily imagine all-day community birthday parties and fireworks in those places? (rhetorical) What does it tell us about hobbit priorities in life?

A. In The Hobbit the elves of Rivendell seemed quite light-hearted and full of child-like humor. They particularly enjoy teasing the visiting dwarves. In LotR they seem more somber, but it's a more somber time.

That said, the Shire is different from Rivendell or Minas Tirith. Elves and Men and Hobbits all have different interests. And while the Shire may seem idyllic, the hobbits themselves can be petty, gossipy, and irritating. Note that Bilbo has no close friends his own age. He must make do with Frodo and Frodo's friends.

Eating, drinking, and birthday presents were a daily event in the Shire, but not fireworks. That was a Gandalf specialty.

And the usual birthday presents were nothing like the ones Bilbo gave away. If you are giving multiple gifts almost every day of the year, you have to keep within budget. I'm sure there was a lot of regifting, too, and many hobbits might find themselves receiving a gift they had given away a month or year before, as it made the rounds.

As for hobbit priorities, Thorin said it best:

“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

The Shire is not a utopia, but it's pretty nice, nonetheless.

Q. Do hobbits make sense in a Middle-earth where history is usually revered by the wise and ignored by the foolish? What could explain hobbits' disinterest in history?

A. As I said, the hobbits and the Shire are anachronistic. They are modern, and therefore uninterested in history. The rest of Middle Earth is more akin to ancient cultures, where history -- at least of kings and generals and heroes and heroines -- was revered.

Q. Birthdays, parties, drinking, eating, gossiping, pranks: is this the uncouth land of Shire people who are lazy and lower class? Or is there something beyond class that comes to mind?

A. Radagast does not call the land of the Shire uncouth. Indeed, he knows nothing about it. He calls the name "Shire" uncouth, presumably because it doesn't roll off his tongue. But what sounds strange and uncouth to Radagast may not sound that way to Gandalf. Radagast, despite being one of the Istari or Wizards, is provincial. He stays among the beasts and rarely visits anyone else.

Q. Does hobbit culture appeal to you? Is the Shire a great place to live, or just a nice place to visit? Are hobbits an ideal that readers should aspire to, or should we be more like Elves (serious and contemplative), or should we try to be both? Or should we be Riders or Rohan or Faramir or Aragorn--darn it, who should I be emulating in this trilogy?!?!

A. The Shire is not a utopia but it is peaceful and fruitful, at least before Saruman gets involved. But the hobbits themselves can be quite irritating, wrong, ignorant, and stubborn. They are also quite conservative and set in their ways. In short, they have the virtues and vices of English villagers in the late 19th century. But at least they don't murder each other, and that's better than many other cultures of Middle Earth.

Q. Why does Shire culture produce quest heroes like Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin?

A. It normally doesn't. These are exceptional hobbits. And they are the direct result of Gandalf's meddling. He deliberately infected Bilbo with the wandering bug, and interest in elvish, and all kinds of strange notions and knowledge, and it just took a while for it to spread to another generation of young hobbits.

Q. If Shire culture is so happy and successful, why isn't it emulated by the other peoples of Middle-earth?

A. As I said, it's not all good. They are also ignorant and petty.

Q. If you were going to change anything about the Shire (which sounds blasphemous, so tread lightly, my friends), what would it be?

A. I would give Bilbo and Frodo more friends.

Q. What else should we be discussing when we bring up general hobbit culture?

A. Maybe the fact that Tolkien, despite his learning, believed he had much in common with the hobbits:

"I am in fact a Hobbit in all but size. I like gardens, trees, and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late (when possible). I do not travel much."

Letter 213. I suppose Tolkien was something like Bilbo, odd in some ways but still a hobbit with mostly hobbit tastes.


(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 17, 3:08am)


Silvered-glass
Lorien

Apr 17, 11:56am


Views: 5165
Answers on the Hobbit Culture


In Reply To
Could the hobbits have evolved their culture anywhere else in Middle-earth? Could we expect a similar Shire in Harad or Rhun, or in the middle of Gondor? Or did it lie at a unique wilderness juncture of protection by Elves, Rangers, and a Grey Wizard, enabling its people to prosper and indulge in pleasant pastimes?


I think the hobbits would have produced something similar to the Shire as long as they had a) fertile farmland and suitable weather, and b) absence of outsiders seeing the prosperity and deciding to invade. The second point is the difficult one in a troubled place such as Middle-earth.


In Reply To
Does this sound like Rivendell or Minas Tirith to you? Can you readily imagine all-day community birthday parties and fireworks in those places? (rhetorical) What does it tell us about hobbit priorities in life?


I think the priorities of life in Rivendell are not fundamentally so different from those of the Shire, but the population of Rivendell being immortal would naturally give a different perspective.

Minas Tirith is a different place entirely, shaped by the threat of Mordor and the need for strong central government.


In Reply To
Do hobbits make sense in a Middle-earth where history is usually revered by the wise and ignored by the foolish? What could explain hobbits' disinterest in history?


The book quote using the words "far from general" implies in its negation that a significant number of hobbits, perhaps even the majority, did have a love of learning. Of the main cast, Bilbo, Frodo, and Merry are downright scholars, and Sam also has an interest in learning about various things. Pippin is the least interested character, but it is unknown whether this might change with maturity. That's 80% love of learning in this admittedly non-random sample.


In Reply To
Birthdays, parties, drinking, eating, gossiping, pranks: is this the uncouth land of Shire people who are lazy and lower class? Or is there something beyond class that comes to mind?


The Shire doesn't have a culture of snobbery even among the high class. I can see this starting to change after the ending of the book with hobbits seeing the Gondorian culture as superior and worth emulating, though Aragorn's decree of banning humans from the Shire could get in the way of this.


In Reply To
Does hobbit culture appeal to you? Is the Shire a great place to live, or just a nice place to visit? Are hobbits an ideal that readers should aspire to, or should we be more like Elves (serious and contemplative), or should we try to be both? Or should we be Riders or Rohan or Faramir or Aragorn--darn it, who should I be emulating in this trilogy?!?!


The hobbits are meant to be ordinary people and familiar in many ways to the original intended audience. This has been obscured by the passage of time in the real world. Because of this the Shire wouldn't feel as cozy and familiar to me as it would have to people of Tolkien's time.

I think Tolkien's character development is deeper than most people give him credit for, so I don't see the likes of Faramir or Aragorn as meant to represent flawless ideal heroes. I think Tolkien didn't write characters with the intention of having them emulated by the readers. The most "perfect" hero in Tolkien might be Gil-galad and that's because he really has no detectable personality because of the narrative distance and the limited amount of knowledge we have of him. Gil-galad also dies heroically before he gets to do something to ruin his reputation, such as trying to take the One Ring for himself.


In Reply To
Why does Shire culture produce quest heroes like Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin?


I think the key point in this is that a secure and happy early childhood has in each of these characters produced a strong belief in the fundamental goodness of the world that allows for them to keep going, even when the situation seems hopeless and the power of the Dark Lord seems overwhelming. Even Frodo benefits from this despite the early death of his parents. He is the least optimistic hobbit already in the beginning of the story, though.


In Reply To
If Shire culture is so happy and successful, why isn't it emulated by the other peoples of Middle-earth?


Eriador is a post-post-apocalyptic setting, so many peoples simply would have no idea about the Shire even existing. Then there is the issue of different cultures having different values. Dwarves for example aren't going to become farmers just because they see hobbits being happy as farmers. Many countries also have real practical need for standing armies, etc.


In Reply To
If you were going to change anything about the Shire (which sounds blasphemous, so tread lightly, my friends), what would it be?


The Shire is dynamic, not static, and will change on its own, both from internal and external reasons. The Shire as depicted in the books is not in balance with nature and will continue to expand its borders as long as the birth rates remain high and no external force, such as running out of places to expand or a conflict with a more martial culture, gets in the way.

The happy Shire in the books is an accident(?) in time that contains the seeds of its own destruction - or at least radical change for better or worse.


In Reply To
What else should we be discussing when we bring up general hobbit culture?


- Cultural and technological development in the Shire. The hobbits as scientists, engineers, and capitalists. Foreign trade and relationships with other cultures.
- The hobbits as fairy creatures. Do the hobbits perhaps descend from the Avari?

I noticed these issues aren't in the schedule of topics, so perhaps this thread is the correct place for talking about these matters.


Roverandom
Bree


Apr 17, 7:12pm


Views: 5151
Some Sure As Shire Talk

To quote Sam Gamgee: "Well, I'm back." The many ups and downs of life have kept me off the boards for quite a while, but I'm going to make a concerted effort to get back in the game. Glad to have this opporunity to share some thoughts on the Shire! I'm not sure that I have any (Middle)Earth-shattering answers to your very good questions, but they have sparked a few ideas that I'd like to share.

Re: THE LAND
When Frodo asked Sam about his opinion of the Elves of Lorien, he replied, “I reckon there’s Elves and Elves. They’re all elvish enough, but they’re not all the same. Now these folk aren’t wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us:they seem to belong here, more than even hobbits do in the Shire. Whether they’ve made the land, or the land’s made them, it’s hard to say, if you take my meaning.” I think that the beauty of Tolkien's world-building is that different peoples seem to have that same relationship to their chosen homes. Consider also the Breeland and the comment "Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found.." Or the obvious relationships between the Rohirrim and the green fields of Rohan, the Dwarven kingdoms under various mountains, and the successful free trade zone of Mirkwood/Esgaroth/Erebor/Dale. I agree with your point that the land shaped the hobbits as much as they shaped it, and would argue that the same could be said in these other cases.

As a side thought, you mention the Dwarves in the Shire. I think that there is a whole separate discussion that could be made of the wandering travelers who have no time to stop for another group on the Great Road, the nameless Party helpers staying at Bag End, etc.

Re: THE PEOPLE
I think the Shire, and particularly the eponymous Hobbiton of which we are most familiar, is certainly meant to seem like Utopia at first glance. The fact that it is not, and that it is shown to have some serious flaws by story's end, just makes it feel like more of a real place. That's also what, in my opinion, makes for good writing. LotR would just be another fairy tale without the depth of character that is shown here and in many other places throughout the book. Having said that, the Shire would be a lovely place to settle in one's retirement!

As far as how the hobbits view history, it fits in with the rest of their make-up. Conservative, as was mentioned, and certainly set in their ways --- not the least bit interested in what they aren't interested. They remind me of Iowans in The Music Man:

"Oh, there's nothing halfway
About the Iowa way to treat you,
When we treat you
Which we may not do at all."

Anyone who is unfamiliar with the musical should check out the rest of Iowa Subborn's lyrics. The song could just as well have been written about hobbits.
Wink

For just as there has always been a Richard Webster, so too has there been a Black Scout of the North to greet him at the door on the threshold of the evening and to guard him through his darkest dreams.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 17, 7:23pm


Views: 5145
" . . . not the least bit interested in what they aren't interested."

Yes, I think that's pretty much it. Great way to put it! I think it makes the exceptions so much more exceptional. And poignant. It wouldn't be nearly the story it is without this contrast.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 18, 1:50am


Views: 5124
"Could the hobbits have evolved their culture anywhere else in Middle-earth?"

"Could we expect a similar Shire in Harad or Rhun, or in the middle of Gondor? Or did it lie at a unique wilderness juncture of protection by Elves, Rangers, and a Grey Wizard, enabling its people to prosper and indulge in pleasant pastimes?"

I apparently have a minority opinion on this, at least partly. Yes, I think the rich, protected farmland with a convenient river and apt climate are relevant. Although, as others have said, those conditions existed elsewhere as did earlier hobbits, the nature of the land its environment in combination with its situation at a 3-way "juncture of protection," along with Bombadil as something of a buffer, gave the area a unique sort of stability. There were other Hobbit colonies, but eventually they found it necessary to move, and, from what I understand, were not in an environment as stable and as protected long-term as was the case in the Shire.
I think all this taken together would encourage those tendencies of insularity and conservatism, which is natural, since the Hobbits had an environment there in the Shire which they had reason to want to preserve as-is.
So, I think all these rural English village characteristics Curious mentioned would have been entrenched and intensified in the Shire, which could easily give rise to it's own slant on basic Hobbit character, and probably some more specialized customs.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 18, 1:52am


Views: 5121
And, so good to see you back! :) //

 



Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 18, 10:42am


Views: 5078
Actually about the Shire

Does there exist anywhere an official map of the Shire? I know there is one in Lotr but that is only part of the Shire. I'm not 100% clear where the borders really are. I also wonder if it is bigger than we might think. It certainly takes the Hobbits a few days to travel across it. By foot anyway,


GreenHillFox
Bree


Apr 18, 2:08pm


Views: 5055
About the borders of the Shire

In the Prologue one can find the following indications:

For it was in the one thousand six hundred and first year of the Third Age that the Fallohide brothers, Marcho and Blanco, set out from Bree; and having obtained permission from the high king at Fornost, they crossed the brown river Baranduin with a great following of Hobbits. They passed over the Bridge of Stonebows, that had been built in the days of the power of the North Kingdom, and they took all the land beyond to dwell in, between the river and the Far Downs.

This indicates the limits in the West (the Far Downs) and in the East (except that in the East the hobbits annexed Buckland later on, making the Old Forest a part of the East border too).

Nothing seems to have been mentioned about the borders North and South; but in the same Prologue we also have this:

Forty leagues it stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge, and fifty from the northern moors to the marshes in the south.

By the latter, I suppose the Overbourne Marshes are meant. One league is assumed to correspond to 3 miles or 4.8km.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 19, 1:53am


Views: 4995
The People

THE PEOPLE

While Tolkien mentions a few things hobbits don't like such as complex machinery, by and large he develops their culture by demonstrating what they enjoy.


Quote

they love peace and quiet and good tilled earth: a well-ordered and well-farmed countryside was their favourite haunt.

Not that it ends there. Birthdays were a perpetual delight.


Quote
Actually in Hobbiton and Bywater every day in the year was somebody’s birthday, so that every hobbit in those parts had a fair chance of at least one present at least once a week. But they never got tired of them.


And drinking and eating from noon to midnight was easily achievable regardless of age.
At other times there were merely lots of people eating and drinking – continuously from elevenses until six-thirty, when the fireworks started...About midnight carriages came for the important folk.

Does this sound like Rivendell or Minas Tirith to you? Can you readily imagine all-day community birthday parties and fireworks in those places? (rhetorical) What does it tell us about hobbit priorities in life?

Both Rivendell and Minas Tirith are more "serious" then the Shire-folk in general. But Rivendell, in a fairly protected environment, has much more of a relaxed social environment then Gondor, where, as thedescendants of Numenorians, everyone seems to either take themselves or at least their culture very seriously. And of course they are in the middle of a war so it's understandable that anything that might simply be thought of as "fun" or frivolous wouldn't be likely to occur.

So it seems to me that both Rivendell and the Shire have some social similarities partly because they are in a more protected environment, and also one where the struggle for daily existence isn't very difficult.

Except for those "tra-lallys" in The Hobbit, "Rivendellian" culture seems calm and dignified, but social gatherings are common and possibly hosted dinners may be as well, although we only have one instance in the Lord of the Rings due to all those distinguished visitors. The Hall of Fire gathering did seem to be a regular occurrence, with Bilbo bringing Shire culture right into the middle of it. They didn't always seem to take him seriously, but they seem to enjoy his presence in what seems like a relaxed atmosphere.

"'Now we had better have it again,' said an Elf. Bilbo got up and bowed. 'I am flattered, Lindir,' he said. 'But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.' 'Not too tiring for you,' the Elves answered laughing. 'You know you are never tired of reciting your own verses. But really we cannot answer your question at one hearing!' 'What!' cried Bilbo. 'You can't tell which parts were mine, and which were the Dunedain's?' 'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals,' said the Elf. 'Nonsense, Lindir,' snorted Bilbo. 'If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples.' 'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. 'Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.' 'I won't argues with you,' said Bilbo. 'I am sleepy after so much music and singing. I'll leave you to guess, if you want to.'"
I would say that social gatherings in Gondor seem nonexistent, other than simply gathering for lunch because they had to eat. And the obvious priority socially and otherwise would be discipline and a focus on whatever was necessary for the survival of the culture.
Rivendell's values, based only on the social gatherings we are told about, would seem to be calm, relatively dignified interactions in a pleasant atmosphere--with touches of humor; as well as a love of culture, poetry and song. I'm guessing that until Bilbo came along, that was generally what might be called "high culture," although we still have those tra-lallys in the Hobbit.

What the Hobbits in the Shire value socially as priorities--if you only think of the Unexpected Party and the lead up to it--are things like humor, jokes, generosity, a relatively egalitarian approach to each other compared to the other two cultures, with a relaxed approach to dignity and manners, like the Proudfeet on the table, which people did notice, but no one seem to feel the need to rebuke.


Mixed in with conviviality is the hobbit penchant for gossip, either in taverns or in homes like Farmer Maggot's:

Drownded?’ said several voices. They had heard this and other darker rumours before, of course; but hobbits have a passion for family history, and they were ready to hear it again.

Though curiously hobbits' love of gossip-history doesn't connect with a love of lore-history.

A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them,
Although a love of learning was far [away] from the state of being generally present among them, "general" does leave room for a fair number of individual exceptions.

Do hobbits make sense in a Middle-earth where history is usually revered by the wise and ignored by the foolish? What could explain hobbits' disinterest in history?

The Hobbit's interest in genealogy was about family identity and belonging, and social standing, and the reasons people our interested in places like ancestry.com, like a sense of pride and inspiration, and possibly a hope for continuity based on the status and accomplishment of their ancestors. It's not about history as such.

If the Shire is anything, it seems to be about who is who, and how they relate to each other, and just a general sense of belonging, although there is definitely some social stratification.

But it wouldn't be surprising if, for some, this digging into family history would spark an interest in history in general. I wonder if that's what got Bilbo interested.






Annael
Immortal


Apr 19, 3:52pm


Views: 4936
this has always been a favorite idea with me

that the land shapes the people and the culture. I picked that idea up from James Michener after reading The Source, where he posits that religions which came out of the desert tend to be harsher than religions that arose in other areas. But mostly I think about it in relation to colonization. Colonizers oppress indigenous people and cultures when they first arrive, but the longer they live on that new land, the more--I think and hope--the land itself works on them, until they start to become open to and even adopt some of the ways of the local natives. We call it cultural appropriation but perhaps it goes deeper than that. Here in the Pacific Northwest of the US, awareness of and interest in local tribal customs has been steadily growing, more and more people are using native names for local features, and the tribes are having more and more influence on state environmental practices. My feeling is that this is all because most people just can't live in this beautiful place for long without coming to love it and wanting to tend to it with respect. Even the hardest-hearted respond with rejoicing any time the clouds part and "the Mountain" - Rainier, or to use its original name, Tahoma - can be seen, and most of the people I know go so far as to say "that's my mountain." We feel a personal relationship.

I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


(This post was edited by Annael on Apr 19, 3:53pm)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 19, 6:43pm


Views: 4924
My family certainly does.

Our spot has been RMNP, and it always feels like coming home. We always approach them by driving in the same way, because to us it's like a carefully written but divinely inspired symphony. First, there is the glimpse of the high peaks at the edge of the high plains, where we all try to figure out who has really seen them first, or are they "just clouds." Then it's the approach through Big Thomson Canyon, where my mom always sings part of Brahms first symphony, and the rest of us are mostly inspired to awed silence. And then the Rockies open out. I would say that land has shaped us profoundly, even though we don't live there, but perhaps the plains where we grew up shaped us into people who desire uplift and exaltation.

(There's something about the plains, too.)

Unfortunately, like the plains, some landscapes seem to inspire use rather than appreciation, although that, too, has begun to shift; but I agree that mountains and their surroundings are so intoxicating--and arresting--that it would be natural for that to begin to change people.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Apr 19, 6:44pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 22, 12:24am


Views: 4671
The problem with assessing hobbit technology is we know it’s anachronistic.

If the hobbits have mantle clocks that keep accurate time that’s advanced technology compared to the rest of Middle Earth. But do they really have mantle clocks? It’s hard to say.

Similarly, the hobbits have morning and evening mail, and long and complicated wills, suggesting they are highly literate. But are they really highly literate, or is this another anachronism?


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 22, 1:14am


Views: 4668
Writer Guy Davenport claimed that Tolkien latched on to his classmate’s tales of Kentucky.

The classmate of Tolkien’s was Allen Barnett, a Kentucky lawyer. Davenport claimed Barnett had no knowledge of Tolkien’s fiction, but remembered how much he liked tales of Kentucky. Davenport quoted Barnett saying:

“‘You know, [Tolkien] used to have the most extraordinary interest in the people here in Kentucky. He could never get enough of my tales of Kentucky folk. He used to make me repeat family names like Barefoot and Boffin and Baggins and good country names like that.’”

Davenport noted that tobacco is grown and cured in Kentucky like pipeweed is in the Shire:

“Practically all the names of Tolkien's hobbits are listed in my Lexington phone book, and those that aren't can be found over in Shelbyville. Like as not, they grow and cure pipeweed for a living. Talk with them, and their turns of phrase are pure hobbit: ‘I hear tell,’ ‘right agin,’ ‘Mr. Frodo is his first and second cousin, once removed either way,’ ‘this very month as is.’ These are English locutions, of course, but ones that are heard oftener now in Kentucky than England.”

I have never seen any corroboration of Davenport’s claim, and it may just be that the rural village in which Tolkien grew up has a lot in common with rural villages in Kentucky or, as you suggest, Iowa. But the tobacco connection is interesting, and I don’t think they cured tobacco in Tolkien’s English village.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/02/23/archives/hobbits-in-kentucky.html


(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 22, 1:18am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 22, 2:08am


Views: 4656
Mantle Clocks and Mail


In Reply To
If the hobbits have mantle clocks that keep accurate time that’s advanced technology compared to the rest of Middle Earth. But do they really have mantle clocks? It’s hard to say.

Similarly, the hobbits have morning and evening mail, and long and complicated wills, suggesting they are highly literate. But are they really highly literate, or is this another anachronism?



I still suspect that Bilbo's mantle clock was of dwarvish make. The technology needed seems more in-line with the Dwarves.

Tolkien writes in his prologue to LotR that some hobbits were literate, but it was hardly universal. Mostly, it seems that it was the more well-to-do families where literacy flourished.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 22, 3:16am


Views: 4650
I did a quick look online

and found some old phone book records from Lexington, and randomly checked 1972. https://babel.hathitrust.org/...89223314&seq=131
I didn't find actual Hobbit last names, but I did find Buffin, Berryhill, Berryman, Barrow, Barnhill, and best of all, Bagshaw (Bagshot Row?).



Silvered-glass
Lorien

Apr 22, 12:09pm


Views: 4596
The Formal Side of the Hobbits

It is easy to see the hobbits as more free-spirited than they really are.


Quote
Otho would have been Bilbo’s heir, but for the adoption of Frodo. He read the will carefully and snorted. It was, unfortunately, very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink).


I wonder how many wills have been invalidated because of ink color. Otho could have ended up owning Bag End and the One Ring if Bilbo had made a small technical error in his will, and the entire plot would have been derailed.


Quote
"I do take Sméagol under my protection," said Frodo. Sam sighed audibly; and not at the courtesies, of which, as any hobbit would, he thoroughly approved. Indeed in the Shire such a matter would have required a great many more words and bows.


The hobbits also appear to have degrees in how low they bow, though the text doesn't make a big deal of it. A modern person visiting the Shire could get quite an East Asian impression.

And speaking of East Asia, hobbit dwellings appear to be based on the Chinese yaodong. Perhaps in Tolkien's world the two have a shared origin in the mists of the history that the hobbits chose to forget.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong

This yaodong was used by Mao as his headquarters:



If the windows and doors were fully round instead of half round, the building would match Tolkien's descriptions. I wonder if "No admittance except on party business" was a subtle joke referencing this with a birthday party in place of a Communist party.


Silvered-glass
Lorien

Apr 22, 3:55pm


Views: 4589
The Plausibility of Hobbit Technology

The Shire is an unusually sheltered place in Middle-earth, which would give a chance for technology to flourish in an entirely plausible way. The Shire also is capitalist in its economic structure, allowing for rich hobbits to invest in new production methods and hire workers. There should be plenty to hire with the expanding population. As for hobbits supposedly not being interested in advanced technology, Lotho Sackville-Baggins and Ted Sandyman show otherwise. It only takes a few innovators in the right place to push technology forward.

Middle-earth has very large differences between cultures because people just don't get around very much. Gondor is more advanced in many ways than Rohan, and near the two live the hunter-gatherer Drúedain. The North despite its general wildness at least has some trade routes, which give the hobbits access to metals while Dwarves get to import agricultural products such as pipeweed. The Sackville-Bagginses are mentioned to own a plantation, so it's not all just cozy little family farms.

According to Wikipedia, the clock on Bilbo's mantelpiece would require early 15th century technology at the minimum, which sounds hardly impossible:

Quote
Minor developments were added, such as the invention of the mainspring in the early 15th century, which allowed small clocks to be built for the first time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._timekeeping_devices

It is unclear if Bilbo's clock was advanced enough to have a pendulum, but there is nothing in the text requiring for the Shire clocks to have the refinements to make them truly accurate. Bilbo's clock could well be off by multiple minutes each day, the actual amount varying with the weather. Hobbits in any case do clearly have some capability to work with gears, as can be seen in the existence of the watermill, an an ancient invention but nevertheless possessing a degree of mechanical complexity. The application of waterpower in industry beyond grinding grain also dates to classical antiquity.

Notably according to Wikipedia, the first attested paper mill in Europe dates to 1282. Paper is shown as common and affordable in the Shire. A few competing paper mills explains this handily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermill

The curved mirror that Bilbo gifts to Angelica Baggins also shows that optics are not unknown in the Shire nor good mirrors prohibitively expensive. Speculatively speaking, it would not be impossible for a clever hobbit to develop a telescope. It is only a small cognitive step from seeing one's face looking big to wanting to see distant objects looking big. We know that hobbits such as Frodo do look at the sky and care about the names of the stars and the constellations, so a curious hobbit looking through a primitive telescope and discovering the moons of Jupiter would be entirely plausible.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23, 3:23am


Views: 4549
Tolkien's cultural interests

In general, I thought Tolkien was not an admirer of the USA, but people can always make exceptions, and maybe he liked smoking tobacco so much, he felt a special spot in his pipe for Kentucky and its ways. It's clear in LOTR that pipeweed/tobacco is special not just for the pastime it supports but for hobbit pride. Just think of Merry meeting King Theoden for the first time and launching into the story of Old Toby finding the first pipeweed, as if everyone should know that story.

It is the cultural diversity of M-Earth that makes it so interesting, even if some seems transparent, such as Oxfordshire = Shire, Norse/Germanics = Rohan, or rustic tribes found in the Amazon or Papua New Guinea = Ghan Buri Ghan's people. It still works. I think like for any good chef, he was a master at mixing the ingredients into a great new culinary delight.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23, 3:42am


Views: 4556
Good point about the Druadan, but

I think something essential to the Shire is how gentle and easily prosperous the people are, and that's a reflection of the protection they receive from the Rangers as well as their distance from any harmful realm. It's just a thought experiment and has no definitive answers, and I think on a purely speculative basis that the Shire might exist where the Woodmen of Mirkwood live. We know next to nothing about them, but they seem to be a small realm with their own rules like the Shire, and they don't get wiped out by forces from Dol Guldur or invaders from Rhun, as if they live below the radar as the Shire-hobbits do.



In Reply To
And while the Shire may seem idyllic, the hobbits themselves can be petty, gossipy, and irritating. Note that Bilbo has no close friends his own age. He must make do with Frodo and Frodo's friends.

A zillion years ago when Barliman's Chat was active on this site and I participated in book talks there, I remember someone named Christine giving a memorable distinction between romanticized and idealized societies: "in romanticized ones the garbage never stinks. In ideal ones, there is no garbage." So that helps me keep perspective on the lovable Shire: it's romanticized, but it still has garbage like gossip, envy, and regional bigotry. But I'm not a cancel culture guy, so I still think it's a great place, and I'd happily live in Bag End, but I'd turn my nose up at the dirt holes on Bagshot Row along with the suspicion of literacy.

Good point about Bilbo/Frodo lacking friends. That bothered me since my very first read. Usually the heroes of quests are rewarded with gold, fame, pretty wives, and lots of friends, and that reader bias lingers, making me rueful that they are lonely bachelors. And it's a bit odd that Tolkien wrote that fate for both of them, but I think he saw it as a natural product of Shire cultural conformity where eccentric, rich heroes just don't fit in.

And thanks for yet another dose of CuriousTM insight, which is why it's so nice to see you here again:


Quote
Q. Why does Shire culture produce quest heroes like Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin?

A. It normally doesn't. These are exceptional hobbits. And they are the direct result of Gandalf's meddling. He deliberately infected Bilbo with the wandering bug, and interest in elvish, and all kinds of strange notions and knowledge, and it just took a while for it to spread to another generation of young hobbits.






CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23, 3:55am


Views: 4553
Welcome back, Roverandom!

And thanks for your input, including enlarging on my point about people belonging to their land and vice versa:

Quote
Consider also the Breeland and the comment "Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found.." Or the obvious relationships between the Rohirrim and the green fields of Rohan, the Dwarven kingdoms under various mountains, and the successful free trade zone of Mirkwood/Esgaroth/Erebor/Dale. I agree with your point that the land shaped the hobbits as much as they shaped it, and would argue that the same could be said in these other cases.


When I do re-reads of any part of LOTR, it always feels like there's a sort of hazy mingling zone between a land and its people, similar to ocean rocky beaches where the mist mingles with the air and forms a combination of the two. It gives readers the feeling that people belong where they are and it's a crime against nature to dislodge them, which helps involve us in the struggles of the good guys. Isn't it a crime for ruffians to disrupt the Shire's comfort and laxity about rules, or for Saruman and Sauron to put pressure on the happy horses of Rohan? Just feels wrong, like seeing a helpless person beat up in the street that makes your blood boil, so you get involved on the right side. That observation that Sam makes packs a lot of philosophical punch.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23, 4:03am


Views: 4552
You're not alone. I think the Shire is a Silmaril of sorts

A one-of-a-kind creation not to be reproduced anywhere else, just as Breeland was unique.

The Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits," has this to say, which makes me think it was part fate, part hobbit-will that forged the Shire-hobbit connection after they migrated there from Breeland:


Quote
At once the western Hobbits fell in love with their new land, and they remained there,


That instant love, like falling in love at first sight, which is how Elves fall in love. I think it was meant to be.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 23, 9:53pm


Views: 4491
Such a great insight!

And here we have one answer to many of my scattered questions:

Quote
If the Shire is anything, it seems to be about who is who, and how they relate to each other, and just a general sense of belonging, although there is definitely some social stratification.


I appreciate your explanation of their interest in genealogy, which to me is history, but I think you're much more on target with:


Quote
The Hobbit's interest in genealogy was about family identity and belonging, and social standing, and the reasons people are interested in places like ancestry.com, like a sense of pride and inspiration, and possibly a hope for continuity based on the status and accomplishment of their ancestors.


Now I get it. A Baggins would study 20 generations of Baggins to feel good about being a Baggins in the present, have bragging rights about past Bagginses, and continue a sense of social status and entitlement. (Not the same historical curiosity I abound with, such as how did the relatively small population of medieval Vikings get all the way to modern-day Ukraine!?!?!?!?!?)

Then re: your comments on Rivendell and Gondor: I think we're helped to understand Rivendell culture because not much happens there, so Tolkien is at his leisure to describe the place. By contrast, it's always something that I feel is a bit missing in Gondor: what is the culture of this place when it's not at war? We are given hints and asides, but I guess I always want more.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 24, 5:54pm


Views: 4405
I think people always adapt to the land more than they realize themselves

And as an American, it's always baffled me a bit in our history that even though the European colonizers felt superior to the Native Americans when they took their land, look at how many Native names were retained for states, cities, rivers, etc., rather than replacing all those names with "better" names of Euro-origin.

In the Shire's case, I feel like the land could have lain fallow for centuries and that would have been okay, but it had a sort of agency, I believe, and embraced the hobbits' presence when they arrived, just as they embraced it as their home in a symbiotic relationship. That does seem rather nebulous and New Age-y, but it's still a gut feeling I have whenever reading about Shire-hobbits.


Silvered-glass
Lorien

Apr 25, 8:55am


Views: 27665
The Hobbits: Men or Avari?

Hobbits are generally thought to be a sub-type of Men, but I think a strong argument could be made that hobbits instead descend from the mysterious Avari Elves, of whom so little is known, though their love of their home regions and lack of desire to go on grand adventures would certainly be considered hobbitish traits.

Hobbits with their preternatural stealth abilities and remarkably sharp senses (Bilbo for example can spot the waxing crescent on the sky earlier than a human could) do not quite fit the category of "humans except short". Beyond the height, hobbits according to Tolkien have pointed "Elvish" ears and the hobbits' distinctive characteristic of furry feet are well known (and according to Tolkien are really furry legs, not just feet). In more circumstantial detail, the hobbits' fondness for trees, nature in general, and underground dwellings is reminiscent of Elves. Hobbits are naturally nimble and good at ranged attacks from childhood, and a very significant but often overlooked detail is the stature of the hobbits reportedly growing gradually shorter as generations pass. This suggests that hobbits are subject to the fading of the Elves, which would make no sense unless hobbits are deep down really a type of Elf.

The main piece of evidence, and a very strong one, in favor of hobbits being Men is the mortality of the hobbits. To support this might perhaps be added individual feelings about the hobbits being too "ordinary" to be related to Elves. Yet we must remember that hobbits look ordinary through the eyes of hobbits. A non-hobbit POV character could well have seen a number of alien details that the hobbit narrators ignored as ordinary and not worth mentioning.

As for the critical issue of mortality, this could be solved simply with the hobbits having a small amount of human blood from distant past, even one drop being enough to transfer mortality on all descendants. However there is also another, more obscure explanation that may have been what Tolkien really intended but, like many details in the backstory, wasn't really conveyed in the works published during Tolkien's lifetime.

Going to The Book of Lost Tales, where we can infer that mortality is not the real Gift of Men (unforeseeable free will is), but rather mortality was inflicted on Middle-earth by Fui Nienna, the other Vala of death. I don't think Tolkien necessarily abandoned this concept even if it didn't make it to The Silmarillion. I also wonder if Gollum might be really the character Nuin from Gilfanon's Tale. The two share many similarities in character, and there are good reasons to think that Gandalf's version of Gollum's backstory isn't exactly reliable.

This is however getting far from the main subject of this thread and would be better discussed elsewhere.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 26, 2:34am


Views: 27642
Falling in love--

It does sound from that quote as if there was something about the Shire Lands that fit the Hobbits' sensibilities and longings like nothing they had seen before, and nowhere they had been before. Smile



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 26, 2:55am


Views: 27640
" . . . how did the relatively small population of medieval Vikings get all the way to modern-day Ukraine!"

Yeah, I'm with you. Along with who were the Sumerians, really, and when are they going to finally decipher the Etruscan Language!

You're right about Gondor. I don't know if the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence," or if we're just not told.



(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Apr 26, 2:55am)


Roverandom
Bree


Apr 26, 4:05pm


Views: 27593
The Gondor Problem...

We have now touched on something that has quietly ttroubled me in every reading of LotR. The Gondor chapters seem a bit rushed. Maybe it's simply a matter of suffering by comparison, as we are given a wealth of information about Rohan, its history, language, and culture. We spend so much time in Rohan that we feel we know the place like we were natives. The chapters flow at the proper pace, and characters like Theoden, Eowyn, even Wormtounge are given the opportunity to develop. The rolling meads and darkened mountain vales almost become characters in their own right. Gondor, with fewer chapters devoted to that same background, feels less of a real place, particularly as we come to the tipping point of its (and its leader, Denethor's) fall. I suspect that this is a planned effort to show us how ancient but fragile is the last, great city of Numenor, but there are times I wish the author had taken just a little more time in leading us to the brink and showed us more of why we should care about its perilous state.

On the other hand, I would argue that we do get some of what you (and the rest of us) are pining for through our time with Faramir. By all measurement, he is the Compleat Man of Gondor and, by extension, Numenor. When we look at Faramir showing his quality --- blending courage with courtesy, making hard decisions with justice, maintaining meal-time customs even in the Wild, reminding us in word and deed how a Numenorean should live and lay down his life --- I think we are meant to appreciate and better understand Gondor. In the same way, our journey with Boromir and audience with Denethor provide us a similar opportunity, albeit coming off in a less-flattering light.

So, in retrospect, I take back everything I said about Gondor being a problem. Sly

For just as there has always been a Richard Webster, so too has there been a Black Scout of the North to greet him at the door on the threshold of the evening and to guard him through his darkest dreams.


GreenHillFox
Bree


Apr 26, 4:21pm


Views: 27583
How hobbits experienced leaving the Shire

I love the dense, atmospheric tone in JRRT’s description, when he came to write about the hobbits leaving the Shire.

It started with Frodo waking up to a nightmare at Crickhollow. Then the cheerless stealth by which they left the house (“Everything was still, and far-away noises seemed near and clear: fowls chattering in a yard, someone closing a door of a distant house”). The ominous fog (“the mist, which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them”). The final move: “It shut with a clang, and the lock clicked. The sound was ominous.”

It is wonderful to read between the lines how hobbits felt like leaving a great part of themselves behind while leaving the Shire, in these few finely crafted paragraphs.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 26, 7:12pm


Views: 27557
Oh, Gondor

From an analytical sense, I think you answered the problem by pointing out that Faramir with Frodo in Ithilien/Henneth Annun is our stand-in for Gondor's psyche, ideals, and culture, but as a reader, I remember it made me "aesthetically angry" on my very first read that Gondor "unfairly" received more coverage than Rohan. I even kept browsing and comparing the Rohan and Gondor chapters, trying to make sure it wasn't a false impression.
Now it's all a bit blurry, and reading the appendices filled in a lot for me, especially since Gondor's history is clearly on a more epic scale than Rohan's, but that sense stills creeps up on me doing a straight re-read of LOTR.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 26, 9:11pm


Views: 27540
"Well-run societies don’t need heroes"

Today I rediscovered a blog by one of my favorite modern thinkers, Zeynep Tufekci, a Turkish-American sociologist who breaks the mold on academia and bravely (and expertly) writes on many topics outside her initial field of study, weaving together ideas from multiple perspectives, including technology and dealing with COVID. She has a knack for explaining things at great length and also punching readers with concise statements like my post title here. I'm haunted by her blunt statement that "institutions only work as long as we all agree to support them," because that's not a safe assumption anymore.

Conclusion: the Shire has no heroes because it's well-run. (And also doesn't normally face external threats.)

She wrote one of the most insightful explorations of why Game of Thrones ended badly for most fans: it shifted from a sociological story to a psychology one, and fans (like me) had bought into and had been intrigued by the sociology (such as Essos-Dany fighting slavery, trying to re-shape society, and finding society shaped her. Long article here that's worth the read and had crossover with Tolkien if you're a Tolkien fan and project your values on it.

In the short-term it gives context to hobbits, culture, and heroism, but it also could make a good, separate discussion of LOTR and how it seems a hybrid of sociological and psychological stories.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 26, 9:14pm


Views: 27535
Indeed! Thanks for your insights

Especially about hobbits leaving a part of themselves behind in the Shire. I think that steeled them in some ways on their quest, knowing they were protecting their homeland, but it also made them homesick.

I tried to focus on the tonally upbeat passages depicting Shire culture, but we need to venture into darker passages too as our discussion matures and develops, so thanks for bringing that up.


oliphaunt
Lorien


Apr 28, 4:17pm


Views: 25784
*MEANT* to be?

Could the Shire have had a bit of assistance behind-the-scenes?
After all,

Quote
There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Was the Shire meant to be a safe haven? It did, after all, incubate an excellent Burglar and a group of heroes.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


oliphaunt
Lorien


Apr 28, 5:16pm


Views: 25703
The Shire makes the Hobbits or the Hobbits make the Shire?

 As CuriousG put it:

Quote
In the Shire's case, I feel like the land could have lain fallow for centuries and that would have been okay, but it had a sort of agency, I believe, and embraced the hobbits' presence when they arrived, just as they embraced it as their home in a symbiotic relationship


If the Shire was meant to be the home for Hobbits, it sure could work like this. Gandalf the Grey doesn't have any direct comments to make about this idea, but his interest in the Shire and Hobbits surely has a purpose. Gandalf the White probably knew a lot more, but wasn't one for answering questions.


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 28, 5:44pm


Views: 25660
I must have been hungry. I read that as

". . . incubate an excellent Burger . . ." Blush

Anyway, about possible Outside Forces: I actually do think so, even if only indirectly. Too much hinges on Bilbo and Frodo, along with the "meant," for the existence of the Shire to be entirely off the radar of the Valar. But how much specific intervention--or not--may have occurred, it's hard to say.
*Goes off to play around with possible radar/Valar combinations* Angelic




oliphaunt
Lorien


Apr 28, 6:53pm


Views: 25547
Hamburglar?

Perhaps a hamburglar?


*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 28, 7:05pm


Views: 25533
The Shire was meant to...create great burgers

AI art strikes again.




Silvered-glass
Lorien

Apr 28, 9:45pm


Views: 25291
The Unlikely Shire


In Reply To
Could the Shire have had a bit of assistance behind-the-scenes?
After all,

Quote
There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Was the Shire meant to be a safe haven? It did, after all, incubate an excellent Burglar and a group of heroes.


Yes, I've also been thinking about the Shire along these lines, but I didn't make a thread on it because there is a rather bad lack of supporting evidence. I can think of a few things, but they're very arguable.

If my LotR sequel ever happens (I've been working on and revising the outline) I'm planning on having the secret of the Shire's protection included in the story.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 28, 10:07pm


Views: 25272
Ah! Hmmm, yes.

Must be.
McDonalds owes the Tolkien Estate for copyright violations.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Apr 28, 10:10pm


Views: 25280
HAaaahahahahaha!

Kind of horrifying in a way. (Is that sign trying to be German or something?)
The prices are certainly competitive.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 28, 11:15pm


Views: 25218
We're definitely in the realm of gut feelings and head canons here


In Reply To
Yes, I've also been thinking about the Shire along these lines, but I didn't make a thread on it because there is a rather bad lack of supporting evidence. I can think of a few things, but they're very arguable.

I agree there's no hard evidence for saying the Shire was meant to be. It just feels that way to me as a reader.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 9:58am


Views: 19335
When I imagine The Shire, land and peoeple...

When I imagine The Shire, land and people, I'm aware that not all of it is what Tolkien has communicated explicitly. A lot of it is my inference, and my making sense of the text as best I can.

Where those inferences come from are of course:
  1. My own experiences
  2. Ideas I have picked up culturally - things I have read or been told, or absorbed through the arts or media.
I imagine that's true for everyone, with resulting variations in how we imagine things?

There is much more of item (2) in recent years than there was when I first read LOTR some time in the 1970s. Tolkien Fandom existed then, but it wasn't obvious how to get connected to it, and I didn't. So -- probably like most readers up to that point and until social media-- I had to use my own resources to imagine what things were like. There weren't the films, memes, fan art, and all that: ideas and objects that are probably well-nigh inescapable now. I think it would be unusual to start reading LOTR now with no prior expectations.

Both items (1) and (2) were/are individual to me, and different for each of us. I grew up (and have remained) living in Southern England so my experiences relate to that countryside, and those cultures. It will come out differently, I expect, if someone is imagining Kentucky rather than Kent, Darjeeling rather than Dorset, or Oregon rather than Oxfordshire.

But, given what my own (1) and (2) are, I don't think The Shire is really closely based on any real English Village, or anywhere I could have visited, or read about from the history of Tolkien's time. It seems obvious to me that Tolkien is capitalising on tropes about English Country Life. Ideas of how it used to be that had percolated into British or English culture, whether or not they could be confirmed by dilligent historians.

It's notable that either side of Tolkien's birth there was a lot of interest in the real or imagined state of how things used to be*. Maybe it was a reaction to the early and rapid industrialisation and urbification of England in the Nineteenth Century. That would seem to me to explain what might seem an oddity: that it's a specifically rural English idyll when long before Tolkien was born the English had become (statistically speaking) an urban and suburban people.

But there it is, a set of ideas in the culture providing a large bank of images and tropes Tolkien could use (or which I find I use whether or not that was what Tolkien hoped or expected).

I think that was a good choice by Tolkien (if it was a choice). Few things slow down a fantasy or science fiction story to such a turgid mess as an author who insists on too-speedily introducing the minutae of the orignal landscape or culture or language they've had fun inventing**.

---*For a prodigious list of such things from the Edwardian Era, I recommend Little Englanders: Britain in the Edwardian Era by Alwyn Turner, published by Profile. There's also an interesting analysis, but it is too long for me either to attempt to summarise, or to quote directly.

** This is done enough to have, for example a Turkey City Lexicon entry:

Quote
Call a Rabbit a Smeerp
A cheap technique for false exoticism, in which common elements of the real world are re-named for a fantastic milieu without any real alteration in their basic nature or behavior. “Smeerps” are especially common in fantasy worlds, where people often ride exotic steeds that look and act just like horses. (Attributed to James Blish).


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 10:57am


Views: 19210
A whiff of Kentucky moonshine, I think?

Wait, how would that work, exactly?

If genuine parallels in names and speech exist with Kentucky I'm not surprised, but I suspect that is to do with where the Old Country was for a lot of (white) Kentuckyians.

For fun, I'm imagining how such things could have become unique to Kentucky.

Let's have Daniel Boone (I think it was?) leading that expedition of people into Kentucky and then demanding that they abandon the names and manner of speaking they have brought with them from The Old Country.
"From now on," Daniel says "you shall be known by the hobbit-style names I shall now give you, and speak in a new way that I shall proceed to teach!"

Fun to imagine, but most likely that didn't happen-- and any Shire-style surnames or talk found in Kentucky came across from the Old World.

Hobbit-talk is easily derrived from British English accents. I can vouch for that personally - to me it sounds like a sometimes exaggerated version of how a lot of my family talk. I can also hear accents like it in my home of Oxfordshire too.

And then of course there is the long English literary tradition of 'Mummerset' accents (an exaggerated ?Somerset accent for theatrical use) to render rustic folk. Not a terribly respectful tradition, and one that has resulted in some class snobbery about west-country accents. But it's an obvious trope for Tolkien to use to communicate an honest and uprightbut slightly comical and slow-witted rusticity. For the same reasons, Tolkien makes his criminal but stupid Trolls speak 'mockney' in The Hobbit.

That doesn't disprove Barnett's tale about Tolkien enjoying Kentucky yarns, of course.

But I don't think we have to conclude there's an American source for hobbit names or hobbit-talk when there are such easily available ones closer to Tolkien's home and culture.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 12:28pm


Views: 19073
Balrogs' wings, I think

I think this is (yet another) place where different theories are all perfectly plausible, and there is no way to adjudicate.

So it's like that prank they used to play on each new Dwarf down the mine - viz. show them two shovels and say "take your pick!"

The Shire as an especially delightful habitat bound to attract hobbits (or to which hobbits are quietly induced to go by Powers, knowing they would stay)? That's an idea that could easily appear in The Quest of Erebor (UT). There, it seems like everything is part of Eru's grand plan for coutering Sauron. For example, by getting the Ring secretly to some place far from Mordor where nobody would expect it to be (and into the hands of someone who probably wouldn't become a murderer or meglomaniac because of keeping it awhile).

Or, if one feels that hobbits are a folk of lowland farmland, then of course they like The Shire. But they might equally like any of the other places there could be in Middle-earth that were (or could be made into) such habitat.


Take your shovel ...I mean, your pick!

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 1:45pm


Views: 18936
Gondor, converse of The Shire

I'm thinking about one of several contrasts one could go for:


The Shire hobbits are complacently sure of their little place in the world. They don't fear for the future because of the assumption that nothing need change (most hobbits) or that change can surely be controlled and regulated for one's own benefit (Lotho). They don't understand or worry about the things on which the continuation of their lifestyle depends, how easily it could change, or how their own culture could feed into a collapse.

Gondor, on the other hand is very aware of its past and present place in the world order. It's very aware of its own decline, and the growing menace of its rival in world politics, Mordor.


Both cultures can be a source of strength and rootedness (for Frodo, Sam; and for Faramir). But Gondor (better than the Shire) shows up the catastrophic results of trying to fix things the wrong way (Denethor's madness; that regrettable deal with Sauron about 9 Rings, those attempts to push longevity beyond what is natural by other means; Gondorian ethno-chauvanism leading to the kin-strife).

It probably means nothing, but...
... if Tolkien had been a programmatic writer (which he wasn't) ....and if he had been wanting to portray different sides of the British character (which I don't think he did)...
..If all that, then The Shire would do for Honest Rustic Simplicity, and Gondor would do for proud, militiristic maritime empire, getting (by the time of Tolkien's birth) into a funk about its real or imagined decline into decadance and the liklihood of a coming Big War.

Along with reading it for the bit about rural idyll, I've been enoying reading 'Little Englanders' for the bit about the Edwardian genre of Invasion Scare stories -- a genre whcih tracked this bit of period paranoia. As seems so often the case, parody is a good way of explaining succinctly what ideas the genre contained (parodists have a helpful way of saying the quiet bit -- whispered or dog-whistled in the 'serious' literature-- out loud, and especially loudly):


Quote
“It fell to P. G. Wodehouse to satirise the genre. In The Swoop (1909) the Germans land in Essex on the same day that, coincidentally, several other countries–from Russia to Monaco–also invade Britain. None of them meets with any resistance because the British army has been abolished by a socialist government in the name of equality: ‘They demanded that every man in the army should be a general.’ The consequence is instant capitulation. ‘England was not merely beneath the heel of the invader. It was beneath the heels of nine invaders. There was barely standing-room.’
Happily, one power remains capable of resisting this occupation. The Boy Scouts are still a force to be reckoned with, especially with the rapid promotion to chief Scout of fourteen-year-old Clarence Chugwater. Learning that the German and Russian generals have been employed as freak turns to tell their stories on the music-hall stage, he sparks professional jealousy between them, splitting their alliance. In any event, the foreign troops are growing restless, unable to cope with either the attitude of the conquered–‘the cold, contemptuous, patronising gaze of the Englishman’–or the weather: ‘The late English summer had set in with all its usual severity, and the Cossacks, reared in the kindlier climate of Siberia, were feeling it terribly.’
The result is a huge, mutually destructive battle between the occupiers, fought on Hampstead Heath ‘in the densest, yellowest London particular [i.e. a thick smog - NoWiz] that had been experienced for years’. Those who survive are easy prey for the Boy Scouts, armed with hockey sticks and catapults. ‘I am England,’ Clarence declaims to the German general, in triumph. ‘I am the Chief Scout, and the Scouts are England. Prince Otto, you thought this England of ours lay prone and helpless. You were wrong.’”

— Little Englanders: Britain in the Edwardian Era by Alwyn Turner


'Chugwater' - sounds hobbity to me? Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1, 4:09pm


Views: 18741
Marcho to Blanco: "I think we're meant to live here. Start unpacking."

   
Some good things are just meant to happen. *sigh*




CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1, 4:22pm


Views: 18706
Leaping ahead: complacency vs awareness/vigilance

I hope those Boy Scouts also peppered the enemy with a hail of stones shot from homemade sliingshots, which is my chief memory of childhood Boy Scout tricks. Slingshots seemed miraculous to a 5-year-old; I'm sure you could take down Smaug with one.

But it struck me on reading your post, even though I'm jumping too far ahead, that the Shire's enviable complacency was their Achilles' Heel since they had so social or political mechanism for preventing Lotho & the ruffians' rise to power, and arguably they had no effective resistance until Frodo & Co returned (just ask Fredegar Bolger how the resistance went for him).

That's not a criticism of Shire culture, and I think Tolkien's larger point was that nearly every good place was beset by evil whether vigilant or not, from Lorien to Bree to Mirkwood to Dale, and the Shire faced its own version of evil, lumped in with Gondor and the rest. And post-ruffians, the hobbits went back to complacency and didn't become a militarized, hyper-vigilant society, which speaks to the resilient pacifism and de-centralized DNA of their culture. All that is jumping ahead, but it seemed in context at the moment.


Silvered-glass
Lorien

May 1, 4:55pm


Views: 18655
Distance to the Shire

The Shire always was somewhat an alien place to me. It's not only the underground-dwelling little people that impart a degree of strangeness, but also things like the pipe-smoking and the handwritten letters that are such integral parts of the Shire culture. Edwardian England is a very specific place in space and time, and that place is constantly getting more distant. Soon Tolkien's intended literary effect of easing the reader into the fantasy realm will no longer be functional, and I would argue that this is already the case for some people.

Perhaps it is this degree of detachment that I have that allows me to consider options outside of the mainstream, such as the possibility of express trains truly being known in Middle-earth.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 5:03pm


Views: 18641
Wait, is that Kentucky? :)

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 5:07pm


Views: 4074
very much how I see it


In Reply To
the Shire's enviable complacency was their Achilles' Heel since they had so social or political mechanism for preventing Lotho & the ruffians' rise to power, and arguably they had no effective resistance until Frodo & Co returned (just ask Fredegar Bolger how the resistance went for him).


That's very much how I see it. It is not that the Shire simply had the bad luck to be overwhelmed by irresistable force and there was nothing anyone could do. The comparative ease and bloodlessness of Frodo's counter-revolution suggests the opposite.

It is that several features of Shire culture made the fall fairly easy. Along with complancency and ignorance of the outside world. I'd argue there were habits of respect for authority and group solidarity. I don't mean to argue that those are necessarly bad things. But they were kept up after The Wrong Baggins was in charge and the leadership was headed for disaster and no longer deserved those respects.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 5:30pm


Views: 4049
Never said better?

I found some lovely stuff from 'Never Felt better' an Irish blogger who has written much interesting critique of Tolkien:


Quote

If there is one thing I love about the Shire chapters, more so those at the beginning rather than the end of the book, is that though its characters are all, essentially, little people with hairy feet, Tolkien creates a very viable and believable countryside environment. Anyone from, or who has spent time in, a rural area, will recognise the common traits here: a seemingly peaceful, easy-going populace, tightly interconnected by family and marriage with their own deeply held opinions of specific branches and nearby locations, no government of any consequence, literacy not even being all that required (Hamfast Gamgee notes that his son being “learned his letters” – which, in itself indicates the difficulty some in this society have with grammar – as an exceptional thing, though there are plenty of mentions of writing later). Magic and creatures from outside the borders are the subject of scepticism and suspicion. It is a populace who mark their lives by simple social gatherings and the like, and where the local pub is the usual place for discussion and debate of everything going on in the world. The Shire is both an agrarian anarchy and a libertarian fantasy, where people get by without much in the way of top down control, work hard and seem happy with their lot, with nary a sign of any serious social problems. Tolkien will keep this up in a lot of other locations: homelessness, serious poverty or class differences will never be a large part of the make-up in places like Bree, Edoras or Minis Tirith. There will be a stratification in those societies, but it’ll be rare that it is outlined in a really negative fashion: when the Gaffer tells his son “Don’t go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you’ll land in trouble too big for you”, it doesn’t seem as if he is putting a derogatory meaning behind “betters”.


I’ve mentioned it already, but I’ll do it again (sort of): the gossipy scenes in the pub (more in the next chapter) are a really good representation of country life, at least from my experience (my Mother’s family being from North Clare) where family history (a term often used to disguise basic gossip, which hobbits “have a passion for“) is a crucial topic, the oldest are treated as experts on nearly all things (namely Hamfast Gamgee here, holding forth), rumour and intrigue are rife, and outsiders are frequently despised and ignored (Tolkien, in a sign that he recognised the flaws in this kind of environment could sometimes write harshly of such things, describing the hobbits’ mindset as “a mental myopia that is proud of itself”). Even in the text here, Tolkien writes like a bystander instead of a unattached viewer, dropping references to people and characters, like “old Holman” for example, whenever he can. Places that would be considered down the road in other parts, like Buckland, are far away here, living next to rivers is “unnatural”, actually taking a boat onto one of them is asking for trouble and “decent folk“, like those in Hobbiton, would never dream of doing something so out of the ordinary.

The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: A Long Expected Party


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 5:48pm


Views: 4038
I agree

 

Quote
It's not only the underground-dwelling little people that impart a degree of strangeness, but also things like the pipe-smoking and the handwritten letters that are such integral parts of the Shire culture. Edwardian England is a very specific place in space and time, and that place is constantly getting more distant.


Now, I remember (tobacco) pipe-smokers and hand-written letters clearly. But it increasingly makes me sound like I'm claiming to have been born in Gondollin before its fall. Smile

So I think that you're right - what may have originally have been intended to be reassuringly familiar is becoming ever more exotic.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 1, 6:43pm


Views: 4027
clutural exhibit something-or-another: Grantchester

Warning: I'm on both coffee and cold meds. With enough time I'll connect everything to everything else .... that doesn't run away. Smile

But.
Thinking about other sources of roughly Edwardian rural English Idyll, I remembered The Old Vicarage Grantchester by Rupert Brooke.
The poet writes from Berlin in 1912, missing home. It's the last two lines of the poem that are famous (in some locations and time periods). But I'd forgotten the comically exaggerated slander of other towns and villages around the perfect village of Grantchester - entirely in keeping with what teh good folks of the Ivy Bush in Hobbinton might think of the 'queer folks;' just a day's walk away. It goes along with what might be a serious pean to home (hard to tell, nowadays):


Quote

...
God! I will pack, and take a train,
And get me to England once again!
For England’s the one land, I know,
Where men with Splendid Hearts may go;
And Cambridgeshire, of all England,
The shire for Men who Understand;
And of THAT district I prefer
The lovely hamlet Grantchester.
For Cambridge people rarely smile,
Being urban, squat, and packed with guile;
And Royston men in the far South
Are black and fierce and strange of mouth;
At Over they fling oaths at one,
And worse than oaths at Trumpington,
And Ditton girls are mean and dirty,
And there’s none in Harston under thirty,
And folks in Shelford and those parts
Have twisted lips and twisted hearts,
And Barton men make Cockney rhymes,
And Coton’s full of nameless crimes,
And things are done you’d not believe
At Madingley on Christmas Eve.
Strong men have run for miles and miles,
When one from Cherry Hinton smiles;
Strong men have blanched, and shot their wives,
Rather than send them to St. Ives;
Strong men have cried like babes, bydam,
To hear what happened at Babraham.
But Grantchester! ah, Grantchester!
There’s peace and holy quiet there,
Great clouds along pacific skies,
And men and women with straight eyes,
Lithe children lovelier than a dream,
A bosky wood, a slumbrous stream,
And little kindly winds that creep
Round twilight corners, half asleep.
In Grantchester their skins are white;
They bathe by day, they bathe by night;
The women there do all they ought;
The men observe the Rules of Thought.
They love the Good; they worship Truth;
They laugh uproariously in youth;
(And when they get to feeling old,
They up and shoot themselves, I’m told) ...
Ah God! to see the branches stir
Across the moon at Grantchester!
To smell the thrilling-sweet and rotten
Unforgettable, unforgotten
River-smell, and hear the breeze
Sobbing in the little trees.
Say, do the elm-clumps greatly stand
Still guardians of that holy land?
The chestnuts shade, in reverend dream,
The yet unacademic stream?
Is dawn a secret shy and cold
Anadyomene, silver-gold?
And sunset still a golden sea
From Haslingfield to Madingley?
And after, ere the night is born,
Do hares come out about the corn?
Oh, is the water sweet and cool,
Gentle and brown, above the pool?
And laughs the immortal river still
Under the mill, under the mill?
Say, is there Beauty yet to find?
And Certainty? and Quiet kind?
Deep meadows yet, for to forget
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?The Old Vicarage, Grantchester



They'd fixed the clock -- The Vandals!!!!--by the time I walked there from Cambridge. And my misadventures on the way back in the dark prove I'm not an elf, and are known to old timers here

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1, 7:59pm


Views: 3941
I cropped out the "Welcome to Kentucky" sign, but yes, obviously. //

 


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 1, 11:36pm


Views: 3839
I still send greeting cards. :D And my dad smoked

a pipe during my childhood--until the dentist said something looked like a lesion starting! Luckily he stopped in time. But I remember pipe smoking in general, certainly all through the 60's and probably early 70's at least. A fellow student walked into my dorm room for a visit around 1976 (his freshman and my junior year) and said "do you mind if I smoke a pipe?" (I did. Laugh)

I think letter writing was still pretty common through the 1980's. But the advent of personal computers changed things so suddenly that I think it seems farther into the past than it would have if it had changed more gradually.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 1, 11:41pm


Views: 3836
Rings true to me, based on

my reading; and also by an old pastor of mine, who visited England sometime in the 70's or possibly 80's, and met people who literally hadn't ever gone much over 20 miles from their home village.



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 2, 9:40am


Views: 3787
Ah I see...

...though not very well given the bright light pouring out of that painting!
Is that Destiny, do you think ? Or if it's Hobbits Take Kentucky, maybe the Dwarves have already settled in Los Alamos, and are conducting a weapons test?
Either way, does this explain why the hobbit game of Marcho Blanco has to be played with eyes shut?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 2, 10:06am


Views: 3757
A sense of being with the land

That's important, isn't it.

Just recently (by co-incidence) I was reading this:

Quote
Whatever evaluation we finally make of a stretch of land, however, no matter how profound or accurate, we will find it inadequate. The land retains an identity of its own, still deeper and more subtle than we can know. Our obligation toward it then becomes simple: to approach with an uncalculating mind, with an attitude of regard. To try to sense the range and variety of its expression -its weather and colors and animals. To intend from the beginning to preserve some of the mystery within it as a kind of wisdom to be experienced, not questioned. And to be alert for its openings, for that moment when something sacred reveals itself within the mundane, and you know the land knows you are there.

Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez 1986

There is a lot in Lopez' excellent book about being on the land of the Arctic and having a sense of being with it like that. Being with it rather than just it being made part of human plans (whaling, kudos-garnering expeditions to the arbitratry point of the North Pole, petrochemical extraction, military space...)

I heartily recommend his book both for th ideas and the writing. But for a quick fix, Goodreads has some choice quotes from it.
For a more scary interaction, Wordsworth - freaking out when the land goes a bi Carhadras like, or at leastknows he's there ('her' in the first line of the quote is Nature, btw):

Quote
One evening (surely I was led by her)
I went alone into a Shepherd's Boat,
A Skiff that to a Willow tree was tied
Within a rocky Cave, its usual home.
'Twas by the shores of Patterdale, a Vale
Wherein I was a Stranger, thither come
A School-boy Traveller, at the Holidays.
Forth rambled from the Village Inn alone
No sooner had I sight of this small Skiff,
Discover'd thus by unexpected chance,
Than I unloos'd her tether and embark'd.
The moon was up, the Lake was shining clear
Among the hoary mountains; from the Shore
I push'd, and struck the oars and struck again
In cadence, and my little Boat mov'd on
Even like a Man who walks with stately step
Though bent on speed. It was an act of stealth
And troubled pleasure; not without the voice
Of mountain-echoes did my Boat move on,
Leaving behind her still on either side
Small circles glittering idly in the moon,
Until they melted all into one track
Of sparkling light. A rocky Steep uprose
Above the Cavern of the Willow tree
And now, as suited one who proudly row'd
With his best skill, I fix'd a steady view
Upon the top of that same craggy ridge,
The bound of the horizon, for behind
Was nothing but the stars and the grey sky.
She was an elfin Pinnace; lustily
I dipp'd my oars into the silent Lake,
And, as I rose upon the stroke, my Boat
Went heaving through the water, like a Swan;
When from behind that craggy Steep, till then
The bound of the horizon, a huge Cliff,
As if with voluntary power instinct,
Uprear'd its head. I struck, and struck again
And, growing still in stature, the huge Cliff
Rose up between me and the stars, and still,
With measur'd motion, like a living thing,
Strode after me. With trembling hands I turn'd,
And through the silent water stole my way
Back to the Cavern of the Willow tree.
There, in her mooring-place, I left my Bark,
And, through the meadows homeward went, with grave
And serious thoughts; and after I had seen
That spectacle, for many days, my brain
Work'd with a dim and undetermin'd sense
Of unknown modes of being; in my thoughts
There was a darkness, call it solitude,
Or blank desertion, no familiar shapes
Of hourly objects, images of trees,
Of sea or sky, no colours of green fields;
But huge and mighty Forms that do not live
Like living men mov'd slowly through the mind
By day and were the trouble of my dreams.

Wordsworth - excerpt from The Prelude, Book 1


And with much more hobbity quiet delight than Wordsworthian primal fear, Ross Gay weeding in his garden:


Quote

“75. Bindweed … Delight?

THERE ARE GARDENERS reading this who are likely thinking that if I try to turn bindweed, that most destructive, noxious, invasive, life-destroying plant, into a delight, they will bind me and pour glyphosate down my throat. That might be overstatement. All the same, it is a cloying glass-half-fullness to wrangle bindweed into a delight, though I am going for it, shortly after having spent about twenty minutes pulling it from my newly planted mound of five sweet meat squash—yes, sweet meat; try to say that without smiling—out near the woodpile. Already coming up in that mound is all the buckwheat and clover I planted, which, along with the hopefully soon-to-be-thorough coverage of the sweet meat foliage, might crowd out the bindweed. You are right to observe in me the desire not to live with bindweed, which does not in the least negate or supersede my desire to make living with bindweed, which I do, okay.

I carefully pull the arrowheaded and somewhat reptilian plants from the soil, which if left to grow will quickly find something to ascend by wrapping, or binding, it. There is a lovely feeling to gently pulling the sprouts so that the roots slide unbroken and blanched from the soil, putting them in my pockets (I always have bindweed in my pockets), very careful not to drop any part, which, lore has it, will reroot and strangle your children as they sleep. I do this work, often, on my hands and knees, scanning my garden beds for bindweed, pulling the straw back over here, lifting the leaves of the collards over there. I notice the lettuces are untouched by critters, but the cabbages are getting nibbled. The parsley is starting to get thick. The potatoes need mounding, I notice, sliding a long strand of bindweed from the patch. The beans maybe got washed out from all the rain. And when I pull this sprout, breaking it at the stem, and dig some to get it all out, I notice the worms tunneling through the soil.

And if I think I’m in a hurry, or think I ought to be, and quickly walk by to peek at the beds, the teeny bindweed sprouts will sing out to me. “Stay in the garden! Stay in the garden!” And I often oblige, despite my obligations, getting back on my hands and knees, my thumb and forefinger caressing the emergent things free, all of us rooting around for the light.”

— The Book of Delights by Ross Gay

(Also an excellent book)

The Hobbits have, I think that kind of delight in being with the land. Not in the pure sense of Tom Bombadill who has vague duties if any and lives mostly as a delighted observer when he can. And hobbits are more Entwifely than Entish - they are a foremost a farming culture. But they are far from the other end of things - the land as the conduit and scope of Old Man Willow's power; or Saruman regarding Fangorn as mere lumber and firewood; or Sauron with a polluted hellscape outside his abode, where an English Lord's Palladian gardens would be.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 3, 9:06pm


Views: 3316
I've read about half of it--

my brother got it for me a few years ago.
That quote is exactly how I feel about "nature" (for lack of a better term).

Thank you for the reminder--I need to dig it out and finish it!

"With measur'd motion, like a living thing,
Strode after me."
I've had that experience in the Rockies--during the day, though, when the majestic is more present than the fearfulness. But they do, sometimes, appear to march.




(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on May 3, 9:06pm)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


May 3, 9:12pm


Views: 3311
" Few things slow down a fantasy or science fiction story

 to such a turgid mess as an author who insists on too-speedily introducing the minutae of the orignal landscape or culture or language they've had fun inventing."
Ah, yes! That happens frequently, in many other books, but I hadn't thought of the obvious antithesis in Tolkien. Some of it was probably not deliberate in LOTR, with the initial idea of more of a Hobbit sequel, plus "this tail grew in the telling." But it works beautifully.



Felagund
Rohan


Sun, 5:55pm


Views: 237
great thread and some belated thoughts!

I’m very late to this Expected and very well-organised Party but I still wanted to say what an awesome thread this has been to read. Excellently framed and curated, CuriousG; and superb setting of the wheels in motion, Ethel.

The threads within the thread are so wide-ranging and impressive that I don’t have much of substance to add, beyond saluting all those who’ve posted. Inspired by what I’ve read from others, there are a handful of things I want to touch on, whilst trying to keep the duplication to a minimum.

the land maketh the Hobbit or the Hobbit maketh the land?

I loved this theme within the thread and I reckon I agree with those who more or less arrive at ‘it’s a bit of both’, with the process playing an undeniable and massive role in shaping Hobbit culture in the Shire, lest we forget the contemporaneous ‘Bree-hobbits’, as they’re called in the ‘Prologue’ to LotR. The discussion on this did get me thinking about the “three somewhat different breeds” of Hobbit introduced in the Prologue, the Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides, and whether there was a particular ‘mingling’ of these ‘breeds’ that went hand in hand with the settling of the Shire. The Prologue mentions that there were many Hobbit settlements (“ordered communities”) in Eriador prior to the establishment of the Shire, naming only Bree and the Chetwood, and noting that most of these “had long disappeared and been forgotten in Bilbo’s time”. The Shire is a relative latecomer in this settlement history. Looking back over the descriptors of the three Hobbit strains, we get convenient and simplified associations and affinities that can serve as cultural or proto-cultural signifiers: Harfoots & “highlands and hillsides”; Stoors & “flat lands and riversides”; Fallohides & “trees and of woodlands”. Extrapolating from what we know about the geography of the Shire (otherwise known as me dabbling in a bit of good old clutching at straws…!), what became known as the Shire literally had something for everyone: highlands and hills (the Far Downs, the White Downs, the North Moors, Green-Hill Country etc); trees and woodlands (Bindbole Wood, Woody End etc); and flat lands and riversides (the Marish and much of Eastfarthing).

Bree and the Chetwood obviously worked for many Hobbits. And in Frodo’s day, Bree-land is described as a “small country of fields and tame woodland”, which sounds very Hobbit-friendly as a landscape. But Marcho and Blanco, “the Fallohide brothers”, stereotypically exercising that Fallohide cultural trait of being “somewhat more bold and adventurous” than the other types of Hobbit, are still able to inspire and lead a successful new colonial enterprise. The appeal and secret to their success? The land they have in mind can cater to all tastes. Or rather every type of Hobbit taste. No wonder, perhaps, that the Prologue often borders on the idyllic and downright pleasantly convenient, when it comes to explaining the ‘how’ of the Shire!

the Shire and Bree: two sides of the same rare coin?

Does what we know about the founding of the Shire and development of its culture constitute something unique within Hobbitdom? Up to a point. As before, ‘it’s a bit of both’ for me. It’s certainly different to how the Bree-hobbits live, in that they live and mix with humans, and by the time of the War of the Ring, it’s outlived, as far as we know, any other standalone Hobbit settlements that may have existed. However, there are other things about the Shire that point to enduring, shared culture or perhaps ‘accrued Hobbit habits’ being a better way of putting it. There’s an emphasis on ‘orderliness’ when it comes to how Hobbit settlements are described. Prior to the settling of the Shire, there’s the aforementioned pattern of “ordered communities”, of which Bree is but one. This is possibly reflected in the very businesslike and orderly seeking of permission to settle, by Marcho and Blanco from the then King of Arthedain, Argeleb II. And, of course, if there’s one thing that both Shire and Bree-hobbits share in common it’s their love of pipeweed. And gossip, come to think of it. And singing in pubs.

The Prologue is largely about Hobbits of the Shire – hardly surprising, given its Red Book antecedents. The Bree-hobbits come into it a bit but largely only to give context to Shire material. So, what can we say about them and their culture, if anything very much? Two chapters, ‘Fog on the Barrow-downs’ and ‘At the Sign of the Prancing Pony’, provide snippets about the Bree-hobbits and the emphasis in the telling is an interesting contrast. Frodo, almost in sight of Bree-hill, makes the following remark:


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It [Bree] may be all that we could wish… but it is outside the Shire all the same.”


So, we’re straight into ‘we’re different and will be seen as different’, even though the conversation leading up to Frodo’s assessment is about what Bree has in common with the Shire: Hobbits. This is developed further in a kind of mini-prologue, if you like, to the ‘At the Sign of the Prancing Pony’, where the Shire-centric narration divides the world of Hobbitry into ‘Inside’ and ‘Outside’, with the Insiders of the Shire Hobbits looking down on the Outsider Bree-hobbits (“considering them dull and uncouth”). To be fair, Butterbur, in a slip of the tongue, calls his unexpected guests from the Shire ‘Outsiders’ too!

The other theme that comes through for me is that while the Prologue goes into detail about how the Hobbits of the Shire interact with, and within, their particular bit of Middle-earth real estate, these Bree-land scenes are about people mixing. Yes, there’s a short reference to the geography of Bree-land but the focus is on interaction between Little Folk and Big Folk. They were:


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on friendly terms, minding their own affairs in their own way, but both rightly regarding themselves as necessary parts of the Bree-folk.”


The Prologue gives us how everything nearly fits together within the Shire. While Bree-land potentially comes across as ‘messier’ in this chapter ('At the Sign of the Prancing Pony'), it's no less functional - even if the pressures of the war are beginning to be felt. And the symbiosis, which I reckon many of us would agree is an essential part of how we understand Hobbits and the Shire, is, for ‘Bree-folk’ centred on the people as much as the place, if not more so.

And to finish off this section, I’ll posit this: we could argue here that as there’s nothing left of the older Hobbit settlements in Eriador to help us understand what a ‘typical’ or ‘model’ Hobbit settlement and culture looked like, then is there intrinsic value in judging the uniqueness or otherwise of the Shire? Or to strain that thought a fraction more: yes, the Shire is unique but so too are the Bree-hobbits. Indeed, as observed by Roverandom, the special case of Bree is explicitly acknowledged in the opening to the chapter ‘At the Sign of the Prancing Pony’, with reference to the mixed nature of Bree-land: “Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found.”

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CuriousG
Half-elven


Sun, 7:11pm


Views: 218
Gem of an observation

I dub the Rdg Room both a fusion reaction & a fission reactor as we boldly fuse & split atoms to create new elements--so much fun! (Yeah, it's a chemistry metaphor, so it won't work for everyone.)

Anyway, nice fusing of ideas here to get to a new observation:

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But Marcho and Blanco, “the Fallohide brothers”, stereotypically exercising that Fallohide cultural trait of being “somewhat more bold and adventurous” than the other types of Hobbit, are still able to inspire and lead a successful new colonial enterprise. The appeal and secret to their success? The land they have in mind can cater to all tastes. Or rather every type of Hobbit taste. No wonder, perhaps, that the Prologue often borders on the idyllic and downright pleasantly convenient, when it comes to explaining the ‘how’ of the Shire!

So Marcho & Blanco found the land that checked off all the boxes on the hobbits' "Want" list, and voilà, we have the idyllic Shire, which is idyllic because it pleases them all, and which becomes more idyllic because their main cultural ambitions are to preserve and enjoy it.


Bree-land:

I think you brought up the Bree connection at the right time in our hobbit discussion, Felagund, because Bree can give us a lens on the Shire as well as a lens on hobbit commonalities seen in both places--they have much more in common than they have differences, except that Bree-hobbits co-exist comfortably with Men, whereas Shire-hobbits tolerate them but see them as foreign (all men, not just ruffians). It seems to me that there is an imperative in world-building that Tolkien first needed to give us a pure-hobbit land of the Shire so we could understand hobbits and what makes them tick, and once we mastered that lesson, we were ready for Bree with its Men-hobbit mix. And that peaceful coexistence seems plausible to us readers because hobbits value peace and order and, for the most part, getting along with their neighbors, so it feels organic to encounter this more complex society.


Last, I'll say that as a hobbity person who values peace & order over conflict, I connected quite happily with this line from Tolkien on my first read in my early teens as it sets the ethos for his whole story as a preference for pluralism and tolerance:

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“Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found.”




Felagund
Rohan


Sun, 7:51pm


Views: 210
fun with borders

Takes me back to a thread you got going back in 2021 that started off with 'Did Farmer Maggot ever met Aragorn?' and which then got into lots of chat about Sarn Ford and where the Shire's southern border lay :)

It's here, for old time's sake!

And it's a shame that Tolkien didn't complete a full map of the Shire. The one we have misses out the home of Longbottom Leaf (Southfarthing - there's only an arrow pointing off page) and the North Moors (Northfarthing), past which Sam's cousin Hal swore he saw a Tree-man!

I like Karen Wynn Fonstad's map of the Shire but even she had to make do with assumptions when it came to the northern, southern and western borders.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk